Jay-Z's The Blueprint vs. Beyonce's Lemonade | LAST SONG STANDING [E2]

Summary

Podcast Summary: Dissect - "Jay-Z's The Blueprint vs. Beyoncé's Lemonade | Last Song Standing [E2]"

Introduction and Episode Premise

In the second episode of the season titled "Jay-Z's The Blueprint vs. Beyoncé's Lemonade | Last Song Standing [E2]," hosts Cole Kushna and Charles Holmes engage in a spirited debate to determine which album stands as the greatest of the 21st century so far. The episode, released on August 5, 2025, dives deep into the cultural and musical significance of Beyoncé's Lemonade and Jay-Z's The Blueprint.

Album Nominations: Beyoncé's Lemonade vs. Jay-Z's The Blueprint

At the onset, Cole nominates Beyoncé's Lemonade as one of the most important and best projects of the past two decades. Charles counters with Jay-Z's The Blueprint, emphasizing its pivotal role in defining Jay-Z's career and its enduring impact on hip-hop.

Discussion of Jay-Z's The Blueprint

Release Context and Significance

Charles Holmes begins by highlighting that The Blueprint was released on September 11, 2001—a day overshadowed by global tragedy. Despite this, Jay-Z impressively sold 427,000 copies on its release day, underscoring the album's immediate impact ([07:10]). The album achieved three-times platinum certification, cementing Jay-Z's status as a pop and hip-hop mogul.

Personal Impact and Trivia

Charles shares a personal anecdote about remembering the events of 9/11 from his childhood perspective, emphasizing the album's release during tumultuous times ([08:45]). Cole adds his own memory of receiving a distressing call on 9/11, providing a human element to the album's backdrop ([09:44]).

Key Tracks: Izzo and Renegade

The hosts dissect key tracks from The Blueprint. Charles advocates for "Izzo," produced by Kanye West, noting its nostalgic value and lyrical depth ([19:51]). He highlights Jay-Z's verse as a testament to his business acumen and reflection on the early days of hip-hop.

Renegade, featuring Eminem, is also discussed. Despite its critical acclaim, Charles points out that it sold only gold compared to "Izzo's" platinum status ([28:43]). They debate the song's placement and its impact, with Charles ultimately favoring "Izzo" as the bigger hit.

Trivia Segment

During their trivia segment, Cole challenges Charles with questions about The Blueprint:

• Question 1: "What song features backing vocals by Slick Rick, Biz Markie, Q-Tip?"
  • Answer: "Girls, Girls, Girls, Part Two" ([15:43]).
• Question 2: "Kanye said the beat for 'Heart of the City' was originally intended for another big artist and was supposed to feature a big singer on the chorus. Who was the original artist and singer?"
  • Answer: DMX and Beanie Sigel ([17:21]).

Discussion of Beyoncé's Lemonade

Release Context and Cultural Impact

Cole introduces Lemonade, released on April 23, 2016, accompanied by a one-hour HBO film. The album sold 653,000 copies in its first week and received widespread critical acclaim, including nominations for nine Grammys and being named the greatest album of the 2010s by the Associated Press ([50:25]).

Artistic and Cultural Significance

Cole emphasizes how Lemonade transforms personal turmoil into a broader commentary on Black American experiences, weaving historical and cultural narratives into the album's storytelling ([57:11]). He describes it as a "Gesamtgunkunstwert," a total artwork where music, film, poetry, and visual elements coalesce into a unified artistic statement.

Key Tracks: Formation, Freedom, and Sandcastles

"Formation" is highlighted as the album's biggest song, symbolizing a call to Black women and representing an amalgamation of cultural identities ([63:38]). Cole argues that "Freedom" stands out for its deep lyrical content and powerful sampling of Alan Lomax's field recordings, creating a cathartic and historically grounded anthem ([73:14]).

Trivia Segment

In their trivia segment on Lemonade, Cole poses questions about the album's creation and inspirations:

• Question 1: "Do you remember the name of the hotel where the elevator kick incident took place?"
  • Answer: The Standard High Line in New York ([61:19]).
• Question 2: "Which famous rock star inspired the lyrics to Beyoncé's 'Hold Up'?"
  • Answer: Karen O of Yeah Yeah Yeahs ([61:45]).

Head-to-Head Debate: Beyoncé's Lemonade vs. Jay-Z's The Blueprint

As the episode progresses, Cole and Charles debate the merits of their nominated albums across various categories: Biggest Song, Best Song, Worst Song, Best Deep Cut, and Best Moment.

• Biggest Song: Cole leans towards "Izzo" from The Blueprint, citing its commercial success. Charles prefers "Formation" from Lemonade, arguing its cultural significance. Ultimately, they argue but agree that "Izzo" holds the edge in terms of being a bigger hit ([89:27]).

• Best Song: Cole argues that "Freedom" from Lemonade surpasses "Heart of the City" from The Blueprint due to its lyrical depth and historical samples. Charles counters that "Heart of the City" is more integral to Jay-Z's legacy and hip-hop history. They find it challenging to determine a clear winner but acknowledge the strengths of both tracks ([90:00]-[93:50]).

• Worst Song: Unanimously, both agree that "Girls, Girls, Girls" from The Blueprint is the weakest track due to its problematic lyrics and aging content ([96:35]-[99:46]).

• Best Deep Cut: Cole nominates "Sandcastles" from Lemonade for its emotional depth and vocal prowess. Charles struggles to identify a suitable deep cut from his album but eventually acknowledges "All Night" as a contender, though he concedes that it may not be the strongest choice ([97:34]-[108:02]).

• Best Moment: Charles cites Jay-Z's performance of "Takeover" at the 2001 Summer Jam, where he brought out Michael Jackson, as a pivotal hip-hop moment ([43:44]). Cole points to Beyoncé's HBO premiere of Lemonade and the album's surprise release as defining cultural milestones ([98:36]-[105:57]).

Final Verdict

After extensive debate, the hosts grapple with the complexities of comparing a conceptually rich, auteur-driven project like Lemonade with the commercially successful and foundational hip-hop album The Blueprint. While both albums hold significant places in the 21st-century music landscape, Cole ultimately asserts that Lemonade embodies a more profound artistic statement, integrating personal narrative with broader cultural themes. However, Charles maintains that The Blueprint's impact on Jay-Z's legacy and hip-hop cannot be understated.

Conclusion and Next Episode Preview

The episode concludes without a definitive winner, highlighting the strengths and unique contributions of both albums. The hosts tease the next episode, indicating a continuation of their quest to crown the greatest album of the century, promising more engaging debates and deep dives into influential music.

Notable Quotes:

• Cole Kushna on Lemonade: "Using her own hurt and transforming that to make this grand statement about her identity and her culture and her people" ([57:11]).
• Charles Holmes on The Blueprint: "This is the album that solidifies him as a pop artist in my mind... end of one Jay Z era and the beginning of his mogul pop star" ([07:55]).
• Cole on "Freedom": "The samples that you hear in Freedom is indicative of her being this auteur and using every single detail to enhance the storytelling in the message" ([73:14]).
• Charles on "Takeover": "Takeover easily won Jay Z the war... It's everything I love about Hov" ([43:44]).

This episode of Dissect offers a comprehensive analysis of two monumental albums, exploring their artistic depths, cultural contexts, and enduring legacies. Whether you're a fan of Beyoncé, Jay-Z, or both, this debate provides insightful perspectives on what makes these works stand out in the contemporary music scene.

Transcript

[Cole Kushna]

This episode is presented by so delicious dairy free. We listen to music to free our minds. But are you ready to dairy free your mind? This summer, discover so delicious dairy free frozen desserts. With so many next level flavors that are 100% dairy free and unbelievably creamy, your taste buds will do a double take as you figure out your ultimate flavor. Is it salted caramel cluster or chocolate cookies and cream? Cookie dough or coconut? Vanilla bean or even mint chip or the classic vanilla? Find [e-mail] welcome, everyone, to last Long Standing. I'm Cole Kushna.

[Charles Holmes]

And I'm Charles Holmes. And in this fourth season of Last Song Standing, Cole and I are debating our way through some of the best albums of the past 25 years in order to crown the greatest album of the 21st century so far. AKA the last album standing.

[Cole Kushna]

Last episode, Kanye west, my beautiful dark Twisted Fantasy battled Drake's Take care. And ultimately, twisted Fantasy came out on top.

[Charles Holmes]

But this episode, we're diving deep into some black love. But before we get there, Cole, I have to ask, how are you feeling? How are you feeling after last episode.

[Cole Kushna]

I'm feeling pretty good. I was proud of myself for making it through a Drake centered podcast without shitting on him too much. I was.

[Charles Holmes]

It was the most mature, I think so I've seen you is this. Honestly, that's how I felt for most of our Kendrick season. I'm just like. I'm like, oh, I got to. I got to be on my P's and Q's.

[Cole Kushna]

I've got to listen to some of the best, best music ever made. Yeah. Such torture.

[Charles Holmes]

But if we go on album for album, I'd still. I'd still take Drake albums over Kendrick.

[Cole Kushna]

We're off to a great start.

[Charles Holmes]

All right. But before we get too much, we already. People are producers in the back, especially Justin, are like, all right, you guys have talked about Kanye enough. The last episode for a lifetime. So do we want to get into some of. Some of the rules, the premise of this before we reveal to the audience.

[Cole Kushna]

What we're doing today? Yeah, let's do it.

[Charles Holmes]

All right. All right.

[Cole Kushna]

Remember, every episode, Charles and I each nominate one album we think should be in contention for the 21st century's best. Each album gets its own half of the episode where we'll make a case for why it's one of the best albums of the last 25 years. Then at the end of the episode, the two albums go head to head, and Charles and I will debate until we can agree on one winner, the.

[Charles Holmes]

Winning album from each episode advances to the season finale, Royal Rumble. That's where Cole and I will face off one last time, eliminating albums one by one until we can crown the greatest album of the 21st century, aka the last album standing. Now, Cole, can you reveal to the people which album you've picked for today?

[Cole Kushna]

I'm going with, I think. I think, definitively one of the most important and best projects of this of the past two decades. I'm going with Beyonce's Lemonade. What are you doing?

[Charles Holmes]

At first, the Fat Boys break up now every day I wake up Somebody got a problem with Chuck? I'm going with Jay Z's the motherfucking Blueprint, baby.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

H. Tuna is O V. Tuna is a for shizzle My nizzle used to dribble down in V.A. okay, okay, ladies, now let's get information. Okay, ladies, now let's get information. First the Fat Boys break up now every day I wake up Somebody got a problem with ho. Freedom, Freedom, where are you? Cause I need freedom, too. Cole, last episode, we briefly talked about why we paired Kanye and Drake together. I think it's probably obvious to the audience why we paired Jay Z and Beyonce. But wait, maybe what's less obvious is why we picked Lemonade and Blueprint as albums that could kind of go toe to toe.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, I mean, there's the obvious connection of them just being this power couple that kind of borders on American royalty at this point. And so I think as we're honoring the past two decades and a half, it's important to just critically look at them as not only musicians, but as just like, these kind of pop culture icons that we've kind of now just grown up with. They feel like they're a part of our lives and their careers, the trajectory of their careers have been so interesting that that's one element. I think what's interesting about the. Specifically about Blueprint with Lemonade is Lemonade. Obviously, the genesis of it is Jay Z's infidelity.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

And Blueprint, I think we see some of the problematic. The problematic versions of masculinity that ended up leading to that infidelity, which gets directly addressed in Lemonade in a way that I think shocked everyone when it came out in terms of, like, linking it back to the black experience in America and tying all these cultural threads, historic threads together in Lemonade, which I feel like are present in the Blueprint as well. I don't know. Does that make sense?

[Charles Holmes]

No, that makes perfect sense. And I think people are probably wondering because we had this conversation. We were like, well, is the album to pick from jay Z actually 444?

[Cole Kushna]

Because that's a little bit as a pairing. Yes. But.

[Charles Holmes]

But what I will actually, what I realized in rereading stuff that I had already read interviews, making of whatever. I'm like, the reason I think Blueprint actually makes sense is the Jay Z record, not only because I think it's just more popular in terms of just like, where Jay Z was at in his care. I think when Beyonce was making Lemonade, it was this inflection point of the Solange elevator incident happened to your point. At this point, Jay and Beyonce are the celebrities to beat. They are royalty. And that was kind of the first time we really had seen a chink in that armor. And I think similar for Blueprint, it's coming at this time where Jay's like, all right, who's the real king of New York? He's beefing with Nas. Who? Prodigy of Mobb Deep. And also he's coming off of a gun charge and then stabbing UN Rivera. So it is this sliding doors moment for Jay Z where it's a project where he's almost having to explain himself to the audience of like, no, this is why I am the man. This is why I run New York. This is why, like, all of that shit that everybody's talking is bullshit. Let me recenter the frame similar to what I feel like Beyonce does so beautifully on Lemonade.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, we'll talk about it when we get to Lemonade. But it does, to your point, like, the inflection point, I feel like this is like, we've seen what she's now done with this, the Renaissance Trilogy that seems to be kind of the culmination of all her artistic powers and probably end up being kind of her Magnus opus, the Renaissance Trilogy. But Lemonade, I feel like where the kind of the flip switched as an artist where she elevated her art into that higher art sphere. Right. And she's working with film, she's working with, incorporating poetry. And she's really creating this beautiful piece of art in the Lemonade film and also the Lemonade album. And. Well, we're burning too much pot on Lemonade. We'll get there. But I'm really excited about the pairing.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah, man.

[Cole Kushna]

We ready to go start with the Blueprint, right?

[Charles Holmes]

Hell, yeah. All right. Blueprint Hov's sixth studio album, which was released on September 11, 2001. The 13 song project features one collaboration and appearance by Eminem on Renegade Production on the album is mainly handled by Kanye West, Just Blaze, Bink, Track Masters, Timberland. The Blueprint spawned four singles. Izzo, Girls, Girls Girls, Jigga, that Nigga Song Cry. And I was actually surprised about this when I did the research. Obviously the blueprint drops on 9 11, but still Jay Z sold an impressive 427,000 copies. Which is crazy in terms of just like what was going on in the world. And Jay Z being the New York artist still being able to sell over 400,000 is.

[Cole Kushna]

That's absolutely nuts.

[Charles Holmes]

It is very, very nuts. And the project is three times platinum, which I think is actually like lower than I thought it would be in terms. But I guess it kind of just, it makes sense, you know. I think Jay Z, this is the album that solidifies him I think as a pop artist in my mind. But obviously he would go on to make Blueprint three is not my favorite, but he had run this town and all of these Watch the Throne. To me, Blueprint is actually the end of one Jay Z era and the beginning of kind of his like mogul pop star. I am the Michael Jordan of hip hop moment, right? Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

Do you have a 911 story? I'm just curious to know, were you too young to remember it?

[Charles Holmes]

No, I was actually like I was in, I want to say second or third grade and I remember not knowing what was going on but them all having us like lineup in school. And then like slowly but surely like parents just started showing up and taking their kids out. Taking their kids out. That when I got to my grandparents house just it was on loop the news every. And I just like I knew something bad at it happened. I'm like, why do we just keep watching the same building? Like right. Falling, whatever. What about you? Because you were 10 years older than me.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, I was, I think I was 18 at the time. I got a call, I was sleeping and I got a call from my aunt who I don't talk to really, you know, very infrequently. And she was just freaking out. She was like, it's the end of the world, they're hitting the Pentagon. Like she was like, I mean rightfully so. She was freaked the fuck out. And I just remember going to work. I worked at Togo's at the time. I just remember going to work and it's just like no one togos. Togos? Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

What's that?

[Cole Kushna]

You don't know togos? A sandwich. They do sandwiches? No. Justin, do you know Togos?

[Justin Sales]

I've never heard of togos.

[Charles Holmes]

Wait, what this is.

[Justin Sales]

Is this a Northern California thing?

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah, this is a Northern California thing. Like, what is this, like, a sub? Yeah, like a Jersey Mike's?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. You guys don't have togos? This is crazy. Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

You were slinging sandwiches. What type of sandwiches they slinging at Togos?

[Cole Kushna]

You want some pastrami? I got you. You want some Turkey? Avocado, number 24.

[Charles Holmes]

You still. I know.

[Cole Kushna]

I know all the numbers still.

[Charles Holmes]

What was Your favorite number?

[Cole Kushna]

24.

[Charles Holmes]

24, yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

Avocado, turkey. Yeah. And then the hack my teenage self hack was you crumple up the nacho cheese Doritos, and you crumple them up in the sandwich as the cheese. You get the crunch of the. Anyways, but, Justin, you have a 911 story, right?

[Charles Holmes]

Well, yeah.

[Justin Sales]

Yes. I just wanted to talk about. I mentioned before that I wanted to talk about 911 as it relates to Jay Z. Cole, did you have the record on 9 11?

[Cole Kushna]

No.

[Charles Holmes]

Okay.

[Justin Sales]

No, there was this tape and CD store up the street for me that sold everything, like, the night before it came out. So on September 10, 2001, I went. I grabbed a copy. Obviously, everything happens that day. I'm living in Providence, Rhode island, at this time. I run into a friend of mine downtown. He said, can you give me a ride home? And he was one of the smartest dudes I knew. He was like. He was in school. He went to Fordham, I think, and he was going for international affairs. And he's telling me who Ben Laden is, and he's breaking all this down. And then all of a sudden, he stops and goes, you got that blueprint?

[Charles Holmes]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Justin Sales]

He goes, you put on the takeover. And I learned who Osama bin Laden was. And then the next. Basically, the next words out of my friend's mouth were put on the takeover.

[Cole Kushna]

That's crazy.

[Charles Holmes]

Well, also, Justin, while we have you, the thing I want to talk about before we kind of get into the album is that Jay Z was at such an interesting time in his career because as a kid, I remember Izzo. Like, I remember being a kid watching, like, MTV and BT and being like, oh, what's, like, the sample did that thing as a kid that just kind of like. Yeah, Almost electrocutes you out of your seat. And I'd heard Jay Z before. I'd watch other Jay Z videos and, like, I. Like, my cousins were super into hov, but Izzo was actually like, the first moment where it, like, clicked for me. I was like, why do I like this song? Like, what is it about that? But this was talking about that inflection point for Jay Z. Justin, do you remember kind of where Jay Z was at in his career? Because I remember the story of him stabbing Oon for allegedly leaking the tape and blah, blah, blah, and kind of like destroying his. Potentially destroying what we would know, Jay Z's career. So what do you remember of Jay Z around that time?

[Justin Sales]

This album was kind of a coronation, right? Like this was. Or it was. At least that's the way he presented it. Because you got to remember this was post Biggie, post Tupac. Hip hop was getting a little. Like a lot of the southern rap was really starting to blow up, but there was kind of this power void at the top. You had people like dmx, you had Nas. Very. You know, obviously that plays a big part of the story about the blueprint. But Jay had like been kind of just ascending up and up the ladder, and he probably. He had had bigger hits than Izzo. Like, Big Pimpin predates this. Some of those Swiss Beats tracks predate this. Like Money Cash Hoes. Like, he has some massive songs. But this album in particular, I always felt was him trying to thread the needle between. Thread a needle of massive commercial success, critical success, and asserting his dominance over the rap game. And I always felt that this album was the album that he engineered to be. You know, I said this about the Kanye record that we discussed last episode, where this was engineered to be one of the best albums ever. I thought this was Jay's version of doing that. And, you know, I think in a lot of ways at the time, it felt very successful. Like, this was. This was the moment where he kind of did have all those things. People who hadn't necessarily paid Jay Z the critical respect that, you know, he was probably owed really paid attention. And it had a hit like Izzo. It did have that commercial success at the same time.

[Charles Holmes]

I mean, that is a perfect segue. Can I get into some of the categories?

[Cole Kushna]

Because, Izzo, you trying to sneak out of trivia.

[Charles Holmes]

Oh, shit, I forgot we have trivia, dawg. Trivia.

[Cole Kushna]

Just to recap what album trivia is, this is where you and I try to stump each other with little known facts about the album. Every correct answer is one point. And whoever has the most total points at the end of the season wins a mystery prize selected by producer Justin. All right, so last episode, you beat me. I was. I had zero points. You got one point.

[Charles Holmes]

So I actually was surprised. I thought you would know everything about my beautiful, dark, twisted fantasy, but I picked out some ones that were a little tricky.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, they're good. Okay, so I got two questions for you. What song features backing vocals by Slick Rick, Biz Markey, Q Tip? And According to a 2009 interview with Jay Z, an uncredited Michael Jackson feature. You can't look at your notes. Do this.

[Charles Holmes]

Get away from your notes. What are you doing? I can. Whoa. If I. These are my notes for this episode, and I literally have this written down here.

[Cole Kushna]

Justin, is this kosher?

[Justin Sales]

No, this is not kosher.

[Charles Holmes]

This is not. This is. It's Girls, Girls, Girls. I literally was about to. I had. This is going to be part of the things I was going to reveal to you. Okay, so that one was so easy.

[Cole Kushna]

It's actually technically incorrect. Girls, Girls, Girls, Part two. Charles.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, Justin. Justin, that is not fair. That is not. Come on. Come on.

[Cole Kushna]

I don't think you get a point, Justin.

[Charles Holmes]

I definitely get a point.

[Cole Kushna]

Justin. Does he get a point?

[Justin Sales]

Well, okay, wait a minute. So I actually need some clarification on this. Girls, Girls, Girls, Part two also has Slick Rick Bismarck.

[Cole Kushna]

That's what I read.

[Justin Sales]

Because they're on part one. Michael Jackson is the allegedly. The uncredited vocal appearance on part two. On the remix.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. Do you. So I had to do it. I isolated the vocals of Girls, Girls, Girls, Part two. Do you want to hear Michael Jackson's voice?

[Charles Holmes]

Yes, I would love. Crazy. Holler at you when I get up.

[Cole Kushna]

So, yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

This is why I love doing this. That's so sick.

[Cole Kushna]

All right, Justin. Does he get a point? Final answer.

[Justin Sales]

We're gonna give him a half point.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, let's go half.

[Charles Holmes]

I'll take a half point.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. Question number two. Kanye said the beat for Heart of the City was originally intended for another big artist and was supposed to feature a big singer on the chorus. Who was the original artist it was intended for, and who was the singer?

[Charles Holmes]

Singer Is R. Kelly.

[Cole Kushna]

Crazy. But. Yep. Correct.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes. But if you go back to the time, because I think Fiesta had come out before.

[Cole Kushna]

I can't remember.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah, maybe Fact check me. But I'm almost positive, like, R. Kelly was smoking at that time. Obviously, R. Kelly is a fucking monster. We do. Do not condone anything R. Kelly has done. But him and Jay worked very closely together. So. R. Kelly. Fuck. And I have. Can I get two guesses?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

I want to say Heart of the City. I want to say dmx.

[Cole Kushna]

Yes. What the hell, Charles?

[Charles Holmes]

Wow. Jesus Christ. You can only because you want to know which ones I had in contention.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

Dmx.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

Beanie.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

And then there was One other that I. That I'm blanking on, but dmx. And if it wasn't dmx, it was going to be Beanie. Was going to be the other one.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, Nice job, Charles. Get my ass kicked.

[Charles Holmes]

Here's the thing. I don't think you're going to get either of mine. That's how. That's how you do.

[Cole Kushna]

Make yours, like ridiculously hard on me. I try to cut you some slack. Like, what's realistic? Like, nah.

[Charles Holmes]

Cause you missed your dissect. I know you missed her. No. Hell no. But are we ready to get into breaking this album down?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Charles Holmes]

Main categories, we have five. We have biggest song, best song, worst song, best moment. And I forgot best Deep cut. Hell yes. So for biggest song, I thought that it was going to be easy. It was just going to be Izzo, straight, no debate. But you texted me earlier this morning and you're like, well, what about Renegade? And you. You revealed to me that Renegade actually has more streams on Spotify than Izzo does.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, like by a substantial margin too.

[Charles Holmes]

So.

[Cole Kushna]

But is that just the Eminem streaming effect is kind of.

[Charles Holmes]

I think it is, yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

Because in my mind, Izzo is like the obvious hit. Like, that's when I think of the blueprint. I think of that song first.

[Charles Holmes]

So I'm going to explain which I'm going to break down both and then I'm going to explain why I'm. Which one I'm going with. So Izzo, produced by Kanye, carried by Sample of the Jackson Fives, I Want yout Back. What I love actually about Izzo is that when we were talking about it, I think it was a song that. Because it's so tied to my childhood being in second or third grade when I was hearing it. Over the years, I've kind of. It's become lessened in my mind. Not that it's a good song, but almost that it's like I take it for granted.

[Cole Kushna]

It's pop.

[Charles Holmes]

It's pop.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

But then when I went back and listening to the second verse, I'd realized I'm like, oh, one of the most.

[Cole Kushna]

Iconic lines of all time is I'm.

[Charles Holmes]

Just gonna wrap the whole thing. Cause I just wanna. Maybe we can break it down together. Cause it was like I didn't realize how much I had loved and internalized the second verse. When he goes, I do this for my culture to let em know what a nigga look like when a nigga in a roaster show em how to move in a room Full of vultures industry shady it needs to be taken over Label owners hate me I'm raising the status quo up I'm overcharging niggas for what they did to the Cold Crush Pay us like you owe us for all the years that you owed us we can talk but money talks.

[Cole Kushna]

Or talk more bucks that second to last line, Pay us like you owe us for all the years that you owed us is fucking perfect.

[Charles Holmes]

It's even the lot. Like, I'm overcharging niggas for what they did to the Coal Crush. It is just when we talk about what makes Jay one of the best rappers ever, I think it's the economy of the lines. I think it's. If you think about how he's rapping on this, nothing that he's saying is just like, oh, my God, he's wowing me with just, like, wizardry or whatever. But when you focus down, especially on where Jay Z was at in his career, I do think that this was the time where Jay Z remembers the beginning of hip hop, and now he's right there at its ascendance. You know, this is someone who's gonna go on to lead Def Jam, to become someone who can actually have more over his career and over the careers of rappers and Kanye or whatever. And this line to me is actually like a skeleton key for him. I know I always say that on different episodes in terms of just, like, what was a moment for a rapper or a singer where you could see, like, what was coming. I think that this verse especially kind of points to the businessman era of Jay's career of just like, oh, I see what happened to all of the people I grew up listening to in hip hop. That's not happening to me.

[Cole Kushna]

Right.

[Charles Holmes]

Why do you like. I feel like this was a verse. You all also were just, like, unrealistic.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, yeah. Because you do take the song for granted, and it does feel so commercial appealing that you take some of these lyrics for granted, especially. So I was. I mean, I highlighted, like, stuff from, like, all three verses. I forgot about how great just the writing is. It's not double entendres or anything. But on verse three, he paints this portrait of his neighborhood. I was raised on the projects Roaches and rats Smokers out back Selling their mama sofa Lookouts on the corner Focused on the ave Ladies in the window Focused on the kinfolk Me under a lamppost why I got my hands closed Cracks in my palm Watching the long arm of the law like he's painting a port Like, I can visualize all these images and you get one image for every line. And it's just like this mosaic of his. Of his upbringing. And just. Just that one line. How, what, Why? I got my hand closed. Like, weird question cracks in my palm Watching the long arm of the law. Or even that's like, poetic. That is brilliant.

[Charles Holmes]

Or even the line, like, the poetry of. I've seen hoop dreams deflate. Like a true fiend's weight is just to me of, like, the two rappers that you can really think of in terms of, like, around this time where it's like, just poetry. I remember one of my cousins having the pock book. One of. I think it was called, like, the Rose that Grew out of Concrete or whatever. And I remember that was the first time where I was like, why are my cousins reading a book about, like, rap lyrics? And this to me, that third verse, to me reads like a poem in terms of, like, the way he's describing his come up, the way it felt, what it means to be a drug dealer. A lot of his drug dealing bars sometimes are very flashy. The best. This is. That to me, this is more. More so like, no, I'm painting you a visual picture of what it feels like growing up in Marcy projects at this time. Going down to Maryland, all this shit. It's. Oh, I love this.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. You said you didn't like the Kanye. The sample, the beat.

[Charles Holmes]

No, no, no, no, no. I like the sample.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

It's more so. All right, I'm gonna bring in Justin. Justin, am I crazy for saying that like, sometimes, especially in hip hop circles, people ding Kanye for how obvious the songs that he decides to pick are?

[Justin Sales]

I think a couple of things that aren't being considered when you're discussing the production of the song and how obvious the sample is. He did chop it up. It wasn't a straight loop.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. I recreated the sample if you guys want me to play, but continue.

[Justin Sales]

But the other thing is, this was not a time when soul samples were really prevalent. Kanye and just Blaze in this album really brought that back to the mainstream. And this was a single. So, of course, like, it makes sense that one of the most famous soul and R B songs of the 20th century is gonna get flipped for what the big single was on it. A lot of the rest of the stuff on this record is a lot more obscure. Like Bobby Bird, who gets flipped for Heart of the City.

[Cole Kushna]

Right?

[Justin Sales]

That's a lot more obscure.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, right.

[Justin Sales]

Like, I actually, you know, I was 18, 19 when the song Dropped it. Took me a couple listens to clock that. That was actually a Jackson 5.

[Cole Kushna]

That's what I'm saying. Like, I don't hear Jack. I don't hear Jackson 5 when I hear the sample.

[Justin Sales]

So you hear the little, like, ooh, like, at the end of the loop, at the end of the, you know, the chopped loop. But until then, like, it doesn't immediately clock that. That's. You hear it once you realize it, you can't unhear it. But at first, it's pretty. It's chopped up pretty well.

[Cole Kushna]

So here's the original. So when you hear it like that, it's pretty obvious, right? So what's interesting is that he slows it down. Kanye is known for the chipmunk soul speeding things up, but in this case, he slows it down, like, so. Still there. But here's the trops. It's super simple, but it really transforms the beat. So here's chop number one, that little piece. Chop number two is this. He repeats it. So then here's the full thing. Add some drums. So sick. It's so sick.

[Charles Holmes]

I take it back. This is amazing. I take it back.

[Cole Kushna]

Because he did, like, you only get two chords, so it's like, you don't hear the whole turnaround. So that's why it's not Obviously the Jackson 5, because you're only getting two chords. You don't hear the whole turnaround. That's so iconic from the original song. So it's simple, but it's like a lot of Kanye's early production, where he just has an ear like no one else. He's. Yeah, he can transform stuff in a way that just no one else was hearing. This is a great example and his breakout song as a producer.

[Charles Holmes]

So the other song, Renegade, produced by Eminem, Luis Reto. Originally, this track was Bad meets Evil, the group that Eminem had with frequent collaborator Royce the Five Nine. Now Renegade. We talked before this, and we were like, let's not burn tape. But this song, to me, is infamous because for years and years and years, we were like, m Gotche. M Gotche. M Gotche on Relisten in 2025. I don't think that's true. Like, as a kid, I remember being mesmerized by Eminem's verses and very, very impressed in a way where I was just like, no, this song is actually 50 50. I actually don't think either artist did that much better than the other. Like, when you were back then, 2001, who did you like on this song? More now. Who do you think? Like, what is your.

[Cole Kushna]

I liked M for sure, like, 100%. I liked M. When returning to it now it's clear that they're both. I think it's pretty equal. I think Eminem clearly has home field advantage on this song, though. This is an Eminem song that has just got dropped on the blueprint for whatever reason. It sounds totally different from the album. It's mixed totally different. So hearing Jay on that verse specifically, it doesn't. I mean, it's fine. He's rapping his ass off. Like, his performance is great. I just don't think the beat is something he would have normally picked up. It was an Eminem song that existed that had a Royce beat or a Royce verse on it, and he kind of just. I don't know what the story was of. Of Eminem giving it to him for his own album, but so I actually have that.

[Charles Holmes]

So you do. Eminem originally didn't want to give Jay Renegade. Like, he wanted to give him another song, but he knew that Jay Z was rushing to get this done, obviously. Like, this was an album that was created in a very short amount of time. And I believe Royce's label didn't want him to have two Eminem features. So he's just like, yo, let me just send this to Jay. And honestly, for the audience, it might be interesting if we play them the original, because it's leaked.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

We can play them a little bit of what Roy sounded like on it.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. Yo, yo.

[Charles Holmes]

It's several different levels to picking up shovels and dumping you in digits on the sea level front. And you can witness. Let me refresh it. You tell you my position in this.

[Cole Kushna]

That's not bad. It's not bad, but.

[Charles Holmes]

No, it's not bad, but you can tell that obviously, Royce. Eminem came up together where it's like Jay Z's. Not necessarily. He's different enough from Eminem, where there's a nice dichotomy, where with Royce, I'm just like, you guys are so stylistically similar.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, yeah. Whenever. I mean, Em has a great verse on it. I don't want to undermine his. What he does is very effective. There's the intern. Technically, it's pretty brilliant with all the internal rhymes. And I mean that the second verse, the rude, ludicrous. Ludicrous lyrics or whatever the fuck he says. It's like literally every syllable rhymes in that verse. It's pretty interesting.

[Charles Holmes]

I hate the hook.

[Cole Kushna]

I don't like the hook.

[Charles Holmes]

The hook is terrible.

[Cole Kushna]

They have no chem. The back of like, for me, the back and forth of the.

[Charles Holmes]

They don't have chemistry.

[Cole Kushna]

They don't have chemistry. It feels very forced to me.

[Charles Holmes]

I think they could have left it off. Now I think we have to go with Izzo because when I looked up the certifications, Izzo is platinum. Surprisingly, Renegade is only gold.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

H to the ISO, V to the is A for Shizu. My nizzle used to dribble down in VA Was hurting them in the home of the Turpins. Got it dirt cheap for them. Plus, if they were short with cheese, I would work with them. Yeah. So I think it has be to. Even though streaming wise to your point, Eminem streams like a monster. I still hear Izzo out.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

It's not like I've ever. I don't know if I've ever heard Renegade in the last, like, 10 years playing out of a car.

[Cole Kushna]

No. Yeah. It's the Izzo to me is the better song, clearly.

[Charles Holmes]

So best song. This is a top five J song to me.

[Cole Kushna]

I'm so curious.

[Charles Holmes]

This is everything I love about hov. I think easily the best song in this is Heart of the City. Ain't no Love. Produced by Kanye.

[Cole Kushna]

Same pick, same pick. Part of the city. Best song for me, young.

[Charles Holmes]

It's ice cream. Oh, you not feeling me fine. It cost you nothing. Pay me no mind. Look, I'm on my grind, cousin. Ain't got time for front end sensitive thugs. Y' all all need hugs. All right.

[Cole Kushna]

Is this crazy, Justin?

[Justin Sales]

No. I think that there were two choices here, but this is probably the one that edges out the other one.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. I always thought I was going to be alone on this.

[Charles Holmes]

Why to you was Heart of the. Is Heart of the City easily the best song in this album?

[Cole Kushna]

I mean, a lot of it's the production. Like.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

The chemistry him and Kanye had is so clear. Kanye has this great quote about the making of it. This is early Kanye super hungry. Kanye. Jay Z's his icon, and he's finally, finally made it to baseline with him. And he said this about the creation of the song. He said for Heart of the City, Jay came up with what he wanted to say in his head. As usual in the studio. The Fiesta remix by R. Kelly music video came on the tv and Jay walked into the booth, started recording, finished the entire song all the way to the outro, and came back into the studio, and the Fiesta music video was still playing. So if you believe the story, he essentially recorded it in one take in the time that the Same music video was playing when he walked into the booth, and when he walked out, it was that quick, which is like, I don't know if I. Like, do you believe that? Like, I.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, so this is a perfect time where we could talk about the myth of hov, right? Where I think Jay Z and the legends of how we don't write anything down. It's all off the top. I was in the studio. He finished this in two minutes. A has influenced the worst. The worst inclinations for rappers. You were not hov. Yeah, like, there's. There's Jay, there's Wayne, and the rest of you need to write your fucking.

[Cole Kushna]

The lore is so great, though.

[Charles Holmes]

It's great, but sometimes I'm like, all right, this nigga didn't finish this in three minutes.

[Cole Kushna]

You're like, the song is five minutes.

[Charles Holmes]

Like, you didn't finish this. Do you actually believe HO finished this?

[Cole Kushna]

Not. Maybe not in the time that, like, the same music video was playing. But I can. I can see him. I mean, by all accounts, he was riding super fast. This is someone just at the peak of their powers. I feel like where they're just so prolific, things are just spilling out of them. Artists have these periods. I feel like this is that J period where he's just. He can't do no wrong. He's making hit after hit. Just verses are just spilling out of him. So I believe it. I love this song. But, yeah, a lot of it is just, like, the production, the chemistry with Kanye, the framework that you point out on a song that he doesn't have a hook on. You know, the samples carrying the hook. He. He. He's really good at making these micro hooks where he's. That framework of the. The beginning of each verse kind of gives it this secondary hook and a structure that's, I think, super important to a song like this. It has some great. I mean, again, we talked. When we talked about the Clips album, I was talking, like, just every single line you can just. I was surprised with, like, there's not a lot of, like, triple entendres that I found. But to your point, just the writing is so great throughout, and it's so natural. Like, part of the reason why I believe that he's writing so fast because there's a fluidity to the lyricism that just feels like it's. Someone who has. That rapping is now second nature to them, where they don't have to sit there and think about every little line. It's just kind of flowing out of them as they once they find the cadence and the flow of the song. Some of my favorite lines is. I forgot what verses is from. But iconic line. I'm not looking at you dudes, I'm looking past you. I thought I told you characters I'm not a rapper. Can I live? I told you 96 that I came to handle this. And I did handle my biz. I scrambled like Randall with his Cunningham. But the only thing running is numbers fam. Jacob held you down six summers, Dan, so you get like the cunningham. Numbers fam summersdam Handle my biz Randall, Randall with it like all these.

[Charles Holmes]

Can I give you the closing of the first verse? Because it's so simple, it's nothing special. But I love when he goes, I don't want much. Fuck, I drove every car. Some nice cooked food, some nice clean draws. Bird ass niggas. I don't mean to ruffle y'. All. I know you waiting in the wing, But I'm doing my thing with love. It's like the bird, the ruffle, the feathers. Waiting in the wing is so simple that if you're just like. You're just listening. You're like, oh, that's not that. That's not that interesting or special. But then you, like, read the lyrics and you're like, oh, it's just great writing.

[Cole Kushna]

It's just great writing.

[Charles Holmes]

All right. Worst song. We don't have to spend that much time on it. It's easy. It's girls, girls, girls, girls, girls, girls, girls, girls. Yo, put your number on this paper. Cause I would love to date you. Holla at you when I come off. Stephen Tom Brooks 1974 song There's Nothing in this world that can stop me from loving you. I'm just going to read you some lyrics from this, and then we can get.

[Cole Kushna]

Are you sure you want to do that? Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

I got this Indian squad. The day that I met her, asked her what tribe she with. Red dot or feather? She said, all you need to know is I'm not a hoe. And to get with me, you better be Chief Lazado.

[Justin Sales]

You know what's funny?

[Cole Kushna]

Chief Lots of dough is fucking crazy, dude.

[Justin Sales]

Well, also the Navajo. Navajo crazy.

[Cole Kushna]

That's crazy.

[Charles Holmes]

This.

[Justin Sales]

If this song wasn't what it's about, if this song. If this wasn't what he was doing.

[Cole Kushna]

It'S a good song.

[Justin Sales]

Well, I'm also saying that, like, that could have been in the running for a dissectable moment.

[Cole Kushna]

Right? Right? Yeah. I'm not touching that. No, no, no.

[Justin Sales]

Please don't for the sake of. The sake of this show, please don't.

[Charles Holmes]

Ask her what tribe she with, Red Dot or Feather?

[Cole Kushna]

It's the most egregious one, but the whole thing's problematic.

[Charles Holmes]

Whoa. I got one more. Got this Chinese chick. Had to leave her quick because she kept bootlegging my shit, man. I got this African chick with Eddie Murphy on her skull. She like, jigga, man, why you treat me like animal? I'm like, excuse me, Ms. Fufu, but I met your ass. You was dead broken, naked, and now you want half. Like I said, I don't. We do not have to spend that many, that much time on Girls, Girls, Girls. It was a hit. I remember hearing it.

[Cole Kushna]

It's crazy that it was a hit.

[Charles Holmes]

It was. It was different times.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. That's the thing. It's like, can't get on too much. Like, this was. This was culturally accepted. It wasn't just Jay Z being an asshole. This was a single. We all accepted it. I didn't find it problematic at the time. We look back now, and it's like, clearly, I don't think he would stand by it.

[Charles Holmes]

No. And I. What I want to ask is Girls, Girls, Girls was easily, easily, easily the worst song because it's just aged terribly. And I don't even know. I can't remember the last time hov probably performed this live.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Were there any other songs to you that were in contention for worse? Because Justin acted like I was crazy when I said this yesterday. Hola, Ovito. I've always hated. I've always thought it just stinks.

[Cole Kushna]

I like that song. Really? I do like that song. It's fun. The chorus is kind of. Whatever.

[Charles Holmes]

It's the chorus.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

The verses. I'm fine with it. Hola. Just terrible.

[Cole Kushna]

Trying to reach too far for the anthem. There's so many, like, anthem hooves hooks on this album. It's crazy.

[Justin Sales]

I actually think there is one song that is actually worse than Girls, Girls, Girls. As a song. Like, let's take how inappropriate Girls, Girls, Girls is, especially in 2025 out of this.

[Charles Holmes]

I already know which one you're picking.

[Justin Sales]

The track master song that I can't.

[Charles Holmes]

Say the title of Jigga that Nigga. It was in contention. I will say going from Girl like the Ruler's back Takeover Izzo is such an amazing run. And then to follow that with Girls, Girls, Girls and Jigga that Nigga is. It's a weak bar.

[Justin Sales]

It's. To me, the thing about that song that kills me is, Jay, it was the obvious, like, Trying to concoct a radio hit.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Sales]

And this album did not need that in the way, like, volume one needed that. Like, I. I think Volume one actually be my favorite J record. But it has songs like. I know what girls like. It has songs like Sunshine. You understand the point he was at in his career where he needed songs like that. He didn't need that on this record. And not only did he not need that and he did it anyways, but the song sucks. And it wasn't even a single. Like, he made the song with the track masters. That should have been a club record. That should have been a hit, and it fell flat.

[Cole Kushna]

I'm gonna be honest. I kind of like this song.

[Charles Holmes]

What?

[Cole Kushna]

I don't like the chorus, but come on the beat like, duh duh duh duh. Come on.

[Charles Holmes]

That's. I'm going to deep cut.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

Because this.

[Cole Kushna]

I'm curious. I wonder if we have the same.

[Charles Holmes]

Beat on the album. I think.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

Potentially.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

You don't know by just Blaze.

[Cole Kushna]

Same pick.

[Charles Holmes]

Really? Yeah. This beat, like, I know Heart of the City is a little bit more forward. That's the one where it's like. It's just so undeniable. But if we like, can we play a little bit of. You don't know. Tell you the difference between me and them. They trying to get they ones. I'm trying to get them. M's 1 million, 2 million, 3 million, 4. In just five years, 40 million more. That sample is so.

[Cole Kushna]

It's so good. And I love that there's no hook. One of my favorite parts because there's so many hooks on this album. He was trying to balance toe the line between commercial success and lyrical showcase. This is a perfect. No hook Jay Z, for me, let the sample do the talking and just come back in and rap. It's so good. It's probably my favorite song on the entire album.

[Charles Holmes]

I just love, like, there's. There's so many lines and say that we are prone to violence. But it's home sweet home where personalities cash, Chrome meets chrome. The coke prices up and down like his Wall street homes. It's just. How can you not.

[Cole Kushna]

I know. I do have a dissectible moment on this one.

[Charles Holmes]

Let's go.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. So it's super clever. I don't know if it was obvious to everyone. It wasn't obvious to me. But then. Okay, let me lay it out. So verse two, he says they trying to get those ones. I'm trying to get them M's 1 million, 2 million, 3 million, 4. In just five years, 40 million more. You're now looking at the 40 million, boy. Great. Good stuff. But then calls back to it with verse three, kicks off this motif with saying, and if someone would have told him that Hove would be selling clothing. Not in his lifetime. Wasn't in my right mind. So, referencing Rockerwell Rare. Then he says, I smarten up, open the market up. 1 million, 2 million, 3 million 400 in 18 months, 80 million more. Now add that up with the one I said before. You are now looking at one smart black boy. So if you add up 80 million from this verse 3 with the previous 40 million from verse 2, you get a total of 120 million. Why is that significant? Because this is what he says on the final verse. The final line of the final verse. He says, put me anywhere on God's green earth, I'll triple my worth. What is 40 times 3? 40 from the first. The first reference times 3 is 120. So he tripled his worth, calling back to the line from Sick.

[Charles Holmes]

Incredible.

[Cole Kushna]

So good.

[Charles Holmes]

It's why he's the goat.

[Cole Kushna]

So sick.

[Charles Holmes]

It's why he's the goat.

[Cole Kushna]

It's so good. And just to call it out, since we're here. I sell ice in the winter I sell fire and hell I'm a hustler, baby I sell water to a whale Homophone with whale and a well. It's so good.

[Charles Holmes]

I love. There was no, like, if I was. Like, if I don't get to talking about. You don't know. Every single time. Like, I remember going to see Jay on tour, and I'm almost positive he played this song just because the beat is just like.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Rattles you, right? I'm. I'm actually surprised that we both were agreeing so much.

[Cole Kushna]

I know. Last episode, same thing.

[Charles Holmes]

All right. Best moment. This is where we talked about Takeover. What I nominated is the 2001 Summer Jam performance. Okay.

[Cole Kushna]

Of course.

[Charles Holmes]

Because he brings out Michael Jackson. Remember it? Insane. Everybody was going bonkers. He premieres Takeover, and if anybody wants to know where we get the classic, put him on the Summer Jam screen. This is where it happens. Because during this beef, he's beefing with Prodigy, and then on the screen, he puts a photo of Prodigy performing at his grandmother's dance recital. To me, still, Takeover is my favorite song from the Beef.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Even though Aether is the one that obviously won Nas the battle, I think Takeover easily won Jay Z the war. Because, like, going back over this, well, Nas doesn't get the worst bars in this.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Prodigy is the one who gets, like, fucking dismantled. But my favorite lyrics from this are like, Jay Z being like, hey, yo, Nas, I know you not talking, nigga. You make a class sing five years. I love Takeover. What do you think that this is the best song from the Beef?

[Cole Kushna]

It's. It's close. I think I actually might prefer Ether. I think returning to Takeover, it kind of reminded me, like, do you think strategic? Because, people, the general consensus is that Ether was like, the winning song. One nause the battle. Correct me if I got any of this wrong, Justin, but do you think part of that reason is because, like, Drake's Family Matters, he was shooting at more than one person where Nas just got to focus just on Jay.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

Because returning to Takeover one, it's like the first two verses are for Prodigy. Then he get. Nas gets the 36 bars, 38 bars verse. And then there's. I always forget about. There's a fourth verse which just shouldn't be there.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

It's like, is it too clunky? Is part of, like, why Aether 1 was. Because it was just more concise, just structurally and just aiming at one target. I don't know. Justin, would you have any thoughts on this?

[Justin Sales]

I think it just simply comes down to the third verse of Aether is just savage. My take on this is that Aether is the better diss track by a hair, where this is the more enjoyable song to listen to. The beat on Aether is like. You know, it's iconic, but, like, it's.

[Cole Kushna]

Not part of it. Is like, why I like Aether, though, is because you can hear his articulation of. His words are way clearer than on Takeover, which has a more bigger theatrical production. So some of the bars feel more like, hit you viscerally and kind of vicious because they're so articulated. Where. I don't know. It's like a lot of the Nas bars are like, I showed you your first tech.

[Charles Holmes]

I'm like, all right, cool. Like, it's just like, it's not as hard hitting.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

And I think the other thing that we're probably circling is that when I was reading about just the making of this album, I think Guru had said, I've never seen hov mad. He's so laid back. Even when he was rapping Takeover, you hear it on tape. He's not mad, he's not angry. There's not that much. There is a level of dissection where it's like he's playing the cool guy.

[Cole Kushna]

Right.

[Charles Holmes]

Which is like in between sending shots at Prodigy and not like, everybody getting their own little section. Him kind of being laid back and cool about it. Like, almost. Jay's always done this. I'm almost too cool to even be mentioned.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. It's like he's, like, laughing where Nas is like, I'm fucking going to speak to your soul. You know, there's like, so. But even just returning to this beef, not to make this about Drake and Kanye, but just the evolution of where we are, where we've landed, with beefs, where we're. Everything seems so tame in Takeover and Aether compared to what happened with Drake and Kendrick in terms of, like, I don't know, the salacious just really.

[Charles Holmes]

I mean, here's the thing. Jay Z fucking splooshing over car seats, having to apologize. Like his mom forcing him to apologize on the radio.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, I guess so.

[Charles Holmes]

Like, you know what I mean? Like, even right now, because it's hip hop history, I feel like we almost underrate how, like, the insanity of Jay Z putting up a photo of Prodigy dressed as Michael Jackson on the Summer Jam screen. You know what I mean? Like, I think it seems cute now in a way where I'm just like, what was Drake and Meek Mill really about? What was Drake like? Pusha T, obviously, revealing that you're hiding a child is the craziest thing that's ever happened. But even like, the Drake and Kendrick beef, even though Kendrick dismantled Drake to such an extent, what really, like, what was actually discovered in. In it.

[Cole Kushna]

Right? Yeah, yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

You know what I mean?

[Cole Kushna]

There's attempts at discovery, but none of it really. It was all.

[Charles Holmes]

To me, it's TMZ rumors, Pusha T revealing that. Pusha T revealing that Drake had a child. Summer Jam screen. Everything happened with Kendrick and Drake. Just because you don't have that final, like, oh, I. I revealed something like, perfect example, Rick Ross being a correctional officer. That's something where it's just like forever. We have to kind of be like, what the. How did you even find this out?

[Cole Kushna]

Right? Yeah. Just a reminder, though. Kendrick did perform not like us at the super bowl and look directly into the camera and said, hey, Drake.

[Charles Holmes]

Anyways, that is true.

[Cole Kushna]

In front of 130 million people. So anyways, let's not make this about.

[Charles Holmes]

Drake, but was there. Were there any. Finally, before I wrap up, were there any other best moments that could have been in contention besides the Summer Jam takeover?

[Cole Kushna]

That one was such a clear thing that I didn't actually think through anything else. Justin, does anything else come to mind? I mean, the 911 thing is always just kind of crazy.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

To was different than this.

[Justin Sales]

But I gotta be honest though, saying best moment. 911 is kind of a tough one.

[Charles Holmes]

Of course, of course.

[Justin Sales]

I think it's very clearly Takeover.

[Charles Holmes]

Easy. We running this rap shit the Broad street bully we running this rap shit get zipped up in plastic when it happens that's it, freak. Wait, we running this rap?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Well, yo, that's the blueprint. Now. We're gonna go for a little. For a little break. And when we get back, it's time to make lemons. Lemonade.

[Cole Kushna]

All right.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, Cole, we're back. Lemonade, tell me everything. Why did you pick this album? You obviously did a season of dissect on it. Why this Beyonce album? Why this moment in music?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. Let me preface with just some basic album facts. And then I think we have to just like last episode with the VMAs and twisted fantasy. We're going to have. We're going to have to take that elevator ride for a little bit. But first release date, Lemonade, April 23, 2016. It sells 653,000 copies in its first week, which is awesome and ridiculous. Official singles are Formation, Sorry, Hold Up, Freedom, and All Night. It receives widespread critical acclaim from day one. Nominated for nine Grammys, only two wins. It was named the greatest album of the 2010s by the Associated Press, best album of the 21st century by Rolling Stone. It was famously surprise released after an hour long film on hbo. And then Lemonade comes out directly after the premiere of this beautiful film that we'll talk about. And so that was a cultural moment in itself. I want to talk to you about your memories of the surprise release in the film. But again, we got to go back to that infamous elevator ride between Solange, Beyonce's sister, Beyonce, and Jay Z at the Met Gala in 2014. The video gets leaked May of 2014, and essentially all hell breaks loose online. This is like the prime time, like the prime era of Twitter, I feel like. And so like Twitter streams were just as you alluded to earlier. This was the first kind of chink in the armor. The veneer of Jay Z and Beyonce starting to kind of crack before our eyes. Do you remember this incident in real time? Do you remember it coming out and leaking?

[Charles Holmes]

I remember the incident. I remember laughing hysterically. I thought it was the funniest thing ever. It was. If I'm. This is my hot take, you know, if you're Mr. Dissect, I'm Mr. Hot Take. I Think the cheating scandal, the Solange elevator kick, all of it gave Jay Z and Beyonce another 15 years of relevance. If I'm gonna be on, like, not in. Like, I'm not even dissing them. I'm saying, like, up till this point, Beyonce had already been anointed. I am the biggest Destiny's Child fan ever. You never want to see me with a drink in my hand when Destiny's Child goes on. Okay, Like, I can kill some karaoke. I love me some Beyonce. But what I would say about her solo career is that I don't know if her solo career ever had an arc. She was always making huge, big songs. But the knock that you could say about her is, a, I don't know if she's that great of an album artist, and B, I don't know if she ever had, like, a narrative album to kind of, like, totally kind of show all of her strengths as an artist. And if you think about Lemonade, if you think about the Carters, if you think about 444, they got a lot of music and a lot of attention out of untangling this web. Like, I'll ask you this. Do you think Lemonade ever gets released or made without it becoming such a public. A public affair?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. That's a really interesting question. You would think. Yeah. I don't know, because they were almost like, it forced her hand. I guess she could have went on and pretended nothing happened, and they released a joint statement, and a couple weeks after the incident, kind of try to brush it under the rug. But, yeah, it's an interesting question. I don't know. Obviously, we can't know for sure, but I don't think it would have hit. It wouldn't. It wouldn't have been a cultural moment, as it was as. As crazy of Lemonade dropping, hearing Becky with the good hair and that becoming such a moment. Like, I don't think it is what it is, clearly, without this becoming public. And to Beyonce's credit, what I love about Lemonade is that she takes essentially, literally a TMZ gossip scandal and transforms it into a beautiful piece of artwork, you know, addressing the infidelity not in just a betrayal. And how could you do this to me? And all the common justified and common feelings. But it was like, no, let me. Let me one use my platform to make this more than just my personal story, and let me try to link it to not only just like, just relationships in general, specifically black relationships, and then tying it to historical, cultural, like, essentially going like, literally, the HBO film Is filmed in Louisiana on former slave plantations. And she's drawing connections between black American trauma, experience in slavery and how very much like Mr. Morale, how that kind of evolved and still affects black relationships. And so using her own hurt and transforming that to make this grand statement about her identity and her culture and her people. Like, just like, she didn't have to do that. And she did, and she executed it perfectly. Like, there's a lot of like short films that are kind of ancillary content to albums Now. Lemonade is a legit film for people that it's a tragedy that you can't just go stream it somewhere. It's kind of hard to find now. But I studied that. I've watched that thing like probably over 30 times doing my season on Dissect on it. That is a legit piece of film that is. And what I love about Lemonade is how all the ancillary elements interact with each other and become like this larger piece of art that transcends just the album itself. You know, what I compared it to in the Dissect season was this concept we talked about in classical music is an idea called Gesamtgunt wert, which is a German word for an all encompassing something that Richard Wagner made famous with his operas. Ironically, we talked about him last episode. But essentially it's a grand vision of art where the pieces like dance, music, wardrobe, storytelling, poetry, all combine into this larger piece of art where all the elements interact with each other, enhance the overall piece of art. And that's what Lemonade is. You know, when you study it with the film, with the music videos, with the live performances and the music, it creates this world that you explore and tells a really beautiful, powerful story. And this to me is like Beyonce stepping into her what we now consider Beyonce, to your point where she was this kind of singles hit maker, not quite an album artist, to now being one of the best album artists that we have ever had in this century so far.

[Charles Holmes]

Can I also pitch you on this? I think hearing you talk, what I don't think we give Beyonce enough credit for is that this is like an auteur moment where I don't. Especially when we talk about black pop music, Whether it's some of her contemporaries, whether it's a Brandy or an Ashanti, Keisha Cole, women who are talented. I grew up on their music and I love R and B to such an extent. We didn't talk about artists like that usually. And to give also like pop stars like Christina Aguilera, Britney Spears, when we talk about their music. A lot of times, we give credit to the lyricists. We give credit to the producers. We give credit to everybody except the woman who actually creates it. And I think after Lemonade, what you start to see is you start to see. We start talking about Beyonce as a. A black woman, as a creator, as an auteur. Different. We start talking about Taylor Swift differently. It's not just that they're talented singers. It's not just that they're talented entertainers. We start talking about them in the same way that we talk about Bob Dylan or the Rolling Stones or the Beatles. We start thinking. And I think that's also. I have to give credit to all the collaborators that she worked with. Whether it was Jack White or Ezra or Dibbler or whatever, everybody walked away from this saying the same thing, which is like, no, no, no. She's the architect. She is in the studio being like, no, no, no. Do it like this. I env. Everything from the art or whatever. We go from thinking of Beyonce as a tool being used by a bunch of other people to her being like, no, no, no, no, no. She's always been the composer. She's front and center to the director of this.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. I mean, it's very Kanye esque. We don't really talk about her like that. I feel like, even enough now, because we give Kanye a lot of credit for being this master curator, master orchestrator. Beyonce's doing the same thing at just as high of a level that Kanye was at his peak of his powers. And I think Lemonade's the start of that. And we see the evolution of this auteur moment in a project like the Renaissance series, which is now, I feel like taking a lot of elements that we actually hear in Lemonade, which is this really diverse palette of sounds and genres that she's experimenting with. You have a rock song with Jack White. We have a country song in Daddy Lessons. We have an R and B song. We have ballads. We have. She's doing everything on this album.

[Charles Holmes]

It's like. And when you think about even, like, something that your, like, dissect is built on. When Destiny's Child came out, could you have. Could any of us ever imagine that Beyonce would become an artist where it's like, we're not just dissecting her albums now. We're dissecting her Coachella performance, her super bowl performance.

[Cole Kushna]

Exactly.

[Charles Holmes]

Like she's. She. This album, to me, is instrumental in her teaching the audience. Like, no, anytime I create art, you need to dissect everything. From the album art, to the music videos, to the actual music, to the dance routines, what we're wearing. And, like, kudos to Beyonce because I think it's black. Women in black art deserve that level of attention because it comes with that amount of detail.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. All right, you better move on to the album trivia. What do you got? I'm so scared now. I feel like I let the people down last episode.

[Charles Holmes]

Let me. One of these. I think you'll get.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

And if these are too hard, Justin can jump in and be like Charles for next episode. Stop being a dickhead. All right, this isn't. I'm going to throw you an easy lob. We've been talking about Solange, the elevator kick. How that is really everything that starts it off. So my first question is something simple. Do you remember the name of the hotel while the elevator kick took place?

[Cole Kushna]

I do, I do. It's right there. Again, give me a. Can you just give me the slightest.

[Charles Holmes]

Hint, Starts with an S.

[Cole Kushna]

I don't think I'm gonna get it.

[Charles Holmes]

The standard high line in New York.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. All right.

[Charles Holmes]

Was that fair? Was that too hard?

[Cole Kushna]

I get. I don't think so, Justin.

[Justin Sales]

I think that's fair.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. I think that's a fair.

[Charles Holmes]

This one might be unfair. One of the best songs off Lemonade is Hold up, which Ezra Koning has said was partially inspired by a tweet he made about the yeah yeah yeah's 2003 song Maps. If hold up is about Jay Z, which famous rock star inspired the lyrics to Maps?

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, I have no idea. That's not even a Beyonce question.

[Charles Holmes]

How. I think that's really, really fair. The song is about Karen O, front woman of the. Yeah, yeah. Yes. And her then boyfriend, Angus Andrew, frontman of the Liars.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

There's a connection. Both about relationships, musicians and relationships. That's not fair.

[Cole Kushna]

This.

[Charles Holmes]

What?

[Justin Sales]

I. I don't. That. I don't know.

[Cole Kushna]

Cole.

[Justin Sales]

Like, we gotta give him this one. Okay, Charles, you gotta. Next time make it a thing about the artist.

[Charles Holmes]

But here. So here's the thing. Originally, I was like, well, if I make this about the Ezra tweet, that's too easy. You did a whole season on this. You know, all that shit. I gotta go one layer deep.

[Cole Kushna]

Well, you forget this is like. Like seven years ago now, too. I don't know. All the trivia just memorized.

[Charles Holmes]

I spend all this time trying to impress my friends with stuff that can.

[Cole Kushna]

Stump Mr. Dissect, the liars frontman. What are we talking about?

[Charles Holmes]

Well, the songs.

[Justin Sales]

What's your favorite Liars record?

[Cole Kushna]

Cole.

[Justin Sales]

Charles, do you have a favorite Liar's record?

[Charles Holmes]

I didn't know the Liars existed.

[Justin Sales]

Okay. That's what I'm saying. And their best record is Drum's Not Dead.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

My bad.

[Cole Kushna]

All right, we'll move on. So let's get into the categories. Remember, we have five categories for each album. They're going to be pitted head to head at the end of the episode. Biggest song, best song, worst song, best D cup, and best moment. Biggest song is pretty obvious. It's Formation.

[Charles Holmes]

Okay, ladies, now let's get Formation. You got some coordination.

[Cole Kushna]

The coolest thing about Formation, which I do like, it's not my favorite on the album, but what I like about it symbolically and artistically is that it was the first single. It's the first thing we heard from Beyonce post Elevator Incident, I think. Right. And it was kind of a Trojan horse. Because Formation to me does not represent Lemonade. It's not the representative song that would give someone to represent what Lemonade does. Formation to me could be on the self titled album before this one. It's kind of still in that sonic territory for me. Yet Formation is one. And it's also the last song on Lemonade, which is indicative of Beyonce not trying to chase your typical hits with Lemonade. And that's kind of. This is the end of the. I mean, Lemonade on, she's not really going for those huge hits. She's making proper album, you know, from start to finish, where the singles are secondary to the bigger picture. So I like the fact that there is. When you get to Formation, after experiencing the narrative of Lemonade, it is really effective to me because you see this woman go through hard heartbreak and all these stages of grief, and she earns the freedom when you get to freedom, that freedom she feels in that song, it feels earned. And so when she calls ladies into Formation, and especially because she's encompassing not just herself, but all black women within Lemonade, when she makes that direct call to Ladies Get Information, it has this whole depth behind that statement now, which again, you didn't quite feel it in the Formation just as a lead single. So I also think it's like pretty interesting sonically, where it's like it's a Mike Will made it beat, but also has like marching band elements. You hear some horns, you hear like some New Orleans kind of bounce music. And so it's kind of this amalgamation of sounds that is kind of what she's talking about in the song when she's saying what's the line? My daddy, Alabama, my mama, Louisiana. Mix that Negro with that Creole, you could make a Texas Bama. And she's kind of representing that amalgamation of identities and cultures and doing the same thing sonically.

[Charles Holmes]

So 6 inch, though 6 inch or freedom are bigger. Formation.

[Cole Kushna]

I think Formation is clearly the biggest.

[Charles Holmes]

Oh, I'm just asking.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, I don't think 6 inch. I don't remember 6 inch being that big at all. Okay, is Formation the best song on Lemonade? I don't think so.

[Charles Holmes]

I know what your best song is gonna be.

[Cole Kushna]

Do you? Did you see my notes?

[Charles Holmes]

I do not see your notes.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, what do you think it's gonna be?

[Charles Holmes]

Freedom. Right?

[Cole Kushna]

It is free. It is freedom.

[Charles Holmes]

How? How?

[Cole Kushna]

This song is fantastic. You don't like that song?

[Charles Holmes]

This is so funny. I guarantee I'm gonna let you get back, but can you actually guess what my best song is? Because this is the one you're gonna be like. Charles.

[Cole Kushna]

What is it? Is it Daddy? Lessons?

[Charles Holmes]

This. That was one of my worst lessons.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, hold up. You've been singing hold up all morning.

[Charles Holmes]

Oh, hold up. Is 1A. There's a 1A and 1B. You're not gonna get this. It's one of my favorite bands.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, Jack. The Jack White song.

[Charles Holmes]

Don't hurt yourself so sick. I love. I feel like you would be. I love me some white stripes. When I was a wrestler, that's what I used to like. I used to play their albums before I would go on the mat. I. When this album first came out, I thought the Jack White song was gonna be terrible. And I was like, oh, Jack White and Beyonce actually have, like, some chemistry.

[Cole Kushna]

I know. Do you think the third Renaissance act's gonna be rocky? That's kind of. I think it has to be.

[Charles Holmes]

I would love.

[Cole Kushna]

I would love it. Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Wait really quick. And then we will get back. We will get back to freedom.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

What. What collaborators would you want Beyonce to work with on a rock album? Jack. I would like her to.

[Cole Kushna]

Jack White's the obvious one.

[Charles Holmes]

Keep James Blake away. That's also one of my least favorite songs. Keep James Blake Away from.

[Cole Kushna]

You don't like forward?

[Charles Holmes]

What? It's more so because I. I have a complicated relationship with James Blake.

[Cole Kushna]

The. The sequence of sandcastles. Forward, Freedom. I would put it up against any three song sequence in the 21st century. I know that might be a wild statement.

[Charles Holmes]

That is a really wild statement in.

[Cole Kushna]

Terms of, like, message symbolism, narrative impact. That. That sequence kills me. Like, kills me every single time.

[Charles Holmes]

But anyway, this Isn't about Jack White or rock music. This is about why you love Kendrick Lamar so much.

[Cole Kushna]

I'm not going to talk about Kendrick at all. What I decided I'm not going to do that. If you want to hear my freedom verse breakdown, there's a bunch of cool numerology. I I g. I gave you that spiel in our first season of last long Standing. There's also a viral TikTok video on it, so go look. Look at that. But I wanted to honor Beyonce without. Because I would like this song without Kendrick. I think it would still be my favorite song. Beyonce's voice on this record, Come on. It's the same as don't hurt yourself. Where she gets. That's why I want the rock. Rock the rock album so much. When she gives that growly. When she goes for it, man, it's like. It is like one of the best. She has one of the just the best voices that we've just ever heard. I like the fact that this is a just blaze beat, essentially, that Kendrick raps on. This is more of a rap. You usually give this to a rapper, yet she. She makes. She fits in. It's like it speaks to her superpower of being able to a song like this. Doing a song with Jack White, doing song like Sandcastles, doing a song with James Blake. She can just do anything. This song is earned. Which, again, I. It's very hard for me to separate this album from the story that it tells and the sequence, the very intentional sequence and the stages of grief. And so when you get to Freedom, this is the liberating moment of the album, Especially when you see it with the visuals. Because right before this moment, when she performs freedom on a stage in a Louisiana former slave plantation in front of a group of black women, including the mothers of Trayvon Martin, Eric Garner and Michael Brown, there's all this weight built up to this moment and the way that she's brung her entire community and her people's history to this moment. And then in the music video, if you go watch, she sings the first verse a cappella on that stage. And it's just when you get to the moment, it is just. It's the cathartic moment, the entire piece. It's that film or it's the scene in the film where the hero finally kind of transcends. And it's just such a powerful song or powerful moment in the narrative. And I have a little. This is going to bring me to my dissectable moment, actually. And it's a Music. It's a music related, dissectible moment. Because this is one of the things that I've been trying to highlight about this album, which is all these little details, from the music production to the visuals to the wardrobes, to the locations of these where they shot the film, all kind of make this composite of this larger piece of artwork. And I think it's actually the samples that you hear in Freedom is indicative of her being this auteur and using every single detail to enhance the storytelling in the message. So the main beat is by a psychedelic rock band from Puerto Rico. That's not one I want to highlight. I want to highlight two of the samples that are layered on top of that, the first of which. And these are both pulled from Alan Lomax's field recordings, which are these famous field recordings that he did in the 50s and the 60s, a lot of in the American South. So the first sample that you hear layered on top of the freedom main beat is from a black church in Mississippi. And you hear essentially a reverend, this sample right here. So you're hearing the actual, you know, she's bringing her history here. And we're hearing that this is a field recording of actual black church in the 60s or in 1959. And here's how it plays and layers onto Freedom. So you hear those voices. So part of this explosive moment, this freedom that she's talking about is like a liberation of not just herself again. Right. She's grounding it in history. The second sample might be even more powerful. So this is another field recording of a chain gang. So this is in Memphis, Tennessee. And we hear this. So we're hearing the actual banging of the hammers. And then here's how it's flipped and layered in Freedom. So it's just like symbolically. And you're singing about freedom and you've incorporated this history into the tire project. Like, man, that it's not only works musically as a climax and we get her great belting crescendo voice, but we get these details like this that just for me, but my brain, how I experience music, man, that is like, that's hard to top also.

[Charles Holmes]

It is. It speaks to what we've been saying, which is like, yo, Beyonce's like a producer. Yeah, there's like, she's an artist, but she's a producer. She's to be able to hear the beat on that many levels lyrically, the actual production, the samples, the thematics, and it all coming together to sound that good. Because I'm like a lot of people. That would just be too much. It would be.

[Cole Kushna]

Or it wouldn't be part of the beat. It would be like a quote unquote skit or an interlude, and it'd be more forward facing. But the brilliance of Lemonade is that you can just kind of put it on and enjoy it as just music. But. But if you want the layers, they're all.

[Charles Holmes]

That's how I did this week was very funny because I remember watching the video or the movie on HBO at the time and reading about all of the things that it was about. But for this exercise, I just put it on my car and it did work surprisingly well. Just as a record that has really big. Where I was like, oh, shit, like, this still bangs. And I was like, almost weirdly, I think sometimes the myth of the album had changed my. My thinking of it being something that still works as a pop record in a vacuum, which I loved.

[Cole Kushna]

Right. Okay. What was your best song?

[Charles Holmes]

Did you say Jack White or Hulk?

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, right, okay. Right.

[Charles Holmes]

1A, 1B.

[Cole Kushna]

Worst song. I don't want to spend a lot of time. This was actually really hard for me. There's not an obvious worst song to me on this. I mean, this is a very tight album. Every song, I think, is of quality. If I was forced to choose, it's 6 inch featuring the Weeknd.

[Charles Holmes]

Oh, we have the same one. Weekend is like a sore. I like the Weeknd. I like some weekend records. Do not get at me. Why is the Weeknd on this record?

[Cole Kushna]

It's a. Yeah. It's the one feature that does feel a little bit out of place.

[Charles Holmes]

It feels a little bit reachy where it's like Kendrick Lamar to me makes sense.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Jack White to me, makes sense. James Blake, I can get it because I'm just. In terms of. Just like. James Blake is also a very, very good producer. I could see why she's just like, oh, the Weeknd. Taking nothing away from him. I don't. The Weeknd's music has never had that much depth to me. I know that's gonna sound so bad. That's not why I go to the Weeknd. But it's just.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

I know this was rough for you too.

[Cole Kushna]

It was hard because symbolically, it's great. She's talking about working hard, grinding. But the chapter name in the film is Emptiness. So it's like essentially someone that's disassociated and feeling numb from her experience and this infidelity kind of ruining her world. And it's just like this haunting, like, I Don't know. She's playing like a stripper in the song. And it's like, I get symbolically. It's function, and I think it works within the album. But if I'm forced to pick worst song, best deep cut. Before I reveal you mine, I want. I'm curious about yours. I wonder. I don't think it's going to be the same. Do you have. Do you have a deep cut?

[Charles Holmes]

This was difficult because I'm like, what's actually a. Because there's not that many out and out hits. I was like, what?

[Cole Kushna]

It's like everything's kind of a deep cut in a sense, aside from formation. I feel like. Or even hold up maybe.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, so this. I don't know. I don't. What's the song? I think it's All My Life.

[Cole Kushna]

Wait, what?

[Charles Holmes]

Isn't that the lyrics?

[Cole Kushna]

I don't think so. I thought I'm gonna bail. Maybe your performance is just not accurate.

[Charles Holmes]

That is definitely. What? Whoa. I have to start.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, okay. All night. Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

Oh, that's what she's singing.

[Cole Kushna]

What'd you say?

[Charles Holmes]

What'd you say? That's how you know I'm an idiot. Cause the title of it is called All Night. And this entire. For years, I've been like, all my love.

[Cole Kushna]

All my life.

[Charles Holmes]

I've never read the lyrics. All night. I never make it that far in the album.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. My best deep cut is Sandcastles.

[Charles Holmes]

From my last encounter.

[Cole Kushna]

Pictures snatched out. Do you like Sand Castles? This song is gorgeous, dude. It's a classic ballad. It's just Beyonce and piano. This is Beyonce, a true vocalist, carrying the entire song with a phenomenal voice, but in a similar way as Freedom. A lot of this. Well, the song on its own is like. It's a song, like, sing about Me, actually, where I listen to it and I just get teared up every time. But a part of that is again, like Freedom. This is the moment of forgiveness in the narrative. This is where essentially she sets up the sandcastle motif, where she says, we built sandcastles that wash away. I made you cry when I walked away. Admitting that she did leave Jay at some point, and then says, and although I promised that I couldn't stay, every promise don't work out that way. So essentially saying, I tried to leave you, but I can't. And this is the moment where I accept you back into my life. This is where the moment that we start to heal together. And I want to play you just one excerpt from the song, because it is. I Think. One of the most beautiful moments that I have ever heard in music, I think.

[Charles Holmes]

And your face. What is it about you that I. I can't erase, Baby, that is a perfect example. Of what? Of the power, the richness, the depth of Beyonce's voice. Do you think that we also tend to ding singers like Beyonce because they have that voice where it's like, we almost feel like their music is less artistic.

[Cole Kushna]

Right.

[Charles Holmes]

You know what I mean? Where I feel like a lot of times with. With rock stars or especially white artists, it's just like, oh, well, if they can't sing, obviously, well, there's more depth to their lyrics, and there's more depth to the. And I'm like, yeah, that's.

[Cole Kushna]

It's like, we think it's a cheat code. It's like you're just a pop star with a good voice. People write your. This is the typical pop star formula. Really? It's like, people write. You have songwriters, and it's like this whole formula behind you, which I think was some of her early career, of course, but, like. No, yeah, I think I see your point in terms of, like, we need to give her more credit as an artist, as someone who knows how to use her voice effectively, which is much different than just having a great voice.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

Understanding the emotional impact of that moment. I'm sure maybe she had some people helping her write songs. Like, that's pretty typical. But for her and her being such a savant with, like, backing harmonies, like, you hear the stories of people. Like, she goes in there. She creates all those harmonies herself. She's super articulate and a perfectionist when it comes to, like, her vocal deliveries. And so it's not just about having a great instrument. That is the thing about being a singer is that you're kind of just born with a good instrument or not, but it's another one to be a virtuoso of that instrument that you're born with. And Beyonce is clearly that.

[Charles Holmes]

And even, you know, she's so good with her voice. I love the times where she's like, yo, I'm not gonna even sing. I'm gonna rap this part. Cause she, like, she's low key. Beyonce's a good rapper.

[Cole Kushna]

I know.

[Charles Holmes]

Like, she can, like, sometimes, like, when she. There are certain singers where it's just like, when Ariana Grande starts, like, rap, I'm like, all right, fuck, shoot me when Beyonce does it, I'm like, all right, B. I like, I can see you. You getting in that pocket.

[Cole Kushna]

That's another rumor. Not as strong as the rock. But, like, some people are speculating, the third Renaissance might be rap, but I don't think that makes sense.

[Charles Holmes]

I don't think that makes as much sense in terms of just like the narrative ARC of Act 1, Act 2, Act 3, because to your point, Lemonade is the moment where it's like all the acts are literally her taking slivers of Lemonade and being like, all right, I'm actually going to do the expansive version.

[Cole Kushna]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And I think the rock is especially. What I learned, even researching the Lemonade stuff was, like, where she honors artists like sista Rosetta Tharp, which was this black woman, great guitar player in the early days of rock and roll that really influenced guitar playing in general, that most people just have no idea who Sister Rosetta Tharp is. And I think part of Renaissance and reclaiming these genres that can be attributed to black artists or the black influence or contributions to genres like country kind of get whitewashed. I think rock is going to be perfect, if that's what it is. Anyways, moving on to best moment. I think we already talked about it. For me, it's clearly just the HBO premiere of Lemonade, the film, and then the surprise drop of Lemonade, the album that night on title, and just the. Just the frenzy of that moment. Becky with the good hair, kind of like that whole mystery of it all. And I just remember that time so clearly, just the kind of hysteria that she was able to conjure up in the culture that very few people have the ability to do just to create that kind of moment. You remember that?

[Charles Holmes]

I remember the hysteria. I remember Beyonce's. Especially at that time in music. The very rare artist that can force everybody to stay home and turn on HBO for an album like that is something where I'm like, how many artists in 2025 can do that? Taylor Swift is probably among, like, Beyonce still Taylor. I don't actually like Drake, probably not Kanye, definitely not Kendrick. Definitely can.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

So, like, even at that moment, especially also when Lemonade comes out, I think what people forget is that that was still a very, very rocky time in the music industry. I think. I think streaming especially was still like, we take it for granted. We work for Spotify, obviously, but we take it for granted how shaky things had gotten at that point. And I think even for Beyonce as an artist, she was going in a place where it's like she had been famous and making pop music. 15 years at that. Like, 10, 15 years at that point. And Lemonade, to me, was an interesting Choice for her to make in her career. Where. When the foundations of the music industry and where we're going is streaming going to save us all of this. For her to be like, no more hits. I'm actually doing my most personal thing to date was. It was a powerful moment. Cause I think it. When we talk about freeing her not just from, you know, a bunch of things about black love and that experience and everything. I also think this album freed her from the expectations of being Beyonce.

[Cole Kushna]

I think so, yeah. And it's a. She follows the formula that every artist that I admire historically do, which is. Comes into the industry and to the public consciousness as one thing. Usually a pop singer or pop star uses her influence to then present more creative. Creative and artistic visions and ideas to this massive audience that they've accumulated. I think of like, artists like, you know, if you go back to like, the Beatles did a similar thing coming in as essentially a boy band, but then really experimenting later in their career. And, like, I really admire people with such a huge platform using that platform to introduce people to really complex, emotional, like, everything you'd want in art and kind of quote unquote, high art, for lack of a better term, to expose the masses to that kind of thing. Where she could have just rode her career like any other quote, unquote pop star, but to really see her come into her own as an artist, especially as a black woman, I think has been.

[Charles Holmes]

If you would have told me back when I was listening to Destiny, I still listen to Destiny Childs almost every day. If you would have told me that Beyonce by, like, at this point in 2025, to me, she's on the same level as the people you met. When we talk about the Beatles, when we talk about Bob Dylan, when we talk about Prince, when we talk about all these artists, I'm just like, no, you gotta, like, you literally have to put Beyonce.

[Cole Kushna]

She's in there for sure.

[Charles Holmes]

She's literally like, from everything from the pop records to the more considered shit to the vocals to the Coachella performance, I'm just like, she's no longer to me in just an R and B conversation or a pop conversation. She's in the music greats conversation.

[Cole Kushna]

And the thing is too. To wrap this up is like, we're interested in what she has to say, which I feel like is rare air for to artists to get to. For example, the Weeknd has been doing a similar type of thing, experimenting with cinema, relating it to his albums. His albums tell this story. It's not as interesting or as impactful as Lemonade. And to your point about who can stop the world and make them, force them to tune into an hour long special on HBO the Weeknd, as popular as he is, he's probably way more streamed than Beyonce is. I don't think he could do that. It's not about just her popularity. It's actually she's gotten to the point as an artist, as a Kendrick is. It's not only that we want great music. It's like, what does that music. We expect her to say something with every record now, and she delivers. She's been delivering since Lemonade on not only conceptual, framing things conceptually like a renaissance idea, but you know, those albums are saying, each of those albums are saying something, you know, and that again, Lemonade is the genesis of her as that type of artist.

[Charles Holmes]

And I mean, the last thing I'll say before we go head to head is, you know, I've had a very winding career with Beyonce's music critically in terms of what my favorite moments are. But what I'll say is like, yo, heavy is the head that wears the crown. And I think what makes Beyonce so special as an artist is most black women aren't even allowed to get to this point. It's not that black women don't have the talent. It's just like when you think about the course of popular music and all of the bullshit that women in this field have to go through, there's a reason why Beyonce, like Beyonce, feels a responsibility to be like, no, no, no, I'm going to teach you about black people's place in electronic music and country music and rock music. That's why I'm going to pull this clip from a chain gang or this clip from history and contextualize it. Because when you're a Beyonce and there's only one of you standing around, doesn't do it, who else will?

[Cole Kushna]

Right? Which is why, like, not to get into the controversy around her. And like, some people have problems with her doing that kind of thing. It's like, but to your point, it's like, if not her, who if it's not perfect for you and your specific vision, I get that. But like, at least she's trying and it feels genuine to me. It feels like it is coming from her experience and, and her own research and everything.

[Charles Holmes]

So I've been. And here's the thing. I'm as critical as anyone. Beyonce's done certain things where I'm like, I don't know about that. But to your point, I've Always back to. I'm like, I don't need my pop stars to be perfect. I'm not going to Beyonce to give me a PhD level thesis on every single thing she's doing. I'm going to Beyonce to be like, shit, I wasn't even thinking about that today. Let me go do my own research. That's what the good artists do. Kendrick Lamar doesn't have to be perfect to me. Every single part of his lore theory about race, I disagree with a lot of it, but sometimes I'm just like, hey, we weren't taught. Like, hey, he's put it out in the ether. Now we're talking about it.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[Charles Holmes]

So are we ready to debate?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. This is gonna be tougher than last episode. Last episode was, like, it was super easy.

[Charles Holmes]

This one?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. This one, I don't know. So biggest song. We're going Formation versus Izzo.

[Charles Holmes]

It's definitely Izzo.

[Cole Kushna]

I wish I could pick. Maybe people are gonna be mad at me for not picking up, but I think it is Izzo.

[Charles Holmes]

It's Formation, to me, has almost kind of been lost in the song. Like, I think a lot of this album has been lost in the sauce of the renaissance era. If I'm gonna be real, I think.

[Cole Kushna]

There are other Beyonce songs that could easily triumph over Izzo, but I don't think Formation's the one.

[Charles Holmes]

So Izzo on the board. Easy.

[Cole Kushna]

I think so.

[Charles Holmes]

Best song, though. This is gonna be tough. Heart of the City.

[Cole Kushna]

Heart of the City. Damn.

[Charles Holmes]

I'm gonna give you the four. Why do you think it should be Freedom?

[Cole Kushna]

Because everything I laid out, like, they're both spectacular songs for different reasons. Although Heart of the City, like we talked about, does have depth. It's not like he's saying nothing but how do you beat for in my mind, how do you be? Let's bring in the Kendrick feature also with this, which is spectacular and the perfect use of a feature that the beat, the symbolism of the beat within the narrative, it's just, like, way more complex. On a surface level, I think it's just as good as Heart of the City just as a song. But to me, the depth of freedom is what I'm going to say is what puts it over. Heart of the City. Are you going to make a case against me? Are you pushing back?

[Charles Holmes]

I would make the case. Heart of the City is the top five J record. Freedom to me isn't even a top ten Beyonce record. And, like, I think if you ask most Beyonce fans what songs of her of hers are Just like when you go down the list. I think Freedom is one of her most important songs. I think it is one of her most layered songs. Everything that you say I don't disagree with. And I could even see if you're talking about the things to unpack. It's just. It's like comparing, like, a great magazine to a great book. And that's not me dissing Heart of the City. They're trying to do comparison. Yeah, but if I'm thinking of what's more important to popular music, what's the more. Not just the more popular song, but in terms of just, like, what do I want to eat every day? What, like, moves my soul? Heart of the City is just. It is incredible. Like Jay Z is when it's. When all is said and done, Jay Z is going to be the greatest rapper of all time. And you cannot tell that story without Heart of the City. I think that you can tell the story of Beyonce without. You can't tell it without Lemonade, but you could tell it without Freedom.

[Cole Kushna]

But this is a. This is a 21st century debate. We're not debating Jay Z's best song. We're not meeting Beyonce's best song. If an alien dropped to Earth and we had to give him a song, like, to me, you can give the alien freedom. And it would say so much. Not just about Beyonce as an artist, not just about Lemonade as an album, but it could tell you things about not only this moment in culture, but also the history of this country is embedded in this song. Like, it literally. I played the samples. It is embedded in the song.

[Charles Holmes]

Here's the thing. All of that is true. But if you look at Heart of the City, to me, it has all of those same things that you're talking about in terms of, like, 24.

[Cole Kushna]

Like, it's true.

[Charles Holmes]

The sample. In terms of just, like, the history of black music, the history of where Kanye sits in that. Where Jay sits in that. Jay Z's verses, in terms of just like him using his position in rap to point to the trajectory of other black celebrities and the way that, like, to be a black celebrity in America, at some point, you are either gonna be torn down. There's only gonna be so much time that you have on the clock. I don't know if you could tell the story of Jay Z. Hip hop, New York, hip hop, without Heart of the City.

[Cole Kushna]

A connection I'm just making now, though, is exactly what you're laying out that is embedded in Heart of the City. Like, the elevator moment was that for him, like, he could have wrote a verse. He could have started off a verse. Flipping that with the elevators.

[Charles Holmes]

Like, it's. I won't be like. It's just.

[Cole Kushna]

We might need to call the referee.

[Charles Holmes]

We're gonna have to call in the referee. I just love Heart of the Season so much. There's no. I'll put it to you this way.

[Cole Kushna]

Justin's the biggest Jay Z fan on earth.

[Justin Sales]

No, Jay Z is not. No, I'm not the biggest Jay Z fan on earth.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Justin Sales]

I want. I want to set the record straight. I just said Prodigy was one of my favorite rat. Okay, whatever.

[Charles Holmes]

I don't.

[Justin Sales]

I don't think it's right for me to place a vote in this, though, because I think based on the amount of times you guys called me in for Jay Z versus Beyonce, it's just very clear where my allegiances lie. However, I will say that Charles's argument about what this song means in each artist's careers, respectively, holds a lot of weight. This means this song means a lot more for Jay Z than Freedom does for Beyonce.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, this is. This is an interesting exercise because this is showing us the difference between Lemonade is clearly more than the sum of its parts. So in an exercise like this, when we're singling out a piece of the album that is an entire world, we're plucking one element out of that world, and it's going against an album that is just not conceptual, really, that has that. Each song is constructed to be a standalone thing where Lemonade is conceived as this large vision. So it is. I am realizing that it is failing in the individual category section, but I think it's actually going to make an interesting debate when we get to the end of the voting.

[Charles Holmes]

I will say, here's the thing. Lemonade is a better album. Like, it's like, it's not. I don't think it's a. It's not the album that I like more. But to your point, we are comparing, like, an, like, the artistic statement of someone being like, I'm creating a whole world to someone being like. Like, what Jay Z was going after is not pettier, but like, Jay Z wanted to be the king of New York. You know what I'm saying?

[Cole Kushna]

And all that. Historically, it's not as, like, on the surface, but to your point, like, you pointed out on Heart of the City, like, all that stuff is inherent in him being a rapper, him being black, him being a drug dealer and ascending. Like, all these things are saying things about the country.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

Tangentially. And it's not like he doesn't have to. He does say those things directly. But, like, it's not as obvious as.

[Charles Holmes]

It's not as obvious or it's not as. And this is the hard part of the arc of the. Of the exercise is like, these albums were made in such a. Were made so far apart that it's like Beyonce's making this album with so much more history behind her in terms of, like, where black music was then as a culture, where, with Jay Z's making Heart of the City, hip hop is still ascending. You know what I mean? Like, Kanye's not Kanye yet. There's no Drake. Lil Wayne isn't mixtape. Wayne. There's no future whatever.

[Cole Kushna]

Or even Kendrick. I would add Kendrick to that, who I think Lemonade is clearly inspired by Kendrick Lamar and his vision of.

[Charles Holmes]

And it's like, that is also what makes it different. Where I'm like, yeah, technically, Lemonade is the better album because I'm just like, what we actually want from black. What we want from black art now, the ambition level. And that's not me, guys. That's not me saying black art hasn't been ambitious before. I'm more so saying, like, we weren't expecting artists to. There was a purple ray. You know what I'm saying? How many artists have a purple ray? Not that many. And, like, now it's accepted with, like, a Kendrick or a Kanye or Beyonce. It's like, no. Like, you need the movie. You need the album. You need the. You need the tour. Which way. Which way are we leaning?

[Cole Kushna]

I don't know. I mean, I think you make great points. And.

[Charles Holmes]

Let'S come back to this. Let's go. Worst song. I think worst song is super easy. It has three girls. Girls, girls.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. Yes. Okay. Great point on the board for Beyonce. That's easy. No discussion. Best deep cut. I had sandcastles versus what was your.

[Charles Holmes]

Oh, we wanted. Did you want to play them both side by side? Let's play them both side by side.

[Cole Kushna]

It's such a. I mean, this is fucking ridiculous because. What are we doing? Okay. Phenomenal.

[Charles Holmes]

Now play stickers.

[Cole Kushna]

This is so ridiculous. Okay, we go. Let me get to the good part. Come on, dude. In a totally different way. That, to me, is what? Like, just as powerful, if not more.

[Charles Holmes]

This is like, you already know. You know your soul. Which one you want to pick?

[Cole Kushna]

Sand Castles is so good, though. I feel like I'm letting Beyonce down right now. Best moment also has to be summer jam. No.

[Charles Holmes]

What?

[Cole Kushna]

Lemonade Shifted the entire. What are you talking about?

[Charles Holmes]

All right. Can I.

[Cole Kushna]

What are you talking about?

[Charles Holmes]

I literally can go outside and be like, oh, I just put you on the Summer Jam. So Screen. That's a moment. That is a moment. It's. You can Disney.

[Cole Kushna]

The Lemonade moment was, like, global. I get the hip hop lore of Summer Jam.

[Charles Holmes]

But, like, he brought out Michael Jackson. You know what I'm saying? Like, J Ho brought out Michael Jackson, bro.

[Cole Kushna]

I mean, to be fair to that moment, like, that moment would be way bigger in the era of social media. Oh, my God. Can you imagine?

[Charles Holmes]

I actually. But if I can give you one to your point, to me, to me, the limit is Summer Jam is bigger. But globally, in terms of just like that moment for Beyonce, all of the lists she made in terms of the number one album of the 21st century, I can't see on a global scale how the Lemonade was bigger. But the hip hop head in me, like, I was a kid. I was a kid in 2001 when this shit happened in Jersey. And this, like, I barely knew Jayce from, like, it was just like he was the guy that was on fucking bet and that she still got back to me. We were still talking about that. No social media, no whatever.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, that's true. But.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, I'll give you Lemonade.

[Cole Kushna]

Give me lemonade drop. Come on. It's got to be that. Okay, so we got biggest song, we're given to Jay.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

Worst song, we're given to Beyonce wins because she's not the worst song. Best deep cut J. Best moment bae. So we're tied. We have to debate. We have to. Someone's got to make the call on best song.

[Justin Sales]

Can I ask if the Kanye element. Because is Kanye. Kanye without the blueprint, does he become. Does he get there?

[Charles Holmes]

That would also, I think, be.

[Cole Kushna]

But we already honored that with Izzo.

[Charles Holmes]

But what I will say is that if you're talking about music in the 21st century, to Justin's point, if you take the Jenga piece of, like, Kanye's influence of Heart of the City of Izzo, of this. If you take that Jenga piece out of the 21st century conversation, it collapses. It falls apart. If you take freedom out of the 21st century, not that much changes. And I know that sounds bad, but, like, influential wise, like, it goes.

[Cole Kushna]

I get your point. Point. So here's a more interesting question. Let's say in theory. I give it to you. Yes. Are you comfortable with the blueprint going to the finale over lemonade? Is that Something you're going to stand on.

[Charles Holmes]

You know why I will stand on that? Because I would make the argument that Lemonade is not even the best album that Beyonce released.

[Cole Kushna]

This is the most important, I think.

[Charles Holmes]

But the bet, like, here's. I can make a case where it's like, you can make a case. Like, Blueprint might not be my favorite J record, but in terms of, like, I can make the case that the Blueprint. Because I was one of my whatchamacallit. One of my questions for you, for Jay was going to be, do you know where Jay ranks Blueprint in his entire discography? Because he did that. Do you remember that picture?

[Cole Kushna]

I do remember that. Yeah. But I don't remember where it was.

[Charles Holmes]

I though it was number two to him. It was reason in terms of his best albums. Like, and I'm not saying I don't believe Blueprint is number two for me. Like, that's not my ranking. But even Jay himself is like, no, no. Like, Blueprint is one of the most important things I did as a record. And I'm like, if we're talking about R and B, who.

[Cole Kushna]

Who's the most important artist in the 21st century, Beyonce or Jay Z? You want me to be real alien drops on earth? Who represents the 21st century?

[Charles Holmes]

I think it's Jay. I can make it. So make the case for Beyonce.

[Cole Kushna]

Everything we just talked about as someone, like, has entered that space of a prince, of a, Beatles of A. It's like she's at that echelon now where I don't. I love Jay. I hate even arguing against him. But to me, Beyonce is like. Like the. If you even. Even. Maybe even over Kendrick, I would put Beyonce historically.

[Charles Holmes]

My argument for Jay is that if we're talking about what artists encapsulate the 21st century, not just the good, not just the artistic, but the ills, like Jay Z. When we look about where. We look at where he started from Reasonable doubt, when we look at him going from a street hustler, a. A rapper who is like, behind the shadow of Biggie, and then where he's gotten into this hyper capitalist Roc nation mogul, we're like, oh, that's where music went. And I'm not saying that that's a good thing, but I'm saying the Blueprint is the type of project. When you look at the context of music in the 21st century, Jay Z predicted it. It's not just enough. And like, if we're being honest, honest. Beyonce learned from Jay Z. Beyonce's Career and the arc of it and her turning, her taking her power back and turning from, hey, I wrote dangerously in love to oh, no, no, no. I'm a mogul now. I am a business. I am selling. I have an Adidas line. I have this. I have that. You're going. I can go on tour every other year and break records. Did it, did it da. She learned from Jay Z. All for. For good and ill. And when I look back at the blueprint and you're telling an alien, like, what is it to be a human in 2025? I'm like, yo, the devil that is Jay Z. The devil that is Jay Z. And that's why I love him. He's. That is an evil man. And I love me some hov. That's in the blueprint. Everything that we love and hate is in the blueprint.

[Cole Kushna]

For one, you can't credit Jay Z for all that. For Beyonce. I think she does that without him.

[Charles Holmes]

I'm not saying Beyonce would have. Beyonce was Beyonce before Jay. And I think after.

[Cole Kushna]

I mean, 444 and the introspection and the evolution of Jay Z that we got there doesn't happen without Beyonce. Beyonce made Lemonade first. Name me an emotional conceptual project from jay Z before 444. Like, it doesn't exist.

[Charles Holmes]

444 is also great.

[Cole Kushna]

It's great.

[Charles Holmes]

I'll find Jay Z records. It's an okay Jay Z record.

[Justin Sales]

Does the whole. Does the whole project need to be emotional or conceptual? Like, you must love me off of volume one.

[Cole Kushna]

Now I'm getting double teamed.

[Charles Holmes]

Is all right. Sales, you know? All right, here's the thing. As a hip hop head, you cannot tell me. Oh, dude, you can't tell me. Like, we're gonna leave the blueprint off, right? Lemonade.

[Cole Kushna]

Lemonade is the clear winner to me.

[Justin Sales]

We have to flip a coin because I cannot. Like, this is one where I cannot vote because I just think, like, I'm biased.

[Charles Holmes]

Can I ask you this? Which one has more cultural moments, Lemonade or Blueprint?

[Cole Kushna]

Lemonade. What if it.

[Charles Holmes]

No Blueprint.

[Cole Kushna]

Lemonade was a cultural. The whole thing was a cultural moment.

[Charles Holmes]

Takeover and the entire Nas beef.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, yeah, great point.

[Charles Holmes]

Izzo. Yep, bigger hit. Dropping on 9 11. Him still, like, fucking going crazy. Still sell. Like, there's, like, moments on this record. Like, even. What's the more iconic cover? The Blueprint. What's sold. Like, I'm almost positive didn't bl Blueprints probably outsold Lemonade.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, maybe, maybe. But this is not.

[Charles Holmes]

We gotta Take it all in totality.

[Cole Kushna]

Lemonade is just such clearly, like you put lemonade in a museum.

[Charles Holmes]

Like, that's not even the best. It is Beyonce record.

[Cole Kushna]

It really is, though. Like.

[Charles Holmes]

No, it's not. It's the. Whoa. It's ambitious.

[Cole Kushna]

We're talking about.

[Charles Holmes]

It's the most ambitious and not the best.

[Cole Kushna]

And the thing is, like, people don't understand how good the film is. Is why I'm losing this argument. Because if you had a really. And it's. Maybe it just needs to be out there more. But, like, to me, in my mind, and now I'm realizing that people that don't. Probably most people that don't have a familiarity or intimate familiarity with the film, that the film, to me is like a big part of this because it is the Gesamtuf Kunstwert. It is the total world that she built, which is just artistically. I'm sorry. I love Jay Z. I love the blueprint. It's just the bigger feat. And I think because Beyonce is the artist that I would choose over the two if forced. Like, that's why I'm pushing for it.

[Charles Holmes]

But it's not Last Film Standing. It's last Album Standing Can.

[Justin Sales]

All right, we know we have to do this for real because we have to get out of here.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. The.

[Justin Sales]

We are possibly realizing that we are headed toward a 2001 Bush versus Gore or 2000 Bush versus Gore situation where. Where Beyonce probably made the better overall album. But because of the way we did the voting of the songs, the Jay Z moments are just better. Can we agree that?

[Cole Kushna]

Right. Like, I'll agree to that.

[Charles Holmes]

I will agree with that.

[Justin Sales]

Okay. I have to right now attempt to make myself as unbiased as possible.

[Cole Kushna]

I like this.

[Justin Sales]

This is really difficult.

[Cole Kushna]

Difficult.

[Justin Sales]

This is really difficult for me. I think that it's. Charles, I'm. I'm sorry. I. I think that when you look at the total totality of the two records.

[Cole Kushna]

You'Re doing the right thing, Justin. You're doing the right thing.

[Charles Holmes]

I'm gonna tell you, Justin, right now, this is the most egregious thing that's ever happened in the Spotify studios. It legitimately is. It's just the foundational of everything that I understand about you in this place is just crumbling right now. People are going to. In the streets are going to be fucking rampaging.

[Justin Sales]

I am going to get out of here. I'm gonna get in my car that has Sirius XM currently tuned to Rock the Bells radio, and I'm gonn my.

[Cole Kushna]

Head in shame, we're calling it. Let's not belabor it.

[Justin Sales]

I think that, honestly, the thing I'm struggling with right now is picking the album that has Girls, Girls, Girls. The Girls Girls, Girls remix.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. Oh, great point. Excellent point. Excellent point.

[Justin Sales]

All I need.

[Charles Holmes]

You're also not picking the record that has one of the greatest diss tracks of all time.

[Cole Kushna]

But we struggled. We struggled to find a bad song on Lemonade. Maybe the highs aren't as high, but there's no lows. There's no girls, Girls, girls.

[Justin Sales]

How do we feel about the patriarchy?

[Cole Kushna]

You really want Jay Z and Kanye to advance? You're gonna pick Beyonce. You're gonna pick. Really?

[Charles Holmes]

All I'll say. All I'll say is this is exactly what the Woke Mind Virus is doing.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, he goes, all right. He goes all right.

[Charles Holmes]

On us. This is insane.

[Cole Kushna]

Get your red hat. Where's your red hat?

[Charles Holmes]

Bring it in this. All right. I want all everybody in the comments.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

To voice their displeasure at this moment. Real hip hop died today in the Ringer Studios, courtesy of one Cole Kushner and one Justin Sales.

[Cole Kushna]

We did the right thing, Charles. You'll thank me later. To quote Drake, should we tease next episode?

[Charles Holmes]

Fine.

[Cole Kushna]

You're so pissed.

[Charles Holmes]

I'm so mad. Right?

[Cole Kushna]

I'm two zero, by the way.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, first of all, you had my Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, and I had Drake. That was your choice. We had to get a Drake album there.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

But wow, a Jay Z album not making the end. All right. It's cool. It's fine.

[Cole Kushna]

So next episode two. Two children of. Well, it's.

[Charles Holmes]

Well, one legend and one annoying little goblin. Okay, you see what I did there?

[Cole Kushna]

I see what you did. Nice flip.

[Charles Holmes]

Okay, you know, one is what I would say, a masked savant.

[Cole Kushna]

The other is a child of that savant.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

I'm very excited. So, guys, guys, thank you for this very contentious episode. If you cannot tell, I might not show up next next week. Thank you to our producer, Kevo. You know what I'm saying? Rocking behind the boards. Thank you. Who else are we thanking? Justin for stabbing me in the back.

[Cole Kushna]

All right, we'll see you next week.

[Charles Holmes]

See you next. All right, time for cultural exchange. This time, we're doing things a little bit differently. We're each going to pick our personal picks for the greatest albums of the 21st century, the stuff that, hey, didn't make the. The actual show.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

But the twist here is that I'm giving you the records. I like to try to get you to get one in. In the final Royal Rumble, we're doing the same. I received Lord's melodrama. You received Future's Monster. Who wants to go first?

[Cole Kushna]

I'll go first because can I say, I fucking love this record.

[Charles Holmes]

Really?

[Cole Kushna]

It's so good. It's so good.

[Charles Holmes]

That's the most surprising thing I've heard.

[Cole Kushna]

I know. I'm surprised myself how much I liked it. It's like, caveat being you listen too hard to the lyrics. If you try to do what I do with music, it's just, you know, kind of there's nothing there for me in that. That side of the world. But in terms of just energy, in terms of innovation, I like. I guess I took for granted Future Sound and what he's contributed to, like, the evolution of hip hop, but, like, going back to it, making comparisons with his earlier work, trying to find an influence that was like, where. Yeah. Who was. Who was he influenced to create this sound? And not really finding anything at all in terms of, like, what he's doing is really, really new. That's what really struck out to me this time around was like. And really, like, I've never really sat down to listen to an entire Future project, like. Like, I did for this. And it kind of reminded me of, like, what Playboy Carti's doing now. If you love it or hate it. Like, he's contributing something new to the genre in a way that I think Future was doing back then. And. And I feel like the product is a lot of the success of this album and Future as an artist at this era was because he found Metro. Did he kind of crystallize the Future sound with this project historically, or was it already kind of there?

[Charles Holmes]

No, I think this was when Future drops Monster, the thing that you were describing, which is, like, Future came on the scene with. I first remember listening to him on Racks. Do you remember that song Rax? On Racks, On Racks. Got Racks. Like, to your point, when Monster comes out, there was a Future sound. The Dirty Sprite, mixtapes to everything. But it had not really coalesced into anything that you could really point towards. Because his first debut project was very poppy. It had songs like Turn Off, Turn on the Lights, like that Honest, Very, very poppy. Monster was when he's going back to the Dungeon Family, Meathead, I'm a fucking monster, the Sierra of it all. And I think what you're locating is, to me, what electric guitar was to rock music, is what Auto Tune became to hip hop, which is like, to understand Future is to understand someone who's taking vocal production and showing you with the way that he's bending his voice, the things that he's rapping about like codeine. Crazy is a perfect example. You listen to Cody and Crazy, you're like, oh, this is one of the most important records of the 21st century. You could see how it influences all of Atlanta. You could see how it influences someone like Billie Eilish. You can. It's just like that type of alienation drug addled, just vibe. The best instrument that Future has is his voice. Even when the lyrics sometimes are very st. Like, just almost like a tone poem, the way he's singing them and the hurt. Like Throwaway is a perfect example of. You think Throwaway is just this normal song. The beat switches. He sings in this, like, almost falsetto of like. Of this girl, that other. Get it over with. He's just. It's. It's some of the most incredible music I've ever. I've ever experienced. So that's why I gave it to you.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. I mean, and that's like the. I think that's kind of a flaw of what I try to do with music. Too much sometimes is, like, intellectualized it and not giving credit to, like. I don't do a good enough job of giving credit, like, to the futures of the world who do make these important contributions to the genre. These are the kinds of artists that make. Make the genre alive. They're the ones. I mean, you need evolution, you need experimentation within the genre, or else it just becomes an archaic dead thing like rock music became. And so you have to honor artists like Future, the cartis of the world because they are contributing something totally new, at least to me. I couldn't. I. Can you find a reference point to, like, who does Future sound like before him? Like, I can't really think of some.

[Charles Holmes]

Futures coming up through the Dungeon family. So I think, like, there is. To me, you see the Andre influence, you see the Big Boy influence, you see the big Rube influence. Like, you can see he's also. You can see the influence of, like, Trap rappers who had come before him. Like Ti. Like Gucci, like, like.

[Cole Kushna]

But the sat. But Future sound is so distinct, though.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah, but you have to. You have to.

[Cole Kushna]

I get how it. It all is in there, but, like.

[Charles Holmes]

Well, all right, so, like, take, take, take. Jeezy. You know what I'm saying? Like, take Trap or die. Take the. The gruffness of his voice, the. Yeah, the Gucci mane. Like, the thing that made Gucci Mane special wasn't Always that he was rapping the most intricate shit. Part of Gucci is a feeling. Part of Jeezy is a feeling. The ad libs, the. The claustrophobia of the trap of a literal. Like we are. When the trap. It is a thing where it's like, oh, no, there's no way to get out. This is a cul de sac. Like all of that. What makes Future so good? The reason Pusha T, the reason Kendrick want to work with him is because it took TI Jeezy Gucci. They're still. Even though I. Everything I said about their ad libs and their penchant for all of that shit, what Future does is he cuts away the fat. I don't actually need that many bars to describe to you, right. What is like to sell drugs in Atlanta. I don't need to give you that. Like, everything that you're getting from me is coming from the tone of my voice, the melody, the thing that I'm building. It's not necessarily his.

[Cole Kushna]

His melodic intuition is so good.

[Charles Holmes]

It's so.

[Cole Kushna]

It's like we talked about, like, Drake's melodic intuition and the way he's able to fluidly kind of toe the line between singing and rapping. I feel like Future does it even better.

[Charles Holmes]

Is it time for melodrama, Lord?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. I'm afraid that you're not gonna be as glowing as I am to.

[Charles Holmes]

Not as glowing. But remind me the year 2017.

[Cole Kushna]

I wanna say this record.

[Charles Holmes]

Reminds me of 2017 to such an extent. And what I mean by that is, I believe Lorde was either living in New York or. I remember when she dropped this, there were a lot of press photos of the places that she was staying and all of this. And because I was working in music journalism at the time and because I know how important this was to a lot of the people that I worked with, I always had a difficult relationship to it because this record reminds me of an era so much. And that's actually like. That's a supreme, like, compliment where I was like, oh, this is called Melodrama. Because she's being so. Like. It is that dumb thing when we walked in, we're like, it's called Lemonade because she's making lemons out of lemonade. I was like. It took me a while to get into the record because I'm like, Lord and I are a similar age.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

This is how it felt coming of age at that time in social media, falling out of love, being in shitty relationship. And I did not understand why this record meant so Much to the women in my life at the time. And now going back to it, I had a deeper appreciation of it because I think what Lorde is able to do, what Charli XCX is able to do, what Taylor is able to do, is encapsulate this difficult time not just for women pop stars, for just women in general in terms of like, the demands of social media, the demands of like this complex of like, have to be perfect all the time. And yeah, it was a difficult. It was a difficult listen in the greatest way possible. I actually. Even if this music isn't for me, I got why you liked it. Like, I understood. I was like, oh, she's such a great lyricist. She's everything that. Like the same stuff that we championed for Beyonce. I was like, oh, this is. This is a really well put together record.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. And it's also the sound of it. This is her and Jack Antonoff. This is post 19, 1989 Taylor Swift and Jack Antonoff when he. I think he was still making really interesting music, which I can't say exactly the same. Now are we.

[Charles Holmes]

Do we have the same Jack Antonoff opinions?

[Cole Kushna]

Which is.

[Charles Holmes]

One of the most, like, I can tell why artists love working with him. Super, super talented technically. I cannot take anything away from him.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

I think he has been a blight on pop music where I think people go to Jack Antonoff because I just do think he's probably one of the best collaborators you can have. And terms of being like, this is my idea. This is what I want to achieve. Help me achieve it. And I think Jack Antonoff is very, very good as a musician, being able to lock into it. But sometimes I feel like his. His music leaves me a little cold. It leaves me a little wanting. I don't necessarily feel.

[Cole Kushna]

I think. Yeah, I mean, I think he had a prime and I think he became the go to guy and I think he became Spread Too thin is kind of.

[Charles Holmes]

And it seems like the product has been stepped on.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

But this is where.

[Cole Kushna]

When this is him and his priority prime for sure. I think.

[Charles Holmes]

Exactly. And it's just. Yeah, going back to this record, I just was. I was just like, oh, this is like this was of a piece Lord. I think the thing that Lord was so good. Like, if I think of like the women pop stars, if we take Beyonce out of it, who are the most important to maybe the last 10 years of music. This is in no direct order. It would be Lord Word, Charlie xcx, Lana sza. And people will be mad at me if like, if I don't put Taylor in them in there. But, like, all of those artists, to me, do the thing where I'm just like. I was listening to some of the lyrics, and I was just like, oh.

[Cole Kushna]

All of them work with Jack. Catch up, I think. I don't know if SZA has. But. Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Except wait, SZA has two as well.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, she has, like, okay.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah. This is. Surprise me the way the. I'm not describing it that well, but the best way I can describe it is I'm like, oh, this isn't for white girls. Am I wrong?

[Cole Kushna]

I can see that. This. I was like, oh, it's very centered in, like, the white experience, that's for sure.

[Charles Holmes]

This is like. I was like, oh. And the way that I can connect to, like, s. Control, because I'm like, was she singing about, like, some guy? I was just like, yeah, okay.

[Cole Kushna]

And that. I'm glad that you liked it, but that's a perfect transition to my next one for you. You. When's the last time that you listened to. Speaking of Beyonce and Solange, Solanges a seat at the table. Have you returned to this record?

[Charles Holmes]

I never at this.

[Cole Kushna]

I know you didn't. That's why I'm giving it to you. To return to you. Like, so when's the. Like, when's the last time you listened to it? When it came out in, like, 2015 or something?

[Charles Holmes]

Like, this is.

[Justin Sales]

Sorry, guys, I had to cut in on this. This is real insult to injury after the whole Jay Z Beyonce thing to give him Solange.

[Cole Kushna]

Seated table is great.

[Charles Holmes]

Whoa. Seated the table is a great record. It's a great record. I understand why people love Solange, but once again, also in the same way that Lord was. When I was a music journalist in New York, there was a. There was a certain type of Solange fan back then where I was like, all right, bro, take off the fucking brunch hats. I have. I've had a. Enough. I've had enough. Do I. You want to go see blood? No, nigga, I don't want to see blood orange. Get out of my face.

[Cole Kushna]

All right, well, I. I hope. I hope you enjoy it a little bit more.

[Charles Holmes]

This. Look at me. So mad at me.

[Cole Kushna]

What are you giving me? What are you giving me.

[Charles Holmes]

In honor? I'm almost positive this was the record that I gave you in honor of this episode.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

I'm giving you the male version of Lemonade.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

Usher's Confessions.

[Cole Kushna]

I believe this is like. Did Usher's Confessions inspire the cultural exchange? Because you've definitely given it to me. I've given it to you once, season one. But now I have to listen to it as like potentially to make the finale of one of the greatest.

[Charles Holmes]

This is literally, I'm telling you, I fought for usher's confessions to be one of the records in the actual episode. Episode. Usher's confessions is a top 10 album of all time. Y' all are bugging. You're crazy.

[Cole Kushna]

You're.

[Charles Holmes]

Y' all are bugging.

[Cole Kushna]

Who else is saying that, Charles?

[Charles Holmes]

Everyone.

[Cole Kushna]

Who?

[Charles Holmes]

The same people who love hov the same people. I'm done.

[Cole Kushna]

Is this true, though? Hold on one second.

[Charles Holmes]

It's.

[Justin Sales]

He's not entirely wrong.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, God.

[Justin Sales]

He's not entirely like.

[Charles Holmes]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Cole Kushna]

We'll save it. We'll save her for. We'll save it for next week. All right, I'll listen again in good earnest. I'm looking forward to it.

[Charles Holmes]

Thank you.

[Cole Kushna]

All right, peace.