Prince Andrew and Epstein - what's the latest?

Summary

Fame Under Fire: Prince Andrew and Epstein - What's the Latest?
Release Date: August 14, 2025
Host: Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty

---

Introduction

In this episode of Fame Under Fire, BBC Sounds host Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty delves into the enduring controversy surrounding Prince Andrew and his association with the late Jeffrey Epstein. Six years after Epstein's death, the scandal continues to cast a shadow over the British Royal Family and figures like former President Donald Trump.

Prince Andrew's Background and Public Image

Anoushka begins by providing a comprehensive overview of Prince Andrew's life and career. She introduces Andrew Loney, a royal historian and author of the new book "The Rise and Fall of the House of York", who offers an in-depth look into the Prince's complex persona.

[04:20] Andrew Loney: "Well, he's the second son of the late Queen, born in 1960, very popular during the Falklands War..."

Loney paints a picture of Prince Andrew as both a dedicated royal and a flamboyant socialite, highlighting his service in the Falklands War and his subsequent role as a trade representative for Britain.

The Epstein Connection

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Prince Andrew's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. Loney challenges the public narrative that Prince Andrew had minimal contact with Epstein, presenting evidence suggesting a much closer association.

[10:41] Andrew Loney: "I met through his girlfriend back in 1999, and it would be to some extent a stretch to say that, as a were, we were close friends."

Contrary to official statements, evidence from sources like Prince Andrew's private secretary and flight logs indicate frequent interactions between the Prince and Epstein, raising questions about the nature of their relationship.

Exploring Prince Andrew's Personal Life

The conversation delves into Prince Andrew's personal history, including allegations of his first sexual experience at a young age, which Loney suggests may have been a form of sexual abuse. This revelation aims to provide context for the Prince's later behavior.

[08:25] Andrew Loney: "I thought it presented him a slightly more sympathetic light. It was a reliable source and I left it there for them to decide."

Loney emphasizes the complexity of Prince Andrew's character, portraying him as both a tragic figure and someone with troubling behavior.

Royal Family's Response and Transparency Issues

When questioned about the Palace's response to his book, Loney reveals that Buckingham Palace has chosen not to comment, stating:

[16:05] Buckingham Palace Representative: "The Duke of York is not a working member of the Royal Family. We would not speak for him, we would not comment on this matter."

Loney advocates for greater transparency within the Royal Family, suggesting that the lack of accountability undermines public trust.

[13:43] Andrew Loney: "These people are undermining the good work that's done by others, the King, the Prince, Princess Royal and others. And no one in this country should be above the law."

The Role of Legal Experts: Insights from Sean Kent

Later in the episode, criminal defense attorney Sean Kent joins the discussion to shed light on recent legal developments related to Jeffrey Epstein's case, including the decision not to release grand jury transcripts and the controversial transfer of Ghislaine Maxwell to a minimum-security facility in Texas.

[20:06] Sean Kent: "The judge said, if I do release this and the public at all sees that there's nothing in there anymore, this could just be seen as a diversion."
[23:06] Sean Kent: "The presiding authority is an appointed cabinet position, is appointed by Donald Trump..."
[30:24] Anoushka: "It is such a weird concept that if somebody's... you could pardon them."

Kent explains the complexities of the U.S. Department of Justice's actions and the implications of presidential pardons, using Ghislaine Maxwell's case as a focal point. He underscores the potential misuse of pardons for personal or political gain, highlighting the absence of a legal precedent requiring consistency in their application.

Public Reaction and Victims' Perspectives

The episode also touches on the backlash from Epstein's victims regarding Ghislaine Maxwell's transfer, with the family's representative expressing outrage over what they perceive as preferential treatment.

[25:02] Narrator: "And they further condemned the move as having been made without any notification to Maxwell's victims."

This reaction underscores the ongoing struggle for justice and the deep-seated frustrations among victims seeking accountability.

Conclusion: Calls for Further Investigation and Accountability

As the episode wraps up, both Loney and Kent emphasize the need for thorough investigations into Prince Andrew's ties with Epstein and the broader issues of accountability within powerful institutions. They advocate for transparency and suggest that without it, public trust will continue to erode.

[15:10] Andrew Loney: "I think there is a case here for them to investigate. So, yeah, I think there are some big questions that they need to answer."

Anoushka closes by encouraging listeners to engage with the ongoing discourse, emphasizing the importance of uncovering the truth behind the headlines.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Andrew Loney on Prince Andrew's Early Life:

  "he was a regular at Tramp and at China White." [06:09]

• Sean Kent on Presidential Pardons:

  "Presidents use these for personal reasons... it's just the president says, I want to pardon you because you've been convicted of a federal crime." [30:32]

• Andrew Loney on Transparency:

  "In any democracy, we should be able to criticize the rich and powerful and they shouldn't just be protected just because they're rich and powerful." [16:05]

---

This episode of Fame Under Fire meticulously dissects the multifaceted narrative surrounding Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein, offering listeners a nuanced perspective supported by expert insights and firsthand accounts. For those seeking clarity amidst the chaos of misinformation, Anoushka Mutanda-Dougherty provides a thorough and engaging exploration of one of the most enduring scandals of our time.

Transcript

[Narrator]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

[Advertisement Voice]

This is the story of the wad. As a maintenance engineer, he hears things differently. To the untrained ear, everything on his shop floor might sound fine, but he can hear gears grinding or a belt slipping. So he steps in to fix the problem at hand before it gets out of hand. And he knows Granger's got the right product he needs to get the job done which which is music to his ears. Call clickgrainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. If you work as a manufacturing facilities engineer, installing a new piece of equipment can be as complex as the machinery itself. From prep work to alignment and testing, it's your team's job to put it all together. That's why it's good to have Grainger on your side. With industrial grade products and next day delivery, Grainger helps ensure you have everything you need close at hand through every step of the installation. Call 1-800-granger clickgranger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts hello and welcome back to Fame Under Fire from BBC Sounds with me, Anushka Matanr Doughty. When celebrities, sports stars, politicians, influencers and royalty find themselves in the firing line, whether it's a lawsuit or a scandal, we are here to pre buff, debunk, fact check, myth bust, interrogate and of course answer your questions. You can send them to me on social media or WhatsApp at 03306-78114. That's 03306-78114 and don't forget to subscribe and turn on your push notifications so you never miss a thing. Six years after his death, pedophile and sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein is still posing a massive problem for the British Royal family and President Donald Trump.

[Narrator]

The people that I met and the opportunities that I was given to learn either by him or because of him, were actually very useful. He himself not as it were, as close as you might think. We weren't that close.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

I sit down with a royal historian whose new book claims to uncover just how close the Duke of York, that's Prince Andrew, really was with the disgraced financier. And Sean is back telling us how he thinks Ghislaine Maxwell is after a big decision from President Trump. Essentially. Pardon me please.

[Sean Kent]

It's to be assumed one of the things she requested is get me out of this awful facility that I am, take me to this low risk facility in Texas So I can have a better time. It is my belief the reason that they are doing this so publicly, so loud, making statements on why she's doing this, is she's trying to angle for a presidential pardon.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

But first, this brand new book, it's called entitled the Rise and Fall of the House of York. It took four years to write, and the author, Andrew Loney, said he conducted hundreds of interviews while researching it. But if you don't really remember who Prince Andrew is, it's hardly like he's turning up at every social function. Here's a quick refresher.

[Narrator]

News has just come from Buckingham Palace. The Queen has had her baby. It's a boy.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

The Prince was just 19 when he signed up for a 12 year commission and trained at Dartmouth Naval College, a day when Andrew and Sarah became the Duke and Duchess of York and people came in their thousands to see them.

[Narrator]

It is said, of course, that Prince Andrew is the Queen's favorite son.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

Your Royal Highness, we've come to Buckingham palace in highly unusual circumstances. Normally we'd be discussing your work, but today you've chosen to speak out for the first time. We're getting reports that a woman has filed a lawsuit against Prince Andrew in the United States, accusing him of sexually abusing her. Prince Andrew has emphatically denied all of the allegations against him. Buckingham palace has announced that Prince Andrew is returning his royal and military titles to the Queen and will no longer be referred to as His Royal Highness in any official capacity. The Prince is liked by just 6% of the British public, according to a.

[Narrator]

Recent poll, earning the nicknames Air Miles, Andy and Randy.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

Andy, Andrew Loney is with me now. Hi, Andrew. Hi. Now, it might feel a little bit weird for you to do a recap of who Prince Andrew is, but considering my best friend's little brother thought that he was married to Fergie from the Black Eyed Peas, I think it's fair to say that for younger people, they perhaps only know him through his association with Epstein. So who was Prince Andrew before what you term in the book the Downfall?

[Narrator]

Well, he's the second son of the late Queen, born in 1960, very popular during the Falklands War, in which he served and was conducting really royal duties in the way that his siblings were. So he served in the Falklands in 1982. His career in the Navy went on till 2000, and then he became basically a trade representative for Britain to promote British trade.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

As we can hear, the book focuses heavily on Prince Andrew. We asked the palace and his team for a response to the book in general, Buckingham palace said, as the Duke of York is not a working member of the Royal family, we would not speak for him, we would not comment on this matter. The prince's team has not responded yet. You spend some time putting forward the idea that he was an abusive boss who shattered shouts at his staff for things like cutting up his meat. Wrong. An easily led individual who you quote one diplomat referring to as a bit thick and boring and someone devoid of purpose. You reference a friend of his ex wife, Sarah Ferguson, calling him a poor judge of character, easily impressed, and characterized him as going from a couch potato to a man about town with nothing better than to go on one holiday to the next. But you also spend a fair amount of time fleshing out this image of him as the playboy prince. Now, if you said to me, I'm 24, I was born in 2000, if you said to me, playboy prince, I think Prince Harry. Talk to me about the playboy prince as Prince Andrew. What do you mean by that?

[Narrator]

Well, there are a lot of parallels with Harry and, you know, the service career, but the playboy prince, he was called his royal heartthrob. He was very good looking.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

He.

[Narrator]

Someone said he looked like Redford. He was very charming and charismatic. He was a sort of poster boy of the royal family. Charles was seen as someone with big ears who was a little bit sort of gauche. Andrew was very flamboyant, confident, a sportsman, a real macho man. And I think he himself thought that he would make a better king than Charles. So that was the image.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

But the perception of him as a playboy prince, it wasn't PR created. He really was out there shaking a leg in the clubs. I mean, the reference to him in China White dancing with Paris Hilton is just. I mean, he was putting some time behind cultivating this image as well.

[Narrator]

Yeah, this was very much his midlife crisis. I mean, it said that he slept with over a thousand women, but. Exactly. He was a regular at Tramp and at China White. And, you know, people kind of felt this is a bit weird for a man with teenage age 40 to be doing this. But, you know, lots of men have.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

Midlife crises and photos of him sunbathing on yachts with topless models and things like that. I mean, this might be quite shocking to people who, 16, 17 years old, you know, the scandals with the royals, they might think of Megxit. They wouldn't necessarily imagine that this is what had taken place beforehand.

[Narrator]

Exactly. I mean, it shows you that in some ways there are always scandals in the Royal family and they weather them. So there was clearly a lot of publicity about this, about the sort of people he was mixing with. Some of them were into drugs, certainly a lot of them were very promiscuous. Some of them have been to prison. But I think the concern also was that he was mixing with a lot of very dodgy businessmen and despots, people who were putting political prisoners into prison, who didn't have free elections. Not the sort of people that really sent out the right image for a member of the royal family.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

But as part of your interrogation of this image of him as a playboy prince, and like you said there, Randy, Andy, and these kind of versions of him that they saw in the press, you also look at his sex life, including great detail. But you look at the prince's first sexual experience, which one of your sources told you was at age 11 when he lost his virginity after a father of one of his friends arranged for an escort to come and meet the two boys in a West End hotel. Your source likens this to a form of sexual abuse. Now that is extremely serious. Did you consider whether Andrew was entitled to anonymity about this allegation? And did you approach him to get a waiver for this anonymity?

[Narrator]

Well, I took the view of putting everything I found in and then I thought I would leave it to the editors or the lawyers at my publisher to cut. I didn't really want to self censor. And for me it seemed quite an important thing in terms of explaining his later behavior. I think it presented him a slightly more sympathetic light. It was a reliable source and I left it there for them to decide. And if they wanted to take it out, of course I would have agreed. But you're right, I mean, he is entitled to a private life. And there were a lot of things that we took out connected with his private life that are not in.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

And were people very forthcoming about some of the more intimate details about his life?

[Narrator]

Yes, I mean, this is where I got the material, talking to people. I mean, there aren't documents about it. It's people talking. And these are her friends, girlfriends, people like that.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

And we're going to get into the relationship with Epstein. But when we look at this alleged experience of losing his virginity, it paints him as sort of a tragic figure as well.

[Narrator]

Yeah, it is. And I begin the book by saying it is a tragic comedy, really. There is some sympathy there. And I mean, some of his behavior is so bizarre that it's not normal behavior.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

And the relationship between Prince Andrew Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell weaves in and out of this book. You get sort of a through line of their friendship. It comes in, it comes out, and you focus on it in great detail in some parts of the book. Jeffrey Epstein died in prison in 2019 as he awaited his trial on sex trafficking charges. It came more than a decade after his conviction for soliciting prostitution from a minor, for which he was a registered sex offender. This time, the former financier was accused of running a vast network of underage girls for sex, and he pled not guilty. In 2022, his former partner, Ghislaine Maxwell, was sentenced to for helping Epstein abuse young girls. Here's Prince Andrew speaking to the BBC's Newsnight program in 2019 about his relationship with Epstein.

[Narrator]

Well, I met through his girlfriend back in 1999, and it would be to some extent a stretch to say that, as it were, we were close friends. We were friends because of other people, and I had a lot of opportunity to go to the United States, but I didn't have much time with him. I suppose I saw him once or twice a year, perhaps maybe maximum of three times a year.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

In your book, you tell a different story about when the pair first met. Now, you say that they met in the early 90s. What is your evidence for saying that?

[Narrator]

Well, two things. One is his own private secretary, Alastair Watson, writing to the Times saying that they, in fact, he met in the early 1990s, and a man called Steve Hoffenberg, who was a great associate of Epstein. In fact, he did a Ponzi scheme with him and went to prison for 18 years. And he actually, actually put it down to the date of 1991. I think the other thing that's shocking is that they claim to have both of them to have cut off contact with Epstein after 2010, and yet we have legal depositions in court cases where they're in contact and meeting in 2011.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

So I've seen that letter from Alistair Watson and I've seen the flight logs, and it does reflect a longer relationship between the two. But you also go some way in fleshing out, you know, picking apart that idea that they didn't see each other much because you talk about them waiting to aboard a jet in 1999 with Epstein, you say there was a dinner party in April held in Manhattan in Jeffrey Epstein's home. In the same year, in May, you say Prince Andrew went to his Caribbean residence.

[Narrator]

Yes. I mean, he had his own protection officer said that he stayed so often with Epstein in New York, that his bedroom was called the Britannia Suite. There's a one called Deborah Gale, who was the housekeeper in Palm beach, which is one of Epstein's houses, who said that Andrew was a regular visitor. So I don't think there's any doubt that Andrew saw him a lot. And as some of these legal depositions have come out, we've been more aware of just how close he was to Depstein in terms of their business arrangements.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

So he's seeing him a lot. Do you think Prince Andrew was in denial about Epstein?

[Narrator]

Well, I mean, they're all trying to distance themselves from Epstein. So Trump, as we all know, is saying that he hardly knew Epstein when they were best buddies for 10 years. Trump says that he had never met Andrew when there are countless photographs, the two of them together. And I've got accounts in the book of them talking about money and golf and women. So I'm afraid all these powerful men, when they sort of realize that, you know, they may be in trouble, they just begin to tell porcupines.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

Some people might say Epstein is dead. Ghislaine Maxwell is in jail. Prince Andrew's reputation is cemented, particularly after the BBC Newsnight interview he did, which lots of people said was absolutely disastrous and pointed to him being guilty, actually was worse for his public relations. Why write this book? Cause you're not coming with. I've found something that can lead to a criminal investigation or write, change our perception of Prince Andrew. So why do this?

[Narrator]

Well, I'm a biographer. He's an interesting subject to write about. I mean, I would disagree with you. We now have the palace beginning to address questions like whether he should lose his title. So I think. I do think I've moved the dial just in terms of book, which is rare for a biography. But, you know, you don't write biographies just to do a hatchet job. I wrote it because I was interested in a whole series of questions. But 300 people, that's new material.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

And you speak about in the book about perhaps more transparency being needed on the part of the royals. Is that something you're calling for with this as well? Declaring their business interests and releasing information about where Andrew was at specific times?

[Narrator]

Well, I've been calling for more transparency about royal matters for a long time, particularly with archives, which they are all closed with, the fact that they're exempt from the Freedom of Information act, that there's no parliamentary scrutiny of them. MPs 20 years ago were calling for a Royal Register, like a Parliamentary Register, to show what business activities they Held were had going, not so much for the principal players, but for the sort of more minor players like Andrew and Fergie. But also they were calling MPs 20 years ago for the National Crime Agency to investigate. Andrew and I have suggested that that might be something they should look at again. And I've certainly got information which I wasn't able to put in the book for legal reasons, which I would be happy to pass to the nsca. And also we've had met claiming that they've looked at the case with Virginia Giffre and sex trafficking three times and there nothing to see there. Well, people including the former head of Royal Security, DI Davis, have been pushing to say, I think there is a case here for them to investigate. He may be completely innocent, as he says, but I think there should be an investigation. So, yeah, I think there are some big questions that they need to answer.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

Are you a royalist?

[Narrator]

Yes, I am.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

You believe in the Royal Family? You like what they stand for?

[Narrator]

Absolutely. And it's because I'm a monarchist that I feel they should hold themselves to higher standards. These people are undermining the good work that's done by others, the King, the Prince, Princess Royal and others. And no one in this country should be above the law.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

He hasn't had criminal charges brought against him. In many ways, he has been pushed out of the public eye and his reputation is not very good. So what more are you calling for? You want him to be detitled?

[Narrator]

I'm not calling for him to be detitled. I think there's a feeling that something needs to be done. The public anger, if you look at the comments at the moment, suggests that they feel that he's got away with a lot. I mean, there's no hatchet job here. I started off wanting to cooperate with him, wanting to write a biography which could be as fair and balanced as possible, but it's difficult if they say to all their friends not to talk to me. Clearly the material I'm gathering will not necessarily be from people who are positive. There is some positive stuff in here. I think I'm pretty fair to him over his time in the Falklands. I concede that he did some good work. So I think in any democracy, we should be able to criticize the rich and powerful and they shouldn't just be protected just because they're rich and powerful.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

And like I said earlier, we asked the palace and Andrew's team about the book. Buckingham palace sent us this response. The Duke of York is not a working member of the Royal Family. We would not speak for him and we would not comment on this matter. You went to him originally. What was the response that you got from him?

[Narrator]

Well, I had a meeting with Sarah Ferguson, who was sort of representing the two of them, saying, I would like to work with them. My initial impression after the end of the meeting, and we had another meeting with her PR people who I think also acted for Andrew, was that they were prepared to discuss this and then they decided at that point they didn't want to do it. So I tried as hard as I could to give them an opportunity to put their perspective.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

Throughout this book, there is a repeated idea from some of your sources that Prince Andrew was manipulated by Jeffrey Epstein and Glenn Maxwell used for his access to high society. One person saying, you know, he's so innocent and naive that he doesn't realise that they have ulterior motives. But you have Epstein's housekeeper, who you've spoken about, Deborah Gale, describing paying girls that left the Prince's bedroom with wads of cash left by Jeffrey Epstein. One perception, he's an easily left. Others, he's actively engaged in a seedy lifestyle where his sexual appetite is being served by Jeffrey Epstein. That's two very different views of him. You spent four years writing this and researching this. What perception do you have of him?

[Narrator]

Well, people are very complex and they present themselves in different ways to different people. People talk about Andrew being incredibly well mannered and yet the book has lots and lots of stories of him being rude and abusive to staff and to all sorts of people he comes into contact with. So what I try to do is present a mosaic of impressions to leave to make up their own mind.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

And another person you speak about, who you've touched on is President Donald Trump. First of all, the book is called entitled the Rise and Fall of the House of York, not the House of York and Trump. So why focus on him?

[Narrator]

Well, people are interested in the relationship with Trump. It is part of the story in some ways. I'm not writing in a vacuum, I'm writing for a market. And if people want to know more about the relationship with Trump, then I.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

Should provide that and his relationship with Epstein as well. You touch on that. Trump and Epstein.

[Narrator]

Trump and Epstein is very well documented, not just in my book, but in lots of books. And people like Michael Wolff have written extensively about it and talked about it, so I'm not saying anything new, but clearly I had. There were slightly different perspectives I got through my sources. Yes.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

Andrew, thank you so much for talking to me today.

[Narrator]

It's been a pleasure.

[Advertisement Voice]

This is the story of the One As a maintenance engineer, he hears things differently. To the untrained ear, everything on his shop floor might sound fine, but he can hear gears grinding or a belt slipping. So he steps in to fix the problem at hand before it gets out of hand. And he knows Granger's got the right product. He needs to get the job done, which is music to his ears. Call clickgranger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.

[Sean Kent]

Life is a workout and Smoothie King is here to help you power through. Whether you're grinding out bicep curls or muscling the couch across the living room, crushing morning miles, or sprinting through back to back meetings, Smoothie King has fuel to help you maximize your workouts, own your recovery and elevate your game. Give your body the energy, protein and power it needs with a lineup of delicious smoothies made to help you conquer your goals.

[Narrator]

Only at Smoothie King.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

Well, this Jeffrey Epstein story isn't going anywhere for Trump. It just seems to be building and getting bigger and bigger. On Tuesday, it was announced that a judge has ruled that the grand jury transcripts relating to Ghislaine Maxwell won't be released after the Department of Justice asked for them to be made public. Hearing that, I have a lot of questions. Joining me now with the answers is our resident criminal defense attorney Sean Kent, joining from South Carolina. Hi, Sean.

[Sean Kent]

Hey, Nushka, how are you?

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

I'm good, thank you. I've got questions about this. First of all, what exactly would the grand jury transcripts be?

[Sean Kent]

If you remember back with the Diddy case, our grand jury is basically like an investigative body. So what ended up happening are prosecutors go in front of this grand jury, these group of individuals just from the community and they bring facts to them. They help them make a decision whether or not a case should be indicted or if a case should be brought, brought forth or should somebody have to stand trial. Grand jury information is notoriously private. The Department of Justice went to a judge and they said, we want this grand jury information released. And their logic was they said, this is an exceptional circumstance that we want this information released that could also help us lead to more crimes or things of that nature that help us further go with the case case. The judge then went and re listened to the grand jury testimony. He said, nah, y' all are full of it. What was actually very wild is he said, I've looked at all of this stuff. There's nothing in Here there weren't really any witnesses, no really eyewitnesses, nothing that's going to trigger some new crimes. And he says something very interesting. He said, if I do release this and the public at all sees that there's nothing in there anymore, this could just be seen as a diversion. He didn't say a diversion of what, but he said, if I'm just releasing information, the public reads this grand jury testimony that's supposed to be private, and there's nothing there. This is a diversion. So I thought that was a really interesting word because he didn't say diversion from somebody. But this could just be all trying to create some type of diversion.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

The thing that confuses me is the Department of Justice came to the judge and asked for the transcripts to be released. Well, aren't the Department of Justice technically in charge?

[Sean Kent]

And that's what's crazy. So people get confused on who and what the Department of Justice is. The Department of Justice actually just used to be called the Office of the Attorney General. So who is the Attorney General? The Attorney General is the attorney for the United States of America for the federal body. And. But what's really interesting is the Attorney General is an appointed cabinet position, is appointed by Donald Trump. So not to do a government class, but we have three bodies of government in the United States. We have the executive, we have the judicial, and we have the legislative. Those are three separate bodies that are supposed to be distinct and separate to create a checks and balances, if you will. So we have the judicial branch, and the job of the judicial branch is to make sure that we're doing laws the correct way. The executive branch is to enforce the law. So the Department of Justice, this is just an arm of individuals, just an arm of people who are basically prosecutors. The thing that's weird is they. I don't want to say they work for the president because they're supposed to be an independent arm, but they're basically under the guise of the President because he's their boss. He's the one who appoints them. So even though they're supposed to be neutral and detached, there's a real argument to be made that they are just carrying out the whims and the controls of our president, since he's their boss. Did that answer your question?

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

It answers it, but it's. It's confusing. Why did they want these transcripts released?

[Sean Kent]

And that's one of the things, that's why we brought that up, is they're answering the whims of their boss. And so you have a president who's just like the public at whole is same and these are assumptions, but that you have a president out there saying people are asking about this Maxwell interview, these Epstein's interview, so you guys release them because they're going to help my political agenda. And that's where people are having a problem, is like, what's the point of releasing this stuff if it does not promote or show justice? And the judge said, no, I'm not releasing this just because Department of Justice, your boss wants this stuff released because this could just be you guys trying to create a diversion so people aren't looking at something else. There's nothing through the ends of justice, nothing that'll promote justice, which will justify me releasing this private grand jury information. Because he even said the following. Don't forget Ghislaine Maxwell went on trial. So anything that was important about her case that the grand jury had was public and was made at the trial. So everybody already knows about that. So that's like the judge is saying, what else do you need this information for? We simply don't release grand jury information just because a sitting president or the Department of Justice wants it.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

So releasing those transcripts would speak to the idea of transparency that Trump is trying to further. In the backlash of saying, I'm not releasing the Epstein files. Another thing that's caused massive problems for him is this move of Ghislaine Maxwell, who's a co conspirator of Jeffrey Epstein, who's a pedophile and sex trafficker and disgraced financier. He's moved her from one jail in Florida to a minimal security jail in Texas. Now, my understanding of these jails comes from films where they're often shown as like, drinking cocktails at lunchtime and playing tennis on the lawn. How far far from the truth is that? Is the quality of life much improved at these jails?

[Sean Kent]

Yes and no. It really does depend on the facility. And first, I want to make this clear. Technically, it's not Donald Trump moving this inmate, it's the Department of Justice. Even though I know exactly what I said and who's the policy of the Department of Justice, Technically, it's the Department of Justice moving somebody. Now, given the fact that she is convicted of sex trafficking, which is a crime of violence, violence, usually she should be in a high risk, violent facility. The higher secure the facility, the worse the facility, the worse the conditions is usually the rule of thumbs. She's been transferred to a minimum secure facility. And in those facilities, you are right, they're allowed to engage in sports activities, they're allowed to get jobs, they have better opportunities. Because the reason we have these people in these minimum secure facilities is what we're saying is we are transitioning you to the point that you can go back into the public at all. What's wild about this Anushka is I've had a lot of people who have cooperated with the government. It's called a Rule 35. After you have been convicted, you sit down with the government, you try to give information because you want your time cut. Usually you don't publicize this, you don't let the world know. You don't want anyone to know. No, it has been so public that she has cooperated. It is so public. And when you get cooperate, you get things. And it, it's to be assumed one of the things she requested is get me out of this awful facility that I am. Take me to this low risk facility in Texas so I can have a better time. It is my belief the reason that they are doing this so publicly, so loud, making statements on why she's doing this is she's trying to angle for a presidential pardon. Because normally when we have people who are cooperating, which we do, we've represented a lot of people who have cooperated against other individuals. You don't want the world to know. Why don't you want the world to know? Because they're going to be in a facility with a lot of inmates who now know you are a snitch. And when they know that you are a snitch, you could be at harm's way. So it is wild. This does not happen that she is so publicly and her lawyers are so publicly telling the world, told I'm a snitch, guys, I'll tell on anybody to the point that I clearly have told on people because I used to be in a high risk facility and now I'm in a low risk facility.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

The BBC contacted the White House for a comment on Maxwell's move to Texas. They confirmed that she's been moved to the federal prison camp in Bryan. Maxwell's attorney, David Oscar Marcus, confirmed the transfer but declined further comment. Now, in a statement from the family of the late Virginia Jaffrey, one of Jeffrey Epstein's victims, they expressed their horror and, and disgust at what they described as the preferential treatment given to Ghislaine Maxwell. And they further condemned the move as having been made without any notification to Maxwell's victims. Now you spoke about there is this kind of being a gateway to A presidential pardon. We know if you listen to Diddy on trial, you will know very well. We went over this multiple times. Presidents can hand out pardons to whoever they want and they often do. Every president's done it. It's not something that would be unique, unique to Donald Trump. My question to you is, if he does hand out a pardon to Ghislaine Maxwell, which he hasn't said he's going to do, but if he did, does that, can that be used as sort of setting some sort of precedent for another person who's been accused of a co conspirator of sex trafficking to go, well, Donald Trump pardoned Ghislaine Maxwell. Why shouldn't I be acquitted as well?

[Sean Kent]

The long answer is no, and here's why. Presidents have used the pardon power at their will for generations. It's just what a president can do. There is no rhyme or reason. He does not have to ask permission. If it is a federal crime that you have been convicted of and the president wants to give you a pardon, he can. The president usually pardons people who have looked out for him. So if you look at the two, actually, we can go with three separate examples. First, you start with a former president, Joe Biden. He pardoned his son. Now, now, other individuals could say, why don't you pardon me? I have tax issues, I have gun issues. Joe Biden's like, I don't have to. That's my son, I'm going to pardon him. You go to next step forward and then you go with the Chrisley's. Todd Chrisley and his wife were convicted of basically bilking banks and scams of this nature. But their daughter, because of her social media presence and her prowess, was a big Trump supporter during the election. And then afterwards she went to him and said, said, pardon my parents. And guess what? Donald Trump said, you helped me. So then they got the pardon. And then you go to the most high profile one that we're hearing about all the time, Sean Puff Daddy Combs. Sean Combs's lawyers have flat out said, we have reached out to President Trump because we want a pardon. And if you notice, Donald Trump's response back was, hey, we used to be friends. We're not friends anymore. He doesn't like me very much. I have a problem with this. And he is talking about the fact that literally Sean Combs said nasty stuff about him during the election. And for this reason, he's probably not considering a pardon. So if you see these, presidents use these for personal reasons. And so just because somebody else has used it. That doesn't work. There's not a legal basis. There's not a logical basis. There's not case law determines it. It's just the president says, I want to pardon you because you've been convicted of a federal crime. And all presidents do it. It, whether it's Obama, whether it's Biden, whether it's Trump, whether it's Jimmy Carter, all presidents do it.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

It is such a weird concept that if somebody's. You like somebody, you could pardon them.

[Sean Kent]

All the legal analysis, all the Constitution, it had nothing to do but friendships.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

Yeah, but she's the only survivor in terms of that. Jeffrey Epstein is dead. She bears the brunt of carrying out the punishment. You know, for so many of those victims. That's justice. Seeing her behind bars and seeing her in a jail, that matches, matches the level of criminality. It's just a wild concept that a president could then pardon a her because she might have been nice to him. Sean, thank you so much for breaking that down for us.

[Sean Kent]

Thank you so much for having me. Anushka, you're appreciated. Thank you.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

That was criminal defense attorney Sean Kent joining us from South Carolina. And that's it for Fame Under Fire from BBC Sounds. With me, Anushka Matam Doughty. Keep sending in your questions or ideas for stories. You can send them to me on social media or you can WhatsApp us at 03306-78114. That's 03306-7814 for I'm Shari Vile. I've been investigating fraud for more than 20 years. It is not them being gullible or stupid. These are criminals and it's often very organized. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Carter. I'm a criminologist and a forensic linguist. Liv's your red flag's gone up. This is this gap in contact. It's an incredibly powerful mechanism.

[Narrator]

I'm Alex Wood. I used to be a prolific fraudster, but now I help the police to.

[Sean Kent]

Catch people like me.

[Narrator]

And that's very clever because he's mirroring the bank and the police's own security messaging.

[Anushka Matanr Doughty]

Listen now to Scam Secrets on BBC Sounds.