KATHY BATES — on leading 'Matlock' at 76 and Meryl Streep in her dreams

Summary

Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson: An In-Depth Conversation with Kathy Bates

In the January 14, 2025 episode of Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson, host Jesse Tyler Ferguson sits down with the acclaimed actress Kathy Bates to explore her illustrious career, personal insights, and her leading role in the Paramount series Matlock. Recorded at La Betola di Toroni in Larchmont Village, California, this episode delves deep into Bates' journey in the entertainment industry, her relationships, and her reflections on life and legacy.

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A Stellar Introduction

Jesse Tyler Ferguson opens the conversation by reminiscing about Kathy Bates' iconic performances. He recalls watching her in the horror classic Misery, highlighting the duality of her role: “sweet and warm one moment and maniacally evil and untethered the next” (00:00). This performance not only terrified him but also fascinated him with its complexity. Ferguson emphasizes the significance of Bates winning the Best Actress Oscar for Misery, especially against formidable competitors like Meryl Streep in Postcards from the Edge and Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman. He remarks, “it felt monumental to me, confirming that sometimes when acting is that truthful and unique, anything is possible” (02:19).

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Theater Roots and Early Career

Bates shares her foundational experiences in theater, detailing her involvement in plays such as Vanities. She recounts rehearsing in unconventional spaces, describing it as “what was an old burlesque house” where she and her cast navigated “no heat” and “crummy attic” conditions (02:19–06:10). This period was marked by dedication and perseverance, laying the groundwork for her subsequent successes.

Ferguson inquires about her transition from theater to film, to which Bates attributes much of her early career development to playwright Terrence McNally. She credits McNally for recommending her for the role of Annie Wilkes in Misery, stating, “It was unbelievable. I mean, it was a wonderful part” (06:07). However, this relationship was not without its challenges, leading to an 18-year estrangement after Bates moved to Los Angeles to focus on her film career.

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Triumphs in Film and Television

Discussing her illustrious film career, Bates reflects on her versatility and the depth of her characters. She highlights roles such as those in Crimes of the Heart and Night Mother, underscoring her ability to bring authenticity and complexity to each character. Bates draws a parallel between her roles and those of Meryl Streep, expressing admiration while also acknowledging her own unique strengths: “I could never attempt doing it [Sophie’s Choice scene]. So when I see performances like that, or when she played Margaret Thatcher... I watched this. I'm thrilled by it, and I'm envious of it” (34:37).

In her current role as the lead in Matlock, Bates shares her excitement and the uniqueness of the show’s production. She describes the pilot process as feeling like a “well-oiled machine” and praises the showrunner Jenny Ehrman’s creative vision, likening her mind to “a Rubik's cube” (10:20–12:05). Bates also discusses the rigorous demands of filming, especially during long courtroom scenes, and her strategies for memorizing extensive dialogue through repetition (38:14).

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Personal Reflections and Family Dynamics

The conversation takes a poignant turn as Bates opens up about her personal life, particularly her relationship with her aging parents. She shares the emotional challenges of witnessing her parents grow older and her father's feelings of obsolescence: “And I remember he had tried to figure out... It’s so sad to talk about” (18:12). Bates reflects on the impact this had on her, questioning her career trajectory and feeling humiliated during her battle with breast cancer, a condition prevalent in her family.

Ferguson relates by sharing his experiences with aging parents, fostering a sense of empathy and mutual understanding. They discuss the importance of cherishing time with loved ones over material pursuits, with Bates advising, “Instead of going and buying clothes, save your money and go on a trip or spend time with your family” (20:16).

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Navigating Relationships in the Industry

Bates recounts her complex relationship with Terrence McNally, detailing how their professional partnership soured after her move to Los Angeles. McNally’s public criticisms led to their estrangement, which lasted until his 80th birthday party where they reunited with a simple hug, leaving lingering feelings but no formal reconciliation: “You don’t broach it. I didn’t broach it. We just hugged each other” (30:21).

She reflects on the broader theme of maintaining relationships within the high-pressure environment of the entertainment industry, emphasizing the nuanced and often complicated dynamics with influential figures.

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Continuous Growth and Legacy

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Bates’ perspective on acting and personal growth. She expresses a desire to continually evolve, drawing inspiration from peers like Anthony Hopkins and Meryl Streep. Bates shares a dream where she recognizes the impossibility of matching Streep’s transformative performances, leading to a moment of self-acceptance and redefining her artistic identity: “And then when I realized, no way, Jose, could I have done these roles... What does that mean?” (34:37–35:56).

Ferguson commends Bates' humility and relentless pursuit of excellence, remarking, “I do feel like you're one of the greatest actors of our time... Matlock is maybe teaching me some of these things that you have a deep desire to never be done” (33:06). Bates counters by emphasizing the perpetual journey of learning as an artist: “No one ever stop. As an artist, you're always thinking about it” (34:23).

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Closing Thoughts

As the episode concludes, Bates reflects on her gratitude and fulfillment in her current projects, particularly Matlock. She expresses immense satisfaction with how her career has intersected with her personal growth, stating, “I feel so lucky, Jesse. I really do” (40:09). Jessie Tyler Ferguson echoes this sentiment, highlighting Bates' enduring passion and dedication to her craft.

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Notable Quotes

• Jesse Tyler Ferguson: “It felt monumental to me, confirming that sometimes when acting is that truthful and unique, anything is possible.” (02:19)

• Kathy Bates: “It was unbelievable. I mean, it was a wonderful part.” (06:09)

• Kathy Bates: “You must. Because at the end you'll be saying, is this all there is?” (19:44)

• Kathy Bates: “I could never attempt doing it [Sophie’s Choice scene].” (34:37)

• Kathy Bates: “Instead of going and buying clothes, save your money and go on a trip or spend time with your family.” (20:16)

• Kathy Bates: “We just hugged each other.” (30:24)

• Kathy Bates: “No one ever stop. As an artist, you're always thinking about it.” (34:23)

• Kathy Bates: “I feel so lucky, Jesse. I really do.” (40:09)

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Conclusion

This episode of Dinner’s on Me offers a profound look into Kathy Bates' multifaceted life and career. From her groundbreaking roles in theater and film to her heartfelt reflections on family and personal growth, Bates provides listeners with an authentic and inspiring narrative. Jesse Tyler Ferguson masterfully guides the conversation, allowing for a rich and engaging dialogue that underscores the resilience and passion that define Bates' enduring legacy in the entertainment industry.

Transcript

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

The other day I was making lemonade with my sons, Beckett and Sully, and Beckett is a little bit of a perfectionist. I'm not sure where he gets that from. It's me. It's definitely me. But he was getting really upset about the seeds falling into the juice and it was turning into a bit of high drama. Now listen, there's an easier way to do this. Who knew? Wonderful seedless lemons are a 100% naturally seedless lemon variety. They're juicy, zesty, bright, and everything you love about lemons minus the See, that's right. No more seeds floating in your lemonade or Diet Coke or getting caught in your teeth when you take a bite of salad. Frankly, that's just a hazard. Wonderful seedless lemons are available nationwide at retailers such as Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, Walmart, Kroger, as well as select Costco outlets. Look for wonderful seedless lemons at your local retailer or visit wonderfulseedlesslemons.com to learn more. New year, new you wellness is especially top of mind for me this holiday season. After weeks of indulgent meals and late nights, I realized my body was begging for a reset. And Whole Foods Market is the perfect partner for that. They're your go to for high quality ingredients from organic produce to no antibiotics ever meats. Did you know Whole foods bans over 300 questionable ingredients from their foods and 150 from their supplements. Plus they offer over 41,000 organic options. Looking to up your protein game? Grab sustainable wild caught sockeye salmon, organic chicken breasts or their famous rotisserie chicken. Perfect for busy weeknights. And for those taking a dry January refresh with alcohol, free drinks like athletic brewing beer or mingles Paloma cocktail. They're delicious. Save time with meal hacks like salad kits ready to cook veggies and ready to heat soups. All available for pickup or delivery. Terms apply to all sales. Pickup and delivery make Whole Foods Market the home for your wellness routine. Hi, it's Jesse today on the show. You know her from our Oscar winning performance in the film Misery, her Emmy winning role in American Horror Story Coven, and her new leading role in the Paramount series Matlock. It's Kathy Bates.

[Kathy Bates]

We actually rehearsed and did vanities in what was an old burlesque house.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

When you say burlesque house, you mean.

[Kathy Bates]

Where guys went in and watched women strip.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Okay, okay, got it. This is dinner's on me and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Kathy Bates performance in Misery was one that I was probably too young to be seeing in theaters. But that's exactly where I saw it. I remember sitting in a theater watching that incredible terrifying magic that she was creating on screen. It was the first time I saw a performance like that. It was sweet and warm one moment and maniacally evil and untethered the next. That performance scared the shit out of me, but it also, it completely fascinated me. It was this complex high wire act that couldn't be put into a box. Even though she was nominated against iconic performances like, get this, Meryl Streep in Postcards from the Edge and Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman, she walked away with the best Actress Oscar that year and it felt monumental to me, confirming that sometimes when acting is that truthful and unique, anything is possible. Now, it wasn't until later that I learned that Kathy Bates spent the early part of her career developing roles in some of my favorite plays at some of the theaters that I would later work at myself. Although I've been introduced to Kathy a few times, I have never had the opportunity to spend more than 20 seconds with her at any given time. So when I got the email, she was booked as a guest on my podcast. I literally gasped. In fact, I think I replied to the email with the words gasping and fainting. Yeah. Way to stay cool. Jesse, how are you? So good to see you.

[Kathy Bates]

It's nice to see you as well. Thank you for inviting me.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I took Kathy to La Betola di Toroni in Larchmont Village, the newest sibling in the Grupo Taroni family, which has been around since the early 90s. With its roots as a small Italian grocer in Toronto, it was started by the then 25 year old Cosimo Mammaliti, an Italian Canadian wanting to preserve the Italian cooking he grew up with. Three decades later, Cosimo has nine restaurants across Toronto and la, including La Bitola that he partnered with restaurateur Shirin Kulez to open. And sometimes you can spot Cosimo alongside the chef in one of his Toronto kitchens, hand making Panzerotti. The food here is simple, but that's the point. It's about letting the ingredients sing, whether it's olive oil or San Marzano tomato. You won't find any funky reinventions here, but you will love the authenticity of the food and the company. Okay, let's get to the conversation. Have you eaten here, Kathy?

[Kathy Bates]

Yes.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, you have? Good.

[Kathy Bates]

The branzino's very good.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I was just looking at branzino. It's always a good option.

[Kathy Bates]

We could actually eat during this.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, but that's the Whole Point and.

[Kathy Bates]

Crunch dinners on me.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, you eat. We edit around chewing sounds. Yeah, it's great.

[Kathy Bates]

Oh, I might get a pizza.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Get a pizza. I'll have a piece.

[Kathy Bates]

Will you?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I will, absolutely. I am so happy you're doing this. You know, I'm a big theater. Like, that's where I started my career. I was in theater. So I'm always so excited when I meet other people who that was, what their roots were. I'm such, like, a fan of all of your early stuff that you. I wasn't even alive to see. But just knowing that, you know, you originated some of these great parts, like, I was just really so lucky.

[Kathy Bates]

In fact, I don't think I know for sure. If it wasn't for Terrence McNally, God rest him, I wouldn't have had the career out here. I mean, because Bill Goldman saw me in Frankie and Johnny, he recommended me to Rob to play Annie Wilkes in Misery.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, is that right?

[Kathy Bates]

Oh, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Wow.

[Kathy Bates]

So it was unbelievable. I mean, it was a wonderful part. I'm sorry I didn't get to play it in the movies, but.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Well, yeah, I mean, and I know you've talked about this, but there's been some really. Like, also Crimes of the Heart, you know, another great role that you got to originate out of town and, you know, didn't get to do that on film either.

[Kathy Bates]

And Night Mother, which is real.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And Night Mother. Right. Sissy Spacek did that. Wait, who did? Oh, Michelle Pfeiffer did Frankie and John. Yes.

[Kathy Bates]

Garry Marshall directed it. And he wanted movie stars.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Interesting.

[Kathy Bates]

He really wanted glamorous people to be kissing.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right, right. You know, and I was thinking, you know, Frankie and Johnny's been revived a few times on Broadway. I've seen both of those productions with Edie Falco playing the role at one point, and then Audra McDonald.

[Kathy Bates]

I wish I could have seen that.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I mean, it's gotta feel really special to also be a part of these shows that then go on to have these lives and great actresses like Edie Falco or Audra McDonald get to take over these. I mean, I know it's sometimes disappointing when obviously they go on to be made into films, but isn't it also cool to know that you were part of making the blueprint for these shows that live on and are considered classics?

[Kathy Bates]

It is. It's an honor to have created the role. And, you know, I've suddenly realized that that's what's happened with Matlock. I never thought of it in that way. And I realized just the Other day when we were doing an interview that, wow. It's like creating a role completely from scratch, you know, that no one's ever seen.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That's right.

[Kathy Bates]

And, you know, especially difficult because you don't have the four weeks of rehearsal. Rehearsal. You know, I had to really dig deep to do this part.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. Hi. How are you?

[Kathy Bates]

So welcome to la betola di Teroni.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

My name is Paulina. I'll be taking care of you. Hi, Paulina.

[Kathy Bates]

Thank you. I think I'm gonna have the pizza rustica. The pizza rustica. Okay, excellent.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna have a piece of the pizza as well, but I'm gonna do caprese salad.

[Kathy Bates]

Okay, excellent.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And do you want to start off with any drinks? We are the only ones on Larchmont.

[Kathy Bates]

With a full bar. You have what?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

We have a full bar here.

[Kathy Bates]

What kind of wines do you have? Do you have a Brunello? We do. Oh, I'd love a glass of Brunello.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, yes. I'm gonna just do. Do you have a spark? I'll do a sparkling water and lime. Sparkling water and lime. You've got it. Someone's gotta keep this train on the tracks.

[Kathy Bates]

Well, honey, you're driving anyway.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Kathy, I love Matlock so much. I'm gonna be really honest, you know, it is a title that is often associated with people a few generations above me. Matlock is a show my parents watched and loved. I was like, oh, they're rebooting Matlock. And within moments, I was like, okay. They've got a very interesting perspective on this show. It's so stylized. It's so unique. It felt like I was in very good hands. And then I got to the end of the pilot and I was like, oh, this is what we're doing with this. And it's a really incredible twist. I love it so much. It's so fantastic. You're so wonderful on it.

[Kathy Bates]

Thank you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's a huge hit. Massive, massive hit. It was picked up for a second season after the second episode aired, which is unheard of. How does it feel to be, you know, you're 76 now on what looks to be a very big hit. Number one on the call sheet, I'm sure. It's a huge, incredible workload. I mean, what is that like?

[Kathy Bates]

It's like. It's beyond my wildest dreams. I've been counseled by my PR lady not to say it's the best experience that I've had, but I can't help it. I can't Help it. And it starts with Amy Reisenbach. She's amazing. She's the president of the network. And Jenny Ehrman, I mean, to answer.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Your question, Jenny, the creator.

[Kathy Bates]

Jenny Ehrman, who did Jane the Virgin? Yes, yes, she's the creator and she's just unique. I've never met a creator like this. The way her mind works, the only way I can say is like a Rubik's cube.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, I've heard you mention that before.

[Kathy Bates]

Well, you know, it took me a while and then I said, God, you know, the whole way you put this together is like a Rubik's cube. And she said, exactly. She said, you know, I look at my son playing with his. And she said she wants people to be fooled. And I feel a real responsibility as being number one on the call sheet and an executive producer to go in with a lot of energy and, you know, to keep, keep everything going and happy. I mean, I know actors talk about this all the time, but truly this is a unique experience for me. Absolutely unique. And I'm just pinching myself every day.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, I mean you could tell as an, as an audience that it's a well run ship and when things. And you know, people said this a lot about the Modern Family pilot and I really did feel it about the Matlock pilot as well, is it sort of felt like a show that had been on the air for years, like it just clicks. You know, pilots are hard. You're introducing a lot of characters, you're introducing the whole world of the show and sometimes it takes over exposure and specifically because you were a show that was already a known title but nothing like the original show you were actually working against like what people might have already been perceiving about it. And it was so clear. So immediately it just really felt simpatico and it felt like it was immediately a well oiled machine.

[Kathy Bates]

It's always been there.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, it's always been there.

[Kathy Bates]

Did you love doing 11 years?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh my God, Kathy. I mean, the thing is, I mean, you understand this as an, I guess, you know, when you're doing a play, you can do that for quite some time and it feels like a family. But you don't really always get that in television and film. I don't know, sometimes it feels too fleeting and too fast. So to have something that feels like a real full time job doing the thing that I love doing more than anything in the world, you know, being an actor was such a gift.

[Kathy Bates]

How many episodes did you do every year?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Well, it sort of fluctuated at the very beginning, it was like 24 or maybe even 26. I know.

[Kathy Bates]

Oh, my God.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I know. Well, you're doing 18, aren't you?

[Kathy Bates]

We did. Yeah. And I think. Yes. And I think that's all I can say because there's a surprise when you get to the end of the season.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Well, now I'm curious, but yeah, 24. And then I think the final season, we did 16 because they wanted 24 episodes and we said. I think we said 14, and then they settled on 16. But we were able to finish shooting the series two weeks before the pandemic. So had we done their original order, we wouldn't have been able to finish. So I felt like that was the universe smiling on us and saying. Because if I had not been able to have closure with that 11 year show, it would have been horrible. Or to like, finish it on some weird.

[Kathy Bates]

Yeah, God's way. God's way.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

So I'm happy it ended the way it did. Oh, here it comes.

[Kathy Bates]

Oh, my Lord.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That was fast. Okay, thank you, thank you. Thank you for cutting it for us.

[Kathy Bates]

Now, is this the rustica that has the. This is the rustica.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yep.

[Kathy Bates]

It's gonna have our tajka olives. Oh, it has the sausage. Oh, wonderful.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

There as well. Gorgeous. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Kathy tells me about feeling a disconnect with her family after leaving home. And we hear who she wishes she had brought to the Oscars the year she won for Misery. Okay, be right back. So picture this. You're running a business and suddenly you realize, oh, no, you need to hire someone. Like yesterday. You've been there, right? But don't panic. I got you covered. Just use Indeed. Why waste time on other job sites hoping someone notices your post? Indeed's Sponsored Jobs helps you stand out and hire the right person and fast. Here's how it works. Sponsored Jobs bumps your post to the top of the page for all the right candidates. That gets your post in front of the eyes of the people you actually want to hire. Indeed. Just makes hiring so much easier. I remember a time when finding the right person felt like a full time job in itself. If only I'd used Indeed back then, I could have avoided so much stress and maybe even found time to, I don't know, go to cooking school. Oh, and also, there's no strings attached. With Indeed Sponsored Jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions or long term contracts. You only pay for results. Want to know how fast they are in the time it's Taken me to tell you this, 23 hires were made on Indeed. 23. Yeah. That's pretty impressive. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. Hey, it's Jesse. So I've got a bit of a crazy life. I have two kids under five, two dogs, a husband, a busy career, and. And I also just added another thing to my to do list. Hosting on Airbnb. Now, to be honest, I haven't yet pulled the trigger because I'm getting a little overwhelmed with everything I would need to do to be on top of everything as a host. I'd want to put gorgeous photos up to show off the amazing space. I would want to make sure that I'm as responsive as possible to guest and anticipate any questions or needs they might have. You know, you gotta get those good reviews. That's why I'm so excited about Airbnb's new co host feature. Now I can hire a local co host to handle all the details while I'm away. They can create my listing, manage reservations, communicate with guests, and even style my space. So it's perfect for every guest. It's like having a trusted friend who's really good at this stuff. Just take care of everything. I can focus on my family and my work, knowing that my home and my guests are in great hands. Find a co [e-mail] host and we're back with more dinners on me. What I was going to say about the show, one of the themes I love so much about it is this idea that when you become a certain age, you do feel isolated and you feel invisible, and it's something that your character Maddie uses to her advantage. But I'm also curious. I mean, I feel like you've spoken a lot about this sort of renaissance of your career in the. You know, with Ryan Murphy, you know, using you in his American Horror Stories. But was there a point where you felt were you yourself were ever invisible or not being given opportunity or.

[Kathy Bates]

Yes. You know, Ryan really rejuvenated my career. And right before he gave me the opportunity to do the show, I had breast cancer and Harry's Law had been canceled rather unpleasantly. That's all I'll say. And so when that happened, when that summer happened, it was very. It was degrading. I felt kind of humiliated. I felt like I'd let my cast down and had never been through an experience like that. And then breast cancer, which does run in my family, so I wasn't surprised. But it was More painful than I thought it was going to be. And I really felt like, is my career over?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Kathy Bates]

So that's been hard. And I also think being born to older parents, I saw my parents go through old age more than seeing them or spending time when they were young. My sisters, who are nine and 15 years older than I am, had a very different experience with them, but I saw them go through old age. And my father often said, I don't understand why you spend all of these years learning all of this stuff and then you just go. And that, and that's. And then all of that that you learn just goes away too. So seeing him feel old and useless, and I remember he had tried to figure out. This is so sad to talk about. Jesse, do you want to talk about this?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

We don't have to talk about it anymore. But like, I, I think it's true for so many of us. When you watch your parents. Parents pass and, you know, I'm, I'm doing it. You are much younger when your parents pass than I am with when I'm. Now my parents are getting old and, and, and, you know, sick. But for me, it definitely feels like, okay, how am I going to live the rest of the years that I'm lucky enough to live in a way that, you know, I, I guess you want to live differently than your parents did, just health wise, but also. And with more joy, maybe. I mean, I sometimes just feel like I want to. Not that my parents weren't joyful, but you want to really embrace every day that's given to you.

[Kathy Bates]

You must. Because at the end you'll be saying, is this all there is?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right. Well, and it's interesting when you said that and you learn all these things and then you just die. I feel like for me, and maybe this is just because I'm optimistic and I'm 49 years old, but I feel like I'm collecting things and I'm gonna be full when I pass. And, like, I'm hopefully full of wonderful things and wonderful experiences. And, you know, you always say you can't take it with you, and that's part of it. But, like, it's okay, I think, to fill up as much as you possibly can and obviously share these stories with your loved ones.

[Kathy Bates]

Well, that's. It's like to spend time with people. I don't mean to interrupt you, but. And I'm sure you already know this, but you know, the conversations that you're having with people and the time that you spend with your loved ones, you know, Instead of going and buying clothes, save your money and go on a trip or spend time with your family. And how many kids do you have?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Two. They're young. They're 4 and 2 years old.

[Kathy Bates]

Oh, yeah?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Kathy Bates]

Boy and girl?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Two boys.

[Kathy Bates]

Oh, great.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, they're very sweet.

[Kathy Bates]

Well, that's your life is going to be, right?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I mean, when did you lose your parents? How old were you?

[Kathy Bates]

My mom was the only one that was alive when I blown my ass, so it would have been 90.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

She was there to see that. I love that. I was gonna ask if they were able to see.

[Kathy Bates]

She was at home with my sister because she was in her 80s then. And in retrospect, I wish I had brought her instead of my fiance, whom I forgot later. Well, I can't blame him for that, but whom I forgot to thank. And along with forgetting to thank my mother enough.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Do you know what did your sister tell you? Like, what her response was when you won?

[Kathy Bates]

I don't recall if she did. It's so strange, you know, I think when I left home, suddenly my work and the people that I met at school became my found family. And I was so focused on my career. It was two very different worlds. And I think also because having older parents, I mean, it was no fun for any of us during the 60s. My dad was born in 1900, so, you know, there was a lot of turmoil, I think, in the house because of that age difference. But those two worlds have always been so separate. Has it been that way for you?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Absolutely, 100%. I think a lot of it was because neither one of my parents were in the entertainment field at all. My dad is a retired microbiologist, my mom is a retired rn. They both support the arts and love that I would do it, but there was no connection there. I remember sitting in the living room the night of the Tony Awards and just begging everyone to stop talking so bad because I was watching the Tonys. Like, no, they weren't interested in those things. And so I just felt like when I did go to New York and I started doing theater and I went to acting school, like this was the place where I was blossoming and becoming myself. So, of course, I was more comfortable around those people that were making me feel more like myself, the person I felt like I was inside. And, you know, it was always tricky when you would go back home and feeling small again in a way, and feel. Feeling like under the thumb of this past version of yourself. It was a very complicated. I definitely felt like it was two lives and I'm sure a lot of people feel that way with their. With their adult lives and their childhood lives, but.

[Kathy Bates]

Well, it's. I. I'm glad someone else feels the same way I do about the two lives bifurcated that, you know, 100%. That's really resonates with me because I think once after I had a success in New York, they said, aren't you ready to come home? And. But they didn't understand that I never would.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right.

[Kathy Bates]

You know, that I. I, too, just knew, even though I had a hard time at first, and it. It took a lot of starts and stutters and stops to get there, but I was determined and. And, you know, like you say, it was your home. You found your home, and you certainly.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Don'T make it ton of money doing theater.

[Kathy Bates]

Nope.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

How did you support yourself in those early years when you were doing theaters?

[Kathy Bates]

Well, you know, we had this amazing experience when we were in New York on the Megazillotron. They did.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

What is a megazillotron?

[Kathy Bates]

In Times Square? This huge. Huge.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

The big screen. Yeah.

[Kathy Bates]

For 15 minutes. They put my picture up and reviews.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

What?

[Kathy Bates]

Yes. Oh, I have to show you pictures of it. It's amazing.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

For which show?

[Kathy Bates]

For Matlock.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, for Matlock. Oh, okay. I thought you were talking about.

[Kathy Bates]

Oh, back then in theater. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It was like, for Frankie and John.

[Kathy Bates]

No, I know. Are you kidding me?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

No, I'm with you.

[Kathy Bates]

So. And I realized when I got there that not far from that was where I went to get a job as a temporary. A temporary. You know, I have jobs, too. Yeah. And I ended up at the Museum of Modern Art, working. After a while, they started to chat with me about it. Did I want to study to be an accountant? I just. I put the brakes on. It's like, you know, I literally packed up and went home, and I thought, okay, what do we do next? So.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Kathy Bates]

What for you, though? Where did you start out?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I started out in theater. I did. I got my Equity card, actually, pretty easily. I was very lucky. I did Shakespeare in the park, and the show was a big success in the park and then eventually transferred to Broadway, where it abruptly closed. It only lasted a few months on Broadway, and then I didn't do a lot for a while. I had a. It was a rough go, you know, trying to find out.

[Kathy Bates]

What did you do? I waited tables.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You know, I worked at a gift shop. I worked at a gift shop, and I worked in coffee shops, and that was. And I would do little regional theaters. I would do off Broadway Things. But there was times when the paychecks that you would make doing these Off Broadway shows were not as good as the unemployment. And I would really have to think, like, do I want to eat or do I want to grow my artistic self and take these great parts? And there was times when I was really nervous about it because I would. To be taking work would actually mean a pay cut because my unemployment was more.

[Kathy Bates]

Oh, my goodness.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Did you have moments between these? Because you had very successful outings in New York, you know, Frankie and Johnny.

[Kathy Bates]

And even before that, you know, we were, we, we started, we did Vanities, which was a play that was very successful Off Broadway. Yeah, he went to school with me. And it was directed by Garland Wright, God rest him, who went to school with us. Brilliant director who later went on to the Guthrie to run that theater. But we actually rehearsed and did Vanities in what was an old burlesque house.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

When you say burlesque house, you mean.

[Kathy Bates]

Where guys went in and watched women strip?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Okay, okay, got it. Just want to make sure our guests were.

[Kathy Bates]

Yeah, there were these old derelict places and, you know, we rehearsed in this kind of crummy attic and there was no heat. And so we really were pioneers there. And when we were very successful with that, I didn't have to go to unemployment anymore.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Kathy tells me about her complicated eight year relationship with legendary playwright Terrence McNally, her dream about Meryl Streep, and an iconic Oscar moment with her. Okay, be right back. Tex and Diane had it all until the night neither of them wished to relive the night only one of them camped.

[Kathy Bates]

She said, tex, what did you do?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You shot me. Join us as we dive deep into a world of power, money and greed and one man's secret quest to grab the million dollar fortune of his deceased wife. From Sony Music Entertainment and Waveland Road. This is deadly fortune. Listen wherever you get your podcast.

[Kathy Bates]

Hi, I'm Laura Webb. And I'm Lindsey Wolfington. We are two friends and fellow music supervisors who are obsessed with sad songs. So we started a podcast called Sad Song Queens where we dive deep into the songs that make us cry. We are always wondering what the story is behind a song, and we thought, what better way to find out than by having authentic conversations with the creators of the songs themselves. So join us for in depth conversations with Ash Licky Lee, Sarah Semel, and many more. So grab those tissues and let's get into it on the Sad Song Queens podcast, wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And we're back with more dinners on me. Would you. I love Terrence McNally. I've always loved him, but I didn't. I never really got to work with him much. And, you know, he's just such an iconic playwright. What are your memories of working with him on Frankie and Johnny, which was one of his biggest successes?

[Kathy Bates]

I loved working with him. I always felt that Frankie and Johnny should have been one act, like an hour and a half. And Paul Benedict directed it. F. Murray Abraham was the first. Johnny and I enjoyed playing it. But then when I left to come out to la, Terrence was very upset, and he would make fun of me because I'd say, I want to concentrate on my film career. And he was very possessive of his muses. And then he wrote an article for the arts section of the New York Times. It was not very kind to me.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, no. What do you say?

[Kathy Bates]

Yeah. And this was right after I moved out to LA in the 80s. And do you know that we didn't speak for about 18 years?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Really?

[Kathy Bates]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

When did you reconnect with him?

[Kathy Bates]

At his 80th birthday party.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, wow.

[Kathy Bates]

He was beautiful that night. You know, it was good to see him. That last night.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Did it feel like there was repair there or forgiveness? How? I can only imagine that after 18 years, you said, there's gotta be a sense of, like, why were we even fighting in the first place? No, there wasn't. How did you broach. Did you. How was. How was it like? Obviously, you're invited to his.

[Kathy Bates]

You don't broach it. I didn't broach it. We just hugged each other.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Okay. Okay.

[Kathy Bates]

You know, there were no apologies or anything, and. But it ended on a good note. And I think he passed away not long after that.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. Yeah. It was a big loss. You know, he was a very unique voice. Huge loss.

[Kathy Bates]

Huge, huge loss.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I'm glad that you had the opportunity to have him as a friend. And it's always the people we admire the most that I feel like we have really complicated, complex relationships with.

[Kathy Bates]

Listen, I remember him coming into my dressing room one night and seeing a script by another playwright.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Wow.

[Kathy Bates]

On my table. And he was not happy, really. I remember now sitting next to a woman. I can't remember her name. And I said. I told her my story. She said, oh, we all had a Terran story.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I love that, though. You know, you're part of history, truly. You know, I also consider myself a character actor, which I know you do, as Well, I know you've talked a lot about, you know, having the great success of Misery, obviously, but playing a character that is such an outsider and then having difficulty sort of figuring out what the next steps were. And, you know, even though you've had great success, huge success, you won an Oscar for this role to sort of feel like, okay, now what? And like, not feeling like people didn't know what to do with you.

[Kathy Bates]

Yeah. When I look back at my career, I feel like it was stepping stones. It wasn't a bridge. You know, at the very beginning, there were many times when I thought, I don't know if I want to do this, and then a job would come along. The roles that I had to play, I wasn't the same as Meryl Streep. I wasn't as brilliant as she was in order to be able to do the amazing roles she did and the transformations that she made. And so when you start out and you have those opportunities, each one is so different. It's so difficult that you build your strength. It's like hours in the air. And I always think of Dolores Claiborne as my Meryl Streep role when I was really able to do that. And I think if I had had more of those, I would have developed into a better actress than I am now. And hopefully that's what I'm going to be able to learn with Matlock.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Well, there's a few things that you just said that struck me. First of all, I mean, you might get sick of hearing this, but, like, I do feel like you're one of the greatest actors of our time. So to hear you say, like, I could have been a better actress is actually super comforting to hear, because I love that you have this in saying, like, Matlock is maybe teaching me some of these things that you have a deep desire to never be done.

[Kathy Bates]

Oh, no, I don't think we are.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That's incredible.

[Kathy Bates]

I don't think we are. Do you?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I don't. I never feel that way, but I feel like there are people who are like, they've achieved a certain level, and it's sort of like there's no room for growth. And I think it's such a disservice to yourself, too.

[Kathy Bates]

No, not at all. I had the privilege years ago of giving Anthony Hopkins his Oscar for Silence of the Lambs. And so when he won through the Father, I thought, you know, I'm going to get in touch with him, because I'd read some of the interviews that he'd done about how he changed the method of working and that he had started out marking his scripts up, which I still do now, and really digging in and writing all these kinds of notes and stuff. But then as he got in later in life, he says now he's learned his lines so well, like the back of his hand. And then he just has fun. But then he does say he has to throw in a little of that magic, you know, which makes him Anthony Hopkins.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Kathy Bates]

You know? So I wrote to him and he said, yes, that's what I've been doing. And. Cause I was getting ready to start this, and I was terrified. And so no one doesn't ever stop. As an artist, you're always thinking about it, you know? Don't you feel that? Do you feel that?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I hope. I love that. That's why I like doing it. I love being a student of it. But I guess it's just always when you look at someone who's accomplished as you are, you know, you sometimes think, well, what else is there to learn?

[Kathy Bates]

Let me put it to you this way.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Okay, Go ahead.

[Kathy Bates]

Think about this train scene in Sophie's Choice.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yes.

[Kathy Bates]

Where she is acting an incredibly emotional scene with these two children in Polish. Thank you very much. I could never do it. I could never attempt doing it. So when I see performances like that, or when she played Margaret Thatcher. And it was a complete transformation. And I watched this. I'm thrilled by it, and I'm envious of it.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I get it.

[Kathy Bates]

And I remember having a dream. I have to share this with you. It's really kind of. I remember in this dream, I was in a tub, empty, but I was in it. And I was, for some reason, wearing Jackie's dress from the assassination, the suit. And Meryl was outside the tub, and I was looking up at her, and I had had a stroke, and I said, you win. Because I think up until that moment, I was comparing myself to her. And then when I realized, no way, Jose, could I have done these roles that there was this sudden moment in my life when I had to think, rethink. What does that mean?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I'm wondering, do you. I mean, you literally were nominated against Meryl Streep. She was in Postcards from the Edge. You won for Misery. Do you think any of that is part of this dream? Like, did you feel maybe I never made that connection? You were in a competition, and you did come out on top, so you won in that version. But in this dream, it's just. It's very interesting.

[Kathy Bates]

Also, I. We were both nominated the year that Katherine Zeta Jones won for Chicago, Right.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Kathy Bates]

And I forget what Meryl was up for. We were both. For supporting.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You were about Schmidt, I think, right? Yeah, that was about Schmidt.

[Kathy Bates]

I think that was it. And she sailed by during the commercial break, said, come on, we're going to the bar.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Meryl said this.

[Kathy Bates]

So he went to the bar. It was a very Joan Crawford, Bette Davis moment. You know, she slammed her evening bag down on the bar and said, I'm having a vodka straight, neat, or whatever. And I slammed my evening bag down. I said, I'm having what she's having, you know, and we tossed it. It was a moment. It really was a moment when I could see. We turned and toasted each other. And I could see in her eyes, and I'm sure she could see in mine how we wanted it so badly.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Kathy Bates]

You know.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Kathy Bates]

That we thought, oh, we're so close, you know? But I. I've just admired her so much, and I. And the trajectory that her career has had and the amazing roles that she's done. And like I say, it's hours in the air, and you learn from everything that you do. And that's why I'm so thrilled about Matlock, because my friend Philippe Benar, who was an actor years ago, said his acting coach told him that you have this chest of drawers and that you have in this drawer something that you use for the part, and then this. And I have an apothecary's chest now, and I get to use the whole damn thing for Matlock. And that's what's thrilling to me, because I do hope we run forever. This.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I mean, it's a huge undertaking. You have incredibly long scenes. Some of these scenes in the courtroom, you have so much dialogue. I mean, do you have a trick that you've.

[Kathy Bates]

That helps you by rote, which means you repeat it over and over and over and over and over again. But you learn to learn your lines so well, like the back of your hand, so that you can focus on the other actor, because you can only think about one thing at a time. So the method is you start by very simply repeating what the other actor is saying. You have to focus enough to know exactly what they're saying, and then, of course, you go on from there. But just.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I mean, I find with theater, I can always get to that point. But sometimes with camera work, when you have such limited rehearsal, I really panic about the truncated time that you have before having to produce a performance.

[Kathy Bates]

So what I loved about Six Feet under was that There were theater actors like Lauren Ambrose was really, really young. And I also sat right by the camera. I didn't sit back at Video Village. In fact, I have an apple box at home that the grips made for me and they stained, you know, my name and the show and everything. But I liked sitting under the camera so that I could really see the performance. And I remember being, yeah, I remember being right with her on Munstein, that we had Peter Kraus and her sitting on these washing machine in the dryer and she's really upset and I just kept coaching her through the next bit and the next bit and the next bit till I could get her to the level that I wanted her to be at. So you have to storyboard all of that?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, of course. You're having this incredible moment in your career. It's really been remarkable to see just how happy you seem as well.

[Kathy Bates]

No, I feel so lucky, Jesse. I really do. I. I just. I don't know how this all intersected this time.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You're a good person.

[Kathy Bates]

We all deserve it.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

But you, you're. You're a good person and you're fabulous actress and you deserve this.

[Kathy Bates]

Well, I've certainly worked for a long time.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That too. This episode of Dinners On Me was recorded at La Betola de Toroni in Larchmont Village, California. And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinners On Me. Plus, as a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad just click try free at the top of the Dinners on Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. Dinners on Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our associate producer is Angela Vang. Sam Baer engineered this episode. Hans Dale, she composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Tameka Balance Kolasny and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.