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- [00:00]
Advertiser 1
This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever finish a movie and the next thing you know you're totally obsessed. Like I'm talking about ordering a book about 70s film lighting or buying the soundtrack on vinyl kind of obsessed. Whatever it is, prime helps you get more out of whatever passions you're into or getting into. Head to Amazon.com prime and follow your obsession wherever it goes.
- [00:24]
Advertiser 2
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- [01:01]
Cole Kushner
Today's episode of Dissect is brought to you by. Recently Sonos added a brand new product to their home sound system family. It's called Beam, a smart compact soundbar for your TV. Great for mid sized rooms and TVs. The beam is Amazon Alexa enabled for easy voice control and delivers crystal clear, richly detailed sound for movies, shows and video games, plus music, podcasts and more. It's got pretty cool built in settings like speech enhancement that adds clarity to dialogue and night sound mode that allows you to enjoy late night TV without waking the whole house. And what's more, Sonos beam is only $399 for bolder sound and larger rooms. Sonos also has Play Bar and Playbase. Pre order Sonos beam now@sonos.com and start your home sound system today. Welcome to Dissect. Long form musical analysis broken into short digestible episodes. I'm your host Cole Kushner. As you'll remember from the first episode this season, Frank Ocean began his music career as a songwriter in Los Angeles, going then by his given name, Lonnie Bro. You'll also remember Frank was signed to Def Jam as a solo artist after meeting a man named tricky Stewart in 2009. Well, I recently had the pleasure to visit Tricky Stewart in his studio in Atlanta, Georgia. I wanted to talk to him about those early days with Frank and what was going on behind the scenes that led to the release of his first project, Nostalgia Ultra. But beyond that, I also wanted to talk to Tricky about his legendary career in the music industry. If you don't happen to recognize Tricky Stewart by name, you without a Doubt know his work very well. He's a songwriter and producer that worked with everyone from Mariah Carey, Rihanna, Beyonce, Celine Dion, Justin Bieber. Seriously, the list goes on and on and on. You know that little song Single Ladies by Beyonce? Or how about Umbrella by Rihanna?
- [03:04]
Interviewer
That's Tricky.
- [03:05]
Cole Kushner
He's a living legend that's been working as a producer since he was a teenager, and he's got the plaques to prove it. The walls of his Atlanta studio are covered with awards. A living history of some of the best pop music over the last 20 years. It was really a pleasure talking with Tricky. We cover how he came up in the industry, influential figures in his life, how he wrote, like, four hit songs in 48 hours, his relationship with Frank Ocean, his thoughts on Frank's new music, and what he's been up to these days. He's very candid and honest, and he had some great stories to tell. Okay, so without further ado, here's my conversation with the great Tricky Stewart, recorded in his beautiful Red Zone studio in Atlanta, Georgia.
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Interviewer
All right, well, welcome to Dissect. Actually, it's kind of welcome to your studio, but welcome to Red Zone. Yeah.
- [03:58]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
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Interviewer
Thanks for. For taking the time to talk to me. Super excited, man.
- [04:02]
Frank Ocean
Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
- [04:04]
Interviewer
Cool. Let's jump right in. So I wanted to start just kind of where you were born. So you're born in Markham, Illinois, Is that correct?
- [04:13]
Frank Ocean
Markham, which is Suburb of Chicago. You know, most people that are from Markham would say or born in Markham would say that they were. They live in Chicago.
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Interviewer
Oh, got it.
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Frank Ocean
But I was born there and grew up in Dalton, Illinois.
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Interviewer
Got it. Okay. And you come from a musical family, right?
- [04:30]
Frank Ocean
Yeah, pretty musical. I guess you could say that. I mean, everywhere I looked in my family was music, from my mother and my father to my cousins to my brothers, to everybody. Everything around me just always music.
- [04:44]
Interviewer
So you wrote songs that. When you're Starting, when you're 12, I'm wondering how that happens. Is it just because you're surrounded by music, your whole life is just kind of natural?
- [04:54]
Frank Ocean
I think when I started writing at 12, it was more so because that's what my cousin wanted to do, and we just kind of did everything together, so I think he was probably more interested in it than I was, but because I was more on the athlete side and, you know, really like, playing sports and outdoor stuff, motorcycles and all that kind of stuff. And music was good, but it was just something that, you know, it wasn't like something I used to spend time thinking about other Than just loving it.
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Interviewer
Oh, interesting. So when did you start taking it seriously?
- [05:27]
Frank Ocean
About two weeks ago. No, just kidding. I don't know. I think I started taking it serious when. When opportunity started to come from it, and my older brothers really went and started making their way in music. And me, at the time, I was about 15 years old, watching what they were doing. They kind of moved out of the house, kind of were, you know, spreading their wings as. As young people do. And, you know, they went up, you know, started going downtown and, you know, started a company and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, for me, at that point, it was just kind of like, you know, they were, you know, my brothers were my mentors. They're my, you know, like, father figures and brothers and everything. So it was kind of like what they. What they always did always looked fun as well. So I had that. I've been playing in church, been playing sports and doing it all, but at the end of the day, like, music was just something that came very, very natural to me Just because it was given to me at such a young age.
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Tricky Stewart
Yeah. Yeah.
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Interviewer
So when did Lou el Silas enter into your life? It seems like when you met him. That's kind of when things.
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Frank Ocean
Well, lil Silas is my favorite A and r of all time, My favorite executive music executive of all time. I actually started working with him because my oldest brother Laney is a producer as well, and lanie is one of my mentors as a producer, and really got the thing started for us in the record business. And through that, his relationship of breaking into the business in his own way, through getting a publishing deal in a traditional way, he had started getting really big executives to pay attention to him. And lewell was one of those executives thatand. I believe he was the first executive to ever fly to Chicago to really take Aaron hall, who was scorching hot at the time, and put him in the studio with my brother. And that was a big deal because Teddy Riley was obviously king at that time. They had just split, and the respect that he had for my brother Laney kind of led him to go. Well, this is Teddy, and he's king. And we think that you're the guy that can make the Aaron hall album, and that was kind of a really big deal for us at that time.
- [07:47]
Interviewer
Okay, so how do you go from Chicago? So that was happening in Chicago, right?
- [07:52]
Frank Ocean
Yeah.
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Interviewer
So then how do you get to Atlanta, which you currently, you know, kind of set up your roots here and really started to take off?
- [07:59]
Frank Ocean
Well, what ended up happening was, I Went out to. We went out to Los Angeles. We moved. I was 17 years old at the time, had left school, had started working downtown with my brothers, and my brother was getting really busy, so we went out to la, we moved, and from there we spent about two, two and a half, three years out in LA working on just different projects. You know, my career is semi taking off, but I'm getting opportunity, but not really delivering on anything in a massive way, you know. But at the same time, I am a working producer, so.
- [08:43]
Interviewer
And you're how old at this time?
- [08:44]
Frank Ocean
17. 17 and 18. You know, I'm. I'm doing Brandy's first demos, I'm doing Immature's first album, things like that, you know what I mean? So things are. Things are going well. Well enough to take care of myself so that we're good, you know. But with that being said, you know, what Lil Silas was doing, that really led me to the love of LA and Babyface. And LA and Babyface and also Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis. And at that time, they were starting LaFace Records in Atlanta. And that's kind of how we ended up in Atlanta, because through this girl named Tyvee Terman. Man, what was I doing? I was doing her album. She was in a group called Black Girl. And Black Girl was signed to Joel Katz company here that he had started in Atlanta. And her and Toni Braxton were roommates, and she was singing demos for LA and Face. I was making records for her and her on her solo project in LA or her group project. She came back telling la, you know, about this producer that she had met that she was working with, and she was really super passionate, thought we were super dope at that time. It was tricky. And Sepp, which is also my cousin, and we came down here, LA Curtis brought us down here immediately on her recommendation, and we got in there and the, you know, the relationship started hot and heavy, and it led to a great relationship that we still have with LA and Babyface to this day. But it all really started because Tyvee was so passionate about playing our music for la. And LA heard it and identified with it, you know, and this is. Before we could even record our songs, we had to sing them ourselves live, you know what I mean? So there was no demo, there was no records. Like, I sat in a truck, you know, from my first meeting with LA in front of the Four Seasons, and I had. Me and my cousin had to sing him the song. And that song ended up giving us the life that we have here in Atlanta, which Is the studio that you are in right now was built that year from that song Crazy.
- [11:05]
Interviewer
What song was it?
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Frank Ocean
It was a flop. It was calm. It was. It was a. I can't remember. Something. A little something. It was a little something.
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Interviewer
It would fit now.
- [11:16]
Frank Ocean
Yeah. But no, you know, at that time they were building the company and we were just kind of like, yo, we'll move, but what are we moving to?
- [11:24]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
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Frank Ocean
You know, and my brother Mark, who's my manager, was just like, we got to get something.
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Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
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Frank Ocean
Something that we can't get from being in la.
- [11:33]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
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Frank Ocean
You know, so what you. When you walk into this building, this 15,000 square foot building, that. That was the thing that we couldn't get in la.
- [11:43]
Interviewer
Oh. So this has been day one right here.
- [11:45]
Frank Ocean
Day one.
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Interviewer
Oh, crazy.
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Frank Ocean
Yeah. So all the records.
- [11:48]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
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Frank Ocean
Have touched this place.
- [11:50]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [11:51]
Interviewer
Insane. It's really cool.
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Frank Ocean
Yeah.
- [11:53]
Interviewer
So it seems like your experience coming up was pretty organic, one thing kind of leading to another, meeting certain people that then introduce you to other people. Was there ever a time where you kind of question what you're doing? Like when you any, like, low points, when you're like, I don't know if this is, you know, what I should be doing?
- [12:12]
Frank Ocean
No, no, no. I never questioned myself. Because it was easier to be a working producer back then if you were good. I mean, it's a little tougher in today's age today, because you can be really, really good and not really be given opportunity. But back then, it was so hard to get in the studio first and foremost, because you had to know somebody. And if you had to know somebody, you were vetted pretty good about your. About your talent level. So it wasn't as hard to get heard. Yeah, but. So it wasn't. It wasn't a situation where I ever had to have doubt because I was constantly being validated by being able to be a working producer early on in my career, which I know is really challenging to have that attitude right now in 2018.
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Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
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Interviewer
It's kind of ironic that it's like people are so connected more than ever. But you're saying that it was easier back then. Is that just like a saturation thing? There's just so many people that can make music.
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Frank Ocean
Everyone. Everyone can do music. Yeah, everyone can do music, you know, so you're competing against everyone. It's not. You're not competing against 25 camps that have dedicated their life to the craft of making music.
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Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
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Frank Ocean
And when we came in, that's how it was. It was 25 camps and we fought it out. You. And you could win some, and you could lose some, but now there's billions of camps. You know, literally everyone's making music.
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Interviewer
You can start your own camp. You know, I guess before kind of the hits started coming, was there any kind of break that you felt like was, like, pretty pivotal, or was it this, what we're. What we're in now? Was it coming to Atlanta, starting your studio? Was that kind of when the break. When things started really happening?
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Frank Ocean
Well, there's. In a long career, there's a series of breaks. There's. The break of I have some place to work was huge.
- [14:02]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
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Frank Ocean
You know, and that's a break that affords me to be able to stay in this game to this day. So, like, that is a huge break. Right. But the break of having your first hit is a completely different break of having people want what you do, you know, so. And with that being said, you have to do that ever so often just to keep. Make sure that your phone keeps ringing. You know what I mean?
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Interviewer
Yeah.
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Frank Ocean
It's like you can't rest on what you did before or anything like that. So when there's lulls, you're always nervous because you're only as good as your last record.
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Tricky Stewart
Yeah. Yeah.
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Frank Ocean
So when there's lulls in your career and like, I had. I've had one, two, and then a third one. But once you know that you're going to work and you're doing the work and, you know, all it takes is one, you know, and. And you have all the information of how you got there the last time, it's. It's a much easier process.
- [15:03]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
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Interviewer
So what's the first one, jt Money. Was that the.
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Frank Ocean
Yeah, that was the first one that took the pressure off. Trying to get up in my.
- [15:22]
Interviewer
Take. The pressure off. What does that mean?
- [15:23]
Frank Ocean
And, like, I mean, it's just. I mean, there's validation. You know, this is a business that doesn't necessarily have any gatekeepers. So if I said I'm something tomorrow, then I am. You know, there's no one gonna come in and tell me that I'm not. So sometimes the validation comes from the awards, from the accolades, and I think that's maybe that's why we flash them so much.
- [15:44]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
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Frank Ocean
In ways. But getting your first number one says that you're legit.
- [15:49]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [15:49]
Frank Ocean
You know that it says you're legit. So whether it's an American Music Award, whether it's a BET Award, whether it's a Grammy, whatever that is, those moments of validation. Tell every teacher that thought you were kind of crazy because you couldn't really stay focused, that, no, I really was right about my playing.
- [16:06]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
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Interviewer
So for me, like, from the outside, it's one thing to have a hit, you know, 1999, but then, you know, when we get to 2007, 2008 into 2010, you had a series of hits. And I think it was more than hits, it was you. You defined an era of sound. There was a five year stretch there where you were just on fire, it seems like. So did that start with Rihanna?
- [16:34]
Frank Ocean
That actually started just with the collaboration of Dream and I getting in the studio. That was. That was the beginning of two crazy forces coming together at one time and just using a lot of energy and a lot of educated guesses of that I had with success and failure. And he, he doing the same thing and then us finding a melody that was going to make the world sing for five years or however long it was.
- [17:06]
Interviewer
So when does Dream enter?
- [17:09]
Frank Ocean
Well, Dream was in, and Dream was originally signed by my brother Laney, who was working here at the time. So I had a relationship with Dream, but it was more when Dream stopped kind of having his relationship here that he went and worked with Nivea on a project that they did and they shot some videos and kind of went at it renegade style. And I got to hear him unobstructed and kind of what he did on his own when he went in the studio. And I was really, really attracted to that sound and those records and the energy that I thought that they were bringing. And it just kind of led me to kind of going to him one day and going, hey, like this track right here, next time you go in the studio, just. I don't know what that thing is that you do, but just try doing it over some chords like this. And that's kind of how I felt it out for a while. And like, you know, just because I was kind of locked in mentally on what I was, what I was doing and he was around and he was really, really good and had a lot of energy. And then when we got in and one day he, myself and Coot Carell, my cousin, my other cousin, came to the studio. I don't know why, we just said, you know, we need some new vibes. Let's come up to the studio early, like for a couple days, just the three of us, we closed the studio, there was no one here, and we just wrote. And the first, I think the very first song that we wrote was Suffocate By J. Holiday I can't breathe when you touch me I suffocate when you're away from me so much love you take from me I'm going out of my mind I can't breathe when you talk to me which ended up being, you know, a really big record for us. I think it went to number two on the pop chart and did really well on Urban, but was really surprisingly strong on the pop chart. And then we wrote Umbrella. So we got here at like 7 in the morning to write and by 9:30 we had written those two songs already.
- [19:59]
Interviewer
That's crazy. Those are the first two out of the gate.
- [20:01]
Frank Ocean
Those were the first two. And from that point we just kind of looked at each other and was like. Because this was our first time ever, really, like getting in a room. And even though we kind of worked in this, the way the studio was set up, we kind of worked in this cross pollinating way where all the rooms were connecting at that time. And we just kind of looked at each other and was like, I don't know if we can let anybody come back in here for a while.
- [20:30]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:31]
Frank Ocean
So then we closed the studio again.
- [20:33]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [20:33]
Frank Ocean
And we just kept writing and we kept writing and kept writing. Making like classic records in 15 minutes, you know what I mean? So this is. This is a whole nother level of like creativity. Like that's just happening all at the same time.
- [20:48]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
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Interviewer
That's amazing.
- [20:50]
Frank Ocean
That was a great, great time.
- [20:51]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [20:53]
Interviewer
So when did you get into AR work? A and R work?
- [20:57]
Frank Ocean
I've always been the A and R. Yeah.
- [20:59]
Interviewer
Okay.
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Frank Ocean
I just let other people put their name on it. I mean. No, I mean, if you're the producer in a sense, I always feel like you are an A. R and A and R is just something that I've always. I looked at myself as being, you know, I've been since the very beginning. If I've ever had a deal, you know, if you look on the back, it's always executive produced by me, you know, which to me is really A and R. It's not really about the song, it's about the whole thing, you know, so, you know, I've always done it. And I was afforded the opportunity to go do it for real with LA over at Epic when he started Epic Records. And that was. That was a cool experience as well. So.
- [21:44]
Interviewer
Yeah. So did Def Jam, an R for Def Jam come before Epic?
- [21:49]
Frank Ocean
I was never an R for Death.
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Interviewer
Oh, you weren't? Okay.
- [21:51]
Frank Ocean
No, I was a consultant.
- [21:53]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [21:53]
Frank Ocean
And pretty much you could say I was an A R, because if I have the whole Mariah Carey album, I got the whole Frank Ocean album, I got the whole Dream album. It's like I had. And I'm. And I'm basically handling the biggest songs on, you know, Rihanna doing Justin Bieber, I'm handling your new stuff. You know, we're doing. I am the A and R. I just don't want to come to the meetings. You know what I'm saying?
- [22:19]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah, yeah.
- [22:21]
Interviewer
So when I was doing some research, I came across this interview in 2010 that I wanted to read you a little quote from. It was from the. The division of Georgia Tourism. It was like this really small website, but they asked you any up and coming artists you're working with that we should keep our eyes out for. And you said, quote, one of my favorite new talents is this guy, Lonnie Breaux. He's really great with a style somewhere between Maxwell Robin Thicke and Kanye West. He's this fresh, young, 21 year old hip hop poetry with an amazing singing voice. And he blends all these different styles seamlessly, which I thought was really interesting because this is pre nostalgia ultra. So I guess that's my segue into. When was the first time you heard the name Lonnie Bro?
- [23:15]
Frank Ocean
Don't get me to lying because I lived in a haze back then. But I know there's my brother Mark Stewart and Tab brought me Lonnie bro.
- [23:29]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [23:29]
Frank Ocean
And after that, like the only thing that I remember, I was doing Mariah Carey's album and I was doing a film with Christine Aguilera at the same time. They brought me Lonnie and I heard his music and I was just like, my God. Like, like I was like, this is something I've not heard before. And I believe that they brought him to me for a writing session. Like, you need to write with this guy.
- [24:06]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [24:07]
Frank Ocean
And I just, I met him, I was super busy and I was super like all over the place mentally. And I. The one thing that I could just get out, like in all the confusion was I want you to be my artist. I love what you do. The only thing is I just never want to hear anyone ever try to sing your songs. Yeah, and that was my thought process on that. When I heard him sing, I would. I felt like anytime, if you can imagine hearing a Marvin Gaye demo and letting and hearing another artist sing it, that's what I thought Frank Ocean demos would sound like forever.
- [24:45]
Interviewer
Do you remember the songs that were on the demo or they kind of never seen The Light of Day.
- [24:49]
Frank Ocean
I remember them. I remember them quite well. There. There are some amazing songs that we just haven't heard. I mean, some of them he gave away.
- [24:58]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [24:58]
Frank Ocean
You know, and they sound like trash compared to what they're supposed to sound like, you know, so.
- [25:05]
Interviewer
Yeah. So couple things on that. I guess this is the obvious question, but I'll ask it anyways. What about hearing him sing his own songs made you realize that you wanted just him to sing his own songs? And I guess the second part is like, how did not. How did everyone else not hear that? Because it seems like it'd be obvious to, like, someone like me or anyone that loves Frank Ocean. But at that time, why do you think that that didn't translate well?
- [25:35]
Frank Ocean
I think most people are in such a hustle to try to get something that's quick. And there's a lot of people that say a lot of words, but there's very few people who sing from their soul. And when you watch people that sing from their soul, they always win. And. But most people can't see that because they're always looking for what can help them next. At the point. At that point, I didn't need the next thing that was going to help me next. I, like, I had Mariah Carey, Christina Aguilera, any other thing. So I knew he was singing from a place of what I was watching them and I was. My radar was very high because I was just around it every day.
- [26:13]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [26:13]
Frank Ocean
You know, like, you have different periods in your life, but when you're around Mariah Carey, when you're around Lionel Richie, when you're around Whitney Houston, when you're around, like, you know, Celine, like, what the company that I was keeping at that time, like, from Katie to Frank to Dream to Yay to B to Reed, like, I'm just feeling an ultimate feeling of what it takes to win because I'm just around it all the time. So when somebody comes in, when somebody walks in with it, the same people know it. It's like when somebody. They don't even hesitate. The biggest artists in the world are the first ones to let you in when they know you got it. You know what I mean?
- [26:55]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [26:56]
Interviewer
That's why they're trying to capitalize.
- [26:57]
Frank Ocean
Yeah. That's why even. Even if you look it back, like, as soon as Nostalgia Ultra came out and Frank Ocean came out two days later, he took a picture in the studio with Beyonce. Nobody else takes pictures in the studio. Beyonce, but she knew what it meant.
- [27:11]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [27:12]
Frank Ocean
Because she's smart. She Knew what it meant for the association at the time. You know what I'm saying?
- [27:16]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [27:17]
Interviewer
No, that's great. I'm curious if you had any other songwriters that you heard them perform their own work and felt the same way?
- [27:25]
Frank Ocean
What's the question?
- [27:26]
Interviewer
Is there any other examples, like Frank, where you heard the songwriter perform his own music and then you're like, oh, why are you songwriting? Why aren't you. Is there any other artists that you've had that experience with?
- [27:37]
Frank Ocean
Yeah. Dream.
- [27:37]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [27:38]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [27:38]
Frank Ocean
I mean, it's. It's connected to the soul. Like, he's all fucking encompassing, confusing, beautiful and nasty all at the same time.
- [27:46]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [27:46]
Frank Ocean
You know, he's like, the dream is a great fucking roller coaster of a fucking time artist. Yeah. Like, he makes dope records. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, that's what I like. These guys make roller coasters, like, emotional roller coasters. And that's what I'm. That's like what I. With.
- [28:06]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [28:06]
Interviewer
Yeah, definitely. So I was reading that you're pretty close with. I guess we'll call him Lonnie. After signing. You signed him to Def Jam.
- [28:16]
Frank Ocean
Yeah.
- [28:17]
Interviewer
So what is that? Were you kind of showing him the ropes or, like, what does that mean? Were you just. Guys just hit it off as good friends or was there a little bit of mentorship going on, too?
- [28:27]
Frank Ocean
I don't know. I just knew that, you know, from my perspective. Right. I just vibe with people, and I've worked with a lot of people, but I don't vibe with everybody I work with. There was just something that about him that I vibed with, that I thought when I'm doing something cool, I want him to see it.
- [28:45]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [28:45]
Frank Ocean
I don't do that with everybody I work with, but if I'm doing something that I think somebody could appreciate, like, I'm like, let me show you this.
- [28:53]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [28:53]
Frank Ocean
Because this might. Like, I took him to the Shot A concert. He never seen Shot A before. Yeah, he, like, fucking bugged out.
- [28:59]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [29:00]
Frank Ocean
Like. Like, you know, I'm saying, like, for everybody else, it's like, I don't need to, you know, like, you know, I took him to see, like, dope designers, and I want him to show him my man Thomas shoes, like, art Studio, like, where he could just be like, oh, okay, this is. This is where it's at. You know what I'm saying? So it's like he's. I knew that he had the capacity for the art form in its fullest. You know what I'm saying? Most People just want to sing the songs.
- [29:29]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [29:30]
Interviewer
So you. Sounds like you just knew that right away, first time you heard him.
- [29:34]
Frank Ocean
I'm really attracted to people with intellect and his intellect through conversation. You know, the reason that. The reason that you talk. That we talk about him is just because it requires thought, just to even think what he's thinking.
- [29:46]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [29:47]
Frank Ocean
So.
- [29:47]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah. Yeah.
- [29:48]
Interviewer
Interesting. So Nostalgia Ultra, you produce Novocaine. Was that the first session that you had with him as a producer and artist?
- [30:00]
Frank Ocean
I think so, yeah.
- [30:02]
Interviewer
Is there anything that stood out from those sessions where you. That were different from others that you've had or.
- [30:10]
Frank Ocean
Yeah, I mean, our session was super meticulous. You know, Novocaine. I don't know how long we worked on it, but it was a long time. He was in this room right here. I was in the room across the way. He would write, I will produce. I would send it to him. He would write, I would produce, I would send it to him. He would write, I would produce. And we just kept challenging. That's why this song just keeps changing and evolving, because we were kind of doing it, like, in real time. And that was one of the few times that I got him down here in Atlanta. Me good Fuck me long Me numb Love me now When I'm gone Love me none Love me not Love me now.
- [31:09]
Interviewer
Looking back at Nostalgia Ultra, I'm kind of curious to see, like, you know, some good amount of time has been by since the release of that. Where do you see that? What does that. That project represent to you, to Frank Goshen's legacy?
- [31:25]
Frank Ocean
I mean, that project is a classic. That is. That is. If I have two classics, which I think I do, Maybe three. Maybe three. But those two projects, the way that they're put together, that Nostalgia Ultra, in Love Hate, I think it's a classic, and I think if it could have been. If it could have been released properly, I'm pretty sure that wins the Grammy for Album of the Year that year. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that happens. But it wasn't. Because with the obstacles we face with the label and the partner.
- [32:03]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [32:03]
Frank Ocean
And, you know, so that was. That was what that whole issue was. But if that record was a commercial release with proper clearance, I'm pretty sure you're looking at Album of the Year.
- [32:15]
Interviewer
Yeah, I believe it. What was the. In what. What do you remember about the industry's reaction to Nostalgia Ultra? Because he was relatively unknown at that time. I mean, they were giddy.
- [32:27]
Frank Ocean
Yeah, they were giddy. The whole industry was giddy. The calls that I was getting from the people that were calling. Every artist that I was working with. When I would come out from working on a session with Frank Ocean or if he was in the studio, would be sitting in the lounge. Every female artist, it was. It was crazy. People were just calling me up. I'm like, I. Are you working on the album? Hey. No, I just wanted to come by tonight.
- [32:52]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [32:54]
Interviewer
Just wanted to be around.
- [32:55]
Frank Ocean
Yeah. The things. His conversation in that first record struck a chord with a lot of different people from a lot of different walks of life. Like, it's one of the most lyrical albums on bodies of work of all time.
- [33:10]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [33:12]
Interviewer
And it probably, to a lot of people just felt like it came out of nowhere. I mean, he just released it on his Tumblr page, no press. And it just kind of had this organic impact that, I mean, really started his legacy. I'm curious, you know, his situation with Def Jam, obviously it's not a secret, was a little tumultuous. I'm curious, you know, Nostalgia Ultra was like. I feel like it forced a lot of people's hands. And I think that was probably calculated on his part and maybe partially just he was artist and he just wanted to get something out. But it really did force Def Jam's hand. From an outsider's view, I can't really imagine a lot of artists in his situation, you know, being signed and then being put on the shelf, essentially doing a similar thing. Do you think there's many artists that would have been able to do what he did and got him basically forced his. Forced his way out of a bad situation with art, essentially?
- [34:12]
Frank Ocean
I don't know. I mean, listen, the truth of the matter is no one really knows all the answers to this. We just know the result. And at the end of the day, Def Jam, I think, made a huge mistake. And that huge mistake, I think is great for Frank as an artist that he was able to. I think by the time of 29 years old, he owned his own masters. Yeah, he has a lot of great things going for him. But I think it's a huge mistake for Def Jam to let a talent like that walk out of the door. Because you don't have someone that can walk in the door and make him feel differently. And that's a problem. You know, at the end of the day, it's like, Def Jam, yeah, you made a mistake, but people make mistakes all the time. You can fix mistakes with money. They couldn't fix mistakes with the people.
- [35:16]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [35:17]
Frank Ocean
You know, and that was, you know, they. They had Some. Some regimes, it was. It was regime changes, too. So it wasn't. It wasn't even like. It wasn't even like he was dealing with how it started. Like, they weren't there no more. You know what I'm saying?
- [35:33]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [35:34]
Frank Ocean
Somebody should have been. Like, you had two regimes and nobody could, like, reach. Like, you got a superstar.
- [35:39]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [35:40]
Frank Ocean
And you. And you got Kanye West. Like, y' all don't know the cut. Y' all can't figure out the Frank Ocean language. And you got Kanye West. Come on.
- [35:48]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [35:49]
Frank Ocean
It's an easier language.
- [35:50]
Interviewer
So I read somewhere that you. You saw his situation with Def Jam as a changing of. A changing of the guard in the music industry. What did you mean by that?
- [36:00]
Frank Ocean
I mean, like, what you see now, they can barely get their hands on a star.
- [36:03]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [36:03]
Frank Ocean
The real one, you know, because everybody's doing 0 to 60. So once you decide to sign up for 6, 60 to 100, you know, the odds change. You're gonna pay. You're gonna pay for that.
- [36:16]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [36:16]
Frank Ocean
You know, and that's why they're writing big, huge checks out here, trying to close deals on things that they can't create themselves because the talent level is down.
- [36:27]
Interviewer
So I wanted to move on to Blonde and Endless, I guess, since we're on the topic. So you kind of alluded to that Frank was able to negotiate himself out of the contract with Def Jam with the release of Endless, and then he puts out Blonde independently. I'm just kind of curious of what your thoughts on that whole.
- [36:51]
Frank Ocean
I mean, at the end of the day, like. Like, I think it's a whole bunch of misplays going on. Like, it's a bunch of misplays. Def Jam is misplaying. Frank is smart and a dick, like, at the same time. So it's like, he's. He played them, you know, he really, really played them. And at the end of the day, like, we'll never really know what the full potential of it is. Because he was at the right label, they just couldn't do the right thing, you know? Like, he still needs major promotion like. Like, you know, for him to reach the potential that he has as an artist, which I think is unlimited and still not tapped into. I think he still needs that big fucking nasty machine when it works. Like. And, you know, Apple is Apple, but they can't do that. They can't make you Bruno Mars. They can't. You know what I'm saying? Like, and he's. He's that guy. You know what I mean? Like, he Deserves that.
- [37:55]
Interviewer
You think he wants that?
- [37:58]
Frank Ocean
I don't know. Yeah, he might be scared. He's scared.
- [38:02]
Interviewer
Did you have any early listens to Endless and Blonde or did you hear it when it came out?
- [38:09]
Frank Ocean
I heard a little bit of both. I heard a little bit of both. I had to think about that. Yeah. After Frank and I and everybody settled, like, interestingly enough, we never had really been talking through it all. So after the contract was finished, the next day he called me, like, yo, you want to work? So we go out there and we work on a couple of records, whatever. Nothing of note to really speak New York, or this is la.
- [38:40]
Interviewer
La.
- [38:41]
Frank Ocean
And no, he plays me Endless. And then he plays me, like, you know, all the artwork and, yeah, you know, all the ideas that he had going on with it and shit. And I was like, yeah, this shit's dope. You know what I mean?
- [38:53]
Interviewer
Like, yeah. As a producer, I guess I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the album's production. And especially going from Channel Orange to something like Blonde and Endless. What were your thoughts on the. The production?
- [39:06]
Frank Ocean
My thought on it really is, at the end of the day, I think Frank needs to let the producers produce in some of these cases, a lot of these records. I heard the roughs, and then I hear what Frank does, and it's like, it's super dope. But there's something like. I've heard some different versions of these records, and it's like some of the Is, like, gets convoluted because Frank is a classic overthinker, you know what I'm saying? So, like, sometimes less is more. And some of the time, some of the shit that comes out of his mouth is so, so dope. It doesn't even really need to be, like. Doesn't need to be done again. But he's, like, so meticulous. So, like, he's so meticulous. Like.
- [39:45]
Interviewer
Like, I heard there's 50 versions of white Ferrari.
- [39:48]
Frank Ocean
Yeah, that's crazy. I mean, he's notorious. Like, you know, in la, like, engineers get the Frank Ocean car. They're like, oh, my God. Like, they want it. But it's like, you know, you might record one line a thousand times.
- [40:03]
Interviewer
Okay, yeah, I've heard. I've heard some stories like that.
- [40:05]
Frank Ocean
Like, you're just like, bro, I don't feel like doing that. That number three was it.
- [40:13]
Interviewer
What do you think? That is just him searching for perfection.
- [40:20]
Frank Ocean
I think it's not knowing who's on the other end of the. Of the connection. I think that's where producing really. That's what producing is really brought, where. When you have that trust with that other person. And I don't know, maybe. Maybe it's just an overall insecurity of, like, taking the takes and things like that or, you know, I don't know.
- [40:43]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [40:44]
Interviewer
You have any favorite tracks on Blonde or Endless?
- [40:52]
Frank Ocean
No. Yeah, no, I like them both.
- [40:54]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [40:57]
Frank Ocean
My favorite record that he's done is the one with Calvin Harris.
- [41:00]
Interviewer
Oh, that's a great. Yeah, I love that one. Yeah.
- [41:04]
Frank Ocean
Yeah, like, that's the. That's the one that sticks out to me. Like, I think, you know, I'm. I'm. Call me crazy. I'm old school.
- [41:12]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [41:12]
Frank Ocean
I need the records, man. I need the records, man. I need the ones that play on the radio.
- [41:17]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [41:17]
Frank Ocean
You know, like, I know that sound. I know that sounds like old and all that, but I'm telling you, it's not the best records truly play on the radio. When. Yeah. Ain't on the radio, you don't have one.
- [41:29]
Interviewer
So I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about some of the stuff you're doing today. So I thought kind of going through your history and. And kind of studying that, it was interesting to me. There's kind of this through line of selflessness as a songwriter, as a producer, as an anr, you're kind of. A lot of your job is lifting up other people. And I saw that kind of continue on in what you're doing on social media with, you know, doing fan responses with the teacher Tuesdays and then now propping up producers with your playlists on Spotify.
- [42:07]
Frank Ocean
The architects.
- [42:07]
Interviewer
The architects, yeah. Was that kind of. That helping of others something that was just natural to you? That was always something that you. You were drawn to?
- [42:17]
Frank Ocean
I think there's a couple things a. Like I said, I'm really big into sports. I played sports my whole life. So I understand the concept of having a good game yourself individually, and losing because someone couldn't make the last play of the game. Right. And from that, those lessons that I learned is that it's just. It's not important to be. It's more important about the greater good, you know, than the. Than just me. So when I don't. When I do things, I don't think about me. I think about us. You know what I'm saying? And I'm in there and it's got a healthy portion, but at the same time, I don't want to walk in the door and, you know, not take everybody with me. That I think is Deserving.
- [43:05]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [43:06]
Frank Ocean
One of the craziest stories that anybody ever told me was that when they walk into a room, they only think about themselves. That shit was scary to me.
- [43:14]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [43:15]
Frank Ocean
So, like, I never want to be that guy.
- [43:17]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [43:19]
Interviewer
So, yeah. Let's talk about Tricky Stewart's presents, the Architects. Yes. Yeah.
- [43:24]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [43:24]
Interviewer
What's that? What's that about?
- [43:25]
Frank Ocean
Hey, listen, I. My brother told me we talk a lot about music, and, you know, we just started seeing all the documentaries and things come out, and he just kept saying to me, like, you know, if we don't tell our story, who's gonna tell it? You know? Like, you know, and who tells these stories if someone doesn't deem your story to be told? And I was like, man, so crazy. Because, you know, in all of our discographies, no matter what we do, no matter how many records and how many years or countless hours that we dedicate to this craft, someone is going to take the time to write you a bio that's going to simplify you into three songs. And I just became uncomfortable with that factor. And I was like, you know what? We always want to talk about who is not here and talk about how great they are after they're gone. But I was like, I want to talk about how great people are while they can hear it. So I started really just thinking about my influences and people who influenced me to make music, and I wanted to make playlists for them. This whole series has really started out as a reflection of my personal influences. It doesn't have an order. It doesn't have a pecking order to. I think this person is better than this. It just has to do with who has had influence on my career. And then once I get done with the influence of my career, I'm going to just go to the people that I think are amazing. So with that being said, you know, I'm getting close to the end of the people with my. With my influence, you know, I'm gonna do a feature on. I'm gonna. Like. I wanted to wait to really honor the Virginia sound with Timberland and Pharrell and Missy and. And Chad. And I wanted to save, like, a very, very special place for Jermaine Dupri, Dallas Austin, Organized Noise, and some of the hitmakers that have come from Atlanta, like the early hitmakers, where people were really, truly doing pop, R and B music, you know, like, things that were taking over the world. So after that, the list that I have compiled is, like, goes on and on and on and on, and then it's never gonna end because there's so many great producers that have dedicated their life to this craft, you know, And I'm eight weeks in getting amazing feedback from people. People are already checking in. Teddy's called me. Hit me up. Rodney Jergens has hit me. Raphael Siddiq. So Quincy actually reached out through. Through email. So it's like, they appreciate it. Yeah, yeah. Like, people like being honored, and it's something that, at the end of the day, you're looking for things that feel good for the spirit. People like to work out. I like to work out and give, like, sing other people's praises. So, yeah.
- [46:13]
Interviewer
Yeah, it's a great platform. I think it's a really great way to use today's, you know, Spotify platform and the accessibility of music in a really great and positive way and instantaneous. So, yeah, I think that's really cool. And I'll definitely toss some links in the dissect stuff to the architects.
- [46:33]
Frank Ocean
Thank you. That would be amazing.
- [46:35]
Interviewer
Yeah. And then I'm just curious what you're up to these days, just generally speaking.
- [46:41]
Frank Ocean
Well, listen here. I'll tell you exactly what I'm up to. I came back to Atlanta because Atlanta is right now. Obviously, we know that the trend. And everybody says Atlanta's in a run, but the truth of the matter is Atlanta has never changed since we came here in the early 90s. And it's a lot going on in this city, and there's not a record company in the city. And I'm like, well, if it doesn't get built by someone else, who's gonna build it? I realized that I was the age that. That I should build it.
- [47:12]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [47:13]
Frank Ocean
So I'm here working on an independent record company, content company. So I'm just putting a light on what is going on here at this address for a long, long time that has led to a lot of parties in the world, globally, dancing, drinking, having a good time to really dope black music. That's not dirty, that's not super, like. Like, not super trendy. But it's just. It's right there. It's what. It's what these producers that I'm honoring. It's what they're made of.
- [47:50]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [47:50]
Frank Ocean
Like, so I'm not really focusing right now on, like, what the labels did. I'm focusing on the. Focusing on the men that build them.
- [47:57]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [47:57]
Frank Ocean
You know what I'm saying? So in the. In the people that build these. These labels have to do with, like, that perspective that. That perspective of the things that you're dissecting, you know, like the words. Like, Jimmy Iovine told me that if you drop something important out of a fucking window, it's gonna happen.
- [48:19]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [48:20]
Frank Ocean
Like, if it's that good, it's gonna happen.
- [48:22]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [48:22]
Frank Ocean
You know what I'm saying?
- [48:23]
Interviewer
Ultra.
- [48:24]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [48:24]
Frank Ocean
Yeah. So. And that's. And that's what. What my experience has been, you know, I have no reason to doubt that when I've done my best work, this industry, the people around the world, the fans around the world, the artists around the world have rewarded me completely. But when I'm like, trying to talk myself into something that's not as good as I think, the results are the same, you know, like, you can't talk yourself out of greatness. You know that. You gotta feel that, man. It's gotta be. It's got to come from the soul. And that's what rap is really winning. When I was talking about that shit with Frank Ocean about it, the singing come from the soul. Well, this rap shit is coming from they soul.
- [49:07]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [49:08]
Frank Ocean
That's how they feel.
- [49:08]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [49:09]
Frank Ocean
Like it or not.
- [49:10]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [49:11]
Frank Ocean
That they're not prepared to separate with that feeling.
- [49:14]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [49:15]
Interviewer
People are attracted to that feeling too.
- [49:17]
Frank Ocean
Yeah. So when you can. When you can deliver that. I'm just not a hip hop guy like that.
- [49:21]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [49:22]
Frank Ocean
But trust me, I. I'm about to go back into my JT Money bag, because that's where I was back then when I was like, oh, I'm getting a little nervous because it had been a minute since I struck something, you know what I'm saying? And I was like, well, fuck it. And then I made those two rap records that and 4, 5, 6, and had two number ones in a row.
- [49:37]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah. Yeah.
- [49:39]
Interviewer
Cool, man. So I wanted to end today with that same question that you were asked in 2010. Any up and coming artists that we should keep our ears to?
- [49:52]
Frank Ocean
Well, now that you mentioned.
- [49:53]
Interviewer
No pressure.
- [49:54]
Frank Ocean
No, listen, the truth of the matter is, I'll be honest. I started this journey of wanting to build this independent record company and content company with just one artist in mind. And that artist was. Is the. Janine the Machine. And Janine the Machine is the artist that I have right now. Right now I have an EP out called High Places. It's. I think she's an amazing talent. I think you're gonna see some crazy, crazy shit from her. And she's an intellectual, like, badass woman. And it's amazing. And I wanted one artist and I ended up with three.
- [50:34]
Interviewer
All right.
- [50:35]
Frank Ocean
Because they were that good.
- [50:37]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [50:38]
Frank Ocean
And sometimes you Just can't. I don't want to be Def Jam. You know what I'm saying? I just don't want to be Def Jam. Like, what happened with Frank, that can't be me. Like, I can't have that be my story. So I just realized that I got to get up earlier and I got to go to sleep later, if at all. But I had to sign Saucy, though, which is formally known the Daniel, but he changed his name, got a new swag, got a whole new project coming out. He's dropping this record called Cabeza, which is like some Spanglish trap meets world I don't even know. But let's just say it's going to. We're going to challenge for a classic on the first one.
- [51:15]
Interviewer
All right?
- [51:16]
Frank Ocean
So I'm really looking forward to that. And then through this damn social media and being active, Mikayla came to me, this girl. I started following her on Instagram and just couldn't take my eyes off of her. And her voice just was just. It was just moving me through the Internet. And I just. You know, I called her and I said, listen, when your spring break comes up, because she's in college, She's a brainiac, too, you know? So I said, when your spring break comes up, you come see me. I called her mom. I said, you come see. Come see me. Let's. Let's get in the studio. We did four. We did five records, and I promise you, four of them are hits. Four of them are hits, and they dope as. And I just told him. I was like, I don't even want to touch these records again until I can get you back full time. I played it from one person. My boy Zeke. He went crazy for it. Zeke is all over the. And he's the only person that I played this for.
- [52:13]
Interviewer
All right, all right.
- [52:14]
Frank Ocean
So that's where we at.
- [52:15]
Interviewer
Cool, man. Last question. Where's the name Tricky come from?
- [52:18]
Frank Ocean
Hey, now, listen, we'll give you the. The version that is out there. We'll give you the version that's out there. I got the name Tricky from my mother, by the way, that I played football. I was really hard to tackle.
- [52:34]
Interviewer
Okay, I can see that.
- [52:36]
Frank Ocean
Yeah.
- [52:36]
Interviewer
All right, man.
- [52:37]
Frank Ocean
But that's not it.
- [52:39]
Cole Kushner
Can we get this?
- [52:40]
Interviewer
What's this? What's this? Exclusive scoop? No, not getting it. All right.
- [52:44]
Frank Ocean
It goes back too far.
- [52:45]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah, yeah.
- [52:46]
Interviewer
All good, man. Well, I appreciate it talking to you today.
- [52:48]
Frank Ocean
Absolutely great talking to you.
- [52:50]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [52:50]
Frank Ocean
Thank you for the opportunity.
- [52:51]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [52:52]
Interviewer
Appreciate it, man.
- [52:52]
Frank Ocean
Tricky Stewart presents the Architects Yeah, we'll drop it.
- [52:56]
Interviewer
See, man?
- [52:57]
Frank Ocean
Appreciate it. Absolutely. That was fun. I love talking about all this.
- [53:05]
Tricky Stewart
Yeah.
- [53:07]
Frank Ocean
Because it takes you back.
- [53:08]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [53:20]
Cole Kushner
I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Tricky Stewart. I'd like to thank Mr. Stewart for taking the time to talk to me and the entire Red Zone team in Atlanta for being so hospitable. Be sure to follow RickyStewart on Instagram and check out his Spotify Playlist series, Tricky Stewart Presents to Architects. You can find that by searching Tricky Stewart on Spotify. I'll also have links on my social media. Special thanks to PK and Michelle at Spotify for helping put this interview together. Okay, thanks, everyone.
- [53:47]
Interviewer
I'll talk to you next week.