'Call Me If You Get Lost' | LAST SONG STANDING (E5)

Summary

Dissect: ‘Call Me If You Get Lost’ | LAST SONG STANDING (E5)

Date: July 28, 2026
Host: Cole Cuchna
Co-Hosts: Charles Holmes, Justin

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Dissect: Last Song Standing, hosts Cole, Charles, and Justin undertake a deep exploration of Tyler, The Creator’s 2021 album Call Me If You Get Lost (CMIYGL), a record inspired by the famed Gangsta Grillz mixtape series. As the season progresses through Tyler’s entire discography, the goal is to debate and select his greatest song—the “Last Song Standing.” This episode unpacks CMIYGL’s musical themes, Tyler’s artistic growth, the context and legacy of Gangsta Grillz mixtapes, and undertakes a lively track-by-track breakdown including memorable moments, lyric analyses, and a fiercely competitive trivia segment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Tyler’s “Gangsta Grillz” Era and Personal Flexing

• Thematic Setup: Post-Igor Grammy win, Tyler channels classic mixtape energy by partnering with DJ Drama, rapping with renewed vigor, and delivering an album both full of boastful “idiosyncratic flexes” and deeper personal themes.

  • Cole: "It’s… about travel, yes, it’s about luxury, yes… but really the theme of the album is being yourself and flexing about the things that you specifically love and are passionate about." (09:26)
  • Tyler on the title: “When I say Call Me If You Get Lost, I don’t mean when you don’t know what to do. I mean when you call me, I want you to be telling [me] about the shit that you’re on… You out in the world getting lost, doing your own shit." (10:27)

• Album Structure: Tyler’s flexes are uniquely his—cars, travel, fashion—defining “luxury” as living out what brings you joy, contrasted with a nuanced narrative of heartache (the "love triangle" storyline running through songs like “Corso” and “Wilshire”).

Gangsta Grillz and Mixtape Cultural Context

• Era Recap: The hosts recall how Gangsta Grillz tapes fostered creativity and world-building in hip-hop, provided a platform during label disputes, and, for artists like Lil Wayne, were proving grounds for lyrical supremacy (13:44-18:00).

  • Charles: “When he was a teenager, records like Bastard are him doing his version of a Gangsta Grillz before he actually… had the reference points or even the cars or the jewelry to really be talking the shit.” (13:50)

• Tyler’s Homage vs. Subversion: Tyler leans into the era’s mixtape aesthetics—DJ Drama drops, braggadocio—yet refines it, using Drama’s voice narratively and anchoring his real-life experiences instead of simply adopting a persona (24:15).

• Mixtape Syllabus: Justin’s top Gangsta Grillz tapes include:

  • Trap or Die (Jeezy)
  • Down With the King (T.I.)
  • In My Mind: The Prequel (Pharrell)
  • Dream Chasers series (Meek Mill)
  • Definitive Pick: Dedication 2 (Lil Wayne) (18:39-21:38)

Album Sonics & Tyler’s Artistic Growth

• Varied Soundscape: The hosts draw parallels between CMIYGL and Cherry Bomb but highlight how Tyler now unifies disparate sounds with technical finesse thanks to his progression post-Flower Boy and Igor (22:08-24:52).

  • Cole: “It feels like a more refined and polished and unified version of Cherry Bomb… able to unify these sounds in a way he wasn’t able to [before].” (22:09)
  • Charles: “Even when he’s taking big swings in between songs, all of the elements fit together.” (23:31)

• Production Detail: Special attention is paid to Tyler’s sample choices and beat selection—how he both pays homage and innovates using classic breaks (notably on tracks like “Lumberjack”).

Standout Tracks & Nominations Debate

Nominated Tracks and Analysis

1. Wilshire

• Chosen by Charles
• A raw, 8-minute confessional addressing a love triangle, with Tyler recording in one take on a cheap mic.
  • Charles: “It’s such an honest record… this is a record you could only make in your 30s… It’s not a song that I like to return to a lot, but… each time I came back to it, I was like, oh shit, this is amazing.” (39:31)
  • Cole: “It takes a… very high level of skill to rap as effortlessly as this sounds, to tell this story, to rhyme, to tell a story that rhymes, but that doesn’t feel… heavy-handed.” (41:42)

2. Sir Baudelaire

• Chosen by Cole
• The opening track, a rare instance of Tyler rapping over an outside producer (Conductor Williams), sets the mixtape tone with braggadocio and elite lyricism.
  • Cole: “I just love the production. I love his rapping… it stays true to the concept. He’s just world-building on track one.” (49:54)
  • Standout line: “Keep it low, don’t want that shit to blow, like Osama’s shoe.” (52:06)

3. Lumberjack

• Chosen by both hosts
• The most explicit Gangsta Grillz homage, built on a Gravediggaz sample, blending cool, understated bars with hyped ad-libs from Jasper.
  • Charles: “He’s in complete control of his instrument as a rapper… he is not doing too much, he and the beat are in perfect synthesis.” (56:06)
  • Cole: “He does the opposite of what you think he’s going to do… he just raps super cool and understated, yet he has the genius to know I also need that hype element.” (60:23)

4. Lemonhead

• Chosen by Charles
• Chaotic, Cherry Bomb-esque beat; features 42 Dugg; Tyler brags, namechecks rap collectives, and the hosts appreciate the oddball theatricality and lyric switches.
  • Charles: “There are some rappers who are meant to be here for a long time, and there’s some rappers who are meant to be here for a good time… I think [42 Dugg] gets the best of Tyler on this song.” (74:07)
  • Fun lyric contrast: Tyler dismisses the Patek watch, while 42 Dugg celebrates his own.

5. Safari

• Chosen by Cole
• The overlooked closer with a rapid, MF DOOM-influenced flow and thematically wraps up the journey motif.
  • Cole: “He’s just fucking rapping his ass off… Closes the album off thematically very nicely… he can contrast that with the flow on the second verse, which is very much in the Doom universe.” (84:24–84:58)

Honorable Mentions:

• “Corso” – Sets up the album’s relational plot
• “Massa” – Deeply reflective, personal storytelling
• “Manifesto” – Domo Genesis feature, crowd favorite
• “What’s Your Name,” “Hot Wind Blows,” “Sweet/I Thought You Wanted to Dance” – Discussed as highlights but ultimately not chosen for nomination due to album flow or structure.

Standout Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Tyler’s Unique Bragging:
  • Cole: “[Tyler’s] flexes are what I’ve dubbed idiosyncratic flexes, because this album is full of Tyler bragging, but it’s him bragging about only things Tyler the Creator would brag about.” (09:54)
• On the mixtape-to-album evolution:
  • Charles: “Tyler is kind of the perfect bow on that, being like, I’m going to build a project and a bed to showcase DJ Drama in the best way possible.” (24:32)
• On hip-hop lineage and responsibility:
  • Charles: “Part of my power and part of my responsibility is to show y’all… these are the core tenets of it… And that’s why I love a song like Lumberjack…” (67:18–67:22)
• On fan engagement and song selection difficulty:
  • Cole: “It’s hard to pluck a single song from this album, especially the first half, because it all kind of flows together really nicely, all on mixtape. And some of the tracks just have like one verse..." (91:35)

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• AI/Authenticity/Album Context (02:31–04:10): Cole’s mix-up with an AI-generated Tyler track, and Tyler's good-natured response.
• Gangsta Grillz History & Mixtape Culture (12:56–21:38): Deep dive into mixtape culture, importance in rap, Tyler’s affinity for the era.
• Sample & Production Breakdown
  • “Sir Baudelaire” (53:27–54:53) – Billy Cobham/Atmosphere sample lineage.
  • “Lumberjack” (62:07–65:11) – Gravediggaz sample, drum break origins, connection to hip-hop tradition.
• Competitive Trivia Segment (28:35–37:03): Deep cuts on album influences, features, and trivia; Cole closes the gap in their ongoing quiz rivalry.
• Track Nomination Debate (38:01–88:47): Each host champions their three best CMIYGL cuts with detailed analysis.
• Final Royal Rumble Picks (88:50–93:39): Cole picks “Lumberjack”; Charles selects “Lemonhead” as tracks moving to the finale.
• Cultural Exchange Segment (95:46–end): Charles reviews Cormac McCarthy’s The Sunset Limited; Cole receives the anime classic Akira as his next assignment.

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Tone & Atmosphere

The episode crackles with friendly competition, hip-hop nerdiness, and reverence for Tyler’s artistry—as well as plenty of inside jokes and playful teasing. The hosts balance technical musical analysis, cultural history, and personal connection, making the macro (culture, lineage) and micro (lines, bars, samples) inextricably linked.

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Last Song Standing – Call Me If You Get Lost

Advancing Songs:

• Cole’s pick: “Lumberjack”
• Charles’s pick: “Lemonhead”

Other Nominations:

• “Sir Baudelaire” (Cole)
• “Safari” (Cole)
• “Wilshire” (Charles)

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Essential Quotes with Timestamps

• On CMIYGL’s theme:
  Cole (09:26) – “But really the theme of the album is being yourself and flexing about the things that you specifically love and are passionate about.”
• On Wilshire and honesty:
  Charles (39:31) – “It is a moment in Tyler’s career where all of that is pulled back… It’s not a song that I like to return to a lot, but… this is amazing.”
• On mixtape legacy:
  Charles (24:32) – “Tyler is kind of the perfect bow on that, being like, I’m going to build a project and a bed to showcase DJ Drama in the best way possible.”

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For Further Listening/Reading

• Call Me If You Get Lost by Tyler, The Creator (2021)
• Recommended Gangsta Grillz mixtapes (Dedication 2, Trap or Die, etc.)
• Gravediggaz – “2 Cups of Blood”
• Billy Cobham – “Siesta” / “Heather”
• Cormac McCarthy – The Sunset Limited
• Kanaeda & Otomo – Akira (film/anime)

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Next Episode Teasers

• The crew will revisit Tyler’s Chroma Copia album, with expectations of a shift in tone and style.
• “Cultural Exchange” continues: Cole will finally watch Akira; Charles and Justin discuss their anime journeys.

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Summary for New Listeners

This high-energy, intellectually rich episode offers a deep dive into Tyler, The Creator’s Call Me If You Get Lost, connecting the dots between personal narrative, rap tradition, and musical innovation. Whether you care about intricate samples, clever lyrics, or just picking the best banger, this episode delivers both critical insights and genuine fan enthusiasm.

Transcript

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

Foreign.

[Cole Kushna]

Welcome, everyone, to Last Song Standing. I'm Cole Kushna.

[Charles Holmes]

And I'm Charles Holmes.

[Justin]

And in this latest season, Cole and I are debating our way through Tyler the Creator's entire catalog in order to crown his greatest song of all time, aka the Last Long Standing.

[Cole Kushna]

Last episode, we debated 2019's Igor. And today we are diving into Tyler's Gangsta Grylls inspired mixtape, slash album 2021's Call Me if youf Get Lost.

[Justin]

What's your name, girlfriend?

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

What's your name?

[Charles Holmes]

What's your name, girlfriend? What's your name?

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

I don't understand Fish so fresh that you could taste the same yeah, we getting lost but we know who we came from Rolls pull up black boy hopped out Shout out to my mother and my father gave me pull out.

[Charles Holmes]

Can I pitch us on something?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Justin]

In honor of this episode, I feel like, you know, we should do a

[Charles Holmes]

little bit of DJ drama, you know, like, start the episode. That'd be like holiday season and then get to it.

[Cole Kushna]

Actually, you know what? Let's just drop random. Yeah. DJ drama drops throughout the episode, dog. Like, if you make a good point,

[Charles Holmes]

yo, it'll be like, let me do my best DJ drama impression. Like, I should interrupt us and be like, y' all don't even know what coast we on. We not in Mateo anymore. We coming live from Sycamore.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, we are recording this, the first remote episode. But it is fitting that, you know, we are calling each other for this episode. You're on. Well, you're in la, Justin's in New York, I'm in Sacramento, and a true bicoastal experience here. Justin, how you doing?

[Charles Holmes]

I'm good.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

I got my toes out. Just had a lovely non gendered person serve me some French vanilla ice cream. Okay, that's. Come on, guys. That's a reference to the drops on the album. Work with me. Don't just leave me out here like that.

[Cole Kushna]

Were there cookie crumbs in your Uber ride, is the question.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Never like that. If I'm out here on Spotify's dime, we're only getting the Uber black.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, so, Cole, really, really quick. We have a topper today.

[Justin]

We have to address some stuff, unfortunately. You got Sentelled.

[Cole Kushna]

I got what? Oh, Sentelled. I did. It's quite embarrassing to admit, but okay. So as these episodes have been coming out, we've been recording a few weeks in advance, so we're always a few weeks ahead. But at the time of this recording, Tyler himself saw one of our social media media edits where we're walking through his early work. I found one of his early beats. Then I played what I thought was an early Tyler song with rapping that turned out to be AI, which is embarrassing to say.

[Charles Holmes]

Tyler said the beat's real.

[Justin]

The rapping is not.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. So Tyler commented saying the rapping's AI, but the beat is real. So that means someone somewhat recently went back, found his original beat from 2000, whatever, when he was 14, 15 years old, and then did a fake Tyler the Creator rap over it with using AI, which is like. I mean, kind of threw me into an existential crisis that I got got and that and the fact that somebody would actually take the time to do that. But he cleared it up. It is AI. And then I apologized, following up to the comment, and then he said something very nice about the show. So no hard feelings, it seems like,

[Charles Holmes]

you know, shout out.

[Justin]

Shout out Tyler for taking it in stride. And, you know, as we. As we walk into this dystopian future,

[Charles Holmes]

it can happen to any of us. All right, so in happier news, though, we are what we are past the

[Justin]

halfway mark of the season. We are getting into the latter half of Tyler Tyler the Creator's career. Do we want to recap our song so far? Because I'm looking at my list call and it's washing your list if I'm being real.

[Cole Kushna]

If you like basic, straightforward, popular songs, maybe. But if you like artistic, well thought out, meaningful songs.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Right.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, Just read your fucking list.

[Cole Kushna]

I got Bastard, She Answer, Cherry Bomb, title track, Garden Shed and New Magic Wand.

[Justin]

And my superior list is French Yonkers, Bimmer Buffalo. Who that boy? Gone. Gone. Thank you.

[Charles Holmes]

And then, Justin, you.

[Justin]

You used up your only coaches challenge this this season.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

I only have one coach's challenge for the season. Right. Because okay, here's. People can't handle my takes. But Cole, before you say what you're gonna say, I wanna push back against what you just said about Charles list. I. You know, I think in the early seasons of last long standing, I always had Charles back. And then over the past couple years, I've really always had Cole's back. And, you know, I'm a biased referee. However, I think that this is not the usual Charles we're seeing. We're not seeing. I had to use my coach's challenge on Earthquake, which is one of Tyler's biggest songs.

[Justin]

Come on.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

It was important for Charles to not have that. It was important for him to have gone.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

Gone.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Thank you. And he's also doing things like picking Bimmer which is, I know is a fan favorite, but that is the fourth part, right? Fourth part of a multi suite song, correct? Like third.

[Cole Kushna]

Third part. Yeah, third part.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Charles is out here really, like, I think growing and expanding. I think we have to be. I think we have to give credit where it's due. This isn't the normal Charles.

[Justin]

You know, it's not going to say.

[Cole Kushna]

I'm just.

[Charles Holmes]

I will just say I've been with Tyler since the beginning.

[Justin]

You know, real heads know Bimmer's the one.

[Charles Holmes]

You know, it's like I'm trying to French. What would a greatest Tyler creator songs

[Justin]

be without a French, without a Yonkers?

[Charles Holmes]

I'm picking popular picks, but I am also going in my bag a little bit. You're a little bit newer to your

[Justin]

Tyler the creator fandom.

[Charles Holmes]

I was here when he was dissing fucking shake from 2 Dope Boys as Steve fucking Harvey.

[Justin]

Come on now.

[Cole Kushna]

I'm just saying. Gone, Gone. Thank you. Is doing a lot of work on your list. Because without it, it's so one dimensional. Is the only thing I'll say, though, I'll have to agree with Justin. We have seen a lot of growth from you musically and spiritually this season. So, Justin, here's what I wanted to propose. So we have the coaches challenge, but, you know, instant replay, as we're seeing in the World cup, as we're seeing in the NBA, is become such a, you know, critical part of being a referee. I'm going to offer this.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Okay.

[Cole Kushna]

Do we want to do some kind of video review? Quote unquote?

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Okay.

[Cole Kushna]

You can, you know, if there's a song that you're like, second guessing, should I have taken this? We can video review it and you can exchange your coach's challenge, but only if Charles and I also approve.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Okay. And when we exchanged the coaches challenge. So, I mean, I would give up the coaches challenge for this.

[Cole Kushna]

Say you wanted to exchange Earthquake for something off of.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

That's what I'm saying. So I would have to give up Earthquake.

[Cole Kushna]

I think so. Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

I like it.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

It's gonna be really tough. It's gonna be really tough because Earthquake, I think, needs to be in that final conversation. However, if something really strikes me. Sure.

[Cole Kushna]

Let's take a quick break and I'm really excited to get into this album with both of you. I'm so curious of your thoughts on this album, Charles. This episode is presented by Sierra Nevada. Life's about embracing the haze. What does that mean? Living in the moment. Seeing where the night takes you. Being up for the adventure. And there's no better way to embrace it than with Hazy Little Thing by Sierra Nevada. Hazy, citrusy smooth, juicy but not sweet. Hoppy but not bitter. America's best selling Hazy ipa for good reason. Hazy Little Thing. Enjoy responsibly. All right, we are Back to discuss 2021's Call Me if youf Get Lost. Charles, you're gonna hit him with the album Facts in a second, but I think it is important to acknowledge that Tyler creating this album was coming off of his first Grammy win in Igor. And I think that the momentum that he continually has since Flower Boy really. And just really ramping up and ascending as an artist and is like, you know, amassing a new kind of fan base along the way kind of sets the stage for this album in a big way. But do you want to hit us with some album facts?

[Justin]

Of course. Yeah, of course. I would love to. Call Me if youf Get Lost. Tyler the Creator 7 studio album released on June 25, 2021 as a spiritual part of DJ Drama's Gangster Grill series. The 16 song project features appearances from Lil Wayne, NBA, YoungBoy for two, Doug Pharrell, Lil Uzi Ver, among others. The album produced two singles, Lumberjack and what's Uni, and debuted on the number one on the Billboard 200, selling 169,000 copies in its first week. And the project won Tyler his second Grammy for Best Rap Album.

[Cole Kushna]

Interesting album conceptually, because obviously the headline is Gangster Grylls inspired mixtape. Tyler's rapping again, you know, coming off Igor, where he did very little rapping and was focused on melody and instrumentation. And now this kind of has a mixtape type feel. But of course it's a Tyler the Creator album. So it's not as simple and straightforward as. As just that. But I do think obviously the headline is the Gangster Grills inspired mixtape with DJ Drama being featured throughout the album. We're going to return to that, so let's put a pin in that. But I want to do kind of showcase a little bit more about the other things going on the album because it is an album full of boasts. But the boasts are what I've dubbed idiosyncratic flexes because this album is full of Tyler bragging, but it's him bragging about only things Tyler the Creator would brag about. And I bring that up to say because I think it's a kind of a critical part of this album's theme, which is yes, it's about travel, yes, it's about luxury, yes, it is about kind of him flexing about where he's come from and how far he's gone. But really the theme of the album is being yourself and flexing about the things that you specifically love and are passionate about. This idea of call me if you get lost was kind of misunderstood by the public and Tyler had to kind of clear it up. Because obviously, if you're just thinking about the title call me if you get lost, you think of Lost, literally, and reaching out to someone like Tyler for help or for direction. But he said this about the title. He said, quote, when I say call me if you get lost, I don't mean when you don't know what to do. I mean when you call me, I want you to be telling about the shit that you're on, the shit that you're doing. You out in the world getting lost, doing your own shit. So he's kind of redefining this idea of being lost as being lost in your own world, being free as a person, being exactly who you are and doing what you want to do. And that's how he defines luxury on the album. On the intro of Massa, he says, whatever your shit is, man, do it. Whatever bring you that immense joy, do that. That's your luxury. So when we hear Tyler bragging about his cars, his travel and all these things, that's what he loves. That's what he's truly passionate about. But that doesn't mean that's what we're all passionate about. And the idea of the album is to find those things that you are passionate about and embody that and live that. There's also, like, a secondary plot line to this whole album, which is this love triangle, which is kind of established on Corso, but there's this love triangle where he has feelings for this girl who is then in a relationship with one of Tyler's friends. And there's this real tension that gets explored throughout the album and really comes to head in a song like Wilshire, which we'll talk about later. So all that to say, it is a very straightforward album, but there is complexity to it, there's dynamics to it, there's layers to it, the concept. But I think, again, the headline is the Gangster Grylls concept. And as. As fans of mixtape, both you and Justin, I want to give the floor to you to kind of outline one, give us a little history of the. The Gangster Grylls for those that aren't familiar. But also, if you think this works as. That, as a Gangster Grylls type concept,

[Justin]

I Mean, I'll just say this because Tyler and I are the same age. To me, we grew up on the same era of mixtapes. I remember the feeling of listening to Wayne's dedication and

[Charles Holmes]

really, like, that was

[Justin]

when my world opened up to not only the possibilities of rap, but regional rap. What DJs meant, what mixtape culture meant. You were seeing everything that the clips was doing with We Got it for Cheap. Pharrell with Pharrell, with the prequel to In My Mind, Trap or Die, TI G Unit. And what I think is so fascinating is that to me, call me if you get lost.

[Charles Holmes]

Is not Tyler searching for something.

[Justin]

It's actually him going home.

[Charles Holmes]

To me. When he was a teenager, records like Bastard are. Him doing his version of a Gangsta Grylls before he actually. And he talked about it with DJ

[Justin]

Drama in an interview.

[Charles Holmes]

Like, why didn't you come to me before to do a Gangsta Grylls? And Tyler made a very good point. I was 16, 17, 18. I did not have the reference points or even the cars or the jewelry to really be talking the shit. That tip was when he was crowning himself the King of the South, Wayne, when he was calling himself the best rapper alive. And to me, on this record, which I think is my second favorite Tyler

[Justin]

record and his best rapping throughout his

[Charles Holmes]

career, this is the moment where Tyler could say, I'm the best rapper alive. Whether I would believe that or not, he's rapping his ass off in a way where I'm like, hey, yo, you

[Justin]

can make a point

[Charles Holmes]

on re. Listen, this has jumped. This album has jumped in my esteem. And it's not lost on me that I'm like, this is a perfected version of Bastard in a lot of ways.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

I think it's worth noting, too, you shouted out a lot of those mixtapes. The early 2000s, mid 2000s mixtape era, that kind of started as a product of necessity, right? G Unit, Dipset, these guys were running into label problems. You know, 50 Cent, he lost his deal. His debut record never officially came out. He had to go to making mixtapes to literally get music out. Then everyone saw what happened with that Diplomats. Same thing, Dipset. The same thing happens, right? Cameron falling out with the label builds up hype. 50 cent becomes the biggest thing in the world. Cameron signs with Rockefeller. A couple years later, you have clips with We Got it for Cheap. They were having so many label issues. And when you talk about, like, the Jeezy and the TI I think in especially Wayne, right? These guys were not guys having ti And Wayne Jeezy was on the come up. These guys were not having label issues, but I think that they had seen what the artists that came before them had been able to build through mixtapes. Right? And we're talking just like rapping over other people's beats, just like being able to get some ideas off. These were often like playboxes, sandboxes, to get creative ideas out that might not have worked on a record, like an official studio album. They also use this to build buzz. And when we talk about Wayne's career and why Wayne is one of the greatest rappers ever. Yeah, Carter 2 is great. And Carter 3 is one of the biggest rap albums that's ever been made. And Carter one's great. Wayne's put out great commercially available music. But the case for Wayne as the greatest rapper alive is on these, like, free. Like, I can get off all these ideas. I can put out, like three of these a year without label interference or worrying about singles or budgets or anything like that on these types of projects. So Tyler's not doing that with this.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

Right?

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Like, Tyler's paying homage to this. And it's more of an aesthetic choice than it is anything of what some of these earlier artists did. And I personally think it works really well as homage and as a project.

[Justin]

But I also will say it's funny how I think Tyler. Cause he admits it, did those first off future mixtapes does something like bastard out of necessity as well. No one was checking for odd future. And these kids who are hardcore adjacent fucking rapping about, like, raping this fucking cartoon character and fucking eggin houses or whatever.

[Charles Holmes]

So he takes power in his own

[Justin]

hands in the same way that 50 or Dipset does and is like, okay,

[Charles Holmes]

I'm gonna build my own world. I think the greatest mixtapes build. Build worlds. It pitches you on somebody before maybe

[Justin]

they're fully fleshed out.

[Charles Holmes]

And that's why I think this record is so interesting, because it is Tyler almost putting on the suit of his heroes of being like a Wayne, being like a Gucci and being like, okay, I'm going to bring you into my world, but it's gonna be a heightened level of. I can argue that I'm one of

[Justin]

the biggest rappers now.

[Charles Holmes]

And that doesn't happen without Igor.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, Justin, before we move on from. From this conversation, I did ask you to put together. How many did you. How did you put. Did you do five? Like a syllabus of the best gangster girls mixtapes for anyone not familiar that wants to familiarize themselves with it.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Charles, I'D be curious if you have any thoughts. Cause I'm sure you can say some. You can do some of these off the top of your head. I struggle with getting it 2.5, so I'm gonna do like a 5.5 and then shout out a few honorable mentions. First. I think a record that Charles and I have a lot of love for, which is a Gangster Girls record, is Late Nights with Jeremiah. We've discussed that on cultural exchanges in the past. We're not going to revisit that. But it's like, really one of the great R and B projects of the 21st century. And that's a Gangster Grylls mixtape. Trap or Die. The Jeezy tape is like, really kind of the start of Gangster Grylls becoming a huge thing. I kind of. I'm just grouping them together. That and down with the King, the TI Because I prefer that project a little more, just because I prefer TI in that era. But what's interesting about TI And Jeezy in that era, like, they're really, like, vying to become the hottest rappers in the world. And starting with these mixtapes, I'll just say.

[Cole Kushna]

Also, Tyler specifically shouts out Jeezy's mixtape a ton during this era.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

I really think that the older I get, the more I think that Pharrell, in my mind, the prequel might legitimately be one of the best Gangster Girls mixtapes.

[Justin]

I don't know if I really is it.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

I think Charles, it's. Go back and listen to this.

[Charles Holmes]

I like it, but this is.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

It's. I don't know if it's top five, but it's top ten. I'm. I promise you, I spent a lot of time this weekend going over them. The Dream Chaser series. I know it's not. Shouting out meek mill in 2026 is never a way we're not gonna sleep

[Justin]

on the Dream Chaser series. Like, Meek is rapping his ass off on that. I love the Dream Chaser series.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

And just a couple. A couple of personal favorites that I want to shout out. Rich Homie Kwanz. I promise I will. I will never stop going in.

[Charles Holmes]

Love it. Classic little brother.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Separate but equal. Okay, but the defining Gangster Grylls mixtape is Lil Wayne's dedication to how they

[Charles Holmes]

do Motherfuckers is wheezy baby niggas bitching in the cannons.

[Justin]

Dedication to is perfect in every single way, shape, or form.

[Charles Holmes]

I would not be doing what I'm

[Justin]

doing today without, like, dedication. It is some of the greatest rapping of all time.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Like that Run with Dedication 2 into Drought 3 is just like, you know, this is around the time when he's ramping up to do the Carter 3 and become legitimately not just the best, best rapper alive, but the biggest rapper alive. And the foundation for that is laid, like, really in this 2006, 2007 run. But this is one of, if not the crowning jewels of that run and the Gangsta Grylls series.

[Justin]

I will say that's why Carter3 was always a disappointment to me, because his rapping is so fire on the mixtapes

[Charles Holmes]

that he really struggles to rap as well on the album, Even if the songs on the Carter 3 are actually songs versus just sketches. But I like Dwayne's sketches a lot more. And shout out 2 Chainz True Religion.

[Justin]

Like, that is true.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

That was one that I could sit here and list them all day, but that was another one that was on my list.

[Justin]

Hell, yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

Beautiful job. Thank you, Justin. You know what? I was really surprised just getting it back to call me if you get lost. This album reminded me a lot of Cherry Bomb. For some reason, on this re listen, after spending so much time with Cherry Bomb, it feels like a more refined and polished and unified version of Cherry Bomb. Because if you isolate some of these songs back to back, like, the sound worlds are totally different. You know, obviously the biggest example would be, like, a Sweet Thought yout Could Dance contrast with something like a Corso or Lemonhead. Baby, you're the sweetest Catch me in

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

my other other other other crib that's my AKA Hurricane.

[Cole Kushna]

Like, these are like polar opposites, sonically. But I think by this time in Tyler's career, after going through the Flower Boy Igor stages, is able to unify these sounds in a way that he just wasn't able to on Cherry Bomb.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

I don't know.

[Cole Kushna]

Am I alone in this? I was just really surprised about the very. How varied the sound was. I think in my mind I had Call Me if youf Get Lost, like, depicted differently. And on this re. Listen, I was just really caught off guard with how, you know, how varied the sound was.

[Charles Holmes]

Oh, no, I, like. I don't think that. I think that's a great observation.

[Justin]

I also think just on a granular level, if you listen to, like, a song like Lemonhead, it's the production. There's a lot going on in this

[Charles Holmes]

similar way to Cherry Bomb, but it's way more refined, where he's become such a better producer that even when he's

[Justin]

taking big swings in between songs, all

[Charles Holmes]

of the elements Fit together. And it was funny doing research for this, how he almost does the Gangsta

[Justin]

Grylls in the opposite way that most Gangsta Grylls are done in two very

[Charles Holmes]

important ways is traditionally, in the beginning, these were mixtapes. It is either people rapping over each other's beats or DJ Drama bringing together

[Justin]

a bunch of disparate songs.

[Charles Holmes]

And then secondly, people aren't thinking about how they're weaving DJ Drama into a Gangsta Grylls. Whereas Tyler is like, I made the album. And I was thinking from the beginning,

[Justin]

okay, I want DJ Drama here. This is where he's gonna slot in here.

[Charles Holmes]

Which also teaches you kind of the evolution of. Of gangsta girls as a concept, where by the end of the Gangsta Grylls era, they're becoming more like albums. And Tyler is kind of the perfect bow on that, being like, I'm going to build a project and a bed to showcase DJ Drama in the best way possible.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Do you guys think that the younger generations possibly listening to this show understand how influential these things were? Like, there was a massive raid on DJ Drama's studio and where they were housing all these mixtapes back in 2007. Right? Like, the FBI, I believe, got involved and he was. He got charged with RICO charges. Like what they do for mobsters.

[Justin]

I literally remember that happening so vividly. To answer your question, I don't. And I think that's okay because I will say this.

[Charles Holmes]

The mixtape era.

[Justin]

And I think the reason that people talk about the mixtape era and the blog era with such reverence is that it is the last time in recorded history where music discovery was something that was.

[Charles Holmes]

Was a little bit more difficult. Where it was like, oh, if you wanted this shit, you're going on limewire. You're fucking ruining your parents computer. It is like, oh, I saw. I read about this on a blog that I trust. I'm downloading it. Oh, I'm gonna give it to a friend. Where it's like, soon after this, with the rise of streaming services, with Spotify, with Apple Music, there's a reason mixtape culture died. Mixtape culture became playlist culture. And to me, you get an artist

[Justin]

like Tyler the creator through that discovery,

[Charles Holmes]

through him being a kid, being like, even. Cause he even talks about it. He's like, I was living in la.

[Justin]

We did not have the type of mixtape culture that was happening with Dipset and G Unit or even in the South.

[Charles Holmes]

And when you listen to Tyler the creator, it's not until very recently where it's like, no, Tyler is a West coast artist. Even when he was coming out. I don't know if people really gave him that because he was so. He had taken so much. His biggest record was Yonkers. So to me, Tyler the creator and how he became Tyler the creator is because of mixtapes.

[Cole Kushna]

Well, it's also him saying at this point in career, like pointing back to the cause. He knows his fan base and he's talked about this in interviews. He liked the idea of kind of almost forcing his fans to go back to this era. And it's him subtly saying, I am of a lineage. And I know that lineage is maybe lost on some of my fan base, but it feels like this was an effort and not so heavy handedly, but was an effort to point back to these things that are, you know, especially in interviews, you could hear how passionate he is about this era, about these mixtapes, and how much they shaped him as an artist and influenced him even to the point we'll talk about later. He's shouting out a lot of the collectives during those early 2000 era and how that fueled something like an odd future. So he's putting himself in a tradition and pointing back deliberately for his fan base. But Justin, I know you're a big fan of this album. How did it feel returning to it?

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Charles, you said this was currently your second favorite Tyler album.

[Justin]

Yeah, easily. I think it's his best rapping by far.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

I agree. It's his best rapping by far. And I think a point about the rapping too. And I'm sorry if I'm stepping on something someone's gonna say is it comes after. It's interested me that this comes after Igor, when he won best rap album for Igor and was very vocal about how he was disappointed at the fact that he even had to be nominated for rap album for something that was more of an, you know, alternative that

[Cole Kushna]

had like two traditional rap verses in the entire album.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Yeah, I don't even want to call it an R and B album. It's just kind of like, you know, it's just music. Yeah, but man, he's really rapping his ass off here.

[Cole Kushna]

All right, we ready for album trivia. The title track. The title of the Call me if you get. Wait, what is it?

[Charles Holmes]

I always forget Quiz me if you get lost Trivia.

[Cole Kushna]

Are we ready?

[Charles Holmes]

Oh, we are ready. So what's the score? I feel like I'm in the lead.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, you are up by two. So, Charles, you have seven total correct answers. I have five. So I got some work to do. I Think I'm going to catch up this episode. I got some.

[Charles Holmes]

Oh, Charles.

[Cole Kushna]

Tough ones.

[Charles Holmes]

I have some softballs. I have some ones that I was just like, all right, we're in the home stretch.

[Justin]

I'm getting competitive. Who wants to go first?

[Cole Kushna]

You go first.

[Justin]

All right. Gangsta Grylls isn't the only inspiration for Call Me if youf Get Lost.

[Charles Holmes]

In an interview with DJ Drama, he

[Justin]

reveals Q Tip's 1990 album Amplified was also very, very influential. Tyler specifically calls out single let's Ride and the car Q Tip drives in the music video. What car does Q Tip drive?

[Charles Holmes]

No. What.

[Cole Kushna]

What car?

[Charles Holmes]

All right, well, here's the thing.

[Cole Kushna]

Real question.

[Charles Holmes]

I wouldn't even.

[Cole Kushna]

So this is funny because this was one of my questions for you, but it wasn't what car it was gonna be what it was gonna be. The answer was Q Tip. So I was gonna say, along with the gangster Grylls, who was the other inspiration point. That's how. That's a fair question asking what car is in a music video. I don't know the answer, Charles.

[Charles Holmes]

All right. Do you know the nickname of the car, though?

[Justin]

I don't know about.

[Cole Kushna]

I don't. If I heard it, I must have heard it in the interview. But my brain doesn't register. I'm not a car guy, so I'm

[Charles Holmes]

just not the Lamborghini LM002, aka the Lambo Rambo. Come on. I'm digging deep.

[Cole Kushna]

Sure.

[Charles Holmes]

I'm digging deep. I knew you would have known the Q Tip, but I had to go deeper. This is an album about your whip, your jewelry, your fashion. Come on. You should have known where I was going.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, sure, sure. Okay, fine. All right, then I'm just going straight for the hard ones then. Okay, what TV show inspired the reggae influence track Sweet.

[Charles Holmes]

Wait, what TV show inspired which track?

[Cole Kushna]

Sweet? Part one of Sweet. I thought you wanted to dance.

[Justin]

Fuck, I definitely don't know this one.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, so in a performance, you performed the album for an Amazon thing. And he said that he was watching Steve McQueen's Small Acts, which was like an episodic multi part film series thing. And episode two of it was called Lovers Rock, Lovers Rock being a subgenre of reggae. And he heard the song, which I'll talk about probably later in nominations, but heard this lovers rock reggae song, got up from bed at like 10 at night, looped it. Looped the part that he liked, and he was up till 4 in the morning riding sweet over this song that he heard on this Steve McQueen film. Pretty good, right?

[Charles Holmes]

It was a good question.

[Justin]

But I see we're being assholes on this recording.

[Cole Kushna]

I actually think that's fair.

[Justin]

Jeez.

[Cole Kushna]

It's not a car. It's about an actual song on the album.

[Justin]

All right, I'll split this up into two. So you get a half point for each. What rapper that. I need the rapper's name and then I need the song. Did Tyler, the creator, said, was the core of rap music and was one of the reasons why he wanted to obviously get him on the project.

[Charles Holmes]

Rapper.

[Justin]

And what song came out that inspired this rapper to get Call me if you get lost.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, okay, I get the question now. So it's a feature artist.

[Charles Holmes]

It's a featured artist.

[Cole Kushna]

And he was on.

[Charles Holmes]

On Call me if you get lost.

[Cole Kushna]

I'm pretty sure it's 42 Doug. Right?

[Charles Holmes]

42 Doug. Yup.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

And what was the 42 Doug song?

[Cole Kushna]

I don't know this. I don't know this. I don't know this song.

[Charles Holmes]

You 42 Doug. Lil baby we paid.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Oh, yeah. I had memory hold a lot of 42 Doug. I'm going to say that the most. Probably the most dated thing on this record for me was the presence of 42 Doug, who I hadn't really thought about in a few years.

[Justin]

All right, all right.

[Charles Holmes]

We are not. We are not fucking disrespectful for two Doug. That.

[Justin]

That motherfucker spitting on his track.

[Charles Holmes]

We paid. If you have not re listened to We Paid. I was like, hey, yo, let me put on We Paid again. I was like, not only do I understand why Tyler loves this song, we should pop the video on screen. Because it's just Lil Baby A four two Doug rapping in their and doing fucking donuts. And I'm like, of course Tyler would love this, but it's a perfect song. All right, you get a half point.

[Cole Kushna]

All right, I'll take a half point. Okay. So let me go. Oh, here's another one. Justin, you'll like this one. The song Dogtooth on Call Me if youf Got Lost Deluxe was inspired by what art house film director.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

I know the answer.

[Cole Kushna]

You can't phone a friend either, Charles.

[Charles Holmes]

I have no idea.

[Justin]

God damn, dog.

[Cole Kushna]

I'll give you this hint. It's a title of one of his films.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Okay? It's not Star Wars. How's that for a hint?

[Charles Holmes]

All right, I give up. What is it?

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

It's your boy Yorgos.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. 2009 film Dogtooth.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

You never seen Dogtooth?

[Charles Holmes]

No, I've seen some Yorgos films. All Right. What we're not doing is me being like, you guys haven't seen Star Wars? And you're like, yo, you haven't seen Dogtooth. All right, kill me.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

All right.

[Justin]

Damn.

[Charles Holmes]

I need to get one on the board.

[Justin]

Damn.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, I had two questions here.

[Justin]

They're both pretty easy. All right, I feel like you're gonna get this one.

[Charles Holmes]

Who was the first artist ever that

[Justin]

called DJ Drama to do a freestyle?

[Charles Holmes]

This connects because this ends up inspiring what would go on to be called what would become Gangsta Girls.

[Cole Kushna]

Was it TI? Cause he was TI's DJ, right?

[Charles Holmes]

Yep, it was TI. I think it was TI's either his DJ or his manager hit up DJ drama being like, I have this new artist Tip. Like, his name was Tip at that point. Hey, yo, I want to get y' all together. DJ Drama was just like, dog, this motherfucker came in. He was freestyling. He was rapping about him being the king of the South. It's like, a couple years later, like, he was the king of the South. It's also. It's crazy for a DJ if you have to think about, like, you know, how many, like, artists like, you, like, hear record come in who are just like, yo, I'm the king of this. I'm the king of the South. And for, like, for it to actually pan out is the thing that I was like, oh, that's special.

[Cole Kushna]

All right, that means. Okay, I got one more question for you. But that means I'm 0.5 from tying. I'm feeling good. Okay. Because I told you, if I lose, I might have to dress up as Igor for the finale episode.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

Oh, boy.

[Charles Holmes]

And I am not dressing up. I will do something else.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, this is kind of easy. Throughout the album, along with Tyler Baudelaire, Tyler refers to himself as Bunny Hop, who gave him the nickname Bunny Hop?

[Charles Holmes]

How is this easy?

[Cole Kushna]

He says it on the album.

[Justin]

His mother.

[Cole Kushna]

No, it's not close, but I'll even rap or I'll even recite the lyrics up until the point where he reveals it.

[Charles Holmes]

Okay.

[Cole Kushna]

He says Mama named him Tyler, and his brother called him T. At the bank, they call him that Wire Clear. Like season three or something. Blank. Call me Bunny Hop. But it's B or Wolfie, though.

[Justin]

Damn. I don't know.

[Charles Holmes]

Christian Clancy?

[Cole Kushna]

No. Pharrell.

[Charles Holmes]

Damn.

[Justin]

I was gonna say Pharrell. Shit.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

Shit.

[Charles Holmes]

Damn. You got 1.5. Shit.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, so grand total is now 6.5 versus 7 neck and neck going into the final two episodes. I like it. You're Shaking your head in disappointment.

[Justin]

I'm so upset.

[Charles Holmes]

But, dog, with all that out of the way, should we finally get to some nominations?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

All right.

[Cole Kushna]

All right. So remember, the goal of each episode of Last Song Standing is for Charles and I to determine the single best Tyler the Creator song ever made. The songs that we select over the course of the season will then duke it out in a season finale Royal Rumble, where we'll be forced to agree on the last song standing, the single best song by Tyler the Creator. Right now, we are each nominating three songs off of Call Me if youf Get Lost. We think should be in contention. Charles, I'm gonna give you first pick because I'm really curious about where you're going on this album. I know where you're not going. I'm pretty almost certain I know where you're not going with this album, but where are you going for number one?

[Justin]

Okay, so actually, I'm gonna do a curveball. I was gonna talk about this one last, but let's talk about it first.

[Charles Holmes]

I can't tell if I don't love

[Justin]

this song, but I think it is an important song. I think it's a great song. Wilshire, we subtly press his buttons.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

Not on purpose, but, man, I found my purpose. If I fucked our friendship up for you, I think it's worth it. But nah, I can't do that. That nigga don't deserve it now. Plus, y' all got depth. I'm just a n on the surface. For real.

[Charles Holmes]

It is upon relisten.

[Justin]

It is a. The reason I wanted to pick it is because

[Charles Holmes]

for Tyler, when he started

[Justin]

Flower Boy, I feel like he needed a lot of symbolism and industry. Garden metaphors, flowers to get his point across about desire and sexuality and relationships. And I think on Igor, he's expressing a lot of the same feelings and love, but there's a lot of production and obfuscation. And I feel like on Wilshire, it's a moment in Tyler's career where all of that is pulled back. He's talked about how he wrote this. Not wrote this, but he recorded this in one take on a shitty $100 microphone. You can feel that texture in his voice.

[Charles Holmes]

It's such an honest record.

[Justin]

And it's like, oh, this is a record you could only make in your 30s. This is a record that you could only make when you've opened yourself up this much. It's not a song that I like to return to a lot, but, yeah, after an album full of, like, Boasting and bragging.

[Charles Holmes]

Each time I came back to it,

[Justin]

I was like, oh, shit, this is. This is amazing. And I want. I'm not gonna pull out too many of the lyrics, but the one that always gets me is. I'll skip the details, but that night I seen hell he was in a room I was paying for I took three Ls. No, I didn't sleep well Woke up and my knees fell they bucked to the ground I cannot walk Shit, I

[Charles Holmes]

need Veil for a song that is about dirty mackin. What do you, like, think about it? Where I'm like, all right, come on, nigga, that's not your girl. It's just so.

[Justin]

Is so visceral, and it's earnest in a way that Tyler is rarely that earnest. Yeah. I wanted to shout out Wilshire because. Yeah, it just.

[Charles Holmes]

And I think it speaks to the power of hip hop, where it's like,

[Justin]

on Flower Boy, a lot of what he is saying is coming through melody. Other artists are helping him say this. No one can help Tyler through this experience. It's only him. It's only his voice. A very simple beat. And I wanted to, very early on, kind of talk about Wilshire and just kind of honor it.

[Charles Holmes]

Is this a bad pick in your mind, Cole?

[Cole Kushna]

No, it was on my short list. It was one I definitely considered. I'm glad you picked it because I do think, yeah. On an album full of Tyler, obviously, the priority was rapping on this album. And I think when we think of rap a lot of times, especially, like in quote unquote, impressive rap, it's like we want to hear the punches, we want to hear the entendres, stuff like that, the double rhyme schemes, like that kind of stuff. But this flexes a different lyrical muscle that I think is as. Just as valuable and as important because to your point, like, you can only write a song this almost, like, organically or story this organically through rap when your pen is at a certain level.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

So even though you can't isolate a particular line and say, okay, check out, you know, let me nerd out on this. Here's the entendre. Here's the triple rhyme scheme. It's not that type of song, but I think lyrically it is at every. You know, it is just as skilled as something like that because it takes a certain or a very high level of skill to rap as effortlessly as this sounds, to tell this story, to rhyme, to tell a story that rhymes, but that doesn't feel. The rhyming doesn't Ever feel heavy handed? It just kind of feels organic and fun flows and I think this is a song that he couldn't have written pre. I mean, you know, it took him. It took him his entire career, I feel like, to get to a point to write this kind of song, both lyrically but also emotionally. Because as we talked about all season, there was kind of a barrier between Tyler and his emotions early on. And the work of a flower boy, the work of an Igor, gets into a place where he is able to be this comfortable as an artist, to be this honest in a song, even one where he admits he is morally in the wrong. You know, he's very transparent about him saying I'm the bad guy here. Yet this is kind of the beauty of the song. Yet I still had these feelings. I'm still going to acknowledge them. Even though I know they're morally wrong, I still had them. And it's like this. That. That's the beautiful kind of tension of a song like this and of this relationship dynamic throughout the. The album where he's saying essentially frames this relationship as the reason why he buys all these expensive things. Because he's kind of coping through materialism, which gives the boasts a little bit kind of dynamic interest as well. But yeah, I think this is a really important song in his career. I agree. It's not the song that I return to. To listen to. It's kind of one of those songs you only want to hear every so often because you don't want to spoil the impact of something like this, which is very experiential. And I think why I didn't nominate it is because of that fact. But I think it's a valid nomination.

[Charles Holmes]

I mean, but also I think the

[Justin]

album doesn't work without this song. And I like to honor the fact

[Charles Holmes]

that it's like when you think about

[Justin]

what a Gangsta Grylls is, Tyler said

[Charles Holmes]

it, it's you want to hear a

[Justin]

Pharrell or a Wayne or a Ti Boast, you want to hear about the jewelry, you want to hear about the models, you want to hear about the parties and Ty that better than anyone. But he subverts the expectation of what a Gangsta Grylls can be. To your point, which is essentially like, yeah, I have all this. And the aspirational quality of this is why we love rap music. But the one thing that I actually want in the world, not only can I not have, but fundamentally changed me as a human and shook my moral core, my moral core and my values.

[Charles Holmes]

And that's what I like about it, where it's like, oh, you like a Gangsta Grylls? And you're like, oh, I think I know what a Gangsta Grylls is. And at the last moment, Tyler goes, actually, this is what it's all about. And his ability to weave that story in effortlessly and then deliver a gut punch at the end. At least on. Not on the estate sale, but kind

[Justin]

of on the original project,

[Charles Holmes]

I loved

[Justin]

it even more than I did in 2021.

[Charles Holmes]

In 2021, I was a little bit like, all right, whatever.

[Justin]

And then kind of taking my time

[Charles Holmes]

through the record, I was like, oh,

[Justin]

conceptually, this really sells the project.

[Cole Kushna]

That's. And that's where, again, it's like where he's grown as an artist. I think because he's been making concept records since day one, he's able to pull off this magic trick. Because I was going to ask both of you guys, do you think the relationship dynamic of the album is a feature or a flaw? Because I think there's part. I mean, there's. To be honest, there's part of me that just kind of wanted to hear Tyler just rap, fucking just boast, the whole thing. Don't worry about this kind of layered nuance. But then there's an also part of me that really appreciates him as a concept artist, being able to do both simultaneously. So, Justin, I don't know, does that part of the album work for you?

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Yeah, I think that there are some songs on here that he's rapping really well, but he's telling stories. I don't want to shout them out because I don't want to step on anything. We're going to talk about in a few minutes. But, like, this didn't really feel out of place for me. Like, it's mixtape inspired, it's an aesthetic. But, you know, the Tyler we're talking about on this record is so much more mature than the one we were talking about pre Flower Boy, even though we were seeing glimpse of that on things like Wolf and Cherry Bomb. Right. So, like, it's just impossible to imagine him crafting a record, even if it is, you know, primarily built around his skills as a rapper and where he's at in his life and being braggadocious about it. Even. Even if we're in that place, it's just hard to imagine that the mature Tyler wouldn't sneak out.

[Charles Holmes]

And I also, to me, it would

[Justin]

have rang false if for an artist starting all the way back to the odd future days in Bastard who There's a lot of just not great lyrics, a lot of misogyny. And through the flower boy era, he's growing past it. I do think it's very, very special that he's talking about a woman in this way. There's other songs where he's talking about

[Charles Holmes]

the tweets that he had for Selena and all this stuff. I think it's very, very special almost that you could take Gangster Girls, which is just like, yeah, you know, I would say the history of gangsta girls are now they rappers. Talk about women on the series probably isn't great. So I do think that it is. It's not about, like. I think it's a feature that, like, Tyler is able to be like, hey,

[Justin]

yo, I could talk about how many hoes I'm getting, but also let me talk about, like, real love and how I was actually the asshole and this woman didn't do anything.

[Charles Holmes]

Like. Like, even though, like, the last part, the outro, when he's talking, it is, like, a very mature way of being like, I love this person. It's not her fault. Let me take responsibility. And I was just like, maybe I'm just washed and I'm an unk now, but I appreciate it.

[Cole Kushna]

No, that's one of my favorite parts of that song is where he's the spoken outro, where he's saying all the morals and power you have just vanish when a certain energy is nearing. And those feelings got so much gravity and it's out of your control. That made me realize adults don't know what they're doing either. We're all just children. I mean, to anybody's shit up. I thought I was bulletproof. She proved me wrong. That's such, like, emotional insight coming from Tyler right there about the situation. Being able to, like, you know, how's kind of dichotomous experiences of, yeah, I love this girl or, like, this girl. But I also could see on. Simultaneously, I could see that I'm in the wrong here, but also I can acknowledge that this is just kind of part of life and this kind of thing happens. Like, that's. It's. It's very mature emotionally. Um, so Wilshire, I think that's beautiful pick. I think it is. I'll be interested if this is something you pick for your. You know, because this would pair beautifully with Gone Gone. Thank you. On your list and make your list a lot more dynamic, so.

[Charles Holmes]

Stop, all right? Don't attack me.

[Justin]

My list. Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

You coming after me. And I've. I've been getting People coming up to

[Justin]

me and they're like, yo, dawg, like who that boy?

[Charles Holmes]

This record, that record, Those are my favorite. So. Hey, relax. But what's your. What's your first nomination?

[Cole Kushna]

All right, cool. Well then I'll go. Maybe a curveball. You know, knowing my tastes, I'm going to go. Track number one, Serbot Lair Cookie crumbs

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

in the rose Jet fuel C vest swim trunks in the trunk Geneva water the best the passport looking thick the afro need a pick My skin soak

[Charles Holmes]

up the sun Ain't shaking hands with you bums Fascinating.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Wow.

[Charles Holmes]

This I a little conductor for my man Cole.

[Cole Kushna]

That's kind of exactly why I love it. Because it's kind of true to the mixtape kind of universe of taking someone else's pre existing beat that Tyler. I mean Tyler pretty much never does this ever, which is rap over someone else's production. But this is essentially with Tyler's flourishes over it. This is a Conductor Williams beat that he took off a Westside gun project and lays a 1:16 bar verse over it. Which in this world of a mixtape, I just really love this. It stays true to the concept. And it's just Tyler not having to worry about song structure, bridges, anything like that. He's just world building. On track one, introducing us to. To the call me if you got get lost universe. Dropping a single effortless, flawless 16 bar verse and just getting out. And it's like maybe this doesn't make for the most dynamic, layered, nuanced song and maybe I don't know if it can go far in an exercise like this, but I just love the production. I love his rapping on it. I love that he was just in and out and didn't feel the need to do two bridges and three verses. Like there's just something beautiful about him being so straightforward on an opening track that we've just really never had. I've never. We rarely hear Tyler like this, so it's kind of refreshing. And the rapping is just like fucking top tier.

[Justin]

What's your favorite bar off this record?

[Cole Kushna]

So the whole last sequence is something that I highlighted. Cause it's like it's so cool. So when he says new LeFleur season, summertime looking like private school, which this is like the idiosyncratic flex that I'm talking about. He's bragging about his own self design, you know, boutique fashion label lafleur. And he's bragging that it looks like Private School because all this stuff is like, you know, has the cardigans and the ties and stuff. And he says, keep it low. Don't want that shit to blow. Like, Osama Shu is just super clever. Private School and Osama Shoe. This is what I love about rap. Like, whenever. When would you ever hear those words put together than other than in a hip hop song? Private School rhyming with Osama Shoe is just, like, fucking perfect.

[Justin]

I'm looking at kill this.

[Charles Holmes]

He did kill this.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. Hotel concierge know me as that spray style guy with the chunky ears. This is my favorite part because he says, ufc, that ship swole up, that's vvs Keep fix safe. That's a mansion on that usb. It's T. But chunky ears talking about his diamond jewelry, pairing that with UFC playing on, like, you know what is cauliflower ears. That shit swole up. VVS being obviously diamonds. That starts this ufc VVS USB motif with the letters and then ending on its T, closing out that numeric. That letter sequence is just like. And then he has multiple, like, internal rhymes and double rhyme schemes throughout this whole thing. It's like, this is technically great rapping. And he sounds really cool doing it.

[Charles Holmes]

I even like how.

[Justin]

Cause Tyler, aesthetically has always been very, very good with color. And I love how, like, he just

[Charles Holmes]

raps about, like, color and texture on this record. Like, something like, even a line is not like a flashy line, but, like, coral peach cobbler. Dude, spit like a llama do. It's just like he's putting you in this world of just, like, luxury in such a specific way to his taste

[Justin]

that I just find very, very incredible.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

Spit like a mama do used to be reckless. You should see what them commas do.

[Cole Kushna]

All right, so the sample is from Billy Cobham. It's called Siesta. Wake up. We could play a little clip of it right here. This part is so sick. The bassoon.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Conductor Williams and Westside Gun were not the first people to flip this sample, though. Anyone here familiar with the rap group famous Minneapolis rap group Atmosphere?

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, okay.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Atmosphere flipped it on their 2003 album Seven's Travel.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, sick. Okay. I didn't have that, so.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Oh, it's. That's a good record. Atmosphere. Shout Out Slug. Also, it's a Billy Cobham sample. And Billy Cobham just should say quickly. He's responsible for one of the most famous samples in all of hip hop in the song Heather, which was flipped in 93 till infinity by souls of Mischief. So Billy Cobham, great sample. Source Conductor Williams, great ear for samples. This sample part of a great Lineage. And this song. Pretty fucking good.

[Cole Kushna]

Hell, yeah. I was afraid you're gonna call me out for wasting a pick, Charles.

[Charles Holmes]

No, wait.

[Justin]

I'm surprised. I'm gonna be honest. You know, it is. I will say there are other songs off this project that seem like more Colby, but we will see if you pick them.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

All right. So is it time for my second nomination?

[Cole Kushna]

Yep.

[Justin]

All right, bro. I have to do it. Lumberjack is that one, bro.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

Roseworth's Pull up Black Boy hopped out Shout out to my mother and my father gave me pull out MSG sellout. Fuck, these niggas got about good credit score. This card really can't max out.

[Cole Kushna]

This is one of my nominations. I'll just say up front. So we doubled here of fucking.

[Charles Holmes]

Like, I knew that we were both going to pick Lumberjack. It is. Tyler talks about it. What. To me, the reason why this is my. My second favorite Tyler record is because to me, he was always in like

[Justin]

that in the Flower Boy Igor era.

[Charles Holmes]

He's very, very interested in stretching the

[Justin]

bounds of his singing voice and trying to get closer and closer to melody.

[Charles Holmes]

Call Me if youf Get Lost to

[Justin]

Me is the first time where he's really thinking about the texture of his rapping voice, the tenor of it, how he's attacking a beat, the delivery of it. Where there are certain records like Lumberjack,

[Charles Holmes]

where he's not doing too much the

[Justin]

beat and him are in perfect synthesis.

[Charles Holmes]

He is not. And that, to me, is like what

[Justin]

makes a great rapper.

[Charles Holmes]

And he does it constantly throughout the projects where. Through the project where. When he needs to be a little bit more excited, when he needs to sell a punchline, he takes a lot from Wayne. When he needs to get a little

[Justin]

bit more gravelly, you hear, like, the Jeezy influence. There's so many times on this record where.

[Charles Holmes]

Where he is in complete control of

[Justin]

his instrument as a rapper.

[Charles Holmes]

And I think Lumberjack is a perfect

[Justin]

example of him just not doing too much.

[Charles Holmes]

I think the opening line of the chorus is a perfect, perfect Rolls Royce. Pull up black boy Hop out Shout out to my mother and my father didn't pull out ease. Once again, we're not talk. Like, the lines that I like off

[Justin]

Call me if you get lost aren't

[Charles Holmes]

always the big punchline parts. It's the, like, this is slick. This is reminding me of like, hov. It's like something that, like a rapper just gets off and you're like, this is the peak of rapping. To me, where it's so cool. You almost Won't like pay attention to it unless you really love hip hop. I just, I, I also, before I get into the other things I love about this, can Cole, can you guess

[Justin]

what my favorite moment off this record is?

[Charles Holmes]

And it's one of the most mixtape parts of it.

[Cole Kushna]

When he starts over in the beginning.

[Charles Holmes]

No, it's when Jasper comes. It's different. It's really different. It's different. It's really different. I might study you so good I want to run through the wall. It's like such a little part, but it's like Jasper's. Jasper's ad libs on this are so good. And then my question for you before, before I talk about why you love

[Justin]

this song is do we really think

[Charles Holmes]

that he is being truthful and that

[Justin]

he paid Drake a million dollars to get booed at Camp Flogda?

[Cole Kushna]

I believe him. It seems like this album is full of truth. I don't think the flexes are exaggerated at all, actually.

[Justin]

Oh, no, no.

[Cole Kushna]

I'm not saying I believe him.

[Charles Holmes]

I'm not saying he's lying. I'm more so being like, damn, Drake's quote was a million. Like, that makes sense. If I'm, if I'm Tyler, I'm like, damn, you ungrateful ass motherfuckers. Like, I just dropped a millie. I thought you'd be excited. I remember that night. One of the funniest nights on the Internet.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Funny. Oh my God, what a great night.

[Cole Kushna]

People built it up that it was going to be Frank Ocean. And so when it was A, not frank and then B, the consolation prize was Drake to that audience. I mean, Tyler admitted it was kind of tone deaf, him even bringing Drake there. But Justin, you remember that night?

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

I remember that night. I mean, it was just great moments. I mean, this is. Look, Twitter isn't what it once was, but like, these are the moments that Twitter was created for.

[Cole Kushna]

I kind of felt bad for the boy.

[Justin]

You felt bad for Drake? Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

All right. Honestly. Hey, I'm light skinned too. Hey, Tyler, if you want to pay me a million dollars to get booed at Camp Flogged all, I'll do it fucking tomorrow.

[Justin]

I don't care.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Cole, Cole, you have put out so much stuff about so many lower moments of Drake's career. And this is where you're like, I feel bad that he got paid a million dollars.

[Cole Kushna]

Like, yeah, I guess the money, it worked.

[Charles Holmes]

Like, listing the moments like you're hiding a child is one where I was like, okay, I actually feel bad about this. You get a boo For a million dollars, it's kind of like, ah, put some Vaseline on it, you'll be fine. But why are you like Lumberjack?

[Cole Kushna]

I like it for a lot of the reasons you do. I particularly like it. And he does this a lot on this album. But it may be the best on this song, which is the. The beat itself seems to naturally call for a certain style of rapping, especially from Tyler.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

And he does the opposite of what you think he's going to do. And he just raps super cool and understated, yet he has the kind of wherewithal and the genius to know that. I also do need that hype element. So I'm going to bring Jasper in here to do all these hyped ad libs around me being super cool. And I'm going to sound even cooler. Amongst. It's like being. It's like being cool under pressure, under chaos is the dynamic that you are feeling when you're listening to this, which is like, what is. That's the coolest. That's every superhero movie, that's every action movie, someone that doesn't buckle under stress. And that's kind of what this song sonically gets at for me, where I just love that dynamic between him and the beat. And there was a world in which especially early Tyler would one just like straight up go crazy on something like this, or at least get to that point eventually. But he never does on this song. And I think that's part of the restraint that this mature Tyler has. That's a talent that he has grown into, which is knowing he doesn't always have to take it to 10. He can let the beat be a 10 or he can let Jasper be a 10. And I'm going to be right here in the middle and create some tension. So that's. That's the main reason why I love this song. The beat itself is fucking really, really cool.

[Justin]

Perfect.

[Cole Kushna]

I got some nerdy sample shit that we can go over. Cause I know Justin, I'd love to

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

talk about this one.

[Cole Kushna]

Well, I mean, you could kick it off. Cause I feel like this is your wheelhouse.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

What I think is interesting is. Well, it's a sample. It's a re. Imagining slight reimagining of a song by the Gravediggers, which was a horrorcore group from the 90s. Put out a couple records. One of them was six feet deep, is just. It's a cult classic. It is an amazing record. The Gravediggers were. There were four members, the two most prominent ones of Them you might recognize these names. Prince Paul, one of the greatest producers who's ever lived who produced that track. And another one of the greatest producers who's ever lived, the rza.

[Cole Kushna]

Let's just play the sample that it comes from. This is Gravediggers Two Cups of Blood. Prince Paul produced. So Sick. And then if we look up the original sample that 2 cups of blood sampled, it is by Larry Williams inner crisis from 1970. So sick. And my ear is like, oh, of course Tyler likes that. That's the minor second that's all over Tyler's music since day one. That really dissonant interval that he. He on every single album. Half. Half of his records have minor second intervals. So of course his ear is going to be drawn to it. Also. What's interesting is the drums from this track come from a song called I'm Gonna Butcher this Name Hihachi. Oh, but this is like a super famous by the Lafayette afro Rock Band, 1973. And this, these drums. As you know, Justin, everywhere in hip hop sampled in 317 songs. If we're going by who sampled, probably more that aren't documented on there. It's also sampled on Biz Marquis. Nobody Beats the Biz, which is a song itself, is one of the most sampled songs in hip hop history. Sampled over 135 times. And this is what I love about this record and what Tyler is doing on it. Because even just rapping over this beat, from the Grave Diggers to then going back all the way to these Larry Williams and Lafayette Rock Band samples is like he is placing himself in a lineage. He is saying without saying it, I am a part of this lineage. And in every bit of Leo of a more quote unquote traditional rapper. To his point about Q Tip and his. His ability to do both, he can be the quote unquote weird experimental guy kind of adjacent to traditional hip hop. But this is him saying, no, I actually love this genre. It's not something that I have been running from at all. It's actually something I have embraced from day one. And this album is going to make that more explicit. But this has been me since the. Since forever. And I love that that history is kind of just built in organically into this record where he doesn't have to say it all the time. He could just be it because he is it. You know what I mean?

[Justin]

Is this Tyler's GNX in a lot of way or. Honestly, this came out first. So Kendrick's gnx where it's like, I think What I was thinking about when I was going back listening to Call Me if youf Get Lost is I think for black artists, especially to win a Grammy as a rapper, a lot of the times you have to fit into a lot of boxes that will appeal to white voters. The Grammys, they're working on it, but historically has been very, very white. And I think it's the same thing with publications, whether it's Pitchfork or Fader or this or that. And to me, what I love about Call Me if youf Get Lost is once Tyler gets all that, I think he does have a moment that I think a lot of rappers do, where it's like, the coolest thing in the world is rapping as a genre. It is something in and of itself where it's like, igor isn't special because there's less rapping on it. Igor is special because Tyler, the creator, locked in on a production level, on a musical level.

[Charles Holmes]

But to me, that doesn't make it the best.

[Justin]

That alone doesn't make it the best project in his discography. And I think when I listen to something like Call Me if youf Get Lost is an artist saying like, hey, from day one, I love the tenets of hip hop from a production level, from a sampling level, from a rapping level, and it's finally an artist. And I think this happens. It's not lost on me that it happened in his 30s. I think this happens with a lot of artists where you're finally like, oh, no. The building blocks of this thing that I love, the genre I love, it's part of my duty is to protect it. You know, in the same way that Kendrick is like, no, I'm of a lineage of the west coast that has been part of me, but now I'm going to push it forward and show you the present of it and what the future can be. To me, this is Tyler being like, not only am I of a lineage, I know I have a predominantly white audience. Part of my power and part of my responsibility is to show y', all,

[Charles Holmes]

even if I'm not telling you out

[Justin]

loud, these are the core tenets of it.

[Charles Holmes]

And that's why I love a song like Lumberjack, because it does that to the nth degree.

[Cole Kushna]

One last thing I'll just point out, because it is a little bit on the nerdy side. And, you know, Tyler doesn't have a ton of lyrics that do this, but I love that when he needs to, he can. So there's like the second half of the chorus where he says, Whips on whips My ancestors got their backs out too far 500 stacks for the hood Call me Lunderer Jack because you wish a guy would whip some whips My

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

ancestors got their backs off too far 500 stacks for the hood Call me lumberjack Cause I wish you would like.

[Cole Kushna]

So slyly he's building on like the. The song title is called Lumberjack because that whole second half of the chorus he's saying 500 stacks, which is obviously money. Then he says call me lumberjack playing on the fact paper and money and then wood race. So I wish it. And wood is slash W O O D and then pays it off at the end. They get in paper like they should. So you have this motif of wood that is very subtle but is quote unquote dissectible, which is again like it's kind of everything about this album where it's like put it under a microscope, it holds up. We can make all these connections to the history and the lineage of hip hop, mixtapes and collectives and all these things, but it's never, oh, it's never heavy handed throughout this entire project. It's just kind of it, it's just. It just is. And it's there if you want to see it. But it's not something that's just going to like really call attention to itself, which is like what I really have come to appreciate particularly about this album for this exercise because I didn't really pick up on this as maybe as in detail as I did this time around. But I think that's enough on Lumberjack. I'm glad we both picked it. I think it's a strong contender for this album's last long standing, which leaves us with our last picks off this album. Let's take a quick break. We come back. I'm very curious to see where you're going. This episode is brought to you by Sierra Nevada Hazy Little Thing. If you saw the band when they played at the bar or stopped mid festival to look at the stars Then you're ready to embrace the haze with Hazy Little Thing Citrusy, smooth and easy to drink it pairs with nights that don't need a script Brewed with the purest ingredients for finest quality There's a reason it's America's best selling Hazy ipa. Embrace the haze with Sierra Nevada Hazy Little Thing. Enjoy responsibly. All right, we are back. Charles, where are we going with the last pick? Do you have a short list of like honorable mentions you want to call out or do you want to Go straight to your last pick.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

See?

[Charles Holmes]

Let's see off. Call me if you get lost. Corso was.

[Justin]

Was one that I almost picked. Corso in my heart is just dog. I love Corso so much.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

Hmm.

[Justin]

Any other ones?

[Cole Kushna]

Corso? Corso is also brilliant in that he sets up the relationship in that song on track two so that when you get to it at the end of the album, it makes sense and doesn't come out of nowhere Again, this is Tyler just being so good at making concept albums to know, okay, I need to plant the seeds early so that when I get here, it makes sense.

[Charles Holmes]

Also, I love that, like, I love

[Justin]

the Damo feature on Manifesto. I just like Manifesto as a song.

[Charles Holmes]

Gotta have it.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

Lord, cover me, I'm going in. Walls closing in How I'm supposed to be protected when allowed.

[Charles Holmes]

I didn't pick it because I don't think he can, like, get far in the Royal Rumble. Yeah, those were the two.

[Justin]

Corso and Manifesto were ones where I was just like, oh, no, these are.

[Charles Holmes]

These are them ones.

[Justin]

But I gotta go with Lemonhead. I think the beat to Lemon Head is insane, bro. I think it's one of the best.

[Cole Kushna]

When we woo hot.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

It's a split mode and they know you push it like a douche out, bitch.

[Justin]

I'm cool, Cool and his mouth wet.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

He approved. Now you can stage die but they too loud.

[Justin]

I was too hot.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

TLC water falls on my chest.

[Justin]

Help me cool on this project. When we talk about Lemonhead reminds me a lot of Cherry Bomb, but like

[Charles Holmes]

a perfected version of it.

[Justin]

There's so much happening.

[Charles Holmes]

Tyler's delivery is incredible. One of my favorite bars. Talking about, like, a slick bar that's not gonna hit you over the head with how funny it is. But I listened to it again.

[Justin]

I was like, all right, you gu

[Charles Holmes]

got a roommate. He won't move out if you want smoke. He. The cool aunt is just. It's such a slick little bar. And I'm like, dog. Tyler's theatricality on the song reminds me of Peak Wayne, where he has this moment where he does like a hawk. Like, he spits like he does that FX that is just Gangsta Grylls. The projects always. Wayne specifically reminded me of those moments that in a bubble are a little corny, but are just like. It's what makes it so fun. When he was talking to DJ Drama, he was like, yo, the thing that

[Justin]

was so special about those tapes is you could take a song that was technically a four, and now it's a

[Charles Holmes]

seven or Eight because DJ Drama's fucking yelling over it. Wayne has like one or two verses. Some of the punchlines are corny, but he'll have two or three where you're like, dog, this is the funniest shit I've ever heard. Frank. Ouch. Frank. Wait, what were we gonna say?

[Cole Kushna]

I was just gonna piggyback on because that section is something I wanted to highlight from this song. Because again, going back, this idea of Tyler placing himself in a lineage, even placing Odd Future in a lineage. Like that whole section where he's saying it's the Wolfgang talking about essentially Odd Future. There's Brooklyn Zoo out. So we have this connection between Wolf and Zoo, but obviously Brooklyn Zoo being an old dirty bastard song. So then he says, Wu Tang get you chewed out. Then we, Wooha. This is flip mode. So he's calling out Flip mode Wu Tang Collectives, you know, and. And starting with Odd Future Wolfgang. And just, you know, that whole. That whole section is so good.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

It's the Wolf Gang, Brooklyn.

[Charles Holmes]

But I think even though There was

[Justin]

some 42 Doug slander earlier.

[Cole Kushna]

Not slander. It wasn't no slander.

[Charles Holmes]

Here's the thing. There is, and I always say this about rappers.

[Justin]

There are some rappers who are meant

[Charles Holmes]

to be here for a long time,

[Justin]

and there's some rappers who are meant to be here for a good time.

[Charles Holmes]

For two Doug, he had a moment in the sun and when he was rapping, he was rapping his ass off.

[Justin]

I honestly think he gets the best of Tyler on this song.

[Charles Holmes]

To me, this beat exemplifies what makes

[Justin]

Fortwo Dug so interesting, which is like.

[Charles Holmes]

He's almost like. His rapping style is like this weird hyperkinetic, frog like creature. And the beat and everything that's built around him is he reminds me in a weird way of like a Busta Rhymes almost. And the beat is so crazy around him, it creates this amazing tapestry and texture. Lemonhead is. For Tyler to get this good as

[Justin]

a producer and as a rapper. This is why it's my second favorite Tyler project currently. Maybe Chromicopia.

[Charles Holmes]

Will.

[Justin]

Will. Will surprise me is because of records like Lemon Head and. And him being able to infuse a

[Charles Holmes]

lot of the jokeyness and a lot of the hyperactive qualities of his music,

[Justin]

but still keep it in that really cool pocket of what we know is a gangster girls tape.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. I just have to point out this might be. It's a rare song in which one rapper shits on one thing and the other rapper boasts about it.

[Charles Holmes]

So.

[Cole Kushna]

So Ty. So Tyler says, earlobe with lemon heads looking like Bart. Keep your Patek. I spent that on art. So he's undermining Patek. Watch. And then four two Doug says, two tone Patek in this bitch. Goddamn flexing about his Patek. I just thought that was funny.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

Hey.

[Charles Holmes]

But I'll be honest, that's also what

[Justin]

makes the song funny, because I know.

[Cole Kushna]

Well, not funny.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

It looks.

[Cole Kushna]

I love that dynamic, actually, because what.

[Charles Holmes]

And I. But to me, it's what makes this

[Justin]

special is that I think a lot of Tyler fans, or the cliche version of them can think that they're above a 42 Doug. They can think they're above a young boy that is lesser in terms of just what that music is doing. And call me if you get lost is saying, like, no, no, no, no. A four two Doug, an NBA young boy, a lil Uzi vertical.

[Charles Holmes]

That is just as special.

[Justin]

That is just as important, in my opinion.

[Charles Holmes]

Like, yo, when we talk about. When people talk about country music, hey, yo, we know what country music, nine times out of 10 is about. It's about breaking up with your girl Whiskey and the planes and don't complain. Why are we complaining with four two Dog wants to protect. Like, hey, yo, like, let this get off. Like, she like. I'm like, hey, that's part of rap, too. And I love that Tyler is uplifting that. Because to a kid, NBA Young, there's no difference between NBA YoungBoy and what Jeezy meant to a young Tyler. And that's what I love about this record is it's saying, like, no, not only am I of a lineage of what came before, I am of a lineage of these rappers that are just as popping and it's. And Tyler said he's like. He's never felt. He's never felt accepted by rap. And this is a project where it's like, hey, yo, I don't need to

[Justin]

feel accepted by rap.

[Charles Holmes]

I'm going to show you by who

[Justin]

I'm collaborating with that I'm just as much a part of it.

[Charles Holmes]

So I want to shout out Lemonhead.

[Justin]

Yep.

[Cole Kushna]

It's a great pick. I do have a question for both of you. Are you guys aware of the sample theory, the Minecraft sample theory around this song? I'll let you.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

I'll see the floor to you.

[Charles Holmes]

Did you say Minecraft?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. Okay, so there's this theory that Tyler sampled this song called I Came to Dig Minecraft Rap by Try Hard Ninja. Have you guys heard of Try Hard Ninja?

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Yeah, I think he worked with Prince Paul in the verza. No, I'm joking.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, so it's like a spoof. It's a parody rap song about Minecraft, essentially. But if you listen to the intro of this song, there's a case to be made.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, I want to see all your pickaxes in the air and sing this one with me.

[Justin]

Are you ready?

[Cole Kushna]

Listen to the horn, though.

[Charles Holmes]

The horn,

[Cole Kushna]

I'm sorry to say. It does. They're very, very similar. Same rhythm, same.

[Justin]

Why do you hate us, Cole?

[Charles Holmes]

Do your daughters play Minecraft?

[Cole Kushna]

They do, yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Oh, so you're trying to.

[Cole Kushna]

No, no, Actually, no. No, they. They play Roblox. Sorry. I think that's different. I'm on the fence. I'm not actually sure. It seems. I mean, it's very similar.

[Justin]

It would not surprise me, is all I'm saying.

[Charles Holmes]

Tyler seems very, very online.

[Justin]

It would not surprise me. But, yeah, that. That did ruin my day. I'm not going to hold you.

[Cole Kushna]

Justin looks so disappointed right now.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

I'm just. Look, I'm in New York. You guys are on west coast time. I'm on east coast time. I've been traveling, and I'm like. We've hit the part of the episode where we're going over Minecraft.

[Cole Kushna]

Samp.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

You know, I don't know. I mean. Sure, let's go.

[Cole Kushna]

All right, so anything else on Lemonhead or. Okay. Lemonade was on my short list. You know, this exercise was really hard for me. Just let me shout out a couple before I get to my. My actual nomination. What's your name? Love it.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

You a bright light and I'm like a moth. This is not a game.

[Charles Holmes]

What's your name, girl?

[Cole Kushna]

It's a little too short or something. Like, there's something about it that I just couldn't nominate it, but I love it when I hear it. Hot wind blows. I'm actually with hot wind blows on your short list. Charles, I'm surprised that you weren't on the fence. No, I think it's great. I think Lil Wayne sounds great on that. Beat

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

me see now. I guess they see now. That's touchdown.

[Justin]

Catch a beat down.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

Like, I catch touchdown.

[Cole Kushna]

I was really close with Massa.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

Always curious as a child and asking questions. So I ain't get no if and bucks if they accept me.

[Cole Kushna]

Yo, that to me, is like a. Is a form of Wilshire in terms of, like, flexing a different muscle lyrically and. And with his. With his flow in terms of, like, telling his story. Basically telling his story since Cherry Bomb to now and how he's matured late and kind of like going through all the eras and all the growth that he had over the last couple years. Okay. So I was forever gonna pick Sweet. I thought you wanted to dance. I love this song. Charles is already shaking his head.

[Charles Holmes]

I knew like, bro, if you picked

[Justin]

this song, I would have been so fucking pissed.

[Charles Holmes]

This is the song off the project

[Justin]

that I'm just like. It derails it for me. I'm like, come on, this is Gangsta Grylls, bro. Like, get this shit outta here.

[Cole Kushna]

Here. Justin, are you a fan of Sweet?

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

I wanted to dance, you know, I wasn't back in 2021. Not that I disliked it, but it just didn't really grab me and it's been grabbing me a lot more on these recent listens. I think it's a really good song. To Charles's slight disgust, I do think that would have been the most cold pick possible left on the board.

[Cole Kushna]

You're better than that. Well, what. Okay, see, this is what I love about it, is the musicality of it. And I think Tyler really likes this track or these two tracks. I think it's specifically because there are some musical moments that are the best in his career, I would say. There's a bridge on Suite that is Crazy. There's a synth solo on Suite that is Crazy. There's this one just one time flourish that he does on the lyric, you know how I feel about you. And it kind of rises, just kind of breaks into this totally different thing and then just comes right back to the verse. So there's all these things where my musical brain is like, that's really creative. Oh, that chord progression, really, really, really beautiful. Really complex. Technically sound like really, really good. I thought you wanted to dance. I think it's really fun.

[Charles Holmes]

I love the production on this, to be clear.

[Justin]

I think the production on this song is amazing. I just don't. It's something about the singing and the lyrics where I'm like, they do not live up to how good the production is, in my opinion.

[Cole Kushna]

I agree with that on Suite to some extent. I think I thought you wanted to dance. Is really good all the way through. But Sweet does drag a little, like, at moments for me. And I think him grouping together might have been strategic because I think he probably knew this was a little bit of a derailment and there's going to be a certain audience that doesn't like it. And it's just very easy to skip this 10 minute kind of sidebar by just pushing skip and Then you get to the next.

[Justin]

I am the.

[Cole Kushna]

You're on your way. Yeah, I figured. But ultimately, I couldn't go with this song because I wanted a song that feels more representative of the project. And there was a song that grew on me very late into the game. And it might be a very big curveball to most listeners here, but it's the last track. Safari. I think this song would get a lot more credit if it was earlier on the project because I think it's some of his best rapping on the entire album. The flow on the first verse, he has his voice kind of like pitched up and he's having this super rapid flow. We'll play a clip here.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

All the change from the car Get a passport see the world Open your eyes to your back hurt get bread and one loose backwards Start with your feet in the car in the airport get out your bubble gum Blow up

[Cole Kushna]

horizons but then he can. He can contrast that with the flow on the. The second verse, which is very much. I don't know if it's a tribute to MF Doom, but it's very much in the Doom universe in terms of his rapping style and the metaphors that he does.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

Every car retarded the garage look like a loony man with koopie in depends on the fit and the type of moody in I been switching gears since Tracy Ellis Ross was UPN clutch that he stroke Gotta know it like a

[Cole Kushna]

droopy grin Kind of just kind of this, like loopy, off the wall, abstract kind of cartoon references and kind of funny punchlines. And I just think he, like, he just. There's something about the song that grew on me late. And if I'm trying to think of a song that represents the album, I think this is really great to do that because, like, again, he's rapping, I think his best maybe on the entire project. On. On these verses. Are you guys. Is this a weird pick? Is it a wasted pick? What do you guys think?

[Charles Holmes]

It's not a wasted pick.

[Justin]

It was a song that I had overlooked to your point, because it comes so late. And then listening to it, I was like, oh, to me, this song would have worked way better up front almost, because the production is amazing. To your point. His rapping is great. The performance is great.

[Charles Holmes]

And it coming so late, it's almost. I guess it does kind of close the loop. But I was like, oh, it wasn't until you like. Cause like, before we come on, like, spoiler alert, sometimes we give like a short list of like, here's some songs I'm thinking about as Safari was like Safari. I've never even thought of Safari. When I went, I was like, oh, Safari is actually like a hidden gem on this project. Is it? Would you say it's one of the

[Justin]

most least listed to songs just because

[Charles Holmes]

it's not near the top in terms of streams?

[Cole Kushna]

It is definitely. I don't think it's the lowest, but it's like, it's pretty close. And I think it is just simply because I wouldn't say this album is bloated at all, but it is. I feel like it. I don't know, maybe. Let me fact check. But it feels like a longer project, 52 minutes. So, I mean, it's not that long, but it is longer than an Igor or even a flower boy. And I think, yeah, I could see not some people not getting to this final track, but that was kind of part of why I wanted to nominate it was to shine a light on it. Because if you don't understand how good it is, just start with this song and I think, you know, you'll see why I nominated it. Do you have any thoughts on this, Justin?

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

No. I mean, I think to your point, I had kind of forgotten the song existed because in my mind, Wilshire kind of felt like the closer to the album in a lot of ways. So re listening to the album was like rediscovering. And every single time it did catch me. I was not expecting you to pick it, though. So this is. This is interesting.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, I think. I mean, I don't know if I'll pick it for the last song standing. I probably won't. But if you listen to the lyrics like, it does kind of close the loop, quote unquote, like. Because he really pays off on, like. I mean, he gets very explicit. He says, fuck all the trains and the cars Get a passport See the world Open your eyes Till your back hurt People get bred and won't leave Shit is backwards Start with your feet Then a car then an airport so he's just like. He's just like encouraging people to leave their house, leave their comfort zone and go travel, experience the world. Which is kind of what this album is all about, you know, Find who you are, find what you like and do that. Get out of your own bubble and explore. Make yourself uncomfortable and grow. So I think it does close the album off thematically very nicely. And again, I think it just. He's just fucking rapping his ass off. I mean, he says the suit was so sharp it could Get Medusa coochie trimmed, which is like. I mean, to me, that's, like, so doom. He says clutch. Then he stroke out of nowhere like a droopy grin. Like, stroke face, but also stroking car, like, so sick. So listen to Safari. If you're not familiar with it, you're gonna love it. But I think that takes us to. Unless you had something else, Charles.

[Charles Holmes]

No.

[Justin]

Like, before we get to the Royal Rumble, let's recap. So I picked. We both picked Lumberjack. I pick Lemonhead, and then I also picked Wilshire.

[Cole Kushna]

I picked Safari, Lumberjack, and Sir Baudelaire.

[Justin]

All right, so let's head into the Royal Rumble.

[Cole Kushna]

All right, so this is now where we are forced to choose our last song, standing off of Call Me if youf Get Lost. The songs that each of us choose are going to be taken into the finale Royal Rumble, which is coming up in just a couple episodes. So I won. This is where winning this today's quiz is really going to come in clutch for me because. Because I got the most points, I get first. And we had an overlap here, a rare overlap in our nominations. And I'm gonna go cutting right to the chase. I'm going Lumberjack. Last song standing off, Call Me if youf Get Lost. I'm going Lumberjack.

[Justin]

Oh, you had to pick it. I knew it was gonna happen. You had to pick it. I'm not gonna belabor it.

[Charles Holmes]

I think Wilshire is the more important song.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Justin]

I think it is, like, it's a beautiful song, but I have gone, gone. Thank you. Which I feel like are similar and just in terms of just like, ambitious scope. Tyler pushing himself. And also, I'm gonna go back to the old Charles. And I like Bangers, so I'm going Lemonhead. Fuck, I love Lemonhead. Like, shit.

[Charles Holmes]

I was putting that shit on today.

[Justin]

The Bart Simpson line is incredible. Like, fuck it, I'm going Lemonhead. It's. What better way to celebrate Gangsta Grylls and the spirit of having nothing but bangers than picking a banger.

[Cole Kushna]

That's kind of what I felt like with this album, which was, like, even the nominations were a little bit hard. And I asked some of my friends that I know that love this album. Shout out. Darren. Greg. But I was like, which of the tracks that you guys really like on this song? And they both came back with totally different songs. And they came back. Each of them came back with totally different songs that I was even thinking about. What were their exercise? Like this. Like, let's see. Greg really liked Manifesto that was. Would be his top choice. Corso, what's your name? Like, it was like. It was just a super varied list, which kind of, I think speaks to what this album is, which is. It's hard to pluck a single song from this album, especially the first half, because it all kind of flows together really nicely, all on mixtape. And some of the tracks just have like one verse, you know, 1:16 or like one verse and a feature, you know, like a hot wind blows. So where it's like where you're trying to just pick one song that's going to be representative of the album or could have a chance to go far. Maybe some of these songs don't have the gravitas or the weight, you know, that like a Gone Gone. Thank you does or even like a Yonkers does. You know, that was the hard. The challenging part of this exercise, where I'm like, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts in the truest sense of the phrase.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

But I'm glad that we both went with what I think are perfectly representative of this project, which are almost like Lucy Feeling bangers that just kind of. Tyler's wrapping his ass off over a great beat. And like, what else do you kind of want from this album? Right, Justin? Are we in the wrong slash? Do you want to. Any songs you want to consider using your. Whatever we're calling this Instant Replay challenges the var.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

We need to think of a better name for it. I'm going to think of it for next time. You just sprung this on me. Mass is really, really, really good, I think. And I think you shouted it out. But that was a song that I was referencing a couple times when I was like, we'll get to these songs. I figured somebody would have picked that song, to be honest, but for at least the nominations. He's just rapping so well and also, like, just being so reflective on how he arrived at the position he's in while he's just rapping really, really well. But I don't think I could pick that over these two. These were my two songs that when I first hit play on this record, even though, you know, my feelings about the record have changed and maybe even evolved for the better since 2021. These were the. Lumberjack and Wilshire were the first two that I thought of when I was thinking of this record. Some people are going to get upset about Sweet and I thought you wanted to dance.

[Cole Kushna]

Not being here, I was surprised at the streams on this song. So what's your name? Has the Most streams because there's a single. And, you know, I don't know if I got radio play, but that's most, at least on Spotify. It's like 463 million. But right behind it is sweet. I thought you wanted to dance at 424 million streams, so. People love that song.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Just as a point of clarification, all the stuff from the Estate Sale we're covering, we. They don't count for this record.

[Cole Kushna]

Correct? Yeah, we should have said that up top. But, yeah, we're gonna. We have a Lucy's Dedicated episode. We're gonna pair with Don't Tap the Glass. So we're gonna. Everything on the Estate Sale is fair game on that episode. We're technically counting those as, like, B sides, essentially.

[Tyler the Creator (song lyrics)]

Cool.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Because we'd be here for another three and a half hours if we had to do right now.

[Cole Kushna]

All right, so next up, Chromo Copia, an album. Okay, this is interesting. So both of you guys haven't returned to Chroma Copia probably since it came out. So let's get your pre revisiting Chromo Copia thoughts here briefly, and then we're going to see if they change after revisiting it.

[Charles Holmes]

I will say it is a.

[Justin]

It is a record that you love a lot, that when I try to listen to it, I bounced off it for some reason. And it was not because the record was bad.

[Charles Holmes]

It was just. It did not seem as much of

[Justin]

an evolution for Tyler this time around. It almost seemed like a half step.

[Charles Holmes]

And that's not in a bad way. It was just like, after something like

[Justin]

Igor, where he takes a big swing

[Charles Holmes]

and then call me if you get lost, where it's like, oh, this is my victory lap, dog. I've always been able to rap, but

[Justin]

I'm a really show, y'.

[Charles Holmes]

All.

[Justin]

Chroma Copia almost felt a little less significant.

[Charles Holmes]

Is. Is that. Am I being a hater, Justin?

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

No, that's. That's exactly my impression that, like every Tyler record from Goblin on either seemed to represent this massive leap forward or a pivot into something that'd be a little unexpected and that he pulled off really well. And Chroma Copia, to me, I thought it was really, really good, but it just. It didn't. It didn't quite stick with me like the others. And I think for a lot of the same things that Charles felt. But, Cole, I know that you and a lot of the fan base feel very, very strongly about that, so I'm willing to be completely wrong. About this one.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. I'm looking forward to hearing next week's thoughts on it. So, everyone, revisit chromacopia. Thanks to everyone that contributed the episode, and we'll see you next week. All right, we are back for the cultural exchange.

[Justin]

Yes, this one is going to be interesting.

[Cole Kushna]

I assigned you. Okay, I'm very interested. So I assigned you the Sunset Limited by Cormac McCarthy. A play that is, I guess. Yeah, it's just a play. It's dramatic. How long did it take you to read? Yeah. It took you, what, an hour to read?

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah, I did it in two sittings.

[Justin]

Read most of it, went to sleep, read the other half, and. Fascinating pick. Fascinating pick, Cole. Because at times I was leaning back, like, I hate this. And then I was leaning forward. This is really, really interesting. And by the end, I did not know how to feel, which I think is the mark of just, like, interesting art. Because I think at first I pulled back because there was a feeling of, like. I'm like, is McCarthy playing on the magical Negro trope? Or is he falling prey to it? Then there was a feeling of, okay,

[Charles Holmes]

this is not a play. And I could see why some of

[Justin]

the reviews were like, this is more a novel.

[Charles Holmes]

And then when you get into the

[Justin]

text of it, where you have the white character, the professor, who is an

[Charles Holmes]

atheist,

[Justin]

basically the plot of the play, the novel, is that he's about to throw himself in front of the Sunset Limited when a black man saves him, who's very, very religious. I thought their argument was fascinating, which was like.

[Charles Holmes]

I was like.

[Justin]

I was in the coffee shop, like, reading.

[Charles Holmes]

I was like, oh, this is really, really. And then when you get to the end, that's really what I want to

[Justin]

talk to you about.

[Charles Holmes]

Which is, like, it does.

[Justin]

The thing that I love is that it leaves you on a note of ambiguity, where essentially, you don't know where McCarthy, as the writer begins. Which character is his viewpoint. If either of it is his viewpoint, is the nihilism of the world where he sits or the black character who is like, you think your pain makes you so singular, that you are wrapped up in education and science and culture, and you think. Think that you are the only person in the world that is experiencing this pain when there was something so much deeper.

[Charles Holmes]

I was like, okay.

[Justin]

Yeah, I was like. I was. I ended it being like, oh, I'm really. I'm really happy that. That you recommended this one.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. So I read this a couple times when I was, like, early 20s. So, like, to your point, there does I didn't recognize it back then, but rereading it for this exercise, I was like, oh, yeah, there are kind of some tropes that might be a little. I don't know. I was curious to see how you felt about those things. But I just think the concept of it is super fascinating and how it plays out, where it's like, essentially these are represent. These are just symbols of a certain, you know, where you have the classic white intellect who's, like, puts all his pride into thought and that Lee, in this case, leads him down this nihilistic path. But you could sell it. You could tell he takes a certain amount of pride in it. There's almost like an ego to it, like, where he is above the world and his intellect places him above people. And then you have this kind of more tortured. Who has, you know, this guy that has been to prison who has seen and experienced a lot of trauma. He's the one that has faith in the world. You know, he's the one trying to convince this privileged, essentially privileged white intellectual that, no, there's something beyond this and this. This thing is worth living. And he's living in this, you know, shithole apartment where, you know, it seems like just. They're just drug. Drug users. And as the. The white guy's just saying this. This place is horrible. Why do you live here? And it's just. Yeah, it ends up being just a very interesting thought experiment in terms of, like, when you're reading it, I don't know how you experienced it, but like you, I identified with both characters at certain points where I've been down the path of, like, I definitely felt in times of my life that I was going down the path of the white guy, where I was getting very cynical and nihilistic about things. But then there's also. I see the hope and the beauty and the faith of the black man's character. And we're saying white and black because that's literally their names in the play. But the black guy's character. There was also moments where I'm like, yeah, that is or has to be. There has to be some hope or some optimism that things are going to get better or aren't as bad as they are, or otherwise we would all just fucking kill ourselves. Right. Like, the white guy ends up concluding to. And. Yeah, and the fact that it leaves you not saying one is right or wrong. And I mean, really, I actually ended up feeling empathetic for. For the black guy's character because he wasn't able to convince the white guy of a worldview that would change. It seemed like the guy was just gonna go out and kill himself, basically, is what I took away from it. I don't know how you felt about it, but that was kind of like, yeah, nice try, but he's kind of on his own path. That seems, like, unstoppable.

[Charles Holmes]

Well, that's why I feel like this

[Justin]

would have worked better as a novella. Because when I've read other Carmen McCarthy novels, he's such a descriptive writer. And because it's formatted as a play, I think a lot of the cliches and a lot of the tropes where I was like, ooh, could have been smoothed out in a novella where you're getting more of. Instead of it being a character talking

[Charles Holmes]

to you about their background, you are

[Justin]

getting a lot of the description that makes them a more full character.

[Charles Holmes]

So by the end, it wasn't necessarily

[Justin]

that I felt bad for the black character. It was more so I was interested in what McCarthy was trying to say about belief.

[Charles Holmes]

Because the whole time I did find,

[Justin]

as someone who has been very nihilistic in the past, very black and white, no pun intended, or maybe pun intended in the past,

[Charles Holmes]

maybe this is growth. I felt like the white character was not making any points in terms of just like. And that's what makes for a fascinating read. Because, like, the more I've grown and the more I matured, I'm just like, yeah, nihilism gets you nowhere. Like, the easiest thing in the world

[Justin]

is to be like, nothing matters. Nothing makes sense. We are just built on this world, and this world is nothing but pain and misery.

[Charles Holmes]

It's not until you get through that thinking where, like, that is actually the easiest way to go through life because, like, you're taking all of your responsibility out of it. And so it's not. As someone who does not necessarily believe in organized religion, the reason I think I felt more for the black character was like, no, he's doing actually the harder thing, which is just like, it's not Jesus that he is. It's not Jesus or Christianity really, to me, that he was trying to convince this character of. It was him trying to be like,

[Justin]

the hardest thing is to reach out to someone, to actually say that someone is your friend, to actually look at the people that are on that train and to realize you are not above them, you are next to them.

[Charles Holmes]

And that was the core of the

[Justin]

thing that I was like, oh, okay. That's like. That is a sentiment that, like, I

[Charles Holmes]

strive every day to Go toward.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. All right, well, thanks for indulging me with that.

[Charles Holmes]

No, I did. I enjoyed the reading experience. It was a very quick read, which I love. I enjoyed myself.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. So, I mean, I wouldn't say it's like the greatest work, but in this exercise where I don't want to give you like a 600 page novel, I thought it was a good, good compromise, but. So I'm on my anime journey and it's your turn to assign me something anime. So do we have something selected?

[Justin]

We do. We're going to, like. We're going to the totemic works now because I realize you have never seen Akira. Akira is. It is like when I tell you it is. If I was making like a top 10 movie, personally for me, this is one of the movies that just changed my life. I think Akira, if you can read it as a. As a graphic novel or as a manga at any time. I read it in college. After watching the movie, it's a different experience. That is amazing. But for this work, Akira to me is the height of what anime can be in terms of building a fully fleshed out world. The cinematic heights of it, just how technically brilliant it is, how great the story is. So Akira is what I'm recommending now.

[Cole Kushna]

All right, that's okay. That's good. Because I've been wanting to see it. I do feel like it's not as bad as a Star wars, but I definitely have consumed a lot of Akira imagery just through cultural experience and being so prominent. And even a work like Kanye was really inspired by it. So I've tangentially aware of it, but I've just never sat down. So I'm very, very excited to do that. Justin. Are you. Do you. Have you seen Akira? Are you a fan?

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

I am very. I am in the same place that you started at in this journey, so. Okay, I, you know, I gotta. I gotta tap into at least some of this because, you know, I've been.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, watch. Watch Akira with me.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

Okay, let's watch Akira.

[Charles Holmes]

It will melt your heart. Not because it is. It is not a happy movie, but it'll melt your heart. You're like, oh, Charles, like, there are good anime out there.

[Justin (full name not given, possibly another Justin or a co-host)]

We're going to watch Akira before we watch Star wars. And Charles is going to watch Dog Tooth tonight.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. All right, see you guys next week.

[Justin]

All right, see you next week.