← Fame Under Fire
Fame Under Fire
The Epstein Files: Fact or Fiction?
00:21:04
The Epstein Files: Fact or Fiction? Your questions answered.
Loading summary
Transcript30 lines
- [00:00]
Solitaire Clash Advertiser
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.
- [00:06]
Anoushka Mitanda Doughty
If there was a big red button that would just demolish the Internet, I.
- [00:11]
Interface Podcast Host
Would smash that button with my forehead. From the BBC, this is the Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world.
- [00:20]
Anoushka Mitanda Doughty
This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews.
- [00:23]
Interface Podcast Host
It's about what technology is actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday.
- [00:29]
Anoushka Mitanda Doughty
Life, and all the bizarre ways people.
- [00:32]
Interface Podcast Host
Are using the Internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Looking for a fun way to take a break during your day? Solitaire Clash that's C L A S H takes classic solitaire and gives it a whole new twist. It's fast, skill based and packed with exciting features that keep every round feeling fresh. In those in between moments, waiting for a ride between tasks or just needing a breather, Solitaire Clash makes it easy to relax, refocus, and have a little fun. It's simple to jump into, satisfying to play, and always ready when you are. So take a moment for yourself. Play Solitaire Clash. That's C L A S H.
- [01:16]
Anoushka Mitanda Doughty
Hello and welcome back to Fame Under Fire from BBC Sounds with me, Anoushka Mitanda Doughty. As it's one of the biggest stories of our time, it's no surprise that we are picking up where we left off last week with the Epstein files. To those of you who have texted in, who have said on social media questions about the Macron case, Blake Lively, we haven't forgotten, but the sheer amount of questions about Epstein means we're going to dedicate a whole episode to it. Now. Reminder, those files detail a huge investigation into the late Jeffrey Epstein, who sexually abused dozens of young women and girls. And of course, the victims and survivors must remain at the center of all of this. Now, we asked you, what questions do you have about the files that you're not seeing covered in the headlines you sent them in today? I'm going to answer them. It's just me and you. There's no Sean. He's doing that lawyer thing that he does in court. But later, I am catching up with Eric Fadali from the Bloom law firm and he's going to fill me in on some updates about the survivors. But first, we're covering everything from cannibalism to torture references and conversations around babies. Is this all actually in there? And what more do we know? This is a Jeffrey Epstein fact or fiction from Fame Under Fire. But three things before we start. First, a warning. Some listeners or viewers, if you're with us on YouTube might find some of this content distressing. Second, as we heard last week, we have to remember that just because somebody's name is in the files, it's not an indication of any wrongdoing. And lastly, you might hear me say this email appears to be from so and so, even though their name is actually in there. That's because they could come out and say, well, yeah, it's sent from my account, but I didn't actually write it. And sometimes we just don't know who it's from because it's redacted and sometimes it's just not clear who sent it. But I'm going to jump straight in. I've got senior producer Jim in the gallery. Jim, what's the first question? Are the emails about torture true? Yeah, and I know what emails that is referring to. I've seen them all over TikTok.
- [03:05]
Eric Fadali
Where are you? Are you okay? I loved the torture video. That is an email sent to somebody that has been redacted from Jeffrey Epstein.
- [03:14]
Anoushka Mitanda Doughty
Yes, they, they are in the files. This is a direct quote from one. This is an email from Epstein which is redacted. So we don't know who it was sent to. It was sent on the 24th of April 2009. It says, quote, where are you? Are you okay? I loved the torture video. That's EFTA 00663685. If anybody wants to look on the DOJ website for themselves. Another one written by Epstein. We're not sure who to again says, do you want me to try to do her or just torture her? Now those emails are in there. The screenshots you've seen on social media are real. But what do we actually know outside of this we can't see in the files if the FBI have actually investigated him for torture, if they followed these emails up and found it was something benign or if something criminal was going on. Can we glean anything from the federal indictment now? Reminder, a federal indictment is a lawsuit that lists charges made by the federal government. Now, the actual crime of torture doesn't exist as a statute in US law, so it can't be prosecuted under the banner of torture. But what we might think of as torture is prosecuted as other crimes. Think assault, battery, locking someone in a room. So false imprisonment, those all can come under the headline of torture that a prosecutor might say happened in court, but they'll actually exist in the indictment as other crimes. When you get to sentencing, there's something else that can happen. The prosecutor can include torture as an Enhancement. We've spoken about that before on this podcast. It's basically where they say judge Mr. So and so is a sex trafficker, but the method through which he coerced his victims was torture. So therefore he should get even more time on added at sentencing. However, none of this is alleged in Epstein's indictment. But I want to make a really clear distinction here because I've seen some of this stuff on social media. If you keyword search torture in the Epstein files, it's going to come up a lot of times. It comes up 518 times. By no means are all these references similar to the ones I just read out from the emails that are in there. It says things like, quote, I don't mean to torture you, but can you please sign this contract? So if Everybody's saying all 518 mentions are about him saying things similar to what we just said, that's not true. There are other mess where references to torture imagery appear to be dropped into what seems like casual conversation. For instance, in this one reference EFT A02640135 it says, this is a direct quote from the email. Number one, Madonna on the way. Number two, instead of torture photo, maybe portrait of me instead. Number three, presentation of Trumpville. Those messages are sent to the artist Andres Serrano who produced a series called Torture now you can google that online and see what it looks like. He's known for creat some provocative works. Epstein was also going to him to get his portrait done by him. And so we can see. This email seems to be organizing what are Epstein would be buying from Serrano and the reference to a torture photo could be about Serrano's work. Once again, there is no other information provided on this email chain, but it must be noted those are not the only mentions of the artist Andres Serrano in the files. He's in the files multiple times and at one point Epstein says to him, quote, I hope you are enjoying our girl. That's e f t a 01005609 if you want to go and look at that. Of course, as we always do, we asked Andres Serrano about his relationship with Epstein and what these messages mean. And we got a response from his wife whose words are spoken by one of our colleagues. She said this Andre's relationship with Epstein was mostly based on Andre's desire over years to acquire an antique statue. Epstein had Andre's told this story in press a few times. Now she's included in the email a link to a Vanity Fair article where he does talk about this. She said the reference to the torture picture is a reference to Serrano's series titled torture in all caps 2015. On the message about enjoying quote our girl, she said this Andres doesn't remember at all. Most of the emails are lost on our side due to several computer crashes and updates. So I sent her a screenshot of the email that the quote our girl reference was from and she responded with this. Epstein's perverted sense of humour refers to a Madonna statue that Andres got from Epstein. Again, let's be absolutely clear, an inclusion of somebody's names in the Epstein files is not an indication of any wrongdoing. But yes, there are references to torture in the Epstein files. And those screenshots you've seen flying around, well, they are, they are real. But like I said before, we have no extra information from the FBI as to if they looked into this, if they investigated this. That's not in there at all. But that is the answer to that question. So the next question we got sent in a lot was this one. Is there a photo of Jeffrey Epstein with Kuru disease? Now, if you don't know what Kuru disease is, I don't blame you. It's a rare neurodegenerative disease that occurred primarily in the Papua New guinea highlands due to ritualistic cannibalism that was part of a burial rite. This claim. Oh, my gosh. Gosh. I've seen this everywhere. Absolutely. Taken off on social media, particularly on TikTok videos viewed millions and millions of times. And it's. It's a falsity wrapped in a real exhibit from the Epstein files. Let me play you one of those videos. I've had the displeasure of coming across this picture and video in the files and it has brought to the forefront of my brain a story that my dad used to tell me all the time when I was a kid and I. So the photo that they're talking about, that is real. If you're with us on YouTube, this is what it looks like. I'll describe it. It's Jeffrey Epstein with a swollen sock, side of his face down to his lip, that's actually in the exhibits. But he does not, and let me categorically say he does not, have Kuru disease. That disease is fatal, no cure, you can't survive it. You lose your ability to walk, to sit up unassisted, to be able to eat. You have slurred speech and you are dead. Within 12 months, Jeffrey Epstein was giving interviews and writing letters in jail. His death was not caused by Kuru disease. The official cause of his death remains a, quote, suicide by hanging, according to the New York medical examiner. And in August 2019. Now, I just played you that clip about crude disease. Let me play you another one. I've had the displeasure of coming across this picture and video in the files, and it has brought to the forefront of my brain a story that my dad used to tell me all the time when I was a kid and I didn't notice. They're saying exactly the same thing in the video, word for word, but when you look at it, it looks like two separate people. One is an African American girl, one's a Caucasian girl. But if you look in the corner of the video, it says AI Generated media. So not only has this false claim taken off on TikTok, it's actually being pushed out by AI gener content creators. Now, I will say another email that is doing the rounds is where somebody asks Epstein if he isn't feeling very well. It says, quote, did you eat something bad? Now I'm quoting this directly. What is that? What it. And when we think she means, is that what it is? And he responds saying, quote, thank you for your concern, comma, not food, people. Now, that is the screenshot that's going around social media. And it's. It's real. It is, but that's not the entirety of the email chain. The person responds to Jeffrey Epstein by sending a picture of a sleeping tiger, the tiger surrounded by sleeping pigs that are dressed as tigers. And Epstein responds to that image saying, quote, predator on the outside, gentle on the inside. The opposite of what I have to deal with. Once again, I'm just giving you a fuller picture of what's in the email chain. You can make of that what you will. What's our next question? Is there a reference to killing babies and murdering innocent children in the files? Yeah, I've seen this question a lot. This conversation online appears to have come from this email exchange. It's an email which appears to be from Sarah K. It's FTA 00563164, if anybody wants to look. Sarah Kay was one of Jeffrey Epstein's assistants. Here's what it says. Hi, Rich, Jeffrey is asking if you can FedEx the painting he had made of the massacre of the innocents to the ranch. It's the large 9x9 canvas that we had rolled out for him to see in the entryway where they are killing babies. He wants to use it on the ranch and hoping you could FedEx it to arrive by Wednesday. Thanks, Sarah. Close quote. So we're not quite sure who Rich is, but we do know about the reference to the massacre of the Innocents. It's a reference to a painting. Now, there are several under the same name. One by Bruegel, for instance. Now, it depicts the scene in the Bible where after hearing from the wise men of the birth of Jesus, King Herod ordered that all children in Bethlehem under the age of two be murdered. That's a real email, but they're talking about a painting. Let's move on to the next question. People are saying he was trying to start a baby farm where he would impregnate women with genetically modified babies. Is that true? Okay, so there are a series of emails with Brian Bishops. He's best known for his work in Crypto, who, according to an article in the MIT Technology Review, was in 2019, working on a designer baby startup. The term designer baby's been around for a while. He didn't invent it. It means an infant whose genetic makeup has been altered or selected. So removing certain disease causing genes or picking the eye color of the. The emails from 2018 that appear to be between him and Epstein show Epstein agreeing to fund Bishop's designer baby startup. Reminder. This is after Epstein's conviction for child sex offenses. It's EFTA 01004801 if you want to take a look yourself. The quote is from Jeffrey Epstein, I have no problem with investing. The issue is if I'm seen to lead. Now Bishop responds, assuring Epstein that he had always assumed there would be, quote, anonymity requirements about Bab. He goes on saying, we can't publicly identify who these are or their parents or benefactors. It would brand the child as essentially and sadly a freak for life in the media. Now, we contacted Brian Bishop for a comment and he said this.
- [13:11]
Eric Fadali
He didn't get involved and I never received money from him.
- [13:14]
Anoushka Mitanda Doughty
So that's what's in there about designer babies. Now, the claim that Epstein wanted to impregnate women himself actually comes from a 2019 report by the New York Times. They reported that during the early 2000s, Epstein had confided a number of scientists and others about his plan to use his Zorro ranch as a base in which women would be impregnated with his sperm and give birth to his babies. Now, according to an article in the Guardian this week, several women say they were abused by Epstein on the ranch. The article says that the Attorney General of New Mexico said that his office had investigated Epstein's Activity in New Mexico in 2019. We don't know to what extent. The FBI also investigated the guardian report says that the emails released last week suggest there wasn't a search at the time of his arrest. So that's what we have on that. I think we've got time for one more question. Hey, fame under fire pod. I can't tell what's real and what isn't. TikTok says there are emails in there about getting infants to suckle on pacifiers harder. Please tell me that's not true. That is true. That's an email sent by Mark Tramo, a professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, ucla. Now, and at the time he sent it, he sent this to Epstein, quote, was just reading today that newborns will suck on a pacifier more vigorously if it trigger playback of a recording of her, his mother's voice than another woman's voice. Have you read David Brooks social animal was number one on New York Times books for quite a while. Now, at the time Mark Tramo sent this email to Epstein, Epstein was a registered child sex offender. There is no extra context given as to why he would send that. And that's not the only time Tramo appears in the files. Tramo also forwarded several 2010 messages he received from students seeking research guidance to FDA. Epstein, who responded to him, quote, are either of these cute? And Tramo said back, quote, we'll see in brackets. You're terrible. That is EFTA 00762250 if you want to take a look. Now, in a statement to UCLA's campus newspaper, Daily Bruin, he initially denied discussing students in email exchanges, then later acknowledged some involvement, though he says the students mentioned were not from his classes and that he did not commit any crime or have any knowled Epstein's abuse. So those were some of our top asked questions on Epstein. And I want to thank you for sending them in and please keep sending them. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok at anoushkamd. But we have to remember with this story, at the heart of it always is the survivors and the victims. Now, earlier I spoke to Eric Fadali from the Bloom law firm. He represents 11 survivors and he filled me in on an update. In their fight for justice.
- [16:03]
Eric Fadali
We've been scrutinizing everything the DOJ has been doing for decades because it's important to remember that the doj, law enforcement, administration after administration absolutely failed the survivors going all the way back from the 90s. So in the 90s of course, we've learned in the past, when these past few document dumps, that there was very credible reporting to the FBI about Jeffrey Epstein and what he was doing. And it appears from our research that the FBI didn't really do anything in response to very credible reporting, very credible complaint about Jeffrey Epstein's activities, which then resulted in allow Jeffrey Epstein to continue to abuse throughout the 90s into the 2000s without really any scrutiny, any real investigation. So they've been wronged every step of the way. There's been no justice for these victims despite their continued fight for decades. So we're looking into every avenue we researched and actually even filed a lawsuit against the FBI. Were certainly at this point looking into potential lawsuits against the Department of Justice for how they've handled this document dump, how they've handled their redactions.
- [17:06]
Anoushka Mitanda Doughty
But in filing that lawsuit against the doj, isn't their response? We're doing our best. We get this information, we're investigating what we can. And don't they technically have immunity from lawsuits?
- [17:17]
Eric Fadali
That's the problem. So the United States government, not surprisingly, makes laws that makes it difficult to sue the United States government. There's no shock there. So, yes, the FBI and most law enforcement agencies and federal entities and state entities as well, have some sort of immunity in the United States where they are able to avoid lawsuits, avoid liability for these types of things. Unfortunately, that might be. It looks like what we're running into with this lawsuit that we filed recently.
- [17:42]
Anoushka Mitanda Doughty
So if the judge dismisses that lawsuit and similar lawsuits filed by other law firms, does it set a precedent that there's no real way for them to scrutinize the investigation that was done?
- [17:51]
Eric Fadali
Unfortunately, I mean, that's certainly the message. That doesn't mean we're going to give up, though. And if you know anything about these or been following these Epstein survivors for, you know, these, the last decade or so, you can see that they're not going to give up either.
- [18:03]
Anoushka Mitanda Doughty
And you say there about their committal to getting justice for their younger selves. And it has been astounding. And everybody who is watching this case has seen how they fought for years and years. But a lot of the messages we're getting are from concerned citizens around the world, but particularly in the United States. And the number one question is, how do we support. How do we support the victims? What do they do?
- [18:22]
Eric Fadali
These survivors continue to fight and continue to amplify their own voices to make sure, for instance, this law was passed. And now we're seeing, you know, some accountability for Some of the men in Jeffrey Epstein's circle. The other thing is call your congressman, call your representatives, email them.
- [18:37]
Anoushka Mitanda Doughty
There has been calls from members of the public who say, you know, we've heard that survivors are willing and currently putting together a list of Jeffrey Epstein's alleged associates. Release the list. We believe you, we will believe what you say is one thing saying it. But doesn't that leave them in quite a vulnerable position?
- [18:55]
Eric Fadali
It absolutely does. And unfortunately, a lot of powerful men typically like to use the courts as an offense or perhaps even as a strong defense. And what they do is they will sue for defamation. That's sort of the new trend for very high profile defendants are accused is they will sue their accuser for defamation, for making any statement in the public about what they did. That creates a very difficult situation for the survivor who does not have the financial resources and money to defend it. And it's not pleasant to be sued. As someone who represents a lot of survivors against very accusers, against very high profile individuals, I've been sued personally, my lawsuit, my law firm has been sued, my clients have been sued. That's sort of the new tactic for high profile, wealthy accused men is to sue their accuser and sort of do it like, you know, the best defense is a good offense. So that's something they're up against.
- [19:50]
Anoushka Mitanda Doughty
So one last question. In light of all of this and everything that's happened over the past couple of weeks, what does justice now look like for the survivors and the victims?
- [19:58]
Eric Fadali
So justice looks exactly like this. First is full disclosure. That is every single document in the possession of the Department of Justice disclosed, released to the public with zero redactions other than those that are necessary to hide the identity of the victims and survivors of Jeffrey Epstein. That's number one. The next is accountability. Holding these people who enabled, who facilitated or perhaps even co abused with Jeffrey Epstein, hold them accountable. Now that could be criminal accountability, criminal justice, that could be civil, that could just be societal accountability, you know, shaming these men who clearly were turning a blind eye or actually facilitating Jeffrey Epstein's abuse or at worst, you know, abusing along with Jeffrey Epstein and then it's closure. So full disclosure, full transparency, full accountability and justice. And then once that's over, let these victims get peace, Let the survivors move on with their lives. But we can't get closure without accountability and justice. And we can't get accountability and justice until we get full transparency. So it has to be all three. It has to be in that order. But I think once the survivors get all three of those things. True transparency, true accountability, and then true closure. I think we can finally sort of rest and move forward.
- [21:15]
Anoushka Mitanda Doughty
Thank you so much.
- [21:16]
Eric Fadali
Always a pleasure. Thank you.
- [21:19]
Anoushka Mitanda Doughty
That's it for this episode of Fame Under Fire from BBC Sounds with me, Anushka Matanr. Doughty. Make sure you subscribe and turn on your push notifications so you never miss a thing. What would you do if your deepest secrets were held to ransom? In 2020, every patient who had used a Finnish psychotherapy service called Vastamo had their therapy notes stolen and held to ransom by a faceless, remorseless hacker. It could be some extortionist gang from Eastern Europe, or it could be somebody living next door to me. I'm Jenny Kleeman. Join me as I discover just how vulnerable our deepest secrets can be. I think I'm going to have a heart attack. From BBC Radio 4 and Intrigue, this is Ransom Man. Listen first on BBC Sounds. If there was a big red button that would just demolish the Internet, I.
- [22:23]
Interface Podcast Host
Would smash that button with my forehead. From the BBC, this is the Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world.
- [22:31]
Anoushka Mitanda Doughty
This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews.
- [22:34]
Interface Podcast Host
It's about what technology is actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday life, and all the bizarre ways people are using the Internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [22:49]
Solitaire Clash Advertiser
What's the game everyone is talking about this year? Solitaire Clash. That C L A S H is backed by millions of downloads and a 4.8 rating across app stores, a clear sign that players keep coming back. What really sets Solitaire Clash apart is the competitive feel that's simply fun to play. Each match moves quickly and keeps you engaged, giving you that satisfying sense of momentum and flow. As you play, it's easy to get into, enjoyable round by round and designed to let you experience competition in a way that feels exciting and rewarding. So if you've played Solitaire Clash before, now's a great moment to jump back in, play a few rounds and reconnect with that competitive experience, supported by a strong player community that continues to attract millions. If it's been a while or you could use a break, take a moment to open Solitaire Clash. It's the perfect go to game that fits into the busiest days. Download it today from wherever you get your apps. Remember Solitaire Clash, spelled C L A S H. Solitaire Clash, that's C L A S H.