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- [00:00]
Cole Kushna
This episode is presented by so delicious Dairy Free. We listen to music to free our minds. But are you ready to dairy free your mind? This summer, discover so delicious Dairy Free frozen desserts. With so many next level flavors that are 100% dairy free and unbelievably creamy. Your taste buds will do a double take as you figure out your ultimate flavor. Is it salted caramel cluster or chocolate cookies and cream? Cookie dough or coconut? Vanilla bean or even mint chip or the classic vanilla? Find out@sodeliciousdairyfree.com Foreign welcome, everyone, to Last Song Standing. I'm Cole Kushna.
- [00:40]
Charles Holmes
And I'm Charles Holmes. And today, the LWS boys are back with our fourth season. But this time, we have a twist. On this show, Cole and I typically argue our way through an artist's entire catalog in order to crown their single greatest song of all time, AKA the last song Standing. Season one covered Kendrick Lamar. Season two was on Frank Ocean. And in our most recent season, we debated outkast, where we ended up crowning their best song ever.
- [01:07]
Cole Kushna
But 2025 marks the quarter point of the 21st century. So this season, instead of searching for an artist's greatest song, we're asking an even bigger question. What is the greatest album of the 21st century so far?
- [01:19]
Charles Holmes
Over the next eight episodes, we'll be pitting classic albums head to head, tournament style. We're covering everyone. I'm talking about Jay Z, Tyler, the creator, Daft Punk, Beyonce, Radiohead, MF Doom, and more will fight to the death until we can agree on the best album of the past 25 years. We'll go into more detail about the format later. But Cole, it's been a while. First of all, you're glowing.
- [01:43]
Cole Kushna
Oh, thank you.
- [01:44]
Charles Holmes
Your skin is always glowing. But do you want to give anybody some tips?
- [01:47]
Cole Kushna
Oh, okay. So my 10 year old daughter is absolutely obsessed with skincare right now.
- [01:52]
Charles Holmes
For real.
- [01:52]
Cole Kushna
I take her to Sephora, like every weekend.
- [01:55]
Charles Holmes
She has Sephora. You mean Sephora Sephora. You are Kendrick. Dad. You are like Sephora.
- [02:02]
Cole Kushna
And she wants to make a makeup tutorial, YouTube channel and everything. Everything. And so she's got me on a five step skincare routine.
- [02:08]
Charles Holmes
For real. I'm on a five step skincare routine as well.
- [02:11]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, you look great too.
- [02:13]
Charles Holmes
Hey, you want to know who else is looking really, really great?
- [02:16]
Cole Kushna
Who?
- [02:17]
Charles Holmes
Our man, J.S. justin. Sales in the back. How are you, Justin?
- [02:20]
Justin
I'm doing great, guys. Happy to be here. Just let me say at the beginning of the season, don't screw this up. You got to get it right.
- [02:27]
Charles Holmes
People are still mad at us about the outcast. Like, sometimes I'll get, like, people in the office being like, you picked the wrong.
- [02:34]
Cole Kushna
I think we picked the right one.
- [02:37]
Charles Holmes
We're always right. We've never been wrong. All right, Cole, do you want to go over kind of, like, the structure of the season, the rules? We're keeping it kind of similar to other seasons, but with a few, you.
- [02:48]
Cole Kushna
Know, little twists, little twigs. Yeah, it's, you know, quarter century mark. I thought he'd switch it up in season four. So we'll read the rules for the structure of this season. It's every episode. Charles and I will each nominate one album we think should be in contention for the 21st century's best. Each album gets its own segment where we'll revisit its release, nominate its best and worst songs, and make a case for why it's considered one of the best albums of the last 25 years. Then, at the end of the episode, the two albums go head to head, and Charles and I will debate until we can agree on one winning album.
- [03:21]
Charles Holmes
The winning album from each episode advances to the season finale, Royal Rumble. That's where Cole and I will face off one last time, eliminating albums one by one until we crown the greatest album of the 21st century, the last album standing. Before we get into the season, though, Cole, let's, like, walk the audience through how we went about picking some of these albums, because I think it's like, in all the meetings we had, it was a mixture of what albums are we fans of, but what also are cultural touchstones or albums that are big enough? Because I think every single time that we've talked about last long standing, we kind of use that if a Martian comes down to earth, what is gonna be the song that would explain an artist the best? And I think we kind of use a similar framework for albums.
- [04:10]
Cole Kushna
I think so. I mean, it's an impossible task. And, you know, I think part of this was condensing the genre focus. So you'll see with our selections throughout the season that it's mostly in the dissect wheelhouse of hip hop and R and b. Although I am excited that we have a few episodes that are totally outside of those genres.
- [04:27]
Charles Holmes
Some rock, some electronic, a little pop. And then we also have some, you know, some stuff we can get our little picks in where it's like, there are a lot of albums that we discuss where we were. Like, these are personal favorites for us, but we also want to be real, like, Sometimes just because an album is great and perfect and special, like Usher's Confessions. Yeah, it could be a little. You know, some of the newer kids might be like, look at, oh, I would love to talk about Usher's Confessions for an hour. I'm not gonna lie.
- [04:56]
Cole Kushna
Well, we're gonna save some of those personal picks for the stinger for the cultural exchange, so stay tuned for that at the end of the episode. But yeah, I think. I mean, I have no problem focusing on hip hop and R and B, because in my mind, as a music historian, hip hop and R and B is the most. This is the most important genre of the century.
- [05:14]
Charles Holmes
Yes.
- [05:14]
Cole Kushna
I think the most interesting things are happening within that space. So if this was.
- [05:19]
Charles Holmes
If we were doing this show in the 90s, if they had podcasts in the 90s, I think it probably would have been a lot more rock focused. But since we're talking about, you know, the quartermark of the 21st century, to your point, you really can't tell this story without telling the rise of hip hop. And I think specific types of hip hop finally becoming the genre that rules over not only the charts, but just like, culture in general, movies, tv, everything.
- [05:46]
Cole Kushna
Exactly.
- [05:47]
Charles Holmes
So do we want to kind of get into our first two albums for.
- [05:50]
Cole Kushna
Dude, I'm kind of nervous.
- [05:51]
Charles Holmes
Very frost.
- [05:53]
Cole Kushna
It's kind of a cursed episode, but we're just jumping right in. I'm going to go with, unarguably, one of the greatest albums of the 21st century, probably one of the greatest albums of all time. Kanye West, My beautiful Dark twisted fantasy.
- [06:06]
Charles Holmes
I, to no one's surprise, is going with Kanye's frenemy, the light skinned goat himself. Drake's sophomore album, take care. The system broken, the school's closed, the prisons open. They know, they know, they know, they know, they know, they know. It's time. Toast for the douchebags. Let's have a toast for the asshole. She look like a star but only on camera. Only on camera. Put your hands to the constellation the way you look should be a sin you my sensation one time been in love one time you and all your girls in the club one time Also convinced me. All right, Cole, I think we. What I want people to understand, especially as we go through this season, is that we try to actually be as intentional as possible with the pairings of albums we're choosing. And definitely I wanted to not only kind of tell a story about the 21st century, but sometimes a story about these artists. So to you, why do you think it makes sense to pair Kanye Drake. My beautiful Dark, Twisted Fantasy would take care of.
- [07:15]
Cole Kushna
I mean, arguably. It's painful to say, but, I mean, I think these are the two artists that had arguably the most influence on the genre in these past couple decades. I think, unequivocally, Kanye. Yes. But we have to give Drake his credit, too, in terms of setting hip hop on a totally different trajectory. And I think these are two massive, highly influential artists that also share some of the same flaws. And as their legacy has continued, obviously there's been kind of diminishing returns on both of them. So it seems like a natural pairing. Also, obviously, Drake is a child of Kanye. Very much so. I think Take Care shows some of the influence of, you know, in my mind, at this point, 2010, 2011, in hip hop, we're starting to move away from the kind of maximalism that reached its pinnacle in Twisted Fantasy, or I.
- [08:10]
Charles Holmes
Would even say Reese's pinnacle, and Watch the Throne, where that was like the. That was the album that Kanye has revealed. They were trying to kind of, like, go against. Not go against Drake, but show that, like, hey, we still are here. And Take Care is one where I'm just like, is almost. Is maximalist in a lot of ways, but sonically is a departure.
- [08:29]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, I mean, to me, Take Care is perfect for this exercise because it is a bridge album between the two sounds. Because from this point on, with Nothing the same, his following album, the Drake sound, really starts to dominate mainstream hip hop, and we go away from the maximalism and into this minimalist, like, underwater sound that Drake and 40 really helped develop it and push through. So the pairing makes sense in my mind.
- [08:55]
Charles Holmes
It makes sense in my mind as well. And I think we're gonna get this out up front. The reason I also think that these projects make sense to talk about is because you can't really talk about the 21st century without discussing the effect that it's had on our biggest artists. And I think with Dark Fantasy and Take Care of both albums narratively, I think are dealing with the struggles of celebrity culture. Celebrity culture at the dawn of social media. And obviously, Kanye has had a rough stretch, and we are not here to celebrate all of the hateful things he said. But I do think that when I went back to listen to Dark Fantasy, I was like, oh, this was the beginning of an end, where this is the type of album that's so good that it's literally gave him over 10 years of goodwill, where we were kind of just like, nah, that's not really Kanye. That's not really, Kanye. And now we're like, no, that's Kanye. And I think Take Care in a similar way, is an album where I would put take Care in this, because the Internet, you're starting to get all these artists who are coming of age, in an age of Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, starting to come to grips with this hyper alienation of constantly being in connection with each other, knowing what your fans think, think of you. Everybody thinks you constantly. And while I think this is a celebration of the music of that time, I want it to be up front, like, yeah, yeah. Both of these. Both of these artists in different ways are very fraught. And we know that.
- [10:34]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. I mean, with Kanye especially, I think for this exercise, it's. It's more about trying to remove ourselves from the. And, like, historic. We're looking historically at the past 25 years. And so everyone that knows anything about music understands Kanye's importance. So are you familiar with the composer Richard Wagner? He's the German composer. You've probably heard Ride of the Valkyries.
- [10:59]
Charles Holmes
Oh, yeah, no, you've played me some on past seasons. Yes, yes, yes.
- [11:03]
Cole Kushna
And essentially, I'm starting to view Kanye more and more like him because Wagner was the most important composer and musician of the 20th century. He was also a rabid anti Semite. And so historically, it's like, it's. It's the same thing where it's like, you have to credit the contribution to music, but it also comes with the baggage of, you know, some mental health stuff, some racism, some. All this. So it's complicated. But I think we're here. I think. I think listeners will understand why it's here, why we're talking about these albums, especially Kanye.
- [11:37]
Charles Holmes
And so, again, I also think, lastly, I think what listeners will hear is that, to me, for the future of music, I do think it is important to go back to projects and be like, okay. Cause there's a lot in these projects where I'm like, oh, this is way more misogynistic. Or this is way more. Like, when we were listening to it back then, I think it was like, oh, this isn't how they really feel. This is just right. I go back and be like, oh, okay. So we probably.
- [12:06]
Cole Kushna
That's the interesting thing about both of these artists is because in so many ways, especially early on in their career, they pushed masculinity in hip hop in a new direct. Like, yeah, Kanye was outspoken about, you know, the queer community in terms of, like, we should. Hip hop needs to be more accepting of the queer community. Drake showed vulnerability in a genre that was hyper masculine, and he wasn't afraid to sing and show emotion. And then it's like now, 10, 15 years later, we're just like, what happened?
- [12:35]
Charles Holmes
What happened to the vulnerability?
- [12:37]
Cole Kushna
What happened to the sensitivity?
- [12:38]
Charles Holmes
I think the vulnerability and the sensitivity was important, but it definitely, definitely led to insult. Like, I'm just like. These records at that time did not sound very incel y. But there are moments where I'm like, oh, this is where patience here. Up for everything. But now that we got through that, it's time for our first deep dive.
- [12:56]
Cole Kushna
All right, we gotta go with the first album. Let's start with 2010's My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy. I'll start with just some basic album facts on Twisted Fantasy, released on November 22, 2010, sells 496,000 copies in the first week, which may be lower than Drake's Taking Care, which shockingly wins three Grammy awards. Essentially universal acclaim, spawns four official singles and Power, Runaway Monster and All the Lights. And I think the conversation with this record has to start. As much. As much as I don't want to talk about it, it has to start with the VMAs.
- [13:33]
Charles Holmes
Yo, Taylor, I. I'm really happy for you. I'm let you finish. But Beyonce had one of the best videos of all time. One of the best videos of all time.
- [13:47]
Cole Kushna
The Taylor Swift intercedent spawns this entire album. I don't know if you remember your reaction to the VMAs. Do you remember in real time all the hoopla that happened after?
- [14:00]
Charles Holmes
I'm not proud to say this, but at this time, I was just like. I was such a hyper Kanye fan. I was like, yo, fuck, Taylor. Who cares?
- [14:08]
Cole Kushna
That was me, too.
- [14:09]
Charles Holmes
I was like, who cares? Because also, I will say this, there was a level of racism undergirding the whole moment where I was just like, no, Connie is an asshole. Connie was an asshole for doing that. I will admit that. I admitted that then. I admit it now. He was drunk. He should not have done that. He took away Taylor's moment. But there was a level of me where I was like a. This is the VMAs, and y' all are acting like this is the Nobel Peace Prize. Right?
- [14:34]
Cole Kushna
Right.
- [14:35]
Charles Holmes
You know, like, I was just like. There was a moment where I. I don't know if you remember. It was on the news. People were ready to kill him. It was like. But this was also, to me, around that time, where the media actually did not. The media never knew how to discuss very famous black people but, like, Dave Chappelle was going through something very similar when he wanted to go to Africa. People were acting like, how dare you? And I just remember, like, as a young hip hop fan, being like, the punishment does not seem to fit the not crime.
- [15:07]
Cole Kushna
You know, I liked. I loved it, actually. Just, if I'm being honest. And in the moment, I was like, yeah, fuck the VMAs. Like, we need some anarchy in here. Like, it was exciting. Like, that was part of Kanye's appeal back then was that he would do stuff like that and he would shake it up a little bit. I mean, it's so funny to think back now how much backlash he got for it versus everything. Since this doesn't even crack the top five or top ten most egregious things Kanye has ever done.
- [15:32]
Charles Holmes
I feel like we forget that he even had, like, before you were like, oh, we gotta talk Taylor's. And I was like, oh, the Taylor incident. How quaint. Okay, how quaint. And this was something that we were getting mad at Kanye.
- [15:42]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, exactly. But, I mean, it does shape this entire album. So, like you said, like, it caused national controversy. He flees the country, literally. Goes to Japan, goes to Italy, goes to Rome, ends up settling in Hawaii, where a lot of twisted fantasy was recorded. He goes through an incredibly dark period here. I mean, he's drinking at the VMAs. He's still living in the hangover of his mom's passing. Yeah, I think a lot of. I don't think the VMA moment happens if. If his mom doesn't pass because he definitely. There's a tailspin after that incident, especially if, you know, the relationship between them and him or her being really the only grounding person in his life and the only person that can really talk sense to him. And so we get the tailspin of romantic breakup, of mother's passing, and then this huge incident, and he's essentially exiled from the country. And he said was very open about having suicidal thoughts at the time and essentially made this album. He has said this as if his life depended on it. And so, you know, you can hear that in the music. You can hear it in the approach in terms of just, like, someone hyper focusing on every single detail of every single song and making an album so good that he was going to essentially ingratiate himself back into the public consciousness by just making phenomenal music. And to his credit, he succeeded.
- [17:11]
Charles Holmes
Do you remember the. Do you remember, like, the rollout, which I think was also part of the journey of We Got Good Fridays where Kanye Would like, drop tracks in real time. Christian denim, Dior Flow. We would hear power. We heard the remix. We heard all of these. And then just there was this great, complex interview where Noah, who was running Complex at the time, went down to Hawaii to, like, document it. And I remember just the rollout of this album feeling so important to me. He. Even. When's the last time you watched Even the short movie that he did. It was just every single moment was so well thought out.
- [17:54]
Cole Kushna
And they're wearing suits and the. There's just so much lore around the album when you return to it. You know, they're just for those that don't know they all the producers were required to wear suits.
- [18:03]
Charles Holmes
The Rosewood movement.
- [18:04]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And, you know, he really had a vision of decadence for this whole thing. And that shows up in the artwork. It shows up in the. In dressing in suits and the music videos and all the visuals. Like, he was really world building in a way that he really hadn't before. I mean, he's always kind of world build with the Graduation series and a little bit with 808. But I feel like this is when he really starts. We see it in Yeezus Next and Pablo Next and the entire world around these albums. I think this is a large part where it comes from.
- [18:36]
Charles Holmes
But why not? Why not Yeezus would be my question. Because I. I would have rather picked Yeezus, but for this exercise, I was like, I feel like it has to be dark Fantasy because it just. Dark Fantasy, to this day just looms so large over popular music.
- [18:54]
Cole Kushna
I think so. I think Jesus is my favorite Kanye album. It's crazy that we agree. I would have thought that you would hate that album.
- [19:01]
Charles Holmes
No. Jesus is my fate. Like.
- [19:03]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [19:04]
Charles Holmes
Because I actually. Everything from the rawness to the production to every single, I actually think it is just. It's a tighter album.
- [19:13]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [19:13]
Charles Holmes
Going back to Dark Fantasy, I'm like, the highs of Dark Fantasy are very high.
- [19:17]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [19:17]
Charles Holmes
But there are some choices on it where I'm just like, this is very 2010.
- [19:21]
Cole Kushna
We've lived enough life 15 years post 2010 in this album coming out to understand its influence, its impact. It is. It's the one.
- [19:30]
Charles Holmes
Yeah.
- [19:30]
Cole Kushna
You know, I think in terms of hip hop production, the highs of this album, I still just don't think have been met by Kanye himself and by anyone else. I mean, there is just some moments on this album that it's just some of the greatest music I've ever heard.
- [19:45]
Charles Holmes
Oh, I could not agree more. But with all that being said, are we ready for our favorite. Our favorite section?
- [19:50]
Cole Kushna
I'm ready for some trivia.
- [19:52]
Charles Holmes
Trivia. This is where Cole and I attempt to stump each other with little known facts about the album. Every correct answer is one point, and whoever has the most total points at the end of the season wins a mystery prize selected by our producer, Justin. Justin, do you have the prize already picked out?
- [20:08]
Justin
I think I do.
- [20:10]
Charles Holmes
All right.
- [20:10]
Justin
I think I do. And I think they're personalized prizes for both of you.
- [20:14]
Cole Kushna
Okay?
- [20:14]
Justin
So bear with me.
- [20:17]
Charles Holmes
I'm work.
- [20:17]
Justin
I'm pulling some strings. That's the thing.
- [20:19]
Charles Holmes
You're pulling some strings.
- [20:20]
Justin
That's all I'm going to say. I'm pulling some strings.
- [20:22]
Cole Kushna
All right. You have to give us some hints as the season goes on. Okay. I'm intrigued. Personalized gifts.
- [20:30]
Charles Holmes
Okay. Cole, obviously you know about Good Fridays, the classic slate of songs that Connie was debuting every Friday. One song he debuted, though, was done in unorthodox way. Chain Heavy featuring Talib Kweli and Consequence. Where did Kanye debut that song? Live for the first time.
- [20:56]
Cole Kushna
Chain Heavy. With those. Was it with the guys or just solo? Do you remember?
- [21:01]
Charles Holmes
Just him. He did a performance. I want to know where he performed it. This was all over the blogs. It was written up heavily.
- [21:07]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, I like. It's like, I can see it. It's in my memory somewhere back there. Was it in Europe somewhere?
- [21:17]
Charles Holmes
It was in the Facebook offices.
- [21:19]
Cole Kushna
Oh, you remember standing on the table?
- [21:21]
Charles Holmes
Yes.
- [21:22]
Cole Kushna
Okay.
- [21:24]
Charles Holmes
They try to tell me my chain broke the levy maybe. Cause it's flooded. Why you walk around with a baby cross his cousin. My teeth already white. Y' all gonna make me feel. All right, so my next question for you, okay. In a classic complex interview, we. We got some photos, and I think even Kanye posted about studio rules. Do you remember the studio rules?
- [21:46]
Cole Kushna
I do. Yes.
- [21:47]
Charles Holmes
Now, in one of these rules, Kanye banned a specific instrument. What instrument did Kanye ban from the studio?
- [21:57]
Cole Kushna
God damn it. I know this one too.
- [22:00]
Charles Holmes
Oh, I'm about to get him on another one.
- [22:02]
Cole Kushna
These are really good questions. Was it Congo's or something?
- [22:10]
Charles Holmes
I'll give you one more, because if. If you. It's so obvious, and if you know Kanye's like, if you know what type of sound Kanye was in at that time, it makes complete sense.
- [22:21]
Cole Kushna
Okay.
- [22:22]
Charles Holmes
It's super obvious.
- [22:25]
Cole Kushna
Damn, I feel like a failure now. I don't know it.
- [22:28]
Charles Holmes
You got no acoustic guitars.
- [22:30]
Cole Kushna
Oh, okay.
- [22:32]
Charles Holmes
Does that make sense?
- [22:33]
Cole Kushna
It makes sense. Yeah. I may probably make more sense back then. It's such a. Such a Weird rule, but.
- [22:38]
Charles Holmes
It's such a weird rule. But when you listen to my beautiful dark, twisted fantasy, like. Like. Because it's. What's funny is I'm like, there's electric guitar in here. You know what I'm saying? Mike Dean is shredding on Devil in a New Dress. But for him to be like, no acoustic guitar is.
- [22:54]
Cole Kushna
No folksy. No. Yeah, this is grand. This is majestic. What is the antithesis of that? A little dinky acoustic guitar?
- [23:03]
Charles Holmes
I don't know. Here's the thing. I know the people at home are.
- [23:06]
Cole Kushna
Gonna be like, I feel like I left people down. I'm sorry.
- [23:08]
Charles Holmes
I'm so sorry.
- [23:10]
Justin
There's another rule, though, and there's a bunch of them here, right?
- [23:14]
Charles Holmes
There's. Can you read the best rules out loud?
- [23:16]
Justin
Yeah, there's a bunch of them. There's no tweeting. It's listed twice. Just shut the fuck up sometimes. All laptops on mute. No blogging, which no problem in 2025, but back then, that was an issue. No negative blog viewing. Shout out gawker. Don't tell anyone anything about anything. We are doing great. No pictures. All these make sense. My favorite one here, though. No hipster hats.
- [23:43]
Charles Holmes
Oh, yeah, I remember. Yeah. No hipster.
- [23:47]
Cole Kushna
This was the day. The days of the, like, long, deep V necks.
- [23:51]
Charles Holmes
Wait, was this before. Wait, did the. Did the hats with the don C. Terrible. Like, remember when we were wearing the dancy hats with the fucking snake skin on the brim you were wearing? I never owned one. I never. Wait, you never had one of those hats?
- [24:06]
Cole Kushna
No, come on. I was more of the American Apparel hipster. Exactly who he was probably talking about the deep V. I was at the beanie that was pulled back like.
- [24:14]
Charles Holmes
You know what I mean?
- [24:15]
Cole Kushna
That was.
- [24:16]
Charles Holmes
All right, this is actually my last question because we have to move on. Of all of the Kanye fashion trends that he introduced, which one has aged the worst? Cause I think my personal pick. The shutter shades look so, like. The shutter shades are terrible, but they're.
- [24:34]
Cole Kushna
So iconic to the.
- [24:35]
Charles Holmes
They're so iconic.
- [24:35]
Cole Kushna
Remember how cool they. Like, when he put those on? It's like, fuck, that's so cool.
- [24:39]
Charles Holmes
The first time when, like, we saw. We were like, We've never seen anything like that. And now you look back at it. Cause it was like, you go to, like, Hot Topic, and then they started selling the knockoffs, and it just got so.
- [24:50]
Cole Kushna
For me, it's the skinny jeans with the big shirt. He didn't invent that style, but he really helped catapult it And I didn't go as extreme as him, but I was dipping my toes into that world. And looking back, man, oh, that looks terrible. That's terrible.
- [25:08]
Charles Holmes
Well, to everyone out there, you know, I'll do better.
- [25:12]
Cole Kushna
I'm sorry. I'll do better. Let's move on. Let's move on. Next category.
- [25:17]
Charles Holmes
All right. For each album this season, we're running through the same five categories. Biggest song, best song, worst song, best deep cut, and best moment at the end of the episode. These five categories from each album will go head to head in order to determine which album wins the episode and earns a spot in the season finale Royal Rumble. All right, Cole, can you take us away?
- [25:40]
Cole Kushna
First category is biggest song. So this one was kind of tough. So what is your perception? It's either power or all of the lights. If you go by streams, it's actually power. Now, at this moment, I don't know if streams are indicative of a 2010 album, though. And power has a lot of syncs. You hear it at stadiums. You hear it on commercials. But I want to say, is all the Lights is the bigger song? I don't know.
- [26:07]
Charles Holmes
No, it has to be power.
- [26:08]
Cole Kushna
You think so?
- [26:08]
Charles Holmes
I will say power is. To your point, there was a moment in time, it's still happening. Where you could not watch a movie trailer without hearing power like it is. That's the. I would say my beautiful, dark, twisted fantasy, Yeezus and Watch the Throne have to be some of the most synced music of the last fucking of the 21st century. And to me, that's why it has to be power. Because to your point, I still hear fucking power at baseball games, at this, at that. I'm living in that 21st century doing something mean to it. Do it better than anybody you ever seen do it. If you would have told me power was going to be the song off this album that became this ubiquitous, I would have been like, really?
- [26:53]
Cole Kushna
I think, well, okay. I think why it syncs so much, though, is because you get crowd chants. You get the. So it's like there's a natural crowd element, and then you get the claps. So it's like there's a lot of, like, interactive features in the production that in my mind, it makes sense because, yeah, if you want to play it at a stadium, you can. You can do that kind of interactive stuff. If you want to sync it to a movie, it has, like, the themes of power. It's like you could just imagine on a show, like, what's the HBO show? Succession, succession. You Know, it's like it has some of those rich qualities that a lot of, like these kind of prestige TV shows, like, explore. And so it makes sense in my mind. Although all the Lights seems like the one that would be synced more because it is like, that feels like a stadium anthem.
- [27:42]
Charles Holmes
At the time. Didn't Kanye say that he wanted all of the Lights to feel like remember the World? Wait, not remember the. What's the really bad fucking We Are the World? Like, he wanted to make his own version of We Are the World? Which is funny because I'm like, I feel like people forget Fergie is on this, which also dates the. Like, I like Black Eyed. Please. I love Fergie. But that's when we talk about the choices on this album. Fergie kind of like being on all the Lights. I was like, oh, fuck.
- [28:10]
Cole Kushna
Well, okay. I wrote down, down. I forgot how many people are on all the Lights. Speaking of, like the decadence of this album and trying to make something so phenomenal that, you know, he. That he couldn't deny that. That the public couldn't deny, and he'd get back into their good graces. Here's the list of all the features on all the Lights. Alicia Keys, John Lennon, John Legend, the Dream, Drake, Fergie, Kid Cudi. Elton John sings and plays piano. Ryan Leslie, Charlie Wilson, Tony Williams, Alvin Fields, Ken Lewis and Rihanna. So it's like he's putting together this star studded cast just to sing backup tracks. But it's like that's just one element. Then you think of the drums on all the Lights are just like some of the best drums.
- [28:52]
Charles Holmes
And then he had a remix that he never released.
- [28:54]
Cole Kushna
Did he?
- [28:55]
Charles Holmes
Yeah, there was a remix where, if I remember the lineup correctly, Drake gets a rap first.
- [29:01]
Cole Kushna
Okay, I remember this now.
- [29:02]
Charles Holmes
Big Sean got a rap verse and I'm almost positive Lil Wayne got a verse.
- [29:05]
Cole Kushna
Oh, wow.
- [29:06]
Charles Holmes
Yeah. And I'm like that to the decadence. I'm just like, he never released it, but I'm like, oh, there were other versions of this song. I think a lot of people were just like, yo, I've heard so many versions of all of the fucking.
- [29:15]
Cole Kushna
Well, all the songs on this album apparently went through like a ton of iterations. I was just reading the story of Runaway, which we'll probably talk about, but essentially that song transformed. Like, you hear some of the bare bones of these productions and just the way that he kept stacking elements, playing with arrangements, bringing in other producers to work on it. I mean, every. Every song was just approached with just immaculate attention to detail. And there's just like layers on layers. It's one of those albums that if you're really listening with headphones, you'll catch something new every time because it is just that layered and nuanced. Okay. But this power does bring me to my first dissectable, the most dissectible moment of the episode. Are you aware of the narrative of Twisted Fantasy?
- [30:02]
Charles Holmes
Very vaguely, and I've mostly forgotten it.
- [30:05]
Cole Kushna
Okay.
- [30:05]
Charles Holmes
So the like the phoenix motif.
- [30:08]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, that's part of it. You know, the fallen angel, all that stuff. But. And this is kind of my theory with my season on it. But I think it's right. Cause he has talked about that his albums aren't like concept albums in a Kendrick style, but they do have these more broad narrative arcs. And if you see the chalkboard that he did, or the white that he wrote, the track listing, I think it was for this album or if it was Life of Pablo. But he put it in acts. There's Act 1, Act 2, Act 3. And this is a three act structure and it's in the title. My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy lays out the actual. The acts. And it's kind of like this downward spiral. Essentially the album is his relationship to fame. Right. So the first three songs are the beautiful part of it. We get Dark Fantasy where he says, I used to dream about, fantasize about this back in Chicago. Talking about celebrity talk, talking about fame. We get gorgeous, we get power. All kind of him. Power is the best example of him kind of reaching that success. Right. But Power is also the song where it starts to fall and he kind of goes down the spiral, the Alice in the Wonderland spiral. And it's so the most dissectible moment that I'm going to point out to you. Have you? This is kind of one of the more famous theories of mine. So do you know about the so exciting line.
- [31:30]
Charles Holmes
I've never heard this.
- [31:31]
Cole Kushna
So there's a. On the end of the second verse, he says, taking my inner child, I'm fighting for custody. That lays out. That sets up the next song, all the Lights, where he talks about a custody battle with his inner child. With all these responsibilities that they entrust in me as I look down at my diamond encrusted piece. So this sets us up for some evocations of suicide. So diamond encrusted piece is not only a necklace, it is also a dying man encrusted piece, Jesus piece, but it also is a diamond encrusted piece, as in a gun Sounds like a reach until you go to verse three, where he says, I was drinking earlier. Now I'm driving where the bad bitches are. Where are you hiding? I got the power to make your life so exciting. So if you listen to so exciting, it starts to echo. And in the echo, so exciting transforms into something else. And I want to see if you can hear it. Suicide, suicide, suicide. Okay, which maybe still sounds like a reach until. What does he say right after in the outro? Now this will be a beautiful death. I'm jumping out the window. I'm letting everything go. So this is the moment in which everything falls out. This is the moment the sword of Damocles in the power video falls on his head.
- [33:01]
Charles Holmes
The transition from the beautiful to the.
- [33:03]
Cole Kushna
To the dark. And so we get what comes after death. Funeral music. So we get the all the lights interlude, which I interpret as funeral music. And what happens when you die? You see bright lights. All of the lights. And so this is where we start to get the darker side of fame, where Connie goes into monster and so appalled. And things get darker before this turns into a dissect episode. Were you dissected? Did you buy my so exciting suicide homophone?
- [33:36]
Charles Holmes
I've never been more dissected.
- [33:37]
Cole Kushna
Oh, really? Okay. All right.
- [33:39]
Charles Holmes
Like, I'm actually, like, not only impressed, I'm like. Like, this is like, I got it live. Like, most people don't get this, you know?
- [33:47]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, that was one of the. I mean, this season, I should just say, like, this season of dissect, season two is like, what made dissect what it is today. It was the one that was the breakout season. And I feel like this is the kind of stuff that when I started to discover this stuff with this album where I was like, fuck. Kanye is really that good. He really is thinking three dimensionally, and it's incredible. And then I'll talk about the. The last act, which is twisted when we get to hell. Hell of a life and stuff. But it's when you end. Like, for the listeners who don't know this theory, like, listen to the album as if it is a three act structure. As it. If. As if it is a relationship. Kanye's relationship to Fame, like, kind of conceptualized as an actual relationship. So every time he's talking about a woman on the album, think about that. Not like, not just as a woman, but as fame. And it makes a lot of sense when you. When you go through it that way.
- [34:41]
Charles Holmes
Best song. I feel like there's only one correct answer, so I'm very Interested to see what you.
- [34:45]
Cole Kushna
Is there one correct answer? Because I have two, and I don't know. I think the obvious answer is runaway, but Devil in a New Dress is right there.
- [34:54]
Charles Holmes
All right. No, really? Devil in a New Dress. First of all, people have already heard this hot take. I don't like Devil in a New Dress.
- [35:00]
Cole Kushna
Wait, what? Justin.
- [35:01]
Justin
Okay, so let me say I've been waiting. When we first announced that we were doing this, and we first announced that we were putting these two albums head to head, I was waiting for Charles to do this take live. When he came to the ringer, the first thing that he did was a bunch of my beautiful, dark, twisted fantasy 10 year anniversary content. Because back in 2020, and he made me have to really buy. I didn't know him that well. I was getting to know him, and I really had to buy into this Devil in a New Dress is awful theory.
- [35:39]
Charles Holmes
Whoa. It's not awful. I get that it's a good song. It just does nothing for me. I skip it every single time.
- [35:45]
Cole Kushna
What?
- [35:46]
Charles Holmes
I don't like it.
- [35:46]
Cole Kushna
Holy. That's the first hot take of the season. Holy shit.
- [35:51]
Charles Holmes
Personally, it's just. I just. I get. I get why people like it, but it's like, they're like, the Ross verse, the sample.
- [35:58]
Justin
Would you like it better if it was the Good Friday version?
- [36:03]
Charles Holmes
No. No. Okay.
- [36:05]
Cole Kushna
What is it about it specifically that doesn't resonate? The beat. You don't like the beat?
- [36:08]
Charles Holmes
You know, some people, when they eat cilantro, just taste. So sometimes, like, this is my cilantro. Like, I just. I don't know why. It's just something that hits my ears. I'm like, I don't eat this. I just don't need it. But here's the thing. I could say objectively, objectively, as a music critic, it is a great song. Like, I can tell when people are like, this is my favorite Kanye song ever. It's my favorite beat. Da da da da. I can tell why they're saying that. It's just not my thing.
- [36:33]
Cole Kushna
Okay. I was gonna. I was gonna ask you is. It's gonna sound outlandish. It might sound like a hot take. I was gonna ask you if the Rick Ross feature was the greatest feature of all time.
- [36:42]
Charles Holmes
The greatest feature of all time for.
- [36:45]
Cole Kushna
A very specific reason. And it's not actually Rick Ross himself or the verse that he lays down. It is the way that Kanye. I think it is the best red carpet anyone has ever gotten ever for a feature. Because when Rick Ross comes in, I forget he's on the song like almost every time. And so you go through an entire song, two verses in a chorus or whatever it is with Kanye, then you get this. And for. This is another reason, like why Kanye's brilliant, especially at this moment, this era, is because anyone else that gets this beat, it just stays a lo fi sample based beat, right? And they do a verse, chorus, verse, chorus, and they get in and out. It's just your kind of classic sample based production. But he makes this thing epic. And what a lot of it is having Mike Dean come in and play this brilliant guitar solo over. I do love the guitar solo over production. That just doesn't. The obvious choice is not to have a guitar solo on this song, and it works so fucking well. And then you get the Ross feature, and every time he comes in, it's just like you're already five minutes through the song. And every time his voice comes in, I'm surprised a little bit. And it just like, it's such a perfect red carpet rollout for a feature that I'm just like, has anyone been given this, like, this kind of cloud to float on?
- [38:06]
Charles Holmes
I mean, but to be fair, Kanye did it on the album with Nicki, where it's like Ross's verse on Devil in New Dress is way better than Nicki's. People might think that's a hot take, but Nicki's verse quite literally birthed. Like, I'm not saying that's the reason she's Nicki Minaj, but that. That took her from like, very popping young money rapper to, oh, like, we now need to talk about this in the greatest verses of all time. I don't think Hermosa versus the greatest version of all time.
- [38:34]
Cole Kushna
It was a moment, though.
- [38:35]
Charles Holmes
But it was a moment.
- [38:36]
Cole Kushna
It was undeniable. Like, and. But that's. That was her brilliance and her making the most of that moment. Because I don't know, I don't remember the story, but it's not like Kanye gave her some special. She gets the same verses or the same production everyone else does. But I think my point about the Rick Ross verse is that Rick Ross just kind of had to. I mean, he does a great verse, but it's like he kind of just had to show up. Like, Kanye did all the legwork with the production.
- [39:01]
Charles Holmes
Well, that is. And here's what I will say. That's what makes actually my Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy such a great album, which is like, you would think on this album that Kanye would want to be the one in center and A lot of times I'm like, no. When you think about the biggest moments from this album, you think about the Ross verse, you think about the Nicki verse, you think about Bon Iver on Lost in the World, like, or.
- [39:23]
Cole Kushna
And Push a T on Runaway. Like, introducing reintroducing push to the world.
- [39:27]
Charles Holmes
And whenever artists talk about working with Kanye during this time, Pusha T will say, like, I wrote so many verses for, like, fucking for Runaway. And Connie's like, no, I need to be more asshole. More energy to the Dot. Nicki Minaj similar. She's like, I wrote so many verses for Monster. He's like, no, you need to do this, you need to do that. This is, to me, his best produced album. And I'm not talking about, like, the beats. I'm talking about what a producer can get out.
- [39:54]
Cole Kushna
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Beautiful. Okay, so before, which one are you picking?
- [39:57]
Charles Holmes
Runaway.
- [39:57]
Cole Kushna
Let's talk. But we got to talk about Runaway. Let's talk. I'll pick Runaway because that is. It's a. It's a. It's a monolith in hip hop. I feel like it's like it might.
- [40:06]
Charles Holmes
Be his most important song.
- [40:07]
Cole Kushna
It might be one of the best songs. I think it is one of the best songs of the 21st century. If this were a song exercise, I think this is the Kanye song we would submit. The production on this song is so unique. There's really just not other. I can't think of any song that is similar. And it's a nine minute song. I mean, a lot of these songs are really long, but the production is so good that it just. You'd want to hear it for that long. You know, usually when a song is just arbitrarily extended, the producer doesn't have the chops to, like, flesh out these ideas, then transform it midway through, like this. The beat takes an entirely. I mean, the beat turns into a string quartet, essentially, is what happens on the end. And then for him, another unpredictable, not obvious choice for him to come in and turn his voice into an instrument. We talk about the guitar solo on Devil in New Dress. Essentially, Connie's doing a guitar solo on Runaway just using his voice. And there's something so beautiful and moving about the abstraction and the dichotomy of the acoustic strings and this futuristic vocorder distorted sound. And he's blending these, these, these. These sonics together in a way that we have just really never, ever heard before. And, man, it's such a testament. And every time, every. Okay, the singing on Runaway is bad.
- [42:03]
Charles Holmes
Yes. It's terrible.
- [42:05]
Cole Kushna
Why does it work?
- [42:06]
Charles Holmes
Well, all right, so I will have to. This is why I do this podcast with you, because I love talking about music like this. Do you remember seeing him premiere this at the vma that next year where he's in the red suit, he brings out the white stage column, npc, and he's singing. And, like, I remember watching, like, he's not singing this well, but to your point, seeing it live first and seeing, like, the pain in his voice and, like, he's almost trying to ingratiate himself back into, like, popular American culture. That's why I think it works. Because I'm like, if it's sung any better, it almost robs it of its emotional core and the desperation of this guy. Like, I'm sorry, accept me back. But I'm not really that.
- [42:57]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, I 100 agree that that is my thoughts exactly. In terms of like, it works only because it does show you the rawness and the just. He's being vulnerable. This is a vulnerable song disguised as. I don't know. It's such an interesting, interesting concept because it's like, self deprecating. It's like him acknowledging and being self aware about his own flaws, but then he, like, celebrates it.
- [43:20]
Charles Holmes
Yep.
- [43:20]
Cole Kushna
And that's. That dichotomy is like, what makes this song so great. Because it is. It is about accepting his own imperfections or looking himself in the mirror, but then celebrating them in a way that I think we all, you know, we all can be the biggest douchebag sometimes, you know? And so, like, to have this kind of anthem about that is like, tangentially about the VMAs, but also about Kanye himself. And it's like, it was such a brilliant move post VMAs. Like, it is the perfect response to the VMAs.
- [43:50]
Charles Holmes
Yes. It's like, to be fair, also, as someone who worked at MTV News, like, I've been in the buildings, I've been behind the scenes when they're, like, putting together all this shit. I will say the VMAs also got a. At least became more relevant. They got like 10 years of added relevance just based off Connie interrupting Taylor, him coming back to do, like, the My Beautiful Dark Tail. Like, it was a whole, like, mini narrative. Taylor got to right.
- [44:16]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [44:16]
Charles Holmes
This is one of the best times of music. So the biggest song, power. Best song, Runaway. What's your worst song?
- [44:23]
Cole Kushna
My worst song. I think it's an easy. We don't have to spend too much time on this. I think it's Clearly Blame Game.
- [44:29]
Charles Holmes
You call me for long at the end of it, you know we both are wrong, but I know you are not wrong. I got to Blame Game this time. And I was just like, skip, yeah, it's okay.
- [44:54]
Cole Kushna
Talk. That's the one long song on the album that doesn't work for me. We don't need that skit with the Chris Rock skit. We just absolutely.
- [45:01]
Charles Holmes
Chris Rock's skit is actually the biggest red flag of me of just no one in the studio was just like, all right, Kanye.
- [45:09]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, let me. A lot of people pick Hell of a Life.
- [45:14]
Charles Holmes
I like Hell of a Life.
- [45:15]
Cole Kushna
Okay.
- [45:15]
Justin
Hell of a Life is a great song.
- [45:17]
Charles Holmes
Hell of a Life is really good.
- [45:18]
Justin
That's crazy.
- [45:19]
Cole Kushna
Okay. Because that's my. Let's just go to the next category. Unless you have another. Soapald is maybe another. Like, I like the song so Appalled. But if we're forced to choose.
- [45:29]
Charles Holmes
I don't like Soapald. It's not a bad song. It's just like it was of the Good Friday songs that were put on this Soul Paul, to me is like. I think narratively it makes sense, but I think it's among the weaker. But it's nowhere. Like, I can still listen to Soul Paul to be like, oh, it's cool. I can't listen to Blame Games.
- [45:45]
Cole Kushna
So, yeah, okay, so best deep cut. I'm going with Hell of a Life.
- [45:49]
Charles Holmes
One day I'm going to marry a porn star. We have a big ass crib and a long yard. We have a mansion that's a fly maze. Nothing.
- [45:57]
Cole Kushna
I. I'm glad that we're all in agreeance here, because I really like this song narratively, too. It's like, this is where he gets twisted. He's. He gets rejected on Devil in a New Dress. He. He goes through the sadness of. Of Runaway, and then we get Hell of a Life right after Runaway. And this is essentially him falling in love with a porn star because he's so lonely. And it's like at the end of the song, when he's breathing heavily, he's masturbating alone to his laptop. That's what's happening at the end of Hell of a Life for people that don't know. And so we're getting the doubt. He's at his lowest moment on.
- [46:32]
Charles Holmes
Was this when he was sending dick pics to Lisa Ann around this time?
- [46:36]
Cole Kushna
I can neither.
- [46:37]
Charles Holmes
Sorry. I don't know. Allegedly. Allegedly, guys.
- [46:48]
Cole Kushna
Okay, then the final category is Best Moment. And I think we've already talked about it. There's so much lore around this album. I had a top five best moments. I had the power music video, which I think is so cool, where it's just essentially a painting of Kanye and the camera zooms out and it's, like, all decadent, and you see the sword of Damocles above his head. Like, it's so. It's so cool. It's such a cool video. I remember when that came out. Number four is the rap camp mythology, the lore of the studio sessions. Number three for me is Good Friday rollout, which you already touched on. Number two for me was the Runaway short film.
- [47:28]
Charles Holmes
Yep.
- [47:29]
Cole Kushna
And I think number one has to be the VMA 2010 performance.
- [47:32]
Charles Holmes
Amazing.
- [47:33]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [47:33]
Charles Holmes
Pusha T coming out in the samming color suit. Salmon color suit at the VMAs. Wait, what's the next line?
- [47:40]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, what is that line?
- [47:41]
Charles Holmes
We was watching? Who the fuck was it?
- [47:42]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [47:43]
Charles Holmes
And what I will say is like, I just have to give. Can you guess what my favorite song outside of Runaway is on this album? It's not a deep cut, but I'm like, I listen to it every single time. Like, this is amazing.
- [47:55]
Cole Kushna
Is it gorgeous?
- [47:56]
Charles Holmes
Yeah.
- [47:56]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [47:56]
Charles Holmes
Kid Cudi. Raekwon.
- [47:58]
Cole Kushna
Raekwon. Another out of left field, not obvious choice. He gets that fourth verse on the song, and it's amazing.
- [48:05]
Charles Holmes
Also, as a Kid Cudi fan, I will say I don't know what it is. You can tell who Kanye's two favorite children of good music were at this time, and it was definitely Kid Cudi and Pusha T. Cause I'm like, I've never heard Kid Cudi sound this good. When he shows up on Gorgeous or when he shows up on all of Lights, you're like, oh, no. This is why he signed the opening track.
- [48:23]
Cole Kushna
Dark Fantasy is a masterpiece, and I love the outro. When the chorus comes back again, it's like he plays it for way too long, but it sounds so gorgeous and decadent, and you just want to hear it for six minutes. It's a masterpiece. And the contrast between the chorus and the verses is so beautiful. Okay, that's the five categories, I think. Feeling pretty good.
- [48:47]
Charles Holmes
I'm feeling pretty good. We went a little long, but this album is good. Yeah, this album is good.
- [48:52]
Cole Kushna
Can it go head to head with the Euro?
- [48:55]
Charles Holmes
We will see. So, all right, Paul has made the case for my beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy. And after the break, we'll get into Drake's Take Care. All right, we are back. Now we're discussing Take Care, Drake's sophomore album, which was released on November 15, 2011. The 19 song project is considered by many to be Drake's magnum opus. It features collaborations with Lil Wayne, Rihanna, the Weeknd, and Andre the Thousand, among others. And the album signature hazy and subterranean sound was mainly created by executive producer Noah 40 Shabib, along with Team Minus, Boy Wonder, et cetera, et cetera. Take Care spawned a whopping seven singles. Marvin's Room, Headlines, Make Me Proud, the Motto, Take Care. Hell yeah. Fucking Right, and Crew Love. It debuted at number one on the Billboard 200, selling 631,000 copies in its first week of release. And the project is now 8 times platinum.
- [49:51]
Cole Kushna
Crazy. Crazy. I don't think it's ever left the Billboard 200 charts. Actually, it's six. At the time of recording this, 644 total weeks on the Billboard 200.
- [50:02]
Charles Holmes
Is that longer than Good Kid Mad City?
- [50:04]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, crazy. It's crazy.
- [50:08]
Charles Holmes
All right. So I just. The table setting that I think we have to do for this album is that we had actually had a conversation where you're like, are you sure it's not. Nothing was the same. And I think for a lot of people it would be nothing was the. But to me, Take Care is actually like patient zero for almost everything that would happen in larger rap, in R and B and pop. And I think that's from a cultural standpoint of before Drake. I think a lot of times we get very hyperbolic that, oh, hip hop wasn't emotional or deep before Drake. And that's not true. Drake is of a very. Like, he's a fan of Fonta. He's a fan of. Of Andre and Kanye, and everything that Kanye was doing on 808s and heartbreak obviously influenced him a lot. But I think Take Care was the moment where Drake 40 the Weeknd and everybody who had worked on it honed what had been happening into just this massive, undeniable album. And it also comes out of what had happened previously with Drake's debut, where it's like he comes out with so Far Gone. Everybody loves this album. They're like, who is this. This guy? He. He was on Degrassi. How is he creating something that's so cold and seems like it's underwater? We don't know what's happening. And he. Out of that, you get these massive singles. Successful. Best I ever had. Fast forward with thank Me Later. Thank Me later was a very complicated album to put together. Drake has been very, very open that he felt it was rushed. He felt like him and 40 and all of his team weren't Able to give it the love and the attention that it needed. And Take Care to me was this moment where if Kanye was like, I need to create a project to basically get ingratiate me back into society. I think Take Care for Drake was similar in terms of, like, I need to actually prove to people that, like, this sound is viable, Toronto is viable, that I can be more than just a pop music rapper. And Take Care to me sounds like that. Because before, if Kanye had Good Good Fridays, Drake did that where it's like, Marvin's Room wasn't supposed. People are like, oh, Marvin's Room is the first single. Marvin's Room wasn't supposed to be the first single. He releases it on his blog spot. And that, to me, is so instructive of this album, is where in real time, he's almost letting the fans in on the process of how do I create the Drake that we would know and become throughout this whole decade? Really?
- [52:49]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. I mean, I was surprised returning to the album so people know I'm not the biggest Drake fan.
- [52:54]
Charles Holmes
Yes.
- [52:54]
Cole Kushna
But I want to be as objective as possible. And I texted you on my first listen of this album, which I don't. I don't listen to really ever. I was surprised how much I didn't hate it and actually. And actually enjoyed a lot of the moments and trying to view it and listen more historically and kind of like, okay, okay, this is Drake, the beginning of his career. Let's not take for granted what Drake does really well. And I'm trying to listen with that ear. And I was so impressed with the fluidity between the rapping and the melodic work and the more traditional singing. But also this gray area that he seemed to come in the game with right away, this talent to kind of sing rap. Like, sing rap in a way that we've never heard.
- [53:41]
Charles Holmes
Yes.
- [53:41]
Cole Kushna
Where he could just go, ease, I think. What's the second song? Or. No, he does it on Headlines, where Headlines starts, the verses start just. Just pretty straightforward rapping. And then he gets into this pre chorus where it's like in between rapping and singing, and then the chorus is just singing. And so there's just like. There's a unique fluidity that he's able to. To go transition from these different stylistic expressions within the same song. And it's like, I was trying to think, like, what other artists could be on a song like Take Care with Rihanna and a song with Lil Wayne, like the Motto or any of the songs with Wayne and actually hold him, hold his ground. And, yeah, I Mean, these are two of the massive artists with two separate skill sets in singing and rapping, and he's able to hang and stay right there alongside them. It's like, how many artists could actually do that?
- [54:34]
Charles Holmes
And I mean, for better and worse, I will say this. This album. I think the reason I want to pick this instead of any of the other Drake albums is Drake fundamentally changed how most artists sang. And I think it started with R and B, where it's like, around this time. Most R and B up to this point was a. It was a vocal. It was a vocal genre where people are har. You're talking about harmonies, you're talking about runs. You think of anyone from John Legend to Beyonce, just a good r b artist, nine times out of 10, was judged on how well they can sell their singing.
- [55:15]
Cole Kushna
Right?
- [55:15]
Charles Holmes
And when Drake comes in, he's almost doing like a. Like a sing talking. Yeah, very like, Bet we used. We called it. It ended up becoming like bedroom pop or bedroom R B. And that's also what's very interesting. Going back to this, where it's like, you take someone like Sza, Sza, to me, is kind of off this branch as well. Where it's like, sometimes she's not showing you everything she can do vocally. A lot of times she's using this in between to almost connect with the audience more and almost feel like a diary entry instead of very much a black church. Like, R and B is coming out of the black church. And a lot of times that's what Beyonce is so good at. When he listens to a Beyonce, where you're like, oh, this is an angel. And with someone like Sza, you're just like, oh, this feels like my best friend talking about a drunken night with a fuck boy.
- [56:05]
Cole Kushna
Right, right.
- [56:05]
Charles Holmes
And like, that is actually, like, that comes from Trey.
- [56:09]
Cole Kushna
All right, Yvel, you ready for the album trivia?
- [56:12]
Charles Holmes
I am.
- [56:13]
Cole Kushna
All right, so I got two questions for you. What is the inspiration for the title Marvin's Room?
- [56:24]
Charles Holmes
It is the name of where Drake recorded this. This song. Marvin's Room is a very, very popular studio. And I want to say it's studio. It was Marvin Gaye, right? Yeah, Marvin.
- [56:39]
Cole Kushna
Marvin Gavin Gaye Studio.
- [56:40]
Charles Holmes
Come on, man.
- [56:41]
Cole Kushna
You can't. You are. You are Drake fanboy. All right, one point for you. And second question, multiple choice. Which of the following artists did not open for Drake on the Club Paradise Tour, which was the tour for this album? Is it A, Kendrick Lamar did Not Tour B, A$AP Rocky, C, J Cole, D. Meek Mill Or E. The Weeknd.
- [57:09]
Charles Holmes
It's in between J. Cole and the Weeknd. And I want to say it's J. Cole.
- [57:18]
Cole Kushna
It's the weekend.
- [57:18]
Charles Holmes
The weekend. Fuck.
- [57:20]
Cole Kushna
But isn't that crazy? When I looked at it, Kendrick, Rocky, Cole, and Meek Mill all open for Drake during this time.
- [57:28]
Charles Holmes
I will say this was actually the beginning of all this beef shit. Because what ended up happening is, like, if you, like, follow enough Drake music, he. He. All these artists open for him, and then he spends the next decade being like, I'll put y' all on. I gave you all your first tour. That's where I think a lot of the static between these artists happened, because it's like, oh, I thought we were boys. And I was just opening for you and Drake, the minute he falls out with anyone's like, see, this is what they do for you when you give them a look. That's what I think.
- [58:00]
Cole Kushna
Well, I mean, going back to Kendrick's interlude on here, which is so strange. Like, why is this even on the album? It's so weird.
- [58:08]
Charles Holmes
Here's the thing. That was almost gonna be my worst song because I was just like. Not because it's a bad song, but more so. I'm just like. It's so out of left.
- [58:15]
Cole Kushna
It's so weird.
- [58:16]
Charles Holmes
It makes no sense.
- [58:17]
Cole Kushna
And coming after Marvin's room is just. But if you listen to the lyrics of that song, especially now, it's so crazy because he's like. He's not friendly to Drake on the song.
- [58:26]
Charles Holmes
Once again, I was just like, these two never liked each other at all. You can hear it on the song. I was just like, yeah. Like, I don't know.
- [58:32]
Cole Kushna
I don't know if Drake just misunderstood what Kendrick was saying. Like, I just. I. Why did Drake put this on the album? He's essentially the story of that that is told in the interlude. Kendrick meeting up with Drake. It being this. Like, It's. This is. This is Kendrick posing OD. Overly dedicated. And before section 80, he gives Drake section 80. I think he said Drake was the first one he gave it to. To listen to after it was complete. Drake likes it. You know, has Kendrick come out and it tells the story of them hanging out for the first time. And Kendrick's kind of like, looking around as like, okay, this is the beginning of some. This is the beginning of. I. I can see the future.
- [59:09]
Charles Holmes
Yeah.
- [59:10]
Cole Kushna
The whole Buried Alive thing is like, I can be entranced by fame. I'm about to walk into this industry, into this new world, and how am I going to navigate It. And he's. And he's essentially symbolized. Drake is a symbol of that fame, of that lifestyle and the trappings of it. Kendrick is already seeing that in Drake and wondering which way he's going to go in the industry. But I'm just like, why did. Okay, all makes sense. But why is it on the album? It's so weird.
- [59:42]
Charles Holmes
And how it's greeted by an alien that said last year that she slept with a Canadian. They gave him an addiction that'll keep him in Mercedes Benz.
- [59:48]
Cole Kushna
All right, so let's get into the categories again. To recap for the listeners, we're going to go through these same categories for every album. So we're going to cover biggest song, best song, worst song, best deep cut, and biggest moment from the album. We'll start with the biggest song on Take Care is what?
- [60:04]
Charles Holmes
Biggest song on Take Care, which I was surprised about is Headlines. And the reason I was surprised is because you texted me and you're like, wait, which song is bigger on. On Take Care, Headlines or Take Care? And I was like, it has to be Take Care because Headlines, for those who don't know, was produced by Boy 1 in 40. When it came out, I remember people being kind of like, what the fuck is this? Like, I liked it, but it was like when Dre started rapping, like, go make me catch a body like that. We were all like, this is the sweater dude. This was the guy up to that point. Like, can you imagine the guy who wrote Best I Ever had talking about how he loves to see his girl in the sweatpants was in this video where he's mobbing with Toronto gangsters. It was cringy and at the. I love Headlines. Headlines is one of my favorite songs of all time. And even I could be like, crazy.
- [60:56]
Cole Kushna
Statement, by the way. Go ahead.
- [60:59]
Charles Holmes
Here's the thing.
- [61:00]
Cole Kushna
Go ahead.
- [61:00]
Charles Holmes
One light skinned goat to another. I understood esp. You know what I'm saying? I might be too strong. I don't. Compliments overdosed on confidence Started not to give a and stop fearing the consequence Drinking every night because we drink to my accomplishments Faded way too long I'm floating in and out of consciousness and they saying I'm back and I know what he's talking about on the song. But what I think is so interesting about Headlines to me is that this is the moment where like, Drake, like, like, dips his toe into, like, how much acting can I do?
- [61:34]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [61:34]
Charles Holmes
And what I mean by that is, like, I think Drake probably at this time was already starting to feel how claustrophobic. Being the sad boy R and B lover type who gets, like, heartbreak. Drake was one of his fucking early monikers that we never say anymore. And even at that time, I think we could, like, he was like, I can't be the fucking fuck boy forever. And Headlines, if you go back and listen to it, is him being like, wait, if I tell people I'm about to catch a body, are they really going like, can I still make.
- [62:07]
Cole Kushna
So he's testing the waters. Okay.
- [62:09]
Charles Holmes
And then once you get to, like, if you're reading this is Too Late and everything, even with, like, we were talking about it, the new Drake single that he released off Iceman, it's fine. But, like, the cringiest part of that video is when he's standing in front of all the guns. And to me, it starts with Headlines. It starts with all of us been like, drake, you don't have to do this.
- [62:30]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, I mean, I. I don't like Headlines. I will say his performance on Headlines is, I think, objectively good.
- [62:38]
Charles Holmes
They don't get it.
- [62:38]
Cole Kushna
They'll be, oh, it's super catchy. It's super catchy. I just don't actually. Don't like the beat. The beat, to me.
- [62:46]
Charles Holmes
You don't like the beat?
- [62:47]
Cole Kushna
No, I don't like.
- [62:48]
Charles Holmes
The beat is great to me.
- [62:49]
Cole Kushna
It's like that. That beat, to me is like trying to do what Twisted Fantasy did. It. It's kind of still. We can hear the kind of remnants of that maximalist sound that was so popular in the late 2000s and early 2000s, but it never really reaches the kind of crescendo or the production doesn't fill out in a way that I think it could have. And maybe it was because it was rushed like you said, but something about the Beat just doesn't. I don't know. Justin, are you a fan of the Headlines beat?
- [63:15]
Justin
I was at the time and now I think it just sounds so dated. I mean, like, I think, again, I know we're not putting the album's head to head right now. We're talking about it, but to me, in case I don't get a chance to say this again, again, when I was revisiting these two albums, it was kind of striking to me how much of the beautiful, dark Crucif Fantasy production sounded really timeless, where a lot of the Take care stuff sounded really tethered to that moment.
- [63:39]
Charles Holmes
Yeah, no, I. You guys are, like, wrong. Okay. Headlines is aged perfectly. It's a great song, and I will not hear any Drake slander.
- [63:47]
Cole Kushna
We.
- [63:47]
Charles Holmes
We've had a year of it.
- [63:48]
Cole Kushna
Okay, okay. But I agree with Justin, not you. But I will say the moments that do feel timeless on this album, I think are represented in its best song. So what if it is the best song?
- [64:00]
Charles Holmes
The best song to me, and you're going to kill me for saying this, I think not only the best song of this album, but I would put this in the top 10 most important songs of the 21st century so far. Is Marvin's Room. I say that, that you think you found. And since you pick up, I know he's not around.
- [64:36]
Cole Kushna
I agree.
- [64:37]
Charles Holmes
I. Where do I even begin with this song? In terms of just like, this was not supposed to be a single. When he released it on the blog, I think it was just kind of like, hey, these are kind of some of the Lucy's that I've been working on. There was a song called Club Parad. I think the actual first song that was kind of leading us into this phase was called Dreams Money Can Buy, which samples Jay Paul. But when we get to Marvin's room, I think that this was the best example of what Drake did so well at this time, which is taking a feeling that everyone has had, which was. Was, I'm really, really drunk. I'm doing stuff I shouldn't do. I'm calling this woman. I'm like, she's leaving angry voicemails all like. But he had packaged it in such a way that had never really, to me, been packaged before, especially in rap, which was like, it's so vulnerable. And it's almost like if you go back to the reviews at the time, people are like, this is like reading someone's diary. This is like. Like the most awkward moment that you could have. And like, traditionally, rappers aren't supposed to be that. Rappers are supposed to be able to get any woman that they want. They're not supposed to be famous and still begging at the end of the night. And it's funny thinking of a world where Drake goes more in this direction, where more sing, because I think actually, like, his performance on the song is pretty good. Like, Drake isn't the strongest singer, but he knows exactly what this song needs. And after this, so much of R and B that you go like, that would come out, whether it's Bryson Tiller, Bryson Tiller or Black or Sza. To me, that this was the song that kind of showed people, like, oh, this is how we're going to sing about love in the 21st century. Love that is so like, we're texting constantly. We're constantly on Instagram. We're constantly monitoring each other.
- [66:43]
Cole Kushna
Right.
- [66:43]
Charles Holmes
This is Drake. I don't think. To me, honestly, I don't know if Drake has ever really topped this moment, R and B wise in his career. He's had better singing moments. I don't think he's had a better package.
- [66:55]
Cole Kushna
I agree. And I think production wise, this feels like the crystallization of that sound that they, if, correct me if I'm wrong, but they kind of been working towards. And, you know, so far, or this album in general is experiments with a lot of sounds and I think it gets refined as his career goes on. And this feels like they found something with this song because it feels like the best representation of that kind of quote, unquote, underwater sound. And what I like about the song is that it serves a kind of thematic purpose because it does put you in this place where you're hearing music. Maybe you're in the bathroom of a club and you're hearing the music from a distance and you're kind of drunk and things are just washing and like, the song feels like a piece of theater to me because you get the back and forth with the phone call and it all works very well. And to your point, Drake knows exactly. I mean, he's an actor, so he knows how to give that kind of performance that works emotionally, but also there is. That there is theatrics to the song. I do have some questions about the song, unless you wanted to say anything. Did you have any more points?
- [68:02]
Charles Holmes
No. All I want to say in terms of just the sound, I actually got a chance when I was working at writing for Rolling Stone to go to Toronto and interview Noah40Shabit to produce this project. Noah is not only just a great producer, but he's also great. He's a great engineer in mixing. And I think this is a perfect example of, to your point, marrying the production with the mixing elements of. When we talk about the 40 sound, people call it subterranean, people call it underwater, but a lot of that is in the mix. They'll just like, oh, we are going to make this seem like it's muffled.
- [68:40]
Cole Kushna
A little bit, taking all the high end out.
- [68:42]
Charles Holmes
Yes, exactly. That is what kind of makes this song work. Cause if it was mixed just like a traditional R and B song, I think people wouldn't like it as much. It would almost be too raw and too embarrassing. But because they, like, put it on, they present it in such a way you end up feeling like Drake instead of it feeling like oh, like I'm listening to Drake. Tell me a story. When you listen to this song, you're like, oh, you're in the scene.
- [69:09]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, you're in the scene.
- [69:10]
Charles Holmes
So what are your questions?
- [69:12]
Cole Kushna
Okay, I just, I highlighted. I highlighted the fact that this iconic chorus is. What he sings is really funny when you look at it. Fuck that N word that you love so bad.
- [69:23]
Charles Holmes
Let's fuck that nigga that you love so bad. Woo. It just gives me chills.
- [69:32]
Cole Kushna
Gives you chills. This is like his mother.
- [69:34]
Charles Holmes
I sober bitches in my home Thumb. There's a. Wait, there's a line on. There's a line on the new Drake and P and D record where he's like, he tells a story about how one of Lil Durk's homie was like just killing people in Chicago listening to Marvin's room, which is like the funniest thing about the song. Because if you know any guys in the streets and you're just like, what's some of your favorite music? They're like, yo, Marvin's room. The amount of tough guys who just swear by this.
- [70:04]
Cole Kushna
A single tear writing down. Okay. Do you like the rap verse on this song?
- [70:11]
Charles Holmes
No, it's. It's embarrassing. Like, like, I like it in like, I think it, I think it works in, in terms of just kind of like this song. But no, it's bet like there's. I will say the two worst bars on this are the Asian girls Let the Lights Dim song. Song. That's not on this. But that's one of the worst on the entire album. And then the line he has on this about the white girl saying the N word. Okay, here we go. Be in some trouble is. I'm like, it's funny, but I'm like, why is this on this song?
- [70:42]
Cole Kushna
Okay, that was my next question because. Well, I had to point out the, the laugh out loud moment of the. The rap verse when he says, I've had sex four times this week. I could explain why.
- [70:51]
Charles Holmes
Wait, no, wait. So I've always been confused by that line because the way he sings, he's like, I've had sex full time this week. I'll explain. I'm like, he's like, for a lot. Like, is he like explaining someone's like, no, usually it's more but like, like, is he being like, oh, I'm a. I've had sex four times.
- [71:10]
Cole Kushna
That was my reading of it. Yeah.
- [71:12]
Charles Holmes
Is this with the same woman? Because if it's with the same woman, that's not bad. If it's with four different women, if you're Drake at this point. Also still not that bad, right?
- [71:21]
Cole Kushna
I guess. I guess so. I don't know. I don't live that life. Charles. So the, the other question was about the outro. So what, why, why is. What is. What is this outro?
- [71:32]
Charles Holmes
Just throw up while I hold your heart back. Her white friend said, you crazy. I hope no one heard that. I hope no one heard that. Cause if they did, we gonna be in some trouble.
- [71:43]
Cole Kushna
What? Why is that there?
- [71:46]
Charles Holmes
Because here, if we're gonna be honest, right, for Drake, part of the Drake experience is that he's cringy. Light skinned people are cringy. Light skinned men from Toronto are cringy. And I think that, like, if you. When I went to Toronto for the first time and I saw that everybody in the city either looked like Drake or the Weeknd. That and like, that outro, I was just like, that explains it. Where, like, there were. It was like a skeleton key of Drake going to the city being like, oh, yeah, this is a city of Drake. Nothing against Toronto, one of the most beautiful cities I've ever been to. But I was just like, oh, yeah. Somebody should have just been like, hey, yo. Like an American should have just walked in the room like, hey, yo, Drake. This song is perfect. We're not putting it.
- [72:36]
Cole Kushna
It's just so random. Okay, what is the worst song?
- [72:39]
Charles Holmes
Worst song. All right. Worst song. I love this song. I love this song. Song. Okay, but what he does on this is literally like sacri. Like, is just like, sacrilegious. I practice the song where he basically remakes Juveniles. Back that ass up into a bedroom. R B pop jam is like, nigga. No, like, no, like, I listen to it. I like it because I'm just like, this is some fuckboy shit. Justin, you're looking at me like you guys noticed.
- [73:12]
Justin
I. I think that this is the clubhouse leader for the worst song on any album that we cover this season. I. I just, I think this is, I think practice and I, you know, there, there are people who love the song. Great. I'm happy for you.
- [73:30]
Cole Kushna
I'm.
- [73:31]
Justin
I'm.
- [73:31]
Charles Holmes
Live your truth.
- [73:33]
Justin
This is a terrible song on every level.
- [73:36]
Charles Holmes
Girl, you look good once you back that ass up. You'll find once you back that. Is this hurting me? Because I want to defend it. I want it like, I can tell that money got you. We've been talking for so long. I used to play this song so much. And as someone who has, like, listened to more music and like, I love juvenile if people were just like, who's a top? Who are the top 50, like, rappers of all history. Juvie is in there. Juvenile did not deserve this. You can't touch a perfect song. Like, Back that ass up. And it sounds so crazy. Like, when you listen to this song in 2025, what was your thought process, Cole?
- [74:18]
Cole Kushna
This song in 2025?
- [74:20]
Charles Holmes
Yeah. Practice.
- [74:20]
Cole Kushna
By the time I reached practice on this album, I was exhausted.
- [74:24]
Charles Holmes
You were exhausted?
- [74:26]
Cole Kushna
I was so ready for it to be done. And this album takes. Falls off a cliff on the last handful of songs. So I gotta be. I'm. I'm right there.
- [74:35]
Charles Holmes
Was this. Was this your worst song?
- [74:36]
Cole Kushna
My worst song was Lord Knows, the Just Blaze beat.
- [74:40]
Charles Holmes
All right, so if I can defend.
- [74:42]
Cole Kushna
Okay.
- [74:42]
Charles Holmes
Lord Knows is one of my favorite songs on this project, but it is because of the beat. I think I love the Just Blaze beat. I love Rick Ross on the Just Blaze beat. Drake sound. I thought Drake sounds so out of, like, just like he's not meant to be on the spot.
- [74:59]
Cole Kushna
Exactly. That's. It doesn't work for me at all. All.
- [75:01]
Charles Holmes
But I couldn't make it the worst song because I like the production and I like Ross's verse so much. Where I was like. But this was also during a time where I was like. There was a transition point with Drake where I think Drake got better at, like, the faux tough guy cosplay. Cos. Playing the tough guy.
- [75:18]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [75:18]
Charles Holmes
But here, his voice is still very young. It's still very. Just like, you're still. You're still from Degrassi, bro. You. I don't. Jay, like, Jay would sound great over this beat. You know, Ross, because he has a thicker, like, just tone to his voice. Sounds great. Drake out of best deep cut, though.
- [75:37]
Cole Kushna
Okay.
- [75:37]
Charles Holmes
I don't even know if you could call this a deep cut, but Cameras. She look like a star. But only on camera. Only on camera. Only on camera. It might look like I care, but only on camera. Only produced by 40. It samples John B's Calling on youn, which is just, like, hilarious to sample. John B. Shout out, John B. You have a lot of great music. But it was like, Cameras to me is the record where it's like, what do you think of what I think of my college experience when I think about, like, going to certain parties? Cameras is the song. When it came on, everybody's like, yeah, like, that was Cameras to me, I think is to me, like, my favorite song off this record.
- [76:23]
Cole Kushna
Wow.
- [76:23]
Charles Holmes
Yeah, it is. I don't know what it is. Just is Cameras an embarrassing choice.
- [76:28]
Justin
No, I don't. I don't think so. I. I actually. I like Underground Kings. I understand what you guys are saying. I think it's the just Blaze beat. I think it's Rick Ross. Sorry. Lord knows I like Underground Kings. I like that whole stretch of the record, if I'm being honest. I really like it.
- [76:43]
Charles Holmes
Underground Kings is great. Lord knows is great. I don't know if the Nicki record aged as well as I would have. It's kind of out of pocket.
- [76:50]
Cole Kushna
And the. The one with Lil Wayne and Andre 3000.
- [76:56]
Justin
I'm not counting that in the stretch.
- [76:57]
Cole Kushna
That I'm not quite.
- [76:59]
Charles Holmes
That is not my favorite.
- [77:01]
Cole Kushna
If you're going to get Andre, I don't know. Just seemed like a waste of a feature. So I did my very best. I'm glad you picked cameras because I did my very best to find a dissectable moment for you, Charles. I read through every single line of this album. I promise you. I read through every single single line in this album. And so my most dissectable moment does come from cameras. It is the line, I could be your knight in shining armor all tires. It gets better, though.
- [77:35]
Charles Holmes
Can you not be an asshole?
- [77:37]
Cole Kushna
I'm trying my best. I am trying my best. Okay. I could be your knight in shining armor all tires. Girl, they love me like I'm prince Like the new kid with the crown. Bunch of underground kings. Thought you knew how we get down. Okay, okay, so nice knight, prince, king scheme. Right. Ties together those three lines beautifully. That is great writing. Just technically great rap writing. Knight, prince, kings, prince, triple entendre. Prince, as in a literal prince. Because he says, I'm the new king with new kid with the crown playing on a son of a king. Prince being the literal prince. The artist formerly known as Prince. His name in Purple Rain is the kid. So like the new kid with the crown. So I think that's a reference to Purple Rain and Prince's character in Purple Rain, the third layer, because he says bunch of underground kings. Prince is also a reference to J. Prince, who was associated with ugk, mentored pimp C, ugk. Obviously, Underground Kings, Drake and J.
- [78:45]
Charles Holmes
Prince have a connection.
- [78:46]
Cole Kushna
Exactly. So we got a triple entendre. We got a knight. A nice motif in the night prince, king scheme. Nice job, Drake. Are you dissected?
- [78:54]
Charles Holmes
Not only was I dissected, I feel like you missed one of them.
- [78:57]
Cole Kushna
Okay.
- [78:58]
Charles Holmes
Purple Rain, Underground Kings, ugk, Lean. Oh, potentially.
- [79:04]
Cole Kushna
I like it.
- [79:05]
Charles Holmes
Did I get you?
- [79:06]
Cole Kushna
I think so.
- [79:08]
Charles Holmes
I've been dissected Hell, yeah. And it would be on a Drake album. It would be on the Drake album. All right. Best moments. Moment. I have two.
- [79:18]
Cole Kushna
Okay.
- [79:20]
Charles Holmes
I need an ISO moment. Just Shot for me.
- [79:23]
Cole Kushna
Okay.
- [79:23]
Charles Holmes
Shot for me, to me is like, actually, like a perfect song. First I made you who you are and then I made it and you're wasted with your latest yeah, I'm the reason why you always getting faded Take a shot for me oh. It's also a weekend song where. But I think Shah. Take a shot for me oh, you're.
- [79:52]
Cole Kushna
Saying Weeknd wrote that?
- [79:53]
Charles Holmes
I am almost positive. Weekend this was one of the batch. When I was. When I was in Toronto, I got to ask Noah 40 about the weekend because a big thing that. A big controversy around that time is the Weeknd was also coming out. Coming up out of Toronto, he had released House of Balloons. There was obviously a Drake connection. Crew Love is also one of the biggest songs off this record. And a lot of people claimed that the Weeknd was responsible for this record in terms of just like, even the.
- [80:27]
Cole Kushna
Weekend I could hear it. Yeah, yeah.
- [80:29]
Charles Holmes
The Weeknd was essentially, like, a lot of this music was supposed to be on my debut, and I, like, gave it away to them.
- [80:36]
Cole Kushna
Oh, wow.
- [80:37]
Charles Holmes
And when I went up to Toronto, 40 was like, hey, yo, all respect to those guys. They contributed to a couple records. Like, that has always been overblown. And I. But I think what people are always talking about when they listen to something like Shot from Mere Crew Love is that I think also the skeleton cleave for unlocking the R B on this record was the weekend. Because the weekend was coming up at this time where obviously Toronto was trying to transform into a powerhouse hip hop, R and B wise, in the same way Atlanta or Chicago or New York or LA was. And I think because the Weeknd is a better classical singer, a lot of times he can sell some things that it takes Drake a lot more work to do. And when you listen to Shot For Me, when you listen to Crew Love, I. I'm like, I can see how Drake could hear that and be like, oh, I can mimic that versus, like, on Marvin's room. This is no shot at Marvin's room. The production, the mixing, the mastering has to do a lot of work to hide the fact that Drake isn't the strongest at holding a note. Or there has to be a lot of auto tune. And Shot For Me is a perfect example of just why Drake works so well with someone like Abel, Someone like Party Next Door. He's great at hearing great Writers. And he's hearing great at hearing good melodies. But sometimes it takes somebody in the back being like, no, this is how you sing it. This is how you're gonna do it. And just shot for me is one of just, like, my favorite moments.
- [82:13]
Cole Kushna
And then that's just quickly. That is. That is like the Sliding Doors version of Drake's career that I'll just never understand because it does seem like he could have been and a la Kanye. Drake has a great ear.
- [82:27]
Charles Holmes
Yeah.
- [82:28]
Cole Kushna
But he never was able to become that kind of grand the maestro behind the scenes and make. Because I feel like he has the ear, and I don't know why that never really came to fruition. But, like, I see a world in which he does follow that thread more and he does architect more than he does now because to your point about all of this, like, he does recognize great melody. He does recognize great, great cadences on flows. Like, he's really great acting, cosplaying other people. So there's a world in which all those things synthesize and him being the. The. The puppeteer above it all. But I feel like he. He always wanted the credit. Like, it was always like, he wanted to be the guy. He didn't want to go the Kanye route. So that's why he hid the Ghost Riders. That's why. You know what I mean?
- [83:14]
Charles Holmes
Like, I think. What I think always happened is, like, I think Take Care of is a. Is a beautifully produced album in terms of, like, in the same way that we are talking about, like, Kanye was so great at, like, kind of understanding what made his collaborators great. I think this is a project where Drake can see something even if we don't like the Kendrick song. Like, he sees something in Kendrick, he sees something in Ross. He sees something in Wayne that he can kind of put them. Same thing with the Weeknd. But I think Drake always wanted to be considered, like, the next Jay Z, so that's why his music becomes a lot more rap forward becomes a lot more braggadocious, and, oh, I'm the leader of this big movement. I'm the boss of my. Of my city, the Six, or whatever. And the Sliding Doors moment is like, what if he just is like, hey, I'm really, really like. Because would we. Would anybody have been mad? Do you think Kendrick actually would have been mad on songs like King Kunta about Drake using Ghost Riders if Drake was always like, no, I'm more of a producer in the comic Kanye mold?
- [84:15]
Cole Kushna
I think so. That was. I mean, I think Kendrick has said this directly in interviews, not. Didn't reveal it's about Drake, but essentially it was saying, like, yeah, it's fine if you're going to go that route. Just be transparent about it. It was more of the fact that he hid and was trying to take credit for it. Where. Yeah. I don't think any of us would have. I think the public perception would have. I think we would have easily accepted that about Drake.
- [84:36]
Charles Holmes
Yes. Like, I think we would have championed it.
- [84:38]
Cole Kushna
We think so, too. Yeah.
- [84:39]
Charles Holmes
You are like one of Kanye.
- [84:42]
Cole Kushna
That's what he should do.
- [84:43]
Charles Holmes
That's. Yeah. Like, that's how you molded your career.
- [84:45]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [84:45]
Charles Holmes
I actually think we. We wouldn't have had the Kendrick beef. We wouldn't have had the Meek beef, the Pusha T beef. I think Pusha T, Meek, Kendrick. What all of them were saying is, is that, like, wait, you can't have it both ways.
- [84:58]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, exactly.
- [84:58]
Charles Holmes
Drake can't claim that he's the goat and the number one rapper and he's better than all of us if he has a camp behind him. Right. Because also what I think is I'm like, Drake is actually a really, really talented writer. I think, like, we wouldn't know, but I'm like, there's a difference between. Between being a great melodic writer and being someone like a Pusha T or Kendrick, where it's like, no, no, no, no. Every word that's coming out of my pen is my pen.
- [85:22]
Cole Kushna
Right.
- [85:22]
Charles Holmes
You can't compare me to this dude who's like. In the same way, I'm like, Connie's. Connie can write some great lines. He's a good rapper. He's not a lyricist, though. There's a difference.
- [85:32]
Cole Kushna
There's a difference. Yeah, yeah.
- [85:34]
Charles Holmes
I can't believe you got me to show now. And lastly, my last, like, best moment is, like, stuff that just didn't make the album. I like, feel think part of this club, paradise dreams, money can buy, trust issues. All of the music that came before this to me is still incredible and I just want to shout it out.
- [85:54]
Cole Kushna
But is there a cultural moment outside? So we did like the VMAs for. For twisted Fantasy. Is there an iconic moment that related to this album outside of it like that?
- [86:04]
Charles Holmes
Actually, I probably didn't explain it well enough, but, like, the culture amongst. Moment was the lead was those songs because he was dropped. There were moments where. I remember Marvin's room. He just drops it and then within the span of like a couple weeks, it becomes a radio single. He drops trust issues.
- [86:23]
Cole Kushna
A bunch of people like, cover it too Right.
- [86:24]
Charles Holmes
A bunch of people cover, like, trust issues is a perfect example of like, Justin Bieber was covering trust issues. Like what you call Chris Brown was covering Marvin's room.
- [86:34]
Cole Kushna
Right.
- [86:34]
Charles Holmes
So. So what actually was happening in real time is like, similar to Good Fridays where you could see Kanye kind of being like, we rewrite history good. A lot of Good Fridays was Kanye being like, wait, what do people want?
- [86:47]
Cole Kushna
Testing the waters for sure.
- [86:48]
Charles Holmes
Yeah, Testing the waters. And I think we didn't have a name for it, but Drake was testing the waters, like, oh, they like Marvin's room. Oh, you like trust issues. Oh, you actually like. I don't think we get as much singing on this record if he doesn't drop a lot of these records before. And him being like, oh, okay, like, you guys like this more laid back. Because this is also what we didn't talk about. This is a very slow plotting. Like, there's big moment, like underground kings that kind of, like, hype you up. But a lot of the songs in this are just very, like, mid tempo, just kind of like lulling you into this almost quicksand of R and B. So I think the cultural moment was like, club paradise. Like, oh, that's not even making the album.
- [87:31]
Cole Kushna
But.
- [87:32]
Charles Holmes
But we get care package, like, years later in a bunch of those songs. If you look at the streams, you're like, people still love that era of his. So, yeah, that was. That would be one of my best moments. But with that, I think Head to.
- [87:46]
Cole Kushna
Head, the first Head to head of the season. Yep. All right.
- [87:49]
Charles Holmes
All right, it's time now to put Take Care Twisted Fantasy Head to head. Remember, the goal this season is to crown the best album of the 21st century so far. Right now, Cole and I must decide decide whether Take Care Twisted Fantasy advances to the season finale Royal Rumble.
- [88:04]
Cole Kushna
To do this, the five categories we discussed for each album will now be going against each other. Meaning Twisted Fantasy's biggest song goes against Take Care's biggest song. Twisted Fantasy's best song versus Take Care's best song, et cetera. One point will be awarded for each category win and the most total points win. Producer Justin is going to be our referee and scorekeeper. We'll have no longer than two minutes to debate each category. Charles, you ready?
- [88:32]
Charles Holmes
Yes. And I'm gonna be honest. We might like. We're gonna need two minutes for a lot of the other pairings, but we can actually, like, wrap this up. I don't actually think we need to do, like, maybe you're wrong, but, like, if we take Biggest Song. Biggest song, like Power to Headlines. There is no. Like, you don't even have to argue. Like, there's no way. There's no world you can tell we had lines is a better song.
- [88:53]
Cole Kushna
You don't think.
- [88:54]
Charles Holmes
Am I wrong?
- [88:56]
Cole Kushna
If you're not putting up a fight, I'm not going to argue.
- [88:59]
Charles Holmes
I don't want to be like, oh, well, I'm going to be like Headlines, Justin. Do I need to waste people's time? Am I wrong?
- [89:07]
Justin
We've gone over a little. We can just wrap it up.
- [89:11]
Cole Kushna
Okay. Let's honor the format because I do think it is going to be more interesting when the albums are a little bit closer.
- [89:17]
Charles Holmes
Yeah.
- [89:18]
Cole Kushna
So best song was Runaway versus Runaway versus.
- [89:22]
Charles Holmes
Wait, Marvin's Room. Oh, Marvin's Room. Actually, I think that this is interesting.
- [89:26]
Cole Kushna
It is interesting. I think there's a clear winner, but I think they're closer than. They're closer in terms of influence, impact. Do you think they're equal? Influence, Impact.
- [89:36]
Charles Holmes
I actually don't think Runaway is that. I think Runaway is a better song. I don't think it's influential.
- [89:43]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, you're right.
- [89:44]
Charles Holmes
I think Marvin's Room is incredibly influential. I think if you take Mar. It's like a Jenga piece. If you take Marvin's Room, after of just the. The history of music in the 21st century, it collapses for best song. What I think we should debate now, are we awarding just in a vacuum, what is the best song, or are we rewarding what's the more important. What's more important to the 21st century? And I don't know.
- [90:13]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, I think the argument for Runaway being influential, quote, unquote. I wouldn't say. I would say, say no one's been able to recreate or even kind of come close to mimicking that sound. However, it was the song that won. I do think without Twisted Fantasy, does or without Runaway, does Twisted Fantasy have that impact that we now know? It does in terms of, like, Kanye, him performing at the VMAs, having that moment with Runaway and him making this apology song and it being the one song that he comes back with post VMAs. I see the influence. I see Kanye's career without Runaway going a little bit differently. But I think your point to Marvin's Room is really valid in terms of, like, it is the most influential. And I do agree with the Jenga metaphor there, because I do. It was immediately impactful. I think people immediately recognize this is something important in a way that. And that influence has persevered and Even helped kind of crystallize the sound that Drake would then become even more known for going forward. Runaway is clearly the better song, But I think in this category, just to mix it up, let's give.
- [91:21]
Charles Holmes
Let's give Drake the point so it's.
- [91:23]
Cole Kushna
Not a total sweet.
- [91:23]
Charles Holmes
I can't believe. I disagree. There's no. There is no world where I can even, like, when people, like, listen to this. For me to be like, marvin's room is a better song.
- [91:31]
Cole Kushna
Okay.
- [91:32]
Charles Holmes
Like, it's like.
- [91:33]
Cole Kushna
Like, is it just gonna be a clean sweep then? Okay, Worst song. Worst song.
- [91:36]
Charles Holmes
Okay, it's not. But I will just say run away. It has to be run away. Like, we have respect.
- [91:41]
Cole Kushna
I was trying to give Drake a point. Worst song, Run or Blame Game?
- [91:46]
Charles Holmes
I think Blame Game is worse. I think Blame Game is worse than the Practice, and this is why Chris Rock. The Chris Rock outro is bad. It's, like, stinks. It stinks.
- [91:58]
Cole Kushna
I'm fine with that. Justin. Is that fair?
- [92:01]
Charles Holmes
Chris. The Chris Rock outro is. Is unlist. Like, Practice is bad. The Chris Rock outro is unl. Listenable.
- [92:07]
Justin
I did just say that Practice was going to be the worst song.
- [92:10]
Cole Kushna
Okay. That.
- [92:11]
Justin
That was going to be a meteor that struck. That struck the whole planet when we had to put it on. I have, like, a soft spot in my heart for a Blame Game up until that outro.
- [92:22]
Cole Kushna
Okay.
- [92:22]
Justin
The outro is just. From day one has just been awful.
- [92:26]
Cole Kushna
The production on Blame Game is good. I like the production. I just don't like Connie's verses. I don't like the John Legend hook. It's just not for me.
- [92:33]
Justin
Yeah, let's. I think that. Here's the thing. I think there are more people out. Let's go with the populist takes. I think there are more people out there that are going to ride for practice than there are Blame Game. Even if that's not my personal take, I think that in the worst song category, this is. This is the one where Charles and Drake prevail. So congrats on that. Congrats on your moral victory.
- [93:00]
Cole Kushna
All right, so.
- [93:01]
Charles Holmes
So two.
- [93:01]
Cole Kushna
One. So Kanye's up. Two. Can. Can Drake comeback? Best deep cut. Hell of a Life versus Hell of.
- [93:08]
Charles Holmes
A Life versus Cameras. Cameras is a better song than Hell of a Life.
- [93:13]
Cole Kushna
You think so?
- [93:13]
Charles Holmes
Yeah, I. If I might be wrong, but I feel like people might actually be like, yo, y' all didn't pick Cameras over Hell of a Life just in terms of, like, there's an entire video of what? Like, of Drake at a Party playing it. That was just like. You could not go anywhere on Tumblr or Twitter or it's without seeing this dumb video. Have you ever seen it?
- [93:38]
Cole Kushna
I have not.
- [93:38]
Charles Holmes
It. It became a whole thing. Like, Cameras to me is actually a perfect song and Hell of a Life. I love Hell of a Life, but Cameras to me is like, you can still play that at a party. And people be like, even now when, like, no one wants to play Drake, you can play Cameras at a party right now. People like, ah, shit, I gotta give it to him.
- [93:56]
Cole Kushna
Fine, I'll give you the point. Best moment.
- [93:58]
Charles Holmes
Wait, no, no. Argue. Argue for Hell of a Life. If you think Hell of a Life is just so much better.
- [94:02]
Cole Kushna
I think it's clearly better.
- [94:04]
Charles Holmes
Really?
- [94:04]
Cole Kushna
The production alone is phenomenal.
- [94:06]
Charles Holmes
No, what?
- [94:08]
Cole Kushna
No, the synthesis, the bass synthesizer on that song and the. The. That. Whatever. That sparkly sample is.
- [94:18]
Charles Holmes
So good. Can I.
- [94:21]
Justin
Can I just also say that, like, the things that Kanye is doing lyrically on Hell of a Life might actually be the most interesting things that he's discussing on that entire album where he's. He's running, like, the prism of. He's running race through the prism of his porn addiction is like, kind of the entire. I mean, it's fucked up and it's messy, but it is, like, actually, like, a supremely Kanye moment. And I think it's actually kind of genius, some of the things he's doing on that, so.
- [94:54]
Charles Holmes
All right, really, really quick. We can cut this. But, like, I just wanted. Just before we pick, can you. Can you just play me Hell of a Life real quick? Let's play Hell of a Life. Just play me 15 seconds of hell of a Life, then play me cameras, because this is going to be. Because, like, actually, Justin might have swayed me.
- [95:11]
Cole Kushna
Come on, dude.
- [95:12]
Charles Holmes
Whoa. And if we run trains, we all in the same game.
- [95:25]
Cole Kushna
Okay. This song's phenomenal. I was underselling it. I need to put more of a fight. I'm a pushover, Charles. Actually, I'm playing Cameras.
- [95:32]
Charles Holmes
Oh. Hell of a Life is a joint.
- [95:41]
Cole Kushna
Fast forward a little bit.
- [95:45]
Charles Holmes
Word on Road is the click about. I said, listen, my soul go to the chories.
- [96:15]
Cole Kushna
Okay. Okay, so.
- [96:17]
Charles Holmes
All right. It's. It's. It's hell of a lot.
- [96:19]
Cole Kushna
It is hell of a lot. It's so clear as hell.
- [96:21]
Charles Holmes
It's clear once you played them both. Because I was just like. I forgot how crazy the production is on that. Like, it's one of the best produced.
- [96:29]
Cole Kushna
Like, yeah, I need to put up more of a fight. I'M gonna push over. I'm. It's hell of a life.
- [96:33]
Charles Holmes
It's hell of a life. It's easily.
- [96:34]
Justin
I just want to say playing those two back to back was very. It was very much like the H bomb versus the coughing baby meme.
- [96:42]
Charles Holmes
Guys. Hey, yo, to all my Aubrey's Angels out there. I tried, but it's like, y' all hurt. Even just both when you played them.
- [96:51]
Cole Kushna
I was like, yeah, all right.
- [96:54]
Charles Holmes
This moment, I think it. It's clearly all of the ones you listed.
- [96:58]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, VMAs. I think it's VMAs.
- [97:00]
Charles Holmes
Via, like, VMAs.
- [97:02]
Cole Kushna
Good Fridays.
- [97:03]
Charles Holmes
Good Fridays. Like. Cause, like, my. The one that I picked outside of just, like, shot for me, but the real one in terms of just, like, the all. If we just take Kanye's Good Fridays versus Drake's version that wasn't even named, that was very kind of sporadic. Good Fridays was better. Like, here's the thing. Like, even when I think of the videos for this, Marvin's Room video was kind of fine. The Headlines video is fine. Mind the Power video is dope as hell.
- [97:34]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [97:34]
Charles Holmes
The runaway. The Runaway short film is dope as, like, I think where even though Take Care has bigger moments in terms of, like, hits, in terms of, like, seven singles, if the videos are kind of trash. We didn't even talk about. The album cover is kind of trash. You know what I mean? I mean, there wasn't as many moments around this in terms of. Of, like, every point of Kanye's rollout has become iconic.
- [98:01]
Cole Kushna
There's a. I mean, I can picture that. I can picture the album in my mind, if that makes sense. Like, there's a visual identity to not only the album, but to the. That whole time.
- [98:11]
Charles Holmes
Yes.
- [98:11]
Cole Kushna
I. I can just. It's so clearly in my mind. And so I think the best moment. We came up with this category because we wanted to honor the impact outside of the music. Like, what are there iconic moments we'll talk about in our next episode with Beyonce? Like, you know, when we think of Lemonade, we think of moments. We think of things outside of the music, outside of the album itself. And so I think clearly.
- [98:35]
Charles Holmes
And it was hard to do that for Drake because I'm like. At that time, I'm like, there were moments, but there wasn't. They're not iconic now because, like, he's not as. To me, he's not as interesting aesthetically as Kanye. His music videos have never been that good. Yeah, his album covers have never been that good. Like, his tours have Never been that good. And that's not me. Like, I'm a. Like, I'm a big Drake fan, but I feel like a lot of times it seems like all of that stuff is an afterthought to the music, where it's like with Kanye, for better and sometimes worse, I'm just like. He always brings a spectacle.
- [99:08]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. All right, so clear the. The final score was 4 to 1, Twisted Fantasy. Justin, this somewhat easy question, but every time when we declare the winner, we're going to check in with our referee, Justin, to make sure we got it right. Is My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy the better album than Take Care?
- [99:28]
Justin
I just want to be clear that the point of this exercise is the best album, not the most influential album, Correct?
- [99:33]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [99:34]
Justin
Then, yes, we got it right. Because I think if we're talking influential, there's actually a discussion that Take Care is the winner here. Because you hear the DNA of Take Care of Marvin's room of cameras, all the stuff in popular music for the last 15 years, even right now.
- [99:49]
Cole Kushna
Yeah.
- [99:50]
Justin
But My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy was kind of made in a lab to be the most perfect album possible. And he mostly did it. Yeah, there were a few. There were a few road bumps, but he mostly did it. And I really think that as the winner. The winner of this feels right. As the winner of the first episode of a series trying to pick the best album of the century.
- [100:14]
Cole Kushna
I agree.
- [100:15]
Charles Holmes
I mean, as someone who was arguing the Drake side, I never really was arguing, because there's no world that you can tell me that Take Care is a better album than My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy. And I think even revisiting it, what's interesting is Take Care. To me, a lot of it does feel like sketches, because Drake is trying to almost. He's not creating a new sound, but he's trying to package and introduce a sound that would go on to dominate the 21st century, which is, like, to Justin's point, that's talking about influence. But if we're talking about even just how Hell of. Just how Hell of a Life sounds to Cameras, one sounds more finished, one sounds more ambitious. Like, one sounds more interesting versus one is more palatable. Like, I wouldn't play Hell of a Life in the club, I would play Cameras. But that we're not talking about in the club. We're not talking about influence. We're not talking about that. We're talking about like, hey, Alien comes. Which one are you giving them? And I'm like, I would give them My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy nine times. Out of ten.
- [101:16]
Cole Kushna
Yeah. All right. All right.
- [101:18]
Charles Holmes
We did it.
- [101:19]
Cole Kushna
We did it. Yeah. Good. Good. First episode. Do we want to tease the next episode? Are we going to do that this year?
- [101:25]
Charles Holmes
You know what? Let's tease. I say the next episode, what we will tease is that this is about. This is, like, about love. This is about betrayal.
- [101:35]
Cole Kushna
Okay.
- [101:35]
Charles Holmes
You know, this is about ego. This is about Solange and masculinity.
- [101:41]
Cole Kushna
About. Yeah, okay.
- [101:43]
Charles Holmes
Black love as well. And. And the ways that. That has transformed. What would you know about black love in. In the 20? Let me. Let me tell you.
- [101:51]
Cole Kushna
Let me tell you.
- [101:53]
Charles Holmes
You were like, hey, I've been waiting for this question my entire life.
- [101:59]
Cole Kushna
All right, man, we'll see you next time week.
- [102:01]
Charles Holmes
See you next week, man. All right, guys. If you've been listening to Last Song Standing, you know that one of our favorite parts is cultural exchange. It is when the both of us, you know, share a little bit about our worlds, about our music. You know, we've. We've given. You've given me jazz, classical. I've given you Jeremiah, the films of Miyazaki, an Avengers movie.
- [102:35]
Cole Kushna
You introduced me to Nathan Fielder, which I very much appreciate, by the way. Thank you.
- [102:39]
Charles Holmes
So this year, what we wanted to do is something a little bit different. We already described to you guys about how we went about choosing some of these albums, but for this cultural exchange, we wanted to pick. We're doing albums the entire run, and we wanted to pick albums that are special to us. But there is a twist. I'm going to give Cole an album. He's going to give me an album. And at the end of the season, whatever album that we give each other that we think was the best of the best will automatically make it to the final royal rumble. What I'm going to be trying to do and what you're going to be trying to do this entire time is essentially convince the other person that, okay, this album. Album is actually. We should have been talking about it the entire time. So I'm trying to appeal a little bit to what Cole likes about music, but also just kind of get some.
- [103:34]
Cole Kushna
You know, get your Usher's confessions off.
- [103:38]
Charles Holmes
Okay, so what's your first album?
- [103:40]
Cole Kushna
I'm going with something that I don't think you've probably put on in years or maybe ever. I don't know.
- [103:46]
Charles Holmes
I have listened. I think I. I might know what you're going.
- [103:49]
Cole Kushna
I'm going. I'm going with Lord, which is. Which is one of my favorite artists of the 21st century.
- [103:54]
Charles Holmes
That's insane.
- [103:56]
Cole Kushna
Talk about influential, pure heroine. That sound back then, she was ahead of her time. I think she's more influential than you realize.
- [104:03]
Charles Holmes
No, she's influential, just not for you. I don't. With Lord. Sorry, Lord. Like, I don't know you as a person. Like, I'm sure, like, we were friends. Like, she seems very nice. I've never listened to Lord's music and been like, I want to listen to more Lord music.
- [104:15]
Cole Kushna
Okay, well, I'm giving you the. Her second sophomore album, Melodrama, which is, I think, a perfect pop record. It is everything I would want from a pop album, which is not, you know, girly pop. I love more now because I have girls and they love this album too. So I find myself listening to a lot of girl pop in the last decade or so, more than I would probably like. But what's fun about them liking this kind of music? My daughters. So I try to find them albums like Melodrama that I really enjoy that were important historically. And this is one of those albums I think I'm not alone in. Even critics that don't kind of usually gravitate toward girly pop in terms of honoring it with high praise and, you know, high positive criticism agree that Melodrama is one of the best pop records ever made. So are you familiar with the album? When's the last time you listened to Melody Drama?
- [105:12]
Charles Holmes
The last time I listened to Melodrama, I was still living in New York, and I must have already been a music writer, because that was one of those albums of the year that was in contention for being the best. So at this point, I've been probably, like, since it dropped, to be honest.
- [105:28]
Cole Kushna
Oh, wow. Okay.
- [105:29]
Charles Holmes
Yeah. So I, like, it might have grown on me. Maybe I need to give Lord more credit. I'm sorry. Because I. I feel like I was too mean to Lord. I have nothing against her, so I'm.
- [105:37]
Cole Kushna
Give it a chance. Did you listen to her new album yet?
- [105:40]
Charles Holmes
Fuck, no.
- [105:42]
Cole Kushna
It's my album of the year so far.
- [105:44]
Charles Holmes
What?
- [105:44]
Cole Kushna
Yeah, it's great. It's great. Melodrama.
- [105:50]
Charles Holmes
All right, we got it. Well, I'm giving you my version of Lorde. I think the album that I'm giving you, actually, I think that this album arguably might be more influential than Take of Care. Definitely more influential than My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy. I'm going with Futures Monster.
- [106:09]
Cole Kushna
Okay.
- [106:10]
Charles Holmes
Because I still think we are still under the umbrella of, like, the future generation in terms of, like, for those that don't know when Monster comes out. Future sophomore record, Honest did not do what it was supposed to. He leaned way too into the pop route. R and B. And Monster was the beginning of the monumental mixtape run that he would go on with Monster, Beast Mode, 56 Nights, DS2, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I wanted to give this to you. And the reason I paired it with my Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy and Take Care is I'm like, I don't know if you can talk about the 21st century in hip hop or just music and what ended up happening with the Soundcloud generation, what ended up happening with the drug use with Lean, Xanax, all of that shit. And even the melodies. And I think when we talk about Future, we. A lot of times we talk about hip hop, but I'm like, oh, no. His influence kind of stretched. Think about what Justin Bieber was ending up doing. What a lot of the post Malone, it starts with this record.
- [107:18]
Cole Kushna
Okay?
- [107:18]
Charles Holmes
So this is one of my favorite records of all time. So it's.
- [107:22]
Cole Kushna
I'm excited to listen. I like Future, but I just never listened to a lot of his music. I'm not, like, putting on his albums frequently. So I'm really excited to go back to a full project of Future, which I can't remember the last time I played just a full album front to back. But I do like him. There's something addicting about his voice. There's like a. It sounds like drugs or something.
- [107:42]
Charles Holmes
It sounds like drugs.
- [107:43]
Cole Kushna
Does it? I don't know. But I'm excited. Okay. First cultural exchange. I'm excited.
- [107:50]
Charles Holmes
Hell yeah.