Kanye sexually assaulted me, says model, but he says it’s art

Summary

Fame Under Fire – “Kanye sexually assaulted me, says model, but he says it’s art”

Host: Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty
Guest: Jennifer Ahn (model, plaintiff), Jesse Weinstein (attorney)
Date: June 10, 2026
Platform: BBC Sounds

---

Episode Overview

This episode investigates the high-profile civil case of Jennifer Ahn, a model and former “America’s Next Top Model” contestant, who alleges that Kanye West (Ye) sexually assaulted her on a music video set in 2010. Kanye West claims the incident was an act of artistic expression conducted with implicit consent. Host Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty speaks in-depth with Ahn for her account of the alleged assault, her motives for filing suit 14 years later, and her struggle for accountability. The episode also includes insights from Ahn’s attorney, Jesse Weinstein, on the nuanced legal battle over the intersection of art, consent, and workplace safety in creative industries.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Jennifer Ahn’s Account: Her Background and the Day of the Incident

• Early Career and Life Before the Incident

  • Jennifer introduces herself as a young, ambitious model in 2009, fresh off her success as a finalist in “America’s Next Top Model” and new to the entertainment industry.

    “2009, Jen, I was on the 13th season of America's Next Top Model... I had moved from Philadelphia to New York, pursuing my dream as an actor.” (02:12 – 02:32)

• The Music Video Audition and Excitement

  • She excitedly describes getting a background actor role in La Roux’s “In for the Kill” music video.

    “I was so excited because every single job was a step closer to where I was going.” (03:09)

• Atmosphere and Setting at the Chelsea Hotel

  • She recounts the vibrant, bustling set environment, camaraderie among models, and being comfortable, even in lingerie, right up until Kanye arrived.

    “We were all just, like, chatting, having a good time, looking at our different outfits and talking about how we were gonna pose in them.” (03:27 – 04:10)

• Kanye West’s Arrival and Sudden Shift

  • The mood shifts drastically when Kanye arrives—chaos erupts, he chooses actors for a scene, assumes creative control, and brings a charged presence.

    “Everyone starts running around the Chelsea Hotel. They're like, ‘Kanye's coming. Kanye's coming.’” (04:35)

• Alleged Assault: Details of the Event

  • Physical Actions: Kanye stops playback, removes the other models, sits Jennifer in front of the camera, and forcibly chokes her, smears her makeup, and sticks his fingers in her mouth in a manner simulating oral sex—without warning or consent.

  • Emotional Response: Jennifer describes feeling immobilized, shocked, and acutely vulnerable, surrounded by a silent roomful of crew members.

    “He just reaches a hand out and starts choking me... then starts smearing my makeup all over my face and sticking his hands inside my mouth... I was actively... hiding from him... I remember feeling, like, so suffocated, like, unsure, like, scared.” (06:35 – 08:19)

  • Sense of Isolation and Powerlessness

    “No one's stopping it, so just let it happen. What are you gonna do?... They don’t care about me.” (08:49 – 09:16)

• Kanye’s Declaration and Scene End

  • Kanye abruptly ends the scene with a declaration:

    “He, like, yelled something like ‘this is art. I'm Picasso.’ And... he was just, like, okay, I got what I want. But he just abruptly got up and left.” (10:13)

Consent, Industry Culture, and Aftermath

• Preceding Consent or Warning

  • Jennifer was not informed about any potential for simulated sex or physical contact, as would typically be disclosed in casting notices—even in 2010.

    “Even back then, in a casting notice, they would tell you before you auditioned for the project: nudity, simulated sex, sexual situations... That was not given to me.” (11:48)

• Industry Power Dynamics

  • Despite many witnesses present, Jennifer explains her sense of helplessness was reinforced by the lack of intervention and the perceived impunity granted to Kanye.

• Immediate Aftermath and Industry Silence

  • Ahn called her agent immediately and briefly spoke to La Roux, who apologized and promised the footage would not air.
  • No further follow-up from any production members, with Ahn’s only contact being a failed attempt to retrieve her shoes left on set.

    “They tried to return my shoes, which I did not get back. That was it.” (15:02–15:11)

• On Not Going to Police

  • Jennifer did not report to authorities, citing the futility of challenging someone so powerful in 2010’s industry climate.

    “I was in a room full of all these industry important people, and nothing was happening. What were the cops gonna do?” (14:33)

Revisiting the Incident and Filing Suit (2024)

• Motivation to File Years Later

  • Shift in legal and cultural landscape post-Weinstein encouraged Jennifer to seek justice.

    “After the Weinstein case, I was like, you know what? This is an opening. Things can happen.” (15:58)

• Contact with La Roux

  • Jennifer reached out to La Roux years later to corroborate her story—with La Roux confirming what she witnessed and expressing her own trauma:

    “I was in the room behind the monitor begging the directors and everyone else to do something, but everyone was scared of him and did nothing, which is where my trauma comes from.” (17:35)

  • La Roux also recalled a chilling comment from Kanye:

    “He whispered to me, ‘I bet you think I just put women back about 10 years.’ I responded, ‘you just put women back about 500 years.’” (17:55)

Kanye’s Legal Position and Public Response

• No Denial, But Framing as “Art”

  • In legal filings, Kanye neither denies the events nor admits wrongdoing, framing the incident as collaborative, boundary-pushing art to which Jennifer consented.

    “They say that set was a collaborative atmosphere... that you were a consenting member of that scene. Is that how you remember it?”
    Jennifer: “No. I don't believe that any collaboration was happening once Kanye entered the set... there was no concern for my safety or my comfort or even my consent.” (12:46)

• Retaliation Motive Alleged

  • Kanye’s legal team accused Jennifer of using litigation because she disagreed with his controversial public statements—an allegation she refutes.

    “I'm bringing a lawsuit because he did something to me that I want him to be held accountable for. I think those are two different things.” (15:30)

• Effect on Her Career

  • Ahn details emotional damage and lost career opportunities, particularly avoiding any roles involving intimacy on set.

    “I've said no to huge jobs, little jobs... any job that pretty much touches an uncomfortable situation for me.” (19:59)

• On Kanye’s Apologies and Mental Health Discussion

  • Jennifer is unmoved by Kanye’s recent public apologies and focus on mental health, emphasizing that apologies alone are insufficient for grave actions.

    “He has done some things that need a little bit more than an apology. I think it's a good place to start, and I think he should.” (19:15)

---

Legal Arguments and Attorney Commentary

Attorney Jesse Weinstein’s Perspective (23:19–28:49)

• Uniqueness of the Case

  • This case is unusual because the alleged incident happened in front of multiple witnesses—rare for sexual assault cases, especially in entertainment.

    “There's not usually dozens of people... watching what happens to our clients in real time.” (23:19)

• On the “Art” Defense

  • Weinstein sees danger in legal arguments that would shield any abuse as long as it’s performed in the name of art:

    “There's a line... this is a workplace incident. Jen was working, and there is a difference between art and sexual assault... I think that's the dangerous slippery slope on the other side.” (24:05)

• Rejection of "Emulation" as Exculpatory

  • Even acts meant to emulate art can still be assault if done without consent.

    “You can emulate certain things, and it can still rise to the level of sexual assault, it can still rise to the level of an assault...” (25:07)

• Constitutional and Anti-SLAPP Defenses

  • Kanye’s legal team frames the video as a matter of public interest and protected speech. Weinstein disagrees such protection should preclude accountability for assault:

    “I don't think that just because he's calling it art... that he's protected against allegations of sexual assault.” (26:54)

• Precedent and Broader Implications

  • Letting the case be dismissed under artistic immunity, Weinstein argues, would set a “dangerous precedent,” emboldening those in power to abuse with impunity.

    “A ruling like this... is going to create a lot of fear, but also a lot of confidence from the people who are in positions of power to just do whatever they want to unscathed.” (27:22)

• Why Speak Out Now

  • Weinstein expresses hope that Ahn’s public narrative will empower other victims.

    “At minimum show them a little bit of support, but maybe give them the push that they need to go and talk to somebody and pursue accountability.” (28:27)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jennifer on Being Frozen and Powerless:

  “No one's stopping it, so just let it happen. What are you gonna do? ...They don’t care about me.” (09:16)

• La Roux’s corroboration:

  “I saw it. I was in the room behind the monitor begging the directors and everyone else to do something, but everyone was scared of him and did nothing, which is where my trauma comes from.” (17:35)

• Kanye's supposed statement:

  “He whispered to me, 'I bet you think I just put women back about 10 years.' I responded, 'you just put women back about 500 years.'” (17:55)

• On the dangers of the “it’s art” defense (Jennifer):

  “I think it’s really disgusting that anyone would try to use art as a reason that they can sexually assault someone. And I think it would set a precedent that would endanger so many people...” (20:51)

• Jesse Weinstein, on art versus assault:

  “There is a difference between art and sexual assault. This was an unscripted moment where he showed up on set and did something that Jen had no clue was coming.” (24:05)

• Jennifer, if she could go back to her 2010 self:

  “You need to fight this because you can't let this happen again. So you went through this for a reason. Make sure you affect change. That's what I would say.” (22:23)

---

Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | | --- | --- | | 02:12 | Jennifer Ahn describes her life and career before the incident | | 04:35 | Kanye’s arrival and shift in set atmosphere | | 06:35–10:13 | Detailed account of the alleged assault | | 12:46 | Discussion of consent, collaboration, and power on set | | 15:30 | Motivation to file the lawsuit, countering Kanye’s legal claims | | 17:35 | La Roux’s corroboration, quoted messages, and emotional fallout | | 19:59 | Impact of the incident on Jennifer’s career and financial circumstances | | 20:51 | Jennifer’s reaction to the “it’s art” legal defense | | 23:19 | Interview with attorney Jesse Weinstein begins | | 24:05 | Attorney's perspective on “art” vs. assault | | 27:17 | Potential legal precedent and its ramifications | | 28:27 | Importance of Jennifer telling her story publicly | | 22:23 | Jennifer’s message to her younger self |

---

Conclusion

This episode of Fame Under Fire provides a harrowing, meticulously detailed account of Jennifer Ahn’s alleged assault by Kanye West and the ongoing fight to hold powerful figures accountable when abuses are excused as “art.” With both personal testimony and legal analysis, it spotlights the complexities of consent, power imbalance, and the shifting boundaries of accountability in the #MeToo era. The conversation with Jennifer Ahn is candid, emotional, and impactful, while attorney Jesse Weinstein’s commentary raises critical questions about artistic freedom, workplace safety, and the responsibilities of public figures.

Transcript

[Zing Singh]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

[Jennifer Ahn]

Host unforgettable backyard BBQs with savings from Whole Foods Market. Get the good times going with made in house chicken or pork sausages and

[Zing Singh]

ready to cook kebabs for hassle free flavor. Grab tasty flatbreads and their new balsamic chicken salad in the prepared foods department. Keep things fresh with organic red cherries,

[Jennifer Ahn]

strawberries and peaches at their peak. And and stock up on bug sprays and sun care.

[Zing Singh]

Must haves make your summer sizzle at Whole Foods Market. Hi, I'm Zing Sing. And I'm Simon Jack. And together we host Good Bad Billionaire, the podcast exploring how some of the world's richest people made their fortunes. And we're back for a new season with a brand new lineup of billionaires. Yep. Global pop icon Beyonce, Hollywood movie director Steven Spielberg, football superstar Cristiano Ronaldo, to name just a few. And as ever, we're asking you to decide whether they're good, bad, or just another billionaire. That's good Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Hello and welcome back to Fame Under Fire from BBC Sounds with me, Anishka Matandadawati. Now, a couple of weeks ago, we did something unusual. We didn't bring you a full episode. I told you I was away and I'd bring you up to date later. Well, now it is later. And I can tell you that I was in New York speaking exclusively to a woman called Jennifer Ahn. She has filed a legal claim alleging Kanye west, now known as Ye, sexually assaulted her on the set of a music video in 2010. Now, this is a civil case, not criminal. Remember, when it's a criminal case, the defendant's freedom is on the line. And when it's civil, it's their money. We, of course, contacted Kanye's legal reps and we haven't had a response. But in his legal filings, we can see that he doesn't deny it took place, but he believes it was part of an artistic performance that Jen didn't object to. We've also offered him an interview. Just a warning. Some of what you are about to hear is graphic and might be distressing for some listeners, but here's what Jen told me in New York. So, Jen, we're here to talk about something that happened in 2010, but I want to take you back to 2009. Can you tell me about who you were then?

[Jennifer Ahn]

Man 2009, Jen, I was on the 13th season of America's Next Top Model competing to be. And I got in third, fourth place. And I had moved from Philadelphia to New York, pursuing my dream as an actor.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

When you came out of it, you continued modeling. You'd made a name for yourself. People knew who you were, and you continued to get modeling opportunities. And then 2010, you saw a casting call for a music video. Can you talk me through what happened there?

[Jennifer Ahn]

An audition came in for LaRue. It was for her music video, and I loved her music. So, yeah, I auditioned for it, and I got it.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Can you remember what the casting call said? What was the role?

[Jennifer Ahn]

So for that job, I was technically hired as a background actor, but I worked as a model.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

And when you got the casting call, you did the fitting, you got the job. Were you excited?

[Jennifer Ahn]

I was so excited. I was so excited because every single job was a step closer to where I was going. Yeah, I loved it.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

If we go back to the beginning of that day. Okay, so when you arrive on the set for a big music video, Larue in for the kill, what did it look like?

[Jennifer Ahn]

Well, the hotel itself is just so grand or was so grand. And there were all of these production trucks outside. So you can imagine the hum of the trucks and, you know, ramps built in where all the stairs are. So there are just, like, so many people wheeling huge carts of, you know, lighting equipment and camera equipment up and down this, like, pretty small hotel. It has, like, a 20s feel to it. And I don't know, it was just. It was fun. And we were all just, like, chatting, having a good time, like, looking at our different outfits and, like, talking about, like, how we were gonna pose in them.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

So you got there, you were having a good time. You were wearing your lingerie on that day?

[Jennifer Ahn]

Yes.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Do you feel comfortable in that outfit?

[Jennifer Ahn]

As a model, I am used to being in very little clothing. So in terms of comfort, before the incident, I was comfortable.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

So talk to me about what happened when Kanye west arrived.

[Jennifer Ahn]

So we are literally in the middle of shooting a music video, and we're probably hours into it, and all of a sudden, all the crew members that were focusing on shooting our scene stop, and everyone starts running around the Chelsea Hotel. They're like, kanye's coming. Kanye's coming. So the models all just go into holding, and we're just waiting to see what we need to do. And shortly after that, we were lined up in the hallway. Kanye came through, and he chose three girls to be in the scene with him. And then we were led into the room where we were shooting the scene. And all of the crew members were also shuffled into that room. The room had a sofa on it and a chair. He sat one girl, me, himself, and another girl on the chair on the sofa. And then he started the playback, which is the song that runs while you're shooting the music video. And then he couldn't remember his lines. So instead of saying his lines, he just kept going, rah, rah, rah, rah, rah, rah, rah. And then after that, he yelled, cut. He had the other two models leave the room. He pulled a chair up in front of the camera, and he pulled a chair beside the camera, and he had me sit in the chair in front of the camera. And I didn't know what was going to happen. I was given no direction. I was just told to sit in this chair. And then playback started. And then all of a sudden, he just reaches a hand out and starts, like, choking me. And I'm just not sure what's happening. And then he pulled his other hand out and starts choking me with both hands, and then starts smearing my makeup all over my face and sticking his hands inside of my mouth, which, I think. I mean, it simulated, like, oral sex. It started. It started where he went up to my face and he was, like, smearing my makeup on my face and. Okay.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Do you need a minute?

[Jennifer Ahn]

Yeah.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Sorry. It's okay.

[Jennifer Ahn]

He was smearing the makeup on my face in a way that felt like he was trying to. I don't know, smearing the makeup all over my face in a way that just felt wrong. He started sticking his fingers in my mouth, and I feel like he was, like, trying to touch as much as he could, and I was actively. My tongue was, like. Like, hiding from him. And he just, like, found everything, you know what I'm saying? Like, I couldn't.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

So he was pushing his fingers, you say, quite far into your mouth? Yeah.

[Jennifer Ahn]

I mean, and everywhere. He, like. Yeah.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

You say he had his hand around your throat. Could you breathe properly? Do you remember any discomfort like that?

[Jennifer Ahn]

I remember feeling, like, so suffocated, like, unsure, like, scared.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

And were you aware of anything else that was happening on the set at the time? Was anybody speaking, trying to get involved? What can you remember?

[Jennifer Ahn]

I remember everyone was so still and just, like, staring at me. That's all I remember.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

What's going through your head when that's happening?

[Jennifer Ahn]

I think it's, like, a million things. I'm 24. This is like. Like, sort of my first foray into the industry. And in the moment, I'm like, Well, I can't. I can't stop this. What do I do? I stopped the whole production. What? Little old me. They don't care about me. No one's stopping it, so just let it happen. What are you gonna do? You're gonna stop, and he's gonna stop.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Did you try and say anything?

[Jennifer Ahn]

No, I just stared at him like, what are you doing? Why are you doing this? And then when I got no reaction from him, I just started looking around the room like someone. It was a room full of people, and I was looking around, like, hoping that someone would see me and be like, hey, like, maybe we should stop.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

And was he. Was he making direct eye contact with you while he was doing this, or.

[Jennifer Ahn]

I remember him looking at me, like, really intensely and, like, licking his lips a lot. My face was, like, so close to his. You know what I mean? Like, the camera was, like. Like inches from my face, and his face was right next to it.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

What happens? How does this end?

[Jennifer Ahn]

At some point, he, like, reached, like, a. Like, a point that I. I assume he was very happy with himself. And he, like, yelled something like, this is art. I'm Picasso. And shortly after that, I think he was just like, okay, I got what I want. But he just. He just abruptly got up and left.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

When he reached out his hand to grab you, did you pull away or.

[Jennifer Ahn]

No, I didn't, because I was. I didn't know what I was doing, but I was like, okay, this is. I just. Yeah. No, I was more frozen. Like, so many. It's like I could lose my job, but I could also, I don't know, mess this up in an even bigger way. What if the weirdest things run through your head when something like that happens?

[Anishka Matandadawati]

And when he was moving the chairs, moving the cameras, setting the scene, was he talking to anybody else on the set?

[Jennifer Ahn]

He was just like, I want this here. I want this here. I want, like, you know, he was just telling people what to do.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

And did he, at any point leading up to what you say took place, speak to you about what he was about to do? What he was trying to emulate, as he says he was trying to emulate a scene in American Psycho. Did he talk to you at all?

[Jennifer Ahn]

No, I was given zero direction. I had no idea what my purpose was on that set for him.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

And at the beginning of the day, had you been made aware that somebody might touch you during the filming? Had there been a discussion with your agent or anything like that?

[Jennifer Ahn]

No. And, you know, back in 2010, there. There wasn't as much protection for actors as there is now. But I will say that even back then, in a casting notice, they would tell you before you auditioned for the project, nudity, simulated sex, sexual situations. Yeah. I mean, you get all that information beforehand, and that was not given to me. So, no, I had no idea.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

How many people do you think were in the room?

[Jennifer Ahn]

I feel like if I could, like, look at, like, what it was like for me to be in a classroom as a child. It was like that sort of. There was a lot of people in the room.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

And we asked Kanye if he spoke to you at all before what you say took place happened, and we haven't got a response. But we do know in some of the legal filings what his lawyers have written. They say that set was a collaborative atmosphere where they were pushing the boundaries, the artistic boundaries, and that you were a consenting member of that scene. Is that how you remember it?

[Jennifer Ahn]

I worked with the directors before Kanye showed up on set. Anything that was asked of me was asked of me, and it was offered to me before I was forced to do it. So do I agree that it was a collaborative set? Absolutely. Do I believe that it was collaborative once Kanye entered the set? No. I don't believe that any collaboration was happening whatsoever. There was no concern for my safety or my comfort or even my consent. So, no, I did not consent to it. I was on the phone with my agent right after I left the room, and then LaRue was walking down the hallway. So I got off the phone with my agent, and I went over to LaRue, and she was like, I'm so sorry that happened to you. That's horrific. I'm so sorry. And then I was like, you're not gonna air that, right? Like, you're not gonna share that with anyone. Cause I can't have my mom see that. And she was like, no, of course not. No, I would never.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

And did anybody else, the directors, producers, speak to you about what happened and what was gonna happen with the footage?

[Jennifer Ahn]

Not that I remember, no.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Did you consider going to the police?

[Jennifer Ahn]

No.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Why not?

[Jennifer Ahn]

I didn't consider going to the police because I was in a room full of people when it happened. So I guess I felt like, what recourse could there be? And why would I put myself through that when nothing is going to happen to him?

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Why did you think nothing would happen to him?

[Jennifer Ahn]

Because it was 2010. Not enough people were concerned about protecting women and sexual assault and the accountability of those perpetrators. So, yeah, I didn't know what the point was. I was in a room full of all these industry important people, and nothing was happening. What were the cops gonna do?

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Did anybody reach out to you in the following weeks from the music set?

[Jennifer Ahn]

No, I left my shoes there, and they tried to return my shoes, which I did not get back.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

That was it.

[Jennifer Ahn]

Mm.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Now, when you read Kanye's lawyers responses, they offer up a motive for why you filed this lawsuit. They say you're weaponizing the Gender Motivated Violence act to silence Kanye because you don't like some of the contra controversial things he's tweeted and said in recent years. How do you respond to that?

[Jennifer Ahn]

I think a lot of people don't like a lot of things that Kanye said, and that's not a reason for me to bring a lawsuit. I'm bringing a lawsuit because he did something to me that I want him to be held accountable for. I think those are two different things.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

So you say this took place in 2010, and you filed your lawsuit in 2024. What was going through your head in 2024 that you wanted to file a lawsuit 14 years after what you said happened?

[Jennifer Ahn]

I didn't do anything immediately because I didn't think that anything could happen. Right. That anyone would get my back or that there would be any recourse for Kanye. But then after that, I did start looking for law firms, and I called law firms because after the Weinstein case, I was like, you know what? This is an opening. Things can happen.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

And part of that was you reaching out to Leroux. Do you have a relationship? Did you stay friends or anything?

[Jennifer Ahn]

No, I don't have a relationship with Larue, really, other than this experience that we shared, in a way.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

So you decide to file this lawsuit, and you're going to reach out to Larue, who is a world renowned artist. Right. You don't have a relationship with her, and there's no friendship there. What's going through your head when you send that message?

[Jennifer Ahn]

I was literally praying. I was praying that she remembered it. I was praying that it was as big of a moment in her life as much as mine, and that she didn't forget about me and that she cared and that it affected her the same way that it affected me, because there was hardly any conversation afterwards, you know, so can I see them? Yeah, of course. Yeah.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Right. So this is with her official, official Instagram account?

[Jennifer Ahn]

Yes.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Do you mind if I read it?

[Jennifer Ahn]

No, please do.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

So you're asking if she remembers what happened, and you're telling her that you want to file the lawsuit. So you guys are messaging back and forth here with her. This is your official account with her official account. You're asking her basically to corroborate your claims.

[Jesse Weinstein]

Yes.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

She says in one message, quote, I saw it. I was in the room behind the monitor begging the directors and everyone else to do something, but everyone was scared of him and did nothing, which is where my trauma comes from. You're saying, I'm crying. I'm crying so hard. You apologize to her. You say, I'm so sorry. I didn't even think about your experience through it. She says, I'm going to directly quote, here. He knew exactly what he was doing. He thought it was funny, and I can't deal with that. He whispered to me, quote, I bet you think I just put women back about 10 years. I responded, quote, you just put women back about 500 years. And then she says, he's a expletive piece of work. So did you know they'd had that interaction?

[Jennifer Ahn]

Not until that text.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

How did reading that message affect you?

[Jennifer Ahn]

I think I cried so hard. I cried because, you know, to be honest with you, I was, like, kind of mad at her, you know, Like, I was like, you're. The. You're. This is your music video. You know? So I guess it made me realize, like, he traumatized everybody on set.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Recently, he came out and apologized to the African American community, apologized to the Jewish community for some of the very controversial statements he's made in public and on Twitter. X, formerly Twitter. Did you see that?

[Jennifer Ahn]

I did not. I do not follow Kanye in hearing that.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Now he's kind of trying to make apologies, and he said he's finding his way back home. Says he takes full accountability for some of the stuff he said. Speaks about his mental health issues with bipolar, how does that make you feel? How do you reflect on that?

[Jennifer Ahn]

Mental health issues are real. If he needs help, he should get help. In the meantime, he has done some things that need a little bit more than an apology. I think it's a good place to start, and I think he should.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

When you file a civil lawsuit in the US you have to have damages. It's just one of the mechanisms that you have to have for the complaint to work. Right. You have to have something that says, this is how you damaged me, and this is why I deserve justice in the form of compensation. That's the system now. You talk about emotional distress. You talk about monetary damages. Can you describe to me how this has lost you money?

[Jennifer Ahn]

Yeah. I think as an actor, the more you're willing to Audition for the more opportunities you have. The fact that I, for almost my entire career, was not willing to work on. If you want a long standing job, it's going to get romantic in acting. So I've said no to huge jobs, little jobs, any job that pretty much touches an uncomfortable situation for me.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

We did reach out to Kanye for his perspective, but a lot of that we get in the legal filings from his lawyers. And one of the arguments ultimately is that there's no denial that this action took place, but essentially that it's art. How does that make you feel when you hear that argument?

[Jennifer Ahn]

I think it's really disgusting that anyone would try to use art as a reason that they can sexually assault someone. And I think it would set a precedent that would endanger so many people when I'm over here trying to do the complete opposite of protecting people that have not had to go through a situation like this before.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

And another element of their argument is that you voluntarily continued in the scene, you didn't try to leave, you didn't verbally object to what was happening, and therefore you participated in their argument in the creation of this art, which they say is constitutionally protected under the First Amendment. Do you think that you made it clear that you were objecting to what was happening in that scene?

[Jennifer Ahn]

Yes. And I think that if you ask anyone else in the room, they would agree with me.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Did other people express to you that they felt that you didn't consent to what was happening?

[Jennifer Ahn]

Yeah, like when I spoke to the makeup artist, I remember her just saying that that was horrible, that that should have never happened to me.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

You were at an early stage in this process. Right. Civil lawsuits can take a long time. You haven't done discovery yet. We don't know if this will proceed to trial. If you could go back to the gen that was on that music set, like you say, left alone after he'd walked off, what would you say to her?

[Jennifer Ahn]

What I would say to myself, I would say you need to fight this because you can't let this happen again. So you went through this for a reason. Make sure you affect change. That's what I would say.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Thank you.

[Jennifer Ahn]

Thanks.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

That was Jennifer Ahn telling me her story. Now, we contacted umg, Universal Music Group, the directors on the set at the time, the makeup artist and LaRue to respond to all the allegations Jen has made. And we've not had a response. Now, after I spoke to Jen, I also interviewed her attorney, Jesse Weinstein, about the different components that make up this case and how he responds to Kanye's legal arguments. Jesse, you've been representing Jen since 2024. And I first reached out to you pretty much exactly a year ago while I was here covering the Diddy trial. And when you spoke to me, you said that this civil lawsuit was quite unique. What did you mean by that?

[Jesse Weinstein]

So we took our time before filing because we invested in a private investigator to help us gather witnesses, documents, and corroborating evidence. That's part of building the case. That's probably what makes it most unique compared to other cases, is that there's not usually dozens of people in an audience sort of setting watching what happens to our clients in real time.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

And I asked Jen this as well. But they do frame this as quite a dangerous lawsuit towards art because it says to permit such claims to proceed would mean that every actor, director, and artist involved in provocative film, theater, or music video productions, whether depicting violence, sexuality, or both, could face retroactive criminalization and personal liability whenever a performer later regrets or reimagines their participation. How do you respond to that?

[Jesse Weinstein]

There's a line. This might be in the limelight as an entertainment case, but this is a workplace incident. Jen was working, and there is a difference between art and sexual assault. This was an unscripted moment where he showed up on set and he did something that Jen had no clue was coming. Jen had no clue that she was even going to have physical contacts with him before this incident even happened. And so I think that it's a pretty broad statement to say that everybody who calls themselves an artist should just be able to walk into a space where creativity is happening and do whatever they want and call it art. I think that's the dangerous slippery slope on the other side of the coin.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Something else they focus in on is the language used in the original complaint. They say that you frequently use the word emulate. He was trying to emulate a scene from American Psycho he was trying to recreate, pay homage to. Not that he was trying to actually do the thing depicted in those scenes. And therefore, there's a difference. There is the creation of art where he was copying another piece of art. How do you respond to that?

[Jesse Weinstein]

Again, I disagree. And it's for the court to decide. The case is fate, literally. On this question of whether this was art or whether this was a sexual assault. And I completely disagree as legal counsel, that somebody actually has to be forcing her to have oral sex with him in order for this to be sexual assault. You can emulate certain things, and it can still rise to the level of sexual assault, it can still rise to the level of an assault, which is it doesn't even have to be a sexual assault under the Gender Motivated Violence act, by the way. If we prove that this was an assault because she was a woman, we still meet our burden of proof. And so I don't put too much weight into their argument that there's a difference. There's some sort of a distinction.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Well, they draw on the fact that Jen recalls him saying, this is art. I am like Picasso as an example, that he was articulating that what he was doing in that moment was creating art again.

[Jesse Weinstein]

And I think they're conflating what his impression of what he was doing was with what was actually going on. Even if he somehow convinced himself that what he was doing in art was art. The story that the evidence tells was that he targeted her and he committed an act of sexual violence against her in front of a camera that he orchestrated.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Now, Kanye's lawyers say that this falls squarely under New York's anti slapp laws. Now, that means strategic lawsuits against public participation. So they contend that this music video was of public interest and that it's protected under his First Amendment rights because he was creating art, and that the furtherance of that First Amendment protection was him setting up the cameras, directing people on the set. That was him expressing his art. And therefore, technically, the whole thing that took place is protected. And therefore, you cannot take this to trial anyway. What do you think about that?

[Jesse Weinstein]

I think it's shortsighted. I disagree respectfully. And I understand that Kanye has a right to defend himself, and his lawyers are doing their jobs. And there are certain claims, creative ones. But again, I don't think that just because he's calling it art and just because it falls squarely into a public sort of atmosphere, that he's protected against allegations of sexual assault.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

What kind of a precedent would it set, in your opinion, if this doesn't get its day in court?

[Jesse Weinstein]

A very dangerous one. I think this allows creators to basically do whatever they want to whomever they want in creative spaces and get away with it as long as they call it art. And I think that that's a really, really dangerous precedent to set. We know that the entertainment world has changed in the wake of the MeToo movement, but there's still a long way to go. There are still really powerful people who are abusing that power and taking advantage of of people. And women are at the forefront of those people who are being exploited, who are being blackmailed, who are being pressured to do things that they don't want to do. And so I think if we're looking at the entertainment world, it's a really not safe space for women in a lot of ways. A lot of women would say they don't feel safe in the entertainment world. And I think that a ruling like this that throws the case away under the guise of art is going to create a lot of fear, but also a lot of confidence from the people who are in positions of power to just do whatever they want to unscathed.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

Why did you want Jen to speak publicly about this?

[Jesse Weinstein]

I think that Jen has a right to tell her story and I thought that speaking to you would give her an opportunity to speak to other people who may be in the same situation that she was or who may have experienced something similar, and at minimum show them a little bit of support, but maybe give them the push that they need to go and talk to somebody and pursue accountability.

[Anishka Matandadawati]

That was Jesse Weinstein, Jennifer Ahn's attorney. Now, we did contact Kanye west for a response and offered him an interview, but we have not received a reply. If you'd like to listen to the full interview with Jesse, it's up on our YouTube. Just search Fame Under Fire on YouTube and you can go watch it. That's it for this episode of Fame Under Fire from BBC Sounds with me, Anushka Matanda Daoud, as always, if you've got any questions for us, send them to us on social media. I'm Anoushkamd on Instagram and TikTok, or you can WhatsApp us on 03306 78114. That's 03306 78. Triple one four. Make sure you subscribe and turn on your push notifications so you never miss a thing. And if you've been affected by anything in this episode and you're in the uk, details of organisations that can provide help and support are available at BBC.co.uk actionline. I'm Gemma Gander and for BBC Radio 4 and Shadow World, this is Stolen. Years more than two decades ago, Andrew Malkinson was found guilty of a crime he didn't commit.

[Zing Singh]

There's a massive hole in your life

[Anishka Matandadawati]

and it's been filled in with suffering. Now, in 2026, another man has faced a jury of his peers on trial for the very same crime Andrew spent years of his life imprisoned for. I'm 55. I was 37 when I went in. It's damaging. Driven by Andy's passion to see the system held to account. We follow him as he tries to build back a life. And we discover how Paul Quinn came to finally be convicted. Subscribe to Shadow Stolen Years on BBC Sounds.

[Zing Singh]

Hi, I'm Zing Singh. And I'm Simon Jack. And together we host Good Bad Billionaire, the podcast exploring how some of the world's richest people made their fortunes. And we're back for a new season with a brand new lineup of billionaires. Yep. Global pop icon Beyonce, Hollywood movie director Steven Spielberg, football superstar Cristiano Ronaldo, to name just a few. And as ever, we're asking you to decide whether they're good, bad, or just another billionaire that's good. Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.