![Frank Ocean's 'Blonde' vs. SZA's 'Ctrl' | LAST SONG STANDING [E6] — Dissect cover](/_next/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmegaphone.imgix.net%2Fpodcasts%2F46110b12-8695-11f0-8d17-1303a428dd82%2Fimage%2F0f5c39daea28bad78cce2399e1b4084d.jpg%3Fixlib%3Drails-4.3.1%26max-w%3D3000%26max-h%3D3000%26fit%3Dcrop%26auto%3Dformat%2Ccompress&w=1920&q=75)
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- [00:04]
A
This episode is brought to you by the Home Depot. Labor Day Savings are happening right now at the Home Depot so you can get more out of your outdoor space this fall. The Home Depot has a wide selection of cordless outdoor power equipment that makes it easy to clear your lawn starting at just $79. You gotta love a power tool. Then why not make those colors pop with string lights and mums that bloom all season long? Shop Labor Day savings now through September 3rd, only at the Home Depot. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. If there's one thing I'm going to make sure I pack for my summer vacation, it's my Apple Card. I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including fuel for my car and booking places to stay. Plus, I don't have to worry about fees, including foreign transaction fees, which is perfect when I'm planning to travel abroad. To get an Apple card for your summer travels, apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness rates as of July 1, 2025. Terms and more@applecard.com.
- [01:21]
B
Welcome everyone, to Last Song Standing. I'm Cole Kushna.
- [01:23]
C
And I'm Charles Holmes. And in this fourth season of Last Song Standing Standing, Cole and I are debating our way through some of the best albums of the past 25 years in order to crown the greatest album of the 21st century, aka the last album standing.
- [01:39]
B
Last episode, Mad Villainy went against Klipse's Hell Hath no Fury. Luckily, Mad Villainy came out on top.
- [01:46]
C
Oh, Mad Villainy came out on top after some expert expert maneuvering from the Mad villain himself. But on today's episode, we've got two more classic albums going head to head. But first, Cole, how are we feeling about things? I'm about to list out the albums that we have. First episode, kanye is My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy came out on top. Second, Beyonce's Lemonade, followed by Eminem's Marshall Mathers lp, Daft Punk's Discovery. Mad Villainy. I'm feeling like really good about this list.
- [02:20]
B
Yeah, it's a very balanced list. Especially after the last two episodes. We got electronic represented. We got kind of, kind of the indie hip hop represented. And then after today's episode, I feel it's gonna be even more balanced. And then the penultimate episode is gonna be one for the ages, I think Gonna be here.
- [02:37]
C
Things have gotten divisive. Has this been our most divisive season in terms of just, like, our ability not to actually be able to pick a winner?
- [02:45]
B
Yeah. Justin is tired of being called in as the decider of everything.
- [02:50]
C
The fans are like, no matter which album we choose, I feel like the fans are mad. No matter.
- [02:54]
B
I know today's episode, though, I'm really looking forward to. So let's get into it. But first, why don't we read the rules?
- [03:02]
C
The premise, the rules, the structure. So can you go and tell the fans what is this grand experiment that we've been doing?
- [03:08]
B
Yeah. So remember, every episode, Charles and I each nominate one album that we think should be in contention for the 21st century's best. Each album gets its own half of the episode where we'll make a case for why it's one of the best albums of the last 25 years. Then, at the end of the episode, the two albums go head to head, and Charles and I will debate until we can agree on on one winner.
- [03:29]
C
And the winning album from each episode advances to the season finale, Royal Rumble. That's where Cole and I will face off one last time, eliminating albums one by one until we can crown the greatest album of the 21st century, aka the last album standing. Sorry, I don't know why I'm whispering that. I. I'm trying something. I don't actually think it's working, but. Cole, can you finally reveal what albums are we doing today?
- [03:52]
B
I'm going with one of my favorite current artists. I just saw her live on the grand national tour. I'm going with SZA's beautiful project control.
- [04:03]
C
I love SZA's control. I'm glad that you have this, but, you know, as we've been picking these albums, sometimes I'm like, hey, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo. You already got. You got your album left. We fought over this one. I'm going with one of my favorite albums of all time by one of my favorite artists of all time, Frank Ocean's Unimpeachable Perfect Blonde. Let you guys prophesy we gonna see the future first you gotta leave, leave, leave Take down some summertime give up just a night night night taking a lie Sorry I'm faded think I.
- [04:55]
B
You.
- [04:55]
C
Love me.
- [04:57]
B
I'm scared. This is a perfect pairing, though. I really like this pairing.
- [05:03]
C
Each episode we say this where it's like we really do kind of like beforehand. It's not just what will make the most entertaining episode, but always there's a narrative thread and Can I share to you the thread that I've actually kind of discovered about both these albums? Listening to them back and forth, reading up on them, doing a lot of research. Obviously, it's in the title of SZA's album, Control. But when I was reading the one interview that Frank gave for Blonde that he gave to Karamonica for the New York Times, there's this part where Monica writes that Frank Ocean is an artist that is so much about his control. And Blonde is an album. We will talk about the myth of the album, the def jam of it all, endless. But it was interesting to me that two of the most important albums of the 21st century come from a black queer man, and then a very unconventional R and B star in sza, a black woman. And both of them, emotionally, historically, financially, within the business, are wrestling with what does control mean for an R and B artist? What does it mean for a black person in the 21st century? And listening to the albums and how they feel like scrapbooks of a moment, I was like, oh, these. There's so much overlap to both these projects.
- [06:28]
B
Yeah. And for me to kind of continue that is, like, musically, I think they reflect a similar. A similar mentality in terms of, like, a lot this season, we've been talking about hip hop being the prominent genre of the century, but also electronic music, also heavily influencing pop music, and just on its own being, you know, this new category that you can dive really deep into. And I feel like both. Both Frank Ocean and SZA have incorporated elements of hip hop, of electronic music, of even rock music, and really synthesizing it into, like, where we call them, quote, unquote, R B artists. For whatever reason, they have been on the. In my mind, they're on the forefront of pushing. If you're going to categorize them in R and B, you need to acknowledge that they're expanding the genre and the constraints of what we typically have traditionally thought of as R and B gets expanded by Frank Ocean's Blonde gets expanded by Control. And I think, yeah, I mean, and even in the. Both of them not being kind of your classical singers in terms of like a Beyonce or even a Rihanna or a Whitney Houston, it's like, no, these are. They use their voices a little bit differently, which we'll go into when we get into the albums. But yeah, I mean, these. These. These albums coming out one year apart, they feel like companion albums in terms of two artists operating in similar worlds and doing similar things.
- [07:56]
C
And I think what's interesting, what we've been Talking about this entire season is if you think about Tyler, the creator's Igor, if you think about Beyonce's Lemonade, all of these diff. Like, I think black artists especially, where to me, this is the generation that is finally, almost has almost the attention span of, like, these are artists that for the first time, grew up with the Internet, and they grew up with so many influences at their fingertips. And that's always been true with any black music, but it's a little bit different. The ability to just type on your phone or type in your computer. Sza was talking about when she was making this album. You know, looking at the Billboard Hot 100, 1950s and 60s and pulling from. From this, obviously the Beach Boys influence or the Beatles influence on Blonde. What I find so interesting is that, like, sonically, visually, so many of the artists that we've talked about through this entire process this season are pushing against being in one box, in one genre. And to your point, I think it's something that even Tyler has been very, very vocal about, especially when he won the Grammy. It's just like we consider Tyler, the creator, a rapper, whether he's actually rapping or he's doing something radically different. Like on Igor. Same thing with Frank Ocean, where it's like, no, Blonde is an R and B album, but just call it Justin. Like, it's so many genres, it's so.
- [09:28]
B
Many things, which is like a reflection of. Not to be the millennial commenting on Gen Z, which is just kind of cringe inherently. But, I mean, in my mind, Gen Z has synthesized so many things in terms of, you know, music is always a reflection of culture. And in my mind, Gen Z is much more fluid in terms of, like, we were talking last episode about the clips and then bringing skateboarding and making that cool, where there was always this division between cultures. And I feel like those divisions have just opened up in a way over the past 20 years. And I think that's really reflected in the Gen Z generation, but also, like, in the music that they have now produced. And I think that's really reflected in a blonde and a control.
- [10:08]
C
It's so funny. Like, I feel so old saying this, but I'm like, oh, no, we don't really have arguments anymore about, like, hey, yo, I'm just into hip hop. Like, I don't know any kids who are just into.
- [10:18]
B
Which was like, in my childhood, that was like, you. You put your st. I'm a skater. I do this, this, and this, and I don't do any. You know what I mean? Which I just don't feel like it's even in.
- [10:27]
C
I was just like, there were certain artists where I'm like, no, no, no, these are the artists I love. And the artists you like are fucking whack. And that was your personality. And to your point, the two albums that we're talking about today are very much at the forefront of, like, oh, we're not having those conversations anymore. Those conversations are so wacky.
- [10:44]
B
Well, it's even interesting when, like, think about how one dimensional Marshall Mathers LP is compared to Igor. Yes, same with the blueprint. You know when all these older albums that we've been going back to from the earlier 2000s, like, they. They feel much more. I mean, they're all. They're masterpieces in their own right. But you can just see how the culture has shifted where it's like, you get to Blonde, you get to Igor, you get to control. And it's like those divisions are just obliterated in a way that you can hear them still in a blueprint in a Marshall Mathers lp.
- [11:14]
C
Yeah, I could not agree more. But with all of that out of the way, should I get into some light facts about blonde going blonde first?
- [11:24]
B
Beautiful.
- [11:24]
C
All right. Frank released his sophomore album on August 20, 2016. The 17 song project features production by Ocean Millet and Omos Keith with The feature from Andre 3000, along with a variety of other guest vocals that are not credited, at least in the song titles. The album only produced one single in Nike's, but it debuted at number one on the Billboard 200, selling 276, 000 copies in its first week. Blonde is now certified platinum, but its impact and influence on the industry looms so large upon its release, it was lauded by many publications as the best album of 2016. And when Pitchfork did its great greatest albums of the 2010s, it was at number one. And this is a very, very short and condensed part of what Frank Ocean wrote on Tumblr after he released it. But he said, quote, raf Simmons once told me it was cliche. My whole car obsession. Maybe it links to a deep subconscious straight boy fantasy. Consciously, though. I don't want straight. A little bent is good. I wrote a story in the middle. It's called Godspeed. It's basically a reimagined part of my boyhood boys do cry, but I don't think I shed a tear for a good chunk of my teenage years. It's surprisingly my favorite part of life so far. Surprising to me because the current phase is what I Was asking the Cosmos for when I was a kid. And I read that because I think the reason that Blond has persisted over the years. I think it's almost a decade now. Blond, which makes me feel fucking. I know it's crazy, but to me, it's still such a lush but complicated record that is. It's almost unexplainable, where it's like, there is a narrative to it and there's so many different layers to it. But so much of the album does function as, like, this tone poem of memories and childhood and him being this kid in New Orleans, Texas, all the way through to his adulthood. And that's why every single time I return to it at least once or twice a year, it's like I just pick up something new. Because it's just such an emotionally saturated record.
- [13:24]
B
Yeah. I mean, to me, it's a monolith in music history. I think time has already proven. Ten years later, we were still talking about it as if it came out yesterday. And I feel like it so rich and thematically and musically. But I don't know, in my mind, it's like, it's gonna go down as like a Pink. Pink Floyd, you know, it's gonna be. It's better to be one of those albums, and you're gonna see, like, Education.
- [13:49]
C
Of Lauryn Hill, Pink Floyd. Like, any. Like, I would put this up. People are gonna kill me when I say I put this up against any Beatles album.
- [13:56]
B
Yeah.
- [13:56]
C
Wonder just in terms of just, like, what it means.
- [13:59]
B
It's always weird to say this so close in the moment. We're still. I mean, 10 years is nothing historically, but, like, we can plant our flag. I think it's very safe to say this is. It's one of them ones.
- [14:10]
C
Yeah. Because we were talking before we got. Got on here because, like, we. We had a season. Last song Standing about Frank Ocean. We talked about this album a lot. You've talked about this on Dissect. It's so funny being like, what are the new takes of this outlay? It's just like. But we're gonna. I'm still gonna. I'm very excited because there are some surprises, like the categories that are coming up. There are some songs that, like, weirdly, I'm just like, oh, this became the most popular song now, right?
- [14:37]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [14:38]
C
But anyway, are we ready for trivia? I'm not gonna do well. This is one I did not prep for because I'm just like. I've read about Blonde so much.
- [14:48]
B
Right.
- [14:49]
C
I forgot so much, but yay.
- [14:50]
B
All right, so let's recap the rules of trivia. Now it's getting down to the wire in terms of our season long contest. But this is a segment where Charles and I attempted to stump each other with little known facts about the album. Every correct answer is one point, and whoever has the most total points at the end of the season wins a mystery prize selected by our producer, Justin. Justin, do you want to give us any more hints as we're nearing the end of the season about the prizes that we might obtain? So anything you can tell us, we got last time you gave us the 1984 and 1989.
- [15:21]
C
No, 1982.
- [15:23]
B
1982 for Charles, 1989 for me. Is there anything else you can tell us without giving it away?
- [15:29]
C
I just. I think that it involves a lot of heartbreak for each of you personally that hopefully we're gonna. We're gonna be writing righting some of those wrongs that have been.
- [15:39]
B
Is it music related? One of them, yes, because they're personalized. Okay. Charles's.
- [15:46]
C
Charles is 100% music related.
- [15:48]
B
Okay. Yours.
- [15:49]
C
I have to squint and see how it's music related, but I can get there.
- [15:52]
B
Interesting.
- [15:52]
C
I'm excited.
- [15:53]
B
Yeah. Okay.
- [15:54]
C
Yeah. Hell yeah.
- [15:55]
B
All right. All right, I'll. I'll go. I'll. How many questions you have for me?
- [15:59]
C
I only could get two for you.
- [16:00]
B
Okay, two. Okay. I'll give you two. I'll give you a softball. All right. I'm feeling nice. An early version of the song Nights contains a feature that was ultimately left off the song. Who was the artist that was featured on Nights? I know you know this.
- [16:15]
C
I. I want to say Kanye. So close. Wait, wait. Not Kanye.
- [16:22]
B
Not Kanye. Kanye's writing credits on White Ferrari is probably what you're mixing.
- [16:27]
C
Oh, fuck. Fuck. Because I dog, I literally read this. Knights has was supposed to be featured. This is a softball. Why am I blanking?
- [16:39]
B
All right, time's up. I'm gonna play you the feature for those.
- [16:42]
C
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I know. Don't, don't, don't play it. Kendrick Lamar.
- [16:46]
B
Yeah.
- [16:47]
C
Yes. I knew. I knew it. Yes, I got confused with White Ferrari. But the Kendrick Lamar feature actually did leak. I have not listened to it since the leak.
- [16:55]
B
Okay, let's hear it for anyone that will just play a little snippet for anyone that hasn't heard it so far.
- [17:00]
C
DJ spinning Juvenile. We was only juvenile. Your cousin banging juvenile. Your momma them was in the now. I was from the other side. My neighborhood was twice as wild. My 38 was twice as loud Pulling out at Motorcraft Remember you from summer school? Some of your friends were ugly Some were cool some had 30 pairs of retro ass with scrunchy socks and baby hairs.
- [17:24]
B
He put effort into it. There's backing harmonies. It just doesn't really fit the vibe of the song to me.
- [17:29]
C
I don't hate it. Yeah, I'm glad that he's not on. Like, this isn't any Kendrick slander. Nice to me is so perfect. Where if they wanted to do an official remix, I'd be like, fine with it. But it's like, yeah, it's one of those things. Once you get the perfect version of it, you're just like, it doesn't need anything.
- [17:48]
B
It doesn't need anything. It also shows me everyone knows Kendrick's my favorite artist ever. But so many of the songs on Blonde only work with Frank Ocean over them or as good with Frank Ocean over them. Like, he's by Blonde. He knows exactly the production he sounds the best on. And not everyone can slot into the world, which is why the features on here aren't prominent features. It's more of just like, I'm using you as an instrument. I'm using you as an instrument, and you're fulfilling my vision rather than what Kendrick did, which what he does. Great. But it's like that was Kendrick Lamar on a Frank Ocean song where you can't actually name a feature on. Can you think of a feature on Blonde that feels like a feature?
- [18:31]
C
Like, even 3,000 is.
- [18:33]
B
It's a. But that's. It's symbolic and it's zone track. And it's like it has. Yeah.
- [18:38]
C
When Beyonce shows up, it's like, you forget Beyonce's on Pink and White.
- [18:41]
B
Right?
- [18:41]
C
She's like, pink and white.
- [18:42]
B
She's just in the background.
- [18:44]
C
Who you just in the back. Who does that also where you're just like, oh, I can get Beyonce on my album. Not only is she not going to. It's not going to say featuring Beyonce. You're big. Like, if you're not catching it, you're just like, you rem.
- [18:54]
B
I actually forgot that tell right now. I forgot she's on Pink and White. Okay, question number two. A little bit harder. So the line, keep a place for me, I'll sleep between y'. All. It's nothing from Self Control. Was inspired by Frank Ocean's favorite song of all time. It kind of quotes it without directly quoting it. What is the song. What is Frank Ocean's favorite song of all time that he quotes on Self control. I'll give you a half point if you just get the artist, because I.
- [19:23]
C
I There is, and I don't think it's nights. There is one song that has a Paul and Lennon credit because it interpolates it, but that's not White Ferrari.
- [19:36]
B
Yeah, it's not that.
- [19:37]
C
Oh, fuck. What is it?
- [19:40]
B
So it is Princes when you were mine. The line that he quotes or alludes to is, I never was the kind to make a fuss when he was there. Sleeping in between the two of us. I know that you're going with another guy. I don't care because I love you. So keep a place for me. I'll sleep in between. Y' all so good. Good. All right. You did good, though.
- [20:10]
C
All right, give me one. This doesn't have to be for a point. You add the third one. I just want to see what it was.
- [20:15]
B
Okay. So throughout Blonde, Frank manipulates his voice with various effects, including a high pitched voice modulation on the beginning of Nikes and throughout the album. According to Frank himself, why did he manipulate his voice so much on the album?
- [20:30]
C
If I remember correctly, didn't he say something to the effect of a lot of times on a record, he's feeling various emot and he's feeling various ways. And manipulating his voice is a way for him to kind of like paint a collage of, like, you getting different experiences of, like, who Frank is and.
- [20:47]
B
Different, he says, different versions of himself within the same song. So, yeah, it's kind of like adolescence when his high pitched voice and he's singing about New Orleans or. Yeah, so he's playing with emotional states, but also, like, age, you know, different ages.
- [21:01]
C
And then there was also what came along. Like, there's a script of Blonde and there's a lot of characters. And I think that there is, like, a thematic element of when he's switching the voices and telling the story. Some of the voices are about his teenage life or his adolescent life. Some of it is very much like in the present of that moment. So. Yeah. Damn. That was actually a softball one.
- [21:25]
B
Yeah, that's why I didn't give it to you. Damn, I gave you one hard one, easy. So you got one point. And so we're now officially tied.
- [21:32]
C
Hell, yeah. Honestly, mine, I think mine actually are gonna be a little difficult. So get ready.
- [21:38]
B
Okay.
- [21:38]
C
But with that, Are we ready? Are we ready to get into the categories?
- [21:41]
B
Yeah, let's go. I'm very curious to see where you're going with this.
- [21:45]
C
All right. For each album this season, we have five categories. Biggest song, best song, worst song, best deep cut, and best moment. At the end of the episode. These five categories from each album will go head to head in order to determine which album wins the episode and earns a spot in the season finale. Royal rumble. Biggest surprise for me. Okay, for biggest song.
- [22:05]
B
It is a surprise. Yeah. Is if you're home just by streams.
- [22:08]
C
If you go by streams. I'm talking about. I went on YouTube. I went on Spotify. Pink and white. If the sky is pink and white if the ground is black and yellow it's the same way you showed me not my head, don't close my eyes halfway on a song in a weird way become the standout. I wouldn't say it's the standout record if you're like a Frank head in terms of, like, there are other songs, but in terms of just, like, streams. Pink and White. It was produced by Frank and Pharrell, backing vocals by Beyonce. It has 116 million views on YouTube and 1.8 billion on Spotify.
- [22:49]
B
When I saw 1.8 billion, I was floored.
- [22:52]
C
I was. I was like, what the fuck? It's not close. Like, I think there's Ivy.
- [22:56]
B
Ivy's the second closest.
- [22:58]
C
Ivy has point one.
- [23:01]
B
That's crazy, too.
- [23:02]
C
That's.
- [23:03]
B
For me, Pink and white makes sense because it is the most traditional song on the album, and so it can. It can playlist. It could. You know, it can function in a way that you can't just. Who's playing? Who's just plucking off, like, white Ferrari. You know what I mean? Like, so I get why. But just the number of 1.8 billion is crazy.
- [23:23]
C
But. And part of this is owed to the TikTok challenge where, remember when it was like, here's the thing. I don't use TikTok variables much, but even I remember it when it would be like, a boyfriend and girlfriend. One gives the hand, one gives the hand, and then you swap. Maybe we could show some shows on screen of what it is. But what I find so weird about this is that the Tik Tok challenge a lot of times was soundtracking very, like, lovely moments. And when you listen to Pink and White, it. It can. It can make you seem like it's a very simple love song. But actually, this is a very somber song about a childhood friend that Frank lost, which is. I'm just like. That's the weird thing about music where it's just like, oh. I had always internalized this as a very sad song, and now out in the world, it's not that at all.
- [24:19]
B
Well, yeah. Well, I don't know. Frank is so good at the. How do you even say it? Like, finding beauty in the tragedy, which is what I think this song is all about. You know, it's about the reality of life, living the conditions of the world, not being able to change the color of the sky, meaning you can't change the circumstances of your life so much. Or there's just inherent circumstances that you have to deal with and learning to find beauty and heartbreak and disappointment and kind of reflecting on your past and, like, just. Even the sad stuff, just accepting it as part of life and, like, finding that beauty in, like, in a past love or whatever it is. And so much of that is communicated in this song. And it's like. Yeah, to your point, though, it's like the chorus is, you showed me love, glory from above. Regard, my dear. It's all downhill from here. That last line where it's like, okay, is downhill mean, like, downhill? Like, things get worse from here because your childhood is so pure in adulthood, or is it down, like, on your bike, where it's like, you don't have to pedal and it's a breeze? Yeah, you can interpret it either way. And that's the duality of the song.
- [25:26]
C
Even verse two, in the wake of a hurricane Dark skin of a summer shade where I'm just. Like. A lot of people have inter. Like, have interpreted that as, like, Frank talking about Hurricane Katrina. So it's like, to your point, there's. The side of this is like finding beauty in. In the memories, in the natural world and the sunset and all this stuff. But to your point, like, it's all downhill from here. He's lost someone. One of my favorite lines from this actually comes from the outro. Remember life. Remember how it was. Climb trees. Michael Jackson. All ends here. Say what up to Matthew Toshub. Say what up to Danny. Say what up to life. Immortality. It does when I say it's like, somber. It's like. It's this nostalgic feeling of saying goodbye to a certain version of yourself in a certain world. And the quote that I read on Tumblr, it's like part of this album to me is like Frank getting everything that he finally wanted or envisioned for himself and it not being what it was cracked up to be. And then this chaotic time of his life, being a teenager, losing people, that'd actually be the moment that he's looking back on fondly and trying to recapture. And even in interviews, he said that part of him Getting this personal on this project was because he reunited with someone back home and it inspired him to get a little bit deeper and give more of himself. But it's like. Like I said, I thought this was gonna be like a couple other songs, and then when I did some digging, I was just like, damn. Pick Up White's a legitimate hit.
- [26:59]
B
Yeah, I know. It's. That's the thing, though. It's like. With a song like 1.8 billion streams, I'm like, my mom should know that song.
- [27:07]
C
Yes.
- [27:07]
B
But are we just in an age where that's just not true? You can have a song this big, yet you don't. I mean, I don't hear this out all that much. It's like, it's big, but it's. I don't know. It's so weird. Hits are just not the same as they used to be.
- [27:19]
C
I feel like hits are not the same. But what I will say about this project, specifically, while I don't hear it out that much, this, to me, is a classic example of how many people on a lonely drive night alone just got your heart broken. Whatever put on this album.
- [27:39]
B
Right.
- [27:39]
C
And it's not something that you share with your friends. It's like, this is an album where it's like, a lot of times when I was listening to it, it was at points in my life where it like, yeah, I'm not. This is an album I want to listen to with a bunch of people. I want to, like, be in my feelings. Or he like, I need to listen to wifeheart right now. And that's what's interesting because, like, I'm going to bring up a couple other songs off this album where I'm like, this is a 17 song project, and some of the biggest hits are on the second half of it.
- [28:06]
B
Yeah.
- [28:06]
C
Which is just fucking bonkers. But that was biggest song, best song to me was an easy choice. Nights. Phenomenal. I think it is easily the best of his career.
- [28:35]
B
What? Okay, go ahead. You're probably in the majority on the air. I have a. My best song is so clear, and it's not Nights.
- [28:46]
C
Before I get too deep into nights. What's your best song?
- [28:49]
B
Well, it could be a deep cut if you're smart about it, but it's self control. Come on.
- [28:55]
C
I love self control.
- [28:56]
B
Yeah, I know you do.
- [28:57]
C
And I'm gonna be honest. I might still do this under the rules that we have self that we have made. Would it be cheating if I pick self control for best deep cut?
- [29:11]
B
Well, if you do that, I'M gonna. I have a counter, so do what you want.
- [29:15]
C
I might pick self consistency. Cause I was just like, I was gonna come in here and ask you guys, I'm just like. Can Self Control be called a deep cut? Cause technically there is only one single. But Self Control is one of the.
- [29:24]
B
Biggest songs I've been doing. Like, overall streams of, like, if it's, like, if it's not the top four or five most streamed song on the album, then it could be considered a deep cut. It's. It's probably right there.
- [29:36]
C
Like, it is right there. I think it's in the top six.
- [29:39]
B
All right, let's talk about nights though.
- [29:40]
C
All right.
- [29:41]
B
Self control.
- [29:43]
C
Love what this does thematically where it's like, obviously we talked about it on our season. It splits the album in half. A 60 minute album at the 30 minute mark.
- [29:56]
B
The beat switch.
- [29:56]
C
Yeah, yeah, the beat switch. Obviously famous and. And you know me. I think we talked about this when we talked about this song. This is everything that I love in music. Something that like can start up beat, get you and get you in a groove, put you in a mindset, and as soon as you feel like you have a handle on the song, Rug pulls out. Yeah, Rug pulls out, switches, turns into something so majestic, so beautiful. A little heartbreaking. Nights is. I. I have. I sometimes watch the crowd when he performs this song and the energy and people are levitating. I like, why do. What is. I do want to know, like, why is nights. Sometimes it feels like you sleep on this song.
- [30:48]
B
I. I mean, no, I mean, it's probably like a top four or five song on the album for me. I. For whatever reason, I. But some people are just so fanatical, like you are about it. But like, for me, it's like, it's. It's. I'm more of like white Ferrari. Self control. I like the emotional stuff, you know, that Nights has that. But it's, you know, there's drum beats and it's not as like isolated as. As a white Ferrari or Self Control. But just to recap, like, I got it. I know I've. I've talked about this a lot. But just in case no one or anyone watching this doesn't truly understand the division of the album in half. I think it's so cool and I think it speaks to the level of depth. You know, there's a reason why we return to albums like this over and over and we just never get sick of them, is because there is so much depth thematically, musically. And Nights. The beat Switch and Nights marries the concept of the record with the music, which is something I love, something I talked about with Igor, where Igor's a loop and that's not just a cool little Easter egg. It actually reflects exactly what the album is talking about conceptually and thematically. And so for those that don't know, Blonde is not only divided into half and plays on this idea of duality which is the center of the record in terms of, like, its theme. The. The centerpiece of the record thematically is duality. And we see this. And I'm just going to list all the ways that he kind of iterates on this theme, on this motif of duality. We see that in the blonde spelling of blonde. So on some versions of the album cover, it's blonde with no E. And then there's one with blonde with the e. So in French, that is the difference between masculine and feminine. Those are the different spellings of blonde. And obviously that goes into bisexuality and all the stuff he's talking about there on the album. Also, many children have blonde hair that then turns darker when you age, which reflects another theme that is directly addressed on Nights. You know, Nights. One half of it is the pitch up voice talking about New Orleans and then the other half is regular voice. So he's playing with adolescence versus adulthood. That's reflected musically. You already alluded to the beat Switch and Nights divides the album perfectly in half. Two 30 minute halves to the second, which is just. How do you do that? I just. I'm always curious, like, how did he. He had to be manipulating things to make sure that that hit. And it's just. That's a mind fuck. Every time I try to think about how he actually pulled that off, it's actually wild. Both sides of the album have nine songs. So if you count one half of Nights being a song to itself, both halves have nine songs. So perfect split there again, night versus day, light versus dark, childhood versus adulthood. And something that people don't talk about a lot and should. Is that also within this division of beginning, middle and end and it being symmetrical with two perfectly 30 minute halves. Nike's the first song, Nights the middle song, centerpiece and Future Free for.
- [33:58]
C
What is it? For sure, Free.
- [34:00]
B
Damn, I'm getting too excited. Okay, that song, the very last song. Also both. Three of those songs are split in half. Both of them have two sides. Yeah. So it's like, how is he doing this?
- [34:14]
C
It's so good. And to your point about the duality of it, there's a photo I'm sorry that I'm blanking on the name of the photographer, that it's a very androgynous photo of this woman, seatbelt blonde hair. And Frank talks about it of like, what I find so special about this album and why I think it has lasted so much is like the duality that he's speaking of is everything you're talking about. But it's also important when you think about the history of rb. I think we kind of take for granted now that Frank Ocean was one of the first major R and B stars to come out. Esqueer, right?
- [34:56]
B
Yeah. So much so he had to write a letter, which is just.
- [34:59]
C
He had to write a letter. Before Channel Orange came out, there was like, as someone who was there in a fan at the time, this, the controversy surrounding that, how people treated him, how people in my life reacted to it. Because when you think of R and B especially, you think of something that is overtly like, not all R B is like this, but a lot of the most popular R and B is very overtly sexual. The dynamics are very, very rigid. Where it's like sexy, beautiful men with six pack abs. We're gonna talk about Voodoo and d'. Angelo. You're supposed to be a certain type of black man. And same thing when we talk about sza. You're supposed to be a very, very traditional type of black woman. And both of these records and Blonde, specifically, the duality of that feels born out of Frank Ocean being like, all right, if the shadow cast over Channel Orange is this letter and me coming out as a queer black musician, then Blonde almost has to be a record of me showing people that's not gonna be the thing that defines me, you know, and that's why I find it to be such a beaut record. And that to me gave so many artists that came after it. You know, Steve Lacy is coming out with an album where, like Steve, he's a contemporary, but like, when a album like Blonde comes out, we. We understand, like, it's like we don't need an explanation anymore. A lot of artists that come after their records were like, I know this is R B now. And that's why I find, I think Nights to Me is such a special song because it's. It truly, truly encapsulates what this record did. Not only for Frank, but for the genre.
- [36:44]
B
Yeah. All right, so where are we going next?
- [36:47]
C
All right, so worst song. This was super easy. Facebook story. Wait, wait, that counts as a song? Whoa. To me it's a track, but we've been leaving interludes off of the other records.
- [37:03]
B
He could do what he wants. Justin strategic disadvantage.
- [37:06]
C
But I. I felt bad because I need. Because there's no bad songs on this. There's no bad songs.
- [37:12]
B
I thought you would. I thought you were gonna pick pretty sweet.
- [37:16]
C
Which one?
- [37:16]
B
Pretty sweet?
- [37:18]
C
Yeah. I don't hate pretty sweet.
- [37:23]
B
You know, Okay. I thought. That's the one that I thought you.
- [37:25]
C
I more so wanted to do Facebook story because I've always been annoyed by this one where I'm just like. Even in the moment, I'm like, them. I get what this does. I get why it's on the album. I think not only is this a record about duality, as we're talking about, this is a record where Frank Ocean is coming up at a time where so much of our understanding of him did come through social media, did come through his Tumblr and Facebook story being about this guy who's telling the story about, why do I have to follow this woman on Facebook to prove that I love her? I'm right in front of her. Get all that. Even in the moment, I was just like, on second. Listen, this is gonna be annoying. I'm always gonna skip this track. I think it is just like, if we wanna put pretty sweet in here, we can. But Facebook story to me is just like. No, just. Just like. Can I ask you this? Does any part of you think that Facebook story helps pad out the runtime? So it does.
- [38:36]
B
Oh, actually nice theory.
- [38:38]
C
You know what I'm saying? So it does actually work perfectly. Interesting.
- [38:41]
B
Interesting. That is a great theory, Charles. I like that because it's one minute, eight seconds.
- [38:46]
C
This is a 60. This is a 60 song, eight second album. Yeah, I mean, 60. Yeah.
- [38:52]
B
60 minute. Yeah.
- [38:53]
C
Minutes, eight seconds.
- [38:54]
B
Interesting. I don't know.
- [38:56]
C
I don't think that's what it is. But I was just like, Facebook stories.
- [39:01]
B
I'm curious where you're going with Deep Cut because there is a ton of contenders.
- [39:06]
C
There are a ton of contenders. I will tell you the two that I wanted to pick between. One of them is for me to win this, and one of them is my heart. And I think that I would win with either of them in my heart. It's self control. Self control to me is easily like, if it's not nights. Self control can be the best song in this fucking album. And I did. Yeah. But if we're doing rules, we're just going off Spotify streams. It's pink and white at number one. Ivy is number two. Let's see White Ferrari is number three overnights.
- [39:45]
B
Wow.
- [39:46]
C
Yeah, wow. But White Ferrari, to me was the other. It was my other choice for deep.
- [39:51]
B
Cut now, even if it has almost.
- [39:53]
C
A billion streams, but not a single. And the 14th song.
- [40:00]
B
That's crazy.
- [40:01]
C
Of a 17 song. This tells you, like, that.
- [40:03]
B
That tells you how good this album is.
- [40:05]
C
That tells you how good this album is. White Ferrari to me is a top three to five record in terms of, like, narrative importance to the project. White Ferrari, there are 50 versions of. Of this song which tells you how much Frank, yeah. Wanted to really, really hone in on what it. On what it was doing.
- [40:45]
B
And what I love about that too, just to make a point on off of that is like, you can hear the. To me, you can hear the different versions in the actual finished product. Because when it goes from keyboard and then suddenly switches to guitar in the second half of it, and then the outro is totally different musically, but he's weaving it together so seamlessly, it's only until you, like, really are paying attention that you notice all these transitions. Like that, to me is like. Like. Yeah. To get all those different nuances and all those different iterations of the chord progression you're singing to it. That takes iteration after iteration and then finding the best kind of combination of those iterations and like. So when I hear there's 50 different versions of the song, it actually is not surprising to me because you can hear. You can hear it in the final product.
- [41:31]
C
And I think, to me, why Ferrari is a. Is a. A full circle moment from something like nostalgia Ultra, where it's like, on his debut mixtape, the first thing you see of this artist is the car. And on Blonde with that cover, the first thing that you see is his face. It is the first album that we get that features his face and White Ferrari, what he said on that same Tumblr letter. How much of my life has happened inside of a car? I wonder if the odds are that I'll die in one. We live in cars in some cities, commuting across space either for our livelihood or devouring fossil fuels for joy. It's close to as much time as we spend in our beds. More for some. And I think when we go back to that feeling of duality of him even talking about, like, being. Being queer artist. But the symbolism of a Ferrari being. That's hip hop. That is masculinity. That is everything. When you're a kid, the car represents so much of proving your masculinity to the world, your money, your flaunting. But the song is not that. The song is this time traveling odyssey of just emotion. And he's talked about it in interviews, being like. And I think this is the best. This is the best distillation of what he talks about, when he talks about what's important to him, when he's crafting these songs, which is what is the emotion? Like, what is actually the motion that I'm trying to get to. And that's why when Beyonce's on the track, it's not important that you notice that it's Beyonce. It's important that he's using her as an instrument to get the exact type thing feeling that he wants from you.
- [43:11]
B
That's it. Well, we talked about. I talk about this a lot with Radiohead and I think Frank Ocean is just as good at it. And I think white Ferrari is a perfect example because it's about a car ride. At the end of this car ride, he's. He's not going to see this person anymore, right?
- [43:24]
C
Yeah.
- [43:24]
B
And so we've all had experiences like that. Maybe not exactly, but we know what that, that last time, that last conversation is with a person that we once loved. And it feels like that. It feels like that last car ride. It feels like a nighttime car ride and things, you know, And I love.
- [43:42]
C
It feels like la. And that's the other thing where it's like this song. I used to. I listened to this album when I was still in New York. I didn't have a car, I didn't have like that same experience to pull from. But now when I listen to this, it does remind me of a night la. Nobody else is on the road to your point. In a relationship, you know, this is probably the last time you're going to talk or see with this person. And even if you're okay with that, there is still the feeling of a chapter is ending. And this is just. This is such a universal experience. But for someone to locate that and then musically be able to translate it to an audience is such a skill. And my favorite line from this is, I'm sure we'll taller in another dimension. You say we're small and not worth the mention.
- [44:35]
B
Is poetry.
- [44:39]
C
What I was gonna say, which is like, the reason that we celebrate Frank Ocean so much is that we'll talk about this with SZA as well, where it's like Frank Ocean and SZA to me, at any other time in R and B probably wouldn't have been stars. And that's not because they're not talented. It's because Usually R and B was so tied into entertainment where when you think of a Beyonce, she's not just singing at the highest level, she's dancing at the highest level. The videos are at the highest level. And for someone like Frank and sza, they were writers. Frank, like sza, worked heavily on SZA, worked heavily on Anti, and Frank was in the Def Jam Doldrums forever. Like, his credits are vast and wide. And to me, what's so interesting is that Blonde to me is actually a pivot point where it's like a lot of these singer songwriters, like a party next door or Jeremiah or whatever could be like, I don't need to dance. I don't need. The entertainment isn't at the forefront. The poetry, me being able to, like, translate an emotion to you is just as important as the feeling of sex or the feeling of loss or the heartbreak. So I think it might be cheating to pick White Ferrari, but this, to me, is actually the epitome of, like, when a deep cut become so beloved, it just becomes a regular song, right?
- [46:05]
B
Yeah. Songs like this usually don't have close to a billion streaks.
- [46:10]
C
It's crazy because I've never heard White Ferrari out.
- [46:14]
B
Oh, yeah. Like, yeah. And I just have to point out. And we'll play a clip of it. The climax of this song, the way that we're nearing the end of this discussion. So I just have to say the way that Frank Ocean develops songs is fucking virtuosic.
- [46:29]
C
Yeah.
- [46:30]
B
Self control being a great example of just single guitar, beautiful singing. If it ends with just that guitar part and Frank's beautiful singing, we're satisfied. Yet in the middle of that song, it takes a turn and it has one of my favorite musical moments of the 21st century, where the strings come in and it's like, fuck, this is so beautiful. How can you ever top it? And then Frank comes back in with the ah, ah, ah. No, you gotta leave. You're just like, where do. This was a guitar song like, 30 seconds ago. How do we end?
- [47:00]
C
That's my favorite song. That's my favorite part on Dude. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
- [47:05]
B
Hold on. But. Okay, but do I.
- [47:07]
C
Do I switch to self control?
- [47:08]
B
But hold on. He does, I think, almost as powerful. Maybe just a little step below in White Ferrari, where it is this meditative, very kind of ambient song. But then it switches and he has that in this line. Takes it to just another level where you're like, we were just in a. An idling car vibing out, you know, 30 seconds ago. How do we reach this pinnacle. Beautiful. Like, it's just like the way he stitches everything together. Multiple songs have this quality where it's like, how do we get here? This. What is the most gorgeous thing I've ever heard in my life yet. Yet the setup to it was like a magic trick. Like, you know what I mean? And it's like, we need those, like, again, this is why we return to albums like Blonde, because when you just have a typical verse, chorus, predictable structure, you need the magic surprise moments to keep us returning for our brains to be like, I haven't figured this thing out yet. There's still more to extract from this album where it's like, in a typical pop song or whatever, it's like. Like, you kind of get it on the first or second listen, you know? And it's like, I. I don't know. I just need to honor him as a songwriter and as a producer. We talk a lot about his voice and the emotion, but it's like, he is a phenomenal producer. His ear is just as talented as everyone we've been talking about this season, from a Madlip to a Kanye to, like, these guys that just have an ear for sounds and. And, you know, layering sounds together that normally don't work together. All Neptunes. And it's just like, every. This album just gives you literally everything you would want from music.
- [48:54]
C
I feel like now. But are you now you're making me overthink because now I'm like. I was like, yo, self control is actually what I want to pick for best deep cut. But I was like, can that be a deep cut? Because this. Self control was one of the most popular songs off this when it initially.
- [49:09]
B
But I'm looking at the streams, man. It's like, almost. I mean, you could almost say it's like, like, more than half the it.
- [49:16]
C
I'm doing self control now.
- [49:17]
B
Are you?
- [49:32]
C
I'm doing self control. I'm going to my heart. I wanted to honor people who really love white Ferrari, and I was just like, White Ferrari is actually the song that, like, when people talk to me about, like, blonde, they're just like, White Ferrari is actually, to me, weirdly, like, has become more rated than self control, which I actually thought would happen.
- [49:56]
B
Yeah, it seemed. It does seem to have switched. Just let me shut off Siegfried, too. I don't need to say much about it, but I want to just acknowledge it because I. That, to me, is my white Ferrari. Siegfried is so.
- [50:06]
C
Siegfried is yours.
- [50:08]
B
That's so beautiful. That song is so beautiful.
- [50:10]
C
I love Futura Free. Like I love. But here's the thing. I love Ivy as well. Here's the thing. Usually I'm against like when mad when it happened on Mad Villainy. Usually I'm against tracks that don't have the artist. It's just something solo. I love solo reprise with Andre 3000. I think it works so fucking.
- [50:31]
B
We even talk about Nike's.
- [50:32]
C
Nike's is so good. Nike's weirdly, has become underrated. It doesn't actually have that many streams when you.
- [50:40]
B
I know. It's as. Yeah. Especially as the first song.
- [50:42]
C
Man, this I love, man. We could be here all night.
- [50:44]
B
I know.
- [50:45]
C
Jesus.
- [50:45]
B
Over here's final answer, self control.
- [50:48]
C
Final answer is actually self control because I wanted self control on the board. But I feel like people would be so mad at us.
- [50:53]
B
We honored White Ferrari.
- [50:55]
C
I really wanted to really give White Ferrari some. But like self control is odd.
- [51:01]
B
Like just his voice on this song is just otherworldly and once again.
- [51:06]
C
And Frank Ocean to me, doesn't have the strongest voice as a singer. But when we talk about texture, when we talk about like he's such a good producer. Great producers know how to use their voice. They know how to use their instrument. And I think he knows when his voice will sound great pitched up. He knows when he just needs to be natural. He knows when all this song really needs is like a simple guitar and I can carry it. But not to belabor it. Biggest moment I think is super, super easy. It is. And it's like to describe what it was like for Endless to come out of nowhere as a surprise drop or.
- [51:45]
B
Acknowledge the two weeks live stream though to building up to end where we're like, what is he doing? He's like building a staircase.
- [51:52]
C
What the is he doing? He's building a staircase to nowhere. It was the weirdest thing ever. People were going nuts. Which was also crazy because we had only had one mixtape and one album to that point. And people were still locked in on the this on him learning the how to build the stairs. And then people were trying to find the person who. Who taught him because he had tweeted out that like, lol. Like I'm teaching.
- [52:17]
B
Right? You're right.
- [52:17]
C
Yeah. And. But then finally he releases Endless, which is. We didn't actually get the album. We just get this long stream that you have to listen to. And then two days later he's just like, actually, the real album is Blonde. Also actually, I'm getting out of my Def Jam Jill. He like goes in an inter in the Same Times interview, he reveals that he replaces management, his lawyer, his publicist. At this point, when I talk about how much control was important to Frank, this is someone who had been fucked over by the industry for years. Def Jam barely even knew that he was on the roster when he drops Nostalgia Ultra at that point, I think the trust with Def Jam had been broken forever. So he makes a very, very baller move where I'm like, I'm sure Frank Ocean had a lot of money at that point, but to have enough money to buy yourself out of the deal.
- [53:09]
B
Well, I don't, I don't think. I think he only had a two album contract. So the Endless fulfilled the contract.
- [53:15]
C
No, but Endless, he had to give that to them. He had to allow them to distribute. Distribute that. Which is also he described as, quote, like a seven year chess match. For him to be like, all right, I'm giving you a good album, but it's not the album, but it's almost going to be promotion for my independent release.
- [53:34]
B
And he gets an advance from Apple because it was exclusive on Apple for like a couple, like a month or so. It was, it's, it's one of the best stories in music history, especially if you're an artist. Like, and now he's independent and he's getting everything from Blonde. We've talked, we just talked about how many streams it has. Like, he's set for life for life on this one album. Like, it's, it's, it's brilliant.
- [53:56]
C
It might sound quaint. This story might sound quaint. If you're like a younger listener, you weren't there. I will tell you, this felt seismic in the moment, for sure of Frank's caliber, but who was still relatively young at this point. I think at when this was happening, he was still in his early 30s, 30s, like 31, maybe 32. Around that for. For him to have. Or maybe he was even like 29, I think. Yeah, for him to have that wherewithal, that vision, that power. Most black artists don't, don't even get the opportunity. Like, we're still seeing like Pusha T and clips how to buy themselves. Right?
- [54:31]
B
Yeah.
- [54:32]
C
How did their death check? This is still. That's happening. And for him to be like, yeah, it's so important. And it means more to me that he owns Blonde. Like, yeah, not only did he buy his masters back, but the fact that he owns something as seismic as Blonde is what is the dream of any artist. So I did. Like, was there any other moment that I could have picked that wasn't this.
- [54:53]
B
I think of the, the festival he did. I forget what festival was with the headphones on.
- [54:58]
C
The headphones on. Brad Pitt that was going to be. But that to me was it's got.
- [55:03]
B
To be blonde release and like the whole. That was a moment. And music. That was a moment in music history. Legitimate. Yeah.
- [55:09]
C
All right, so those are my five categories. We're gonna take a little bit of a break and then when we get back, we're gonna get into scissors control. Discover Ralph's Club New York. The new fragrance by Ralph Lauren. With black currant, vanilla and sandalwood, this scent embodies the sensuality and confidence of Usher. Like the city that never sleeps, this masculine Fragrance lasts for 12 hours. Ralph's Club New York, Ralph Lauren. Shop now@macy's.com.
- [55:40]
A
This episode is brought to you by Prime. Prime. Delivery is fast. How fast are we talking? We're talking a cooler for your snacks, a folding chair, a Bluetooth speaker, and a six pack of your favorite seltzer delivered by tomorrow. Fast. Oh, yeah. Extra napkins, last minute guac bowls, backup phone chargers, even a replacement ring remote. Fast. I feel like I've ordered all of those things. We're talking everything you need for game day. Fast, fast. Free delivery. It's on prime.
- [56:10]
C
Discover Ralph's Club New York. The new fragrance by Ralph Lauren. With black currant, vanilla and sandalwood, this scent embodies the sensuality and confidence of Usher. Like the city that never sleeps, this masculine Fragrance lasts for 12 hours. Ralph's Club New York, Ralph Lauren. Shop now@macy's.com. yo. All right, we're back. We just went through Frank Ocean's perfect, perfect album, blonde. Now it's time to. Time to dive deep into another perfect album.
- [56:43]
B
This, yeah, this album is incredible. Yes, I really had. I had a blast returning to it. I suddenly I do put on somewhat regularly. Let me give you the album facts and we'll go into or some general discussion about it. It was released on June 9, 2017, on which I think is important to acknowledge. The album produced five singles. Drew Barrymore, Love Galore, the Weeknd, Broken Clocks, and Garden, all of which are now certified at least double platinum or higher. Debuted at number three on the Billboard 200 chart, selling 60,000 copies in its first week. Yet it has not left the Billboard 200 since its release. It's now spent a total of 426 weeks on the chart. It has garnered, you know, extensive critical acclaim, nominated for five Grammy awards, secured the top spot on numerous year end Lists including number one by the New York Times or not Sorry by the Time magazine, Vice and Noisy. Much like a lot of the albums we've been discussing, it's a little bit of a slow burn control versus some of the bigger albums like a Marshall Mathers or something. This is obviously SZA's debut project. So as we now recognize it as a kind of a modern classic in the moment, you know, it was a little bit of a slow build. And where I wanted to start the conversation with SZA was something I'm going to try to do throughout our conversation about her is highlight her musicality because she is very adamant about not liking the R and B label that's placed on her a lot of the times. I'll just start with a quote that she said. Said a couple quotes. She said, I spent too much time growing up on as much image and heap and listening to Comfort Eagle by Cake for people to call me the queen of R B. Why can't I just be queen, period? Another quote related saying, I'm so tired of being pegged as an R and B artist. I feel like that's super disrespectful because people are just like, oh, because you're black, this is what you have to be like put in a box. And I hate that. And when I was doing some research for this episode and like learning a little bit more about her upbringing and her early influen musically. Let me read them for you. And it's going to make a lot of sense when we start to talk about the sound of SZA and the way that she's able to synthesize all these different influences in her music. So her mother was a huge fan of R and B and church gospel. Her father was a huge jazz fan, so exposed her to Miles Davis, Billie Holiday, Ella Fitz, Ella Fitzgerald and her siblings. Introduced her to hip hop, people like Tupac. And so you can see right there the blueprint for SZA sound. A little bit of hip hop, a little bit of jazz, a little bit of R B, a little bit of church gospel. And she cites herself influences being Ella Fitzgerald, Lauryn Hill, Ashanti. And something I wanted to point out when I listen, and this is like my day one take about SZA is when I listen to her music and the way that she approaches vocal melodies, it always reminds me of a jazz singer. Like jazz scatting. You know what jazz scatting is, where it's like they use their voice as if they're playing the trumpet. They're not saying words but they're just improvising melodies in the moment. And the best jazz scatters just like the best jazz instrumentalist, like a trumpet player or something. Like, they just have a knack for melody. They can improvise melody over chord progressions, and, like, little micro hooks will kind of pop out of them. And that's kind of why they get away with. Without singing words or having a defined structure. And I want to actually play you Ella Fitzgerald because she named Ella Fitzgerald specifically as an influence. So I just want to play you Ella Fitzgerald scatting.
- [60:25]
C
Okay.
- [60:25]
B
And I want you to listen for. Yeah. You know, improvisatory, notey stuff. But then listen. When we listen, you're going to hear her. These little micro hooks come out. And to me, it's very indicative of. Of a Sizza who also doesn't usually typically go by your traditional song structures. She said she improvises a lot of her songs and kind of, you know, then looks back and see maybe here's a hook here or here's a verse here.
- [60:54]
C
She says she, like, records it as, like, one draft and then goes back and edits. And I'm just like. To your point, she's so good at, like, every single point of this song melodically. So adventurous. She's never like. I was listening to, like, a Kid Cudi song yesterday. I was like, this is so straightforward. Like, he's never really deviating on this song where it's like, sza. Just like.
- [61:19]
B
She's like. Yeah, she's all over the place melodically, but she's has such a natural gift for melody in terms of, like, memorable stuff that it's like you never. It never feels jumbled or busy or, like, chaotic. Chaotic. Because it's so catchy. The whole thing is catchy.
- [61:33]
C
Yeah.
- [61:33]
B
So let me just show you because I think hopefully this comparison makes sense. So here's the Ella Fitzgerald clip I wanted to play for you. That's a hook.
- [61:52]
C
Yeah.
- [61:54]
B
Like, you see how it emerges? Emerges. It just naturally emerges out of this busy thing. And then she goes higher and then like just that little two. Two bar phrase. Like that scissor to me. Like, yeah, I hear. Does this make sense?
- [62:07]
C
No, it makes perfect. Like, the reason I was, like, smiling is I was just like. That is like. I've read that Ella was like, an inspiration on her. But, like, hearing it, you're just like, oh, yeah, this makes so much fun. Making sense.
- [62:21]
B
Yeah. And so I wanted to start the conversation there because I do think we kind of pigeonhole R B in general. But as we touched on earlier, I think modern R B is like just so much more interesting musically to me because they have synthesized so much. It's just not. No longer in the same conversation we had about hip hop. It's like it's not as one dimensional as I remember it as a child. And we have artists that are really genre bending, like a Frank, like a sza. And I. I don't think. I think Frank is understood as being one of those artists where I think SZA's not yet. But when you listen to how diverse her palette of influences are, and even on like, sos, her doing a straight up pop punk song and feeling very at home in that genre, you know where she does, she can do a pop punk song and it doesn't really feel out of place to me. Does this. Is this making sense? I want to really make the case for her.
- [63:11]
C
It totally makes sense because I also wanted to situate SZA at this time because, you know, R and B is one of my favorite genres. And I think it's like it's a balancing act. Because I always want to tell people that, like, there's so much beauty in old R and B. Like it's some of my favorite music. But similarly, I think it has a similar trajectory of rock. They're as genres, they're very married. Where I think in the beginning of rock and roll, so much emphasis is placed on like the guitar and the instruments and these tenets of what it means to be a Roc rock star. And as you get through the 21st century, as we've been talking about, there's so many different artists, whether it's Daft Punk or Radio Ed or the Strokes or the Killers or all of these LCD sound system that are taking electronic and they're taking rock and they're mo. And like, old rock is still amazing. I think what's difficult when you talk about old R B is that what you have to understand is. And I've talked when I was at Rolling Stone with a lot of my colleagues about this is most genre labels at this point are very much used to hem in certain artists and prop up others. Where it's like when a white artist like a Christina Aguilera is doing R and B music, we call it pop. Why? Because there are so many corporations, whether it's, you know, MTV or the Billboard charts or whatever, that it's way easier to go to them, be like this white pop star. Even if everything about their influence is R and B, let's just call it pop. Because we can give them this budget and we can do this. Versus black artist does the same thing. Let's just call it R B. That's still happening at the Grammys, where a lot of rap artists especially are like, why is my album in the rap category? This sounds nothing like rap. But to your point, what I think SZA does is that at the, the dawn of, of the 21st century, or at least in the 2000 and tens especially, what we start getting is we have foundational artists like a Drake or Future that are giving their male counterparts a vibe and a way to sing and a way to approach this music that helps revive the genre. Super misogynistic, super bedroom produced, non classically trained, non church trained singers. So what Drake ends up doing is like, I'm not selling you on how good my voice sounds. I'm selling you on being able to connect with you emotionally. Marvin's Room is a perfect example. Best I ever had example are of songs that are so relatable. We don't need Drake to sell us on the vocals. We need to sell. He needs to sell us on the feeling. What I think SZA is able to do do is something similar, but for women where a lot of these songs, what she's at least doing narratively in terms of R B is I'm not Beyonce. Beyonce drops lemonade in the aftermath of everything that happened in the cheating scandal of Jay Z. Right? So much of that is a virtuosic album of this artist who was so good at singing and so good at song structure and is so good at the visuals that as the top of their craft, everything is going to be perfect. And in that, Beyonce almost has to be this perfect version of a Black woman where SZA's control is messy, where it's like, there is. There's so many lyrics. And I'll read some of them when we get to the music that are about SZA being like, oh, you gonna cheat on me, motherfucker? I'm gonna show you what I can do. It's like, hey, don't like. So many R and B songs are about like, the boy is mine, this boy is mine. This boy is mine. No, this boy is all of ours. He's for the streets. He's for everybody. And when I was living in New York at this time, SZA gave so many black women I knew, my sisters, my cousins, my colleagues, my friends. She was saying shit in a certain way that gave them a voice of being like, oh, I don't. I don't have to be Beyonce, I don't have to be Rihanna. I could be as complex and as messy and as nuanced and is angry and is emotional. Like, there's so many emotions on this album. And that's why, going back to it, I was just like, oh, this was. This was. This was one of them ones. Am I making sense now?
- [67:36]
B
No, that was beautifully stated. That was. That's exactly. Yeah. Obviously I can't relate to music on that level, but I recognize that from a distance, you know, exactly what you articulated was beautiful.
- [67:47]
C
And if we're talking about the influence later of, like, you get so many them of other not just R and B artists, where it's like, hey, if you're a Taylor Swift head. When I put SZA in that Taylor Swift category, when we talk about people with just lyrically amazing pens, like Frank Ocean as well, where I'm just like, yeah, I get why she's just like, I'm not just an R and B artist because lyrically what she is doing on some of these records is so phenomenal. Like, you guys have to respect. Respect how good Scissors Ben is.
- [68:20]
B
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
- [68:21]
C
All right, we ready for some album trivia. I got two for you. I think you're gonna get them, but we'll see.
- [68:28]
B
Okay.
- [68:30]
C
In order to put her voice at the forefront of the records, SZA switched from a U87 microphone to one that Kendrick Lamar and Travis Scott use. What is the name of this microphone?
- [68:44]
B
Wow, that's a hard one, Charles.
- [68:46]
C
This is a hard one. Yeah. This didn't take that much digging. And I thought because it was a. It's exactly the one that Kendrick used. And she said in this interview that basically she wanted to do this because so much of her earlier mixtape music, which I remember, and this is very true. Heavy reverb voice, more hidden. She's not at the front, and she was just like this type of microphone that rappers use puts your in the mix, like, tends to put your voice right. Like, right there instead of the hiding.
- [69:18]
B
I'm just going to guess a. Sure.
- [69:19]
C
A C800.
- [69:21]
B
What's the brand?
- [69:23]
C
It didn't say to this one. It was a C800. I thought you'd fucking know.
- [69:28]
B
I mean, I'm not like a super tech guy. Let me see. Oh, Sony C8, C80 or C800?
- [69:34]
C
C800G.
- [69:37]
B
A Sony C800G. Okay. I like the question. That's a nice fact. I now know.
- [69:42]
C
All right, this one is easier.
- [69:43]
B
Okay.
- [69:45]
C
What 1993 cover reminds SZA of the beat for Love Galore. I'll give you a half point.
- [69:53]
B
1993 cover. Oh, hold on. The Muppets cover of the Beach Boys. Kokomo.
- [70:00]
C
Yes. How did you. Yes.
- [70:03]
B
Because I watched a video. I watched a video where she talked about that.
- [70:06]
C
Wait, can. Let's play. I'mma pull it up right now. Some of Kokomo. Cuz I was just like, what the are you talking about? Sza? And then when I played it, I was just like, oh, so let's get. I don't got YouTube, premium Spotify. Don't want to pay for that.
- [70:34]
B
I'll pull the Flor.
- [70:37]
C
Now can you play us a little bit of lure to see?
- [70:51]
B
Yeah, it's got the tropical vibe.
- [70:53]
C
It's got the vibe. We both got one on the board today.
- [70:57]
B
That means I'm still in the lead by one point. I believe I'll do there.
- [71:01]
C
I do have one more. Not for. Not for a point, but this is interesting. So when I was reading in the same Rolling Stone article, what person in her orbit influences to actually put her vocals more at the forefront of the mixes of this album? It is not a musician, but basically the story goes that there was someone in her life at this time tangentially, who basically wanted to hear some of this is his music, who didn't think she was shit. And when SZA heard her old music back, she's like, why can't I hear my voice? Why am I sewing in the background?
- [71:39]
B
Oh, interesting. I don't know the answer, but this is great.
- [71:42]
C
So one of the ex boyfriends who inspired a lot of this album, his boss at the time at his 9 to 5 job, knew that he was dating SZA. But SZA was not SZA at this point, her name, who hadn't come out yet. And the boss at this like office job was just like, if SZA's so hot, like, show me one of her songs. And I guess SZA was there as she listened and even she was like, oh, I don't think that this is the song that's gonna make me seem like I'm the shit. And that's what inspired her to get the new mic to ask Kendrick Lynn Travis, like two artists, that their voice is so much at the forefront of their music. And it just. What's funny about that too is SZA records kind of like a rapper does, which is essentially like she freestyles a lot of her songs, tries to find the emotion in it. And a lot of artists, whether it's Young Thug or HOV or whatever, they Do a lot of punch ins or punch, punch out after they've kind of like freestyled it all. So I was like, oh, that's fucking interesting.
- [72:37]
B
Yeah, it's such a cool. And once you hear it, for those that didn't know that little trivia, it's like once you know that, that you start to notice it in the song structures every. And you'll notice that, like, I'm going to point it out in a few songs where it's like, yeah, verse one and verse two don't follow the same melody. Usually in a song, verse one's melody, the. The lyrics change, but the melody is. Is the same. And yeah, a lot of times verse one, verse two will be different lengths. The hook, you think. You think there's a hook in the song, but it's actually not really a hook. And it's like, it's. It's so cool what she does. So let's get into the categories. I really want to start talking, like, pinpointing exact.
- [73:14]
C
All right, so biggest song.
- [73:15]
B
Biggest song. Okay, if we go by streams, it's technically Love Galore featuring Travis Scott. Okay, but does that feel like the big. We can talk about it. But does that feel like the biggest song to you? Because to me, in my mind, the weekend's the biggest song to me.
- [73:33]
C
All right, so this is what I actually was surprised about because I was comparing the numbers that, like, prepare. I was like, which one is he going to pick for biggest? This I remember hearing, like, I'm sick of hearing Love Galore. I remember hearing Love Galore a lot. Okay, so I think technically it's probably the biggest song. But to your point, the Weeknd is actually the one where it's like, when I go back to this record, I was like, oh, this is actually the center point of this. Yeah, this is when I'm talking to it, this is the weekend is the.
- [73:59]
B
Song that they're just.
- [74:00]
C
That came off. So it's like, it's up to you which one you think it is. But I. Technically, it's Love Galore, but in my heart, I'm like, no, the weekend is actually the most important.
- [74:08]
B
It feels like historically the Weeknd's gonna be the one from this album. Did you know this song? What the song samples?
- [74:30]
C
Is this the one that samples the Justin Timberlake?
- [74:32]
B
Yeah.
- [74:32]
C
Okay.
- [74:32]
B
You knew this. Okay. Okay. I didn't. I had no idea until this exercise. So let me just play you the chops for anyone that hasn't heard it, but it kind of blew my mind. So the the song from Future Sex love sounds from 2006. The song is Set the Mood. So here's the kind of chords that they pull from it. So that's. That's the chords. And so they do a very, like, Drake 40 thing where they take out all the kind of low end and high end, and they really just make it sound underwater also.
- [75:13]
C
That is one of my favorite albums of the 21st century as well. Future Sex Love sounds amazing.
- [75:17]
B
I like that album. And then here's. Here's. Here's the instrumental of the weekend so we can hear what they do with that sample. Super pitched up low in the mix. Underwater water. The groove is so good on.
- [75:41]
C
This is Everything I want bar be. When I. When I played this song in prep for this, I kept going back to. I was like, oh, I forgot how catchy this song.
- [75:51]
B
Yeah, even the snaps are. The. The snaps that we hear are from the Justin Timberlake song right here. So it's still kind of the same groove, you know? And even the. This bit, they. You can actually hear his voice in the beginning of the weekend right here, that mood. Right. You can hear that in the beginning of the song. So cool. But the way they embellish the production, like, they did a phenomenal job at building around that sample. That groove is just. It's so good.
- [76:32]
C
So good. But I will also say to me, the reason why this song has persisted is what I was talking about earlier, where it's like, the chorus is so iconic. Yeah, my man, My man is my man is your man her this her man too. Like, that feeling. Feeling like right now I' ma tell all y' all R B is very like. Is a very, very, like, has a long storied history. But a lot of the R B that I grew up with, like, I loved, like, Keisha Cole's debut album. And I think a lot of times when a lot of, like, the R B that I remember loving, whether it was Destiny's Child, whether it was Keyshia Cole, whether it was Brandy, whatever these artists, so many of the hits are about. Well, my man cheated. And I'm going to emotionally tell you about the feeling of what it was like, my man cheating Destiny Child's bills, bills, bills. I'mma tell you what it's like dating an ain't no scrub. Same thing. It is always the. The woman is being and rightfully so. Men are. Is just like. Like, okay, I'm tell you another story about how terrible this man is. And what I like about the Weeknd is what it does is it's like, it's SZA being like, I know that this man ain't shit either. I'm not even fighting. Like, she says something. So, like, she said, this is genius. Timeshare in a man is real as fuck. If we're all being honest, there's very few men that are just dating one woman. I think low key. The Internet makes it so difficult to be in one relationship because we're taking in so much information. There's always, always new, new, new, new, more, more, more. Having one person seems like a restriction, like a limitation. Everyone's used to being overstimulated. And to me, when we talk about why this is so important, why this is sold so well, she located a feeling that was happening at the. In the 21st century with Tinder and Bumble and Hinge and Instagram and a culture of we can date anybody, like, anybody. Men. If, like, if the men of the 90s weren't the men of the 2000s and 2010s took that to another level. And the weekend is such a cool record of like s of being like, don't worry, I don't even want y' all everybody sharing. I love this record.
- [79:02]
B
All right, so I'm gonna officially just. Let's. Let's pick the weekend. Let's pick the weekend. Historically, the legacy of this album, if we're gonna point to one song.
- [79:10]
C
So the Weeknd, to me is easily the best song in the album as well. So where were you going to go with best song?
- [79:16]
B
I, I. You could definitely make a case. But in my heart, best song, Broken Clocks.
- [79:34]
C
Don't eat broken Clocks.
- [79:37]
B
It has a cool backstory production wise, that I didn't really realize, especially if you know, that SZA and Mac Miller had a really early relationship before SZA blew up, before maybe she was even signed to tde. Her and Mac Miller collaborated together. Mac Miller was always big upping her, trying to inspire her, putting her on. She's on bloonerism. She, you know, and produced a couple of songs on her Epsilon Z. So big proponent of SZA before SZA was sza. And so that kind of gets honored in Broken Clocks. So Broken Clocks samples a song called west by Daniel Caesar and River Tyber. And it's the very intro of the song. It sounds like this. So pretty recognizable. They do some pitch shifting and. But it becomes the basis of the song. However, this River Tiber song is actually sampling a Mac Miller song. So here is the Mac Miller song that it samples. It's called ROS from Good Am 2015 produced by DJ Dahi.
- [80:52]
C
Yeah, you got your stained glass iris.
- [80:55]
B
Diamond behind your ey so I just love the fact that this Mac Miller song song ends up the sample in River Tiber and then it ends up the sample of one of SZ's best songs in Broken Clocks. I just find that I love that, you know me. I like that kind of symbology in terms of just like embedded in this song is you can kind of make the case is the relationship with Mac and sza. Lyrically, I love this is like a kind of a Frank Ocean ish song to me, where she's talking about, like, loving this guy, being super busy, having to go to work and she's grinding, trying to make money and just doesn't have time to prioritize. This man that loves her but ends up saying like, I still love you. It's all good circumstances in our life didn't align at this moment in time, but no hard feelings. I still have love for you. It's beautiful. And that to me, I love songs that like, aren't corny in terms of like, celebrating the beauty of life and relationships, even in tragedy. And this song, to me, like, the emotion of it captures that feeling exactly. You know, where she's saying, saying, all I got is these broken clocks I ain't got no time just burning daylight but still love, it's still love, it's still love Nothing but love for you Because I mean, to me, it's like we've all had those people in our lives at some point where it's like maybe you see a future with them, but so much more needs to connect and align in terms of a healthy relationship and things working out. And again, for me, this is another song that's like, the hook isn't forced, you know, know it. It seems so effortless when you get to the hook. It's like you realize it's a hook, but it's just. It's also sounds like the verse and something she does a lot where, like, because of her stylistic choices melodically, where a lot of it is improvisatory, she's found a way to delineate, quote, unquote, the hook from the verse, which is she'll just simply elongate notes more than she does in the verse. So a lot of times her verses will be more into that skill. Scat, almost hip hop meets scat in terms of like going a lot of places really fast. And then this is a great example of a hook where she contrasts that more Kind of frenetic approach and impository approach and then just all of a sudden breaks into this gorgeous. These long melodic lines and. I don't know. I love this song. Do you like this song?
- [83:16]
C
I love this song and I'm glad that you picked it because it also talks to something. I've always thought of SZA as like the working girls R and B artist. And this is a. Like, this song is a perfect example of that. If you just take the. The first lyrics you. You hear. Run fast from my day job Running fast from the way it was Jump quick to a paycheck Running back to the strip club I'm never going back Never going back to your point, this is a layered song of like, yeah, she's talking about working a 9 to 5 and hustling and not having time for a guy, but she's using that to also describe this relationship and what's interesting her being if we talk about her work on like anti and how close in proximity. Something like Lemonade and all. All this stuff is happening. I think what's also interesting about this time that I remember when I was in New York is that black art itself is exploding. You have to think about what was happening at this time. We're getting. Getting something like insecure. We're getting Atlanta, getting Jordan Peele films. We're getting all of these film. All of these films, these TV shows, Beyonce's Lemonade, Rihanna's Anti. All of this, I think are all circling the same thing where black people are like, okay, we've had the Internet or the Internet has been in social media, have been a part of our lives for so long. We have all of these inspirations now. We're trying to tell these stories that. That don't necessarily revolve around the history of black people in this country and slavery and the civil rights movement and all of the pain and all of the anguish of that. A lot of this is becoming more interior of just like we live normal lives too. We like lynch films, we like horror films. We were inspired by the same thing that traditionally white people are. But also we're showing you about the humanity of something so simple. Of SZA being like, I'm not perfect. Look like Rihanna. I don't look like Beyonce. I have. I still remember having an ain't shit job and like having an ain't shit boyfriend and having this love for him. And this to me is just like so many more people. I'm not just talking about women. So many more people can relate to a sza who is giving you that realness of like, damn, I got two or three jobs. I. I'm juggling all of this. There's. There's this level of Sizza. Sizza, to me, reminds me of Drake in the way where I'm just like, shit, I can never be as cool as Jay Z. But, like, I could be as cool as Drake or Sizzle.
- [85:51]
B
I wouldn't be that hard.
- [85:53]
C
They're theater. They got theater kid energy, you know? And it's just like this, to me is like, when I listen to this song, I'm just like, this is why so many women in my life love Sizzles.
- [86:03]
B
Yeah. Okay, that makes it. Let's just go. We'll go back to War Song because this makes a perfect segue into my best date Deep cut, which is Garden. Say it like that.
- [86:26]
C
I am so happy. I was so afraid you weren't gonna pick this song. I was so. I was like, I'm gonna have to talk. I was just like, if he doesn't pick, guard, like, Garden to me speaks exactly to what I was just saying.
- [86:36]
B
Yeah, exactly. So obviously in the song she's talking about. About the kind of refrain of the song, aside from the chorus, is like her talking about being insecure about not having a big butt. I mean, she says it like three times, you know, But I think it ties in perfectly to what you're saying where it's like, I'm sure women think about. I mean, I can't speak to that, but I'm sure that's a thing. Body image and the pressure to fulfill this ideal woman a la. A Beyonce, where you can see how people could identify with a scissor a little bit. Your everyday kind of person would identify more with a scissor because she's being so vulnerable in this way.
- [87:13]
C
It's not only because I wanted to talk about Garden for that specific reason, because, like, hey, I've. You know, I'm a man. You know, the. The. The patriarchy.
- [87:22]
B
Yes.
- [87:24]
C
Have I been the exact person be like, she got a fat ass. Yes. I've asked that question a lot, I think. So. I. When I listen to stuff like sza, I feel you. And it's also. I remember when SZA was dropping the mixtapes, I was on the blogs listening. Cause he's like, oh, this is the first lady at tde, blah, blah, blah, whatever. And I think a big knock against SZA at the point. At that point is like, you have to think about where R and B for women at that point is. I'M just like the biggest women that I remember still in R and B were. And Rihanna was barely making R B at this point were Beyonce, Rihanna, and then lower on the rung, you had like women like Jeanne Aiko or whatever, but very traditionally conventionally attractive. And the thing that was a knock against is unfairly, unfairly was that she did look like closer to a real person for a long stretch. And it's like what she located. It's on something like Garden and on this album is that the all consuming power of Instagram coming at a time where bbl, culture, future, everything that's happening at Atlanta with the Migos, the Thug, there was a certain type of body type that every woman was being sold. Big lips, fat ass. If you want to be considered hot, that is what you need. And it was like, like always we could talk about like the 90s and the hair like the heroin she and like skinny and this and that. This isn't anything new. What the. The type of body type that women have to fit in, quote, unquote, fit in to be deemed attractive changes, right? But I think on a song like Garden and on an album like Control, the reason we can relate to this, not only just any type of person can relate to this is Instagram and social media fried our fucking minds. Fried our minds. And sza, to me was at the forefront of being like, hey, yo, like, sis, I get it. I feel the same way. And that's why I love Guardian. Like, I was like, oh, fuck. Justin picked it because I'm just like, yeah, we have to honor. Like, to me, this is honoring. Like, this isn't a song about social media, but it is about the anxieties that social media hoists upon you in a way where it's like Facebook stories trying to do the same thing. But because it's an interlude, I'm like, who gives? Where it's like with Guard, I'm just like, damn, sis, I'm part of the problem.
- [89:57]
B
Yeah, just one, one part of the verse. I wanted to. Because to your point about her pen, which we haven't really talked too much about in terms of just. Let's recite some lines. Because some of my favorite lyrical stuff come from this song where she says, can you remind me of my gravity? Ground me when I'm tumbling, spiraling, plummeting down to earth. You keep me down to earth Call me on my bullshit, lie to me me and say my booty getting bigger even if it ain't. And I love there's a poetry of you can you can kind of picture spiraling, tumbling, but also like the dichotomy of you keep me down to earth, call me on my. But the next line is lie to me and save my booty getting bigger. Even if it ain't like, to me, like, that's. It's two different ideas. Like, she wants the guy to be real, but also lie to her. But how real is that feeling? Like, how accurate is that emotion?
- [90:45]
C
Right, Bro, do you know how many times I've gotten in trouble for keeping it real? I lied you, Charles, man, You know how many women I lie to now? Fuck. I'm like, y' all don't want the truth? They like, no, tell me the truth. Tell me the truth. It's like, does this look good on me? I'm like, I've literally had this moment. Like, it happened. There was one, it kept happening. She's like, I want, like, I'm gonna put something on and you just gotta tell me if this outfit is it. If I look good and I remember, what if I go to Saw Watch. I was like, nah, he was not getting a fit off.
- [91:20]
B
Charles. Charles.
- [91:22]
C
What? She said she wanted his youth. Like, I'm at with, like, how's my butt look? I'm like medium sized today.
- [91:28]
B
Charles, why you want the.
- [91:30]
C
Do we want the. Here's the thing.
- [91:32]
B
I'm.
- [91:33]
C
I'm a skinny, light skinned black man. I'm not walking up to the. To these women asking, do I look like Michael B. Jordan? No, I don't. I got my personality. Gotta do a lot of the selling. It gotta do a lot of the selling. Okay? We all gotta keep it real. What? Justin is looking at me like, I am not shit.
- [91:52]
B
Cole, are we gonna clip these for social?
- [91:54]
C
Yeah. No, no, no. My personality cannot overcome.
- [92:01]
B
You're an acquired taste, Charles.
- [92:03]
C
That is the meanest thing you've ever said. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Am I acquired taste or am I an expensive taste? A lot of people don't get really. They don't understand the notes, they don't understand the flavors. They don't understand the type of level of cooking that it takes to get this type of entree.
- [92:23]
B
So it's like a slow burn. Like, you know, one of like a classic album.
- [92:28]
C
That's a way nicer place. Like, that is a way nicer way to say it. I'm the discovery of light skinned black men in la. Whereas just like, people like, it would, like, he's popular. He, like, people listen to him on a podcast, but, like, they don't respect him. The way they should. It's going to take Kanye remixing the. For y' all to understand what Charles was giving you.
- [92:49]
B
Okay, Worst song. Garden beautiful, though. I think we honored it enough. Yeah. Okay. So worst song. This was tough. Like, there really isn't an obvious worst song.
- [92:58]
C
To me, there's not any. To me, there wasn't any, like, bad songs on this.
- [93:02]
B
No, there's not. I mean, this is, to me, a no Skips album. It's one you just put on and play. But if I had to choose, choose. I'm. I'm gonna choose anything, which is still sick. This is still good song. But I'm forced to choose. Like, what else am I gonna choose? Like, there's really.
- [93:28]
C
That's. I was going through this and being like, what can you really choose? I feel also bad because some songs I want to shout out that are so, like, people are going to get mad that we didn't shout out Drew Barry more. I think Supermodel is. Is so good, perfect and beautiful. But I. I do agree with you. Anything, it's just anything doesn't provide anything. This album, it's just kind of there.
- [93:52]
B
So it's there. Yeah, it's the one. Like, it's funny. Like, we didn't acknowledge how many songs she wrote for this and kind of the anxiety she was feeling. Feeling.
- [93:59]
C
Yeah.
- [94:00]
B
She said she had, like, a hundred songs or something and that she would just keep tinkering and tinkering and tinkering. And it took like, TDE to take her hard drive away literally, in terms of, like, to stop her from.
- [94:11]
C
We also have to talk about that, which is, I think one of the other reasons that people love Sza. Sza don't give a shit. The amount of times her and who like Punch.
- [94:23]
B
Yeah.
- [94:24]
C
Punching like there is. You could just make a book of her. And punches tweets back and forth. Because punch almost acts like. I don't want to say almost. Just like an older brother or an uncle. Just like, that's Sza or he's always what you're gonna do like and to. I think a knock against tde. And half of me believes it and half of he does it is. I think a lot of times TDE sometimes feels a little too precious where they make people wait a very, very long time for the music. They have a certain way, business wise, that they like to not only roll out albums, but artists like, who is. But I think that's also the selling point of them. When it's Isaiah Rashad's time, everybody Was like. Was changing their profile pictures. Everybody, it's. It's Isaiah, Rashad, God's point. Like, this is we. When it's SZA's, it's Sizz. When it's Dochi, it's Dochi. But sometimes if you're a fan of SZA or you're in that, you're like, I'm ready to go now. This is ready now. But also I think if we've learned anything, people might be like, why did you pick Control and not sos? I go to so return to SOS more. It has a lot more fat like that. And that to me is like control does it. And that's when like someone is in the room being like, we gotta trim it down. Trim it down. Where sos? I'm just like, there was no one telling you to trim this shit down.
- [95:53]
B
And the thing with tde, because I get your point, I do think maybe that are. Maybe they're not perfect at executing that strategy, but the strategy is right. And historically it's like it took us this long to get to the footnote of this album. Having 100 song, it being delayed three years and all this back and forth between SZA and Punch and the, you know, all this kind of drama building up to. But historically, Control is a kind of a perfect album. And it's like, it's worth the wait. It's worth. Yeah, exactly. And it's like we kind of forget about all the things that happen. So I get it's. It's both frustrating, but it's also ends up being the right call. So I get the push and pull.
- [96:32]
C
Not only do I agree with that, if you look at all of the albums we've chosen, or the bulk of them, I'm talking about discovery, mad villainy, SZA, like SZA's being in contention. Frank Ocean, Lemonade. I'm like, there is something to be said about these artists that are not. Are always dropping bullshit just to drop bullshit. We would talk about Drake differently if he dropped less music.
- [97:00]
B
Yes.
- [97:00]
C
Like, he is a talented artist, but so many of his albums have become bullshit that were just like your ear turns off. And I think there are artists where it works. I think for a future, a young thug, them a little bit differently because part of their appeal is that they're so creative and they're a faucet where it's just like the albums aren't going to be perfect, but you're kind of just looking at the entire canvas. Where I think for sza, I don't Think SZA would be the type of star that she is if she was on a Drake type trajectory where she's dropping an or even a Taylor trajectory where she's dropping an album every year, every other year. SZ is special to me because when she drops every year, everybody's like, even me, like, I'm like, I'm not the hugest. Is a fan. When Scissor drops an album, I'm like, yeah, pause. Put on the scissor. She's that type of artist. Right. I don't care if it's A for me or not. I need to hear where she's at and what type of she's talking.
- [97:55]
B
Yeah. Okay, so best moment tough for you. Really tough. I. There really wasn't much to pull from, to be honest. So what I'm going to highlight, which is what I've been trying to highlight this whole conversation about situation, it is the musicality. And one example of. Of this musicality comes from her performance of the Weekend on Saturday Night Live.
- [98:24]
C
Oh, yeah. Say make you want to lose your say it'll take one day.
- [98:36]
B
Like Radiohead's appearance on SNL. You have to go on like dailymotion.com to find it. It's not on YouTube. But what I love about this, this is a very early. Her first national performance essentially on this kind of stage. And she chooses to remix the Weeknd. She has a full gospel choir behind her again, tying this full circle to her early influence of her mother gospel choir being a huge early influence that her mother gave. Gave her. She has a little trio of a flute, a clarinet and a trumpet. So we're getting, you know, some woodwinds and the trumpet of the jazz, then eventually electronic acoustic instruments and come to fill it out. But it starts out with just this, the gospel choir and this. This little trio of. Of woodwinds scoring the Weeknd. And she's singing beautifully over it. And it's like to me, that catches my attention because this is your debut on SNL and you're taking musical risks like this. Nine times out of 10, you just play the fucking beat and you sing over it, you know, and it's like, no. She took the time to rearrange the song, make it a special moment and showcase that musicality that I think we should be crediting her more for. So I just really in a category I didn't really have much of a chance. I just wanted to highlight something cool.
- [99:50]
C
That probably people just pick one thing where I was like, this technically can't be described as A moment. But what I want to honor Sza with as well is this is an album that I remember where the COVID the aesthetics of how it's shot has become so intrinsically tied into all of music now, where she's like, she kind of developed something and she like, from SZA's look to the forest and the technology and sitting there, whatever that. When we keep talking about album covers and artwork that people hang up in their dorm room, that's in Urban Outfitters, when you are in a store and they have like the fucking vinyls up, you're never surprised when control is right there, you know? And it's like that to me also where the R and B at this time does need guardrails. It does need people to be like, hey, yo, where are we going? And Sza to me was, there's a reason after this, Summer Walker, you know, comes out and just hits the fucking ground running, doing a lot of the same things in terms like, aesthetically and lyrically. And like, Summer Walker is her own artist, but I'm using her as a good example of a. Just like once it works, once an entire genre, and R B is a hard genre to sell, people molds around it. And I want to get like, that takes a genius. And I do think musically, aesthetically, as an artist, Siz is a fucking genius.
- [101:27]
B
Yeah. Beautiful. All right, are we ready for the Head of the Head? Let's take a little.
- [101:31]
C
Let's take a little bit break. And then when we get back, it's time for the most contentious part of this entire project.
- [101:38]
B
Yeah.
- [101:40]
C
All right, we're back. And it's time. Frank Ocean's Blonde versus Control. Like, I think how we should do this is getting the easy ones out of the way.
- [101:52]
B
Okay.
- [101:52]
C
So we can. We can spend time debating the really hard categories. I think the easiest category right now is Biggest Moment. I think arguably the endless getting out of the label deal, dropping Blonde, that whole saga, the building, the staircase, it's. It's such an iconic, like, I can't get.
- [102:14]
B
There's no pushback.
- [102:15]
C
I remember where I was like, I can. I can take. I can smell. I know what apartment I was in. I just. I will never forget. Yeah, though that, like, kind of two week span where Frank just took over everything.
- [102:25]
B
And I love that. It's like an artistic moment. You know me. Like, that's the fact that we remember him building a fucking staircase as the moment, you know, like, it's tied to this really weird abstract idea. Yeah. It's one of my favorite. It's one of the favorite, like, times to. That you actually live through that. I can probably tell my kids about one day when they discover Blonde and be like, let me tell you the. Let me contextualize this moment for you in history in the same way that my. My dad contextualized Sergeant Pepper to me from.
- [102:56]
C
It doesn't happen even with, like, great albums. Like, a lot of the albums that we pick, like, Lemonade is a perfect example. I remember where I was when it was on hbo. I watched this first on hbo. Like, I remember once again the apartment, how it looked, what time of day it was sitting down, prime time. All right, we're.
- [103:13]
B
We're.
- [103:14]
C
And you don't get that a lot. I think Kendrick also did that with gnx where it felt like, oh, this is the culmination of something. Everybody I know. Maybe this was also me being in LA or on the West Coast. Everyone I know is just like, new Kendrick. All right.
- [103:30]
B
The world stops. Yeah.
- [103:31]
C
All right. So I would say you easily, like, worst on Facebook story.
- [103:35]
B
Yeah. Okay.
- [103:36]
C
Bullshit. What do you get? Facebook story.
- [103:38]
B
Conceptually important.
- [103:40]
C
Conceptually. Facebook story works. But if anybody gets mad, you're just like, actually, Facebook story is important. You're full of like, it is. But if y' all get mad, like, it's. Come on.
- [103:49]
B
Okay, best. Where we want to go next.
- [103:51]
C
Deep cut, I think is easier. Easy.
- [103:53]
B
Deep cut. What do you pick?
- [103:55]
C
Self. Self control, bro. Dude, do you want to make. We could do this the side by side if we want.
- [104:00]
B
No.
- [104:01]
C
Guardian is great.
- [104:02]
B
Garden's fantastic. Self control is transcendent.
- [104:06]
C
He's a trans. And here's the thing.
- [104:09]
B
Arguably the best.
- [104:10]
C
Like, could Garden beat white Ferrari? Because I don't think it would have beat white Ferrari either.
- [104:15]
B
No, No.
- [104:16]
C
I don't think it could have beaten either of them.
- [104:17]
B
I don't think so. But self control. If this were a song battle for the 21st century, self control would be one that I would nominate. It might be my favorite song of the 21st century.
- [104:29]
C
Self control.
- [104:30]
B
Yeah, it's up there with, like, everything in its rap.
- [104:32]
C
I'm not mad at this at all.
- [104:33]
B
It's up, it's there. I revere that song that much, and so I'm not gonna pretend to put up a fight. Give it to Frank.
- [104:42]
C
Biggest song might be more difficult.
- [104:45]
B
Yeah. Okay, so you went.
- [104:47]
C
Can you give me the streams on Spotify of the weekend versus, well, Pink and White? Is it picking White? Yes.
- [104:55]
B
Pink and white has almost 2 billion streams, dude.
- [104:58]
C
How many does the weekend have?
- [105:00]
B
643. Million.
- [105:01]
C
Which is it?
- [105:02]
B
I mean, that's phenomenal.
- [105:04]
C
But. No, no, no, no. That's.
- [105:05]
B
I thought more. I know. Me too.
- [105:07]
C
How much does Love Galore have?
- [105:10]
B
986 million. Still, Frank's washing Frank, which is interesting.
- [105:17]
C
Because at this point in time, SZA, to me, is a bigger artist than Frank Ocean.
- [105:24]
B
Commercially, yes, commercially, I think.
- [105:27]
C
So if we're going like, revered.
- [105:29]
B
Revered.
- [105:30]
C
No, no, no, no, no. I'm not even talking about quality. Whatever. I'm talking about, like, French SZA is.
- [105:37]
B
Let's just pull it up. She is the. Okay, so SZA is number 16 in the world on Spotify, which I think. Let's look at Frank. And so Frank is only 125 in the world. So here would be my pushback, because we can look at the streams. Obviously, Pink and White is washing. I feel like, though, in the same conversation, I think the Weeknd has more of a cultural imprint in terms of a singular sense song from each of these albums. In terms of the. Exactly. The influence that you're talking about. I remember people talking about engaging with the Weeknd because it was a little bit salacious at the time and people trying to decode what it meant also what it reflects in terms of people seeing themselves in a scissa. Where you can say that about Frank Ocean's Blonde as a. As a piece of art, as a complete project. But is Pink and White the song song to be you want.
- [106:32]
C
You're gonna be surprised when I say this. I think the Weeknd is a better.
- [106:35]
B
Song than Pink and White.
- [106:35]
C
I also think it's a bigger song. Like, I like, if I'm gonna be honest, where I think, yes. Pink and White in terms of, like. I think we also have to correct a little bit for the TikTok of it all.
- [106:47]
B
Yeah.
- [106:48]
C
Where it's like, TikTok has done this to so many songs where a lot of times I'm just like, no, no, no, no. We kind of have to, like, grade this on a curve where I'm just. Just like the explosion of Tik Tok and, like, it's. Tik Tok isn't even what it was anymore in terms of, like, exploding songs. That was a certain point in time. It. It. It just. I actually think I would like you mad picking.
- [107:09]
B
Doesn't it feel like the legacy of the Weeknd is bigger than the legacy of the Cuz.
- [107:13]
C
Here's the thing. Even though Pink and White is the biggest song off Blonde, if we're talking to real Frank Ocean heads, music critics, whatever, no one is Pinking Pink and white as the they're going knights. Self control white Ferrari, Sig Freed. They will pick all of those before they pick. Pick.
- [107:28]
B
Are we off, Justin?
- [107:31]
C
So living in la, I feel like I hear pink and white on playlists and stores and coffee shops and I wonder. I don't know if that will get you the extra billion streams, but I do think that there is maybe some inflate, some playlist inflation going on here.
- [107:46]
B
Yes, I think so.
- [107:47]
C
I. Let's pick the weekend. Because I. I just. I also like that song more. Like I just. I know where it's bigger. I just like the weekend more.
- [107:55]
B
Like I do too now.
- [107:56]
C
Best song. It's easy.
- [107:58]
B
What are we going nights versus nights versus Broken Clocks. Come on, let's do the back to back.
- [108:04]
C
You don't want to do it back. Go. You don't want to do this back to back.
- [108:07]
B
Let's do the back to back. Hold on. Here's a bit of Broken Clocks. So good. Dude, it did great. This song emotionally gets me just like a Frank Ocean song in terms of. I feel that when she opens up into that chorus, like it just hits my soul.
- [108:31]
C
I agree. But this might be another coughing baby, atomic bomb type shit.
- [108:36]
B
Hey, I'm just, you know, let's gotta give Sza her due, so. Okay, let's play a little bit of no Nights. Okay. While we're here though, let me just point out what I've been trying to emphasize for both artists in terms of unpredictability where. Where songs are developed. How does this go from almost like a pop song? How does it go to that for. To this, where it makes sense that we get to something like this. Let's get to the beat switch. That is. That was one of the best musical moments of the 21st century.
- [109:43]
C
I remember.
- [109:44]
B
But how did we get there? You know what I'm saying though? Hold up.
- [109:47]
C
I heard this for the first time and I thought it was a different. Like I. Because I wasn't looking at the track list. I might have been driving and I'm like, what the fuck just happened? And then it's just like, yeah.
- [110:00]
B
How many times does he pull the rug out from you on all these like self control white Ferrari? Like, how does he get from A to B?
- [110:06]
C
It's a magical trick.
- [110:07]
B
It really is.
- [110:08]
C
And it's like. And this. You know me. I am so hard on a beat switch. I am the first person where it's like, it took me like Baby Keem. I love Baby Keem now. Like, I've Come around to Baby Keem. There was a moment in time, like, Baby Keem, I'm going to take the beat switch button away from you. Enough, enough. And to me, I've never thought that about Frank Ocean, because every single time he's done it narratively, thematically, musically, it always worked. It always makes so much sense. I could not imagine the song without the switch.
- [110:45]
B
Yeah, it's crazy to think that Frank Ocean would have that moment on self control. I isolated in this moment on nights two on the same album. Two of the best musical moments in the 21st century, unarguably, I think, are those two moments.
- [111:01]
C
I think Knights wins.
- [111:03]
B
Knights wins. Of course, Frank Ocean wins.
- [111:05]
C
But you put up a really good fight here's. I think so.
- [111:08]
B
I think SZA held her weight. I think sza.
- [111:10]
C
And it's. I also want to be very clear with the audience. I think when we were pairing these albums, I'm glad we did together, because they come out together. I think if we're talking about two monolithic R&B albums. Two. Two of the best crit, like critically acclaimed albums, great selling albums. It was almost impossible that these didn't go against each other.
- [111:36]
B
Yeah.
- [111:36]
C
But Blonde is just such a hard, like, next. Next episode. There is also an album that it's like. It's gonna like, you gotta. Yeah, there's almost. There were certain albums that we picked where it's like, what album would go against my beautiful dark twisted fate? Like, yeah, what album goes against Black?
- [111:53]
B
It's at that point, obviously, the thumbnail, like, you know, the winner, of course. But the conversation, I hope was interesting in terms of like, yeah, a Kanye Drake conversation. Even though we know the result beforehand, it makes sense if we're trying to tell the story of the 21st century. I think SZA to represent this faction of music in this quote unquote, R B area of. Of genre. Like, these are the two artists to make. Yeah. So congratulations, Blond. But I'm glad we gave SZA her props and her due.
- [112:26]
C
And with that, do we. Do we penultimate.
- [112:29]
B
We have one episode left before the finale.
- [112:31]
C
Yes. How are you? Wait, wait, wait. Now that we have Blonde, let's recap really quick. Okay, so on the board right now is my beautiful dark Twisted Fantasy Lemonade, Marshall Mathers LP Discovery, Mad Villainy Blonde.
- [112:45]
B
It's kind of pretty perfect. Are you okay in retrospect? Are you glad if the blueprint was on that list? It's not as balanced, it's not as accurate to the century. I think we.
- [112:55]
C
It's not as accurate to the century. I do think that the only thing, if we're being fully transparent, that I wanted to get more on here, but this is also just a process of just like hip hop and R and B and electronic music being so central where it's like, I would have liked to get a Fiona Apple project in here. You know, there's a few, like, artists, especially, like, women artists, black artists, Atlanta artists. There's a lot of, like, we couldn't even get through all of the ones we wanted to get to.
- [113:26]
B
Yeah.
- [113:28]
C
But, yeah, to me, this feels so representative of just like when you're arguing with people about what are the best albums they're usually gonna pick.
- [113:36]
B
Yeah.
- [113:37]
C
These ones.
- [113:38]
B
Yeah. Okay.
- [113:40]
C
Hell yeah.
- [113:40]
B
Episode. Do you want to teach? Tease it.
- [113:42]
C
All right. No, no, no.
- [113:43]
B
There's one. There's one artist.
- [113:44]
C
We already know what it is. Can we just be real? Because people have already guessed it.
- [113:48]
B
Okay.
- [113:49]
C
Next week. We broke a rule. This is Kendrick Vers. Kendrick. This is Good Kid Mad City versus the Pimpa Butterfly. And if we want to be fully transparent, the only album that we really thought could go against a Pimpa Butterfly.
- [114:07]
B
Is Good Kid or blonde or blonde. Or blonde.
- [114:10]
C
And we were just like, you know what? I need blonde on that final list. It. I. Here's the thing. I'm taking the Good Kid Mad City side. I actually think there might be an upset. If we're talking about the game, if we're talking about how the game is played. I don't.
- [114:24]
B
I think you're even underselling Good Kid, though. Good Kid's the one that's been on the charts for infin, like, since. You know what I mean?
- [114:31]
C
It's one of the best selling albums of the 21st century.
- [114:33]
B
I don't think it's obvious. I really don't think it could. I'm critically. I think prepare. I'm preparing that it could go either way.
- [114:41]
C
Same I'm. But I'm preparing a fight because there's in terms of just like, cultural moment. Best. Like, it's.
- [114:47]
B
Yeah.
- [114:48]
C
Deep cut. There's. I could see depend. And this is what I'm going to be very, very interested in. Best song, Deep cut.
- [114:56]
B
Yeah, Worse.
- [114:57]
C
Those are really going to be like. You have to put just in the right combination. All right. Hell yeah.
- [115:05]
B
See you next week.
- [115:05]
C
See you next week. All right, y'.
- [115:18]
B
All.
- [115:19]
C
I'm actually so excited to talk about this because there were a lot of albums that. That we were trying to sneak in here with cultural exchange. But I think both of us. We didn't even talk about it. It might have seemed planned. It was not. Voodoo was one that was, as I keep saying, like, looming large over the culture, over my childhood. And I was just like, that was the album that actually made so much sense, cultural exchange wise to pair with Frank Sza. Because I actually think it's a precursor to both of those albums in terms of how lauded it was. But also, if I'm gonna be honest, how much it. Like that, to me, was the inflection point of seeing what Voodoo did to Biangelo, especially the video, um, famously, the abs, everything. Maybe we can play it. He has talked very eloquently about how much the objectification of that really hurt him. And it's, like, so interesting to me where Blonde and Control are two albums that are talking about duality and objectification and what it means to be desired as a black person, as a black R and B star.
- [116:32]
B
And.
- [116:32]
C
And with all that setup being said, Voodoo, what did you think?
- [116:40]
B
Yeah, I haven't. Well, it's funny you bring up the music video, because so much of my memory of this album in the moment, you know, this is the year 2000. So I'm like, 16, 17.
- [116:50]
C
Yeah.
- [116:51]
B
So this is just not what my teenage brain was attuned to. And, like, they played, Whoa, whoa, whoa.
- [116:57]
C
What do you have against black. Black men with six packs? You know what I'm saying?
- [117:01]
B
Nothing. But it would. The song's like, nine minutes long. The video would come on every fucking hour on mtv. I'm just like, fuck this song. Fuck this artist.
- [117:09]
C
Like.
- [117:10]
B
But obviously, in retrospect, you start to understand as you age. And so. But it is an album that I've always felt. I understand the Revere. It gets the legacy of it. So I. I know multiple people that have, like, such an intimate and special relationship to this album that I'm not even going to pretend that I have anywhere near that relationship. But returning to it, I understand. I can understand. Well, it's interesting because it's such vibe music. Songs are long. There's just these kind of addictive loops. The musicianship is brilliant and almost in the same, like, a very opposite way of a Sza. He's very purposeful in his singing.
- [117:50]
C
Yes.
- [117:50]
B
He lets the music breathe a lot. A lot. It's not like he's all over the album. He kind of pick and choose as a spot over these brilliant addictive loops or just kind of grooves that they find in these songs. So returning to it, like, with older ears, I definitely. I definitely Understand its impact and its. Its reverence. Personally, if we're talking culture, cultural exchange, I just. There's a distance to the album because I didn't really absorb it in the moment. I don't have the nostalgia of it. I also grew up in a household that wasn't playing it. Where I think you. This maybe soundtracked your childhood a little bit. Right.
- [118:27]
C
Devil's Pie, Everything like all the different. When I'll tell you the track that I returned to that I really, really loved was returning to Spanish Joint. I love that record. But everything Playa Playa, Devil's Pie left and right. That whole first sweet. Every song in this album is so phenomenal. But what I wanted to point out that I think is interesting is that the way d' Angelo like such a gift to sing singer. But what's interesting to me is that Voodoo drops in 2000.
- [118:56]
B
Yeah.
- [118:59]
C
Still at the forefront of R and B was selling sensuality. The way he's singing. There is a feeling of sexiness. There is a feeling of you are evoking through the tone and the texture of your voice. The feeling of what it is to be passionately in love and all of this stuff. And when you listen to SZ and Frank, a lot of that sensuality to me is taken out where instead of trying to mirror the feeling of having sex or the feeling of being turned on, it's talking about almost the after effects of it. The after effects of just like, oh, we're all sharing a man. How does that make me feel? You know, I don't have a fat ass. Lie to me, Frank. Self control, like just sharing. Sharing a person. Like there's. It's so funny where I'm just like Voodoo to me is such a sensual record. And it's such. It reminds me of such a moment in my life of R B and where that comes from. And then comparing it to the two R&B album, just like, oh, we don't sing like that anymore, right? Yeah, you don't write like. And I think that maps onto the 21st century and kind of like we've kind of become puritans and we've. Our. The Internet has kind of distorted the way we think about sex. So the reason I love like driving to work to this again was like, oh, it wasn't all. It wasn't always like this. So I'm glad we got to pick this one.
- [120:28]
B
Next episode, we wanted. So next episode we're not going to do cultural exchange because next episode, the penultimate episode, we need to determine which album you chose from the cultural exchange of mine that's going to make it to the finale. And vice versa. Versa. So what's the one you're trying to what's the one you're trying to sell me the most? Which one do you want to see in there?
- [120:48]
C
I'm not going to sell you. I want you to go with your heart.
- [120:51]
B
Okay.
- [120:52]
C
I want you to go with your heart.
- [120:53]
B
Okay. Same with you.
- [120:54]
C
I don't. And I. I was going to pitch this maybe if we have time. Next episode, we reveal our short list of albums that were in consideration. Just so people know, like, we had talked about these. You know what? I'm.
- [121:08]
B
We will do that for the finale.
- [121:10]
C
Like. Like Lana Del Rey or some, like.
- [121:13]
B
Supreme clientele like Amy Winehouse. Yeah.
- [121:16]
C
Like, don't worry. People, like, why didn't this happen? Just, like, guys, we have.
- [121:20]
B
Yeah.
- [121:20]
C
We spent a lot of months.
- [121:22]
B
Yeah.
- [121:23]
C
Whittling this down. So maybe we just reveal a few of. Just like, this didn't make it, but there were conversations it could have made it.
- [121:29]
B
Yeah. Okay. Beautiful.
- [121:30]
C
Yo, thank you guys so much. And we'll see you next episode.