Loading summary

Transcript58 lines

[00:00]
A
Who teaches you shapes how you'll pastor and at Southern Seminary, you'll be taught by faculty who have written books, led in churches, and trained thousands of ministers to serve with both conviction and clarity. These faculty members at Southern Seminary are pastors and missionaries and counselors who take your calling as seriously as you do, and they'll form you to strengthen the church for a lifetime of ministry. It's an education that can be trusted for truth. You can prepare for your calling@sbts.edu mdiv. What you believe about God shapes how you'll walk through pain. Moody Publishers is delighted to share a new book for you from my friend Pastor H.B. charles, titled Psalms of Living With Confidence in God at All Times. This book draws on a lifetime that HB has from pastoral ministry that leads you through 10 Psalms that have carried different believers through grief, anxiety and seasons of waiting. I'd recommend that you get your copy today@moodypublishers.com and search Psalms of Trust Are you and Am I a cessationist? In this episode, I want to answer the question, or at least begin to answer the question. Are there apostles and prophets today? Someone might be asking, as I have, what about the gifts mentioned in Romans 12? What about First Corinthians 14? What about what Paul says to the Thessalonian Church? And in fact, I think it's possible to grow up in a cessationist environment in and know more about what the Holy Spirit doesn't do than what he does do. Right? So let me just dive in.
[01:38]
B
Miss me?
[01:38]
A
I did miss you. Welcome back. We had Scott Ardavanis on the POD for the last few weeks.
[01:42]
B
Did a phenomenal job.
[01:43]
A
Come on the Big Poppy. But great to have you back. So recently I've been seeing some things pop up about a woman named Catherine Crick. She claims to be an apostle. She says that she has received an anointing from the Holy Spirit. Her bio on Amazon says zero seminaries, no theology degree, just gifts flowing through an ordinary vessel that said yes to God's calling. She is 35 years old. She has hundreds of thousands of followers. She goes around, I think she says she has hundreds of documented healings. And yeah, she identifies as Apostle Katherine Crick. And now she has appointed, just recently appointed and anointed eight of her spiritual sons in the faith to the office of Apostle. Now in this episode, I want to answer the question, or at least begin to answer the question, are there apostles and prophets today? And I want to acknowledge, at least initially that to answer that question Effectively or convictionally, from my perspective. I also need to answer a cross pollinating question, which would be are you and am I a cessationist? So here's what I want to do. I want to provide some definition to some terms that everyone may be familiar with, that being cessationist, charismatic and continuationist. Then I want to go back to the Old Testament and look at the three predominant criteria for a prophet. Then I want to look to the New Testament and look at the three criteria for an apostle. And then we'll kind of make that conclusion of whether or not there are apostles and prophets today. But anything before we dive in?
[03:18]
B
No, I think that's super helpful. I'm looking forward to the conversation. I also think it's probably worth just calling out explicitly that this is not like some kind of hobby horse conversation, but rather it is one I've seen personally. You get asked a lot. I've been asked this question personally, so I can't even imagine how many times you've been asked. And so it's, I think it's helpful to maybe provide a little bit of clarity, for sure.
[03:39]
A
So let me just dive in and let me give some, maybe just some definition to the terminology that's often employed. What is a cessationist? A cessationist is, and here's a definition. They believe that the gifts of apostles and prophets were given for a specific time in a specific age, and they ceased at the conclusion of the apostolic era. So they believe, cessationists believe that the signs that the apostles performed were the validation that they truly did speak on behalf of Jesus Christ. A charismatic would be someone that is known for their belief that the miraculous and revelatory gifts described in the New Testament are still in operation today and therefore should be sought by contemporary Christians. This is sometimes closely related, but I want to provide some delineation to that of a continuationist. A continuationist believe much of the same, that there is a continuation of the miraculous gifts. The gift of prophecy and the gift of tongues and the gifts of healing are still in effect according to a continuationist. Now I say that and I want to be really fair. So I, I would hate to not sound fair. I want to be. I want to qualify some things. Not all, not all those who identify as continuationists would identify with the label charismatic. For instance, John Piper, Bob Coughlin, who would say they're open or Bob Coughlin, I think, identifies as a continuationist. And so does Wayne Grudem. Bob Coughlin, who I love and respect, and he is a godly man. He says this. The term charismatic has sometimes been associated with doctrinal error, unsubstantiated claims of healing, financial impropriety, outlandish and unfulfilled predictions, an overemphasis on the speech gifts, and some regrettable hairstyles. That's why I have started to identify myself more often as a continuationist rather than a charismatic. So there is most definitely a broad range on the continuationist spectrum. And I think there is also on the cessationist spectrum, which I'll talk about in a moment. Moment. There is a world of difference between a godly man like John Piper and Bob Coughlin and Kenneth Copeland. Bob and John are godly men that I respect, and they've shaped my life. Kenneth Copeland is a madman. Hide your kids, hide your wife, and hide your wallet, Right? So if you're asking, Johnny, are you a cessationist? I would say, well, I don't like the label. But, yeah, largely, yes, I believe that the apostolic gifts were for the apostolic age. But in the same way that I believe that there is a spectrum on the, you know, a broad range on the spectrum of continuationists, there might also be on the spectrum of cessationism. So I believe that the gifts that the apostles wielded were to validate the authenticity of their apostolic ministry. But as I mentioned, I don't like the word cessationism because it has negative connotations. And sometimes people can begin to define their theology, the Holy Spirit, by what they believe that the Holy Spirit doesn't do. And in fact, I think it's possible to grow up in a cessationist environment and know more about what the Holy Spirit doesn't do than what he does do. Right. So I would want to start there and go, I believe that the Holy Spirit is mighty and active and at work today. He changes hearts. Ephesians says he's the seal of our inheritance, that he's the inspirer of the Word of God, that he's the illuminator of the Word of God. He produces fruit in our life. He provides spiritual gifts. Jesus says that he is our comforter and he is the only source of power that we have in the Christian life. And my friend Eric Thomas always used to say that we can't live a single moment of faithfulness to Jesus Christ outside of the power of His Spirit. So, yes, I believe that the apostolic gifts were for the apostolic age. But I also don't believe that or think that I perfectly align with someone that says the Holy Spirit would never do X, Y, Z today. Right. And I think this is sometimes the indictment on cessationists. You know, like, they believe that God, you know, the Holy Spirit has retired. And I don't know anybody that personally believes that, but I think practically it may look that way. And people say it's more akin to stoic orthodoxy and things like that. So that would be the knock.
[07:44]
B
And people would go as far as to say, I think unfairly, like, the Holy Spirit actually cannot no longer do any of these miraculous things.
[07:52]
A
Flat out doesn't do that.
[07:53]
B
And to your point, I think as we develop friendship, it was actually interesting to hear you've had personal experiences that would maybe cause or fall outside of that understanding, even on the mission field, overseas.
[08:05]
A
Sure, yeah. And I mean, I believe that I can lay my hands on someone and God can heal them through my prayer. Right. Or like, God can use that means. I believe I do that on a regular basis in the sense of, like, when someone is sick. Even last month there was someone in the green room and a couple of the elders, we lay hands on them and pray for them. I believe that God can use that to heal that individual. You know, even one time, I told you before that there was a boy that came up to me and when I was preaching in an Islamic environment in another country, and he was angry at us because we were Christians, and he says he hates Christians. And then he says the next morning he grabs me and says, God came to me in a dream last night, and whatever you say tonight, I need to listen. And that guy gave his life to the Lord and has walked with the Lord ever since then. So I know that there are cessationists that literally told me that didn't happen. He never had the dream. And I go, well, I mean, I think he did. I believe that a missionary could go to another environment, to another people group, and preach the gospel in a language that he has never learned. I believe the Holy Spirit could do that. I mean, absolutely. I just don't believe. First of all, I don't believe that that would be the gift of tongues as we see in the scripture, because they were speaking in their native tongue. But the Holy Spirit can do, and I would want anybody to hear me say this clearly, can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. And I don't like the label. He doesn't do this anymore. But if you're. Again, if we're defining cessationism as the apostolic gifts or for the apostolic age, I would say that is true.
[09:34]
B
And maybe for the cessationist camp, it's good to not to be careful of, not to too flippantly put God in a box, so to speak. And then on the flip side to the continuationist, I think it would be fair to say that boy may absolutely have had that dream. But also if someone walks up to you today and says, hey, I had a dream xyz, there's a degree of maybe healthy skepticism or discerning ears that you're going to be listening to, you
[09:58]
A
could meet that with a level of suspicion for sure. Because I don't think, and this is the idea, I don't think that God normatively works through that environment in an age where we have the word of God. But I believe that just by providing that definition, a cessationist is someone that believes that the apostolic gifts were for the apostolic age. A continuationist believe that those gifts are at work today. And again, I want to be fair here. Not all continuationists are the same. There's what I think they're referred to as reformed continuationists, like a Wayne Grudem, a very respected biblical scholar who would be a lot different than a Benny Hinn. So let's talk about the office of prophet for a moment. What is the criteria for a prophet? This episode is brought to you by one of our ministry partners, the Masters University. One of the things I love about TMU is their commitment to Christ and scripture. And not only that, they offer 150 different fields of study, all that are established upon a biblical worldview. This is so important, regardless of the field of study you may be going into. They offer engineering, elementary education, music, business. Some of you may know that I studied actually accounting and finance, and I'm so thankful for where I'm at today. But I was so grateful to learn finance, business, accounting from a biblical perspective. I would encourage you to check out the Masters University by visiting Masters Edu. And when you do, you can even look at our own Dial in page. If you go to Masters Edu, Dial in and see if this would be a good fit for you. And if you use our code Dial in, that'll waive the application fee for you if you're a student or for the student in your life looking to pursue higher education. Sam Storms, who is a continuationist, would say that prophecy is the human report of divine revelation. That's what prophecy is. And continuationists largely believe that even if the Office Capital P Prophet is not active today, the gift of prophecy is active today. Prophecy is divine revelation. So when someone says that they are exercising the gift of prophecy. They are claiming to be wielding the very words of God. You know, they're a spokesperson. Now, biblically, there is a criteria for a prophet. And again, not all continuationists believe that the office of prophet is for today. Which would differ than from, like, a Pentecostal Christian or those who identify in the NAR movement, who believe that God has awakened and restored the office of prophet and apostle for today. Sometimes people throw in the Bethel movement as a part of this, but Bethel says they're not nar. But Bill Johnson would say he accepts the label apostle even though he doesn't make people call him an apostle. He says it makes him uncomfortable. But, okay, if you want to call me an apostle, I am he. He identifies as a senior leader. So let's talk about the criteria for a prophet in the Old Testament. Three main ones. First of all, their prophecies always had to come true. Deuteronomy 18, God says, the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die. So if you say things that you're speaking on behalf of God about what's going to come to pass, and it doesn't come to pass, you shall die. When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken, the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You shall not be afraid of him. So one of the initial criteria to qualify someone as a prophet is, does what he says come true?
[13:09]
B
Says, does what he say end up happening?
[13:13]
A
And God says, if it doesn't, he's
[13:15]
B
no, he is not a prophet.
[13:16]
A
Yeah, and stone him. You know, Jeremiah 28:9, the true prophet is the one whose prediction comes true. Now, what's interesting is that you have those in the charismatic camp that talk about the gift of prophecy. So Rick Joyner, a prominent charismatic leader, who would say that certain prophets, he says some are only about 10% accurate. A very few of the most mature prophets are approaching 85 to 95% accuracy. He says prophecy is increasing in purity, but there is still a long way to go for those who walk in this ministry. That's Rick Joyner. So how does he reconcile this with Deuteronomy 18? Well, he doesn't. He says it's the wrong interpretation of Deuteronomy 18. So. But that's hard to believe with just the reading of the text. Joyner says, again, no one would ever be able. No prophet, no prophet who has that gift from God could ever step out in faith required to walk in his calling if he knew that a single mistake would ruin him for life. But God says, listen, if he says something that God says is gonna happen, it doesn't happen. Then, you know, he's not speaking for me. Jack Dear, who was a professor at Dallas Seminary and then heard the teaching of the charismatic leader John Wimber and then pastored a Vineyard church, he says this. Prophets are really messy. Prophets make mistakes. And sometimes when a prophet makes a mistake, it's a serious mistake. I mean, he says, I know prophets just last year that cost people millions of dollars with a mistake they made. I talked to people who made the wrong investments, actually move their homes, spent tons of money. So they would say, hey, prophets are messy. They can be wrong. But biblically speaking, no. You knew it was a true prophet if their prophecies came true. So this is in contrast to Benny Hinn saying that I think in the 90s that God was going to destroy all of the homosexuals or other Kansas City prophets that said that Southern California was going to sink into the heart of the Pacific Ocean. It never happened. Right. So that would be the first one. Do their prophecies come true?
[15:02]
B
Tough. I'll keep going.
[15:03]
A
Secondly, they had to be known as a man of moral integrity. They had to be a godly individual. So this is an obvious one. It's like a qualification of a pastor. You look at their character. It's not just what they do, it's not just what they say externally, but who they are internally.
[15:16]
B
So in many ways, that seems like one of the most important differentiations. Yeah. For looking out at the world we see today and people who would self pronounce themselves as prophets.
[15:24]
A
100%. 100%. So do the prophecies come true? Are they a man of integrity? And then third, is there a level of doctrinal fidelity? Are they faithful to what God has already plainly revealed in the revelation of his word? Deuteronomy 13, God says through Moses, if a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, and then he says to you, let us go after other gods whom you have not known, and let us serve them. And you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or the dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart. And with all your soul you shall follow the Lord your God and fear him, and you shall keep his commandments, listen to his voice, serve him and cling to him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death. So God is saying here, listen, if a prophet ever arises and he wields signs and wonders, but he says something contrary to what God has already revealed in his Word, you're to do what? You're gonna put him to death. Right. Why? Because it is a very serious thing to claim to speak to God and to lead people away from his truth. Now, the question might be, you know, you might be having in your mind is, well, maybe this gift, the gift of prophecy now is different from the gift of prophecy then and the prophetic office then, right? The prophets in the Old Testament would say, thus says the Lord. But what we find in the New Testament is that the New Testament states the exact opposite, that there's this distinction. The same standards are applied to a New Testament prophet as to an Old Testament prophet. Sam Waldron says this. He says if New Testament prophecy and distinction from Old Testament prophecy was not infallible in its pronouncements, this would have constituted an absolutely fundamental contrast between the Old Testament institution and the New Testament institution. To suppose that a difference as important as this would be passed over without explicit comment is unthinkable. So nowhere in the Bible is there, and I'll talk about maybe the rebuttals you have percolating in your mind in a moment, but nowhere in the Bible is there an explicit distinction between an Old Testament prophet and a New Testament prophet. Nor is there a sub tier of prophets who are not subject to the standard that we have just laid out in regards to prophetic accuracy, moral integrity, and biblical fidelity.
[17:49]
B
And two things worth highlighting there. One, the doctrinal fidelity is actually presupposing a level of familiarity and a sense to which your nose has to be in the Book and you have to be able to judge things. And as God's saying that back in Deuteronomy 13 to his people, he's giving them very black and white signs for them to be comparing these prophetic words to be whether they're from him or not.
[18:13]
A
Because people have to be in the book too, to know whether or not what he's saying is legitimate.
[18:18]
B
And so OT prophecy, NT prophecy, same spirit, same gifting. And so keep building on that then.
[18:25]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think the questions that I would have. Right. Like, and that I've wrestled through, I guess, to be honest, right. Cause I don't think this is like when, you know, there are passages I read and I go, hmm, I'm thinking about this. So someone might be asking, as I have, what about the gifts mentioned in Romans 12? What about 1 Corinthians 14? What about what Paul says to the Thessalonian Church?
[18:46]
B
So I've got Romans 12, 6 here.
[18:48]
A
Should I just read it?
[18:48]
B
Yeah, for everyone's sake. But having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, whether prophecy in agreement with the faith. And he goes on to say, or service in his serving. But he's bringing up prophecy explicitly in Romans 12.
[19:00]
A
And he says, according to the proportion of his faith. One thing there about his faith, it makes it feel like it's on a scale of the strength of the faith of the individual, proclaiming.
[19:07]
B
Like, you'd go from 10% fidelity or accuracy to 90% over time with your sanctification.
[19:12]
A
Yeah, but it's actually. It's definitive. It's according to the faith. Meaning, like, it's according to that. Whatever he's saying must align perfectly with the faith. Jude says, once and for all, hand it down to the saints. So that would be my stance on Romans 12. And again, godly people disagree on that. But I would say, let's go to 1 Thessalonians 5:20, which would be like, okay, 1 Thessalonians 5: 20. Paul says, do not despise prophetic utterances, but examine them carefully. Hold fast to that which is good, and abstain from every form of evil. So if you're reading this verse, and then I just said that the New Testament gift of prophecy was infallible, then why are the Thessalonian believers commanded to test and examine it carefully? And here would be my stance, that this was written at a time when the gift of prophecy was still active in the church today. So I don't think that this is supporting the idea that prophecy could be infallible. It leads me to the opposite conclusion, which would be to test anyone who claims to have a message from God or who claims to speak authoritatively. Because when you say, thus says the Lord, even Agabus, who is often used from a continuationist perspective to maybe promote the idea that prophets could be wrong, he uses that same formula. This is what the Holy Spirit is saying. That's what the formula is for those who are speaking divine revelation. So I don't think that these texts support that there are prophets today in a biblical sense, nor wielding prophecy in the sense of where you can use that divine formula. Thus says the Lord. I think thus says the Lord is a lot different than here's something that God has put on my heart that I think I'm supposed to say to you.
[20:48]
B
That's a huge distinction.
[20:49]
A
It's a huge distinction because when you say thus says the Lord, God has given me a word for you that carries with it a level of authority that I do believe. I've called you certain times, or I've called different friends certain times, and God has put them on my heart and I want to say something to them, but I always want to submit whatever is on my heart to something else supremely authoritative. And I think even Wayne Gruden would say that you cannot say thus says the Lord. You can say, I think this is what the Spirit might be saying, and that would be true.
[21:17]
B
And for someone, incidentally, who might be hearing that and saying like, oh, that's just semantics, I think how important that chasm is of those are small changes in words with huge meaning. Because when you say thus says the Lord, I mean you're adding first art of Annas to the canon as opposed to saying, hey, Johnny, I've been thinking about you and for some reason this keeps coming to mind and I just want to talk to you about it. If there's anything there, there totally.
[21:42]
A
And again, there are. Like, a John Piper is a guy who's preached through the entire Bible. There's nothing that isn't in his ministry that undermines the sufficiency of Scripture. But if so, that would be different than someone that says, no, I have a word for the Lord for you, which even if he would say theologically, he affirms the sufficiency of Scripture. It's a practical undermining of the sufficiency of Scripture because it leaves people in that sort of audience or movement wanting to hear a fresh word rather than what's been revealed in the truth of God's Word once and for all.
[22:09]
B
And that difference is where we started, of someone who's self proclaiming themselves as a prophet or as an apostle. So maybe keep building here. Can we switch to the office of the apostle?
[22:17]
A
There are three criteria for an apostle, just like there are three criteria for a prophet, at least that we're going to focus on. First of all, an apostle was someone that had to witness the resurrected Jesus Christ. That's what you see in Acts 1, that knew the resurrected Jesus Christ. Secondly, they had to be specifically chosen by Jesus. You see that in Acts 1:24, when they go to replace Judas. Show us which of these you have chosen, chosen by Jesus. The third is that the way that that apostleship was validated was through the power that the apostles wielded over all types of disease by the signs and wonders that they performed. So that was the criteria for a prophetic. They witnessed the resurrected Jesus Christ, they were chosen by Jesus and they wielded signs and wonders as the validation of their apostleship. Now I want to talk about that third criteria for a moment because this is largely where that idea of, or this, maybe the disagreement between cessationists and a continuationist would come into play regarding signs and wonders. There are three primary periods in which God worked miracles through his representatives and in human history, primary being the key word, three primary periods where miracles were normative. I would say first would be Moses and Joshua. That's the way God validated Moses. Moses says, if they ask me who sent me, what should I tell them?
[23:40]
B
God.
[23:40]
A
Well, how will they know that you really sent me? And God says, Moses, what's in your hand? Throw it down on the ground. It's a snake. And now you're going to use that to split the Red Sea. You're going to do that to bring plagues and they're going to know that you really are from God because of the signs and wonders that you perform.
[23:56]
B
And key in that is every time he threw his staff down, then it's becoming a snake. Like that's the implication of this is a 100% repeatable reality.
[24:04]
A
Yeah, he wielded that power on behalf of God. The second would be Elijah and Elisha. The second period, Elijah is known for that duel at Mount Carmel where he calls down fire from heaven and defeats the prophets of baal. Epic story.
[24:15]
B
Epic all time story. All time Bible stories.
[24:18]
A
Yeah, all time Bible story. That was his way of showing that I am truly a representative of Yahweh. So Moses and Joshua, Elijah and Elisha. And the third would be Jesus and the apostles. So Jesus says, and I say this often as I've been preaching through John, but the reason why John's Gospel doesn't refer to Jesus miracles as miracles, but rather as signs is because they were significant of who he is and what he claimed to be. Miracles were as abnormal in Jesus day as they would be in our day. That's why they were the authenticating validator that he was from God. Nicodemus comes to him and says, good teacher, we know that you must come from God. Why? Because no one can do the signs that you are doing unless God is with them. So even to a First century Jewish audience. They were like, oh, another miracle guy. They were going, he's from God. He's from God.
[25:07]
B
Just two observations. Maybe just for me, but the first time anyone asked me, what's the difference between an apostle and a disciple? I was, I was. I had been a Christian for a long time and instantly was like, I don't know. I thought they were interchangeable. So it's helpful to know that there's actually like established criteria that differentiate an apostle. And secondly would be. I want to pause and actually, I think that might be new to a bunch of people that the Bible filled with miracles are actually clustering around these three very specific times in period. And that it's so easy for us and like, felt bored Christianity to be like, what are you talking about?
[25:41]
A
The whole thing is miracles.
[25:42]
B
Yeah, miracles are happening all over the place. But it's just how we look back at history. If you were walking around at the same time as Jesus, you would have been floored as if you were walking around in middle Tennessee in 2026 or wherever you might be listening to this for sure.
[25:54]
A
I think Bavinck draws attention to the fact that in 6,000 years of biblical history, there are roughly 200 years where miracles were normative. And yes, there are different miracles kind of scattered and littered throughout the rest of biblical history. But normatively it's three distinct periods. And those periods line up with when God is giving revelation. This person speaks on my behalf. So Jesus, even when he's met by opposition and disbelief from the Pharisees, he says in John 5:36, the very works that I do testify about me. John 10:37, if I do not do the works of my Father, don't believe me. He's saying, if I'm not doing signs and wonders, don't believe me. He says, but if I do them, though, you do not believe me. Believe the works that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father. When Peter preaches at Pentecost and he is trying to convince that one of my favorite words throughout the Book of Acts is that word persuade. They weren't just kind of laying truth on a table, they're trying to make persuasive arguments. He says that this Jesus was proven to be the Christ with signs and wonders, which you have all seen in Hebrews 2. It says after it was at first. This is the message of the Gospel. It says after it. The Gospel was at the first spoken through the Lord. That's Jesus. It was confirmed to us by those who heard. Who's that? That's the apostles. And God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to his own will, that this message, it was spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed by those who heard the apostles. And that message that they then pronounced was validated by signs and wonders and various miracles and by the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 12:12, the signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance by signs and wonders and miracles. So that's the qualifications of an apostle. So that would lead me to believe, of course, there's no apostles today, right? Because you had to witness Jesus, you had to be chosen by Jesus, and you had to wield signs and wonders. But I also want to look at the function of an apostle, which would lead me as well to believe that there are no apostles today. Paul says in Ephesians 2:20 that the church, it says, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone. So when Paul is talking about the church, he says that it is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Now, to say that there are still apostles and prophets today would mean that the church's foundation is still being laid. But Paul says no. Of which you, he says, in whom the whole body being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord. And and then he says, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit, meaning we're the walls. So if the apostles and prophets were the foundation of the church, then I know, I believe that foundation has been laid. Some would say that when it says the apostles and prophets are the foundation, that it's referring to Old Testament prophets. But that wouldn't make sense Contextually with Ephesians 3. 5, which Paul says, he says, which in other generations was not made. That's the mystery of the Gospel was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit. And then some would say, well, the apostles and prophets are conflated into one office. But no, these were two distinct offices, as we see in Ephesians 4:11, Paul says, and he gave some as apostles and some as prophets. That's different. Some as evangelists and some as pastors and some aspects teachers. So biblically speaking, I would say because of the qualifications of an apostle, there are no more apostles. And because of the function of an apostle or a prophet that they speak divine revelation. That function is no longer necessary because we have the word of God. So both the office and the gift, I would say, are no longer in effect.
[29:51]
B
And those are important distinctions. There's a lot of heavy lifting going on in there, but. But maybe while we're still on it, could we speak to. I feel like one that we haven't touched on yet is tongues probably worth
[30:02]
A
its own episode, you know, because I think what you see in the Book of Acts is that they're speaking in their own native language in Acts. And then what's Cornelius. They begin to speak in their native language. But Tom Pennington notes regarding the uses of tongues in the church, Just talking about from a church history perspective. 1 Corinthians, where Paul even mentions other elements of it, was the fourth inspired letter that Paul wrote following Galatians in 1 and 2 Thessalonians. So 1 Corinthians was the fourth letter that he wrote. I think he wrote it, you know, 50, 60ish. Paul would go on to write nine other canonical letters after 1 Corinthians to six different churches. And there is never a mention of the gift of tongues again. Now in the Pastoral epistles, when Paul is writing one and two Timothy and Titus, these are the books that he would write near the conclusion of his ministry that were going to give basically direction to the post apostolic church. There is no mention of spiritual gifts. And I find it really interesting when his son in the faith is sick, he doesn't say, go find Bob the healer. He says, drink a little wine for your stomach. So that's from Paul. And you do see a shift in the New Testament landscape as Paul gets older and the further along you get away from the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Some other notes from church history. John Chrysostom would say that these gifts have largely ceased referring to 1 Corinthians. Augustine, writing in the late 3 hundreds or early 4 hundreds, would say in the earliest times, the Holy Spirit fell upon them that believed and they spoke with tongues which they had not learned as the Spirit gave them utterance. That thing was done for a sign and it is passed away. John Calvin would say, lightning. Lightning rod. No, but Calvin would say, the gift of healing, like the rest of the miracles which the Lord willed to be brought forth at a time. And they have vanished in order to make the preaching of the gospel marvelous forever. Jonathan Edwards says of the extraordinary gifts they were given in order to the founding and establishing of the church in the world. But since the canon of the Scriptures has been completed and the Christian church fully founded and established. These extraordinary gifts have ceased. And then finally, Spurgeon, who's universally kind of loved, he says those earlier miraculous gifts have departed from us. So I believe that both the office and the gift of the apostle and prophets have ceased. But again, I want to come back to what I stated at the beginning. This doesn't mean that I want to put the Holy Spirit in a box. The Holy Spirit should be worshiped. You can pray to the Holy Spirit. I pray every single Sunday before I preach. You hear me, Holy Spirit, you know, open her eyes. That's a prayer that we may behold the wonderful things in your word. So because I don't believe that these gifts specifically of an apostle are at work today, that doesn't mean that I don't believe that God can heal. It doesn't mean that I don't believe that God can use me to cast out a demon. I believe that if you wake me up in the middle of the night, I'm still going to have whatever gifts the Lord has given me, teaching or leadership, I'm going to be able to do that.
[32:49]
B
But you might be a little.
[32:51]
A
Yeah, I might be foggy mentally, but that's a gift that God has given me. God has given you the gift of. I would say of leadership as well. If someone says they have the gift of healing, it shouldn't be dependent upon their audience. That would not be in alignment with the apostolic gift that they weren't healing back pain. They were raising people from the dead. They were making lame people walk. And it wasn't something that was disputed. It was like, hey, that guy's been sitting there for 30 years and now he's walking and leaping and praising God. Those things are different now. Do I believe that God can miraculously heal a lame person today that's been there for 30 years? 100%. I just don't believe because Bob's got the gift, you know, I believe that it's because God answered prayer, and he does that every single day all around the world.
[33:35]
B
And people aren't walking around with the same normative gifting as they were prior. And I just. In a study of Acts for another time. This would be another episode. It's also worth delineating. Even when the apostles are working those gifts, it's often, I feel like, so funny. There'll be like a verse and he raised him up, and then the following chapter and a half will be Peter or John making the gospel made known persuasively, clearly and the amount of sheer ink that's like spent on the time of the proclamation of the Word, it just leads back to, I'm so grateful those gifts were poured out for the substantiation of the Word that we have before us today. And that's hence to again, like, not as a hobby horse, but it's why Scripture is so important and why the study, the reflection, the meditation upon it is just so irreplaceable.
[34:26]
A
Yeah, And I think one of the reasons where, you know, this is one of the gifts, you know, the questions that I get asked, you know, most often at church, and part of the reason why I guess I haven't talked about it that much before, is I would want to reiterate just the amount of respect I have for certain guys that are different than maybe the rest, you know, like, meaning like a guy like Bob or John Piper that do really love the Lord. And I would disagree with him here. I would want to separate those guys from others in the category that claim to be an apostle. And when they talk about their church, there's no preaching of the Word. It's all about anointing, it's all about experience, it's all about casting out demons. But when Paul tells Timothy and Paul's about to die, the instruction Paul gives is preach the Word, wield the word of God, and we can talk in the future about just the sufficiency of scripture and what we have in God's divine revelation. But in our world now, that's the main instruction. It's the main qualification of an elder. Can they teach outside of their character? Can they teach the Bible? Not are they anointed to do some other thing? You know, so I think last thing I'll say is when I was growing up, people that grew up in conservative evangelical circles, I think they swung to the charismatic spectrum because they were longing in an experience. And I think that's a fair longing because the Bible is experienced. You know, our relationship with God should be experiential in the sense of like taste and see that he's good.
[35:51]
B
It's not a set of equations, it's a relationship.
[35:53]
A
It's not just cognitive, it's a real sense. Then I would say in recent years I've had almost zero people ask me about the charismatic church because the average question I get asked from a 1920 year old is not about the Holy Spirit, it's about Eastern Orthodox. So I think that you always have this teeter totter between I want an experience. And then people that go, now I'M in the average evangelical church, and it's like beach balls and lasers, and I want to go back to liturgy, transcendence, beauty. I want to walk into something that looks like it was, that stood the test of time, carved out of stone. I don't want to walk into a warehouse. And so you have this constant pendulum and maybe one thing to talk about in the future.
[36:37]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for providing a little clarity here. I know it's one that's near and dear to your heart, and so I hope sincerely that this is helpful for people.
[36:44]
A
Yeah. Thanks so much, bro.
[36:45]
B
Yeah. Thanks, man.

Summary7 min read

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis

Episode: Are There Still Apostles and Prophets Today? Cessationism vs Continuationism Explained

Host: Jonny Ardavanis

Date: August 4, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode tackles one of the most debated theological questions in the modern church: Are there apostles and prophets today? Jonny Ardavanis (Host, “A”) and his co-host (“B”) break down the conversation around the charismatic and continuationist claims regarding contemporary apostles and prophets, and contrast these positions with cessationism. Digging into Old and New Testament criteria, historic church perspectives, and pastoral concerns, the episode aims to provide clarity, scriptural grounding, and practical wisdom on how Christians should interpret claims of modern-day apostolic and prophetic authority.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining the Terms (03:38)

Cessationism: Holds that the gifts of apostles and prophets ceased at the end of the apostolic era, having served to validate the authority of those speaking on behalf of Christ.
- “I believe that the apostolic gifts were for the apostolic age.” (A, 06:58)
- “Sometimes people can begin to define their theology, the Holy Spirit, by what they believe that the Holy Spirit doesn’t do. And in fact, I think it’s possible to grow up in a cessationist environment and know more about what the Holy Spirit doesn’t do than what he does do.” (A, 05:51)
Charismatic/Continuationist: Believe the miraculous gifts described in the New Testament (prophecy, tongues, healing) continue today.
- Not all continuationists identify as charismatic. Cited examples include John Piper and Wayne Grudem.
- “There is most definitely a broad range on the continuationist spectrum... a world of difference between a godly man like John Piper and Bob Kauflin and Kenneth Copeland.” (A, 04:46)
Spectrum on Both Sides: Both camps have a wide range of beliefs and practices; the debate is nuanced.

2. Personal Experiences and Theological Approach (07:53–09:33)

Jonny acknowledges miraculous experiences (healing, dreams, etc.) and warns against confining the Holy Spirit’s work to rigid boxes, yet keeps these within the framework of biblical norms.
"I believe that the Holy Spirit can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. I just don't like the label: 'He doesn’t do this anymore.'" (A, 08:35)
Healthy skepticism should meet extraordinary claims, but prayerful openness and discernment are essential.

3. What is a Prophet? Biblical Criteria (10:48–17:49)

Three-fold Old Testament Criteria:

(a) Fulfillment of prophecy

“Does what he says come true? ... If it doesn’t, he is not a prophet.” (A, 13:15, 13:16)
Deuteronomy 18 and Jeremiah 28:9 cited.

(b) Moral Integrity

A prophet must demonstrate godly character.
“It’s not just what they do, it’s not just what they say externally, but who they are internally.” (A, 15:02)
Critique: Many self-proclaimed prophets today don’t meet this standard.

(c) Doctrinal Fidelity

Their message must accord with previously revealed scripture.
“If a prophet ... wields signs and wonders, but says something contrary to what God has already revealed in his Word, you’re to do what? You’re gonna put him to death.” (A, 15:24)
Deuteronomy 13 referenced.

New Testament Continuity:

Standards remain the same. No “sub-tier” prophets with lower accuracy or different standards.
“Nowhere in the Bible is there an explicit distinction between an Old Testament prophet and a New Testament prophet.” (A, 16:48)
References Sam Waldron: the office’s infallibility is consistent across testaments.

4. Examining Modern Claims of Prophecy (13:28, 16:08)

Critiqued charismatic notions of error-prone prophecy (citing Rick Joyner, Jack Deere).
The biblical standard for prophets leaves no room for “messy” or frequently wrong prophecy.
“Biblically speaking, no. You knew it was a true prophet if their prophecies came true.” (A, 13:28)

5. Are Prophetic Gifts Active Today? (Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 14, 1 Thessalonians 5) (18:46–21:17)

Romans 12:6 and 1 Thessalonians 5:20 examined.
Jonny's stance: Prophetic references in these letters relate to a time when prophecy was still active; they do not validate present-day office or practice.
“Thus says the Lord is a lot different than 'here’s something that God has put on my heart that I think I’m supposed to say to you.'” (A, 20:47)
Distinguishes between authoritative prophecy (“Thus says the Lord”) and personal spiritual impressions.

6. Apostolic Office: Definition & Criteria (22:16–26:01)

Three Primary Criteria (Acts 1):

Saw the resurrected Christ
“An apostle was someone that had to witness the resurrected Jesus Christ.” (A, 22:20)
Specifically chosen by Jesus
“They had to be specifically chosen by Jesus.” (A, 22:23)
Wielded miraculous signs as validation
“They wielded signs and wonders as the validation of their apostleship.” (A, 22:29)

Three Key Biblical Eras of Miracles:

Moses/Joshua, Elijah/Elisha, Jesus & the Apostles
Miracles clustered around these key periods for the purpose of validating new revelation.
“In 6,000 years of biblical history, there are roughly 200 years where miracles were normative.” (A, 25:53, citing Bavinck)

7. The Role of Apostles and Prophets in the Foundation of the Church (27:28–29:24)

Ephesians 2:20: The church is built upon the foundation laid by apostles and prophets, a foundation already laid.
“To say that there are still apostles and prophets today would mean that the church’s foundation is still being laid. But Paul says no.” (A, 28:08)
Apostles and prophets were distinct offices; their function is not ongoing since Scripture (God’s revelation) is complete.

8. Church History & Cessationism (30:02–32:49)

Patterns in Paul’s writings: Early letters mention gifts like tongues; later letters do not.
Historical witness: Chrysostom, Augustine, Calvin, Edwards, Spurgeon—all affirm cessation of apostolic and prophetic gifts.
“Since the canon of the Scriptures has been completed and the Christian church fully founded and established, these extraordinary gifts have ceased.” (A, quoting Edwards, 31:46)

9. Pastoral Application & Cautions (32:49–36:43)

Distinguishing true spiritual gifts (teaching, leadership) still active versus miraculous sign gifts.
Contemporary claims of healing do not match biblical normativity or evidential standards.
Warns of seeking “fresh words” in lieu of Scripture:
“Even if [someone] would say theologically he affirms the sufficiency of Scripture, it’s a practical undermining... It leaves people... wanting to hear a fresh word rather than what’s been revealed.” (A, 21:41)
The sufficiency, clarity, and authority of Scripture must be upheld. The primary task for church leaders: “Preach the Word, wield the word of God.” (A, 34:25)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On labeling and spectrum:
“There is a world of difference between a godly man like John Piper and Bob Kauflin and Kenneth Copeland. Bob and John are godly men... Kenneth Copeland is a madman. Hide your kids, hide your wife, and hide your wallet, right?” (A, 05:04)
On fallibility in prophecy:
“Rick Joyner ... says that prophecy is increasing in purity, but there is still a long way to go. ... No prophet who has that gift from God could ever step out in faith required to walk in his calling if he knew that a single mistake would ruin him for life.” (A, 13:28)
On contemporary healing:
“They weren’t healing back pain. They were raising people from the dead. They were making lame people walk. ... Those things are different now. Do I believe God can miraculously heal a lame person today...? 100%. I just don’t believe because Bob’s got the gift, you know. I believe that it’s because God answered prayer.” (A, 33:09)
On the sufficiency of Scripture:
“When Paul tells Timothy and Paul’s about to die, the instruction Paul gives is preach the Word, wield the word of God...” (A, 34:25)
On pendulum swings in church experience:
“You always have this teeter totter between ‘I want an experience’ ... and ‘I want to go back to liturgy, transcendence, beauty... I want to walk into something that stood the test of time, carved in stone’...” (A, 36:07)

Important Timestamps

03:38 – Defining cessationism, charismatic, continuationist
08:05 – Personal experience and expectations of the miraculous
10:48 – Criteria for prophetic office (OT and NT)
18:46 – Romans 12, 1 Thessalonians 5 discussion on prophecy
22:16 – Apostolic office: biblical definition and historical function
25:53 – The “three eras” of miracles in salvation history
29:24 – Apostles and prophets as the church’s foundation (Ephesians 2:20)
30:02 – Tongues and sign gifts in church history and the NT
34:25 – Pastoral application: Scripture and the true role of leaders
36:07 – Comment on church experience and pendulum swings

Takeaways

Biblical offices of prophet and apostle required criteria no living individual can meet today.
Gifts of prophecy and apostleship, along with sign gifts, functioned primarily as God authenticated new revelation and the Church’s foundation.
The sufficiency and authority of Scripture is paramount; claims of present-day apostles or prophets undermine this foundation.
Jonny cautions against defining the Holy Spirit merely by what He doesn't do, stressing openness to God’s power, but always in submission to biblical norms.
The importance of distinguishing historical, normative phenomena from present-day spiritual experience is key for healthy church life and doctrine.

Summary by AI Podcast Summarizer

Loading summary

Transcript58 lines

[00:00]
A
Who teaches you shapes how you'll pastor and at Southern Seminary, you'll be taught by faculty who have written books, led in churches, and trained thousands of ministers to serve with both conviction and clarity. These faculty members at Southern Seminary are pastors and missionaries and counselors who take your calling as seriously as you do, and they'll form you to strengthen the church for a lifetime of ministry. It's an education that can be trusted for truth. You can prepare for your calling@sbts.edu mdiv. What you believe about God shapes how you'll walk through pain. Moody Publishers is delighted to share a new book for you from my friend Pastor H.B. charles, titled Psalms of Living With Confidence in God at All Times. This book draws on a lifetime that HB has from pastoral ministry that leads you through 10 Psalms that have carried different believers through grief, anxiety and seasons of waiting. I'd recommend that you get your copy today@moodypublishers.com and search Psalms of Trust Are you and Am I a cessationist? In this episode, I want to answer the question, or at least begin to answer the question. Are there apostles and prophets today? Someone might be asking, as I have, what about the gifts mentioned in Romans 12? What about First Corinthians 14? What about what Paul says to the Thessalonian Church? And in fact, I think it's possible to grow up in a cessationist environment in and know more about what the Holy Spirit doesn't do than what he does do. Right? So let me just dive in.
[01:38]
B
Miss me?
[01:38]
A
I did miss you. Welcome back. We had Scott Ardavanis on the POD for the last few weeks.
[01:42]
B
Did a phenomenal job.
[01:43]
A
Come on the Big Poppy. But great to have you back. So recently I've been seeing some things pop up about a woman named Catherine Crick. She claims to be an apostle. She says that she has received an anointing from the Holy Spirit. Her bio on Amazon says zero seminaries, no theology degree, just gifts flowing through an ordinary vessel that said yes to God's calling. She is 35 years old. She has hundreds of thousands of followers. She goes around, I think she says she has hundreds of documented healings. And yeah, she identifies as Apostle Katherine Crick. And now she has appointed, just recently appointed and anointed eight of her spiritual sons in the faith to the office of Apostle. Now in this episode, I want to answer the question, or at least begin to answer the question, are there apostles and prophets today? And I want to acknowledge, at least initially that to answer that question Effectively or convictionally, from my perspective. I also need to answer a cross pollinating question, which would be are you and am I a cessationist? So here's what I want to do. I want to provide some definition to some terms that everyone may be familiar with, that being cessationist, charismatic and continuationist. Then I want to go back to the Old Testament and look at the three predominant criteria for a prophet. Then I want to look to the New Testament and look at the three criteria for an apostle. And then we'll kind of make that conclusion of whether or not there are apostles and prophets today. But anything before we dive in?
[03:18]
B
No, I think that's super helpful. I'm looking forward to the conversation. I also think it's probably worth just calling out explicitly that this is not like some kind of hobby horse conversation, but rather it is one I've seen personally. You get asked a lot. I've been asked this question personally, so I can't even imagine how many times you've been asked. And so it's, I think it's helpful to maybe provide a little bit of clarity, for sure.
[03:39]
A
So let me just dive in and let me give some, maybe just some definition to the terminology that's often employed. What is a cessationist? A cessationist is, and here's a definition. They believe that the gifts of apostles and prophets were given for a specific time in a specific age, and they ceased at the conclusion of the apostolic era. So they believe, cessationists believe that the signs that the apostles performed were the validation that they truly did speak on behalf of Jesus Christ. A charismatic would be someone that is known for their belief that the miraculous and revelatory gifts described in the New Testament are still in operation today and therefore should be sought by contemporary Christians. This is sometimes closely related, but I want to provide some delineation to that of a continuationist. A continuationist believe much of the same, that there is a continuation of the miraculous gifts. The gift of prophecy and the gift of tongues and the gifts of healing are still in effect according to a continuationist. Now I say that and I want to be really fair. So I, I would hate to not sound fair. I want to be. I want to qualify some things. Not all, not all those who identify as continuationists would identify with the label charismatic. For instance, John Piper, Bob Coughlin, who would say they're open or Bob Coughlin, I think, identifies as a continuationist. And so does Wayne Grudem. Bob Coughlin, who I love and respect, and he is a godly man. He says this. The term charismatic has sometimes been associated with doctrinal error, unsubstantiated claims of healing, financial impropriety, outlandish and unfulfilled predictions, an overemphasis on the speech gifts, and some regrettable hairstyles. That's why I have started to identify myself more often as a continuationist rather than a charismatic. So there is most definitely a broad range on the continuationist spectrum. And I think there is also on the cessationist spectrum, which I'll talk about in a moment. Moment. There is a world of difference between a godly man like John Piper and Bob Coughlin and Kenneth Copeland. Bob and John are godly men that I respect, and they've shaped my life. Kenneth Copeland is a madman. Hide your kids, hide your wife, and hide your wallet, Right? So if you're asking, Johnny, are you a cessationist? I would say, well, I don't like the label. But, yeah, largely, yes, I believe that the apostolic gifts were for the apostolic age. But in the same way that I believe that there is a spectrum on the, you know, a broad range on the spectrum of continuationists, there might also be on the spectrum of cessationism. So I believe that the gifts that the apostles wielded were to validate the authenticity of their apostolic ministry. But as I mentioned, I don't like the word cessationism because it has negative connotations. And sometimes people can begin to define their theology, the Holy Spirit, by what they believe that the Holy Spirit doesn't do. And in fact, I think it's possible to grow up in a cessationist environment and know more about what the Holy Spirit doesn't do than what he does do. Right. So I would want to start there and go, I believe that the Holy Spirit is mighty and active and at work today. He changes hearts. Ephesians says he's the seal of our inheritance, that he's the inspirer of the Word of God, that he's the illuminator of the Word of God. He produces fruit in our life. He provides spiritual gifts. Jesus says that he is our comforter and he is the only source of power that we have in the Christian life. And my friend Eric Thomas always used to say that we can't live a single moment of faithfulness to Jesus Christ outside of the power of His Spirit. So, yes, I believe that the apostolic gifts were for the apostolic age. But I also don't believe that or think that I perfectly align with someone that says the Holy Spirit would never do X, Y, Z today. Right. And I think this is sometimes the indictment on cessationists. You know, like, they believe that God, you know, the Holy Spirit has retired. And I don't know anybody that personally believes that, but I think practically it may look that way. And people say it's more akin to stoic orthodoxy and things like that. So that would be the knock.
[07:44]
B
And people would go as far as to say, I think unfairly, like, the Holy Spirit actually cannot no longer do any of these miraculous things.
[07:52]
A
Flat out doesn't do that.
[07:53]
B
And to your point, I think as we develop friendship, it was actually interesting to hear you've had personal experiences that would maybe cause or fall outside of that understanding, even on the mission field, overseas.
[08:05]
A
Sure, yeah. And I mean, I believe that I can lay my hands on someone and God can heal them through my prayer. Right. Or like, God can use that means. I believe I do that on a regular basis in the sense of, like, when someone is sick. Even last month there was someone in the green room and a couple of the elders, we lay hands on them and pray for them. I believe that God can use that to heal that individual. You know, even one time, I told you before that there was a boy that came up to me and when I was preaching in an Islamic environment in another country, and he was angry at us because we were Christians, and he says he hates Christians. And then he says the next morning he grabs me and says, God came to me in a dream last night, and whatever you say tonight, I need to listen. And that guy gave his life to the Lord and has walked with the Lord ever since then. So I know that there are cessationists that literally told me that didn't happen. He never had the dream. And I go, well, I mean, I think he did. I believe that a missionary could go to another environment, to another people group, and preach the gospel in a language that he has never learned. I believe the Holy Spirit could do that. I mean, absolutely. I just don't believe. First of all, I don't believe that that would be the gift of tongues as we see in the scripture, because they were speaking in their native tongue. But the Holy Spirit can do, and I would want anybody to hear me say this clearly, can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. And I don't like the label. He doesn't do this anymore. But if you're. Again, if we're defining cessationism as the apostolic gifts or for the apostolic age, I would say that is true.
[09:34]
B
And maybe for the cessationist camp, it's good to not to be careful of, not to too flippantly put God in a box, so to speak. And then on the flip side to the continuationist, I think it would be fair to say that boy may absolutely have had that dream. But also if someone walks up to you today and says, hey, I had a dream xyz, there's a degree of maybe healthy skepticism or discerning ears that you're going to be listening to, you
[09:58]
A
could meet that with a level of suspicion for sure. Because I don't think, and this is the idea, I don't think that God normatively works through that environment in an age where we have the word of God. But I believe that just by providing that definition, a cessationist is someone that believes that the apostolic gifts were for the apostolic age. A continuationist believe that those gifts are at work today. And again, I want to be fair here. Not all continuationists are the same. There's what I think they're referred to as reformed continuationists, like a Wayne Grudem, a very respected biblical scholar who would be a lot different than a Benny Hinn. So let's talk about the office of prophet for a moment. What is the criteria for a prophet? This episode is brought to you by one of our ministry partners, the Masters University. One of the things I love about TMU is their commitment to Christ and scripture. And not only that, they offer 150 different fields of study, all that are established upon a biblical worldview. This is so important, regardless of the field of study you may be going into. They offer engineering, elementary education, music, business. Some of you may know that I studied actually accounting and finance, and I'm so thankful for where I'm at today. But I was so grateful to learn finance, business, accounting from a biblical perspective. I would encourage you to check out the Masters University by visiting Masters Edu. And when you do, you can even look at our own Dial in page. If you go to Masters Edu, Dial in and see if this would be a good fit for you. And if you use our code Dial in, that'll waive the application fee for you if you're a student or for the student in your life looking to pursue higher education. Sam Storms, who is a continuationist, would say that prophecy is the human report of divine revelation. That's what prophecy is. And continuationists largely believe that even if the Office Capital P Prophet is not active today, the gift of prophecy is active today. Prophecy is divine revelation. So when someone says that they are exercising the gift of prophecy. They are claiming to be wielding the very words of God. You know, they're a spokesperson. Now, biblically, there is a criteria for a prophet. And again, not all continuationists believe that the office of prophet is for today. Which would differ than from, like, a Pentecostal Christian or those who identify in the NAR movement, who believe that God has awakened and restored the office of prophet and apostle for today. Sometimes people throw in the Bethel movement as a part of this, but Bethel says they're not nar. But Bill Johnson would say he accepts the label apostle even though he doesn't make people call him an apostle. He says it makes him uncomfortable. But, okay, if you want to call me an apostle, I am he. He identifies as a senior leader. So let's talk about the criteria for a prophet in the Old Testament. Three main ones. First of all, their prophecies always had to come true. Deuteronomy 18, God says, the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die. So if you say things that you're speaking on behalf of God about what's going to come to pass, and it doesn't come to pass, you shall die. When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken, the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You shall not be afraid of him. So one of the initial criteria to qualify someone as a prophet is, does what he says come true?
[13:09]
B
Says, does what he say end up happening?
[13:13]
A
And God says, if it doesn't, he's
[13:15]
B
no, he is not a prophet.
[13:16]
A
Yeah, and stone him. You know, Jeremiah 28:9, the true prophet is the one whose prediction comes true. Now, what's interesting is that you have those in the charismatic camp that talk about the gift of prophecy. So Rick Joyner, a prominent charismatic leader, who would say that certain prophets, he says some are only about 10% accurate. A very few of the most mature prophets are approaching 85 to 95% accuracy. He says prophecy is increasing in purity, but there is still a long way to go for those who walk in this ministry. That's Rick Joyner. So how does he reconcile this with Deuteronomy 18? Well, he doesn't. He says it's the wrong interpretation of Deuteronomy 18. So. But that's hard to believe with just the reading of the text. Joyner says, again, no one would ever be able. No prophet, no prophet who has that gift from God could ever step out in faith required to walk in his calling if he knew that a single mistake would ruin him for life. But God says, listen, if he says something that God says is gonna happen, it doesn't happen. Then, you know, he's not speaking for me. Jack Dear, who was a professor at Dallas Seminary and then heard the teaching of the charismatic leader John Wimber and then pastored a Vineyard church, he says this. Prophets are really messy. Prophets make mistakes. And sometimes when a prophet makes a mistake, it's a serious mistake. I mean, he says, I know prophets just last year that cost people millions of dollars with a mistake they made. I talked to people who made the wrong investments, actually move their homes, spent tons of money. So they would say, hey, prophets are messy. They can be wrong. But biblically speaking, no. You knew it was a true prophet if their prophecies came true. So this is in contrast to Benny Hinn saying that I think in the 90s that God was going to destroy all of the homosexuals or other Kansas City prophets that said that Southern California was going to sink into the heart of the Pacific Ocean. It never happened. Right. So that would be the first one. Do their prophecies come true?
[15:02]
B
Tough. I'll keep going.
[15:03]
A
Secondly, they had to be known as a man of moral integrity. They had to be a godly individual. So this is an obvious one. It's like a qualification of a pastor. You look at their character. It's not just what they do, it's not just what they say externally, but who they are internally.
[15:16]
B
So in many ways, that seems like one of the most important differentiations. Yeah. For looking out at the world we see today and people who would self pronounce themselves as prophets.
[15:24]
A
100%. 100%. So do the prophecies come true? Are they a man of integrity? And then third, is there a level of doctrinal fidelity? Are they faithful to what God has already plainly revealed in the revelation of his word? Deuteronomy 13, God says through Moses, if a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, and then he says to you, let us go after other gods whom you have not known, and let us serve them. And you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or the dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart. And with all your soul you shall follow the Lord your God and fear him, and you shall keep his commandments, listen to his voice, serve him and cling to him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death. So God is saying here, listen, if a prophet ever arises and he wields signs and wonders, but he says something contrary to what God has already revealed in his Word, you're to do what? You're gonna put him to death. Right. Why? Because it is a very serious thing to claim to speak to God and to lead people away from his truth. Now, the question might be, you know, you might be having in your mind is, well, maybe this gift, the gift of prophecy now is different from the gift of prophecy then and the prophetic office then, right? The prophets in the Old Testament would say, thus says the Lord. But what we find in the New Testament is that the New Testament states the exact opposite, that there's this distinction. The same standards are applied to a New Testament prophet as to an Old Testament prophet. Sam Waldron says this. He says if New Testament prophecy and distinction from Old Testament prophecy was not infallible in its pronouncements, this would have constituted an absolutely fundamental contrast between the Old Testament institution and the New Testament institution. To suppose that a difference as important as this would be passed over without explicit comment is unthinkable. So nowhere in the Bible is there, and I'll talk about maybe the rebuttals you have percolating in your mind in a moment, but nowhere in the Bible is there an explicit distinction between an Old Testament prophet and a New Testament prophet. Nor is there a sub tier of prophets who are not subject to the standard that we have just laid out in regards to prophetic accuracy, moral integrity, and biblical fidelity.
[17:49]
B
And two things worth highlighting there. One, the doctrinal fidelity is actually presupposing a level of familiarity and a sense to which your nose has to be in the Book and you have to be able to judge things. And as God's saying that back in Deuteronomy 13 to his people, he's giving them very black and white signs for them to be comparing these prophetic words to be whether they're from him or not.
[18:13]
A
Because people have to be in the book too, to know whether or not what he's saying is legitimate.
[18:18]
B
And so OT prophecy, NT prophecy, same spirit, same gifting. And so keep building on that then.
[18:25]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think the questions that I would have. Right. Like, and that I've wrestled through, I guess, to be honest, right. Cause I don't think this is like when, you know, there are passages I read and I go, hmm, I'm thinking about this. So someone might be asking, as I have, what about the gifts mentioned in Romans 12? What about 1 Corinthians 14? What about what Paul says to the Thessalonian Church?
[18:46]
B
So I've got Romans 12, 6 here.
[18:48]
A
Should I just read it?
[18:48]
B
Yeah, for everyone's sake. But having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, whether prophecy in agreement with the faith. And he goes on to say, or service in his serving. But he's bringing up prophecy explicitly in Romans 12.
[19:00]
A
And he says, according to the proportion of his faith. One thing there about his faith, it makes it feel like it's on a scale of the strength of the faith of the individual, proclaiming.
[19:07]
B
Like, you'd go from 10% fidelity or accuracy to 90% over time with your sanctification.
[19:12]
A
Yeah, but it's actually. It's definitive. It's according to the faith. Meaning, like, it's according to that. Whatever he's saying must align perfectly with the faith. Jude says, once and for all, hand it down to the saints. So that would be my stance on Romans 12. And again, godly people disagree on that. But I would say, let's go to 1 Thessalonians 5:20, which would be like, okay, 1 Thessalonians 5: 20. Paul says, do not despise prophetic utterances, but examine them carefully. Hold fast to that which is good, and abstain from every form of evil. So if you're reading this verse, and then I just said that the New Testament gift of prophecy was infallible, then why are the Thessalonian believers commanded to test and examine it carefully? And here would be my stance, that this was written at a time when the gift of prophecy was still active in the church today. So I don't think that this is supporting the idea that prophecy could be infallible. It leads me to the opposite conclusion, which would be to test anyone who claims to have a message from God or who claims to speak authoritatively. Because when you say, thus says the Lord, even Agabus, who is often used from a continuationist perspective to maybe promote the idea that prophets could be wrong, he uses that same formula. This is what the Holy Spirit is saying. That's what the formula is for those who are speaking divine revelation. So I don't think that these texts support that there are prophets today in a biblical sense, nor wielding prophecy in the sense of where you can use that divine formula. Thus says the Lord. I think thus says the Lord is a lot different than here's something that God has put on my heart that I think I'm supposed to say to you.
[20:48]
B
That's a huge distinction.
[20:49]
A
It's a huge distinction because when you say thus says the Lord, God has given me a word for you that carries with it a level of authority that I do believe. I've called you certain times, or I've called different friends certain times, and God has put them on my heart and I want to say something to them, but I always want to submit whatever is on my heart to something else supremely authoritative. And I think even Wayne Gruden would say that you cannot say thus says the Lord. You can say, I think this is what the Spirit might be saying, and that would be true.
[21:17]
B
And for someone, incidentally, who might be hearing that and saying like, oh, that's just semantics, I think how important that chasm is of those are small changes in words with huge meaning. Because when you say thus says the Lord, I mean you're adding first art of Annas to the canon as opposed to saying, hey, Johnny, I've been thinking about you and for some reason this keeps coming to mind and I just want to talk to you about it. If there's anything there, there totally.
[21:42]
A
And again, there are. Like, a John Piper is a guy who's preached through the entire Bible. There's nothing that isn't in his ministry that undermines the sufficiency of Scripture. But if so, that would be different than someone that says, no, I have a word for the Lord for you, which even if he would say theologically, he affirms the sufficiency of Scripture. It's a practical undermining of the sufficiency of Scripture because it leaves people in that sort of audience or movement wanting to hear a fresh word rather than what's been revealed in the truth of God's Word once and for all.
[22:09]
B
And that difference is where we started, of someone who's self proclaiming themselves as a prophet or as an apostle. So maybe keep building here. Can we switch to the office of the apostle?
[22:17]
A
There are three criteria for an apostle, just like there are three criteria for a prophet, at least that we're going to focus on. First of all, an apostle was someone that had to witness the resurrected Jesus Christ. That's what you see in Acts 1, that knew the resurrected Jesus Christ. Secondly, they had to be specifically chosen by Jesus. You see that in Acts 1:24, when they go to replace Judas. Show us which of these you have chosen, chosen by Jesus. The third is that the way that that apostleship was validated was through the power that the apostles wielded over all types of disease by the signs and wonders that they performed. So that was the criteria for a prophetic. They witnessed the resurrected Jesus Christ, they were chosen by Jesus and they wielded signs and wonders as the validation of their apostleship. Now I want to talk about that third criteria for a moment because this is largely where that idea of, or this, maybe the disagreement between cessationists and a continuationist would come into play regarding signs and wonders. There are three primary periods in which God worked miracles through his representatives and in human history, primary being the key word, three primary periods where miracles were normative. I would say first would be Moses and Joshua. That's the way God validated Moses. Moses says, if they ask me who sent me, what should I tell them?
[23:40]
B
God.
[23:40]
A
Well, how will they know that you really sent me? And God says, Moses, what's in your hand? Throw it down on the ground. It's a snake. And now you're going to use that to split the Red Sea. You're going to do that to bring plagues and they're going to know that you really are from God because of the signs and wonders that you perform.
[23:56]
B
And key in that is every time he threw his staff down, then it's becoming a snake. Like that's the implication of this is a 100% repeatable reality.
[24:04]
A
Yeah, he wielded that power on behalf of God. The second would be Elijah and Elisha. The second period, Elijah is known for that duel at Mount Carmel where he calls down fire from heaven and defeats the prophets of baal. Epic story.
[24:15]
B
Epic all time story. All time Bible stories.
[24:18]
A
Yeah, all time Bible story. That was his way of showing that I am truly a representative of Yahweh. So Moses and Joshua, Elijah and Elisha. And the third would be Jesus and the apostles. So Jesus says, and I say this often as I've been preaching through John, but the reason why John's Gospel doesn't refer to Jesus miracles as miracles, but rather as signs is because they were significant of who he is and what he claimed to be. Miracles were as abnormal in Jesus day as they would be in our day. That's why they were the authenticating validator that he was from God. Nicodemus comes to him and says, good teacher, we know that you must come from God. Why? Because no one can do the signs that you are doing unless God is with them. So even to a First century Jewish audience. They were like, oh, another miracle guy. They were going, he's from God. He's from God.
[25:07]
B
Just two observations. Maybe just for me, but the first time anyone asked me, what's the difference between an apostle and a disciple? I was, I was. I had been a Christian for a long time and instantly was like, I don't know. I thought they were interchangeable. So it's helpful to know that there's actually like established criteria that differentiate an apostle. And secondly would be. I want to pause and actually, I think that might be new to a bunch of people that the Bible filled with miracles are actually clustering around these three very specific times in period. And that it's so easy for us and like, felt bored Christianity to be like, what are you talking about?
[25:41]
A
The whole thing is miracles.
[25:42]
B
Yeah, miracles are happening all over the place. But it's just how we look back at history. If you were walking around at the same time as Jesus, you would have been floored as if you were walking around in middle Tennessee in 2026 or wherever you might be listening to this for sure.
[25:54]
A
I think Bavinck draws attention to the fact that in 6,000 years of biblical history, there are roughly 200 years where miracles were normative. And yes, there are different miracles kind of scattered and littered throughout the rest of biblical history. But normatively it's three distinct periods. And those periods line up with when God is giving revelation. This person speaks on my behalf. So Jesus, even when he's met by opposition and disbelief from the Pharisees, he says in John 5:36, the very works that I do testify about me. John 10:37, if I do not do the works of my Father, don't believe me. He's saying, if I'm not doing signs and wonders, don't believe me. He says, but if I do them, though, you do not believe me. Believe the works that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father. When Peter preaches at Pentecost and he is trying to convince that one of my favorite words throughout the Book of Acts is that word persuade. They weren't just kind of laying truth on a table, they're trying to make persuasive arguments. He says that this Jesus was proven to be the Christ with signs and wonders, which you have all seen in Hebrews 2. It says after it was at first. This is the message of the Gospel. It says after it. The Gospel was at the first spoken through the Lord. That's Jesus. It was confirmed to us by those who heard. Who's that? That's the apostles. And God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to his own will, that this message, it was spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed by those who heard the apostles. And that message that they then pronounced was validated by signs and wonders and various miracles and by the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 12:12, the signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance by signs and wonders and miracles. So that's the qualifications of an apostle. So that would lead me to believe, of course, there's no apostles today, right? Because you had to witness Jesus, you had to be chosen by Jesus, and you had to wield signs and wonders. But I also want to look at the function of an apostle, which would lead me as well to believe that there are no apostles today. Paul says in Ephesians 2:20 that the church, it says, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone. So when Paul is talking about the church, he says that it is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Now, to say that there are still apostles and prophets today would mean that the church's foundation is still being laid. But Paul says no. Of which you, he says, in whom the whole body being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord. And and then he says, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit, meaning we're the walls. So if the apostles and prophets were the foundation of the church, then I know, I believe that foundation has been laid. Some would say that when it says the apostles and prophets are the foundation, that it's referring to Old Testament prophets. But that wouldn't make sense Contextually with Ephesians 3. 5, which Paul says, he says, which in other generations was not made. That's the mystery of the Gospel was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit. And then some would say, well, the apostles and prophets are conflated into one office. But no, these were two distinct offices, as we see in Ephesians 4:11, Paul says, and he gave some as apostles and some as prophets. That's different. Some as evangelists and some as pastors and some aspects teachers. So biblically speaking, I would say because of the qualifications of an apostle, there are no more apostles. And because of the function of an apostle or a prophet that they speak divine revelation. That function is no longer necessary because we have the word of God. So both the office and the gift, I would say, are no longer in effect.
[29:51]
B
And those are important distinctions. There's a lot of heavy lifting going on in there, but. But maybe while we're still on it, could we speak to. I feel like one that we haven't touched on yet is tongues probably worth
[30:02]
A
its own episode, you know, because I think what you see in the Book of Acts is that they're speaking in their own native language in Acts. And then what's Cornelius. They begin to speak in their native language. But Tom Pennington notes regarding the uses of tongues in the church, Just talking about from a church history perspective. 1 Corinthians, where Paul even mentions other elements of it, was the fourth inspired letter that Paul wrote following Galatians in 1 and 2 Thessalonians. So 1 Corinthians was the fourth letter that he wrote. I think he wrote it, you know, 50, 60ish. Paul would go on to write nine other canonical letters after 1 Corinthians to six different churches. And there is never a mention of the gift of tongues again. Now in the Pastoral epistles, when Paul is writing one and two Timothy and Titus, these are the books that he would write near the conclusion of his ministry that were going to give basically direction to the post apostolic church. There is no mention of spiritual gifts. And I find it really interesting when his son in the faith is sick, he doesn't say, go find Bob the healer. He says, drink a little wine for your stomach. So that's from Paul. And you do see a shift in the New Testament landscape as Paul gets older and the further along you get away from the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Some other notes from church history. John Chrysostom would say that these gifts have largely ceased referring to 1 Corinthians. Augustine, writing in the late 3 hundreds or early 4 hundreds, would say in the earliest times, the Holy Spirit fell upon them that believed and they spoke with tongues which they had not learned as the Spirit gave them utterance. That thing was done for a sign and it is passed away. John Calvin would say, lightning. Lightning rod. No, but Calvin would say, the gift of healing, like the rest of the miracles which the Lord willed to be brought forth at a time. And they have vanished in order to make the preaching of the gospel marvelous forever. Jonathan Edwards says of the extraordinary gifts they were given in order to the founding and establishing of the church in the world. But since the canon of the Scriptures has been completed and the Christian church fully founded and established. These extraordinary gifts have ceased. And then finally, Spurgeon, who's universally kind of loved, he says those earlier miraculous gifts have departed from us. So I believe that both the office and the gift of the apostle and prophets have ceased. But again, I want to come back to what I stated at the beginning. This doesn't mean that I want to put the Holy Spirit in a box. The Holy Spirit should be worshiped. You can pray to the Holy Spirit. I pray every single Sunday before I preach. You hear me, Holy Spirit, you know, open her eyes. That's a prayer that we may behold the wonderful things in your word. So because I don't believe that these gifts specifically of an apostle are at work today, that doesn't mean that I don't believe that God can heal. It doesn't mean that I don't believe that God can use me to cast out a demon. I believe that if you wake me up in the middle of the night, I'm still going to have whatever gifts the Lord has given me, teaching or leadership, I'm going to be able to do that.
[32:49]
B
But you might be a little.
[32:51]
A
Yeah, I might be foggy mentally, but that's a gift that God has given me. God has given you the gift of. I would say of leadership as well. If someone says they have the gift of healing, it shouldn't be dependent upon their audience. That would not be in alignment with the apostolic gift that they weren't healing back pain. They were raising people from the dead. They were making lame people walk. And it wasn't something that was disputed. It was like, hey, that guy's been sitting there for 30 years and now he's walking and leaping and praising God. Those things are different now. Do I believe that God can miraculously heal a lame person today that's been there for 30 years? 100%. I just don't believe because Bob's got the gift, you know, I believe that it's because God answered prayer, and he does that every single day all around the world.
[33:35]
B
And people aren't walking around with the same normative gifting as they were prior. And I just. In a study of Acts for another time. This would be another episode. It's also worth delineating. Even when the apostles are working those gifts, it's often, I feel like, so funny. There'll be like a verse and he raised him up, and then the following chapter and a half will be Peter or John making the gospel made known persuasively, clearly and the amount of sheer ink that's like spent on the time of the proclamation of the Word, it just leads back to, I'm so grateful those gifts were poured out for the substantiation of the Word that we have before us today. And that's hence to again, like, not as a hobby horse, but it's why Scripture is so important and why the study, the reflection, the meditation upon it is just so irreplaceable.
[34:26]
A
Yeah, And I think one of the reasons where, you know, this is one of the gifts, you know, the questions that I get asked, you know, most often at church, and part of the reason why I guess I haven't talked about it that much before, is I would want to reiterate just the amount of respect I have for certain guys that are different than maybe the rest, you know, like, meaning like a guy like Bob or John Piper that do really love the Lord. And I would disagree with him here. I would want to separate those guys from others in the category that claim to be an apostle. And when they talk about their church, there's no preaching of the Word. It's all about anointing, it's all about experience, it's all about casting out demons. But when Paul tells Timothy and Paul's about to die, the instruction Paul gives is preach the Word, wield the word of God, and we can talk in the future about just the sufficiency of scripture and what we have in God's divine revelation. But in our world now, that's the main instruction. It's the main qualification of an elder. Can they teach outside of their character? Can they teach the Bible? Not are they anointed to do some other thing? You know, so I think last thing I'll say is when I was growing up, people that grew up in conservative evangelical circles, I think they swung to the charismatic spectrum because they were longing in an experience. And I think that's a fair longing because the Bible is experienced. You know, our relationship with God should be experiential in the sense of like taste and see that he's good.
[35:51]
B
It's not a set of equations, it's a relationship.
[35:53]
A
It's not just cognitive, it's a real sense. Then I would say in recent years I've had almost zero people ask me about the charismatic church because the average question I get asked from a 1920 year old is not about the Holy Spirit, it's about Eastern Orthodox. So I think that you always have this teeter totter between I want an experience. And then people that go, now I'M in the average evangelical church, and it's like beach balls and lasers, and I want to go back to liturgy, transcendence, beauty. I want to walk into something that looks like it was, that stood the test of time, carved out of stone. I don't want to walk into a warehouse. And so you have this constant pendulum and maybe one thing to talk about in the future.
[36:37]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for providing a little clarity here. I know it's one that's near and dear to your heart, and so I hope sincerely that this is helpful for people.
[36:44]
A
Yeah. Thanks so much, bro.
[36:45]
B
Yeah. Thanks, man.