'WOLF' & 'CHERRY BOMB' | Last Song Standing (E2)

Summary

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Dissect: Last Song Standing – Tyler, The Creator’s ‘WOLF’ & ‘CHERRY BOMB’

Season 5, Episode 2 – July 7, 2026
Host: Cole Kushna
Guest Co-Host: Charles Holmes

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Episode Overview

In this double-feature episode, Cole and Charles continue their “Last Song Standing” journey through Tyler, The Creator’s discography, rigorously debating and dissecting 2013’s Wolf and 2015’s Cherry Bomb. Their goal: to select the definitive tracks from each album for inclusion in the final “Royal Rumble” at season’s end, ultimately crowning Tyler’s greatest song. Along the way, they unpack album concepts, thematic evolution, production growth, artist influences, and the significance of risk and experimentation in Tyler’s work.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Where We Left Off & Setting the Stakes

• Recap: Cole and Charles recap their picks from Bastard and Goblin, noting how Tyler’s early best tracks are obvious due to their stand-out quality among less refined material.
• Season Format Reminder:
  “Both of us are going to nominate two songs each... at the end of the episode, we’re both going to have one pick from Wolf, one from Cherry Bomb that we are going to take into the Royal Rumble.” – Charles Holmes (06:40)
• The Stakes: At season’s end, all chosen songs will compete to crown the “last song standing" from Tyler's entire discography.

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2. Tyler’s Growth as Producer & Artist Identity

• Rapid Evolution:
  “Even on Wolf, how much better he becomes as a producer and a rapper very, very quickly. Then with something like Cherry Bomb, you’re like, okay, this is the experimental one.” – Charles Holmes (02:51)
• Comparative Lens: The hosts compare Tyler’s self-production journey to J. Cole's, emphasizing how Tyler developed a unique sonic identity where influences (notably The Neptunes/Pharrell) gradually give way to a singular Tyler sound.
• Singular Vision:
  “Usually they are very early on wearing the influences on their sleeve and by the time they get to their mature work... they sound singular.” – Cole Kushna (06:23)

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3. ‘Wolf’ – Narrative, Themes & Album Maturity

Concept Breakdown:

• Wolf is positioned as the "middle" installment of Tyler’s early trilogy (with Goblin as the conclusion), set at Camp Flog Gnaw and revolving around three core characters: Wolf (protagonist/Tyler), Sam (antagonist), and Salem (love interest).
• Narrative Clarity?
  “...the flaw of the concept...does it add to, is it meaningful in any way at the end of the day? And for me, it doesn’t add any kind of resonance to the emotional storytelling or anything conceptual.” – Cole (11:57)
• Growth and Refined Production:
  Both hosts feel Wolf marks a leap in songwriting, structure, and listenability compared to Tyler’s earlier work.
• Tyler’s struggle with narrative consistency:
  “The Wolf Haley character is just Tyler, the creator, a lot of times...I see what you’re going for, but it doesn’t always [commit].” – Charles (10:21)
• Wolf as a Transitional Album:
  Described as a midpoint, featuring more polished production, but still some bloat and lack of refined, cohesive vision compared to Flower Boy.

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4. TRIVIA: “Quiz Me If You Get Lost” Segment

(Starts ~15:06)
Cole and Charles quiz each other on relatively deep Tyler-related trivia for a “first pick advantage.” Sample highlights:

• The meaning of Camp Flog Gnaw (“Wolf Gang” backward) – 16:12
• Kanye almost appearing on "IFHY" and "48" – 18:10
• Use of live strings on “2Seater” recorded in Hans Zimmer’s studio – 19:01
• "Death Camp" almost included in Mad Max: Fury Road – 20:18
• “Smuckers” beat originally intended for Watch the Throne – 21:50

Fun Moment:
“That’s crazy to reject two Kanye features on your third album.” – Cole (17:36)

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5. Wolf – Track Nominations & Song Debates

Begins ~24:21

Charles’s Picks:

• "48" – Praised for ambitious storytelling, Frank Ocean’s chemistry, attempts at political/cultural commentary, and melodic strength, even if lyrically "clunky."

  “It is different from ‘She’ in that I feel like this is a song where Tyler and Frank have better chemistry.” – Charles (25:11)

• "Jamba" / Later “Bimmer” – Chosen for energetic rapping, production inventiveness, and Odd Future camaraderie. Swapped late for “Bimmer” due to fan significance.

  “You can see that – I’m like, oh, he’s thinking in three dimensions with his production.” – Charles (37:10)

Cole’s Picks:

• "Answer" – Chosen for its mature, autobiographical songwriting (addressing absent father, grief, loneliness) and musical sophistication.

  “Three verses, all told from different perspectives...It coalesces everything very, very cleanly in a very well-produced, well-put-together song.” – Cole (29:55)

• "IFHY" – Selected as an early example of Tyler authentically tackling romantic confusion, with complex and beautiful production, and a notable Pharrell feature.

  “Maybe the record itself on the album doesn’t quite do it its own justice...maybe the record actually means more live.” – Cole (41:32)

Disagreements:

• Charles is unconvinced by emotional cuts like “Answer” and “IFHY,” preferring playful, rambunctious tracks reflecting early Tyler’s group energy. Cole values moments where Tyler explores vulnerability and pushes harmonic ambition.
• Both give "Bimmer", "Rusty", and "Molly" honorable mentions, noting the challenge of picking from a now-rich tracklist.

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6. ‘Cherry Bomb’ – A Sonic Turning Point

(Begins ~46:21)

Context & Themes:

• A “Fracturing” Era:
  “Post Wolf is the fragmentation of Odd Future as a collective.” – Cole (46:47)

• No Clear Concept:
  The album’s motif of “finding your wings” aligns with Tyler’s quest for independence and growth, shifting from group identity to personal artistry.

• Unapologetic Experimentation:
  Tyler pushes production diversity, mixes genres (jazz, punk, soul, hip hop), and deliberately prioritizes adventurous sounds over polished song structure.

  “If you try to describe what it is, you can’t really do it...” – Cole (52:17) “I would rather listen to a Cherry Bomb over a Flower Boy because I just love a record that is messy.” – Charles (50:29)

• Critical Reception:
  Cherry Bomb is widely regarded as Tyler’s most controversial, least commercially successful, yet artistically crucial project.

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7. Cherry Bomb – Track Nominations & Song Debates

Begins ~58:31

Cole’s Picks:

• "Cherry Bomb" (title track) – Goes all in on the wall-of-distortion as a sonic statement, its jarring design placing Tyler at the bleeding edge of audacious production.

  “If you’re going to experiment...this is the kind of shit I want to hear.” – Cole (60:16)

• Strong Honorable Mention:
  "Find Your Wings" for its sheer beauty, but dismissed as too much of an interlude to be the lasting pick.

Charles’s Picks:

• "Buffalo" – Hailed for Tyler’s aggressive, witty rapping and bold repurposing of the same sample as Pusha T’s “Numbers on the Board.” Links it to “Yonkers” as a spiritual successor.

  “Once again, I love when Tyler is rapping.” – Charles (67:58)

• "Smuckers" – Picked for its symbolic “full-circle” moment: Tyler besting his idols (Kanye and Wayne) on a beat originally for Watch the Throne, validating his ascent as an A-list artist.

  “It’s the moment where he goes from looking up to his idols to standing with them.” – Charles (81:04)

• Honorable Mentions:
  "Death Camp" for its N.E.R.D. homage and impact, "Two Seater," and "Okaga, CA" for closing the record with emotional resonance.

Contention:

• “Fucking Young/Perfect” – Despite acknowledging its controversial subject (Tyler’s love-lorn narrative about a 17-year-old), both agree the track is a stunning moment of songwriting and production maturation, showcasing Tyler’s new vulnerability.

  “More than any other song up until this point of his career, this is fully formed Tyler...this is him at his most ambitious texturally.” – Cole (71:51)

• Debate on “Find Your Wings,” “Keep Da O’s,” and “Brown Stains” and whether Tyler ever truly gels with Pharrell like he does with Charlie Wilson or his Odd Future peers.

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8. Reflecting on Tyler’s Evolution and Artistry

• Risk & Artistic Courage:
  “You need a record like Cherry Bomb to almost jolt the system so your fans on the next record are like, well, if I’m gonna be along for the Tyler ride...I have to get comfortable with the fact that he’s always moving.” – Charles (56:39)
• Comparison to Eminem’s Artistic Stagnancy:
  Cherry Bomb’s wild swings contrast with other artists' reluctance to change, underlining Tyler’s refusal to stagnate.
• Experimentation vs. Structure:
  The hosts discuss how structure (or lack thereof) defines the risk and reward of Cherry Bomb, often to the album’s benefit and detriment alike.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You can see on this song, Tyler moving from Wes Craven to Wes Anderson.” – Charles on “Jamba” (38:42)
• “All great artists end up doing that. The influences kind of fade and shed...the sound becomes so singular…” – Cole (06:23)
• “Smuckers is the moment where he goes from looking up to his idols to standing with them.” – Charles (81:04)
• “Cherry Bomb is so important because the Wolf trilogy is improvements, but he’s rapping about kind of the same shit.” – Charles (56:39)
• On “Fucking Young”:
  “More than any other song up until this point of his career, this is fully formed Tyler...” – Cole (71:51)
• Fun Banter: Charles repeatedly insisting he prefers energetic, irreverent Tyler (“I just love like Tyler just being fucking just a kook and jumping around and just rapping his ass off and just playing with his friends.” – 45:03)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:14] – Episode purpose & series structure
• [03:11] – Tyler’s youth & production journey
• [05:21] – Comparing Tyler’s and J. Cole’s producer path
• [08:45] – Wolf concept breakdown, narrative arc
• [15:06] – “Quiz Me If You Get Lost” trivia game
• [24:21] – “Wolf” song nominations & debates
• [46:21] – “Cherry Bomb” context & themes
• [58:31] – “Cherry Bomb” song nominations & debates
• [73:41] – Controversy and artistry around “Fucking Young”
• [81:04] – The symbolic importance of “Smuckers”
• [91:19] – Final picks for “Wolf” and “Cherry Bomb”
• [93:05] – Cultural Exchange: Cole shares old band track, Charles shares Miyazaki doc
• [98:57] – Next week’s picks: Flower Boy deep dive preview

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Final Royal Rumble Picks This Episode

Charles:

• Wolf – “Bimmer”
• Cherry Bomb – “Buffalo”

Cole:

• Wolf – “Answer”
• Cherry Bomb – “Cherry Bomb” (title track)

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Language & Tone

• Playful, knowledgeable, irreverent, and candid.
• Cole brings musicological depth and admires Tyler’s willingness to be emotionally vulnerable.
• Charles favors Tyler’s energy and wit, often skeptical of early “sincere” Tyler but values the group dynamic and technical improvement.

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Preview / What’s Next

• The next episode will “clear out” for Flower Boy, signaling the show’s transition from Tyler’s formative, experimental years to his refined, critically-lauded mature work. Expect continued debate as Charles finally revisits Flower Boy for the first time in years, and both hosts anticipate shifting their criteria for what represents “the best” of Tyler.

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This episode delivers an exhaustive, passionate, and sometimes contentious exploration of two pivotal Tyler, The Creator albums, highlighting his progression from shock jock prodigy to self-assured auteur. The hosts’ conflicting tastes and thoughtful analysis create a rich portrait of why these records endure—and why Tyler is a generational artist with no intentions of standing still.

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Transcript

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

Foreign.

[Cole Kushna]

Welcome, everyone, to Last Song Standing. I'm Cole Kushna.

[Charles Holmes]

And I'm Charles Holmes. And in this fifth season of Last Song Standing, we're debating our way through all of Wolf Haley's discography in order to crown the greatest Tala, the creator song of all time.

[Cole Kushna]

Last episode, we covered Tyler's first two projects, Bastard and Goblin. Today, another double episode, 2013's Wolf and 2015's Cherry Bomb.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

Mama got the rover with the rain she don't ever, ever gotta struggle

[Charles Holmes]

all right. Yo, Cole, how are you doing?

[Cole Kushna]

I'm doing great, Charles. Thanks for asking.

[Charles Holmes]

Honestly, I could not be doing worse. This is gonna be so dated by the time this comes out. But I saw a very challenging movie.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

And then I walked out to see a score of a basketball game, and my. Oh, my heart dropped.

[Cole Kushna]

It's okay. You guys are doing all right. At the time of recording, 2:1 Knicks. So by the time this is out, I think the finals might be over.

[Charles Holmes]

But, yeah, so people will be like, in the future, it'll be like, either like, don't worry, Charles. It all gets better, or they're just like, the Knicks will always break your heart.

[Cole Kushna]

Well, I'm a Sacramento Kings fan, so I don't have too much sympathy for you. Okay, last episode, Bastard. Goblin.

[Charles Holmes]

Yep.

[Cole Kushna]

You want to remind the listeners your last long standings from those albums.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah. So for Bastard, I picked French, and then from Goblin, I picked Yonkers.

[Cole Kushna]

I went for Bastard, I went title track, of course. And then for Goblin, I went she. Are you feeling good about the list?

[Charles Holmes]

I'm feeling good about the list so far because even the biggest, odd future stans the standout tracks, honestly, from those two projects. And these next two, I think, are very, very obvious. Sometimes we like to sneak in maybe a fan favorite or a deep cut. But for Tyler, it's kind of very

[Cole Kushna]

obvious what the good songs are in the early catalog. That's kind of why we're doing double episodes for this early work.

[Charles Holmes]

Yep.

[Cole Kushna]

But today I'm really excited because I think both of these projects are. I wouldn't say top tier Tyler, but we're getting there.

[Charles Holmes]

We are ramping up. And it's funny because once you know it, when you look at all the dates. But it is funny where you're just like, yes. In the same way that Drake almost drops every year, every other year. So does Tyler. I think he takes, like, what, a year and a half? Two years?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. Every two years, pretty much on the dot.

[Charles Holmes]

So it is very interesting seeing the progression of Just like, even on Wolf, how much better he becomes as a producer and a rapper very, very quickly. Then with something like Cherry Bomb, you're like, okay, this is the experimental one. Kids evolve very fast. The teens. The teens have a very. Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

You also Forget Tyler is 20, 21, 22 when he's making these albums, which.

[Charles Holmes]

Because when for fucking young, he was on Genius. And they'll have, like, questions at the bottom. And one of the questions was, how old was Tyler? Like, 24. And that's what I was like.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

Oh.

[Charles Holmes]

Even when people were listening to this, they were just like, let's check when Tyler was born.

[Cole Kushna]

Well, yeah, I mean, that's. We'll talk probably talk about a little bit later. But I don't think Tyler gets enough credit for self producing every single one of his projects from day one. And, I mean, that's a large learning curve. Especially when he got, you know, he blew up relatively pretty young only a few years after he started making music. Like, that's a tall task to produce, self produce every single track of these 20 plus track albums. And so, like we talked about last episode, the coolest thing is we do see the incremental evolution. And I think Wolf, which we'll get into right after this break, is the first jump. It's the first, like, couple clicks, you know, from Bastard to Goblin to me, those two albums kind of mushed together.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

Wolf feels like it stands on its own really quick.

[Charles Holmes]

Why do you think, for most people, we forgive Tyler for doing something that, like a rapper who was just a few years his senior, J. Cole, does, which is produce all of his own music, where it's like, to me, both J. Cole and Tyler, their beats start off very amateurish, where you'll have one or two songs where it's just like, oh, I can see that there's something here. But as Tyler progresses, I end up like that he produces all of his music. And when I listen to someone like J. Cole, I'm like, damn, I wish he would rap over someone else's production. What do you think that is? Because I think that is the general consensus in the marketplace.

[Cole Kushna]

I mean, not to make this, you know, negative about J. Cole, but, like, what is J. Cole's signature sound? Can you hear it in your head? Kind of, but not really.

[Charles Holmes]

It almost sounds like Kanye is to J. Cole what Pharrell is to Tyler. But where Tyler spends the bulk of his career almost like, I'm influenced by Pharrell. Neptune's, Neptune's, Neptune's. And then getting to a Point where he's starting to build a foundation of. No, this is a Tyler beat. I can tell where you're pulling from, but to your. Like, this is a world.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

J. Cole's production never feels like a world to me.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. And I think that just to make it more about Tyler, I think that's what we talked about last episode a little bit, which is like a singular vision from day one that was only more and more refined and evolved. Where the influences, as all great artists end up doing as they age, the influences kind of fade and shed to where you get. The influences are still there, but the sound becomes so singular that you kind of forget, oh, yeah, he was really inspired by the Neptune's. Even though you can kind of maybe point to a drum beat and say, oh, yeah, that's a little bit, you know, Pharrell.

[Charles Holmes]

Ish.

[Cole Kushna]

I think all great artists end up doing that. You can go through history and study the great artists and usually they are very early on wearing the influences on their sleeve and by the time they get to their mature work, which I think Wolf begins to get there, they sound singular. So.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, so before. Before we get into Wolf, let's remind the listeners about the whole premise of Last Song Standing as a project. So, Cole, you and me, we go through an artist's entire discography for this episode. Obviously we're doing Wolf, Cherry Bomb. Both of us are going to nominate two songs each. And then at the end of the episode, we're both going to have one pick from Wolf, one pick from Cherry Bomb that we are going to take into the Royal Rumble. And at the end of the season, all of these songs will duke it out until we can crown the last song Standing.

[Cole Kushna]

Beautiful. Quick break and we'll be back to talk Wolf.

[Charles Holmes]

Hell yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

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[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

But now my balls, balls deep in its bra's jaw. Swallow girl, it's just nud. Knock, knock. Meek Mr. Cluster drop. Have a goddamn seizure.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, so we're back. We're talking about Wolf. Wolf is Tyler's third album released on April 2, 2013. The 18 song project features Earl Frank Ocean, Haji Beats, Pharrell, Erykah Badu, among others. And the project debuted at number three on the Billboard 200, selling 89,000 copies. And in its first week, with that all being said, can you explain to people the concept and the themes of Wolf? Because going back to the project and then reading, like, Tyler is not one of the only artists. But it's funny that, like, Odd Future can have a wiki, because he has fans that have very. Have done a very good job of not only breaking down the aliases, but how all the aliases kind of come together on this project to tell a story.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. So this is Wolf is where you get the final part of the Wolf trilogy. And this is. It kind of comes together because there's a world in which you can interpret Goblin coming right after Bastard. But once Wolf, you understand the story of Wolf, you understand that Wolf actually is the second part of the story. And Goblin, as we talked about last episode, is the final part. So Wolf is about essentially three main characters. So you have Wolf being the protagonist, essentially. Tyler, you have Sam being the antagonist, this kind of camp bully, essentially. And then you have this girl Salem, who Sam has a history with, and that Wolf ends up falling for at this camp, Flognaw Camp. So it takes place in this camp. We hear Dr. TC, and you realize, if you're putting it together narratively, you realize that Dr. TC sent Tyler to this camp for troubled kids after the first session of Bastard.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

And then after the events of Wolf, he gets sent to this insane asylum. Like we talked about last episode for Goblin. I mean, the story is pretty simple. The setting, I think, is the most interesting part of that takes place at Camp Flogna. And you hear Sam and Wolf at odds, fighting over this girl. Sam ends up killing Earl's sweatshirt on the song. Rusty.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

Goes looking for Tyler Wolf to kill him. Wolf and. And Salem end up, like, having a little bit of intimacy, and then they fall out. It all kind of doesn't really go anywhere.

[Charles Holmes]

I was going to ask you about this because I had remembered kind of like that there was this story when I was listening to this album back then. And as a more fully formed adult now, I think I was in. I definitely was in college. Cause I got tickets to this tour and then I sold them. But does the story work across this trilogy? I would say no. Where it is, to me, Tyler had the sketches of the story, but he never commits. And because the Wolf Haley character is just Tyler, the creator, a lot of times he is rapping about shit that is happening to Tyler. The Creator, the rapper in the real world, but as Wolfe. So it's like. It's. I'm like, oh, Tyler's just rapping about his experiences. I'm like, oh, no. Technically, this is supposed to fold into a story. So it doesn't always. Like, people have compared Colossus to Eminem, Stan, but it doesn't necessarily have. It doesn't do what Stan does. Because I'm like, well, this is supposed to be about a character, right?

[Cole Kushna]

Right, Right. Yeah. I mean, that's the flaw of the concept. And there's also just a lot of characters to keep track of. You know, on Goblin, there's Tron, Cat, and Ace, and there's all these. It's a whole cast of characters, and it is a little piecemeal in terms of, like. I mean, fans do have fun trying to piece it all together, but it is kind of that thing where it's like. Because it doesn't. Because it's all kind of blurry. You can stare at it forever and try to figure it out. But is there really anything to figure out?

[Charles Holmes]

Yes. I mean.

[Cole Kushna]

I mean, they're kind of. There is. There is a general arc, but, like, does it add to. Is it meaningful in any way at the end of the day? And for me, it doesn't add any kind of resonance to the emotional storytelling or anything conceptual. It doesn't really end up landing. So I think it's interesting, looking back to say, hey, Tyler was building concept records from day one, but like everything else about his early music, not quite there, but we can see where he's going. And these are. We're just seeing him learning in real time. You know, I don't think we get a clean concept of Flower Boy or Igor without these first drafts. So I think it's interesting to look back on. But to answer your question, I don't know. Does it really work? Maybe not.

[Charles Holmes]

What are your thoughts, though, holistically, about this album? Because this episode was a lot easier to do than the Bastard and Goblin episode. Because I have more affection for Bastard and Goblin just because that was the start I was there. Whether I love or hate some of the music, I just find it endlessly fascinating. And I think I have the opposite on this episode, where these albums are way easier to listen to. They're way more interesting. The production is better. The rapping, everything is better. But they do feel like the. I don't know if I want to say the midpoint of Tyler's career, but they do feel like, in some ways, an affirmation of who he is, but also like him not fully understanding where he's going to go yet. He's still figuring it out.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, I think you see, I mean, we'll talk about Cherry Bomb in a bit, but you know, on that you can hear pieces of Igor, you can hear pieces of Flower Boy very distinctly in certain sections of that record. And as polished as those albums are from start to finish, I think what's missing from Wolf and Cherry Bomb, while they're great in moments and even entire songs, they still are both a little bloated in my opinion. Especially Wolf, where he's not able to kind of carry like Flower Boy from start to finish. To me is kind of a perfect Tyler the Creator album. That is something you can hit, play on from track one and just let it go. Where with both Wolf and Cherry Bomb, for me, he's not quite there yet. The refinement's not there, the vision is there. And you get really great moments of brilliance, which we'll talk about when we get to the nominations. But he's still not quite able to piece it all together. Yeah, but he's close. He's getting very close.

[Charles Holmes]

He's getting close. And it's having distance from all of these records and then listening to them. I haven't listened to Flower Boy yet. I've very much been like, no, you're gonna listen to these in chunks. Because I want to have the feeling of a listener of like seeing the growth in real time. And yeah, I'm excited to get to like Flower Boy and Igor. Call me if you get lost. Because I'm like, I already know that he figures it out, but I'm interested to figure out like, oh, how does it happen?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

But now it is time to transition into one of our most contentious categories or sections, Trivia.

[Cole Kushna]

We named it Quiz Me if youf Get Lost.

[Charles Holmes]

Quiz Me if youf Get Lost. Good name.

[Cole Kushna]

I think it's pretty good. We absolutely failed last episode. Both went over.

[Charles Holmes]

So I have some softballs in here this time I like.

[Cole Kushna]

Me too.

[Charles Holmes]

Who wants to go first?

[Cole Kushna]

Well, let's just for the listeners that don't know, I think everyone probably knows at this point, but we're going to try to stump each other with little known facts. Whoever gets the most right will have first choice at the end of the episode for our last long standings. And then we're going to take a season long tally. Whoever has the most questions right at the end of the season will get a mystery prize by one. Justin Sales Producer.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

You Guys are making this really easy for me so far this year.

[Charles Holmes]

What.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

What happens if. If nobody gets a single point?

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

What?

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

What?

[Charles Holmes]

I am afraid that.

[Cole Kushna]

That I think we just get fired at that point.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

I. I have faith that you guys are gonna right the ship this.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, I'll go first. I'm gonna go first.

[Charles Holmes]

Give me a softball.

[Cole Kushna]

This is a softball. Okay. What is the meaning of the name Camp Flogna. And maybe meaning is not even, like, the right word. How did Tyler come up with that?

[Charles Holmes]

Once again, something I read and have no recollection. I'm not even gonna guess.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, just think about the words. Flognaw. What does that structurally kind of look like?

[Charles Holmes]

Well. Oh, Flognaw Gulfway.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Oh, yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

It's just that simple.

[Charles Holmes]

Oh, I thought I was like. I was like. Is there some, like, hidden meaning that. I don't know. It's. Wolfgang misspelled.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. Or backwards. Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Hell, yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

I'm gonna give it to you.

[Charles Holmes]

That was a super easy one.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. Justin, was that too easy?

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

Sometimes, you know, like, if you're missing all your shots, you just need to get in the free throw. Lamb.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

Right?

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

He's gonna get it going. So.

[Charles Holmes]

Okay, this one I think you'll get. This is super easy. Tyler claimed that Kanye wanted to be on two songs off of Wolf. What were those songs? Oh, not easy.

[Cole Kushna]

No, I didn't read this, actually, because off of Wolf. So he played. Do you know if he, like, played in the beat and then.

[Charles Holmes]

No, he played him the songs at this time, him and Kanye were. He was calling. He was like. I was calling Kanye like, once a week just to talk about art and music. And he had played him these songs, and he's like, kanye was not right for them.

[Cole Kushna]

Well, that one. That's crazy to reject two Kanye features on your third album.

[Charles Holmes]

For real. All right, so I will say.

[Cole Kushna]

Well, let me just try to guess.

[Charles Holmes]

Okay. And then I'll give you a hint if you can't get it.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. Jamba.

[Charles Holmes]

No.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. Just trying to think which ones would appeal to Kanye at that time. Can you give me a hint?

[Charles Holmes]

One of the songs already in its final form had a legend on it of equal Kanye stature.

[Cole Kushna]

Ifhy.

[Charles Holmes]

Yep.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

You got a half point.

[Cole Kushna]

Half point. And then.

[Charles Holmes]

And then I liked.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

For a hint. Tyler is reaching. This is a song that Tyler makes that I like off this album, and he is reaching for something societal on it.

[Cole Kushna]

Something societal?

[Charles Holmes]

Yes. He's going out of his normal, like, comfort zone lyrically.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, 48.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

Sick.

[Charles Holmes]

Hell, yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

All Right.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

Okay.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

I was actually surprised when I looked. I was like, that's closer than two. All right.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, I'll take it. We're getting up to speed. We're getting on the freeway. Okay. We're ramping up this one. You might get. Tyler used a live string section for the first time on Cherry Bomb's two seater. In whose studio did he record those strings?

[Charles Holmes]

Hans Zimmer.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Fuck yes. Fuck yes. Hell yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

I think that's a legit question.

[Charles Holmes]

That's good, Justin.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

That's a really good one.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

No. Cause here's the thing. I read that today. I was like, no, I'm studying.

[Cole Kushna]

It's pretty sick. If you have time. Anyone out there listening? If you go back to the Cherry Bomb documentary, It's like a 45 minute making of documentary. And you see him in the studio. Actually, let's play the clip here for people at home. But you see him for the first time sitting with the string section and hearing the chord that he wrote being played by live strings in front of him. And you could see his face just so fucking happy.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

Like, it's so cool to see it. And then like a few minutes later, it shows him and Hans Zimmer meeting. And he said that Hans Zimmer, like, gave him the nod of approval for his arrangement, which is so sick for Tyler, especially at that time, at that age on Cherry Bomb, when he's trying to, you know, he's trying all these things for the first time. It's. It's a really cool moment.

[Charles Holmes]

And you get to see how that I can guarantee that moment inspires him to kind of like push the envelope on successive albums. Hell yeah. All right, so this one, I think this is going to be a softball. And you can, if you don't know it. I feel like Justin can help you out.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

Tyler wanted Death Camp in what popular action movie from 2015?

[Cole Kushna]

2015, action.

[Charles Holmes]

Sci fi has gone on to be one of the most critically. I would say it's probably one of the most important movies of the 21st century. Legendary director. I will say this is for the bro. Like, this is like when everybody saw this movie, it instantly went in the pantheon.

[Cole Kushna]

Am I allowed to just look up popular films from 2015?

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

I know what it is. It makes a lot of sense too.

[Charles Holmes]

If you hear it. Yeah. Go to popular. Cause you'll be like, what movie out of these would Tyler wanted Death Camp to be in?

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, popular films.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

You said it's for the bros. Can I give a hint?

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

Might be A little for the ladies.

[Cole Kushna]

Mad Max Fury Road.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

First try, baby. I just needed the right list. But, yeah, that makes a ton of sense.

[Charles Holmes]

It makes a ton of sense. But that song should not. Here's the thing. I get why Tyler wanted it in Bad Max Fury Road. As someone who's seen Bad Max Fury Road, Tyler Werewood.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

Well, you got the guy on the front of the, like, the War Machine playing the guitar.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

And if he played Death Camp, I would have turned the fucking. As someone who likes Death Camp, who likes Nerd. But no.

[Cole Kushna]

All right. You're probably gonna get this one. But for those that don't know, it'll be interesting. What beat off of Cherry Bomb was originally intended for Watch the Throne.

[Charles Holmes]

Oh, I know this one.

[Cole Kushna]

Don't overthink it.

[Charles Holmes]

I'm not overthinking it. Because Tyler. Tyler took it back.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Because he's like this.

[Cole Kushna]

I want this.

[Charles Holmes]

But he did say it was Smuckers.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Which is the first.

[Cole Kushna]

The first half of Smuckers.

[Charles Holmes]

That's what I love about Tyler at this point, where it's like, he is so. Because Tyler, like, he's. He's been like. I think he said it in the. The DJ drama interview that just dropped about, like, Jay Z, like, wanting to sign Future early on and was like, no, I kind of want to do stuff myself and design everything and have control.

[Cole Kushna]

So sick.

[Charles Holmes]

And that's what I think makes him such a, like, singular artist. Because how many. If we're talking about the blog era that preceded Tyler and was the reason he was like, yo, fuck nah, right? Or two dope boys. When you think of, like, a Wale, he takes the Jay Z Roc Nation branch and goes on tour. J. Cole ends up signing with him. There are so many artists that look up to Jay Z that they would die for, like, Kanye and Jay to rap. And Ty was like, fuck it. This is my world. I'm gonna do it my way.

[Cole Kushna]

I don't know. Is the right choice. Odd Future and Roc Nation. Just

[Charles Holmes]

terrible. All right, so this one just makes me laugh. What's the name of the wrestler that Tyler plays in the Damo 23 video? I don't know this, but Fooky Bookie, I was rewatching, and I was like, okay, Tyler was funny. Tyler was funny. They just keep young Fooky Booky. Hell yeah. All right, yo, I. I feel like we acquitted ourselves, like. Yeah, yeah, we came back strong.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. But technically, you win three out of three. I went two for three.

[Charles Holmes]

So that means that there are Maybe we should, because every single time, we forget who's in the league. But for right now, it's 3, 2, 3, 2. Hell, yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

Well, Kevin will be our official producer. Kevin will.

[Charles Holmes]

All right. Yeah, we are. We got some on the board. I'm feeling good. So maybe now it's time for a really quick break. And then when we get back, it's time for nominations with Wolf.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

The fuck is all this noise about? I even consider picking up smoke. Yeah, but I'm not gay, so it's awkward. Now I'm grouchy like Oscar after spilling some shit on his newest pair, Based Doctors. My best friend's an inhaler. Cause it will not let me cough Whenever I me, I'm from the slums Niggas who push a ton, ton of jokes.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, we are back. We are nominating songs from Wolf. Who wants to go first?

[Cole Kushna]

Do you have a preference?

[Charles Holmes]

I can start.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. Start us off, because I'm interested where you're gonna go. Not like last episode where I feel like there was really only, you know, a couple to choose from. Wolf, I feel like, has a wide palette of acceptable songs, so I'm going to pivot.

[Charles Holmes]

I actually did not. I gave you, like, sometimes you talk about, oh, I'm thinking about this. And that made a late stage change. After listening to the album this again this morning, I'm going with 48. 48. 48. 48. 48 dot 48, 48.

[Cole Kushna]

That's okay. I'm glad I'm. I ended up. I wasn't going to pick it. It was. I was so close to picking 48.

[Charles Holmes]

This was on the bubble the entire time. I actually was going to pick Damo 23. I love that record so much. But 48,

[Cole Kushna]

quickly on Domo 23, I like it. It's one of the better songs of that kind of version of Tyler. But he's better than that by wolf. I think 48 is a better representation of where he was as an artist.

[Charles Holmes]

So the reason I didn't pick Damo 23, a record that I really, really like, is I agree with you. And I think to me, in a lot of ways, Wolf sometimes feels like Tyler's Eminem show, where by this time he starts recreating songs. He's gotten better as a producer, but he knows what a Tyler song is and what a silly song. And, like, Eminem, a lot of times comes out with a silly pop song that can kind of, like, whet people's appetite for the album. And to your point, I was like Charles you have such affection for this song because of when it came out. But re listen to the album this morning just to feel like, did you miss anything?

[Cole Kushna]

Right?

[Charles Holmes]

And on that, 48 was the record. I was like, damn. I keep the Frank Tyler hook is great. I think it is different from she in that I feel like this is a song where Tyler and Frank have better chemistry. 48, 48, 48 days I get it in. It's just like. I was like, oh, this is so melodic. And it tells a story of Sam basically kind of going on like a drug run, essentially. It starts with this. Nas, Nas, talking about the crack cocaine epidemic. Here's what I will say about the verses. I love the hook. Tyler is grasping for something that I think is still politically outside of the scope of kind of where he is as an artist.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

Getting warmer on that corner Gotta watch out for them 500 foreigners your mother's a goner I warned you before you supersize my fries with that dollar on 48.

[Charles Holmes]

I find that it's an artist trying to figure. A black artist trying to figure out what he has to say about his blackness, what he has to say about rap. I think it's very interesting that Tyler is trying to connect this in terms of the thematic elements of the record, but there's also kind of some of his beliefs in terms of just, like, drug. Drug dealing, what that means to a black man, what that means to a rapper. And he does not nail it. And it's very, very clunky. But I still find it fascinating that he's still going for it.

[Cole Kushna]

I have the same thoughts. I don't think it works thematically, as. I mean, it's kind of like the rest of the album, where it's, like, getting there, but he hasn't quite nailed the landing all the time. And I think the hook is great. I think it's one of his better hooks in this entire early discography. It is the thing where he is blending his voice with someone else's, which is going to really come up on Cherry Bomb, which lays the foundation for essentially his entire second half of his career. And so you see a lot of the elements of later Tyler coming together on a song like 48. It's also different in that he is rapping from Sam's perspective. So it's a early use of an interesting. Rather than just use a character to talk about killing women or whatever it may be to shock people, this is actually a More like he's trying to say something that's a little bit more Meaningful.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

Again, I agree with you. It doesn't quite. Doesn't quite land it thematically, but, like, yeah, he's going for it. He's getting there.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

You can't blame me, motherfucker for killing your aunties and uncles the hustle and hunger All I wanted was a cheeseburger and a little chain tuck didn't realize this game.

[Cole Kushna]

All right, so should I give you my first nomination? I'm really. I'm proud of that pick, Charles. I'm glad that you picked it over Dama 23. No offense to that song. I'm gonna go. I'm going. Answer.

[Charles Holmes]

This is a fascinating choice because I think Answer is a way better version of Bastard, the title track.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, yeah, yeah, way better.

[Charles Holmes]

But I still prefer Bastard. So, like, pitch me on why you picked Answer.

[Cole Kushna]

So if Wolf is the album where things are really starting to come together in a way that. In a way that Goblin Ambassador just could never do, I think Answer to your point is an assimilation of the same themes that he's been talking about for a couple albums. Abandonment, loneliness, and where those. But expressed way more maturely, you know, in a song that feels like a song. It has a very traditional structure. Solid chorus, three verses, all told from different perspectives of this same theme of Tyler trying to connect with someone and that person not being there for him. So verse one is the classic, my father's not there. I'm calling my father. He doesn't pick up. Verse two is his grandmother who had passed in the making of Wolf, and he described it as his, like, first real death in his life that he had to go through. And then the third one is to Salem. So that. That part fits the narrative of the record. And so you have just. It coalesces everything very, very cleanly in a very well produced, well put together song. Structurally, makes a ton of sense. That doesn't kind of meander like a lot of his early songs do. And so I just think it's like, yeah, if Wolf is the album where things are coalescing, I think Answer is a perfect representative of exactly that in a single song.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

Hey, dad, it's me. Oh, I'm Tyler. I think I beat your son. Sorry I called you the wrong name. See, my.

[Cole Kushna]

Are you a fan of this song?

[Charles Holmes]

No, not at all. Really? Not at all. It is a song that, like, I had to revisit when I came to this, because when I was listening to Wolf, I would skip it. In the same way that Eminem's songs about his mom always leave me wanting. Tyler Songs about his father leave me wanting. Not because they're not interesting, they're fascinating. It is just part of me does not know. I think these are all Tyler's true emotions. I. And that's why I think it's interesting. Sometimes I'm just like. In the same way that his music is taking, like, little leaps in maturity. Sometimes I'm just like, how much of this is the myth making of you? And this is actually. I think his father is the foundational thing that, like, he can rap about, that is. That is relatable. So much of Tyler's music, to me, is not relatable because it is, like, the shock value of him. Like, this is a teenager trying to shock me. And when he's rapping about the abandonment issues of his father, I'm like, oh, this is a kid. This is a teenager or a kid in his early 20s who actually does not know how he feels. And that's why it's like, even as a song, as songs, sometimes they don't necessarily coalesce. For me, the emotions do. Because with every. Every single time he brings up his father on a new record, I'm just like, you can see a man developing a ra time where it goes straight from fuck this, dude, I hate you, to fuck you. But also, why weren't you there? Wait, so you. This is a song that you listen to regularly?

[Cole Kushna]

Not regularly, but off of Wolf. Yeah, it's like. I mean, part of it is just the production itself. Chord progression. Absolutely beautiful. It's the first time we really get, like, a really clean guitar riff, so we have that, like, really nice ascending line. It's a chord progression that is, like, very interesting harmonically and a lot of the early Tyler stuff. The reason why I don't personally connect with it is, like, it breaks my brain as someone that is listening to these chords and the way that they're being used. He does a lot of the early songs. He just doesn't know how to use chords. You can tell the kind of chords he likes. He has really thick, rich chords, but he doesn't like those. Hard. Those are very hard. And he wants to do modulations a la, like, Stevie Wonder, like he wants. He's, you know, he's reaching for pretty ambitiously, harmonically. And a lot of times it's just, like. It just pains my ears, some of the decisions that he makes. But on a song like Answer, he nails it. So if you break down the chord progression, it's super interesting. And you have that guitar line pulling everything together. I Think it's like for me, one of his stronger early productions, which is probably the reason why I personally like it.

[Charles Holmes]

Why do you think Tyler was so, like, reticent to bring in someone to help him translate these ideas? Cause to your point, I think from a production angle, what's both interesting but off putting about early Tyler is the fact that he has a stubbornness where he wants to figure it out. You can tell he's like, no, no, no, no. I want to figure out how to do this. And if it comes out, not like. I don't mean half baked in like all these ideas are, I think even he would probably be like, if he would back. He's like, no, I wouldn't have done it that way. Like, why do you think he had such a stubbornness where he's like, I'm not going to fix it.

[Cole Kushna]

Maybe he didn't think it was broken at that.

[Charles Holmes]

True.

[Cole Kushna]

You know, maybe as even his own perception of his music. Because if you write the chord progression and you put it to wax, I assume you like it.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

You know what I mean? So, like, maybe he was getting close enough to where it was passable to his early ears. But like, I look back on some of my music I made when I was a teenager and I'm just like, I know, I in the moment, I thought that was really fucking cool. But you look back and I'm just like, oh, just. It's like pretty cringy. So. But yeah, I think to wrap it up, Answer epitomizes to me what Wolf is in a single song.

[Charles Holmes]

Hell yeah. So want to go to my next nomination?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, let's go.

[Charles Holmes]

I feel like, you know. You know what it's going to be.

[Cole Kushna]

Do I?

[Charles Holmes]

This is the last time that I will probably utter Haji Beats name because he very quickly just does not. He's not really appearing on subsequent. Does Haji appear on any records after Wolf?

[Cole Kushna]

On Tyler's solo records? I do not think so.

[Charles Holmes]

So I'm gonna go with Jamba, which to me is just like a level up from French. This beat is insane.

[Cole Kushna]

Can I just say, kind of a wasted pick.

[Charles Holmes]

Why?

[Cole Kushna]

Well, sell me on it. But out of all the songs on Wolf, you're going Jamba.

[Charles Holmes]

This is why I'm going with Jamba.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

I'm sick of hacking and coughing. I'm often. It's fucking awesome. I'm Animals, Noah's Ark, and off from this rapping nonsense. Four stories in my home. Like, what the. An apartment.

[Charles Holmes]

So I'm going with Jamba because just Jamba B, like, one of my favorites. I'm sick of hacking and coughing. I'm offing this awesome animal, Noah Arin. All from this rapping nonsense is just great. The. The Damo outro where he's like, yo, never smoke. I laugh every single time I hear it. I think the sense on this are way better than. Than everything that up to that point. Like, there's the burp. There's like a burping kind of like, weird one.

[Cole Kushna]

And then there's like, switches.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah, it switches. And there's like this twinkling, descending. And I'm like, oh, that's a Pharrell move.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

Where is my dick for gratitude?

[Charles Holmes]

The beat is so interesting to me because there's so many layers to it. In our previous episode, you're like, gonkers. Tyler said he made it in like 15 minutes and then you recreated. He was like, yeah. I could see how he did it. Jamba is something where I'm like. I'm not saying it's the most complex beat of all time, but you can see that. I'm like, oh, he's thinking in three dimensions with his production.

[Cole Kushna]

And what I love about that beat specifically is that it's so clean.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

Where I think a lot of the times we'll talk. I'm going to talk about it on Cherry Bomb specifically. But a lot of the early stuff has a lot of elements that sometimes just sound like mush. Like it's not congealing. Right. So it just sounds like a lot. Something like Jamba represents a refinement without losing the ambition that you're talking about in terms of it going places within the verse. And then the. You know, the verse itself has a couple beats or switches instrumentation wise, and then the chorus is its own thing, so it's still ambitious. But you don't. It doesn't overwhelm. It's super clean. And his voice, again, sounds great over this kind of production. I just don't know as a song if it is as strong as the others is my only criticism.

[Charles Holmes]

Hey, with your next nomination, you can. You can make the claim. I think with Jamba at this point, and I think just throughout his career, I just like when Tyler's rapping. I like when Tyler's rapping with his boys. I think Haji's fucking verse on this is incredible. I think even, like, the opening is just like, all the internal rhyme, how fast he's rapping. I'm like, this is. And to me, it's like. It's Tyler's. You can see on this song, Tyler moving from Wes Craven to Wes Anderson, where it's like, I think he was getting tired of the horrorcore people being like, oh, you're horrorcore this and that. And when you listen to Bastard or Goblin, the beats are so, so, like, subterranean and so dark. And I love that, like, he's transitioning to, like, that phase of just, like, what we know Tyler to be now, which is, like, warm and bright and everything is pastel. And on Jamba, you can see that middle rope.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. Okay. You didn't quite sell me on it, but I see where you're coming from.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, what song are you going to pick?

[Cole Kushna]

All right, well, Shout Out. I have, like, this was a difficult exercise for me because there was so many to choose from, so I'm going to give just a few honorable mentions that I was getting close to picking Shout out to Bimmer, the third part of the track 10.

[Charles Holmes]

So I was almost going to pick that song because I know that that's Tyler's thing where it's like. I think it's the 10th song on each album. It's always.

[Cole Kushna]

It's usually double song. This one's a triple.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah. It's always split up in triples or split up. And it's about a woman. And I've always. To this day, Bimmer is one of, like, my favorite Tyler songs. And I'm like, why did you have to like. This should have just been its own thing. It was its own song. I would have picked it.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, I kind of agree there. I think Rusty is really strong. Love Rusty in the same vein as a Jamba, I think just Cypher feeling his verses, however long, it's super long.

[Charles Holmes]

Is it better than Assmoke, though?

[Cole Kushna]

I just laugh every time. Is it better than. I think so.

[Charles Holmes]

Really?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. I mean, there's. I mean, the youthful quality of Asmic was kind of hard to beat, but as the rapping, I think both are rapping better. Shout out to Molly. Fucking so fun. That song is so fun. No. Okay. But I'm gonna land on ifhy.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

I fucking hate you but I love you. I'm bad at keeping my emotions bubble. We're good at being perfect we're good at being troubled.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Now you're going to have to sell

[Cole Kushna]

me on this, admittedly. Okay. So this is. I have an interesting relationship with this song. I didn't understand this song. Yeah. Have you ever seen Tyler live?

[Charles Holmes]

No.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

Actually, that's a lie. I've seen him once. Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. What era?

[Charles Holmes]

Early. Early. I don't even know if Wolf was out.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay? This song live fucking goes the whole fucking crowd arena yelling, I fucking hate you, but I love you. It's one of those songs, it's like what we talked about last episode, where it's like, maybe the record itself on the album doesn't quite do it its own justice. Yeah, this is kind of like that to me. And what I like about this song, that not only for the live aspect of it, it's like we talked about Tyler's ability to make anthems last episode. Usually those anthemic songs were like the Kill People, Burn Shit, Fuck School. The more like, odd future rebellious anthems. But I think what he finds on IFLY is making an anthem that actually expresses something that we all felt when we were kids going through love for the first time, which is, what is this thing? What is this dichotomy of feeling that I fucking hate you, but I love you? Like, you can't condense that feeling any more than those words that he chose for the hook of this song. And I think it perfectly captures something about being 18, 19, 20, and falling in love for the first time, where you're trying to understand why this person has such an effect on you, both the love and the high of it, and they also have the power to bring you to your lowest lows or making the most angry you've ever been in your life. So I think I just love that he was able to capture that in the hook, but also just in the. In the feeling of the song itself. It's kind of reflected in the chord progression, which is also kind of totters on being beautiful and kind of distorted at the same time. So I think while it's not the song that I necessarily want to listen to all the time, I like what it represents about Tyler at this stage of his career. I also think the full circle moment of him bringing Pharrell on this song is kind of beautiful. This guy that he idolized and now is on the same song with him. The second half, and I think the second half of the song, the song structurally is kind of a mess, but the second half of the song, in a vacuum, is very beautiful, where the chords get a little bit more warm and rich, and they have Pharrell kind of just freestyle singing over it. So I don't know. Did I sell you on it?

[Charles Holmes]

No. As someone who likes Igor, the Tyler songs I have the least amount of time for in his early career are songs like she Ifhy. Not because they're bad, just because I think Tyler's so emotionally stunted at this point in his career that these songs is just like. Even back then, I was just like, I see what you're going for, but you're not. Cause, like, he. He loves Boyz II Men. He loves Erykah bad, too. He loves Charlie Wilson. And then it's like a little Goblin Gremlin trying to be like, what if I sing about love? Like, no, no, Troll, get back under the bridge. Talk about burning shit. I don't know. I don't want to hear this from you. Like, no, that's mean.

[Cole Kushna]

Charles.

[Charles Holmes]

What?

[Cole Kushna]

I'm going, yeah. We kind of different on our selections here.

[Charles Holmes]

I'm realizing that in this early phase of Tyler's career, what we both enjoy about him is different. I just love, like, Tyler just being fucking just a kook and jumping around and just rapping his ass off and just playing with his friends. It's a playfulness that, like, he still has to this day. But yeah, it's partially the nostalgia factor.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, that's fair. Okay, so anything else on Wolf? You good?

[Charles Holmes]

Nope. Are we ready to go into Cherry Bomb?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, let's do it. This episode is presented by Sierra Nevada. Life's about embracing the haze. What does that mean? Living in the moment, Seeing where the night takes you. Being up for the adventure. And there's no better way to embrace it than with Hazy Little Thing by Sierra Nevada Hazy, citrusy smooth, Juicy but not sweet. Hoppy but not bitter. America's best selling Hazy ipa for good reason. Hazy little thing. Enjoy responsibly.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

I know some dudes that are fine as a fucking shoot at your Honda, but can you please turn down the lights?

[Charles Holmes]

All right, we're back to talk about Cherry Bomb, Tyler's fourth album released on April 13, 2015. The 13 song project features collaborations with Pharrell, Kanye West, Schoolboy Q, Charlie Wilson, and spawned two singles, Death Camp and Fucking Young Perfect. The album debuted at number four on the Billboard 200, selling 58,000 copies in its first week. All right, yo, break it down. Themes, thoughts. Cherry Bomb.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I think we touched on a little bit earlier, but if Pre Wolf, like, if Post Goblin is the pinnacle of Odd Future as a collective, I think Post Wolf is the fragmentation of Odd Future as a collective. Yeah, you have Earl coming out. Earl is now back and putting out his own record. Frank Ocean is post Channel Orange. At by this point, Sid's got the Internet and so Tyler described that era. And importantly, Tyler goes on tour for Wolf without any odd. You Know, it's not an odd future tour. It's just. It's a solo tour for the first time. And so you have this kind of fracturing of this initial collective happening. And you have Tyler now being more ambitious than ever. Coming off of Wolf as someone who wants to prove himself as a producer specifically, you know, I think a lot of the choices on Cherry Bomb, I think what's conceptually interesting about Cherry Bomb is that it's lack of concept. It's not a concept record in the same way that Wolf was. And I think the concept, although there are motifs and themes I'll talk about in a second, the concept itself, I think, was the production aspect of it. And Tyler trying to build this very diverse world, he said, specifically said he wanted to prove himself as the most diverse producer out. Which kind of explains, sonically, why there's so much going on in this record. From one record to the next,

[Charles Holmes]

there

[Cole Kushna]

is some conceptual elements. You hear, like a radio show, you hear him driving at certain points. But I would say the motif that really stands out, that kind of ties directly into Tyler at this point in his life is this idea of finding your wings. We have the song finding your wings, but at certain points in interludes and on lyrics of other songs, he's talking about finding your wings and flying, which is this metaphor of finding out who you are and ascending through your own individual identity. Which, if you're thinking about Tyler during. I don't know if it was conscious or not, but looking back, it's like, well, okay, he's fracturing away from Odd Future. He is becoming more and more of an independent artist. And Cherry Bomb is a departure from the Wolf trilogy that's kind of behind him. These characters are kind of behind him. He formally kills them off on the albums, but also in the Sam is Dead music video. And Cherry Bomb, in many ways, feels like a fresh start for Tyler, even though it is just two years removed from Wolf. It feels like, for me, it's always the bridge between early Tyler and late Tyler or modern Tyler. So conceptually, what is interesting to me is the lack of concept, you know, which is new for him. I'm curious, so what is your relationship? Do you remember your relationship with Cherry Bomb when it came out versus how you hear it today?

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah, when Cherry Bomb came out, I was in New York. I remember Cherry Bomb coming out at a time where almost Tyler was bigger than ever. But this, obviously, with the sales and maybe even the critical response, it landed with the thud. But I also. I also was just like, Man, I'm happy for the swing, but I did not. I didn't really go back to Wolf or Cherry Bomb that much. But every time I go back to it now and doing research for this and listening to it again, I was like, oh, Cherry Bomb is so fascinating. I think it's. You're gonna kill me for saying this. Maybe once I do my Deep Boy on Flower Boy again, I will change. I think this is a way more interesting album than Flower Boy, even if it's not as successful.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

I think it is.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, saying interesting. I can maybe see where you're coming from.

[Charles Holmes]

We talked about it with Daft Punk. Like, there's a reason why I like a human after all, you know, where. Like, that is something I gravitate towards. And to me, Cherry Bomb is like. I love Death Camp because it's just like. That's just an nerd song. But I'm just like. I like Tyler's version of an nerd song. Smucker's incredible. There are just so many moments on this record where I'm just like. Even if he's not success, it's just fascinating. And it's the la. Not the last time, but it is to me. When Tyler is at his prickliest in terms of just, like, showing his influences so much, and I just miss. I miss the version of Tyler that was this experimental. And when I mean experimental, where it is like, by Flower Boy, by Igor, everything becomes refined every. Like, there. It's. The records aren't as fat anymore. He has more control of his instrument vocally, but also from a production angle. So that's what I mean by, like, I would rather listen to a Cherry Bomb over a Flower Boy. Because I always, like. I always just love a record that is messy.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. I mean, it is messy by design, I would say. You know, Like, Tyler is pretty adamant about. He loves this album, and I think a lot of that was because of the reaction it got. It wasn't. It wasn't, like, universally lauded, but it was also not. I think it was his least critically acclaimed album to that point.

[Charles Holmes]

But for the Heads, for, like, Tyler, the Creator, music critic Heads, I think if you talk to them about Cherry Bomb, they'll always be like, yo, Cherry Bomb was so fucking fascinating, man.

[Cole Kushna]

It is very fascinating. Even if everything doesn't land, for me personally, there are moments of absolute brilliance where the. The pieces fully come together for the first time, where I think the bright moments on Cherry Bomb far outweigh the bright moments on Wolf. Even if I think Wolf might be the more enjoyable record from start to finish. Cherry Bomb is so fascinating in so many ways because you can never really get a grasp on it. If you try to describe what it is, you can't really do it because you go from a song like find you'd wings gorgeous jazz inspired, almost half interlude, just rich melody and harmony. And then right after that, you're into the title track, Cherry Bomb, which is just like a fucking literal wall of distortion where you can barely hear Tyler's voice under the mix and you're just like, what are you supposed to. What are you supposed to do to this?

[Charles Holmes]

But it's so interesting because it's also like, there's rock elements to this, but then there is like, he's going back to the source of just like very hip hop, forward beats. But then to your point, like, all of this, like, distortion in this punk rock ethos, and it just, like, there's so many genres and he's not mastering any of them, but he's not doing it in a way where it's like, for a lot of artists, I think they do their. Like, this is the record when I'm gonna be different. And it's like a rapper picking up a guitar like that. You can't. You can't call this Tyler's rock record. It's not.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, yeah, no.

[Charles Holmes]

But you can't call it a rapping record or like, you can't. You can't. To me, if you're going to be an artist that's going to pivot in this way, I would rather your pivot be this hard to really, like, clamp down on and understand.

[Cole Kushna]

And as a producer, it's the first time. I don't know if it was directly Kanye influence, but it is really the first time he's bringing in outside influence or not influences, actual artists that he loves to contribute to these records in a way that Kanye can bring people together. He wasn't doing that so much on Wolf. Wolf is still very much in the odd future Haji and, you know, these kind of frank and these features. But I don't know, is there even a single odd future feature on Cherry Bomb?

[Charles Holmes]

I. I don't think so, but yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

So instead he's bringing in a singer from Boyz II Men, Charlie Wilson, Roy Ayers. He's bringing in, you know, rock musicians. He's bringing in, you know, just an incredibly eclectic cast of characters that he's. Again, I don't think it always works, but, like, you can see him doing orchestration for the first time. And bringing in a trumpet player for the beginning of Find your Wings. And so I think is easily his most ambitious record to that point. And, I mean, it is inspiring that after all the success that he had with the first three records, Wolf being critically acclaimed, that he's still pushing the envelope personally. And I think it is. I mean, obviously, he said he wants to be the most diverse record producer out there, and he is trying to prove himself on some level, but this is not the traditional way to prove yourself, to make an album this experimental and this. This ambitious.

[Charles Holmes]

And I think I was reading a quote where he was like. I think he. This record is so important to him because I think everybody going, like, no. Or not everybody, but, like, forced him to rethink what he understood about, like, song structure and writing and every. That's what I love. Because there becomes a point as an artist where you become so good that it becomes very, very hard for you to make something amateurish anymore. You just know too much, right? And to me, Cherry Bomb is the last time we really see. Not the last time, but it is where Tyler is going to be this much of an amateur in this realm.

[Cole Kushna]

No, yeah, I know what you mean. And I love the way that he's able to balance his thoughts on this record, because even in a more recent interview, he was saying, I love Cherry Bomb, but I also. I can see what it's missing. And it was missing, like, song structure specifically. And that's the thing, when we get to Flower Boy, is the thing that he studies very, very closely and that he really puts it together structurally with Flower Boy, where you can't really say that with Cherry Bomb.

[Charles Holmes]

And the last thing I will say before we get to nominations, why going back to this record, I loved it so much, is that if you think of the first part or third of Tyler's career, one thing that tripped up an idol like Eminem is that after a while, Eminem just kept making the same record where maybe the rapping would get better or would get worse, but conceptually, he kind of stopped going for it as much. And to me, Cherry Bomb is so important because the Wolf trilogy is improvements, but he's rapping about kind of the same shit. And the beats are getting better and the rhymes are getting better, but it's all coming from the same world, which is important when you're making a trilogy. But if he made another Wolf or Goblin, we wouldn't be talking about Tyler. So you need a record like Cherry Bomb to almost jolt the system so your fans on the Next record are like, well, if I'm gonna be along for the Tyler ride for the foreseeable future, I have to get comfortable with the fact that he's always moving. He's never comfortable. He's always changing. And that, to me, is the difference between. Eminem is a legend. I'm not, like, denigrating anything he did. But I do think that there are some rappers who are just like, I love to rap, I love to make this type of album, and I'm going to kind of be making this album for the rest of my life and for Tyler. Cherry Bomb to me as a representation of, like, I got all that other shit out of my system. Every other album that. Every album that you're going to get from this point on, I'm gonna be a different guy. Not just Alias, but, like, sonically.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Hell yeah. Gonna get to the nominations.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, let's do it. All right.

[Charles Holmes]

Why don't you lead us off?

[Cole Kushna]

All right, so I almost wanna nominate these together as a pair, but I'll start with a. A very strong honorable mention.

[Charles Holmes]

Okay.

[Cole Kushna]

I'm gonna go find you'd Wings featuring Roy Ayers. This song. Well, it's this. My problem with nominating it is it doesn't actually feel like a song. It feels more like a Interlude. Ish. It's more stronger than interlude, but structurally, it's just like. I don't really know what to do with it, but the opening of this song is absolutely gorgeous. Beautiful chords, beautiful horn solo. The way he finds the pocket when the melody comes in. The way that he has Roy or is playing the vibraphone beautifully over this production. Beautiful, beautiful track.

[Charles Holmes]

Yep.

[Cole Kushna]

And the reason why I'm giving a strong honorable mention, because my first nomination is going to be the title track, Cherry Bomb.

[Charles Holmes]

Love Cherry Bomb.

[Cole Kushna]

Which I can only view these two as a pair because of the contrast that I talked about just a second ago, where you go from one of the most beautiful things he has ever done, arguably the most beautiful thing he has ever written to that point in his career, to one of the most abstract. Absolutely. Just sounds like a fucking brick wall.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

Where.

[Cole Kushna]

I don't know. I even asked producer Kevin, because he's a wizard with audio engineering, like how he creates this wall of distortion.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

Which is different than just a distortion on a single instrument. Kevin was saying that he thinks he, like, essentially routed the entire mix through. Through its own distortion bus, which would then essentially distort the entire track. And that's why it feels like a wall. You can punch through or something, you know? And I just love, like, if you're going to experiment, quote unquote, like, this is the kind of shit I. I want to hear. Because I don't know, can you even really think of a song that sounds sonically like this? You hear elements of things, but just like, the overall complete production just sounds like nothing I've ever really heard before.

[Charles Holmes]

I feel like around this time and just. You correct me if I'm wrong, like, Death Grips was also around this. Like, they came a little bit earlier, but they were kind of experimenting with his type of, like, almost more aggressive distortion. In your face.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

Are you Death Grips fan?

[Charles Holmes]

No. I tried, so I tried. You are, though.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

I'm not a Death Grips fan. What is that?

[Cole Kushna]

Sacrament? I'm just gonna say. A gem of Sacramento.

[Charles Holmes]

Death Grips.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Are you a fan of Death Grips? Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

Not like a huge Stan, but I like. I like them. I see. I see the singer riding his bike all the time.

[Charles Holmes]

For real?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

You want to know who I think I saw in pasadena?

[Cole Kushna]

Who?

[Charles Holmes]

Which McCauley? Tame impala.

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, really?

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

Kevin Parker.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah. Does he. He definitely does not live in Pasadena, though.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

Why wouldn't he live in Pasadena?

[Charles Holmes]

Huh?

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

Why? I mean, if he does, I don't know. Maybe we should bleep it out.

[Charles Holmes]

No, because here's the thing. I do this with white musicians all the time where I'm just like, is that so?

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

And so.

[Charles Holmes]

And I'm like, charles, that's just a white man.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

I'm looking at a picture of him now there. Sarah, our engineer over here.

[Cole Kushna]

Do you.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

Do you think that there are just a lot of white dudes in Pasadena that look like that?

[Cole Kushna]

I would say, like, maybe 50 to 60% of the people I've seen in Pasadena like that.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

Yeah, 50 to 60% of the people, Pasadena. The entire population looks like Damon.

[Charles Holmes]

My bad. Let's. The title track. I'm so glad you picked this. Cherry Bomb is fucking fantastic.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. See, I thought you would just come in like, shit on this pig.

[Charles Holmes]

What? No. Why do you think I like Cherry bombs? It's because of stuff like that you picked Jamba. I. All right, I will say it once again. I like when Tyler's rapping. Another when you. Because here's the thing. I was about to get. I'm like, if this boy picks, fine, your wings. I'm pissed off. I'm pissed the fuck off. No. Get that fucking bullshit out of here. But Cherry Bomb. Come on, Banger.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, this brings up a good question about this album in general. What do you think so? This song is the most extreme version of it, but it's also on like Buffalo. He intentionally mixed his voice lower. Yeah, than usual. This one is obviously like the most extreme version of it, but what do you think? That has a lot to do with the perception of the album, how it was received. Just that choice alone, which is because he wanted to show off the production more. So he made his voice secondary, which obviously a lot of people, you know, fans of music, just kind of listen for the voice. Do you think that was detrimental to the album?

[Charles Holmes]

I don't think it helped. But actually going back what I realized it was one of my honorable mentions is gonna be Death Camp, a song that, like, I have a lot of affection for. But when I press play on this album back then I was like, what the fuck is this nonsense? Because it wrong foots you almost where. I'm a fan of Nerd, but we've never really heard Tyler on that type of a rock form forward record. And if you watch the Cherry Bomb documentary, I'm pretty sure that they had to like replay it close to the release, like a couple days before because they couldn't get the sample cleared. I think that's a right. Like where he is in the mix and almost him letting the production be the primary thing is definitely a reason. I think a lot of like, maybe not Fair Weather, but Normie fans were kind of like, whatever. But to me, a song like Death Camp and Cherry Bomb are perfect examples of you could throw this album in the bin as being experimental. If you're not. If you're not like a music nerd. If you're not just kind of just like, if you don't know what Tyler's trying to do on Cherry Bomb or like a Death Camp, it sounds like a failure. And I don't mean that because they're bad songs. It's because what you had come to understand about this artist is not the thing that's in the forefront.

[Cole Kushna]

It's the same thing when people push, press, play it on Yeezus just a few years earlier and they hear this distorted synth forever and they're like, what the fuck is this?

[Charles Holmes]

But the thing that Connie did on Yeezus that Tyler does not do on Cherry Bomb is that Kanye, because he was a producer first and foremost, and he was trying his best to get on as a rapper, Kanye has always been very, very good at song structure. His song structures from, you know, College Dropout on. He's very, very good at verse, hook, bridge, this, that. Where if Cherry Bomb had more traditional song structure. I do think it would be easier for people, like, if find you'd Wings was more of a traditional song. I think people would be like, oh, my gosh, this is one of Tyler's best songs ever. But because it has almost. Almost that long interlude and then it gets to the song people do. What I do is I'm like, all right, Skip Charles.

[Cole Kushna]

All right. Love Cherry Bomb. I love that you love Cherry Bomb, but where are you going with your first nomination?

[Charles Holmes]

All right, so gonna go with Buffalo.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

Goodness gracious. I can't wait to see the look on y' all niggas faces. That boy T nut surprises thoughts isn't checking and okay.

[Cole Kushna]

Another normie pick. Sick.

[Charles Holmes]

Why are we attacking? Why are we attacking me? Why is it.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

Fuck Charles.

[Charles Holmes]

Okay, all right. This is why I'm going to pick Buffalo. Well, both of my picks are going to be super fucking normie piss. This to me, is like a spiritual successor to Yonkers in a lot of ways. Obviously, with the title Buffalo it to me, Tyler is, like, showing, like, how big his guts are. Because I'm like, for him to use the same sample, the Bunny Sigler sample from numbers the board two years. I think it was less than two years later is I was like, oh. I was like, it's not as good as numbers on the board at all, but it is speaking to what to me. Tyler would go on to do really, really well on the DJ Drama mixtape on that, which is just like rapping his ass off. Instead of Bruno Mars, Bob and Haley Williams being in his sights. Now it's about Mountain Dew Boyce Watk. Now, do I think that him replacing the F slur with Book is a great choice? No, it is very lame. But when we get to the line, Peter Parker pick up pack of peppers when the plot think is Tyler the creator, Fucking kill you with a popsicle. Just come on. It's just like. Once again, I love when Tyler is rapping.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

Tickle Peter Parker pick a pack of peppers Wanna plot thick and sound the

[Charles Holmes]

to kill you with a. The things that I will come to love about Tyler as we continue this season will change in terms of just like, his sense of melody gets so much better. And that's when I get reintroduced to him and I'm like, oh, you are a child of Pharrell. Yeah, finally you've arrived. But I picked this song because I was just like. Because originally I was gonna pick Death Camp, but the reason I can't pick Death Camp is because I'm Gonna be honest, as someone who likes Nerd quite a bit, they suffer from the same thing that early Tyler suffers from, which is just like people who like rock but necessarily can't play the instruments. So it's just like. It sounds like a karaoke of fucking rock music. And I think Death camp in a lot of ways can sound like rock music. Karaoke where it's like, buffalo. Just like. I'm like, all right. Hell, yeah. This fucking beat is sick. Tyler's fucking rapping his ass off. Come on. They're not to like.

[Cole Kushna]

That's fine. I like the song, don't get me

[Charles Holmes]

wrong, but you almost pick Find your wings.

[Cole Kushna]

Don't fucking find your wings is beautiful. All right, let me go with my second pick. I'm going to go. Well, I mean, it's kind of a version of find your wings. I'm going fucking young. We're just. We're doing all right.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

Let's do it.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, let's go. You got the floor. Because I will say I was there, dog.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. I was not there. So actually, I'm interested in that. Tell me about that. Or do you want me to make the case first?

[Charles Holmes]

How about we, like, lay the groundwork? Whereas, like, I think Fucking Young is a beautiful song, but even at. In the moment, I think people are like, hey, hey, Tyler, A. Come on. This is about him. I think he was probably like 24, maybe 23 when he recorded it.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, people did the math. It seems to be about Tyler being 23, whatever the feelings were for this girl, being 17 at the time.

[Charles Holmes]

And even at that point, I was like, hey, yo, Tyler, enough is enough, my nigga. God damn. No, no, no.

[Cole Kushna]

It's right on the edge. But the song is.

[Charles Holmes]

No, the song.

[Cole Kushna]

The song is about not pursuing it.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

It's a weird subject for a song.

[Charles Holmes]

It's.

[Cole Kushna]

But the song is about not pursuing it.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, I'll clear out for a minute. I think the reason people have had a problem with Tyler, especially early in his career is you know, is just like, all right, Tyler, we get it. You like blonde little white boys. We get it. Hey, Tyler, you like fucking 17 year olds? Fucking weird, bro. I don't know what to say. There was this Arrested Development thing where it's like, there's that famous saying that you stop growing at the age where you get famous. And as someone who had just like. I had graduated college, I was in New York. I remember listening to this. I'd be with my friends was like, man, get this out of here. And that's why I think, like, Cherry Bomb, so many people were like, yo, fuck this record. Because it. It also. I'm like, dog, you brought in Uncle Charlie for this mess. Come on, bro. Hey, shout out Charlie Wilson. Because, like, they went on to make beautiful music. And that's the thing that I think is so frustrating. The song is tight.

[Cole Kushna]

It's so good. It's so fucking.

[Charles Holmes]

So like, all right. With that being like. Here's the thing, the song is tight. Tyler was being weird, and sometimes Tyler could be a little weird. That's. I had to get off my chest.

[Cole Kushna]

No, that's. I think that's perfectly fair. There's part. There is definitely a part of me that wishes that the song was about something else because I think it could have been like this could. This song feels like it could have been huge to me, but I think there's just a cap on it because of the subject matter. Because, like, I think me personally, more than any other song up until this point of his career, this is fully formed. Tyler, like, this is him at his most ambitious texturally. And, you know, in terms of instrumentation, there's all kinds of instrumentation on this. Guitars, synths, you know, backing, like almost like Doo up style harmonies. And it's like. But it sounds so clean. The production sounds so polished. And he just wasn't able to do that early on. He got it in moments. But this is the entire song. I'm talking specifically about fucking Young. Not so much perfect, but. And then the way this is. I think this is like a light bulb moment for him because his voice, I think it's pitched up a little bit. Then backed with Charlie Wilson, a very strong singer, is like. Sounds like magic. You know, it has this like double hook thing where the pre chorus sounds like the first hook, but then it goes into the actual hook and somehow the actual hook is better than the first hook. And it's just like, to me, like it represents everything Tyler was going for early on. Finally coming together for a full three, four minutes. You know, even like the la. The rapping verse. The verse. I think it's the third verse at the end where his voice is pitched up like that can be from Igor. That sounded quality wise, the same quality of Igor.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

35, I'll be 41 and when I'm 27, you'll be 21. You'll. This is dumb. And when that time comes for that 1 8, I'll probably run. Cause I'm fucking saying Clyde Joe, this is dumb. You should find someone else.

[Cole Kushna]

Where the Chorus of the song sounds quality wise. That could easily put that on a flower boy. And you can't really say that about a lot of his early stuff. You know, you put songs off of Wolf or even songs off some of Cherry Bomb on those other later records, they would stick out. But this is, to me, like fully formed. Tyler finally coming together. And the fact that he is doing this at 23 years old is pretty fucking incredible. You know, putting all this together because it is very ambitious. It's really hard to make all the. Just the. The amount of instruments on this record sound good together. Not just texturally and as like stacked together, but the parts complementing each other. Where again, like a lot of the times where he had multiple parts, multiple synths, the parts themselves just didn't mesh together correctly. So just kind of wash each other out. But the reason, one of the reasons why this song sounds so perfectly polished is every part is complementary and it isn't competing with each other. And. Yeah, I don't know. I think despite the subject matter, I just. It sounds so, so good.

[Charles Holmes]

I mean, even if you take like the subject matter into account, what I think is so interesting about Tyler at this point is I know I said in the previous episode that

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

a lot

[Charles Holmes]

of the early, odd future music, or at least Tyler specific and the sexual politics of it all, yeah, is very incel y. Right. And you get to this point on Cherry Bomb where Tyler makes an interesting choice. Where you go from a rapper who was talking about sex and romance from a place of shock or a place of alienation, or a place of like, a very teenage emotion where it's like, ew, sex, love, romance. That's below me. So for him to get the reason I like this pic is like, for him to get to a moment where he's starting to contend with feelings like love and desire in this way gives him the springboard for the rest of his career where he realizes, which I think the best artists do, you're not above love, you're not above heartbreak, you're not above desire. These are human emotions. And to contend with them is sometimes how the best art gets made. And that's why, yeah, if you want to like, Cherry Bomb, to me is such an important record because it is songs like this where, like, okay, he unlocked something where to me, the knock against Tyler early on is I'm like, you have a problem with being sincere. You almost only can think about sincere. Like, every time you're sincere, it has to end in a joke.

[Cole Kushna]

Exactly. You see that in the interviews too.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes. It's like he gets there and then he just like, ah, psych. You know what I'm saying? And he calls you like, the f. Slur. And I was just like, damn, Tyler. God damn. And to me, I'm glad that you picked this. I couldn't pick this just because I'm just like, bro, sometimes with Tyler, I'm like, it's so difficult if I'm gonna be real. Sometimes I'm like, I don't know if it's as much odd Future broke up because, oh, there was this and there was that or whatever. I'm like, yeah, I could see how Tyler can be a polarizing figure to be around because it's like, can you imagine being Frank Ocean and just chilling there? You like, hey, Tyler, bro, can you chill out? Why are you bringing a 17 year old around? God damn.

[Cole Kushna]

The song's about not bringing her around, Charles.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

A.

[Cole Kushna]

All I know, I can't believe I'm defending.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah, exactly. I don't know how many 17 year olds I was hanging out with when I was 23.

[Cole Kushna]

Well, he wasn't hanging out with her. That's the point. Anyways, okay.

[Charles Holmes]

All right. Time for my nomination.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Charles Holmes]

You're gonna call me a normie again?

[Cole Kushna]

Oh, God. Smuckers.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

Hold your horses. Really thought that he lost it. Like, I bet it at an auction. Been exhausted. I've been working while y' all still smoke like broken exhaust tips.

[Cole Kushna]

You really like this song?

[Charles Holmes]

I wanted to bring it up because if we were talking about full circle moments again.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay. Yeah, Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

I thought it would be an interesting song to bring into this exercise. A. Because the problem with Cherry Bomb, for as much as I love this album, I don't know how many of these songs are making it that far in the royal rumble.

[Cole Kushna]

You gotta play.

[Charles Holmes]

Smuckers is by far the most popular off this. Or young. Like, either or.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, yeah. I'm not sure.

[Charles Holmes]

Maybe.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. Yeah. I think those are the two bigger ones.

[Charles Holmes]

When this came out, I did not enjoy it. Listening back to it for this. Fell in love. And it's so interesting because you find Kanye at Lil Wayne at an interesting moment in their career where they're on the decline and Tyler is on the ascent. And you can tell how proud he is of this beat. He wants to impress everyone. There's a story of Kanye being like, yo, after I heard Wayne and Tyler's verse, I had to go back in and A, the thing I love about this song is all these motherfuckers are trying to stay on top of the beat. Like, all of them are trying their best.

[Cole Kushna]

Kanye's verse kind of.

[Charles Holmes]

I think Kanye has the best verse on this easily. Even if I think Tyler, because he's young, is the best at kind of like, contending with the beat. And it's a moment going back where I was, like, in the same way that you were talking about Tyler, seeing his music come to light, like, bringing in strings, bringing in instruments, and like, being in Ham Zimmer studio working with Charlie Wilson, this being a record where he's like, okay, I'm, like, forecasting. I'm getting the confidence. I'm bringing in other people to help me sing either. Sing these songs. Play on these songs to me. Smucker's. Yes, it is the normie pick. But I picked it because I'm like, this is also a confidence boost for him. A confidence boost where it's like, I can be on a song with two of my idols and not get washed and not get killed. I think Lil Wayne's verse really good on this as well. Like, everybody, like, it's not peak, Kanye. It is not peak, Wayne. Yeah, but it's just dog.

[Cole Kushna]

Like, Wayne says, my trigger finger wise but my nine dumb middle finger blind so it's fucking a n y one.

[Charles Holmes]

My trigger finger wise but my nine dumb middle finger blind SO it's a n y one skating die, son. 100 ways to die, son. I'm staring at a trap.

[Cole Kushna]

How do you come up with rhyming my 9 dumb with then spelling out a n y1? Why, like, good? That's, like, insane to me.

[Charles Holmes]

In what's his. Do you have? There's one he has about pepperoni on

[Cole Kushna]

it that I. Oh, I haven't pulled up. But yeah, no joke.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah, the pepperoni line he has. This is really fucking good. Like, Smuckers is to me is so, like, foundational to the Tyler story, because it's the moment where he goes from looking up to his idols to standing with them. And he's doing it at the age of 23, 24.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, that's pretty crazy. By the way, Lil Wayne also says, I'm staring at a tramp on lean, make my eye jump, tramp on Lee. I mean, it's, like, borderline corny. But come on.

[Charles Holmes]

This is what I will say Lil Wayne does well through, like, when he's. I say he would probably lose it around, like, no ceilings in mixtape, and every artist from Drake to Big Sean would learn the wrong lessons. When Wayne is rapping a Corny punchline. It's funny because it's Wayne and he's smoking a bunch of weed and he's coming off the top of the head and it's like. Like, yeah, that's Wayne. When Big Sean does it, you're like, dog you. Not Wayne, though, you know, I stick

[Cole Kushna]

my rolly in her mouth. Let the time come. It's so good.

[Charles Holmes]

It's so good. We was talking about it. We might have to do a Wayne season.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, that's the most ambitious one yet.

[Charles Holmes]

But we cannot.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay, I'm not. I'm on the. Sometimes I like Kanye's verse. Sometimes I'm just like, oh, he's. He's struggling at the end. He's struggling.

[Charles Holmes]

No, he's struggling. But this is why, like. Like, no parties in la. Like, there is a moment where it's like Kanye's. When would you say Kanye's rapping, like, falls off? Not falls off a cliff, but you can noticeably. Like, he's like. He cannot stay on beat for his life. I would say it's about Pablo.

[Cole Kushna]

Ish.

[Charles Holmes]

Pablo is like.

[Cole Kushna]

It's like, on the fence sometimes.

[Charles Holmes]

Sometimes Pablo is the last album where it's like, the rapping is good and serviceable even when it's bad. And then everything that comes after, like, yeah, I don't know if you're getting this bad. And this, to me, is around that era where I'm like, all right, Kanye, we could have done another take. But also, to be fair. What? Kanye recorded his new verse a couple days before the album was turned.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, Like, I think I read where they actually finished the beat, like, four hours before the album had to be turned in.

[Charles Holmes]

And I. Because I think, like, Kanye redoes his. Redoes his verse after hearing Wayne and Tyler, and then he goes back into the studio and is adding a bunch of stuff, like, under.

[Cole Kushna]

Under Kanye specifically. Yeah. I've always been mixed on this song. Sometimes I'm like, oh, this is pretty good. Sometimes I'm just like, oh, this is kind of a mess. I know some people. I know people love that. I'm probably in minority here, but I've always been on fence about this.

[Charles Holmes]

So what. What other songs could I have picked in place of Smuckers? If we're being real for being real.

[Cole Kushna]

Let me pull up the checklist real quick.

[Charles Holmes]

Cuz I don't think. I think I like Death Camp better. I don't think.

[Cole Kushna]

I think Death Camp's a strong contender. I mean, I like Okaga, the last track.

[Charles Holmes]

Okay, you want to know What I wouldn't have. I do, like, whatchamacallit, bro. Schoolboy Q tracks. Yeah, I love. But it's one of those things where

[Cole Kushna]

I'm like, yeah, the Brown Stains. It's pretty sick.

[Charles Holmes]

It's a great song, but I don't. I couldn't walk in here and be like, the brown stains of Darkis Latifah. Like, I'm just like, no, be serious.

[Cole Kushna]

Keep to O's. Are you a fan of that song?

[Charles Holmes]

This is also going to be a controversial thing if we're talking about the artists that, like. Like, Tyler has actual chemistry with Charlie Wilson, which is insane. Charlie Wilson has one of the most beautiful voices of all time. And then there's Tyler, the creator, who has one of the most interesting voices. Different chemistry, Haji beats in him. Chemistry. I don't know if Tyler really has chemistry with Pharrell despite him being his idol. There's something about, like, any single time they partner together, I'm like, these are not bad songs, but they're not transcendent songs. Songs.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, I can see you making that point. I mean, they. They. Pharrell on Igor is pretty good. They have some moments. Definitely not the early work, I think. I think Keep the O's might be my least favorite song in the project, but, yeah, they're not a ton to choose from. I don't know. Justin, did you. Any songs that we didn't pick Jump out from Cherry Bomb?

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

I don't know.

[Cole Kushna]

You're a fan of this record?

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

Not as much as Wolf. I think Wolf. There were a bunch.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

I mean, two Cedar is kind of my song off this record.

[Cole Kushna]

Two Seater's good. I like Two Seaters.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

I also like the closing track.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, the cog is beautiful.

[Charles Holmes]

Damn. Now that we're talking about Wolf again, I kind of want to be like, dog. Just let me nominate Beamer. Like.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

Yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

You know, retroactively.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

Beamer, I think is. That's one for the. The fans might get on you from skipping that.

[Charles Holmes]

No, no, we didn't skip it. We said we loved it, but it's like we would have to nominate the whole song, and I'm just like.

[Cole Kushna]

I think we can extract it out.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah, right.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

Yeah, you'd have to do that. I mean, like, Wolf, there's just, like, a lot more to debate. Like, you guys didn't even talk about Lone, which I think is a fantastic song. Colossus, which is his version of Stan, but also, like, really good storytelling.

[Charles Holmes]

It's. It's so funny because it's like, I Can't tell how much Tyler is being serious, because at that moment, I'm like. Like, dog, you just released Yonkers and you're already like, this song, these fans. You guys are bandwagon. I'm like, dog, it ain't been that long. He's already like this.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

I also really like Pig Zon, Wolf. Yeah, okay, but, you know, if we're. If we're getting ahead of ourselves, I don't. I don't see a coach's challenge coming here either.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, you know what? I already teased it. Fuck it. You know what? I'm taking. I'm taking Beamer. I don't give a fuck.

[Cole Kushna]

I'm not going to argue with that. I think it's better than Jamba.

[Charles Holmes]

I will just say it's like, I already have French with Haji represented. And I'm just like. Just so the odd future. Because I can't tell if the odd future fans are going to be mad at me this season or be like, hey, yo, he's been there since the beginning. But, like, even when I. Cause I think Beamer guy. It was on the Damo 23 music video, right? And then it's. And I remember waiting.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

I was like.

[Charles Holmes]

I was waiting for Wolf. I'm like, I can't wait for this song. And then I'm like, this motherfucking made it, track 10. And there's two other songs on this shit, bro. So I'm going with Beaming like off of Wolf. Fuck.

[Cole Kushna]

All right. I like the Twist. Do I want to go Answer or.

[Charles Holmes]

So can I say this? Are you doubling up too much with doing the title track Bastard and Answer? Do either of those cancel each other out?

[Cole Kushna]

I mean, not to me. It's either that or I. If H y. I personally like Answer better.

[Charles Holmes]

Do you think the fans would kill us if we didn't put Ifhy?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, maybe. I think we're past the. I mean, we've already made some pretty controversial picks, I feel like, so. See my heart saying Answer. The populist pick is ifhy.

[Charles Holmes]

Go with your heart. Go with your heart.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, fuck it. It's our show. I'm going to answer.

[Charles Holmes]

Okay. Fuck yes.

[Cole Kushna]

For production alone. Just. I mean, I didn't do my breakdown, but I could have. It's. It's fucking beautiful. So I'm going answer. I feel good with that.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, then. What are you doing off Cherry Bomb?

[Cole Kushna]

I mean, the obvious choice is fucking Young. I love Cherry Bomb, though. The title track. I fucking love that song, I think.

[Charles Holmes]

So here's the Thing. As someone who also loves Cherry Bomb Smuckers, I just want to kind of talk about that as a moment, because it was a bit. I remember when Cherry Bomb dropped, it was a big moment that he got Kanye and Lil Wayne. I'm not gonna choose Smuckers because he's like, it's, it's more about. It's a more of a coronation than it is something that represents Tyler. So I am left with Buffalo, which is just like, I just love. Like, I love Tyler rapping over that beat. But I would pick Cherry Bomb because I love Cherry Bomb. Like, if you did not nominate it, I probably would have. And that opens you up to having fucking Young. But do you think people will kill us if we don't pick Smuckers?

[Cole Kushna]

I don't know. I, I prefer Buffalo over Smuckers, so I'm fine with the choice, but I think. I don't know, Cherry Bomb just might be. Can Cherry Bomb really get far? I feel like.

[Charles Holmes]

Can Young get far?

[Cole Kushna]

I feel like it could.

[Charles Holmes]

No, no, no, no, no. It was a different time. And here's the thing. He was Tyler at that point. He was too rich and successful. So it's like, hey, yeah, you could be a weirdo in public, but there's no way Young is getting far.

[Cole Kushna]

Justin, do you have any. Are you a fan of Cherry Bomb? The song?

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

I respect it.

[Cole Kushna]

Okay.

[Charles Holmes]

Do you think that Young will get far in the Royal Rumble?

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

No, I, I, I don't see any of these songs getting that far in the Royal Roll. The Cherry Bomb songs, specifically.

[Cole Kushna]

I love fucking. I'm going fucking Young. That's not just the Populous pick. It's a beautiful song, a little bit morally ambiguous, but you know what?

[Charles Holmes]

And then you know what? Nah, fuck it. I'm going with Buffalo. I'm going with my. I'm going with my heart. Yeah, Tyler's rapping. Tyler is rapping. This what I love.

[Cole Kushna]

All right, I'm changing my mind. I'm going Cherry Bomb. Actually, my heart is saying Cherry Bomb, dude.

[Charles Holmes]

Then why'd you go with me?

[Cole Kushna]

Well, because I'm like. But then when I was thinking about Answer and fucking Young, I don't know. That's just. It's getting too predictable in my. We got it. Let's honor. In the same way we pick Face to Face off of Discovery for Daft Punk. Let's go Cherry Bomb.

[Charles Holmes]

So right now, let's make a statement. So far, my list, I have French, Yonkers, Bimmer and Buffalo.

[Cole Kushna]

I got Bastard title track. She. We're Going cherry bomb. Title track. Answer.

[Charles Holmes]

I will. I will say on your list, if we were just reading it out at the end of the season, you having she and fucking like, oh, are you all right? Your wife would have like, Cole, what have you been listening to?

[Cole Kushna]

I feel good about that list. But next episode, we're going Flower Boy. We're going singular.

[Charles Holmes]

We're going singular. Not from here on out. There's a couple that you guys could kind of guess the ones that we're gonna pair. But, like, Flower Boy gets its own clear out.

[Cole Kushna]

And this is where things get really good. I'm really excited to talk Flower Boy, especially knowing that you haven't actually listened to it for a while. I'm very interested.

[Charles Holmes]

I don't think I've listened to Flower Boy since the year it dropped.

[Cole Kushna]

Shut up.

[Charles Holmes]

Yeah, it's not my favorite, Tyler.

[Cole Kushna]

Well, maybe that'll change Igor.

[Charles Holmes]

To me, Igor is probably the zenith. Like, that's the. That's the record I'm waiting for.

[Cole Kushna]

Well, your. Your feelings might change now. You're a change man. You're meditating now.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

I am.

[Cole Kushna]

Flower Boy might, you know, hit you a little bit different these days. Justin, you say. You said no coaches challenge.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

No coaches challenge coming on this one.

[Cole Kushna]

One. All right. I think that's respectable. All right, until next time. Thank you to everyone. Thank you to Jamie, thank you to Justin. Thank you to Kevin. Thank you to bureaucratic for the theme music, and thank you, Charles.

[Charles Holmes]

All right, yo, we are back. Cultural exchange. Our favorite moment from every episode. Okay. I gave you a Miyazaki documentary about the making of the Wind Rises, and you gave me one of your songs from your band. What's the title track? Not title track. What's the track?

[Cole Kushna]

Red Top Road, Deadbolt Rodeo. It's actually really weird for me to be saying this on a podcast. Like, the music I made when I was, like, 19.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

Honest. Honest opinion. You don't have to.

[Charles Holmes]

Good. Like, way better than I thought it was going to be like. I was just like, damn, I'm going have to get on this podcast, be like, dog, that was whack. No, I was actually like, that's not bad. When I was in my white boy indie era, this would have been part of the mix. This would have been like. I was just like, oh, shit. Wait, so what instrument were you playing?

[Cole Kushna]

The guitar.

[Charles Holmes]

Guitar.

[Cole Kushna]

The piano in the intro, too.

[Charles Holmes]

Give the people a little bit. Now I'm interviewing you during the conception of this song and the music. What was your role? Were you contributing to lyrics or Were you just contributing to guitar, piano, the production, the composition? What was your role in this?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, usually one person in the band would come up with the foundational part of the track. Usually a guitar part. So this particular song I wrote, I think all the guitar. Main guitar parts of the song. So the foundation of this song was the guitar parts that I wrote. And yeah. Singer had really great lyrics. He's a poet. He was a. Still is a poet. He went to school for poetry. So, you know, he's got really great abstract kind of lyrics. I mean, that song specifically, like the. The bass and drums on that song, really fucking good. Like the bass player. Jaden is like virtuoso jazz bass player. That was doing us a courtesy by playing this rock band with us. But yeah, that's. I remember writing that song on a little eight track cassette tape recorder, actually. That's how old it was Cole is.

[Charles Holmes]

We keep making fun of Justin for being old, but. No, Cold is oldest.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah, I'm getting old.

[Charles Holmes]

No, I was like. I'm not like, being like, just like, nice. I was just. I was like, oh, this is like a song and it's like, good, like 19. I was just like, oh, okay.

[Cole Kushna]

When I look back and then like, understanding at how young I was. Because at the time you don't think you're young, but like 19 to be writing stuff like that. But I'm proud of it.

[Charles Holmes]

What were your influences when y' all were in the band where you were like, these are the artists that we be like, talking about at the Drive In.

[Cole Kushna]

Mars Volta and Radiohead. Basically. Basically it Right when I discovered Radiohead and we were huge fans of at the Drive In, Mars Volta had just came out, I think, right when that record we came up with, that song we were supposed to play with Mars Volta on their first tour. So this band was, like, signed to a little indie label, so we had some credibility. And when Mars Volta came to Sacramento, we were supposed to open for them. So we show up at the venue. These guys are fucking idols. This is literally Tyler opening Pharrell. And we show up and we don't see Mars Volta there. And we asked the bartender, where is everyone? And I guess they got in a fight with the bartender who they claimed said something racist to them. And then they just fucking left and they didn't play the show. So we ended up playing. We gave everyone their money back and played a free show for everyone.

[Charles Holmes]

God damn. Was everybody in the crowd be like, hey, thank you for playing a free show. Where's fucking Mars Volta.

[Cole Kushna]

Not everyone stuck around. Let's just say that.

[Charles Holmes]

But yo, guys, listen to the track. I was very impressed. I was like, hell, yeah.

[Cole Kushna]

I gotta say. So for yours. So I'm trying to get into anime. I gotta tell you, man, this was the perfect choice.

[Charles Holmes]

Really?

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. This is like, right up. This is like, you know me by now. So this is like, exactly what I needed to get to understand the vision, to understand who's putting their hands, to see them drawing every fucking frame. To have to get a better understanding of him as a director, as this enigmatic figure who is. It's really interesting how they even structured the DVD or the documentary because they don't really tell you the complicated stuff about him where it's. He's really hard to work for until halfway through. And so you get this a little more romantic portrait of him in the beginning where you're really captivated by his kind of mysterious demeanor. And then you kind of. The layers keep, like, kind of peeling back and peeling back.

[Charles Holmes]

See how he's like. He's not the greatest father. He's very opinionated. Like, you just. Like, this is historically. And I think that's the funny thing about Miyazaki is you see, like, the smiling, like, Santa face and you're like, oh, this is the Walt Disney of Japan. You're just like. Then you watch the documentary and, like, halfway through, you're like, oh, how does someone so complicated and like, with a complicated past, his father and all this stuff make movies that are so. I know, right?

[Cole Kushna]

And just. I'm also hearing, like, they don't even understand their films or, you know, all the way. They're like. They love leaving things ambiguous. Like, it was. It's like. It was like, touche to this choice. It might be like, among your best cultural exchanges. Because, like, this was. I'm like, I'm ready for what? You're going to now assign me for my first anime, which will be next episode. Unless you have one, I'll double up.

[Charles Holmes]

But did you know? I'm like. I'm thinking now. Now I'm gonna let me go back in the lab. Because now I'm just like. Cause I picked that because I think we, like, we share a similar mind where it's like seeing any. How any creative makes something makes me fall in love with. Even if I'm not a fan of the art form, the process of it, of just being like, oh, there is something that is very like. It's why I love, like, lynch, where it's like, there is something so Unknowable, where it's like, sometimes I don't even think that he necessarily knows everything that's in his movie, but he knows it's in there for a reason. And I'm like, oh, I like that. Miyazaki, to me, is also that type of person where he's like. He's not always intellectualizing why something needs to be some way, but there is that consciousness of just like, it's here for a reason.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. Okay, so my turn to assign you something. So I'm gonna continue. If you. For anyone that listened to the last season of Last Song Standing, it was like when you. I think someone went to the bathroom or something.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

And then we got to talk. We left it in the episode. But, like, we got to talking about. We ended up landing on the Dao De Jing somewhere. I don't know how we got there, but I was like, have you ever read the Dao De Jing? It wasn't a formal, like, assignment. But you're meditating now.

[Charles Holmes]

Yes.

[Cole Kushna]

You're getting in more. A little bit more.

[Charles Holmes]

I'm becoming way more spiritual. I'm 33 now, and I'm like, finally my mind is open to the world and possibilities. You want to know how I know? The universe is telling me that this is the right path. I'm Snow White out here. I keep. There's hummingbirds on my path. I've seen two hummingbirds like. Like this just coming, like, buzzing around me. And I'm like, okay. They can sense, like, come on. I'm being like, Dao de.

[Cole Kushna]

I used to read Dao de once a year. I need to steal. I needed to continue doing that. But when I discovered it, when I was. I guess I probably was like, 20. I read it once a year for the longest time.

[Charles Holmes]

Wait, can you.

[Cole Kushna]

So I'm going to read. I'm going to reread it with you, so I'll come prepared to talk about it.

[Charles Holmes]

Can you give the audience just a little bit of. Just, like, what it is and then, like, why it was kind of so profound for you?

[Cole Kushna]

It's foundational text of Daoism written by Lao Tzu. It is. It's structured. It's very easy, quote, unquote to read because, like, it's just a series of. I guess you would call them poems. So what's on the page is very short, but it's something you can think about. The one quote, unquote poem is something you could just think about forever. So it's something you could take your time with. You can read one little poem a week and, like, just contemplate that. Or you can read the entire thing in one sitting and just kind of let the kind of overall philosophy wash over you. But it's very much about, you know, it's like what we talk about with music, honestly, you know, trying to get more in touch with the essence of things rather than the physical manifestations of them, and try. And then that's, you know, why meditation is so important, because that's a practice in which you can kind of.

[Charles Holmes]

It's like, as I'm practicing, transcendental meditation, I think they call it, like. Like. Or lynch was talking about kind of like the unified field.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Of just, like, in physics and in just the world. Of just like. We all kind of come from.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

A very similar, like, place. So I'm very excited because it's just such a more peaceful way to think of the world. Of just like.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah.

[Charles Holmes]

Getting deep into your consciousness and realizing we're one. We're one of a whole beautiful you.

[Cole Kushna]

Yeah. All right. I'm so excited. I'm going to read it with you, Justin, if you want to read it.

[Charles Holmes]

Justin definitely needs to read it. You definitely need to pick it up, Justin.

[Justin Sales (Producer)]

All right.

[Charles Holmes]

Hell, yeah. Hell, yeah. We're all meditating. The last song standing, Boys are meditating. Getting into Taoism. This is incredible.

[Tyler, The Creator (as Wolf Haley)]

All right.

[Charles Holmes]

Hell, yeah.