"Jesus Never Mentioned Homosexuality" & 6 Other Common Rebuttals — A Pastor's Response

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Jesus Never Mentioned Homosexuality" & 6 Other Common Rebuttals — A Pastor's Response

Dial In with Jonny Ardavanis | June 23, 2026
Co-host: Hank | Guest: Jonny Ardavanis

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Overview

In this episode, Jonny Ardavanis and Hank address seven of the most common rebuttals Christians encounter when discussing what the Bible says about homosexuality. The aim is to equip listeners—whether they’re confused, seeking to engage with compassion, or answering tough questions—with clear biblical responses rooted in both truth and love. The conversation clarifies theological misconceptions, interprets key scripture passages, and provides pastoral advice for those personally affected by same-sex attraction.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Is Same-Sex Attraction Sinful? (00:35, 19:48, 21:20, 23:34)

• Jonny asserts that not only acting on same-sex desires but the desires themselves are ‘disordered’ and the result of the Fall.
• The Bible recognizes both sins of action (e.g., "Do not steal") and desire (e.g., "Do not covet"), referencing the tenth commandment (00:35, 21:20).
  • Quote:
    “The Bible clearly describes sins of desires—wanting something that you should not want as a sin.” (00:35)
  • Cautions against labeling oneself a “gay Christian,” as Christian identity should be rooted in Christ, not in sinful desires. (19:48, 28:37)
  • Quote:
    “You don’t identify by the sin that Jesus died for.” (20:04)

2. Paul's Condemnations: Ancient Context and Modern Myths (03:22, 05:57)

• Rebuttal covered: "Paul was only condemning abusive relationships, not loving, consensual partnerships."
  • Jonny brings extensive historical evidence showing that consensual homosexual relationships were common in the ancient world, thus Paul’s words covered all homosexual actions, not just exploitative ones.
  • Quote:
    “There were perfectly good Greek words to be able to do so. But he used the word found in the Septuagint, Leviticus—arsenokoitai, which means men who bed with men. He’s not talking about exploitation.” (03:53)
• Notable: Even affirming scholars like Diarmaid MacCulloch and Luke Timothy Johnson agree the Bible straightforwardly forbids all forms of homosexual behavior; disagreements arise only from placing personal experience over biblical authority. (05:51)
  • Quote (Luke Timothy Johnson):
    “We do, in fact, reject the straightforward commands of Scripture and appeal instead to another authority... the weight of our own experience.” (05:57)

3. Did "Homosexuality" Only Enter the Bible in 1946? (07:29)

• Clarifies the “Project 1946” claim: The specific English term “homosexual” wasn’t used until mid-20th century, but original Greek and Hebrew terms (arsenokoitai) always denoted homosexual behavior.
  • Quote:
    “It’s not about the English word being used. It’s about what Greek and Hebrew words were intended to mean.” (07:29)

4. Is the Church Only About Love? (08:41)

• Distinguishes God’s love from moral affirmation.
  • Quote:
    “God’s love does not override his holiness nor his authority... The first call of the Gospel is to repent.” (08:57)
• Jonny underscores Jesus’s pattern: reaching sinners with compassion but calling each to repentance (references Zacchaeus, woman at the well, woman caught in adultery). (08:57–11:00)
• True biblical love "rejoices in the truth" (1 Corinthians 13:6). (11:00)

5. "Jesus Never Addressed Homosexuality" (13:04)

• Jonny rebuts this by explaining:
  • Jesus did address sexual ethics by upholding the Levitical "porneia codes," which included homosexuality, in Matthew 19 and Mark 7.
  • He reaffirms the unity of the Father and Son (John 10:30)—what the Father condemned, Jesus also condemned.
  • Quote:
    “He did address homosexuality because he addressed the porneia codes found in Leviticus.” (13:29)

6. "But We Don’t Follow Old Testament Laws (Like Not Eating Shrimp or Mixed Fabrics)" (15:24)

• Explains the interpretive difference between civil/ceremonial and moral law:
  • Jesus “fulfilled,” not abolished, the law. Ceremonial/civil laws were uniquely for Israel and are fulfilled in Christ, but moral laws (e.g., prohibiting sexual immorality) remain universally binding. (15:55–18:04)
  • Quote:
    "There is a hermeneutic for why we are allowed to eat shellfish and pulled pork... We distinguish between civil, ceremonial, and moral laws. And those moral laws are still in effect." (15:55)

7. "If Two Consenting Adults Love Each Other, Who Is Hurt?" (18:04)

• Jonny insists deviation from God’s design always brings harm—to individuals, families, and societies.
  • References Romans 1 and broad consequences for ignoring God’s order. (18:37)
  • Quote:
    “Whenever you deviate from God's clear design, it's detrimental and there are drastic consequences.” (19:01)

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Practical Counsel: For Those Who Struggle with Same-Sex Attraction (19:48, 28:37)

• Encourage honest confession to God and trusted believers.
• Warn against adopting a self-concept rooted in sinful desires: “Do not be at home with this sin. Don’t say this is who you are.” (28:37)
• Transformation comes not from mere self-effort, but from the renewing power of the gospel—lifting your gaze to Christ rather than living in perpetual self-reflection. (31:04)
  • Quote:
    “God doesn’t just take away your desires. He renews your desires. He transforms our affections.” (28:37)
• Strong encouragement: Even those with checkered pasts are not out of God’s reach—referencing Isaiah 56: “You’re not damaged goods to God. God is so kind... I’m going to rewrite your story.” (32:32)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “Compassion and clarity are not antonyms.” — Hank (02:28)
• “Jesus never addressed specifically bestiality nor pedophilia. So if you’re going by that metric, then you’d be able to bring into the fray a whole host of sins.” — Jonny (13:04)
• “Jesus... was tempted in every way as we are, yet without sin. Jesus had no sin nature.” — Jonny (24:02–25:22)
• “Sin is never passive, it’s always active. That’s why we’re called to mortify the flesh in whatever way that appears in our life.” — Jonny (30:13)
• “God is a loving God, and his arms are not folded in heaven... He comes for the sick, and that includes me, and it includes the homosexual sinner.” — Jonny (33:50)

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Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Time | |-----------------------------------------|--------------| | Is Same-Sex Desire Sinful? | 00:35, 19:48 | | Ancient & Modern Contexts (Paul) | 03:22–06:57 | | "Homosexuality" Added in 1946? | 07:29 | | God’s Love vs. Affirmation | 08:41–12:12 | | Did Jesus Address Homosexuality? | 13:04–15:24 | | OT Law, Moral vs. Ceremonial | 15:24–18:04 | | Who is Hurt by Consenting Acts? | 18:04–19:48 | | Pastoral Counsel for Temptation | 19:48–20:04, 28:37–34:45 |

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Tone and Approach

• Consistently clear, pastoral, and compassionate—emphasizing repentance as a manifestation of God’s love.
• Host and guest frequently stress their aim is not to win arguments or foment division, but to lovingly clarify biblical truth and give hope for transformation.
• Real-life anecdotes, historical context, and scriptural reasoning are interwoven for a balanced, engaging conversation.

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Summary Takeaways

• The Bible, cover to cover, addresses homosexual practice as sin, rooted in God’s design for sexuality and marriage.
• Responding to common objections requires compassion paired with theological clarity—affirming dignity without affirming sin.
• Identity must derive from Christ, not from sinful desires or cultural labels.
• God’s transformative power and forgiveness are available to all who repent; past failures or struggles do not disqualify anyone from his grace or purpose.

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For Listeners

If you are seeking biblical, thoughtful, and loving responses to tough questions about homosexuality and Christianity—or need hope for yourself or a loved one wrestling with these issues—this episode offers extensive scriptural grounding, pastoral warmth, and practical steps for walking in grace and truth.

Transcript

[John Piper]

This episode of Dial in is brought

[Podcast Announcer]

to you by Crossway, publisher of the Pleasures of God. Meditations on God's delight in being God and this beloved classic. Pastor and best selling author John Piper searches scripture to uncover the pleasures that delight the heart of God. Each chapter focuses on a specific joy. The glory of his son, the beauty of creation, the richness of his grace, the prayers of his people, and more. Pick up a copy of the Pleasures

[John Piper]

of God wherever books are sold or

[Podcast Announcer]

visit crossway.org pleasuresofgod to get 30% off with a free Crossway plus account.

[John Piper]

Is same sex attraction a sin? Well, it is sinful and it is a disordered fallen desire. I think there's a misconception that as long as you don't act on the temptation, then the desire is not sin. And the Bible clearly describes sins of desires, wanting something that you should not want as a sin.

[Hank]

Well, I actually can't think of a specific example in the Gospels where Jesus addresses homosexuality. How would you respond to that person?

[John Piper]

He did address homosexuality because he addressed the porneia codes found in Leviticus.

[Hank]

Okay, but practically, Johnny, if two consenting adults love each other, like, what's actually the harm in that? Who is that hurting? And why is this like such a big deal?

[John Piper]

Hank, how we doing?

[Hank]

Doing great, Johnny, how are you?

[John Piper]

Good, great, wonderful.

[Hank]

Diving into part two.

[John Piper]

Diving into part two. In our previous episode, we looked at just comprehensive overview of what the Bible says about homosexuality. And we understand that there are some consistent retorts and rebuttals that people have. I would say, especially in like the revisionist camp of, or maybe just people that are genuinely confused about what the Bible says. They've watched a TikTok video or an Instagram video about kind of refuting something that you've grown up hearing. And I, I don't know what to do now. I heard that this is put in the same category as eating shrimp, you know, so why are we making such a big deal about it today? So we want to go through at least maybe a handful of those rebuttals to what the Bible says about homosexuality. And our obvious stance would be that it's a sin clearly condemned and yet a sin that God forgives through his grace. But want to walk through those rebuttals today so that if you're listening or watching, you're equipped with the scripture not just to win an argument, but so that you might help someone who's confused and Lord willing leads, you know, help lead some to repentance through the power and spirit of God.

[Hank]

And where we started last week that's probably also worth referencing is, again, this is not like a political slam session where we're trying to, you know, get excited claps from one side of the audience and kind of slam the other side. But also with that compassion and clarity are not antonyms. And the reality is we can speak really clearly on these matters still with a degree of care and candor that's appropriate for the reality of so many individuals who are facing these questions. So maybe, Joni, if we kick things off here, and you can take us a different direction if you want to, but how would you respond to. I've heard the argument made. You know, Paul in the New Testament is writing to very specific cultural conditions where there's slavery or there's a huge imbalance of power. And really, he's actually forbidding those types of relationships as opposed to this kind of love and mutual consent between two committed individuals.

[John Piper]

Yeah, I think that's kind of like a consistent rebuttal is that Paul's not talking about monogamous relationships. He's talking about the pedophiliac raping of a young slave boy by a Roman centurion or something like that. But that's just not true. And the ancient world knew homosexuality, much like the modern world does. There was gay lovers in the ancient world. Socrates, many say, was a homosexual. Alexander the Great had male and female lovers. It was well known that Alexander the Great's army, they fought so fiercely, not just for their country, not just for Alexander, but because they had homosexual relationships with those in the trenches with them. This is well documented throughout history. Nero had castrated a young boy named Sporus and married him. According to Suetonius, who was the first century Roman centurion or Roman historian, the majority, he says, of Roman Caesars had homosexual lovers. Julius Caesar's lover was King Nicomedes, which is why they called Julius Caesar queen. So it was well documented in the ancient world. This is nothing new. Furthermore, if Paul wanted to condemn the pedophilic raping of a young slave boy by a Roman centurion, there were perfectly good Greek words to be able to do so. But he used the word found in the Septuagint, Leviticus. Basically, Paul invented the word because it's what they translated from Leviticus Arsenicoitai, which means men who bed with men. He's not talking about exploitation, he's not talking about domination here. And furthermore, in Romans 1, when it's talking about that sin of homosexuality, it's saying that they in 127 they burned in their desire for one another. This is erotic love. This is not dominating, subordinating. Yeah, exactly. This is just doing with a man. Doing with a man what should only be done with a woman in marriage. McCulloch, who is a gay professor at Oxford and a decorated historian, a gay man, says this. This is an issue of biblical authority. And despite well intentioned theological fancy footwork to the contrary, it is difficult to see the Bible as doing anything but disapproving of homosexuality, let alone having any conception of homosexual identity, meaning that's who I am. The only alternatives are either to cleave to the patterns of life and assumptions set out in the Bible, meaning, understand what it says and believe it and obey it, or to say that the Bible is simply wrong. And I think it's worth mentioning this gay professor at Oxford who says there's really no way around this. The Bible clearly forbids this because you have all these people in the modern church saying no, we've got this wrong.

[Hank]

Or at least introducing a question of, well, it's actually not that straightforward and it's not super clear that we can know what the Bible says about this.

[John Piper]

No, Luke Timothy Johnson, who is another respected New Testament scholar who supports homosexual behavior, says this. I think it's important to state clearly quote that we do. That's the affirming camp. We do in fact reject the straightforward commands of Scripture and appeal instead to another authority. When we declare that same sex unions can be holy and good. What's that authority? We appeal explicitly to the weight of our own experience and the experience thousands of others have witnessed to which tells us that to claim our own sexual orientation is in fact to accept the way in which God has created us. So he says we reject the straightforward commands of Scripture and we're appealing to a higher authority. What's that authority? Our experience. And so these are two respected affirming scholars, Oxford one of them, and they're saying, hey, there's no way around this. You see this in Scripture. So I think that's helpful to know at least from even, you know, one of them being a homosexual himself.

[Hank]

Absolutely. And it's just, I think there's a portion of people who probably hear this that it's a good place to start because foundationally it takes a whole Bible to be a whole Christian. And there's, I would imagine, a bunch of folks who are listening who may just be sincerely ignorant of the fact that we unpacked last week that the Bible actually does speak so clearly about this. If we were to continue down the rabbit trail for a second, what would you say to folks like, I've heard the argument made, you know, homosexuality as a concept or in the English, didn't even appear in the Bibles we read today until, you know, the 1900s.

[John Piper]

Yeah, a lot of people say it's, you know, Project 1946. It wasn't in there till later translations. And to be honest, the word homosexual wasn't in our English Bibles until 1946. But it's not about the English word being used. It's about what Greek and Hebrew words were intended to mean. So beforehand, it was often translated as sodomite. But the Greek word is arsenokoitai, which means men who bed with men. Over time, that has referred to different things, just like the word gay meant something different. But now you have homosexual, because it's clear. But men who bed with men is the translation of arsna koitai or malakos, which is understood to be a passive partner in a homosexual relationship.

[Hank]

And so those first two questions, super helpful. Deal more with maybe a practical understanding or reading of the text. If we were to go up a level or maybe speak to a different audience, I think to move up and provide a little greater theological clarity, how would you respond to someone who might say, like, okay, moving up a level. Isn't the church supposed to be a place that just loves people? You know, God is love. He loves me exactly as I am. How do you respond to that rebuttal?

[John Piper]

I would say, first of all, God is profoundly and truly a God of love. And I think sometimes even, you know, in the rebuttals on this, it's, why are you trying to. Maybe my God is a God of love. Why? You're. You're.

[Hank]

You're dividing them.

[John Piper]

You're full of hate.

[Hank]

Yeah.

[John Piper]

And it's like, no. Well, no. Jesus was very. He very clearly said that the road is narrow and the modern world wants to make the road as wide as possible. Jesus says the road is narrow, but he is a God full of love, full of compassion. He comes to die for sinners. And I don't want to even get lost in the conversation without mentioning again that the point in even doing this is not just to win the argument so that people would see that the diagnosis is that homosexuality is a sin. And the good news is, First Timothy 1, Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, and that's what I am. So, yes, it is true that God is a God of love. And so the question is, my God, you know, then why would he condemn this? Well, God's love does not override his holiness nor his authority. You know, this isn't one attribute that swallows up the other attributes. Furthermore, the first call of the Gospel is to repent. And the Old Testament people are called to repentance. When John the Baptist shows up on the scene, he calls people to repentance. When Jesus shows up on the scene, he calls people to repentance. When Peter preaches, he calls them in Acts 2 to repentance. When Paul preaches, he calls them to repentance. Jesus is a God of love. He sits down with the woman at the well who sold her body for a place to say. But he calls her to repentance. In the story in John 8, the woman caught in adultery, he says, woman, where are your accusers? Neither do I condemn you. But he doesn't stop there. He says, what? Go and sin no more. He calls Zacchaeus down from the tree. Who is There is no such moral equivalent to Zacchaeus, the worst guy you could possibly imagine. And he calls him to repentance. So this is what Jesus does. He is a God of love, but he calls people to repentance. And Furthermore, biblical love, 1 Corinthians 13:6 says, rejoices in the truth. And the truth is, homosexuality is a sin. And so the most loving thing you can do, and this is why I said it at the beginning of our previous episode, I have no personal animus towards the homosexual community. I know people that are homosexual. Truly in my heart, it's the most loving thing I can do, is to tell people the truth as revealed in God's word. Psalm 97:10 says, Let those who love the Lord hate evil. Not hate people, but hate sin. And in loving the sinner, you tell them of the sin. Romans 12:9, Abhor what is evil, cling to what is good. So yes, God is a God of love, and because he loves people, he calls them to repentance when he dined with sinners. This was not a means of moral affirmation. It was a means of evangelistic engagement to have them turn from this world and turn to Him. This episode is brought to you by one of our ministry partners, the Master's University. One of the things I love about TMU is their commitment to Christ and Scripture. And not only that, they offer 150 different fields of study, all that are established upon a biblical worldview. This is so important, regardless of the field of study you may be going into. They offer engineering, elementary education, music, Business. Some of you may know that I studied actually accounting and finance, and I'm so thankful for them at today, but I was so grateful to learn finance, business, accounting from a biblical perspective. I would encourage you to check out the Master's university by visiting Masters Edu. And when you do, you can even look at our own dial in page. If you go to Masters Edu, dial in and see if this would be a good fit for you. And if you use our code dial in, that'll waive the application fee for you. If you're a student or for the student in your life looking to pursue

[Hank]

higher education, you lay out Jesus example and it's just I'm underscoring and I don't want to like beat a dead horse, but I feel like you'll hear the phrase, you know, people won't remember what you say. It's how you made them feel. And I understand that. Like, I wouldn't agree with that statement wholeheartedly because I think words matter and truth matters for sure, obviously. But I think there is the truth in that of that. If you're screaming this rebuke with doctrinal clarity and zero love, I mean, you're compared to a clanging gong. And so I appreciate, at least in our friendship, just the tender care to speak these things with empathy and compassion in the spirit that Jesus did. Now, practically, though, for the rebuttal, who might say, well, I actually can't think of a specific example in the Gospels where Jesus addresses homosexuality. How would you respond to that person?

[John Piper]

I say, well, first of all, that argument falls flat. You know, people say, you know, they'll comment on things and say, jesus never, never addressed xyz, you know, homosexuality. Well, that argument falls flat because he also didn't address specifically bestiality nor pedophilia. So if you're going by that metric, then you'd be able to bring into the fray a whole host of sins.

[Hank]

Yeah, there needs to be a limiting principle that's missing there.

[John Piper]

He did address homosexuality because he addressed the porneia codes found in Leviticus. We read those porneia codes in our previous episode, but in Leviticus again, the underlying principle of all of the porneia codes is in Leviticus 19:2, you shall be holy, for I the Lord your God, I'm holy. And so every rule, every command that God gives in regards to our sexuality is about holiness. It's about representing the God in whose image we're made. So in Matthew 19:9, Jesus says, and I say to you, whoever divorces his wife except for anybody know. Well, and you may have in your mind adultery, but it says unfaithfulness. Yeah, it says, except for immorality. That's the word porneia. And that refers to a whole host of sexual sins going back to the porneicos in Leviticus. So Jesus says, these are the valid reasons for divorce, and that's a whole host of sins. It's not just literally cheating on your wife, because maybe you're a man who is married to a woman and you have a homosexual relationship with another man. So it's the porneia code. Furthermore. Yeah, he condemned the sin of porneia in Mark 7. So that would be first of all to say that argument falls flat because he didn't address bestiality, but he did address homosexuality by including in the porneia code. And then furthermore, you can't pit the Son against the Father. Meaning Jesus says, I and the Father are one. So even sometimes there was a guy that commented and said, the one who's outlawing homosexuality is the Father in the Old Testament. And Jesus never does that in the New Testament. But Jesus says in the New Testament, in John 10:30, I and the Father are one. Which means what? That when God punished the sin of sodom in Genesis 19, who was there?

[Hank]

Jesus.

[John Piper]

Jesus was there. He wasn't going, God, don't do this. God, don't do this. Why are you always so hard on people? No, Jesus. Jesus was there. And so we can't pit the Father against the Son, nor the Son against the Father. And Jesus reaffirms the biblical ethic for sex and marriage in Matthew 19 very clearly.

[Hank]

Well, and I want to keep building on this and maybe pulling on this thread. So you mentioned the codes laid out in Leviticus 19, but didn't Jesus come to completely, like, abolish the entire law? I mean, I'm wearing a shirt that has multiple fabrics in it. Am I now in sin?

[Podcast Announcer]

Probably.

[John Piper]

What is that?

[Hank]

I shouldn't have introduced that angle.

[John Piper]

That's seersucker.

[Hank]

I cut that. No, but more practically, what do we actually do? There's a bunch of admonitions and codes in there that we don't live by today. So why does that apply in other pieces? Not.

[John Piper]

Yeah, it's a great question, and obviously we're kind of flying high. But Jesus did not come to abolish the law. He came to fulfill the law. He came and obeyed the law perfectly. And Jesus himself said in Matthew 5 that one, not, not one jot or tittle shall be removed from the law. He says, in John 10 that the Scripture will not be broken. So God is not changing his view on things that he calls abominations. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever now. With that being said, it is true that in Mark 7 and in Acts 10, certain foods are declared clean. So the Bible makes that very clear. That's why we can eat bacon. Amen. In Romans 14, those holy days, those feasts and festivals that pointed to Christ, they've reached their fulfillment in Him. They were shadows. And Romans 14 says that those holy days are now optional. The Book of Hebrews says that the sacrificial system is now irrelevant. It's obsolete because Jesus was the final lamb of God. And you've heard me say this when I'm preaching. When Jesus says it is finished, it's not because his life was finished. It's because the sacrificial system is over. But there is a hermeneutic for why we are allowed to eat shellfish and pulled pork. And that is because we distinguish between civil, ceremonial, and moral laws. And those moral laws are still in effect, meaning at no point is do not steal no longer relevant because Jesus came to fulfill the law. No, those are moral laws. And we distinguish between the civil and ceremonial laws that were meant to distinguish Israel from the pagan nations and the moral laws that are meant to honor God because we are adhering to his holiness. I would say. Moreover, Jesus, Peter, and Paul, the New Testament writers, they all refer to Leviticus in their calls for holiness in their writing. That's why Peter says in First Peter 1, like the holy One who calls you, be holy in all your behavior, be holy, for I am holy. So they're going back, and Jesus himself quotes Leviticus 19 more than any other verse in the entirety of the Old Testament. So he's not saying, hey, these are irrelevant. These are outdated. These are ancient. These are antiquated. No, he came to fulfill the law. And he says, the Scripture will not be broken and not one jot or tittle will be removed.

[Hank]

It's a super helpful distinction. We're moving quickly here. It's almost. We should consider doing a few episodes on just misunderstood elements of interpreting the Old Testament. For the sake of clarity and moving forward. We started with potentially matters of just unfamiliarity with Scripture, moving to a little bit more of almost a systematic theology of how do these scriptures actually fit together? If we were to go up another level and just say, like, okay, but practically, Joni, if two consenting adults love each other, like, what's actually the harm in that? Who is that hurting and why is this, like, such a big deal?

[John Piper]

Well, I'd say first of all, it harms the individual. Romans 1 says they receive in their own persons the due penalty of the error. Like, meaning God's word promises that this detrimentally affects you. And it's just a good reminder that God's design is always for our best. So you have that. We talked about that a little bit in our previous episode, that this affects you from a health perspective. Youth surveys also find very high rates of suicidal ideation in trans teens, often reported between 40 to 60%. It harms children, it harms families. And when families are harmed, then nations are harmed because you're living in opposition to God's design. More could be said there. But whenever you deviate from God's clear design, it's detrimental and there are drastic consequences. And we're a nation that is reaping the consequences of that which we have sown.

[Hank]

There's a lot more to be said there to just keep us moving. I want to dive into, maybe more practical of. What do you say then, to the person who says, like, I'm tracking with all this. I'm, I believe, but I struggle with same sex attraction. What is. How would you start to counsel that person or respond to that person?

[John Piper]

Well, I think that's a good way to frame the question because I have had the conversation with people that have struggled with same sex attraction. So it's not like a foreign conversation. The way that I would maybe answer it quickly in a podcast is different in the way that I would engage with a person. It's a really important thing over, you know, a period of time and listen to their story. You know, like in.

[Hank]

There's a degree of wisdom there that we're not.

[John Piper]

Yeah, I would, I would begin by listening. You're asking me a question, so I'm going to begin by responding. And that's a little bit different than saying, okay, like, talk to me about this, you know, like, so I think there's a, first of all, there's a movement that, you know, people that identify as a gay Christian that they have same sex attraction desires, but they don't act on those desires, but they still identify by this label of being a gay Christian. And I would encourage those people. If I'm sitting across from some guy, I would say, well, first of all, I would not, I would not identify yourself, yourself that way, because if you're a Christian, 2nd Corinthians 5, 17 says, if anyone is in Christ, he's a New creation. You're a child of God, you're a saint, you're a temple of the Holy Spirit. To say you're a gay Christian is first of all an anthropological category. Like that's who I am. That's not who you are. Who you are is a child of God. And furthermore, you're identifying primarily by your sin. That's a fallen desire. Right. So that'd be like me, you know, or someone else referring to themselves as a pornographic Christian or a murderous Christian or a hateful Christian. You don't identify by the sin that Jesus died for. Now if you're just going to ask the question, if you say, well, if I'm same sex attracted, is that in of itself a sin? You know, that's probably a big question.

[Hank]

Yeah, that's in many ways the question behind the question.

[John Piper]

The question behind the question. And I would say, I think there's a misconception that as long as you don't act on the sin, on the temptation, then the desire is not sin itself. So the eighth commandment is do not steal. That's a sin of action. The tenth commandment is do not covet. That's a sin of desire. That's wanting something that you should not want. And that is what Paul says. It was the tenth commandment that led him to his understanding that he needed a savior. Wanting something that he should not want, wanting what someone else has. That is a sin of desire. And the Bible clearly describes sins of desires. Wanting something that you should not want as a sin. So is same sex attraction a sin? Well, it is sinful and it is a disordered fallen desire. There was no same sex attraction before the fall. So this is contrary to God's design and contrary to God's will. So this is something that we should seek to mortify. Now it's worth mentioning because some people are told same sex attraction is a morally neutral category. You're good to identify with it, just don't act on it. But being drawn this way is morally neutral. No, it's not morally neutral. It's something that you should mortify. This is the result of the fall. If it's not, then what are you going to tell the person who's attracted to minors? Just don't act on it. This is who you are. I'm a minor, you know, I'm a minor attracted person's Christian. No, no, you don't identify by your sin. This is disorder. So I think when churches say, hey, this is who you are, you're basically prisoning them. In a prison of the flesh, you're crippling their joy. You're not leading them to confess those things and that it actually ends up being really detrimental to the individual. So if you're. And. And obviously that's a longer conversation. Well, how do I fight those desires? And I think I've watched this in a. I saw something Rosario Butterfield. Butterfield said, but she said, you drive a fresh nail into it every single day, just like with any other sin and sinful desire. So I think that opens up a different can. Like, well, was Jesus. And we can go back and forth on this for a minute. Wasn't Jesus tempted in every way? We are tempted, yet without sin. And this is really the big reason why people say, no, the temptation itself is not wrong. It's when you act on that.

[Podcast Announcer]

Right?

[Hank]

Yeah, totally.

[John Piper]

So I want to just, maybe just turn to Hebrews for a moment. Hebrews says. Do you have Hebrews four already?

[Hank]

Yeah, I've got it.

[John Piper]

Yeah, read that verse.

[Hank]

Verse 15.

[John Piper]

Yeah, yeah.

[Hank]

So jumping in Hebrews 4, 15 says, for we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weakness, but one who's been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. And so if I'm just taking this passage and I'd be teeing up saying, well, so that means Jesus was tempted in every single way that I will ever be tempted. No.

[John Piper]

Well, no, if you extrapolate that when it says that he is tempted in every way. Yep. Without sin. Jesus had different temptations than we have, because big idea here is he had no internal sin nature. He was faced with temptation externally, meaning he was tempted by Satan. This is a well documented doctrine of church history. You know, send me back the last 500 years. Jesus had no sin nature. So he wasn't suppressing temptation in some way that we lust after a woman his entire life and then died for the woman that he was tempted to lust after, but he just never really engaged in immorality. So when it says that he is tempted in every way as to validate his deity and divinity. So let's just put it this way. Like if someone is tempted to look at pornography and they don't look at pornography, is that a desire that Jesus ever had? So he was tempted to look at, you know, pornography? I know there was no iPhones or digital mediums back then, but then he just didn't. I think that's sometimes how we think about sin.

[Hank]

Totally.

[John Piper]

As long as you don't do the action, the desire itself is not wrong. And we were talking about this before. Is the desire to look at pornography in of itself fallen? Yeah, absolutely. Because it stems from having a fallen, disordered nature. We're fallen, and so we have fleshly desires. Jesus had no fleshly desires. He wasn't like, oh, man, that woman's beautiful. I'd love to be with her. But it just. No, no, no, no, no.

[Hank]

Fight the flesh.

[John Piper]

No, no, he had no sin nature. That's why we always have to interpret Hebrews 4 with Hebrews 7:26. For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, like he had no sin nature. 2 Corinthians 5:21. He knew no sin. So it's called the impeccability of Jesus. Meaning a lot of us, I think a lot of people view Jesus as someone who could have sinned but did not sin. But if he could have sinned and did not sin, then you present the possibility that the plan of God could have been corrupted and prevented because he was not, you know, he could have been a sinner and therefore not qualified to be our substitute. No, he did not sin to prove that he could not sin because he was God. So he. He had external temptation, but he didn't have internal temptation. Jesus never lived with suppressed homosexual attraction, nor did he live with suppressed pedophilia, you know, because if you say, well, he was tempted in every way we are without sin. If you extrapolate that into infinity, there's no limiting. He was never tempted to cheat on his wife because he didn't have any wife. He was never tempted to abandon his kids. He didn't have any kids. So what's the point of the passage? It's to prove that he was. He endured temptation to validate his sinlessness. He was tempted in his humanity, but not able to sin because of his divinity. And I know that's what. That's the hypostatic union. Jesus wasn't half God, half man. He was truly God and truly man. But Jesus didn't live his life suppressing these temptations. So because they stem from fallen nature, any desire in your heart, even if it's not acted on. I want to look at pornography, but I'm not looking at pornography. You don't just confess. When you indulge in that, you confess the desire. The desire itself is not honoring to God. It's fallen, it's disordered. It's not how God designed me to be. And so, you know, the example was given was Jesus Lusting after the woman who poured the precious nard on Jesus feet and was wiping his feet with her hair and going, oh man, don't look, you know. No, he had no fallen nature. He was perfect, sinless, spotless, no flesh nature.

[Hank]

And there were a bunch of things there. Two things I think worth kind of re highlighting. One that's in many ways much more elevated view of our Savior that we can brush by and almost subconsciously adopt a false premise without being renewed by the totality of scripture, of balancing both Hebrews 4 and Hebrews 7. The second piece where we started that, which I want to kind of pull on again just briefly is that's a helpful clarification and push. I think a lot of people would probably identify or kind of throughout the lifeline of like, oh, it's a gay Christian, meaning they're celibate. And it's actually meant to be an encouragement. And your point being there being actually no, no, it's a contradiction in terms. Don't identify something that's been made new and in Christ with something that is.

[John Piper]

Yeah, there's multiple layers here.

[Hank]

Yeah, 100%. So then to bring this home for a second and land the plane, what do you do practically again? And how do you counsel someone who says, I'm tracking with all of this and I find myself under the temptation internally of same sex attraction?

[John Piper]

Yeah. Well, I think in some ways you go, how do you navigate someone with any internal temptation? You confess it to the Lord. You confess it to someone in your life that you trust that's going to walk with you. And like Rosaria said, you drive a fresh nail to mortify the flesh every single day. And you surround yourself with godly influences so that you don't make. And the big idea here is don't be at home with this sin. Don't say this is who you are. Because God's desire for everyone is that we be continually transformed into the image of Christ. And I think my fear with someone who identifies by their struggle is that their struggle becomes an old friend. And well, Paul says act like men to the Corinthian church. So he wants men to be masculine, he wants women to be feminine. So there is not just this neutral category. No, you pursue Christ likeness. And I think a lot of this is maybe just in pursuing holiness in general. A lot of people seek for holiness in a compartmentalized fashion. Meaning I want victory over one thing in my life. God doesn't just take. Very rarely. I don't think God just removes all temptation from you. Sometimes. Let's go back to the pornography analogy. God take away this desire. No, no, no. God doesn't take away your desires. He renews your desires. He transforms our affections. He changes what we love as we renew our mind in the truth of scripture. So I'm not trying to be simplistic, but I'm also not trying to be overly complicated that you confess to sin, you take it to the Lord, you take it to godly people around you, and you put a fresh nail in it every single day. And there will be, I think, besetting sins that we struggle and Lord willing, we find victory in until we meet them face to face. But I think you just say, lord, help me, help me, help me, knowing that if your understanding of same sex attraction is neutral, then you're going to be idle in your engagement of it. But sin is not idle, it's aggressive. So I know a lot of people that I mean a lot, half a dozen, 10 that said that this was a struggle for them. They were told it was a morally neutral category and now they're on full on homosexual relationships because it was presented as something no big deal. But sin is never passive, it's always active. And so that's why we're called, to mortify the flesh in whatever way that appears in our life.

[Hank]

And it's just, I think, a practical place to land this. We mentioned, even in so many of the comparisons, like someone who's plagued by lust in the heterosexual camp, the principle I think that you're hitting on is much wider of like, if I struggle with impatience, the answer is not, well, I guess I'm just an impatient person for the rest of my life. Like, that is not a biblical response. And the broader point being, it just strikes me hearing you walk through it, how often this conversation is so dominated by self reflection as opposed to the answer of like, lift your gaze, where did this, who is actually providing you victory over these things? It is not yourself. Most fundamentally, it is Christ.

[John Piper]

Yeah, and I think, just saying, you know, if you ask me if I'm sitting across from someone that maybe they're despairing. You know, like, how can God use my life? How can God change my life? What can God do with my life? I would want them to know that, hey, God can, God can use your life. And sometimes I feel like some people say, hey, this is just a sin. Why don't you talk about gluttony? Well, not every sin is the same. This is what the Bible describes as an abomination. Now with that, I Don't want to react to everybody saying, hey, why do you know all sin is the same? And go, you know, this is really serious. To also not tell them, hey, no, no, no, you can be used by God. You're not your past, you're not your, you know, God forgave you. If you're in Christ, you're a new creation.

[Hank]

And that is so important. We shouldn't blow by that. Regardless of your past, like, there is no past. There's no one listening that's, you know, beyond repair.

[John Piper]

All of my righteousness before God is his righteousness. And all of the righteousness of someone who came out of homosexual polygamy, you know, like is the righteousness of God, meaning, like, I bring nothing to the table salvifically, and neither do they. And I love this passage. In Isaiah 56, verse 3, God says, Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say, the Lord will surely separate me from his people. Nor let the eunuch say, behold, I am a dry tree. I love. God says, don't let the eunuch say, behold, I'm a dry tree. Meaning what? There's no purpose for my life. I can't do anything. A eunuch is someone who has literally cut off his male organs. So don't let them say, my past is checkered, my body is disfigured, I've cut my organs. I'm a dry tree. There's nothing for me to offer God. God continues and says, for thus says the Lord to the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths and choose what pleases me and hold fast my covenant. To them I will give in my house and within my walls, a memorial and a name better than that of sons and daughters. I will give them an everlasting name. And here's the play on words which will not be cut off. You're not damaged goods to God. God is so kind. He says, I'm not just going to let you into glory. I'm going to give you a memorial. I'm going to give you a new name. What does a new name mean? God says, I'm going to rewrite your story. I'm not just going to cleanse you, I'm going to wash you. I'm going to rename you. I'm going to use your Life. And Joel 2. 25 says, the Lord will make up for the years that the locusts have eaten, meaning all the years of your life that maybe were spent in immorality. God says, no, I'm going to use those you come to me. Don't say you're a dry tree. You're useful to God. God is a loving God, and his arms are not folded in heaven. Look, you know, in the sense of he does hate our sin. Psalm says he hates sinners. But when we come to him in repentance, he sees us as if we live the perfect life of Jesus Christ. And so I want anybody despairing over what they've done or who they are right now to hear that. And Jesus says, I stand at the door and knock. He's an eager Savior, and he's not looking at people up and down, seeing who morally or externally looks the most qualified for entrance into his kingdom. He comes for the sick, and that includes me, and it includes the homosexual sinner. And Jesus calls them to repentance because homosexuality is a sin. And Jesus came into the world to save sinners.

[Hank]

That's really good news.

[John Piper]

It is good news.

[Hank]

It's encouraging. And those are some helpful. Hopefully those are helpful tools as folks are listening to this for some common rebuttals. Again, the part two of the biblical grounding we laid previously. But maybe some more practical responses to the most common questions people might have on this. So thanks, Johnny.

[John Piper]

Yeah, thanks so much, Hank.