MF DOOM's 'Madvillainy' vs. Clipse's 'Hell Hath No Fury' | LAST SONG STANDING [E6]

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Dissect - MF DOOM's 'Madvillainy' vs. Clipse's 'Hell Hath No Fury' | LAST SONG STANDING [E6]

Podcast: Dissect
Episode: MF DOOM's 'Madvillainy' vs. Clipse's 'Hell Hath No Fury'
Date: August 26, 2025
Host(s): Cole Cuchna, Charles Holmes
Guest/Producer: Justin

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Overview

This episode of Last Song Standing, Dissect’s bracket-style showdown of 21st-century albums, pits two underground/alternative hip hop masterpieces against each other: MF DOOM & Madlib’s Madvillainy (2004) and Clipse’s Hell Hath No Fury (2006). Cole Cuchna (host/producer of Dissect) and music writer Charles Holmes each advocate for their pick, exploring the albums’ influence, lyrics, and production, ultimately using a five-category rubric to declare which record advances toward their “greatest album of the 21st century” bracket finale.

The episode features passionate analysis, friendly sparring, detailed beat breakdowns, and spirited discussion about hip hop’s evolution, critical reception, cultural context, and the internet’s role in each album’s legacy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction: Framing the Pairing

• The pairing honors a crucial hip hop subgenre: the critically beloved, “hipster-adjacent” rap that defined Pitchfork-era underground tastes.
• Both Madvillainy and Hell Hath No Fury were sleeper hits, lacking blockbuster sales but building enormous cult and critical followings.
• Charles: "People forget...especially in the early 2000s, Clipse was left for dead, Doom was left for dead... It tells the story of a different type of hip hop starting to have platforms. These are both very Pitchfork-era albums where the critics...were like, no, no, no. These...are exactly what we want to celebrate." [06:03]

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MF DOOM & Madlib’s Madvillainy

Context & Reception

• Released March 23, 2004; now regarded as a top 10 all-time hip hop album.
• Universally lauded by critics (Metacritic 93), but had modest sales and minimal awards.
• Madvillainy’s stature has grown, especially after MF DOOM’s passing, becoming a streaming-era touchstone.
• Charles: "Mad Villainy is streaming more...listened to more today. It's increased in streams every year..." [12:12]

Influence & Cultural Growth

• The “children that grew up on Doom” include artists like Odd Future, Mac Miller, Tyler, the Creator, and many more.
• Iconography (the mask, Adult Swim collab) and internet leaks contributed to mystique and reach.
• Cole: "Anyone that discovered Doom in like 2006, 2007, 2008, they would have Madvillainy to listen to and be like, okay, fuck, this guy's phenomenal."

Madlib’s Production

• Madlib considered one of the most unique rap producers; this album is his “magnum opus.”
• The album’s beats are constructed from obscure samples (funk, jazz, TV, etc.), often with elements (dialogue, odd sounds) that most producers would cut out.
• Cole provides detailed sample-based beat breakdowns for “All Caps,” “Meat Grinder,” and “Figaro.”
  • Quote (Cole): “He’s so good at setting up a song one way...The moment the beat switches is when Doom comes in. It makes his entrance always so impactful.” [30:03]

Doom’s Lyricism & Performance

• Surreal, dense wordplay; playful, “no hooks, all bars” delivery; internal rhyme schemes and motif layering.
• Charles: “Doom is such a performer...It's so weird. You're just like, where is he catching the beat?...But it's all...purposeful but it never feels overbaked...as fans we're like, no! To him he's like, 'oh, it just sound cool.'” [24:35]
• “Figaro” and “Meat Grinder” are highlighted as showcases of Doom’s technical brilliance, multi-layered rhyme schemes, and handclap/clapping-game motifs.

Notable Quotes

• "91% of his verse rhymes syllables." (Cole on "Meat Grinder") [40:31]
• "He actually does the tuning sound...he does that multiple times. Only Doom is doing this stuff." (Cole, on DOOM’s use of onomatopoeia) [40:55]
• “There's themes...he's not just rapping to rhyme.” [32:00]

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Clipse’s Hell Hath No Fury

Context & Reception

• Released Nov 28, 2006 during a complicated label situation (Arista dissolves, Jive drama, multi-year album delay).
• Critically adored (XXL perfect rating, Pitchfork 9.1, etc), and considered a “moment” in hip hop by both hosts, though it didn’t spawn monster hits.
• Spawned essential singles “Mr. Me Too” and “Wamp Wamp,” both produced by The Neptunes.

Thematic & Cultural Influence

• Clipse’s lyrical focus: street life, drug hustle, morality-bitten by guilt/self-reflection; Malice’s transition is foreshadowed by his more confessional verses.
• “The most influential artists of the 21st century: They're influential to Wayne, Drake, Kanye, good music, Tyler, the creator.” (Charles) [72:52]
• Connection to internet-driven fashion (BAPE, skateboarding culture), which was not always adjacent to hip hop before this album. Pharrell’s embrace of skateboard style helped popularize it.

The Neptunes’ Production

• Tracks are characterized by futuristic minimalism, odd textures, and a cartoonish, unnerving cool.
• “Pusha T and Malice can hear something in these beats a lot of times that the other artists can't." (Charles) [83:07]
• “Whamp Whamp” is described as a “space-age Jetsons” beat that many rappers, including Jay-Z, thought were just too weird to handle.

Historical Framing

• Pairing is contextualized within the landscape of 2006 hip hop (Jay’s Kingdom Come, Nas’s Hip Hop is Dead, etc.), with Clipse offering a creative alternative.
• Mixtape run (“We Got it 4 Cheap” series) is cited as a major factor in cultivating buzz and respect during label drama years.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On MF DOOM & Madlib

• “There’s a poetry to the images...It’s just, it just flows. It’s like the beat is so butter. So is his flow.” (Cole, [36:32])
• “He actually makes…the tuning sound…which is like, he does that multiple times…only Doom is doing this stuff.” (Cole, [40:55])
• Charles, on “Accordion”: “Living off borrowed time, the clock ticks faster… when we lost Doom, I was like, oh my god,” [41:41]

On Clipse

• Charles, on Hell Hath No Fury: “This episode is not just about the Thornton brothers. It is about a time in music history that is still reverberating today. It is about fashion. It is about beats. It's about the ecstasy of cocaine and the fall of hubris.” [72:10]
• “Want to know the time? Better clock us / About the style from the shoes to the watches / We cloud hoppers, tailored suits like we mobsters / Break down keys into dimes, sell ‘em like Gobstoppers.” (Malice, “Mr. Me Too” lyric, [85:21])
• “We are the only group that can get 100% out of Pharrell and the Neptunes.” (Charles, [83:54])

On Hip Hop Culture & Criticism

• “I got into music journalism with a chip on my shoulder because it took white publications and white critics to get a record like this… the prestige that they deserved… Street rap, coke rap, all of this is just as important as an ‘Illmatic’… Sometimes it takes people, especially black critics, being like, ‘Hey, yo, we don’t need the white co-sign!’” (Charles, [110:13])

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Key Album Categories & Debates (with Timestamps)

Categories:

1. Biggest Song
2. Best Song
3. Worst Song
4. Best Deep Cut
5. Best Moment

Madvillainy

• Biggest Song: "All Caps" ([20:10])
• Best Song: "Meat Grinder" (Cole), "Accordion" (Charles) ([33:43])
• Worst Song: "Hardcore Hustle" ([46:32])
• Best Deep Cut: "Figaro" ([47:07])
• Best Moment: The unveiling of the metal mask ([57:05]), the album leak, and the impact of DOOM’s death

Hell Hath No Fury

• Biggest Song: "Mr. Me Too" ([72:50])
• Best Song: "Mama, I'm So Sorry" (Charles), shoutout to "Whamp Whamp" ([90:19])
• Worst Song: "Dirty Money" (Charles) / "Trill" (Cole) ([94:51])
• Best Deep Cut: "Keys Open Doors" ([99:54])
• Best Moment: The legendary We Got It 4 Cheap mixtape run ([105:35]), ascent of skate/hipster culture, and Clipse’s perseverance despite industry adversity

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Categories Head-to-Head (Debate Highlights)

• Biggest Song:

  • Debate between present-day cultural impact (“All Caps” eclipse in streams and cult status) vs. real-time moment and eventual cultural domino effect ("Mr. Me Too" impact on subsequent beefs and trends). ([113:00]-[117:17])
  • They ultimately concede "All Caps" is bigger NOW, but "Mr. Me Too" remains more seismic in impact.

• Best Song:

  • "Meat Grinder" (Madvillainy) wins over "Mama, I’m So Sorry" (Clipse) ([117:18])

• Worst Song:

  • Both agree "Hardcore Hustle" (Madvillainy) is worse than any in Clipse. ([117:35])

• Best Moment:

  • Clipse’s mixtape grind and cultural renaissance easily wins for Hell Hath No Fury. ([117:55])

• Best Deep Cut:

  • Heavy debate between "Figaro" (DOOM) and "Keys Open Doors" (Clipse), with Charles passionately championing the latter. Live A/B test on air. ([118:49]-[121:10])

“Plea Deal” and Showdown Conclusion ([122:13]–[128:50])

• In an epic, theatrical portion, Charles and Cole negotiate a “devil’s bargain” on show outcomes: Cole gets Madvillainy in the finale, Charles gets Discovery.
• Justin, the show’s “referee,” reveals the actual tie-breaker picks, confirming the “deal” was the way to go.
• Charles: “This was my supervillain plan!” Cole: “You got me, Charles. I’m gonna take the plea deal.”

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Additional Segments

Cultural Exchange (Rock/Pop Sidebar) ([134:45]–[146:38])

• Cole assigns The Strokes' Is This It to Charles; Charles assigns The Killers’ Hot Fuss to Cole. They discuss sequencing, “cool factor,” and the importance of synthesizers in early 2000s rock.
• Next episode’s cultural exchange: Both commit to deeply engaging with D’Angelo’s Voodoo in honor of the R&B focus to come.

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Conclusion

Final Outcome

MF DOOM & Madlib’s Madvillainy advances, but only after an intense and creative negotiation—an apt capper to one of the series’ most lively, engaging debates.

Cole: “Let’s honor what we were going to do...we are picking the right album. Madvillainy, Madlib and Doom.” [128:39]
Charles: “This is good podcasting.” [128:54]

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Summary Table: Album Category Face-Offs

| Category | Madvillainy | Hell Hath No Fury | Winner | |-----------------|---------------------------|---------------------------|-------------------------------| | Biggest Song | All Caps | Mr. Me Too | (Split/Negotiated) | | Best Song | Meat Grinder | Mama, I’m So Sorry | Madvillainy | | Worst Song | Hardcore Hustle | Dirty Money/Trill | Hell Hath No Fury | | Best Deep Cut | Figaro | Keys Open Doors | (Contested; negotiation) | | Best Moment | DOOM’s mask/cultural rise | Mixtape run/scene impact | Hell Hath No Fury |

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Episode Tone

The episode is fiercely passionate but full of playful rivalry, expert-level technical breakdowns, and deep reverence for hip hop’s underdog legends. The hosts go from irreverent to scholarly and never lose sight of hip hop’s cultural stakes or the stakes of their own friendly competition.

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This summary aims to capture the depth of conversation, major critical insights, and the memorable, quotable moments that make this a must-listen for both hip hop heads and pop music fans interested in how 21st-century albums became myth.

Transcript

[Charles Holmes]

Foreign.

[Cole Kushna]

Welcome, everyone, to Last Song Standing. I'm Cole Kushna.

[Charles Holmes]

And I'm Charles Holmes. And in this fourth season of Last Song Standing, Cole and I are debating our way through some of the best albums of the past 25 years in order to crown the greatest album of the 21st century so far. AKA the last album Standing.

[Cole Kushna]

Last Episode. Extremely contentious.

[Charles Holmes]

More, would you say more contentious than Blueprint versus Versus Lemonade?

[Cole Kushna]

Well, it would have been, but we copped out. It was our first ever stalemate. I had Radiohead's Kid A, you had Daft Punk, Discovery. Both phenomenal albums. However, we do have a tiebreaker for today. Unless you are ready to do the right thing and just concede that Radiohead Kid A is the right album, I.

[Charles Holmes]

Will just say we have a surprise later, and if it goes the way I'm expecting it to go, I'm going to have a very, very long monologue about the problem with music criticism and rock centrality to music criticism at the cost of other genres that I would argue are more important to the story of the 21st century.

[Cole Kushna]

Sound very defensive already.

[Charles Holmes]

I'll just put it to you this way. You didn't go to the streets. That's all I'll say.

[Cole Kushna]

Or to dance.

[Charles Holmes]

Right.

[Cole Kushna]

Let's not belabor it. But I'm feeling pretty good about the season. I mean, Discovery, Kid A, they're both winners, so we're gonna have one of those albums. We have Eminem, Marsha Mathers lp. We have Beyonce's Lemonade and My Beautiful Dark, Twisted Fantasy. It feels like a good list so far.

[Charles Holmes]

It feels like a good list. But I will also say now that these episodes are starting to roll out, people are catching on. They're just like, hey, yo, how could you put Igor against Eminem? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And part of me wants to be like to everyone like this. This process was just as hard for us as it was like. I don't think you guys actually realize we've had arguments about what else.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

With each other.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, it's. It's. Yeah, it's harder than you think. Today's episode, though, I feel like, is like a perfect pairing.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

And we're honoring a part of a certain sub genre of hip hop that it's very near and dear to my heart. So want to reread the rules real fast, and then we'll get into the album picks. So just as a reminder, every episode, Charles and I each nominate one album we think should be in contention for the 21st century's best. Each album gets its own half of the episode where we'll make a case for why. Why that album is one of the best in the last 25 years. Then, at the end of the episode, the two albums will go head to head, and Charles and I will debate until we can agree on one winner.

[Charles Holmes]

The winning album from each episode advances to the season finale, Royal Rumble. That's where Cole I will face off one last time, eliminating albums one by one until we can crown the greatest album of the 21st century, aka the last album. Standing. Standing. Standing. Actually, I could have. I could have asked Kev just to do that in post, you know, to make it more.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, yeah, he'll. He'll. He'll do it. He'll work his magic.

[Charles Holmes]

But, Cole, now that that's out of the way, what album. What albums are we nominated for?

[Cole Kushna]

For. For today's episode, I'm going with unarguable classic Mad Villainies. MF Doom, Mad Lib. Mad Villainy. Just a fucking phenomenal album.

[Charles Holmes]

And I'm going with Clipse's Hell hath no Fury. Whatever it costs, baby, we got answers. Line outside full of jojo dancers do it like the robot to head spin to boogaloo? Took a few minutes to convince the average book of you? I know what you think and why I call you. Me too. Cause everything I say I got you saved? Me too? I say I got a Ben? You say me too? Oh, yeah. It's like they know what's about to happen. Just keep your eye out. Like I, I Capping. Is he still a fly guy? How did you end up with Mad Villainy? At first, I was gonna do Mad Villainy, but we kept. We kept kind of like. We're just like. Cuz. Mad Villainy is. Is an album that looms so large over hip hop, and I think after Doom's tragic passing recipes to Doom, I think it has just grown in stature.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

So we were actually, like, searching, searching.

[Cole Kushna]

Searching for the perfect pairing and something that could hold its weight against Mad Villainy.

[Charles Holmes]

And a lot of people might call this recency bias. We kind of went through a bunch of albums, and it wasn't until we got to the clips where I was like, oh, this makes sense.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. I mean, full transparency. This Mad Villainy was gonna go against 50 Cent for a long time. Yeah, that was kind of our plan because that tells its own story in terms of the direction of hip hop. But I feel like we've honored the fifth. Like, with Eminem, with Jay Z. We've kind of honored that side of hip hop, especially during the early 2000s. So this pairing to me honors that kind of underground. It's hard to call it underground because these guys are so popular, but a side of hip hop that we haven't actually got to talk about and we'll be able to talk about it all episode, which I'm very excited about because this, this is kind of where I. This is the hip hop that I just love.

[Charles Holmes]

Well, actually, why I think this episode makes a lot of sense thematically to your point is when you think of doom and you think of clips, especially in the last couple years, because they're such big figures at this point and because they're so iconic, I think people forget that in the early 2000s especially Clipse was left 4 dead, Doom was left 4 dead. The even when these albums were released, they didn't Mad Villain didn't sell gangbusters, neither did Hell Hath no Fury. But it tells the story of a, I think a different type of hip hop starting to have platforms where to me these are both very Pitchfork era albums where the critics of that time were like, no, no, no. These two underground or underground esque artists are exactly what we want to celebrate about music. And I think what we both might be talking about is how weirdly influential both of like doom and clips especially just became. Where I can't think of like when you think of Earl, when you think of Tyler, when you think of good music, when you think of everything that happened, like west coast, just everything, you're just like, oh, it is in these albums.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, it's similar to the kid a discovery conversation we have in terms of influence. And I think for if we're looking at the century historically, we talked about, you know, in our opening episode this season, we are focusing a lot on hip hop because hip hop is the prominent genre of the century. And just like rock music in the 20th century, you know, as it grew, as the genre became kind of the most dominant genre in popular music, you know, you start to see within the genre things splintering and so you start to get sub genres. And the same thing is to me, you know, the early 2000s where we start to see that split where as there's. There's becomes a more commercial commercial, of course there's kind of always been there. But as the, as hip hop grew, it just gave more space for the clips of the world, for the dunes of the world, because there was an audience to fulfill each of these sub genres. And then, then you have subgenres. Within sub genres. And so, yeah, you can't have that. You can't have those kind of sub genres without that, without the overall genre of hip hop becoming so enormous.

[Charles Holmes]

And I would also say both of these in the same way that Kid A and Discovery are coming out at a time where the Internet is like in its infancy and you can't tell the story of those albums without the Internet. Mad Villainy very famously leaked, you know, and it almost grew. This was an album that was not necessarily supposed to save stone's Throw. That was not. This was not the album that they were like, this is gonna be the one. And we might talk about the history of that, but like, fans heard the leak and it like slowly, slowly, slowly builds. And I think same thing with clips where it's like we are going to talk about them getting all of their label woes and label dramas and with their mixtape series and just pounding the pave, they became a very. Both of these artists became very hipster, as the clips called them. Clipsters.

[Cole Kushna]

Right?

[Charles Holmes]

This is a certain type of fan, especially white suburban fan that was always there for hip hop. But I think the Internet just blows it out of the water and, you know, to wrap it up. I think that's why this pairing to me is going to be so fun, because it is telling two sides of the same coin of hipster rap in the early 2000s.

[Cole Kushna]

All right, we're ready to get into first album we go on. Mad Villain first.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

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[Charles Holmes]

Fast.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, yeah. Extra napkins, last minute guac bowls, backup phone chargers, even a replacement remote.

[Charles Holmes]

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[Cole Kushna]

I feel like I've ordered all of those things. We're talking everything you need for game day. Fast, fast. Free delivery. It's on Prime. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. There's one thing I'm going to make sure I pack for my summer vacation. It's my Apple card. I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including fuel for my car and booking places to stay. Plus, I don't have to worry about fees, including foreign transaction fees, which is perfect when I'm planning to travel abroad. To get an Apple card for your summer travels, apply in the wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on credit worthiness rates as of July 1, 2025 terms and [e-mail] all right, so Mad Villainy comes out on March 23, 2004. Two official singles, I guess you could call them singles. Money folder and all caps. First week sales are unknown. This is. But you know, where it lacks in like Grammy awards and first week sales. We already touched on critical reception of this thing was pretty much universal in terms of acclaim. It has a 93 on Metacritic. It, you know, it's top five, top 10 on like every hip hop, greatest hip hop album of all time list to kind of continue the conversation. It did remind me like returning to the, you know, the build up of the album, the release of the album and reading about that, it reminded me of Discovery a little bit because in the same way, like Discovery was a slow burn, phenomenal album that was recognized in its time, but would just continue to grow in. In terms of like Revere, um, Mad Villainy feels similar in terms of like people like Justin probably like loved it on day one. But as Doom grew, as he paired with Cartoon Network and his kind of his, the iconography of Doom just continued to grow. We had this like anchoring album to his career. So anyone that discovered doom in like 2006, 2007, 2008, they would have Mad Villainy to listen to and be like, okay, fuck, this guy's just phenomenal. In the same way, if you discovered Daft Punk after Kanye west, you had this body of work in Discovery that it just anchors their entire career.

[Charles Holmes]

And I also think what we're speaking to is that it was the children that grew up on Doom that I think the mics of the world, Odd future, Mac Miller. I think you got a lot of artists from all across the country that this time, this album meant a lot to them. And that's how I think a lot of kids even younger than us start like Mad Villain becomes an urban outfitters. Right. It becomes. It becomes a poster that it was already that. But think about how crazy it is in 2025. Mad villainy is streaming more.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

And is listened to more today. I think it's increased in streams. Spotify at one point did a thing where it was just like in 2023.

[Cole Kushna]

It'S like 75% each year, year over year increase. Something like that.

[Charles Holmes]

Insanity that does not happen. And for an artist as weird as Doom, for it to happen for him is something I never could have predicted. If I'm gonna be 100% honest, because I was a Doom kid, I fell in love with him because of the Adult Swim album. And then I was just like, I had cousins and everybody be like, nah, adult swim school. But like mad villainy food. And that was when I was like, oh, oh, this.

[Cole Kushna]

Hell yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Justin, do you have anything you wanted to, to say up front about it before we get into trivia?

[Justin]

I mean, you're right. I had been listening to Doom for a while at that point. Right. Like I had Operation, Operation Doomsday. This was the year after Vaudeville Villain, the Victor Vaughn record came out, which I absolutely loved. But it was, it was cool because Mad Lib had put out a bunch of. I mean this was like the biggest Mad Lib record to that point too. And I think we talk about the doom, doom, doom of it all, but I'm sure you guys are gonna get into it. Mad Lib is on the list, you know, maybe the medium length list of best rap producers ever.

[Cole Kushna]

Right.

[Justin]

And this is kind of his magnum opus in a lot of ways. So, you know, it was just, it was a kind of a crazy pairing that didn't necessarily make sense if you were familiar with both of those artists up to that point. But when you heard it, it was, you know, there's a reason we're discussing it 21 years later on this episode.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

And I think even at the time, I think Mad Lib was a little bit out on hip hop. Like this wasn't. Jeff Weiss has a really, really amazing piece of Pitchfork where it tells the story of this album, but it's also telling the story of Stone's Throw Bad Lib. And he was, he was making jazz records. It wasn't like he. I think he said the two people that he wanted to work with were Doom and, and J Dilla. And the Dilla record was the one that I think the label was actually counting on because at that point they had no money and it was the leak and it was a lot of things that happened that ended up making Mad Villainy the one that actually becomes the, the record that helps save them. Yeah.

[Justin]

Cause he put out Champion Sound with J Dilla a few years before that. And I think it's like there's, there's something to be interesting to say, say about what you guys said about what an artist's death can really like do to these records. Cuz, you know, that Dilla record kind of went like underground. Heads loved it, but it, it didn't really blow Up.

[Charles Holmes]

Right.

[Justin]

It wasn't like. It wasn't like this huge thing. A lot of the Dilla stuff blew up a couple years later after his unfortunate passing. I think this record was beloved from day one, but I think it's only really increased in its acclaim in the past five years since Word of Doom's death came out.

[Charles Holmes]

Are you. Were you disappointed when, like, were you someone who was listening to the leak and when he rerecord all the vocals, you're like, nah, no, no.

[Justin]

The only track. And I'm wrong about this now, but it's just one of those things you get used to hearing. And you can actually a B test now because the. The leak, the demos are on Spotify now, but the only track was Figaro. I really liked the sped up Figaro.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Justin]

And I got used to listening that from the whatever I downloaded mp3s I downloaded off a Kaza or Limewire or whatever. And I just like, I burned that on cd. I listened to that a bunch. And then when the record came out, I'm like, ah, I don't like this. Slow down. But like, Now I listen 20 years later. I'm like, no, that was the right decision to slow that down.

[Charles Holmes]

Hell yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

Ready for some album trivia?

[Charles Holmes]

We are trivia. Here's the thing. You did a. You did a season on this. I tried to keep them fair, but they might be easy. I have three for you today.

[Cole Kushna]

Three. Okay. I got three for you actually today, so. And let's. Let's. Let's read the rules because we forgot to do that last time. And I have. I took a tally of the score so far.

[Charles Holmes]

Oh, all right.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. So the rules of album trivia. Charles and I attempt to stump each other with little known facts about the album. Every correct answer is one point. And whoever has the most total points at the end of the season wins a mystery prize selected by our producer, Justin. The total so far, you are in the lead. You have four points. I have three points.

[Charles Holmes]

Ooh.

[Justin]

So for the entire season.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Justin]

You guys gotta study.

[Charles Holmes]

Whoa. I've been getting a lot of questions right. Yeah, we've only. This is the fourth episode.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. This is episode five.

[Charles Holmes]

Episode five? What? That's like a point in episode?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, And I struggled in the beginning, and you also made them very hard in the beginning.

[Charles Holmes]

So these are. These, to me, are very easy.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

How you have to get both of these right. There's no half points for this question, but there's two not doing half points.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

How much was the budget for Mad villainy. And what was Doom's advance?

[Cole Kushna]

His advance was fifteen hundred dollars.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

When he. Apparently there's some kind of argument with the manager when they first got to la, the.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

Famous story with the owner of Stone store was trying to keep the Doom's manager in the hotel room like one.

[Charles Holmes]

Corner so him and Mad Lib could be smoking weed and listening to beats. And he's like. The longer I could keep like Doom's person away from him because they didn't have the money at this point, like Stone's throw was about to go the way of like Fondleum, where it was just like they were. I think what. They were in like a house. They didn't even have an office. It was just like a house where a bunch of them stayed.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

So you got half of it. But to get the full point I need. What was the actual budget?

[Cole Kushna]

Fuck, I don't know the actual budget. I'm going to guess 10,000.

[Charles Holmes]

Really close. It was 13,000.

[Cole Kushna]

I get a half point at least.

[Charles Holmes]

No, no, no. You would know. Half points. We're not doing half points. That was easy, Justin.

[Cole Kushna]

Do I deserve a half point or not?

[Charles Holmes]

She deserves a half point. No, we're not doing half points.

[Cole Kushna]

I gave you a half point last episode.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah, but I've been robbed. I've been robbed two episodes in a row. So we're not doing half points. That's bitch made shit wrong. All right, I have. I have another question. All right, this is easy, but it's also a two parter. What two albums?

[Cole Kushna]

Keep saying it's easy, but there's two.

[Charles Holmes]

What two albums inspired? Jeff Jenks cover for Mad villainy?

[Cole Kushna]

Madonna.

[Charles Holmes]

Madonna's 1993 self titled.

[Cole Kushna]

And is it the King Crimson album?

[Charles Holmes]

I need the name.

[Cole Kushna]

I need the album name too.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

I don't know.

[Charles Holmes]

It's.

[Justin]

Can I. It's in the court of the King Crimson.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

What's.

[Justin]

Can I give that to Cole?

[Charles Holmes]

No, no, no. We are. We are locking in for the rest of the season.

[Justin]

Actually.

[Charles Holmes]

I will say you get that. That is a point. I'm being mean. That is a point. I'm not giving you a half point. But that is one point on the board.

[Cole Kushna]

I'll take it. I'll take it. Okay, question three.

[Charles Holmes]

Which Mad Villainy contributor ended up becoming Doom and Mad Libs lawyer for a time?

[Cole Kushna]

Stacey Epps.

[Charles Holmes]

Another point on the fucking board. Another fucking point on the board. Good job. See? Why were you begging for a half point? You got two points on the board.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. Hey, I'm Happy. I'm not arguing. Two points, baby. I'm in the lead.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, so now that album trivia is out of the way, you got two on the board. We're going to the categories for those that have forgotten. For this season of last song standing, we have five categories to decide which album is the best biggest song, best song, worst song, best teap cut, and best moment. And at the end of the episode, these five categories will go head to head to determine which album we will bring in to the season finale Royal Rumble.

[Cole Kushna]

I'm so excited. Biggest song, first category. All caps should have let your trick.

[Charles Holmes]

Hold chick hold your sick glow plus nobody couldn't do nothing once he let the brick go and you know I know that's a bunch of snow the beat is so butter Peep the slow cutter as he utter the calm flow don't talk about my mom Joe sometimes Wait, is this technically the biggest song?

[Cole Kushna]

I. Justin, I thought this was obvious. All caps is the biggest song, right?

[Justin]

It's the first single. It has that legendary video, and it has the most streams.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Oh, I didn't check the streams. I would assume accordion had more streams than this.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, no. Accordion is not as popular as you. I mean, it's one of the more popular ones. But to just to give the comparison. All caps as 214 million streams on Spotify, accordion as 100 million.

[Charles Holmes]

Whoa.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

I love all caps. Yo, start us off.

[Cole Kushna]

I mean, hard to know. I'm going to do a lot of beat breakdown because we got to honor mad Lib. So I'm going to do a little beat breakdown in a second. But I feel like this is just, you know, we talked a lot about Eminem and, like, what makes for us, what makes Eminem great in terms of, like, what kind of production we think works well with him? It's because, you know, we talked about. We liked Eminem over production that was a little quirky because it kind of offsets some of the seriousness that he can kind of dip into a little bit too much. If you have a serious beat and he's really angry, it's just a little too much. And I feel like in a similar way, there's a really odd juxtaposition between Doom's naturally low baritone, growly voice and production. Like all caps where it's quirky, it's literally coming from crime shows from the 70s, fictional crime shows from the 70s. The samples are. The production is sampling those, and it just creates this really interesting dichotomy of this baritone grumbly guy rapping over cartoon music essentially. And I think All Caps is like maybe the most extreme example of that on Mad Villainy. But of course Doom's doing similar things on his solo, you know, his solo records that he produces himself. And I think All Caps speaks to what makes Mad Villainy so special is that Mad Lib, both Mad Lib and Doom know how to approach production like this, which is like 9 out of 10 rappers or more would just not know how to rap over a beat like this. And yet Doom, it just flows so perfectly together. I'm assuming that you are a fan of All Caps.

[Charles Holmes]

Who isn't? Only is the rapping so good on this, but to your point, what I love about this project, what I love about this song is that Doom is such a performer. And I think what Mad Villainy does is it crystallizes the image where obviously you got Operation Doomsday, M Food, all of these other things. But I think a the COVID it not being drawn, it being him straight on, black and white. You seeing this, you're just like, oh, this isn't a gimmick, this is clicking. And I think there is a moment where he raps the beat is so butter Peep the slow cutter as he uttered the calm flow don't talk about his mom's yo Sometimes he rhyme times he rhyme slow or vice versa Whip a slice of nice first pie he's like literally in that moment breaking down in a couple bars. What makes him special as a rapper. And you're like, oh that's super easy to do. But I'm like, but when you listen to him, it's so weird. You're just like where is he catching the beat? And there's internal rhymes and there's also to your point, the madlib beat in the background is coming from all of these areas. But it's all. It's two things. It's purposeful but it never feels over baked. It never feels overthought. I was reading an Excel a XXL interview that Doom was doing and he was like talking about these records and talking about his best verses and it's so funny where he talks about them as like, oh, that was just a freestyle. It just get like this was a freestyle or this thing just came to me. It's actually not. He was talking about all caps and what it meant and it was so interesting him being like oh no. Like I was just thinking about like well one day it's not going to be all caps but like I. He's like, I would like it to be. And I was like, oh, we think of this as like. You'd be like all caps when you say the name. As fans were like, no. Yes. And to him, he's like, oh, no. It just sound cool.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, that's this. It's another point why these guys worked so well together. Because they're like, not perfectionists, but they're. They make perfect music.

[Charles Holmes]

They're intentional.

[Cole Kushna]

Intentional but not perfectionist. And they move fucking quickly. And they're not belaboring. They're not obsessing over every detail. It's like once the songs, like Mad Libs famously doesn't return to beats, he'll make the loop and it is what it is once it's recorded and on a beat cd. Like, he doesn't fucking go back. And he'll remember. He'll. He won't remember what he sampled from. You know, it's like. And I feel like doom is the same way, especially on this album in terms of like, okay, here's the one minute song. I'm not overthinking this. I'm going to write my verse, I'm going to record the verse, and we're moving on. And it's like, what I love about Mad Villainy and this song, there's no hooks. You forget that this album has zero hooks. Because everything is catchy. The beats are catchy. The way rhymes are catchy. There's little to your point about Eminem. There's micro hooks. Like the all caps moment. There's a few micro hooks on this. Or like we think of the Figaro. You know, the Figaro Figaro. He has all these little quirky, memorable moments, but there's no hooks on the entire album.

[Charles Holmes]

To your point, when I was on Genius. Cause like, I always like to just like read the lyrics before we get on here. I was like, wait, where's the hook? And then I was just. I remembered. I'm like, no, Charles, you think that the beat is the hook, which is a weird thing. I sound like an idiot saying that out loud, but I'm like, no. I've internalized this record as like Mad Lib is providing such a sonic bed for these very. Like, the rhymes seem incoherent. They are not. If you actually look at them structurally, they are some of the best well structured rapping you will ever see. But because he's so lackadaisical and the beats have so many different. Like this cartoon, this evil cartoon, this, like, weird Brazilian sample, this thing. You're just like, oh, no. Yeah, there's hooks all over this and there's just not.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. Okay, so let's do our first beat breakdown of the episode. This is one of my favorite beats ever. It's so cool. So the drums come from a sample from a song called Bumpin Bus by Thumb, Thunder and Lightning, 1974. And Madlib finds just this, like, one measure of drums that don't have any other instruments, and he. He creates a loop out of it. So here's the original sample.

[Charles Holmes]

Get down with the Bus Stop.

[Cole Kushna]

So just that little part that has no instruments, he identifies that and then creates a loop out of it. So add some EQ and stuff, and you get this loop. So it's like. I just find that stuff cool because, like, you know, he's crate digging, he's listening to vinyls, and it's like. It's so, like, he must be listening to just, like, vinyls all day long.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

And to have the ear to hear.

[Charles Holmes]

Get down with the Bus Stop that.

[Cole Kushna]

It's like half a second.

[Charles Holmes]

Yep.

[Cole Kushna]

And be like, oh, there's no. You know, like, that's a loop. I can grab that. And then grabs it. And then we have. All the Music from All Caps comes from an episode of Ironside. Ironside was a 70s crime drama, essentially. And so he must have been watching it on a TV because the actual sounds of the episode are in it. It's not like he got a soundtrack on vinyl or anything because you can hear the talking. We're gonna hear a car going by. So let me just play the original sample where all the music from All Caps comes from. Okay. So you hear all. Did you hear all the little bits in there? And so what's cool is that, like, all this, the piano and those quirky hits are all, like, right next to each other. And that.

[Charles Holmes]

That.

[Cole Kushna]

That swelling sound that I was pointing to, that's a car driving by in the episode.

[Charles Holmes]

Right.

[Cole Kushna]

But it sounds like an instrument, like, swelling up. So it really works to the effect of the beat. So he grabs this sample for the piano and then loops it, so. And then grabs this sample for the main melody. And then when you put it over the drums, it's fucking just magic. Something I'm going to be pointing out on a lot of the songs is this is the underrated part about Mad Lib, especially on this album. He is so good at setting up a song one way in terms of, like, we hear this piano first, right. And it presents to us. That's super dark and grimy. Right. And so the last thing we're going to expect as he's laying the tone of the track in the intro, is it to switch to this and what they do nine times out of the 10 on the album, if you listen for this throughout the entire album, listen for the setup of the song where usually Doom is not rapping. And the moment the beat switches is when Doom comes in.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

So it makes this kind of grand entrance for Doom, and it makes his entrance always so impactful. He does the same thing on Figaro and Meat Grinder we'll talk about. But it's like he's. He's like a good producer. He's setting up Doom. Like, he's enhancing Doom's raps with the production through contrast. Like that, which is just so cool.

[Charles Holmes]

Hell, yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

First beat, breakdown. Are you impressed? You like this kind of stuff? This is stuff I fucking love.

[Charles Holmes]

This is actually. When we were planning the episodes, I didn't think that we would. This wasn't something I was expecting. But, like, I also like this coming after, like, Daft Punk and Radiohead, because it is teaching you another way to sample. And what I. This is when I'm becoming, as a child, more interested in the art of it. And it's. To me, what's so funny is, like, there's the RZA way of sampling and the stuff. He's growing up in New York, which is like the. These Kung Fu Shaw Brothers movies, but you have like, Timbaland, who was going and using, like, fucking Bollywood samples. And it's just like. It's this interesting thing where it's like, oh, you have Mad Lib on the west coast, you have RZA on the east coast, you have people in Virginia and you have Daft Punk in France. And all of this is kind of happening at the same time. 90s, 2000s of just like, the technology is getting better, so the crate digging is getting more and more complex. And I just love listening to this record because it's like you have British TV shows, you have. Some of the lyrics are bringing up Hannah Barbera cartoons, but then there's Hannah Barbera samples. It's just like there are parts every single time I listen to these songs where I hear that, I'm like, oh, that's the first time I'm hearing.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. And then you already kind of pointed to it. But the rapping on this is like, so good. Just even the opening lines, so nasty. That's probably somewhat of a travesty, having me. Then he told the people, you can call me your majesty. So it's just internal after internal. And it's just like, he does it so effortlessly, where it doesn't feel like lyrical miracle. And there's a quirkiness and an abstractness and, like, a surrealism to his lyrics, always where you're just like, what did he say? Is he just speaking gibberish? And then, like, I did a season on this, and it's like, no, there's themes. He's, you know, there's center. It's not just rapping to rhyme.

[Charles Holmes]

And that's why I think a lot of people who try to emulate Doom fail. Because I'm like, if he wasn't a great performer and he wasn't entertaining and he wasn't choosing the correct beats, all of this would just be fucking mush. But because every single element works and elevates him, that's why I think mad villainy is the one people were like. Cause it's the moment where it's like. It might not be your favorite Doom record, but I feel like it was the moment. Doom and Madlib especially, was just like, we are going to show you everything that actually makes him a genius. Just in case y', all, like, weren't tapped.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. All right, so anything else? You want to move on? Best song.

[Charles Holmes]

Very, very interested in. In where you're gonna go for best. Like, I'm so interested because there's one correct choice, and we don't pick it.

[Cole Kushna]

There's one correct choice?

[Charles Holmes]

Yes. Even though it is very.

[Cole Kushna]

Justin, do you have a best song on this? It's. It was hard. I, I.

[Justin]

It's been really hard. It's really hard.

[Charles Holmes]

It's really hard. But.

[Justin]

But you just have this one correct choice, and you just really.

[Charles Holmes]

It's like, it's similar. It's similar to, like, there's. There's a couple choices on Hell have no Fury, but there's. There's. There's one you got to do. There's. There's one you have to pick. And if you don't pick it, I'm gonna be mad Cole, what was it?

[Cole Kushna]

Shout out Accordion Damn, I knew I.

[Charles Holmes]

Know where you're going.

[Cole Kushna]

It has to be Meat Grinder.

[Charles Holmes]

It has to be Meat Grinder Tripping off the beat kind of dripping off the meat grinder Heat niner pimping, stripping straight, soft, sweet, minor China was a neat sign of trouble with the script Digits double dip, bubble lick subtleist, borderline skit.

[Cole Kushna]

Was it your pick?

[Charles Holmes]

It was not. Accordion's my pick. Meat Grinder is close.

[Cole Kushna]

Meat Grinder is. The rapping on Meat Grinder is phenomenal.

[Justin]

It's the best rapping of his career.

[Cole Kushna]

Possibly. It really is. It's. It's so good.

[Charles Holmes]

Meat Grinder is really good.

[Cole Kushna]

It's really good. It was tough though. Shout out at accordion. We can talk about accordion.

[Charles Holmes]

But why'd you go with Meat Grinder?

[Cole Kushna]

I guess two reasons. Once I. Because I was debating. These were the two that I was debating. And it came down to when I reminded myself what he's doing lyrically. I'm going to do a little breakdown of just how much he's rhyming on the song. So just like to Justin's point, some of the best rapping he's ever done. Arguably maybe his best. And then the beat itself is just so weird. Where accordion. It's more. It's of the. Of the beats on A TR Of. It might be my favorite beat on there, but it's like. Of the. Of the beats on Mad Villain. It's kind of the most traditional.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

Where Meat Grinder to me just shows a little bit more what makes this album click, what makes it special, what makes it unique. Because who else is grabbing a sample from Mothers of Invention, a Frank Zappa band, then. Then juxtaposing against like the song called Hula Rock. I could do the beat breakdown, but it was just like arguably Mad Lib's most inventive beat paired with arguably Doom's best rapping.

[Charles Holmes]

I mean, tripping off the beat, kind of dripping off the meat grind of heat. Not a pippin stripping soft sweet matter is ing sane. And it just. Everything I love about rap, it's.

[Cole Kushna]

And it sounds good. It's like, what is he saying? I don't know. It's.

[Charles Holmes]

But also like when I just rap that, it's just like. But I'm just like if you're gonna break down these lyrics. The internal rhyme of just like in the rhyming. Tripping with dripping. But then he's forcing the kinda grinder Nina. Like it's just. You're just like, what? And it's just. What I love about Doom. This is how I could tell he's such a great rapper. Is that a lot of rappers who would do this. And like as we get into the 21st century and the. The very hashtag flow. So much of rap. Lil Wayne was at the spearhead of this. Was pointing to how clever you were.

[Cole Kushna]

Right.

[Charles Holmes]

Where Doom never does that. He'll just like.

[Cole Kushna]

And when he's doing rapidly rappy stuff like it never feels gross.

[Charles Holmes]

No, it's always just like, no, I'm that good. Why would I. Why would I have to point to it? Listen, you'll understand.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, and there's just a poetry to. To the images. And just. Even when you're reading it, like half wrapping it, it was just like. It just flows. It's just. It's like the beat is so butter. So is this flow. Okay, so let me just do a quick beat breakdown because I gotta keep honoring Mad Lib because, you know, this is. To Justin's point, it is a true duo here. So we have the first sample, like I said, which is a Mother Invention song, which I think maybe he saw on a TV ad, because it was a. Where I got this sample source was from a TV ad. And so here's just the. The sample plane. Like, that part is so weird, but so good. And then he pretty much does it verbatim and creates these little micro loops in the intro, so. And then again, another kind of juxtaposition in terms of setting you up in this sonic universe of. Of this Frank Zappa song and then just switching it to an entirely new thing in this Lou Howard and the All Stars hula rock beat sample. So classic Mad Lib. He doesn't do much to it. Just speeds it up, adds some EQ and stuff. But it's so good. And then one of my favorite parts is that there's not much from the Frank Zappa song on the actual beat when we get there. But there is one little sample that he does pull and it comes at the very end of the TV ad. So let me just play the very end of the TV ad here. Do you recognize that little sound that's in the song? I don't know.

[Charles Holmes]

I know it's in the song.

[Cole Kushna]

I don't know what it is. It's like when you see the TV ad, we could put it up. I think it's like a pig or something that's making the noise. I don't know if that's the actual pig, but that's what they put on the screen. So now that you heard it isolated, now hear it in the beat, it's just like.

[Charles Holmes]

But what I also love about Madlib as well is that he doesn't cut. Like other producers would cut the quirky stuff out of the loop. Or like they would pick it, but they wouldn't keep that in.

[Cole Kushna]

Right?

[Charles Holmes]

They'd be like, this is what the fuck? And he's always. Whether it was the car sound where he's listening to stuff, he's like, no, no, no. This is why I'm. This is why I'm taking this part of it. Like, it and what. A lot of times when people listen to this album, they might call it like, oh, Dusty. Or just kind of just like what is. It's hard to describe the texture, but to me I'm just like, the beats are so good because they're as textured as Doom's rapping. They're as weird where it's like sometimes you're just like, wait, what the fuck did Doom just say? And with the beats that point where it's like, what did I just hear? What was that? Like, I have never done the thing that you did where it was just like, wait, what's that? It was just. I'm like that. This is a weird fucking part of me. I don't know.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. Okay, then let me just go over some, like some stats about the rhyming. Because to your point about the opening song or the opening lyric, it's like essentially almost every single syllable in this song rhymes. So I, for when I did the episode on this, I actually counted the syllables and then found how many rhyme. There's a total of 350 syllables in the song. 318 out of those 350 rhyme, that's 91% of his verse rhymes syllables. And in the verse rhyme, which is like.

[Charles Holmes]

Isn't that like.

[Cole Kushna]

It's crazy. And I just have to point out my favorite, my favorite moment in the song where he says hatuing songs lit in the booth with the best host doing bong hits. And on the roof in the west coast. So but he actually makes. Instead of saying spitting songs like I'm spitting, I'm rhyming.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

He actually does the tuning sound.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

Which is like. He does that multiple times. We'll talk about the snot bubble pop. It's just like only Doom is doing this stuff. And then of course like the whole thing rhymes and I love that it's described. So this was. I think the first song that they wrote together was Meat Grinder. I think I'm remembering.

[Charles Holmes]

I do believe that's correct.

[Cole Kushna]

And so it's cool. This line I like about this line is that he's talking about him and Mad Library. Too many songs in the booth with the best host referring to Mad Lib doing bong hits on the roof and the west coast referring to the rooftop. There's pictures of them hanging out with an actual bong on this rooftop in. On the west coast in la. And then he says he's at it again. Mad at the pen. Which is again saying mad at the pen, pointing to mad lib. It's like, so cool. I love this fucking song. Are you mad that I didn't pick Accordion?

[Charles Holmes]

No, no, no. I think that this is, like, a great pick. The reason why, like, as a writer, I think I. Accordion is the song to me is a. To me, Accordion is a top 10 hip hop song of all time. One of my favorite openings, if not my favorite opening line of all time. Like, it almost makes me cry. Like, it made me cry. Like, I listened to this after he died when he was, like, living off borrowed time. The clock ticks faster. That'd be the hour they knocked the slick black. Like, I remember when we lost dude, I was like. Like what? Like, I was just like, oh, my God. And I just kept listening to this song. And to me, accordion. There's always been this tragedy under Doom's music where after he loses his brother, after he's basically kicked. Not kicked out of the industry, but, like, his life falls apart. And Accordion to me is when he kind of like, centers in on that sad part of his career because he's like this cartoon villain and food and look at all the crazy stuff he's doing. But there is a level of him trying to come to terms with who he is within this world. And it's not lost on me that he has to. The minute he puts on a mask for the industry is the minute that the industry finally takes. Takes him serious, quote, unquote, seriously. And there's also this line that he says on accordion or this whole part of the verse where know who's the illest, like, ever, like, the greatest story told. Keep your glory glow, golden glitter for half. Half of these niggas that take him out the picture. The other half is rich and it don't mean shit to villain a m between both with a twist of liquor. What is so funny to me is that there are two dooms that I know in my mind. There is the doom that is so hip hop to the core. When we think of what the tenets of the culture is. This is someone who was a student of the game, who loves it, who was just like, if Doom was in it for the money, quote unquote, he would have made a lot of different.

[Cole Kushna]

Decisions with his career.

[Charles Holmes]

And it's like him basically being like, to the industry, like, I see how fast you will sell out the game and the genre that we love. And then there's the villain side of Doom, who was just in it for the money, who was literally just like, I am not coming to LA unless y' all pay me my fucking advance. Like, there is a reason why. Why for years, the thing that people would talk about, Doom, that's not Doom. Up on stage, he took the money, he ran, did it. Allegedly. There is a part of Doom, like Adult Swim, Y' all gotta check. Cool. I'm doing a whole album and there was always artistry in it. But it is funny that, like, Doom was the person who's just like, look at y' all, lame ass motherfuckers just doing anything for a check. Doom running straight to a check. Justin, am I wiling for saying that? There was always that dichotomy to do my favorite anecdote.

[Justin]

God, this is so funny. It's in the Dilla book, but about Doom always being out for the check, right? It's talking about at Dilla's funeral. This is In Dilla Time by Dan Charnas. Fantastic book. One of my favorite music books of the past five years, maybe more. And he's retelling the story about Doom at Dillas funeral. And he stands up and he goes, I had a dream last night, and I had a dream that I should record over Dilla beats. And also Dilla came to me in this dream and he told me that I should get the money from this. So it is like. And like, trust me.

[Charles Holmes]

I've.

[Justin]

I know from anecdotes that have been shared from people about just how much Doom was about the money. And, you know, he's obviously loves the craft, he's very good at it. But like, I would say in many cases, that was kind of the 1B to the 1A and the 1A being the money.

[Cole Kushna]

Can't believe you guys are disparaging Doom on this podcast.

[Charles Holmes]

We are not being real. Can you blow past worse songs? I feel like it's so disrespectful. Disrespectful. There are some of the albums that we picked where I'm just like, damn, I got to talk about.

[Cole Kushna]

I know. Well, this, at least on this one, it's. It's pretty clear. But, Justin, did I make the right call on Meat Grinder? Is that.

[Justin]

Is that a. Yeah, it's. It's one of the two. And it's. Look, there are a lot of good songs on this. Like, we like Shout Out, Fancy Clown, Shout Out, Rhinestone Cowboy, Shout Out. You're not picking it for Deep cut, but like. Right, right, right, right. I'm sorry. I Might be stepping on that. So, like, I'll.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah. Because I have a deep cut that you're not picking, which is, like, my favorite. But.

[Justin]

Yeah, no, I. Meat Grinder is a perfectly justifiable great decision, and it might have been mine as well.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, so worst song. Hardcore Hustle. Doom's not even on the song.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes. That's an easy.

[Cole Kushna]

It's easy. It feels. I don't know, it always feels a little out of place. That's the one. It's the one flaw of the album, I guess. But.

[Charles Holmes]

But also, when you're listening to this album, I'm never just like, oh, my God.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

It's an experience. So it's just like.

[Cole Kushna]

Right, right, right.

[Charles Holmes]

I feel like an asshole. But, like, yes. If you pluck this out of the record, I do think it would probably improve it a little bit.

[Cole Kushna]

You wouldn't miss it, that's for sure.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

No disrespect. Okay, so I know what you're picking.

[Charles Holmes]

For best deep cut.

[Cole Kushna]

It's one of. It's so good.

[Charles Holmes]

Can you guess which one I wanted you to pick?

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, so I'm gonna just. Let me just stay. I'm gonna pick Figaro. What?

[Charles Holmes]

Correct choice? Patty Cake. Patty Cake for fake. If he wasn't need a baker's man he'd take a. For her masters hit it once to shake her hand Want some old thank you, ma' am. And Ghoster, she can mind the toaster if she sign the poster.

[Cole Kushna]

So good.

[Charles Holmes]

Objectively correct choice.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, let me. Knowing your taste. Is it. I want to say, is it Raid? Yeah. So good this be.

[Charles Holmes]

I just need to let the bed.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, the be so good.

[Charles Holmes]

How do.

[Cole Kushna]

Again, the contrast, though, sets you up in one world.

[Charles Holmes]

That's why I love it.

[Cole Kushna]

And the beat drops and doom drops at the same time, and it's like it hits every single time.

[Charles Holmes]

Vegoro is the correct, like, objectively correct choice. But this is, to me, the deep cut album. Like, this is an album of just like, if you would have picked anything, I would just be like, yeah. Because, like, there are so many my favorite deep cuts change. I just like Raid, because that's probably one of my favorite beats off of it. Just because it's like, oh, fucking, let's go. But the rapping, I figure, like, you. Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

The rapping on Figaro is immaculate. But I love that song. Yeah, you could pick. How many deep cuts could you pick? Yeah. Rhinestone Cowboy. I love Great Day, Fancy Clown is phenomenal. I even like some of the quirky songs, like Operation Lifesaver, The Mint Test.

[Charles Holmes]

I like that one too.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

But why did you. Why did you go with Figaro?

[Cole Kushna]

It's kind of the same. Kind of the same thing with Meat Grinder. Because I think both. Both Mad Lib and Doom in terms of the beat paired with just what he's doing technically, lyrically, is just showcasing what it's just at them in top form, both of them together on one track. So Figaro is again, kind of like Meat Grinder in terms of, like. He's doing hall rhymes in terms of like. Let's just look at the opening line. The rest is empty with no brain. But the clever nerd, the best MC with no chain you ever heard. So three simultaneous rhyme schemes. The rest the best empty MC04 with no brain, with no chain, the clever nerd yet ever heard. So four simultaneous rhyme schemes in one couplet. There's 20 total words. 19 of those words rhyme. The only one that doesn't rhyme is the word. But it's just like, so sick. And it's like classic doom in terms of the rest, empty with no brain, calling competition, you know, stupid. And then calls himself the clever nerd, best MC with no chain. No chain. Setting up this idea of Figaro, the Figaro chain and so planting that right away.

[Charles Holmes]

But also the forgot about the cackleack hollaback, clack clack, blocka villainy feeling in your heart. Chakra chart topper, Stoppa. Be a smart chopper.

[Cole Kushna]

What?

[Charles Holmes]

Like, come on, no one's doing it. Like, he's so good.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. So I think my most dissectable moment is gonna be from the Figaro, Figaro thing. Cause there's some. Some, Some stuff that I didn't really realize he was doing until I did the episode on it. But let me just quickly do another quick beat breakdown because this beat is also phenomenal. So we have samples from. So Lonnie Smith in the beginning, 1966. And then another Lonnie Smith song called Janine from 1967. So that's the intro is. So he grabs just that little plucking, makes the loop out of that. Speeds it up a little bit. Just a perfect loop. And then the drums I couldn't find. I think they were just an original drum pattern that he made out of short little samples. But this was the best recreation I could find for it. I just love the. The tambourine in there. And so you pair those together just so good. Nothing crazy. And then, of course, we get the. Another contrasting intro. Setting you up. Yeah, you think it's gonna sound like. Like raid or something, right? Like, it has that more that jazz, more kind of upbeat energy. And let me just play him back to back to just. Again, Doom comes in right at the beat switch that we're not expecting. And it hits every single time.

[Charles Holmes]

The rest is empty with no brain but the cler the best. You know what it reminds me of? What were they called? Like, in the 70s, you would have, like, the variety shows. And so, like, what we're talking about, like, those intros kind of setting Doom up. And then he drops on the beat. Sometimes it reminds me of that feeling of, like, all right, we need to play some intro music so the little villain can come do his shtick. And then when the curtain clears, it's like, all right, the show has started. And that's what I love about the theatricality of this record. To your point where it's like Mad Lib is always thinking of, like, all right, how do I present basically, not a freestyle, but this, like, freestyle to the world in the most entertaining way.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. Okay. So most dissectable moment has to go to the part where he says, this is it. Make no mistake where my N word go Figaro, Figaro he says, oh's beats and my rhymes attack a scary act all black like Miss Mary Mack Wait till you see him live on the piano. Doom sing soprano like Uno Dosiano. My mama told me so what's cool about this is that he's. This is. Again, when you look at it closely, he's doing a lot more than you think. It's not just abstract. There's like. There's threads within this. He's. So in this passage alone, he's. He's. There's three motifs. Essentially. The main motif that's on the surface is presenting Mad Lib and doom as if they're performing live. That's when he says, you know, oh's beats and my rhymes attack a scary act all black like Ms. Mary Mac wait till you see him live on the piano. Doom sing soprano. So where this live act, this live duo, we're singing on stage, essentially. But then there's a thread of Italian opera. So Figaro, Figaro. The secondary meaning of. Aside from the Figaro chain that he lays out in the. In the intro. Figaro, Figaro.

[Charles Holmes]

That famous aria, Figaro, Figaro comes from.

[Cole Kushna]

An Italian opera called the Barber of Seville. And so he takes that thread and he returns to it when he says doom sing soprano, referring to himself like a soprano opera singer. And Uno Dosiano is a play on mic check 1, 2, 1, 2. Because uno doce, I think I said that right, is 1, 2. And Italian. So when he says doomsync soprano like Uno Dosiano, he's saying it's a play on mic. Czech. 1, 2, 1, 2. The third thread is a play on children's hand clapping games. So you remember earlier in the song, he says the flow maker. Fatty shake. Patty cake, Patty cake. So he returns to this hand clapping motif when he says a scary act, all black like Ms. Mary Mack. So Ms. Merry Mac being a famous hand clapping game in which they say Ms. Merry Mac all dressed in black. However, Uno Dosiano is also a nod to another hand clapping game. And I can play a little clip of it right here. So super clever. Along with mic check. 1, 2, 1, 2. And singing in Italian, he's nodding to another hand clapping game. Right after that he says, my mama told me, which is another hand clapping game. So it's like just in those, like, whatever, five, six lines, he's threading all those layers together. And it's like, you know, it's only until you look that close to see what he's doing. But it's like the details are amazing. Annie's internal rhymes and end rhymes. It's just like, this guy is brilliant.

[Charles Holmes]

Not to have another clapping game.

[Cole Kushna]

You have been dissected.

[Charles Holmes]

Come on.

[Cole Kushna]

That was an easy one. I mean, that's one.

[Charles Holmes]

But, like, I didn't. I didn't know the Una Dociano clapping game part.

[Cole Kushna]

That's a deep cut that took me a while to find because I read it wasn't on, like, Gene. I don't think it was on Genius. I must have read it in, like a. I forgot where I read it. Like maybe a forum or something. And then I found that that was the clip that I played you from an old Cosby episode. Was the only recording that I can find. But that makes sense, right? Like, I will.

[Charles Holmes]

Not only does that make sense, I just have to shout out. Also one of my favorite couple lyrics that come before this. Off Pride. Tykes talk. Why through scar me off slides. Like how war fries with Starfleet. Told you on some get rich. As he gets older, he gets colder than a witch. What? What dog. All sides. Like how Warf rides with Starfleet. Is a bar. Yeah, like it's a bar.

[Cole Kushna]

Do you catch the Lion King wordplay in the previous one, though? Off Pride. So pride of. That's what you call a pack of lions. Tykes, referring to Simba and then Scar Meat Scar. Yeah. He describes lips as Scar meat, which is just like, what.

[Charles Holmes]

Who does.

[Cole Kushna]

Who does that?

[Charles Holmes]

I'm so glad you picked this.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Hell yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. Best moment.

[Charles Holmes]

All right. Yeah, best moment. I'm really, really interested in this.

[Cole Kushna]

Maybe Jessica can help me out. I just went with the reinvention of Doom's metal mask because you can. Obviously he was playing with the idea of the mask with Doomsday wearing plastic masks, wrestling masks that he got at toy stores.

[Charles Holmes]

But I think the first one he had was the Darth Maul from Phantom Met. Like, he had a Darth Maul Phantom.

[Cole Kushna]

Menace mask that he spray painted black or silver?

[Charles Holmes]

Silver, yeah. It looked terrible. Like, fucking terrible. You can look like. You can look up some of these. Not great. And the first metal. The first couple metal masks weren't the gladiator type shit that we got so.

[Cole Kushna]

Mad Villainy, I believe, is the. The COVID and the. All the photos that they took at the Bomb Shelter are, I believe, the premiere of the Metal Mask. So. And you can see, like an early rendition of it in those pictures. We'll. We'll show it on the screen here. But you can see, like, the white. I think they took it like a construction helmet that, you know, that can swivel up and down. They took the swivel thing so that he could put the mask up and down, but you can actually see the white swivel guard or whatever it is. Like, you can see that where in later versions you can't. So I'm just going with that. I don't know if Justin. Did I miss another moment? The leak, maybe. I don't know. That was hard.

[Justin]

Yeah. The leak was a moment. I mean, I'm not as up on the mask lore as a lot of people. I listen to music. I don't really pay attention to the. To that. No. But I, like, I don't even know if I clock that in real time. Like, I'm like, obviously I recognize that this looks cooler on the COVID but I didn't, like, it wasn't like, oh, my God, look at the mask.

[Cole Kushna]

Right.

[Justin]

So I don't know, man. I think it's kind of hard to build a. Build the biggest moment around this one. So.

[Cole Kushna]

I think so.

[Charles Holmes]

Well, it's. It's similar to what we were talking about with Discovery, like, and that you already brought up where it's like, as much as this project in this album is now considered, I would say, for most people, probably like a top 10 rap record.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Of all time. It was not that in the moment. And because it was such A slow build. It wasn't like, oh, yeah. It was like, no. Like, yeah. It took a while for the normies to get to get to this record.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, y'.

[Cole Kushna]

All.

[Charles Holmes]

Not only have I been dissected, but the hero has turned me into a mad villain. Because after this commercial break, I'm coming back to talk to you about one of the other greatest rap albums to be released in the 21st century. That is hell hath no fury by Clips. Discover Ralph's Club, New York. The new fragrance by Ralph Lauren. With blackcurrant vanilla and sandalwood, this scent embodies the sensuality and confidence of Usher. Like the city that never sleeps, this masculine Fragrance lasts for 12 hours. Ralph's Club New York, Ralph Lauren. Shop now@macy's.com.

[Cole Kushna]

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[Charles Holmes]

Discover Ralph's club, New York. The new fragrance by Ralph Lauren. With black currant, vanilla, and sandalwood, this scent embodies the sensuality and confidence of Usher. Like the city that never sleeps, this masculine Fragrance lasts for 12 hours. Ralph's Club New York, Ralph Lauren shop now@macy's.com.

[Cole Kushna]

All right, we are back, Charles. It is time for you to make the case for a very good album. Does it stand a chance against mad villainy? I'm not sure.

[Charles Holmes]

Don't do. All right. Don't do that. Don't do that because you're adding a little sauce. Because I was talking some shit off mic.

[Cole Kushna]

Hello. Why hell hath no fury over lord willing? Because I know we were really debating this behind the scenes.

[Charles Holmes]

My personal pick was lord willing. That's the album that I like more. I will talk about this later. I don't want to step on my manifesto.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

But I have a manifesto.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

I think that this is the crystallization of a moment for the clips, for Neptunes, for culture. And it was like, yes. Grinding. I would have loved to talk about grinding. That's also for talking about if there was any songs that could have, like, gone at, like, doom in the best song category. I think grinding was one of them. But in terms of influence, in terms of a moment, in terms of just like a fulcrum with which all of hip hop has been orbiting for. For almost 20 years at this point, it's health Ethno Fury. Now I will start with a little bit of album facts about it before. Before we go into the quiz around clip. Sophomore album was released on November 28, 2006. The 12 song project features Pharrell, some thug Abliva and re Up Gang with production handled by the Neptunes. The album produced two singles, Mr. Me Too and Whamp Whamp. Hell Hath no Fury debuted at number 14 on the Billboard 200. And I was surprised at this. This was not a lot at the time, but they sold 80k in the first week, which is. I was like, oh, like. Like, that's pretty solid for a group like Clips.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

And at the time, Hell Hath no Fury was one of the most critically acclaimed albums of the 2000s. It got a perfect score by Double XL, Observer Music Monthly, All Music, the Guardian, Pitchfork gave it a 9.1. Rolling Stone gave it a 4 out of 5. I remember when Hell had no Fury dropped and the critical just raves that it received. So, yes, this is. This is a very celebrated album. If you were not around at this time, this was. This was a moment.

[Cole Kushna]

I remember it. And because I lived with my. Two of my buddies, moved out and got this apartment together, and one of them was a huge Pharrell fan. And we got this. He got this album the day it dropped. And the Mr. Me Too song, we'd always recite the line sign my first skater because we were skateboard kids, like, and he was talking about Terry Kennedy. Wait, did I just burn an album? Trivia question. Oops.

[Charles Holmes]

That's a point for me. That's the point of the board. Technically, that is the point of the board. I want three questions. I want. I want a chance for. To get three points.

[Cole Kushna]

But that was.

[Charles Holmes]

That was.

[Cole Kushna]

That was. I mean, that was not just Clips, but just Pharrell and the Neptune's, like, them incorporating skateboarding into their whole image.

[Charles Holmes]

Like, don't step on my boat.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. But that was like. That was a big deal for me as a. I was hardcore skater for like 15 years. And like, when we saw ourselves kind of represented, quote unquote, when skateboarding kind of became cool. And Pharrell had a big, big part of that. Like, that was a big deal for us.

[Charles Holmes]

I was. I was there. Do you understand these skateboards? How much I want I tried and I was like, I. It was like, this is. This ain't for me. But people don't understand Bay putty, BBC ice creams. Like, I like. I remember, like, have like seeing the ice cream shoes for the first time in person and like, being to like my parents. I'm like, I need this. They're just like, how much is it? No.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

And they were looking. They're just like, this is the ugliest. Like, actually the ice cream shoes are pretty ugly when you look at them now. But I remember just bape. I was like, I need a bay putty and I would, like, be online. Like, I'm like, how much is it if you don't take your ass to old fucking Navy?

[Cole Kushna]

Shit.

[Charles Holmes]

Did you have any bape, BBC or ice cream?

[Cole Kushna]

I wanted ice cream because of the skateboard tie, but it was just not my style at the time. I don't think I could have pulled it off. I like the all over print. You could have pulled it off maybe. I don't know.

[Charles Holmes]

I will say where even as a kid, I was just like, this looks cool in magazine spreads, but looks terrible in person. Was the all zipper. That shit looked terrible. Yo, Justin, I know you had some bait.

[Justin]

No, no, I had zero babe.

[Charles Holmes]

Are you sure?

[Justin]

I am positive. I had zero babe. No, I. Look, most of the people that I hung around with were more into doom than they were into clips at the time. I was the one screaming about this record. I was the one beating my. Beating the table saying that this is one of the best rap records that has come around in a long time. And they weren't listening to me.

[Cole Kushna]

Was there a division in that way back then? I like, were they were clips accepted by the like, quote unquote backpackers?

[Justin]

Not fully, no. I think it was a little different for me because I was a DJ where a lot of people hung out with were just like producers and rappers and they were like, you know, the heads. They were like the real hip hop, yo. You know, and clips wasn't quite. Didn't quite appeal to them. I think like the Neptunes of it all. Even though if some of. And I won't step on anything, but even if, like some of the more inventive production that the Neptunes have ever done, that anybody's ever really done in rap music is happening on really both of those first two clips records that didn't matter to them. It was just, you know, I think the feeling was grinding was cool. These guys are pretty good at rapping. When's the Last time, that was just like a straight up pop song. When's the last time is dope. But, like, they did not have that kind of love from the people who consider themselves, quote unquote, real hip hop heads. And that's why, like, you know, we're going to get into it. You're going to talk about, like, the hipster shit with this record. Charles, I assume, but Pitchfork really, like, planting their flag for stuff like this and for Camron and Dipset really kind of changed the conversation around those acts.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, are we ready for some.

[Cole Kushna]

Some album trivia?

[Charles Holmes]

Some album trivia.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, I did step on my third question.

[Charles Holmes]

Wow. So I only get two at bats Audience, Should I get a half point?

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, you know what? I think I can come up with a third one on the fly. Let's go with the first two. Question number one, Pusha T said that Mr. Me Too was originally tended for another artist. This artist didn't show up to the studio, so Push called Pharrell and told him Clipse was stealing the song. Who is the artist that the song was originally intended for?

[Charles Holmes]

I don't know this. I know who most of the beats on this album were for, though. Most of the beats on this album for were Jay Were for Jay Z because he was recording kingdom come at the time.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Was Mr. Me Too or was this a different artist?

[Cole Kushna]

Different artist.

[Charles Holmes]

Fuck. Who's the artist?

[Cole Kushna]

For a half point reduction, I'll give you a hint. Do you want a hint?

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

The artist is mentioned on the song Mr. Me Too.

[Charles Holmes]

Fuck. I'm blanking now on the lyrics. The only thing I remember is Gilly the kid is featured in the fucking. Is featured in the video. Who was it?

[Cole Kushna]

Puff Daddy? Yeeks. Pusha was actually assigned to write the song for Puff, but Puff didn't show up to the studio and then stole the song.

[Charles Holmes]

Diddy would have sounded terrible.

[Cole Kushna]

But it makes sense now, though, because when you hear the line, just last week I was out in Aspen, me and Puff hopping on the plane, both of us laughing, is what Pharrell raps in the opening verse.

[Charles Holmes]

I will say the reason why I forgot that they mentioned Puff on this is because, like, I. As I was prepping for this and I kept listening to it, I had to black out. I was just like, oh, I'm not talking about Diddy on this episode. And all of the monstrous things he is accused of. Like, I. But. But to be fair, there is a lot of Puff Daddy references throughout Pusha T's career where I'm Just like, I just. Let me forget about this. Good question, though.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, question number two. The beat for Whamp. Wham. What it do was originally given to another artist, but this artist lost their hearing, so the beat was passed to the clips. However, when the artist hearing return, Jay Z asked for the beat back. That's a little hint. But clips had already recorded the song. They didn't give the beat back. Who was the artist that lost their hearing that this originally was Jay Z's?

[Charles Holmes]

And hint, was it another rapper.

[Cole Kushna]

Perhaps.

[Charles Holmes]

Wild swing, Beyonce?

[Cole Kushna]

Foxy Brown.

[Charles Holmes]

Foxy Brown. These are hard. These are very difficult questions. No, they're.

[Cole Kushna]

They're out there. Here's a quote from Pusha. He said, quote, Jay Z supposedly, because this was a little bit of a controversy. There's this Hip Hop DX article is what I found on it writing about. Specifically about the controversy of this beat. Because it kind of. I think it got out that it was supposed to be for Foxy Brown via Jay Z. So Pusha said to hip hop dx, Jay Z supposedly came. Came like, oh, she's back. Let's get the beat back. That's where all the discrepancy came from. With us, it's no controversy. We follow the same protocol we would with any beat. We hear it, we like it, we get it from Purell. We didn't go buy. Got behind anyone's back to get it. And then malice adds. So, so malice. He says the best thing that came out of all of this was that she got her hearing back. Just so sweet. Like, such a good guy behind the. The hard Persona. Okay, question number three was gonna be this. Let's see if you actually remember the guy on Mr. Me Too. Pharrell has the line ice cream sneakers. I signed my first skater. What skater was he referring to?

[Charles Holmes]

Well, you already said Terry Kennedy. He was the black. He was the black skater at the time who would go on to launch Dirty ghetto Kids, right?

[Cole Kushna]

No, that was Stevie Williams, DGK. Terry Kearney skated for Baker 3 at the time. Or Baker.

[Charles Holmes]

Wait, was he running around with, like, deer decking them or. No, that's the other black guy. Am I getting black skin?

[Cole Kushna]

You are.

[Charles Holmes]

I'm getting a lot of black skaters confused. There's not that many of them, but. My bad.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. So Terry Kennedy. I don't know. Do you get a hat? Do you get a point for that? I don't have a third question for you.

[Justin]

Wow.

[Charles Holmes]

I get no points.

[Cole Kushna]

So I'm. So technically, I'm in the lead now.

[Charles Holmes]

Oh, Compton asked Terry. Yes. Yes. Compton asked Terry. I remember him. Wait, let me see. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Kennedy appeared on Bam Margera's Viva la Bam and Rob Dyrdek's. Rob Dyrdek's Fantasy Factory.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, he did. Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

I remember this. He also made a camp. Yes. He makes a cameo and drop it like a Todd.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, he does.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

Wow. Wow. See, I knew I remembered. Anyway, I should get a half point.

[Cole Kushna]

I'll give you half.

[Charles Holmes]

Stepped on my third one.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, I'll. I'll give. I'll give you a half point.

[Charles Holmes]

Hell, yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

I'm in the lead by half point. Oh, it's getting close to the finale.

[Charles Holmes]

Come on, you. I know you got. I'm going to stump you next. Next episode, but are we ready? Are you. Are we ready to get into.

[Cole Kushna]

I'm very curious where you're going. The first one's kind of obvious, but let's get into the categories, starting with biggest song before we get into that.

[Charles Holmes]

Or just like the floor for a moment.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

Mad Mad Villainy. An album that I love. One of my favorite albums of all time. I listen to it every single year. But we have to talk about the importance of clips. This episode is not just about the Thornton brothers. It is about a time in music history that is still reverberating today. It is about fashion. It is about beats. It's about the ecstasy of cocaine and the fall of hubris. As you have seen throughout this season. Don't laugh, Cole.

[Cole Kushna]

Don't laugh.

[Charles Holmes]

As you've seen in this season of Last Song Standing, a lot of times we tend to lean on history and the type of people who write that history. And we go for the conventional albums, you know, but it's people like the clips, artists like the clips who have to get it out of the mud, who we don't respect because they. They rap about drugs and how great it is to sell them and how great it is to make money and all of this other. But what we don't appreciate about the clips is the lyrical dexterity, the history and the emotion hidden under those layers and how cool these were. I would argue the clips were so cool in this moment that they are the most influential artists of the 21st century. Whoa. And I will prove that throughout these categories, they are influential to Wayne, Drake, Kanye, and all good music. Tyler, the creator. Would you. Would you say that those are some of the biggest. I'm not just talking about fashion. I'm talking about lyrically. I'm talking about how we rap, pusha T's fucking pen has penned some of the biggest. They did the fucking McDonald's jingle. We will. Don't worry. I'm gonna get into with that. We have to get into the biggest song. And all I have to say, these are the days of our lives. And I'm sorry to the fans, but them crackers weren't playing fair at jive. That's right. The biggest song is Mr. Me Too, featuring Pharrell. Come on with it. Star Trek is haters. I'm doing deals like the majors. Ice cream sneakers. I signed my first skater so you could pay three and buy yourself some Babesters. Bulletproof on the T shirts because they hate us. First word. We have to go with this. The history. Okay, now the myth of this album, the reason why I think outside of just how good good the music was, but the fervor was at this time pushing malice, riding off the momentum of grinding, right? They're like, we want to do our sophomore record. So they start their follow up recording in 2003. Unfortunately, very quickly, the record label Arista gets dissolved, which moves them to Jive. Meanwhile, Star Trek Entertainment, the home founding of the Neptunes, where a lot of that music comes from, they move from Arista to Interscope. Clips eventually has to sue Jive to get out of their deal. Which brings us to 2006. So Lord Willing drops in 2002.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

They're already like, hey, by 2003, 2004, we're recording. We're ready. We're ready. My biggest moment, we'll talk about what they're doing as they're in their label dramas. But the reason I bring that up is because Mr. Me Too is a statement of purpose of y' all got us fucked up. The industry does not want us to succeed. And the kernel of where this song starts is from the beef with Lil Wayne in a complex interview from 2006. I don't see no fucking clips. Come on, man. Wheezy, man. They had to do a song with us to get hot, B. What happened to that boy? Who the fuck is Pharrell? Do you really respect him? That nigga wore bapes and y' all thought he was weird. I wore it. Y' all thought it was hot. Come on. The nigga walked around with niggas that look like you. Y' all thought he was crazy. If I did it, y' all gonna think these niggas are killers. So I'm.

[Cole Kushna]

What year is that it? Do you have the year on that quote?

[Charles Holmes]

This complex interview? I think it was after the. It was 2006.

[Cole Kushna]

After the magazine cover. Right. Because it. Isn't that what prompted. They asked him about.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

Why, like, the babe controversy and all?

[Charles Holmes]

Yes, because also at this time, Wayne is wearing a bunch of baby. Like. Like one of the times I remember it vividly is the Hustler music video. And to your point, the complex cover that he was on was.

[Cole Kushna]

I think it was Vibe. I think it's.

[Charles Holmes]

It was. Yeah, it was Vibe. And then he does the follow up in Complex. Yeah. And this, to me, is why Mr. Me Too is one of the most consequential records that dropped in the 21st century. Because essentially, Mr. Me Too is Pharrell and clips being like, hey, yo, y' all, Stall all stole all of this from us. Why were they beefing? Allegedly. Now, this is allegedly. Ebro from Hot 97 claimed that this all goes back to the Neptunes working with Birdman for what happened to that boy, which also features the clips. And if we know anything about Birdman and Cash Money, they are known for not paying artists. Allegedly.

[Cole Kushna]

Allegedly.

[Charles Holmes]

Allegedly. At this point, I think Pusha T, Malice, and Pharrell had enough, I would.

[Cole Kushna]

Argue, just to make it clear that allegedly they didn't. Birdman didn't pay Pharrell for the beat.

[Charles Holmes]

Or didn't pay Pharrell for the beat. And then once Lil Wayne starts coming out in, like, bape and BBC and all this shit, I think Ebro had also said that Wayne had reached out to Pharrell for some, like, BBC and like, a hookup in that way. And for. I was like, fuck y'. All. Y' all ain't pay me. And what's so funny about this is you have to remember, like, to us right now, I think we're all like, this all started over who was wearing bape, right? And to me, that's actually not what this is about. If I'm Pusha T at this moment. I remember when Lil Wayne was coming up and Lil Wayne was a hot boy. He was running around. But this was when cash money was dissolving. And almost overnight, Lil Wayne almost refashions himself as this, like, dope boy. Carter 2 Carter, like, you're getting the way he's starting to rap. Allegedly. Gilly the Kid, Philadelphia rapper, has a popular podcast now, wrote a lot of those raps for him, allegedly. But I think if you're Pusha T, you're like, okay, wait, so y' all don't pay my man. Y' all don't pay the Neptunes for this beat? We Collaborated with you on what happened to that boy. Now Lil Wayne is running around calling himself the best rapper alive, essentially copying what me and my brother have already done. This is too much, right? We gotta blow this shit up. Am I being too harsh on Wayne potentially cribbing from Pusha T js?

[Justin]

So after that, we get, like, the Jules Santana mixtapes with Wayne, and that kind of feels like. I always thought that was, like, kind of a weird move after that, but it kind of. I see where you're going. I see where you're going with this.

[Charles Holmes]

I can. Here's the thing. I'm a Wayne fan. I, like. Wayne is one of my favorite rappers. I can understand why the three of them were like, we gotta put a stop to this now, to the music. Starts off with that classic Pharrell four count.

[Cole Kushna]

So sick.

[Charles Holmes]

This beat, to me, it. We're gonna take it for granted if you've never listened to this before. When it dropped, it blew my wig off. I thought this was one of the best beats I had ever.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Wait, can we play a little bit?

[Cole Kushna]

Are y'.

[Charles Holmes]

All. Can you play me a little bit of, like, just the beginning and a little bit of Pharrell rapping? Star Trek is haters. I'm doing deals like the majors. Ice cream sneakers. I signed my first skater so you could pay three and buy yourself some Batesters Bulletproof on the T shirts because they hate us.

[Cole Kushna]

It's like, it's. I remember you telling the story, like her hearing Kanye's beat for the first time. I remember hearing a Timbaland beat for the first time. And he's sampling the little baby. And I've never heard anything like this. And like, this was. I remember when this dropped, specifically this song. And just, like, it was another one of those. My ears perked. I'm just like.

[Charles Holmes]

Tyler has a very funny quote where he says, life for me is before and after. I've seen this video. In 06, nothing compares. When I heard it, I told myself this would be the first song I play in every car I get. And I haven't broken that. Mr. Me, too. What is so interesting about this for me is that what you have to realize about the Neptunes is that at this point, they have ascended 90% of the fucking radio in the Billboard charts. Are the fucking Neptunes and the beasts that they're making for. These other artists are weird. They are a lot. They're super poppy. They are. The Neptunes are one of the greatest producing duos for. For a reason. But to me, clips Unlock something in them. Where the beats on Hell Hath no Fury not only sound like the future, but they're almost cartoonish in a way.

[Cole Kushna]

Yep.

[Charles Holmes]

Where it's like Pusha T has described himself. He likes to rap like he's like a super villain from. Like, he's like a villain from a horror movie.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

But the beats on this, when I was going back to, I was just.

[Cole Kushna]

Like, it's the same as Doom. The Doom conversation and the Eminem conversation. There's the. That's what makes them so interesting because you. We can imagine this clip sound. The clips have a sound, right?

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

And it's not the sound that you would expect from two guys rapping like that. And I think that if they're rapping over more traditional beats, there's no way we are heralding. We're not talking about them in this episode today. Because it's. Again, it's that dichotomy. It's like there is a quirkiness to the beats, but they're quirky in a way that they're still cool. Like, I hear this beat, I'm like, this is just like the coolest thing I've ever heard. This is what. This is the soundtrack to the bape hoodie. This is part of the reason why the bape hoodie is so cool, because you're pairing it with this music.

[Charles Holmes]

And what I think is so interesting about this beat is that it's so funny that Jay Z's making Kingdom Come around this time. Because to me, the reason why the Neptunes work so well with clips is that Push A T and Malice can hear something in these beats a lot of times that the other artists can't. Where it's like they have a famous story of, like, the label laughed at them when they first heard Grinded for the first time. They're just like, what the fuck is this? Because when you just hear the beat for grinding without knowing what would come.

[Cole Kushna]

Archaic. Like, yeah, there's not much going on. Super minimal. And it's like, where's the melody for Mr. Me Too?

[Charles Holmes]

Like, it sounds cool, but I could see Jay being like, like, how am I?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, how weird.

[Charles Holmes]

What's the pocket? How do I like what?

[Cole Kushna]

It's an underrated thing about clips, and specifically Pusha T, because he continued it with his solo career, his beat selection is just like one. He's pulling from the best producers, of course. But even within, he's picking beats that I feel like no one else would pick because they are the more abstract ones. And he finds a way to get on all these interesting beats, and he's done it his entire career.

[Charles Holmes]

And what I. And of course, out of this, you get the clips, Lil Wayne beef, then Pusha T takes the beef further with Drake and then Kendrick.

[Cole Kushna]

It all can come back to that vibe.

[Charles Holmes]

It all comes back to Mr. Me Too in this moment. But what I actually think is so interesting about Mr. Me Too, and what makes it such an important song to the 21st century is that what the three of them are saying, essentially, and what Pusha T especially has been hammering home throughout this entire since this has happened is, hey, yo, we're the source of so much of this shit. And I hate when Wayne, I hate when Drake, I hate when any other person tries to take this shit, take it for credit, like we weren't here. And it's like when they were talking about this record, it was interesting. Pushing Mouse were like us, the Neptunes. We realized that this wasn't going to be a commercial breakthrough moment. We realized that this wasn't going to say, sell gangbusters. And to me, that gives them the freedom to be super fucking weird. It gives them the freedom to be like, hey, we're going to give you these raps, but also we are going to pick the most space age Jetson beats to rap over. And we're going to prove that, like, we are the only group that can get 100% out of Pharrell in the net. And before I get to best song, I will just say this is my favorite. My favorite line from all of this was the malice part where he goes, want to know the time? Better clock us about the style from the shoes to the watch as we cloud hoppers tailor suits like we mobsters break down keys into dobs, sell them like God stoppers. Whoa.

[Cole Kushna]

What my favorite line actually is. Right after that, he says, who gonna stop us? Not a goddamn one of you mean with the Ria. We street tumblers. That line is like. They have these lines that just like we street tumblers is three words. But what it implies is like a rock tumbler. A rock tumbler turns rocks into gems. Their street tumblers turning dime bags, the gobstoppers into jewelry. Like it's the per. It's just like the economy of words. And it's just they have those little moments where it's just like they sum up everything about them in these just like one bar. Like, they have just these perfect bars. And that's, to me, that's one of them.

[Charles Holmes]

But the whole thing is it's a phenomenal. I like, it's so funny because, like, you're a little bit older than me, but I'm so glad that both of us can remember, like, Mr. Me Too. And trying to, like, describe to an audience, like, no. When this first dropped. Dropped. When I saw the video for the first time, me and all my friends were just like, dog, I want to be down with them. Like, I remember my mom just being like, oh, if I can. And to me also, we kind of talked about the fashion, but, like, it's hard to describe. Like, this is before Instagram.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

This is before Twitter. Facebook, TikTok. It did feel like a moment where I was like, I. I remember Mr. B2 dropping and then every kid in the suburbs trying to look like this. Like, you go back, ask any of her friends who are around that time or in their 30s, 40s, like, what happened after this video. Some of the worst. Avisu Jeans, lrg, Baby C Nasty. Like, that shit looks terrible.

[Cole Kushna]

Well, the thing too, like, the skateboarding element is to. Is perfect with this point, because skateboarding traditionally didn't. The connection to hip hop wasn't always there. I mean, it wasn't some else. Some. You'd get hip hop, some hip hop songs in skate videos and stuff. But it wasn't. At least in my mind, it wasn't until Pharrell that you really got these worlds coming together in a way that just never. Because finally, skateboarders were seen as cool. To. Yeah. Not the rock, because traditionally, skateboarders were kind of punks. You'd associate them with punk rock music or grunge music, but I feel like this was the time where things started to converge and really opened up skateboarding to a whole different kind of demographic.

[Charles Holmes]

What's also interesting, I just looked it up because, like, in my mind, I was like, oh, these. These two records release very, very close together. So. Lupe Fiasco's kick push releases April 18, 2006. Mr. Me Too releases May 23, 2006. So it is just kind of this beautier point where it's like, up until this point, punk, the anarch experience of that grasped very, very well onto skateboarding. But once Mr. Me Too and Kick Push, this is a tie. Like, all especially black kids. Like, the amount of black kids I saw pick up a skateboard because they finally could connect to it. They're like this.

[Cole Kushna]

And Tony Hawks pro skater video game coming out at the same time. Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

It's like, yeah, all right, so best song. I'm gonna do a little Bit of a swerve.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. Don't fucking pick what I think you're gonna pick.

[Charles Holmes]

I actually, originally, I'm gonna say this. I'm not gonna pick it. A lot of people like you would have been crazy if you picked this wamp wamp and the beat for Whamp whamp. I don't give a fuck with like what Cole says. Whamp whimp is one of the best. Neptune beats no hotter flow dropper sis papa, you Penny, any nick legacy I know Copper left the game on a high no flow opera Pusha still got them keys I can unlock ya see that watch on the sleeve Call it showstopper this beat is insane like Justin, can you back me up that whamp whamp is a fucking record.

[Justin]

Didn't I just text you this morning? Literally, Whamp whamp. Jesus fucking Christ.

[Charles Holmes]

The beat says Slim Thug on this shit. You don't like. What do you don't like about Wampus? Him.

[Cole Kushna]

I. The beat's so sick.

[Charles Holmes]

I don't to the ball, the post up. Wham wham. What he do? What he do?

[Cole Kushna]

I don't. It's. It's good. Actually. I. I was just giving you kind of.

[Charles Holmes]

Y' all weren't. You weren't outside. Cole. Wham Wham. What? I remember watching MTV2 just to like. Just to hear wh. Wham. But I'm not picking it.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. Okay, so what are you picking instead? I'm actually.

[Charles Holmes]

This is now narratively, I wanted. Because a couple of the other songs that I'm gonna pick, I could get it to, like, my fave favorites.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

But the best song in terms of just, like, unlocking, I think, some of the deeper layers of this. Cause I think if you just listen to this album surface level, you're just like, oh, this is coke raps. This is just like them stunting or whatever. But to me, Mama, I'm so sorry.

[Cole Kushna]

Yep.

[Charles Holmes]

Narratively connects. Hell hath no fury to Lord willing. Yeah, skip to my loo if you looking for a couple roosters in the duffel Keep the hood screaming cock a doodle do coke by the ton rap niggas I'm the one with basic rhyme pattern. How the fuck you trying to chat to ASIC ass rappers got em run. What is interesting to me about Mama, I'm sorry is it's like the Godfather too. It is like them being like, oh, we don't have to tell you the origin. The origin of clips anymore. We are telling you what happens when we we become the rappers when we have grinded, when we have the money. And it's so funny. There was Malice said at one point. Yeah. People. People always ask me, yeah, Malice. Was it. Was it not. All it was cracked up to be was rap. Was the rap world not fun? He's like, whoa, whoa, don't hold up. It was fun. All of this was fun. But even in a song like this, where they're stunting, you're starting to get glimpses.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Of especially Malice being like. There's a. There's lines where he's like. But it's a bigger picture, Holmes. Trust. I didn't seen it. From Frankfurt to Cologne, Oslo to Sweden, from Italy's Milan to the shores of Nepali, now I consider Ferrari and Salvador Dali's. I'm no longer local. My thoughts are global. That's why I seem distant, son. Expand your vision. What I love about that is he's stunting. He's just like, yo, I'm not in Virginia anymore. I've traveled all over the globe. I've gone to Europe, I've gone to all of these. These places. But he's still locating something that even in the stunting, he's just like. Even in the obnoxiousness of this, something's not right. Something's not okay. I left my family, and it wasn't all it was cracked up to be. There's a reason why I'm distant. And that's why I wanted to pick this, because I'm like. You could hear this song just be like, oh, they just rapping. They just stunting. But there's like. There's little kernels of, like, something is not right.

[Cole Kushna]

Well, even the fourth. The fourth verse, Malice is like, pretty transparent. And everything you're saying, he's, I'm sorry, grandma, for the mistakes I made when I aired Family Business. How you put me in my place. Even my baby mama. I can't look you in the face because I can't do enough. You have a symbol of God's grace. It's like, you know, that's. That's that to me, foreshadows, like, even let God sort him out.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

And songs like Birds Don't, Don't Cry or some of the more emotional songs on the album. And yeah, there is peeking through all this entire album is Malice. You get these one or two lines where you're just like, oh. Then in retrospect, I see you can start to see the splintering.

[Charles Holmes]

And it's like when you have to think when they're traveling when they're seeing the world where they're connecting with fans, a lot of their friends are getting locked up. There's like there's a lot of you can go do reporting on like the people in the kind of like the clips or them all getting arrested. And to your point like that last versus a perfect example as well where it's like. Like I don't think that it is. I think it was actually planned on their part in terms of the track listing where Mama I'm so Sorry tracks on to Young Boy so well in terms of just like narratively where they're at. So I just wanted to add like a best song be like, no, this is kind of why I love them. But also I have to shout out my favorite Pusha T list.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

With basic Ron patters. How the fuck you trying to chatter? Asic ass rappers got them running for their life I philosophize about clocks of keys Niggas call me young black Socrates West Indies bitch dropped in these quick what so good dog Asic ass rappers got them running for they like yo, yo. What? Stop. Stop.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Was there any other songs to you that that potentially could have been in? Because I the songs that to me whamp whamp. I was just like that's too Charles B. I love the singles.

[Cole Kushna]

Well I like. I mean I like the the contrast between the two picks.

[Charles Holmes]

So I love here this isn't.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Actually you know what? I'm not. I'm not gonna step on my own stuff. I will tell you about what ones were in for best deep cut.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

Worst song. This is interesting because I don't think that there are any bad songs on this record.

[Cole Kushna]

I shared my worst song with Justin pre taping and he thought I was crazy.

[Justin]

I lost my mind when I thought.

[Charles Holmes]

I was it Chinese New Year.

[Cole Kushna]

No. I love that song.

[Charles Holmes]

Trill.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. Oh no. Yeah, Trill. I Trill is my. Trill is my worst song.

[Charles Holmes]

I Justin likes Trill. I don't fuck with Trill, but it's not a bad song.

[Cole Kushna]

I would agree with that.

[Charles Holmes]

This. There's no bad songs in it. The song I picked is because I think it is of a time when rappers thought that they needed a girl record.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh God.

[Charles Holmes]

Dirty money, dirty money on my fly Bitches lie Dirty money, dirty money on my stripper Bitches lie Now let's go shopping let's go chill let's go buy the new Louboutin hills Ass in LA Pearl Ears full of pearls Damn Dirty money In a record that is so unapologetic about what they're doing, which is like, these are supreme beats from Pharrell and Neptunes. These are supreme coke rap steps. We're not giving you none of the fluff. I'm not saying dirty money is fluff.

[Cole Kushna]

I know what you mean.

[Charles Holmes]

But it gets there.

[Cole Kushna]

It's. Yeah. And it's just. It is the obligatory, like, girl song, which, in their own way, I can see how they're trying to flip the cliche of it in terms of, like.

[Charles Holmes]

But what's funny to me is I'm like. As Pusha T especially gets farther into his solo career, completely abandons it. Like, he doesn't do shit like this. Where it's like. Like, I would say the two knocks against Lord Willen and. And Hellhound Fury. There are records of a time where you're like. You can point to at least one or two records on the album.

[Cole Kushna]

Be like, oh, you're reaching for something there.

[Charles Holmes]

You are reaching for something. But also, we have to be real. Clips was working with Justin Timberlake. They were writing the McDonald's jingle. They are ghost writing for a bunch of people. The thing that, like, I will keep stressing why this album is so important is that. Have you ever seen I Got it? I got in trouble at. When I was working at MTV News for this. Have you ever seen the Drake? I think it was like, some type of show when. Like, when I was 16 or some type of shit where he tells this story. Maybe we could find the video where I posted this on Twitter, because I remember seeing it where Drake was such a big Clips fan. He bought a mic off ebay that was supposedly signed by Pusha T and Malice. And I remember I, like, threw it up on Twitter in the middle of Pusha T. J's beef, and I got in trouble. People like, where'd you find that, Charles? Did you go in the archives? I was like, no, this is like, you can find this. You can find this online. Like, this is. These are very real thing that I remember. Drake, like, Drake was inspired by Pusha T. A lot of people like, what are you talking about? There's nothing. And I was like, no, he.

[Cole Kushna]

I think. I don't know the exact quote, but he was like, very. In the beginning, like, he was like, those are the guys, like, super. He was like, those are the. The cream of the crop.

[Charles Holmes]

To me, there was a reason Kanye, like, why do you think Pusha T signed to Good Meat? Like, Kanye was like, pusha T. He's My guy a lot. Like, we've seen a lot of the Pusha T reference tracks leak from Kanye. If you want to know who's behind a lot of them lyrics, like, it's not hard to find.

[Justin]

The other thing, though, is Drake and Kanye are really fucking dorky guys, and Pusha T is the kind of guy who's so cool that you can just feel cool just by, like, being in proximity to. And I think that was a big thing for both of them. Like, even Drake, like, just as much as the rapping. I think he was just inspired by, like, he just wanted to be that cool. And you just. If you want that, you can't be right. You can never be as cool.

[Charles Holmes]

So it's Dirty Money is the one where I'm just, like, acceptable. Deep cut.

[Cole Kushna]

Not a bad song, though.

[Charles Holmes]

Though. Deep cut. Do you know where I'm going with this?

[Cole Kushna]

To me, there's one choice, but I don't think you're going to tell me.

[Charles Holmes]

What your choice is.

[Cole Kushna]

Ride around shining what?

[Charles Holmes]

Listen to this beat, dude, I love this beat.

[Cole Kushna]

So good.

[Charles Holmes]

For like a Chuck wagon cut.

[Cole Kushna]

The beat alone. I know the beat is good. The hook, the hook. Maybe not their strongest hook, but like, that.

[Charles Holmes]

I couldn't pick this one, but it was in the running. I love hello, New world Look out, world I listen to the beat and the rhyme is roll see, I was 16 eyes full of hope Bagging up grams at the higher do the news called it crack I called it Diet Coke at the same time hiding from mama Dodging the drama plenty While ducking a baby mama hello, New world Low key, Very, very. Just a phenomenal record.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. No, Okay. I know where you're going now.

[Charles Holmes]

Okay, I. I didn't pick this, but I want to give an ISO to Justin really quick. One of his favorite songs of all time. Any single time I bring up the clips, he's always like, Chinese, new gear. Chinese New Year.

[Justin]

I. I said this to Cole earlier. Earlier. Jesus, I'm from Providence. I said that earlier. I said this to Cole. Whenever Chinese New Year comes on, it does funny things to my brain. Like, that beat just rewires my brain chemistry.

[Charles Holmes]

It's a phenomenal beat. The rapping on it, though.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. So good.

[Charles Holmes]

They snap on this.

[Justin]

Absolutely. Oh, my God.

[Cole Kushna]

But this, this.

[Charles Holmes]

So where I'm going.

[Cole Kushna]

I know where you're going is. It's a great pick.

[Charles Holmes]

Is one of the greatest verses I've ever heard. Keys open doors Keys open doors Keys open doors Keys, keys open doors Here. Make your skin crawl Press One button, let the wind fall who gonna stop us? The coppers? The mind of a kilo shopper Seeing my life through the windshields of choppers I ain't spent one rap dollar. Holla.

[Cole Kushna]

In three years hollow two, like, what. Who puts those sounds together? Every. Every beat, you're just like. Okay. There's, like.

[Charles Holmes]

Sometimes it sounds like, like, on multiple, right? Like, is that a kazoo? What's that synth? And you're just like. What's interesting about it? We keep using the word sparse. Is that because the beats are so wonky? I'm like, if this one wonky part does not work in this beat. This beat beat. It just sounds terrible.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, that. Yeah. It's just like, who puts. I think that's a glockenspiel. And then, like, dark, like fake choir. Like, ominous. It's just like, every single beat, you're just like, who pairs these sounds together?

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

And then writing as if, like, they're sampling. They sound like loops, but they're just creating original parts that sound like they sampled them, which, like, people weren't doing back then. Not especially. Not like this. And it's just like. It's just.

[Charles Holmes]

It's. This is. It makes. Every single time I listen to this, it makes my skin crawl. You have to think about how mad they were at the industry when you hear I ain't spend one rap dollar in three years.

[Cole Kushna]

That line is such a flex.

[Charles Holmes]

What? He's just like. It punches you in the gut when.

[Cole Kushna]

He says, open the Frigidaire 25 to life in here. Okay, for. For one, rhyming Frigidaire with life in here is, like, brilliant. But open the fridge 20. To describe the Coke in your fridge as 20. 25 to life in here is just what then following it up with so much white, you might think the whole your Holy Christ is near like throwing.

[Charles Holmes]

Your Louis V. Millionaires to kill the glare Ice trays, nada. All you see is pigeons.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh.

[Charles Holmes]

Or. But also the here. Do you understand how royalty check n I never been Coke money clean through Merrill lynch account Just gasp at the smell of it. Meet the dealer ain't a bitch reala so you ain't got a question why Pusha don't feel ya? Knock it the fuck off. This is why Pusha T's in my top five. Like, this is such a dis. Like, Pusha T has been like, I wrote in my notes, this is the song that sent malice to church. He was like, this is not St. Todd. He was just like, nah. My brother Is fucking the devil incarnate. I need to get away from, like. This is the type of shit when you listen to it, like, I run up the wall. I love this.

[Cole Kushna]

They're so. When they want to be. They're so vicious too. That's. I went. Every time there's like a. Aside from Dirty Money, there's not a lot of talk of, like, women. But every time they degrade women, it just. It like, pains my soul. Because they're so good about being vicious and, like, you know, belittling people when they do it. I'm just like, oh, that hurts. But it's so good.

[Charles Holmes]

And I think the thing that. When I was talking earlier about celebrating this moment, because a lot of people might see this pairing and might be like, wait, why are you pairing? Hell Hath no Fury against mad villainy. I think that this is such an important time for rap. I want to look at the 2006 rap albums that are coming out. We have Hip Hop is Dead by Nas, King by ti, Food and Liquor by Lupe Fiasco, Kingdom Come by Jay Z, and then the Blue Carpet Treatment, Snoop Dogg, a bunch of others. But what I will say is a couple of these rappers are getting long in the tooth. This is also the year of Idlewild, Ludacris release Therapy. Kingdom Come. The less we say about that, the better. Hip Hop Is Dead is an album that I think was very much celebrated in the time, but I don't know if it's aged the best. And the reason I bring up all of that is I remember in 2006, even me kind of feeling like, wait, what is hip hop like? Like, where. Where is it going? It kind. When Kingdom Come came out, I was like, this is Jay Z. This is like the whole forgetting, like, Nas is like, hip hop is. How could you. And obviously with TI Is King, that to me is like, what you know about that is fucking monumental. But they're around that time. The south is coming up and people are starting to feel like New York as the Mecca of hip hop is slowly starting to recede. And I think Clipse is such a perfect group to distill. Even within that chaos. Most of the records I named are not anywhere close to those rappers best. And Hell Hath no Fury to me, was a moment where people like, we can still do this, right? We can still rap about the same things. It's just gonna take a elite rhyming, and it's going to take production that is going to be kind of like 1, 2, 3 steps above what Y' all think it needs to be, you know, And I just. Sorry. Like, when I talk about music that I love, I love this album. I love keys open doors. And that leads into my biggest moment. Now I will be real. This biggest moment was a little bit above me in terms of age, but I remember it happening. I remember listening to the mixtapes and it was interesting. When Malice was talking about this run, somebody asked him about the We Got it for cheap series. This was something that they had to do out of necessity.

[Cole Kushna]

Where the mixtape run.

[Charles Holmes]

The mixtape run, where they have to. What's funny about this is we have a celebrated clips album where Pusha T essentially has to buy himself out of the Def Jam deal to work with Roc Nation. And we have the same thing with jive. And what I love about the mixtape run was it proves to you that real art rises to the top in the same way that when Doom loses his brother and he's adrift at sea, he goes back to the basics of the foundation and he. He's like, y' all can't stop me. Some people are born to do this and clips are born to do this. Where it's like, at that point, Malice had said in. In. In recent interviews for their new album, I was like, fuck. Mixtape mixtapes. We're album artists. You have to think at. At this point, you work so you don't have to do the mixtapes. You are like, mixtapes are something where you are like, ah, I want to get on a clue mixtape. I want to do this, I want to do that. That's. That's to get your foot through the door. It get your off. But once you're a major label rapper, you're like, hov ain't dropping mix. Like, what the.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

And for clips to be like, nah, for them to see the vision where this is still early in the game. Of course you have Gucci and you're going to have Wayne. You're going to have all these things. But for a group like Clips to be like, we're going to take the clips, we going to take the reup gang, and we're going to get out of the mud. We are going to take these beats and we are going to show you that we can outwrap you. That, to me, is one of the most influential, not only mixtape runs, but influential choices that they make. Because when you get to my level, like, when you get to. When I become like a super fan of hip hop, that becomes a blueprint. Wale, Kid, Cudi, Currency, obviously, all of These people. But like I'm talking about the people who come after the, like the Waynes and the Gucci's and the clips. They're like the only way for me to break through mixtape.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Is mixtapes like I'm talking about? Nah. Right? I'm talking about two dope boys, you know, infecting my parents computer, downloading all this shit clips. And the way that the industry not only treated them at this moment, but has treated them historically. They've always proven that real music will triumph. There is a reason why their new album is one of the few rap albums from this year that is sticking. And you have to think how long it took them to get that out. All of this music was old. They should have released it this like what, a year, two years ago?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

To me I'm just like that. Like that is what hip hop is. You cannot stop Pusha T and Malice from rapping. When you listen to especially We Got It Cheap Volume two, dog. They sound pissed. They sound like, how, how dare y' all stop us. Roof off the drop, neck up the top. Look at me, Jack in the box. Yeah, you acting a lot. You ain't big, you ain't talking. We only respect J. Prince for rapping a lot. You're rain on the top. Never quote him. I know him. If you ain't kissed his mama, how to you ride for him? But Justin, can you kind of like, because you were. You were a little bit. I think I was still in middle school when this is dropping. Can you kind of like paint the picture of just like how important this was, just not for clips, but almost kind of like calcifying them in the hipster kind of firmament.

[Justin]

It similar to 50. They were doing it out of a place of necessity as much as anything, right. Because they were in a situation where they were getting jerked around by their label. Right. And they needed to do this. And the music on it was so good that it became undeniable. And it went from these guys who had made grinding and they made a pretty good record. And you know, when's the last time you kind of blew up a little. But like, you know, there were a lot of rappers around that time. Like Fabulous is on. Lord willing, Fabulous was a much bigger rapper. I think if you had guessed in 2002 who was going to be the artist with more lasting potential, you would have picked Fabulous over the clips. But then they go, you are right.

[Charles Holmes]

But never. I was never into Fab.

[Justin]

But like in 2001, 2002, that's not an insane thing to say.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah, no. Fab was the one where people like, yo, he's the next hov. I'm like, all right, fucking relax.

[Justin]

He was. He was fine. I think. I think history is history on a long enough timeline puts everyone where they should be, I think. And I think where Fabulous is where he should be, and the clips are where they should be. You just wouldn't have guessed it at that time. This run is really what solidifies it. And this is the run that gets them. Getting that attention from Pitchfork, getting the attention from people who may not have been listening to Grinding in the Moment may have not been that, you know, they might not have bumped Lord willing like that. It really changed things for them.

[Charles Holmes]

And I. And I also think the last thing before we kind of like, pit these both albums together is I. I got into music journalism with a chip on my shoulder because I was like. It took white publications and white critics to. To get a record like this and records from Cam and Dipset and all of these people. Wayne. The prestige that they deserved. Because I think what was happening is that I remember, like, my grandfather got me a subscription to, like, Rolling Stone at a point when, like, Rolling Stone wasn't whatever, but I was like. It was one of my first music magazines. And I remember having this conscious feeling of. I'm like, wait, wait, why aren't there any black critics in these magazines? Why aren't there any black critics on these blogs reviewing this music? It's always. It's nine times out of ten it would be a white critic or a white journalist sometimes feeling like they were going on a safari and then being surprised at the depth of this music because it's not places that they're coming from where it's just like. I think the thing that Pusha T and Mouse have been so good at reclaiming over the years is like, no, no, no, no. Our music was always deep. Our music was always technically proficient. We were always great rappers. It took a while for y' all to catch on. And I think that that's a battle that we're still facing where it was just like when I was coming up during the Future Run and the Thug Run and the Migos run and everything. Migos, better than the Beatles was a joke. It was always a troll is joke. But I think it was always born from a place of. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. How come we can only talk about Migos or Thug in ways that's not honoring that what they're doing is so influential and is so above its time and literally went a couple of years later. If the Billie Eilish cribs from it or an Ariana Grande now, it's genius. But when they're doing it because they're coming from the trap or because they're coming from like Virginia Hood or whatever, it's less. And I think that this to me was an eye opening moment of like me being like, no, no, no. Street rap, coke, rap, all of this is just as important as an illmatic is just as important as a this or that. It's just sometimes it takes people, especially like black critics being like, hey, yo, we don't need the white co sign. It's cool. But Clips was always cool to me. Like, Clips was always ahead of his time. It is always like a foundational record for me. I just had to get that shit off because sometimes I'm like, I get it. Like we get all the like perfect scores. But I'm like, it shouldn't have had to take white publications for. For most people to take Clips seriously, you know.

[Cole Kushna]

Beautiful. I'm dreading this. Head to Head.

[Charles Holmes]

We gotta go. We gotta go to the Head to Head.

[Justin]

He's realizing it now. We said beforehand, it's like, you gotta, you gotta win the right rounds.

[Cole Kushna]

All right, now it's time to put hell hath no fury against mad villainy in a Head to Head. Remember the goal of this season to crown the best album of the 21st century so far. Right now, Charles and I must decide whether which of these two albums advances into the season finale Royal Rumble. To do this, we're pitting the two, the five categories head to head against each other. One point will be awarded for each category win and the most total points win biggest song versus biggest song. If we're going by the criteria of what was the bigger song, we have Mr. Me Too versus all caps.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

Is this a debate or was.

[Charles Holmes]

So this is what's hard because, like.

[Cole Kushna]

In the moment I think Mr. Me Too was the biggest song in the moment.

[Charles Holmes]

It's 65 on the US Hot R& B hip hop songs. It has a lot of streams. The music video was iconic. Now this is where it gets tricky because I feel like we've been fudging this where it's like, usually it was easier where we could go by sales. We can't really go by sales because I, I usually for this I go on raa. And I was just like, oh, they need. I was actually surprised. Like doom and clips don't have that many plaques.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

All caps I want to say is probably bigger now. Now.

[Cole Kushna]

Now.

[Charles Holmes]

Mr. Me Too was bigger than the I think the argument that I could make is that Mr. Me Too was a more. Is a more seismic record and it is just like not like us. Mr. B2 the entire beef. Mr. B2 the entire story of Addie Don, Mr. Me too. All the Kanye Drake, Mr. Me too. Like there's just like. There's a level of. I was just like. It is the one domino that like fell over in 2006 where I'm just like, yeah. Literally waking up and having to be like, oh, Drake is still with the lawsuit. Thanks clips. Thanks Mr. Me too. Like now as a hip hop head all caps is just such a fucking foundational.

[Cole Kushna]

I will just say streams wise. It's kind of crazy. Mr. Me too. And this is not a. A of course a Perfect metric. But Mr. Me Too. 16 million streams all caps. 214 million streams.

[Charles Holmes]

But what I will say and I want to be fair, a lot of that bump might be the nostalgia of. It's a great song.

[Cole Kushna]

I know what you're saying.

[Charles Holmes]

You know what I'm saying. Where we lost. We lost Doom. And I do think that. That he was already mad villainy was already gaming gaining in esteem over the years in terms of what we were talking about like year over year, streams increasing. I think the death was just like in the same way with Mac Miller where I was just like right.

[Cole Kushna]

I think that account 200 million streams though.

[Charles Holmes]

It's. It's all.

[Cole Kushna]

And not saying. Not saying that streams is a perfect metric but it's mad at me.

[Charles Holmes]

I think I would still listen to Mr. Me Too though.

[Cole Kushna]

Like it's a weird one because it was clearly Mr. Me Too in the moment. But. But I If we're looking back on the 21st century but I can make.

[Charles Holmes]

The argument as well if we're looking back at the 20. Like Justin, where do you. What do you. Tyler the creator is like if Mr. B2 doesn't drop like Tyler Creator offuture are not here. They're just like. They're just not.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. It's a hard one though. It's this. Usually this is the obvious category.

[Charles Holmes]

I love them both. This is like Picking between my children.

[Justin]

Actually not which song had the bigger impact. Which song itself do you think has the most footprint right now?

[Cole Kushna]

If you put it on. If you played the two back to back, what song's getting more excitement? I think it's all caps now.

[Charles Holmes]

I actually don't know. I actually did Like, I think of a dj. Like, I think a lot of the heads would be like. Like, yeah, but if Mr. Me Too drops, I think people would riot. Like, I think people would riot.

[Cole Kushna]

I. I don't know. Feels like.

[Charles Holmes]

Let's come back.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, let's come back.

[Charles Holmes]

Let's come back to this. I think best song is easy. I like. I like. I like Mama, I'm so sorry.

[Cole Kushna]

Meat Grinder is one of.

[Charles Holmes]

But me Grinder is just a foundational record. Like, I Like. I'm sorry I. That I didn't argue more, but just. I. I can't.

[Cole Kushna]

Worst song. I'm. I'll just give you the point.

[Charles Holmes]

We don't need to debate. We don't need to debate.

[Cole Kushna]

Wild Child. Sorry.

[Charles Holmes]

Now this is where it gets interesting.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Wait. Actually, before we're gonna. Instead. Instead of doing best deep cut, we got biggest song still that. We have to come back to that best deep cut before that best moment seems easy. I think it is the mixtape run.

[Cole Kushna]

Like. Yeah, I mean, I didn't really have a. I didn't. Just didn't really have a best moment to pull from, so I guess you win by technicality. Justin, is it. Do I need to be putting up more of a fight with this one?

[Justin]

No. Yeah, this. This is a clear win on Charles.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah, the. The mixtape run is actually, I. I think just.

[Cole Kushna]

It's mixtape run. It's. It's.

[Charles Holmes]

It's the BBC. Like. Like, it is the ice cream. It's the skateboard. It's every. Like, to me, I did. I thought it would be cheating to encompass that. But the world that they built around this album.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah, it's. It's really hard to kind of.

[Cole Kushna]

And them getting out of their deal coming, like, finally resolving that off the. Off the back of that mixtape run. I'll give you that. So we have Meat Grinder for Doom.

[Charles Holmes]

Yep.

[Cole Kushna]

Point for clips on Wild Child. Point for clips on best moment. So clips is up 2, 1.

[Charles Holmes]

All right. Best deep cut. Let's go.

[Cole Kushna]

Figaro versus. What'd you pick for be? Oh, oh. Keys Open Doors.

[Charles Holmes]

Yo, is Keys Open Doors, bro?

[Cole Kushna]

It's really not, though. Figaro.

[Charles Holmes]

It's Keys.

[Cole Kushna]

Who's rapping better? Who's rapping better?

[Charles Holmes]

Pusha T. Push A T. Really?

[Cole Kushna]

Are we gonna do this? We're gonna do this. Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah. And I love. I love Figaro. I do. I do. But Keys Open Doors is a spiritual experience. It is a spiritual. Like. It is like. Like, I get it. I get it. We love. We love Doom. Doom's a legend. And I get a lot of backpackers that be like you, Charles. But when we're talking about just uncut crap, just, just, just, just the un. That it's keys up here. Like, if we play them back to back, we could do the challenge. We could play them back to back. Back. You want to?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Charles Holmes]

Play a little bit of Figaro.

[Cole Kushna]

Don't pretend like you're not impressed. Come on. Okay, now.

[Charles Holmes]

Keys open doors. Keys open doors. Keys open door. Keys. Keys open doors.

[Cole Kushna]

They're so good. They're both so good.

[Charles Holmes]

Just wait for it. Come on. Keys open doors is incredible as a deep cut. As like a deep. Truly like the heads. No, the heads know if you go to a rap fan who loves the clips and you're like, what's one of the best Pusha T verses? And you throw that on, it's gonna go bananas.

[Cole Kushna]

If you were supposedly to win this, it solidifies clips winning this.

[Charles Holmes]

What did I say when I was on the last clips episode? Clips is my favorite hip hop group of all time. I listen to them the most. Pusha t is a top five rapper to me.

[Cole Kushna]

What's the better album, though? Maybe we just need to get out of the category. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Charles Holmes]

We're not doing this. We not doing this. It's about winning. This is about winning. This is about winning because listeners could.

[Cole Kushna]

Point to the fact that we're using these categories, black and white, to determine the winner when maybe there should be more to it than just five categories, one to one.

[Charles Holmes]

But it seems. It seems an interesting thing has been happening this season where technically I'll be winning the categories.

[Cole Kushna]

Just because you're louder.

[Charles Holmes]

Well, what? No. Cause I'm playing the game the way it was designed. I am playing the game like, that's the ringer in me. Like, come on, bro. I could have picked keys up. And doors are the best song. I'll put it on deep cut Because I knew you could have beat it. I knew you could. I was like, there was no way I'm winning that song. I knew that. I was like. Like, I could win this, though. Okay, Now I can make you. I can actually. I can make you a deal. A gentleman's agreement.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

Because it's clear that clips is going to win. Even if I love mad villainy.

[Cole Kushna]

This is an error in our system.

[Charles Holmes]

Do you?

[Cole Kushna]

Because mad villainy is just the clear winner. It just is. It really is.

[Charles Holmes]

Were you not the person when we were going back and forth on what albums could go toe to toe. You came into the group chat you like, yo, have we thought of the cliffs? So don't. Don't be fronting like you wasn't like, hey, yo. Yeah, it might have a chance.

[Cole Kushna]

It's an interesting conversation. But Matt villainy.

[Charles Holmes]

Oh, so you set me up for an interesting conversation, but I could never win. Oh, that's how you do it. Hey, yo, dissect listeners. You hearing, man? You hear, man.

[Cole Kushna]

It's about picking the right album.

[Charles Holmes]

And it's funny.

[Cole Kushna]

It's not about winning.

[Charles Holmes]

It's funny how I originally had mad villainy, and then you had mad villainy, and now I had a clip, and now I gotta just lose on a technical. Oh, all right. Word.

[Cole Kushna]

You were gonna pick 50. You're gonna go to bat for 50.

[Charles Holmes]

Whoa. No, no, no, no, no. We had an argument where I was just like, wait, I want Madvillian. You're like, I want Madvillian. I'm like, I don't want 50. And that's why we had to just. Clips. Don't do that. Don't do. Because here's the thing. Next episode, and you're so. You big mad. Cause I got the next. I got the next one. We was like, this one's mine. I'll make you a deal. I'll make you a deal. Because, you know, I won. Because we could go. We could go. Technically, Justin, all caps is all caps.

[Cole Kushna]

A bigger song. So give me all caps. And we're at a tie.

[Charles Holmes]

What I will say we. We. This is where we recorded videos. But before we play them for who won last, we have Kid A Discovery. We have Hell had no Fury, and we have mad villainy. How is okay, if I give you mad villainy? I want discovery. That's fair. Like, I can't. No, like, we can't keep doing this. This is interesting because I love Madvillinity. Because I would be happy if madvillainy makes it. Cause I could, like, Mad Villainy's, like, damn near perfect. But I'd be just as happy to have Eclipse just for my clipsters. Get one on the board. But. Okay, pick, pick.

[Cole Kushna]

This is interesting. Okay, so if so we. So just to make this clear for the listeners, because they may. Maybe it's not clear for them, we have a tiebreaker to do at the end of this episode between our draw between Discovery and Kid A, which we couldn't decide. Last episode, we had our friends at the ringer, a couple friends at the ringer record a video that we're gonna react to that we don't know.

[Charles Holmes]

Rock critics.

[Cole Kushna]

Rock critics that we don't know the results to. They're gonna determine the winner by their votes.

[Charles Holmes]

I also love Kid A. Don't kill me. Like, I love Kid A. These are albums we like. We love. All right, but.

[Cole Kushna]

But now you are saying that if I concede Kid A to Discovery, that you'll concede clips to Mad Villainy.

[Charles Holmes]

That would be a fair.

[Cole Kushna]

That's the exchange.

[Charles Holmes]

That would be a fair exchange that I would.

[Cole Kushna]

Is this a. Is this a fair bargain, Justin? Is this bread breaking the rules, or can we do this? Is this fair?

[Charles Holmes]

This is the. We make the rules.

[Cole Kushna]

Well, he's our referee.

[Justin]

All right, so just let me get this clear. If this. I don't know if we want to call it a plea deal.

[Cole Kushna]

I don't know if we want to.

[Justin]

Call it a out of court settlement.

[Charles Holmes]

This is an out of court settlement for our friendship.

[Justin]

Okay, so what would happen is Mad Villainy advances and Discovery advances right now.

[Cole Kushna]

No. Yeah.

[Justin]

Cole, you might want to take this deal.

[Cole Kushna]

If I take the deal, can we still. I want to see what they voted for.

[Charles Holmes]

No, no, no. We're still going to play. We still going to play it. But if you take the deal, it's like. You take the deal, and then we reveal if you would have won.

[Cole Kushna]

This is a fucking devil's bargain, dude. This is a push a t bargain. Because Kid A is my favorite album of all time. However. However. Fucking Daft Daft Punk is literally. Discovery is right there. And.

[Charles Holmes]

And I will say, if it was.

[Cole Kushna]

Any other album but Discovery, I would be vouching for Kid A more. Now I'm trying to think, does Kid A really have a shot against you in the finale? Probably not.

[Charles Holmes]

You can redact this, but they. We already know what's coming. Please redact like a beep Ken go against and a bunch of the. Like. I don't know if it can.

[Cole Kushna]

I think personally, it can.

[Charles Holmes]

No, no. I think personally.

[Cole Kushna]

But if we're staying true to our premise of hip hop and its importance to the 21st century, like, I don't know if we can pick Kid A in the finale. So part of me is like, is this the better thing? Because I just feel like if we don't pick Matt Villain, there will be a boycott. People will stop listening to the show.

[Charles Holmes]

They will. But also, what I will say, depending upon what Kendrick album we pick, Mad Villainy can go. Like. I'm not saying it will win, but Mad Villainy is an interesting conversation.

[Cole Kushna]

It really is.

[Charles Holmes]

Mad Villain is an interesting conversation on a couple albums where I'm like, ooh, ooh.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, you got me, Charles. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna take the plea deal. I'm sorry.

[Charles Holmes]

Bad Villain himself.

[Cole Kushna]

All right.

[Charles Holmes]

And I will just say, shout out, Justin. When I got held out, I fear he's like, bro, this is going. We was just like. Cause I love it. But I was like, bro, I gotta play the rule. Like, I got. I gotta get on the mudslide now. I was like, all right. If I put this song here, if I put this moment here, I think I see him.

[Cole Kushna]

And you came extra hard with the energy, dude. Sometimes, like, I'm a very mellow person, and then when people act this way, I'm just. I shut down. So I'm just.

[Charles Holmes]

No, but here's the thing. What people don't realize about you, you do do that. But behind the scenes, you're like, all right, all right. Well, Charles, I'm gonna pick this album. Why don't you pick this album? And I'm like, this man set me up. This man set me the fuck up, bro. And I was tired of that.

[Cole Kushna]

I gotta use my wit.

[Charles Holmes]

I don't have. Cause. Here's the thing.

[Cole Kushna]

Use the theatrical.

[Charles Holmes]

I love my beautiful dark, twisted fantasy, too. But you're like, I can't talk about a Draco. I was like, we have to have Dracula Drake on it. I knew my beautiful dark, twisted fantasy was gonna lose. I mean, was gonna win. I knew it. So to everybody out there, I've been taking. I've been taking the L's.

[Cole Kushna]

Cause I'm just like, I don't wait till next episode.

[Charles Holmes]

I'm next episode. Yeah, man. Your album has no chance.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

Your album has no chance.

[Cole Kushna]

All right, let's official. A sigh of relief. We are picking the right album. Mad villainy, Mad lib and doom.

[Charles Holmes]

You're so happy. You.

[Cole Kushna]

But I have now conceded Kid A to Discovery.

[Charles Holmes]

This is good podcasting. This is good podcasting.

[Cole Kushna]

You got me, Charles. You did. You got me.

[Charles Holmes]

But.

[Cole Kushna]

But let's. Let's honor what we were going to do, because we had.

[Charles Holmes]

We have two esteemed colleagues.

[Cole Kushna]

Rob Parvilla, host of 60 songs that explain the 90s, and Yossi from Bandsplain. Yossi Salak from Band Slain. Both recorded little videos casting their votes. So if they tie, if they both pick Kid A or both pick Discovery, Justin did write down his pick on a piece of paper that he will reveal. We can see that there what his pick was going to be. If there was a tiebreaker. So let's start with. We'll start with Rob. We're going to react to the video. We'll. We'll put it on the screen. But here we go. I'm picking Daft Punk. I'm picking Discovery. I'm tired of talking about Radiohead, tired of thinking about Radio Radiohead. I'm tired of listening to Radiohead, if.

[Charles Holmes]

You want the truth. And Kid A is like my fourth.

[Cole Kushna]

Fifth or sixth favorite Radiohead album at this point. Whereas Discovery has digital love on it and is arguably the most influential pop album of the last 20 years. And it's not Daft Punk's fault if that influence extends to, like, lmfao. I'd rather listen to LMFAO than Radio Head at this point. Honestly. It's Daft Punk. Good luck to you and, you know, reach out anytime.

[Charles Holmes]

Thank you so much, Rob. You are not only one of the hardest working critics at. In the world and at the ringer, you are a devoted father and I've never disagreed with you and you've always been right. So thank you, Rob, so much for taking out your time. Now can we go to Yossi?

[Cole Kushna]

Probably to nobody on this earth. Surprise. I'm casting my vote for Kid A. Babe, I think Kid A was a revolution. I think the unprecedented just jump from like a completely successful album like, okay, Computer making such a left turn into this sort of alienating but ultimately like incredibly impactful and inspirational and influenced.

[Charles Holmes]

Thing.

[Cole Kushna]

That was Kid A is phenomenal. I also think it was one of the first albums that people largely experienced via the Internet, if you can believe it.

[Charles Holmes]

Well, thank you for Yossi, also one of the working hardest critics and people at the ringer. You're wrong. But also thank you for taking out the time.

[Cole Kushna]

Yassi gets it.

[Charles Holmes]

So interesting. It's a split decision.

[Cole Kushna]

Well, now Justin.

[Charles Holmes]

Now Justin reveal live. I don't actually know what Justin's gonna pick.

[Cole Kushna]

I know what he's gonna pick.

[Justin]

Guys, I gotta be real. This is not Justin sale song standing. And we keep running into this and Cole, I'm really sorry. Yeah, but.

[Cole Kushna]

So I took the deal.

[Justin]

You took the deal.

[Charles Holmes]

It was actually very smart of you to take.

[Justin]

I told you to take the deal. Yeah, I've been texting with a bunch of critics over here too, and it was just. They said Figaro over Keys Open Doors, but they were adamant in Mr. Me Too over all caps. Okay, so you could have walked away with nothing if. Because I'm, I'm. I'm done with Having to make these decisions.

[Charles Holmes]

Justin did call me. He's just like, you guys can't throw to me anymore. Just don't. Don't do it. Like, you guys need to fucking pick. But I will say this worked out exactly how I planned. This is my super villain plan, if I'm going to be honest with you, right? Because I was like, damn, there's a really big chance I'm going to lose the Discovery. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to. Like, I. I kid you not. Last night I was like, if I can make Hell Hath no Fury win, even though I want Mad Villainy to win, I can strike a deal. Because I was just like, if Discovery and Mad Villainy go, I win both. If Kid A and Mad Villainy, I'm walking out here like, dog, dog. What the fuck have we been doing?

[Cole Kushna]

Well, all things considered, I think this is an acceptable choice. I would have liked to see Kid A. I think there might be some pushback from listeners. That kid aided it in advance. But if that's the case, though, like, maybe just go listen to Discovery again. Because I thought Kid A was just gonna swamp Discovery until I just. Just sank back into that world and that it's a fucking phenomenal album. And if. If our decision on this little show could cast some. Some love and get people. More people to return to Discovery because it's. It advances over Kid A. Beautiful.

[Charles Holmes]

And I also do want to be real to the listeners when we're getting very excited. I'm not calling any of these albums bad. Like, it's like, I'm trying to win a. Like, I'm just like. We're talking about, like 100 out of 1/ hundreds. This is just like comparing like, apples are. I was just like, like, guys, I like to win, but wow. Woo. Look at us. Look at us.

[Cole Kushna]

Cole. Very smart patrols.

[Charles Holmes]

We are back. First, is this the most contentious season we've had of the show where we didn't even get. We didn't even get to cultural exchange because we couldn't agree.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, yeah, last episode. Yeah, we didn't have a cultural exchange. I had to go take my daughter to gymnastics practice. Yeah. Well, last episode, definitely Beyonce blueprint. Definitely. I can't really. It's a different exercise because we're putting the albums together. Two albums that we both love to, you know, head to head, where songs are a little bit less. I mean, you know, these are albums and this is a bigger conversation. So. So it's been fun, though. It's challenging Me, I'm not a natural debater. I'm not naturally loud and everything. I'm not. You are. And so, like, I'm really trying my best.

[Charles Holmes]

Here's the thing. Like, I love it as a listener, but you pull out to you like, all right, I'm about to break down. How to joke this? I'm like, all right, I gotta start yelling if I'm gonna win this shit, bro. I'm just like, I gotta. But for cultural exchange, we traded two albums that we both love. You gave me Killers Hot Fudge. I gave you Strokes. Is this it? And I will start off because I've given you this hot take, and you told me that you have an opinion that I've been waiting, literally, like, a week to hear. Okay, where? I remember buying Hot Fuss. I love this album. People like, you got. Why is the Killers in this shit? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, y' all listen to their debut.

[Cole Kushna]

Album, so Good Crack. So Good.

[Charles Holmes]

But the thing that has always been lobbed against this album and the feeling that I had when I was a kid and even when I return to it now, is half this album is some of the best recorded music that's ever been recorded, and the other half just cannot live up to it. Not bad, but it is almost like they run out of gas halfway through, and they are, like, doing their best to, like, try to get it back. So the feeling I had re listening now was I was like, oh, this is still true. But my love for these songs increased because I was like, I think the Killers kind of got uncool for a while, and now I just. Going back to the. I was just like, oh, man, this is. This is a phenomenal record.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, they got. Because they were what happened with Counterpart to the Strokes. Strokes were so effortlessly cool.

[Charles Holmes]

Un.

[Cole Kushna]

Effortlessly cool in terms of, like, their image, which was crafted, but it gave off, like, we're not trying, and that's what makes us cool. Y where Killers, like, they were glam, and they were unabashed glam. They wanted to be rock stars. They were. They had the bright lights. They're from Vegas. And so in an era where we're talking about the Neptunes, we're talking about the Strokes being the epitome of cool. American Apparel, bape, all this stuff. Like, the Killer is trying to harken back to kind of this mix of glam rock from the 70s mixed with the electro of the 80s mixed with, like, Americana of, like, Bruce Springsteen. Just. Yeah, they kind of got branded as corny during this time, but the first five, six songs on this album are just some of the best songs of the 21st century. I mean like the. So my hot take is that one. The second half isn't as bad if you. So what I did was I started the album at the second half so I didn't listen to the first five songs. And you realize actually what I think more than bad songs is a. A bad sequencing of this album. They front loaded it way too much, which I get doing on a debut album. But if they would have just saved some of these songs and just interspersed some of the hits into like just a few little tweaks, I think we would be talking about this album a little bit more fondly in terms of like. Yeah, because when you. Every time you bring this album back up, it is the asterisk to the album where it's like Mr. Bright side. Smile like you mean it. Somebody told me all these things are just phenomenal. But if they had just moved two of those songs a little bit lower because you get it back with like Change my mind I think is a great song. You know, Believe Me Natalie is like. It really kind of starts to fall off but you know, everything will be all right as a perfectly fine ballad closer. Andy is your. Andy, you're a star is not that bad. It's a sequencing problem more than it is. These are bad songs songs.

[Charles Holmes]

So you have a sequence that you think would have worked. Like do you have your perfect sequence for this album?

[Cole Kushna]

I. I didn't do that. But all I think. I think on top. I think it's the run of on top of end of your star on top. Change your mind. And then when you get to Believe me, Natalie, you're just like, what happened? So if you can just simply take either all these things I've done or even like somebody told. Maybe not somebody told me, but just, just. I mean the epic song that is all these things that I've done doesn't need to be the fifth song on this album after all those songs. You can sequence that after on top, then go into change your mind and I think it fixes so much so. But when you return, do you listen to this album regularly? Aside from this? Just hearing the singles everywhere still.

[Charles Holmes]

I love this album as a kid and because of the corniness like it like that you were talking about, I had internalized that this is a corny record just like it. Because you were a kid. And then I went back to. I was like, no, no, no. You actually had pretty good tastes as a cuz like, what's funny is, like, I would listen to the Strokes and then I would listen to the Killers. Like. Like, they were a part of. Like, it was like Strokes, Arctic Monkeys, Killers, Black Escape. Like, I was listening to all the. And then I was listening to a bunch of bands that were like, do you remember the Black Kids?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Like, there was the Black Kids, there was the Virgin Stevie on the radio. I tried to get into. That was a little bit more. More difficult. Grizzly Bear. I listen to all the. You want to know what? Killer song is one of my favorites, though? And I just want to sing it.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Are We Human? Are We Dancers?

[Cole Kushna]

That album is great. I think that's a better album, start to finish. Doesn't have the highs of. Of Hot Fuss, but I'm so glad.

[Charles Holmes]

You gave me this. This is a great pick. But Strokes.

[Cole Kushna]

And I'll just say, the last thing I'll say about the Killers is that. That in this conversation of, like, 21st century music, I think it's important that we acknowledge the electronic influence of these. Of this album in terms of, like, this is the time that. That rock musicians, especially of this kind of trying to do the glam rock thing, are incorporating synthesizers and electronic music and trying to tap into the daft punk electro kind of wave that was happening in the early 2000s. And I think that when we're going to talk about the Strokes, which is a little more traditional rock talk in terms of instrumentation, it's important to acknowledge that we see the influence that we've been talking about all season in an album like this. Infiltrating rock music, where, like, the turn of the century was like, where does rock music go? We have kid a point to. About pointing certain places, but we also have a Hot fuss where we see the. We see rock bands, traditional rock bands, starting to incorporate electronics, which would only grow more intense as the century goes on.

[Charles Holmes]

On.

[Cole Kushna]

So Strokes.

[Charles Holmes]

Couldn't have said it better myself, you.

[Cole Kushna]

Know, in the moment, I was not the biggest Strokes fan. And this is more me being pretentious in terms of, like. Like, all they're doing is down strumming on the guitar.

[Charles Holmes]

And like, that was the big thing. Like, because I was like, deep into. Like, I was reading everything and then knock against the Strokes is just like. Like. My brother was learning how to, like, play the drums and his drum teacher would, like, always laugh because he would want to learn Strokes. He's like, this drumming is not. Like, it's not. This isn't hard. It's not complicated. But that's actually why I always tell people I like this album because this was on ramp for. My parents listened to rock music. But me having the band that I was just like, this is so simple. I get it. And then that was me listening to, like, going to the Velvet Underground and just like, it was like, this is an album. This is a perfect album to me. But to me, this is a nice entree album. Where you're like. If you look at what influenced them, them, then you could be like, oh, I can go back to the other things they're pulling from.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. And on re. Listen, I think all that. I just didn't appreciate what they're doing. Because when you make music this good, no matter the techniques you're using or how musical it is in terms of technically being, you know, something proficient or brilliant, like, when you make songs that are this good, you're doing something, you're doing the most important thing right, which is making good songs, great melodies, things that are memorable, things that move you so it doesn't really matter how you get there. I think I was just being pretentious at the time, but returning to it, it's like, I see why it works. I see. I kind of. I kind of regret not being into them because I feel like I missed out on. Of course I knew of them, but I wasn't super into them, and I feel like I should have been.

[Charles Holmes]

You know, I mean, it's one of those things as well, where I think what they did so well on this album especially, is that at a time in music where I think things were getting so complex and things were getting so weird. Like, if you take, like, a. Like, think about what Radiohead is doing, it's a lot. It's retro osic. They're like, actually, we're gonna go back to kind of like, some of the foundations of rock and roll where there's a bunch of cool white boys who barely know how to. Like, they knew how to play. Barely know how to play their instruments, you know? And it's like, Julian Crow, Casa Blanca is just like, no, he can say like, he. But, yeah, he's struggling a little bit. And, like, that opened my mind to being like, oh, no. That's what's beautiful about rock is like, sometimes the best rock bands are not the best musicians. They're the best at being like, no. But when we're all together, there's something like. There's an alchemy that's just like.

[Cole Kushna]

Well, sometimes it's just taste and it's Just the same way, like, what makes a good. What makes Kanye great or any of these people that were any of these producers great? It's not. Not. It's usually. I mean, maybe da pun cakes. It's both, but usually it's not. They are technically the best. Yeah, it is. They have style, they have taste. They could curate sounds. And the Strokes were.

[Charles Holmes]

That.

[Cole Kushna]

They were just like, whether they could play the instruments well or not is kind of secondary to them. Just like, knowing how to write a catchy guitar riff. That's the most important thing. Not if it's. If it's wowing you. Right. And.

[Charles Holmes]

And I will say on subsequent records, because I've been a Strokes fan for a long time. Time. They get to the point where they're like, we're actually going to show you that we actually know how to, like, play our instruments. Like, this isn't funny anymore. They get like, a lot of their usual, like, oh, this is like a. They are a rock band. But to your point, they knew what they were doing. Like, they. They knew what they were doing. But now for this cultural exchange that we have coming up.

[Cole Kushna]

Where are you going?

[Charles Holmes]

Part of me, I had an album that I wanted to give you that's from my heart.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

But I have an album that I think makes more thematic sense for our next episode.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

Maybe Justin can help me out. You've already. Part of me is just like, should I give you d' Angelo's Voodoo? Which.

[Cole Kushna]

This is. Yeah, I was gonna pick it for both of us. I was gonna kind of pick it for myself because d' Angelo's Voodoo is an album that everyone I would like, a lot of people would say deserves to be in this conversation that we're having this season that I'm not. Not totally familiar with, admittedly.

[Charles Holmes]

Like, so this is an album to me where it's like, it's not an album that I go. I go to, but it is a project that is woven into my life in terms of just like, this is what my parents were listening to when I was in the car. We're listening to R and B. We're listening to, like, I think the. The. The. The channel was like, Kiss FM out of New York. Like, Hot 97 Power 105. Like, this is. This is an album where it's like, I don't listen to it because I'm just like, this is. This was like, kind of like my parents music, my, like, older cousins. It is just like, I wanted to pick it because I'm just like, oh, with the R B episode that we're about to have, I. I was like, damn it. It would be such a drag if we didn't give d'. Angelo.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Just kind of like the love that he. He rightfully deserves.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. And I would be. Of course I know some of these songs, but it's like I would. You know, R B is not a genre of music that I'm personally seeking out a lot. And so I. I understand the importance of this album, but I would love to, like, talk about it in this exercise and, you know, give myself an assignment. So we're on the same page. Let's do it. All right, so cultural exchange will just.

[Charles Holmes]

Be just like, let's just do voodoo One album. We'll just have like a nice little.

[Cole Kushna]

Like, chat about it.

[Charles Holmes]

Cuz I literally was going to give it to you because I'm just like, no, no, no, no. This is a perfect pairing. But I also just kind of want to listen to this.

[Cole Kushna]

And then also teases next episode. A little R and B.

[Charles Holmes]

Hell yeah. Thanks, guys.