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- [00:00]
Kat Swift
You are kind of a diplomat. Like, you are essentially navigating relationships. You are much more hands on. So you're going to be delivering a lot of in the pixels work, but a lot of the job is also understanding the structures of power.
- [00:14]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
What have you found to be the highest ROI activities that you as a designer could be doing?
- [00:20]
Kat Swift
Don't share the work. Nobody knows it happened, so you have to be sure that you're communicating it.
- [00:25]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
What else are some of the best staff designers doing when presenting their ideas?
- [00:30]
Kat Swift
Usually for a senior designer to show that they're ready to go to that next level is to think outside of the scale of just their team or to think outside of the scale of the immediate project that they're working on. So how do you push that just a little bit further and think a little bit more broadly? Because that's what a staff designer does. We zoom out and then we zoom back in, and then we zoom back out again.
- [00:50]
Rid (podcast host/producer)
Welcome to Dive Club. My name is Rid. And this is where designers never stop learning. This week's episode is with Cat Swift, who's a longtime staff designer at companies like asana, Etsy and SoundCloud. And today we're going to do a deep dive into all of the ways that ICs can make a big impact on your team by casting strategic vision for the product. We're going to go deep into storytelling, and Kat shares some really interesting tactics that you can use to invest in some of the relationships on your team. But before we get into all of that, I wanted to start by talking about what it looks like to have real influence as a designer.
- [01:29]
Kat Swift
When it comes to influence, I am usually thinking about a couple of things. One thing is trust. You can usually tell if somebody trusts you, if they are, for example, consulting you for feedback on things. So there are going to be signals that you are influential. So one of them is, you know, leaders, for example, coming to you, asking questions of you. It is leaders actually taking your ideas seriously and saying, you know, oh, that's really helpful. Those are little signals that you are building trust and what we call social capital. And social capital is a measurement that, you know, it's a framework of sorts where essentially you're measuring the currency of your relationships, your social relationships. And so when you have more social capital, then you can actually kind of be more vulnerable and share more ideas. And then if you don't have a lot of social capital, then people are not going to respond to your ideas as well. You can think of social capital as also a way of Measuring your influence. But other signals, for example, are that your ideas travel without you. So when I was interviewing Micah Bennett for my book, staff designer Maika pointed this out, actually, and I thought it was a really cool way to refer to how influential I am. So if people come to me later, like, I maybe I wasn't in the room, but somebody mentioned an idea that I mentioned to them, and then that other person, you know, there's other people in the room who come to me later, and they're like, hey, I heard that you had this idea. Can you tell me more about it? That is also a form of influen. Your ideas are traveling without you having to be the person saying them.
- [03:08]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
I love the idea of ideas traveling and even reflecting on my own journey doing this podcast. One of the clear things that I've kind of taken with me and brought into my practice is thinking about the memeability of my ideas. Like how concisely can you portray an idea so that that next person can then deliver it on your behalf?
- [03:29]
Kat Swift
The more that you create frameworks for people, I found people really like frameworks. They love illustrations, diagrams, things like that that can help them to kind of like, wrap their mind around what you're trying to convey to them. And that's actually also the benefit of storytelling. So storytelling is also a really important part of bridging the gap from senior to staff. And really, that's like, one of the big differences in the work that I do is that I'm thinking a lot more about how I can tell a story that overlaps, you know, a customer pain with a business problem and then pitch that to people, essentially to suggest that we go in a certain direction with a project. Or maybe I'm trying to propose an entirely new project, but I found that, yeah, like, that is also part of influence when you figure out how to share information in a way that is most compelling to other people.
- [04:19]
Rid (podcast host/producer)
Real quick message, and then we can.
- [04:20]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
Jump back into it. All right, here's the thing.
- [04:22]
Rid (podcast host/producer)
You don't need another dashboard. What you need to do is to talk to customers. So I to want, want to introduce you to genway AI. You can think of it kind of like vibe researching to validate your ideas quickly. Just draft your questions, select an icp, and then their AI agent runs interviews on your behalf by pulling from a.
- [04:43]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
Panel of global participants.
- [04:45]
Rid (podcast host/producer)
I mean, you could literally set it up in the morning and get actionable insights by lunchtime. It's validation at your fingertips, and you can try it out free for 14 days. Just head to Dive Club Genway to get started. That's G E N W A Y. Raycast is my portal to AI. It's a quick keyboard shortcut away, which means it's always at my fingertips. I can add attachments, build presets to streamline certain workflows, and they Even support over 30 models from OpenAI to Claude to Perplexity. So your chats aren't bound to a single model. And the best part is you can try their AI and all of their extensions for free. No subscription, no account needed. Raycast has pretty quickly become the cornerstone of how I use my computer. So if you haven't tried it yet, do yourself a favor and head to Dive Club Raycast to get started. That's R A Y C A S.
- [05:45]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
T. Okay, now onto the episode. If someone's listening to this and they want to chart their own personal path to building influence, maybe over like a six month time horizon, how should they think about that journey? And what are some of the key.
- [05:59]
Kat Swift
Checkpoints along the way when you're thinking about becoming more influential? The first step is definitely surveying your relationships. So taking a look at the relationships you have at your job at that moment and essentially analyzing the different kinds of workplace relationships that you have. Do you have most connections with people who are your peers, for example? So those are maybe people who are directly contributing to your work, but they're not like stakeholders per se. And then I also think it's important to look at how strong the relationships you have are with your stakeholders. So are you talking to the director of Product Design on a semi regular basis? How close are you to your design manager? How close are you to the product leaders at your company, for example, as well? And once you have an understanding of your current state, then you can actually start strategizing how you're going to build stronger connections with maybe more of those people at the leadership level. Because one thing that's really important to be able to do is to have allies and like advocates essentially who are able to again, share ideas on your behalf and they are able to vouch for you or rally for you if you have people who disagree who are at their level. One of the big reasons people fail to influence is that they don't have those allies who are at levels that can actually throw their weight around when necessary. I think a big part of it is power and the relationships of power between people and getting better at understanding those. And so once you have an understanding of those, then you can invest energy into building those connections. Then once you have more of those connections that are in a better place. You can start experimenting and you can start providing ideas about certain things. And then it becomes a question of what do you spend your energy on. And that, I think is the other big part of the work. So when I was senior, one of the things I did a lot of was spreading my energy very thin and I was working on the employee resource group, which I really loved doing. I was also, you know, building design team culture. I was helping with, like, you know, improving onboarding for the design team. I was throwing my weight around with like improving the way we wrote our specs, like our product specs. I was like improving Jira tickets, like a bunch of stuff that isn't actually the designer's job. Like, it is valuable work, but it's not actually what a hands on designer is measured for when it comes to the promotion. I started auditing my workload and where I was spending my energy, and I started asking myself, what is actually part of the title that I'm looking for, what's expected of a staff designer. And then I realized, okay, I actually just need to really focus on delivering great work. And, you know, unfortunately I have to cut some of these other things. But the benefit of that is that I can actually focus. I can build my story storytelling skills, I can build my communication skills. And that was a big part of me getting to that next step. So, yeah, I think once you start to focus your energy on problems that you actually want to be known for solving, then what happens is people start knowing you for those things. And when you have strong relationships, then that kind of converges and then you end up in a great place where you have influence.
- [09:13]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
Okay, so there's kind of two pieces there. There's the relationship side and then there's the how do I use my time? So maybe we could start with just digging into the relationships piece a little bit. Let's say that I've done my audit of workplace relationships and realizing I'm pretty low on the totem pole, basically. Like, I don't have a lot of stakeholder friends. It's mostly peer connections. And again, thinking about this six month roadmap for myself, what can I do? It feels so wishy washy to like invest in relationships. Like, how would you think about that? As a designer? If my goal is to bring on allies at more of the stakeholder level.
- [09:50]
Kat Swift
I would start by figuring out which of the leaders that I think I need to connect with to be more influential. Which of them are most connected to the project work that I'm doing immediately, I would schedule time with them either on a monthly basis or a quarterly basis. So, for example, if you have a director of product design who you know is your manager's manager, then I would make sure to meet with that person once a month, and I would make sure to meet with my manager and probably, you know, once a week, something like that. And then during those meetings, what's really important is to show up with questions. So don't just bring us a status update, although those are nice sometimes. But what's actually important is to make sure that in those conversations, you are asking what's top of mind for them, what's happening in their world as of late, things that they wish that the team were doing or would stop doing. Questions like that actually help you understand what their goals are. And then that opens up avenues of conversation for you to make suggestions or share insights, share things that you're learning as well, or share, you know, where you're aligning in terms of what they've said that maybe resonates with you. The more that you do that, then the more trust you are building and the more that they will understand that you're somebody who is an ally to them also. And usually I also ask, you know, is there anything that you need help with? Because one of the other things that I've learned over the years is that the more that you are useful to your manager, the more they appreciate you and your work, and they will think of you, you know, on the short list of people who can help them with certain things that they need to get done. So the more you become a person who gets things done, the better. And essentially, by doing that, you know, for a couple of months, you will probably find that your relationships are stronger because you have been building, you know, this series of conversations where you're identifying the overlaps, and ideally, you also take notes. If there are things that they do request that you help with, then you really want to make sure to take note of those and actually follow up on those later. So that's something else that I always tell people, like, be ready to document certain tasks that you agree to do, and then make sure to update those people about them, make sure to follow up afterward. And that consistency is also going to build trust that you are somebody that they are able to rely on. So really, what you're trying to do is you're trying to, you know, consistently show that you're a reliable person who agrees with them on certain things. And you probably have insight that they're not aware of because you are closer to the work, you're closer to your peers, you have a view that they just don't have. So when you become a valuable asset to them, then of course you're going to have like a stronger relationship in general. So that's what I mean when I say invest in relationships is actually, you know, make sure that you're connecting with those people on a regular basis. And then if there's people who are like kind of further outside the ring, maybe they're not your immediate project stakeholders or something like that, but you think they're cool. I usually talk to those people once a quarter, so I'll schedule a quarterly conversation. And those people are also nice to have because maybe your company reorgs, for example, and one of them ends up being your manager or in your reporting chain. And then you have a strong relationship. So if there are people that you admire, you think that they're the way that they think is really interesting. It is worth also connecting with those people, especially if you notice that they tend to get their way. And some of this sounds like really, I mean, it is politicking.
- [13:13]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
It's true politics, but it's like that's the way the world works.
- [13:17]
Kat Swift
Yeah, it's the way the world works. Also as a staff designer, you are kind of a diplomat. Like you are essentially navigating relationships. You are much more hands on. So you're going to be delivering a lot of in the pixels work, but a lot of the job is also understanding the structures of power. Who has it, who doesn't, how certain people feel about certain things, how emotions are affecting the way that people show up to work and understanding essentially how to highlight the goals that everybody has and where the overlaps are and where there is maybe some friction that needs to be resolved.
- [13:49]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
I like the idea of starting with a leader that's a closer node and having that recurring conversation being a next step. My follow up question is going to be hilariously specific, but I really just want to get into the details here, which is okay, I open up slack, I click new dm. The cursor is blinking in this input. What the heck am I typing? Let's say that it's not a culture where one on ones recurring one on ones are common. Right? Like how do I present that conversation in a way that feels valuable for the other person versus obviously me just trying to get plugged in, you know.
- [14:26]
Kat Swift
That's a great question. Usually when I am starting to invest in working relationships with People, I may send them a DM and I may say something like, hey, I realized that we don't have a regular time to connect. And I'm actually really curious about the way that you think about the work. And I think that having at least one ad hoc, one to one conversation will be really helpful for making sure that we're on the same page about the work that we're trying to do. And I think that me getting a better understanding of your goals will help me understand where we overlap. So is it okay if I set up 30 minutes? I will be honest with you. Usually I just grab the time and I put in the description, that exact message. Basically I'll say like, hey, we don't really normally have one to one time together, so I'm just grabbing this time so that I can learn more about you. Smiley face or something like that, you know, and usually that isn't enough. And if you want to be more specific, of course people love an agenda. So you can put agenda with bullet points that say, you know, introductions, five minutes, and then what's going on in your world lately? Question mark. Like, you can literally like outline the questions you plan to ask so that they can prepare for the conversation. But yeah, people in my experience are quite open to just having these conversations with people. And I mean, people just don't ask. Like, they don't know that they can ask. So I encourage you as people who are listening, to actually reach out proactively. Because if you don't, I mean, you have to have a really present leader for them to do that for themselves, but they're just so busy, they just don't really have the time. So unfortunately, a lot of times it's on us to actually make sure that we're doing that outreach.
- [16:07]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
You did frame it very specifically though, where it was like, I want to hear your ideas, you know, and anytime you're making someone feel heard, it's like.
- [16:14]
Rid (podcast host/producer)
Yeah, of course people like talking about.
- [16:16]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
Their ideas, you know, So I did kind of underline the way that you positioned that request. Makes a lot of sense. I want to transition to the other piece that you talked about, which is kind of your own personal ROI of like, how am I allocating my time as someone whose ultimate goal, at least for the purposes of this conversation, is career growth? What should I be doing? You know? And it seems like there is this almost returned focus to the core work. If there's anything more to share there, by all means. I'm also kind of curious, like outside of the day, to Day responsibility. What have you found to be the highest ROI activities that you as a designer could be doing? Who is looking for this next step in the career?
- [16:59]
Kat Swift
For me, where the energy audit came from is learning about this term called glue work. It was joined by Tanya Riley, who is a super seasoned engineer. And Tanya recognized that there's this. This endemic issue where essentially really well meaning people will fill in gaps they need to be filled by somebody. And ideally there would probably be somebody hired into those positions, or, you know, maybe there's just people are too busy and they're understaffed and that person decides that they will be the one to be the hero and fill the gap in. And it is important that that work again gets done. Like, it is important that somebody's thinking about team culture. It's important that somebody's improving onboarding. But the question is, do you want to be known for that stuff? Is that the thing that you want people coming to you for, or is it just that somebody had to do it? And then I usually ask myself, does it have to be me or actually, should somebody else be doing that? So that was where the original issue came from for me, was that, you know, after I learned this term, I noticed I was doing a lot of glue work. And that was a big part of why I just didn't have the capacity to invest in some of the things that my manager and her manager were, you know, saying that they needed to see from me to get to that next level, which was really, you know, creating visions like exploring potential overlaps between my team and other teams. Like, I was just spending all of that energy on this work that had not very much to do with my actual job title. So I personally feel like the energy audited is very important. And what you can do is again, you ask yourself, you know, what do you want to be known for? Is it that particular problem that you're trying to solve right now? Is that problem actually somebody else's problem to solve? And then I also like to ask what the business impact of the issue is. So sometimes we get really wrapped up in things that are important. They're incredibly important. But if the business does not value them, then you either have to accept that that's something that you're going to do because you are a very kind person and that's fine, or you need to reevaluate if you want to spend your energy on that at all. So in my case, I realized, okay, like, I do care about teen culture, of course, but maybe there's a way that I can invest in teen culture while not expending so much energy. So instead now what I do as a staff designer, for example, is I have regular one to ones with any designers that I'm working with on the team. And so I get to do a lot of direct mentorship and I do peer designing with them. And during that time they can ask any questions that they want, you know, so they ask me, how did you get to the level that you're at? Like, all those kinds of things that I wanted to be able to share with people in other formats. I've figured out a way to actually have it be part of my job description. So that's something I recommend thinking about. And yeah, when it comes to roi, it really is that question of if you're looking at the next level, for example, like, what is the job description actually include? I mean, the business really likes it when you do things that are, you know, overlapping with their goals. So a lot of what I will spend my time on is thinking about new business opportunities or opportunities to create more consistency or cohesion, ways that we can speed up our processes. I will think about how do I extend the work that I'm doing right now into the near future, like, what am I building toward? Those are pretty straightforward ways. Usually for a senior designer to show that they're ready to go to that next level is to think outside of the scale of just their team or to think outside of the scale of the immediate project that they're working on. So how do you push that just a little bit further and think a little bit more broadly? Because that's what a staff designer does. We zoom out and then we zoom back in and then we zoom back out again.
- [20:44]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
Okay, so let's talk about this visioning piece. I like that label that you give it and you break it down into defining and presenting. So maybe we could start off in that definition phase. What have you learned about that process?
- [20:59]
Kat Swift
It is so critical to make sure that you are actually assessing the reason that you're doing the vision in the first place. And I think it's really important when you're in the definition phase to actually get buy in and support from the appropriate teammates. So something I've seen a lot is that a design leader will say, hey, we should do a vision, and then product is not involved. And that is usually the number one way that a vision becomes useless immediately after it's done is that like there's no product support because we as design usually are not owning the roadmap. So like, if there's nobody who actually owns the roadmap involved with the process, they're going to feel, of course, like their territory is being encroached on. They're going to feel like they're being told what to do and they're going to feel like you're saying that their job is useless. Right. So they're not going to listen to you. And maybe you're right that some of the things that you came up with should be on the roadmap. So you need to make sure that you're involving them so that they have input and they feel like it's partially theirs. So that's number one when it comes to defining, you know, what we're doing. Just involving the right people is really important. So I always tell people, make sure that upfront you are talking with your product manager or your product partner, you have a researcher. If you have researchers at your company, I hope you do. And then if you also have product marketing people, then I definitely recommend also involving them because what you're trying to do with a vision is you're trying to tell a story of how you end up in a short or long term future where you are serving a certain customer. And so product marketing can help you figure out how you want to position the product. And the more that you have that conversation upfront as part of that visioning work, then you're essentially putting stakes in the ground for multiple parties and you're making everybody's job a lot easier. So for example, when I was working at Asana, I collaborated with my user researcher, my product manager for the area that we had created. And then we had a product market marketing person as well. And we were very, very close together from the beginning of the process. So we sat down together and figured out who we were targeting, like which customer segments we wanted to target. We were thinking about like, what is the business opportunity financially? Like, why do we think we should invest energy into this work? And then yeah, we figured out like, what are the most common pains and the general broad themes of the work that we want to actually explore within this vision. And like, essentially that's going to create our roadmap longer term. So that's a lot of like the outlining phase. And then there's also of course going to be, you know, digging into the ideas. Then once we have like a broad outline of what we're trying to do, essentially then I have a picture of which teams I need to go talk to. And so at that point then I met with different people, different designers, mostly on different teams, to get ideas about how, you know, what we're thinking about might overlap with what they're thinking about. And so I was working on goal management. Asana has projects, right? So there's projects with tasks in them. So how might goals overlap with projects? How might goals overlap with portfolios, which are like folders of projects? Like, what are other areas within the product where seeing goals might actually be really valuable? So I essentially asked that question to lots of different designers and sat down with them in Figma and like, like sketched with them and stuff like that and got a bunch of initial ideas. I created like a summary outline and then went back to my pm and we sat down and we just kind of filtered through everything and looked for the strongest ideas. And then I started to actually illustrate them. So I always tell people, like, do not start actually doing high fidelity designs until you have a strong outline, because if you are, like, making things too pretty, then you're like, missing the conversation about the concept. And that's actually the most important thing. So once you have all of that, you know, you can actually keep iterating and refining and refining, and then hopefully you have a story there. So you ideally start with, you know, the customer suffering at the beginning because they don't have this thing. Then, you know, they turn. They learn about your feature somehow. Product marketing will help you with that part. And then once they learn about your product, then, you know, what is the experience? Like, how does their life change? So it's kind of like a hero's journey almost. And that's the importance of the storytelling aspect.
- [25:21]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
I want to get into the storytelling piece. I'm gonna put a quick pin in that. And I wanna go back to something you talked about in terms of the fidelity levels, because there's this narrative that I'm seeing a little bit more where people, leaders might be saying, you know what, we want you to jump straight to high fidelity, and we want a fully clickable prototype. And you should vibe code it this afternoon because we're gonna talk about it tomorrow. And just put it in front of me. Obviously, that kind of work or that sequencing of work wasn't necessarily that possible, you know, even six months ago, depending on where you're operating. So how do you think about that? Because I know a lot of designers are trying to make sense of how much do these new capabilities actually influence the way that I practice design.
- [26:07]
Kat Swift
I think there's upsides and there's downsides, right? Like the higher fidelity that your work is the more usually people will concentrate on the visual execution of the work versus the actual concept behind the work itself. They may get really nitty gritty about the interactions, for example, within the prototype and they might feel like, oh, this is like the only thing that we can go forward with. So I guess my feelings about this are if you're going to go the route of making these high fidelity prototypes, I would definitely suggest making several of them and showing several different options. And I think that optionality is really important because as designers, we know that ideas are cheap and execution is really important. If we're trying to talk about ideas, thinking about ways to focus people on the ideas, can you have some parts of it look high fidelity, but can you have wireframe text here and there, for example, are there still ways to make it clear that what we actually need to do is to have a conversation about the concept? I think also sometimes you can ask people questions about why they want to see things in a certain format. So, you know, maybe it's that they want to model good craft for the broader design team or like, maybe there's a reason they want to ultimately get to that high fidelity Vicod prototype. But like, if you have a conversation about the objectives, can you pull it back? You know, can you zoom out and have a discussion about what you're doing and like, why they are asking for that particular request? Like, what are they hoping to see? Maybe you'll learn something that can help guide the conversation also and align a little bit more so you can say, hey, you know, I want to understand what your objectives are there. Because yes, ultimately we should get to that prototype. But if we do that before we actually have discussed the ideas and just sketch them out or something like that, I think we're going to get really attached to whatever. I end up vibe coding and, you know, there might be a lot of other options out there that we could explore. And I want to make sure that I'm investing my energy appropriately. So I find that usually when, when I at least mention that I want to make appropriate investments with my energy, or if I think about like, oh, that's an expensive use of my time, or, you know, like, how do we prevent waste? Like, leaders tend to resonate a lot with that language around making sure that you're appropriately allocating time. So, yeah, I think like, as designers we can, you know, show up with curiosity and it's about not being defensive. So a lot of times I'll see people push back in a way that is really defensive and that is usually why they struggle to actually have those conversations. But, yeah, like, I think on one hand you can try to be open and curious because maybe they have a reason that they are asking for a very particular series of interactions in a prototype, but also, why not ask them for more detail versus just doing that work and trying it out? Sometimes I will ask that question and then I'll agree if, you know, they have, like, a particular vision in mind for, like, the way they want to work. And then if it doesn't work out, then, you know, we'll reflect on it, we'll go back and we'll try a different way.
- [29:20]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
I love the simple response of just asking why. Like, I think a lot of people, at least from my experience, just being on, you know, Twitter, Reddit forums, seeing how people are responding to this situation, that's very, very real. So many designers are in this situation right now, and I think a lot of people just kind of begrudgingly accept the mandate and then kind of ask internally, why am I doing this? You? And so understanding some of those deeper motives makes a lot of sense.
- [29:43]
Rid (podcast host/producer)
I also think your point about sharing.
- [29:46]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
Multiple options is so key too, because if you are not just sending someone a prototype that looks and feels very real, but it's like, hey, here's what I'm kind of thinking that changes the whole frame, right? Like, a thing that I've naturally found myself doing while dog footing inflight, that I wasn't necessarily doing before is, is putting multiple prototypes on a canvas and.
- [30:11]
Rid (podcast host/producer)
Then actually making a spectrum.
- [30:13]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
And like, here's the axes, here's this side of the axis, here's this side of the axes, and here's a few different ideas for each one. Play with each one and let me know where you think we should fall on this spectrum. And now all of a sudden, it's.
- [30:23]
Rid (podcast host/producer)
Like asking someone to not point out.
- [30:25]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
What they like or dislike inside of the single interactive prototype. But it's like, I want people to kind of point on a spectrum of, like, where do you think roughly we should be in between these concepts and what should we pull from each of them? And it totally change. Changes the way that you get feedback from a stakeholder in that situation.
- [30:43]
Kat Swift
Heck, yeah. Yeah. I think that's like the thing. Like, I. I want to acknowledge that different companies have different cultures around design. So for the book, I also interviewed Randy Hunt, who is at Notion, and he mentioned that his team is very prototype forward, and they just like, kind of play around all day with these different ideas, and they're pretty High infidelity. And. And if your company has a culture where that is totally viable and you can communicate ideas through, you know, like, these are a spectrum of prototypes. Like, these are different options. It's really about making sure that you're putting people in the right headspace to give the kind of feedback that you're looking for. And so I think it's important to be flexible when you're working on a vision. Like, you need to make sure that you're acknowledging the context of the company that you're within. And there's only so much that you can really push the design culture. And you also have to recognize that some design cultures, if you show up with like a low fidelity wireframe, they just react like design leaders, in particular at some companies, maybe like, more agency type folks will like, look at that and be like, what the heck is this? You know, and so I want to acknowledge that there are some places where the energy will be different if you bring, like, something that's not as high fidelity. And you will have to figure out ways to work around that. So if you are in a company where, you know, high fidelity is kind of the way that everybody operates, then, yes, like, you have to then make sure that you're doing a little bit more to show. Like, just because I'm showing this one idea does not mean that is the end all be all. You can show different options. You can have like, a little note that says replacement only. Like, you can have, like, you know, wireframe text. But everything else looks almost done. Another thing that I remember Maika doing really well when we worked together at Asana was that Maika would make the fidelity look really nice, but would add this, like, blue overlay to the screen. It was very obvious that this is, like, a future that we could have, but it's not done. Simple things like, yeah, like a color overlay can change people's mindsets. So even if you need to, you know, work in that, that fidelity, there's. There's ways around it.
- [32:53]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
I love the blue overlay because it almost becomes a trademark at that point. Like, the third time somebody sees it, they already understand, like, oh, this is just a potential feature. Like, you don't even have to give the context maybe.
- [33:02]
Kat Swift
Yeah, I. After I definitely started taking that after I saw Micah present that way, I was like, oh, my God, you are so good. You're so great. Honestly, she was a huge inspiration for me in terms of learning how to do better at storytelling, envisioning. And there's so many people that I Admire that. I got to interview for this book and I was just, like, so grateful for their time and their expertise.
- [33:23]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
Any other highlights from those interviews? When you were reflecting on what should go in the book and you're kind of just like, who's really impacted me on my journey? Or what are the little nuggets that I've taken from different people? Anything else that stands out that we should talk about?
- [33:36]
Kat Swift
I really loved talking to managers of design, of staff designers. And what was really fun was getting more perspective about why we might, as staff designers, end up in situations where our managers are kind of like, breathing down our backs. So Jess Dale was one of the other people that I interviewed, and Jess is a senior manager who's worked with a ton of staff designers. And yeah, what I really appreciated about, about our conversation was that point of Jess basically is in all these meetings where they have to, like, share updates with other people about the work that my team is doing, for example, and, like, other teams that, you know, report to Jess. And I remember in my first role as a staff designer just being kind of, like, irritated about having to do, like, you know, a weekly status update and just, like, not understanding why I couldn't just, like, focus on the work itself and, like, why I had to, like, make sure to always list out everything that I was up to. And now I get that, you know, these people are really busy. They do a lot of context switching. They just aren't going to be able to, like, look in slack and see, like, what you're. What you're working on. Like, they actually do need the summary. And it's actually, like, really important to make sure that you're managing up as part of your process. Because the more that you're proactively communicating what you're doing, that also builds trust and they don't have to, you know, breathe down your back and, like, ask you you or, like, ping you for, like, updates about things. So now I work really hard to make sure that I am proactively communicating where everything's at so that my manager doesn't have to, like, track me down and, like, figure out what I'm up to anymore. And that's actually also something that's like, really important for your own promo packet. For example, like those bullet points that you're keeping track of, you know, every week, if you are also tracking the impact at the end of your project, then you can literally just list that out. And then when it comes promo time, you just have everything you need to actually hopefully propose yourself for that Promo.
- [35:36]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
Okay, so we talked about the definition kind of side of things.
- [35:40]
Rid (podcast host/producer)
You touched on a little bit of the presenting.
- [35:42]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
But I want to make sure that we're covering everything there because I know it's kind of a lot and the storytelling piece is a big part of what it looks like to build this influence as a staff designer. So let's assume that people listening to this are kind of familiar with the basics. You know, setting context, leading with user problems, connecting to business outcomes, like those kind of core boxes. Let's just build on top of that. So what else are some of the best staff designers doing when presenting their ideas?
- [36:11]
Kat Swift
Yes, I definitely think that they are figuring out the format that will resonate most with their audience. So when it comes to actually presenting information, they're thinking about, am I going to have to present this to the head of product? Does the head of product prefer a write up or do the. They prefer a presentation, do they prefer a clickable prototype? And they're also thinking about how this information is going to live on beyond them, essentially. So like, where is it going to exist and how do I make sure it's accessible to lots of people? I also got to interview Kyle Turman and one thing that Kyle said that I really appreciated was I used to just think that when I was done with the vision, the work was done. But actually distribution is the most important part of the process. Like, don't share the work. Nobody knows it happened. So you have to be sure that you're communicating it. So can you get a spot in Design All Hands? Can you get a spot in your company's All Hands meeting? Can you go around and meet with the different teams that you maybe previously ideated with and come back and show them the result of the work that you did? There's lots of conversations that need to be had so that you are, you know, actually making sure that people are aware that the vision exists, exists. And if you do a good job with that, then you end up in a situation where your work is being referenced over and over again. So I mentioned that when I was at Asana, I worked on a vision. We had actually done an mvp. We built an MVP and then I made the vision because we had a lot of customer feedback that we were getting, but we couldn't really figure out how to prioritize that. And then leadership was also kind of like, of course, providing their opinion, which they have a right to do. But we didn't really feel like we had our own opinion as a team. So we were just kind of like, swaying with the wind. And I observed that, and I mentioned to my PM that it might be a good idea for us to create a vision because we could then have more opinions about what we were doing and we could own our own destiny, essentially. And so she really liked the idea of spending some time on that. And basically by the time we got to the end of that process, we had a bunch of ideas that we could decide how to prioritize on the roadmap. And some of those did get more immediately prioritized. So I think now one of the things we worked on immediately after that was being able to automatically calculate the progress of goals so that you can kind of have them ladder up and you don't have to, like, invest so much energy in manually looking through and seeing. Well, my five sub goals are 25% done. So that means like, whatever, you know, like, that's a lot of busy work. And so that was like the immediate work that got prioritized. But then there were other things that were in that vision. And that vision was two to five. Five years, I believe, was the range that we were looking at. I left that company, I think, in 2022 and then in 2023. So like a full year after I left, there was a feature that got launched that was in that vision. So I think it was gold templates or something like that. And I was like, oh my God, like, that's so cool. Like, I predicted the future. And yeah, you did something right after you make a vision, you know that it is impactful because of things like that. Like, people continue to reference it, you predict the future appropriately, you see features that you thought of way back when out in the world, several years later. That is how you know that a vision was successful. So that was a huge part of it. And yeah, we went around and presented the information in lots of different forums. I remember I definitely put it in different locations that would make it easy for people to find. So I attached it to a bunch of different documents that seemed relevant. And yeah, I made sure that it was just accessible to people who may not know who I am. I did also record a video presentation. So, like, that was also part of it was making sure that in addition to the presentation itself, I actually had a video walkthrough of it explaining all the content that was in the presentation. So, yeah, that was like.
- [40:00]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
And that's just a doc. Like, that's just a doc. Then you're linking to that doc in different places, right?
- [40:05]
Kat Swift
Exactly, yeah, yeah. So it was like a Slideshow, because we had a very unique, unique type of customer within the asanasphere. And so that's the thing you have to think about as part of your formatting. Can you get away with a prototype? Like, do you have one customer and everyone at the company knows who that customer is? Or do you need to actually do a slideshow? Because you need to kind of prime people to understand, like, who is this customer? We don't actually know who they are. So the format will also be determined by, like, the context of the content that you need to deliver. So, yeah, we just had a slideshow, and, like, we would link to that from different places.
- [40:40]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
I've never combined those in that way.
- [40:41]
Rid (podcast host/producer)
And I'm so pro video in everything, but that's really genius.
- [40:45]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
Like, in my brain, it was very distinct. You're presenting something live, or you're, like, writing a doc or embedding a deck, but having some kind of an artifact that you can link to anywhere, which is kind of everything, including you actually talking through a presentation. That's a really smart tactic.
- [41:03]
Kat Swift
Oh, thank you. Yeah, I love asynchronous video. It is. Is one of my favorite additions to the work sphere, and I use it so often. Yeah, I use it for vision purposes so that I can add color to all of the work that I've already done. I also use it when I want to get feedback from members of my team. So, like, explaining like, oh, maybe I vibe coded a prototype and I want to show what I learned about it. Or, like, I want to get feedback on something that I've been working on lately, like, asynchronous video. It's such a powerful tool. Cool.
- [41:34]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
I've committed the next few years of my life to working on it, so I definitely agree.
- [41:39]
Rid (podcast host/producer)
I'm a big believer in the power of video to explain my thinking as a designer. So when it's time to get feedback, I'll drop a loom link in Slack and another link to a Figma prototype, and feedback will be scattered everywhere. And, I mean, it's a mess. So I'm building the product that I've always wanted to exist, and it's called Inflight. You can kind of think of it like an Async crit. It's an easy way to share a video walkthrough along with an interactive prototype or whatever you're designing, and then AI interviews the people on your team to get you the feedback that you need and organizes everything for you in a beautiful insights page. So right now, I'm only giving Access to Dive Club listeners. So if you want to be one of the first to use Inflight, head to Dive Club Inflight to claim your spot.
- [42:25]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
I want to go back to something else you talked about, which is the momentum piece of the puzzle, because I don't know about you. Like, I've been in this situation many times where I have a vision, right. I've broken it down into milestones because I want to make it feel like there are concrete stepping stones and it doesn't have to be this big upfront investment.
- [42:43]
Rid (podcast host/producer)
And everyone's like, yeah, let's do it. And then we ship the first one.
- [42:47]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
Maybe two milestones, and you're feeling pretty good. But they were very much so. Just setting up the real North Star. And then over time, you kind of lose momentum and you only get about 40% of the way through your vision, and you actually end up shipping something that you wouldn't have never even designed in isolation.
- [43:05]
Rid (podcast host/producer)
It was just a setup to get.
- [43:07]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
To the real act that you wanted to bring to life. Does that resonate? And do you have any advice for other designers in that situation?
- [43:15]
Kat Swift
Yeah, finishing the swing is usually what I refer to the ideal situation, which we do not always end up doing, I think. Yeah, it is. It is a common issue that teams do not finish the swing. You get through step one or step two of the, like, longer term, you know, roadmap or the vision, and then some other priority comes up. I think that is part of why I think you need to make sure that you're involving product and that ultimately you tie as much of the work that you're doing to the business goals. Because the more that you can connect that work to the expected outcome, then it will be more likely that you do get investment. Longer term. There are definitely going to be times where the company level strategy changes. Like, I've. I've worked at companies where they're kind of like, zigzagging, you know, and like one year, it's this, one year, it's that. So you will not always be able to control that. I think that in those kinds of situations where maybe, for example, something seemed like it was relevant and now it's not, I will have a discussion with the team about how we want to approach it, and I will try to name the pattern that, like, hey, we, we didn't finish the swing here. Why is that? And. And do we still feel like it's worth investing in the longer term? So I think one thing that designers can do is they can bring up the vision that the team created at points where it's relevant. So maybe you are starting to think about roadmap planning and you can have a conversation there. And if people are kind of like, no, no, no, like we don't want to go to iteration three, I think then you can ask that question of like, why not? Was there something missing? Do we need to iterate on where we were trying to go? And that can open up a really healthy conversation about how to move forward. But I also think that when I'm making a vision, one thing that I try to do is I try to think about ways to make it so that I maybe can, I don't know, I think there's a couple of approaches you can do. Like the Lego approach where it's like, all right, all these features that I'm talking about, they're bite sized chunks of value that we're providing to customers that build up to like, you know, like a Megazord, awesome product. But maybe it's less about like phase one, phase two, and it's more like customers should be able to perform this action, customer should be able to perform this particular action. So it's less about like, oh, the presentation will look like this at this particular stage and then like that. I think usually when I'm making a vision, I'm more concentrating on like what value is the customer receiving and in what ways. And then we should like figure out, you know, at what phase are we delivering this particular chunk of value. So it's less about the presentation over time, if that makes sense. And it's more about like the ideal real services that we are going to deliver to people in the two to five year range. So like I, I actually didn't like illustrate much of a, like, okay, how do we get to that two years from now? I was mostly just like, okay, so in the future you should be able to automatically calculate progress on a goal and you should be able to have templates and you should be able to have this and that and this and these are all different types of value that we're providing to people. And then when it came to project number one, which was the calculation, then I could be like, okay, so like if we just look at this slice of value, how do we deliver that more immediately? So I think I built out the vision in a way where I didn't have to worry as much about phasing, if that makes sense. So I wasn't as bad when some things did not get prioritized.
- [46:42]
Rid (podcast host/producer)
Hey, quick note, if you want to go even deeper into visioning and all of the ways to be successful as an ic. Kat has a new book called the Staff Designer, which I'll link in the show notes. And also she has one of the most popular courses on Maple, even all about building influence and leading as an individual contributor. And if you head to Dive Club Cat, that's C A T T, then you can get a hundred dollars off her next cohort.
- [47:09]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
Okay, now let's jump into the interview. When you're kind of outlining what this potential future would look like and something as concrete as automatically calculating the status of a goal, how much UI are you having even figured out at that stage? And I guess part of me is thinking about that in terms of visual.
- [47:26]
Rid (podcast host/producer)
Fidelity, but also just the fidelity of.
- [47:28]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
The concept in your own brain. Is it enough to say, hey, there's a target area here, there's something here, and when the time is right, we'll figure it out, and it's a part of this broader plan, or is the expectation that you actually would have some pretty clear understanding of how that specific piece would work?
- [47:43]
Kat Swift
Yeah, I think the closer you are to the time frame that you're looking to envision, the higher fidelity you can be. So if you're looking at, like six months from now and you're looking at like one service that you're hoping to deliver to a customer, like, if it was. If we were just doing a vision for the future of automatic goal progress calculation, then I think I would have been much higher in fidelity than what I did for, like, what are we doing with this product overall? Like, this whole area in two to five years, like, what's that going to be? Like that. I just have no idea where, you know, we're going to be able to go in, like, five years. And so every illustration that I did was like, midfi at most, like, it still looks pretty solid, and it generally communicated the idea, but it was essentially a series of concepts that were like, you know, we definitely need to dig into each of these, but we essentially were proposing to leadership that they give us the support and the time to dig into these because we think these features are going to resonate most with people or these concepts will resonate. So, yeah, I think in my case, I gave myself enough direction in terms of the visuals to say, well, this is what the outcome will be for our customers. But we don't actually know enough information to have it look super duper detailed. And we. We need the time to do that. And so, yeah, that was the ask from Leadership, but, yeah, if you're looking at, like, one year out or you're looking at six months away, then the fidelity is probably going to be a lot higher and you'll probably have more confidence in what your outcome will be.
- [49:12]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
When you're thinking about the ideal form format for a vision, I'm sure there are some key variables that you're considering. We've now discussed the timeline as a big one. That makes a heck of a lot of sense to me. What are some of the other things that you would be considering that might make it so that, you know, this vision over here looks one way, but this vision over here looks quite different. And if there are any examples that we could point to, that'd be awesome.
- [49:35]
Kat Swift
There's definitely, like, the scale, the scope of the product area that you're thinking about. So when I was was working with this startup that was called Merit, and they're called Scout now, one of the services they were trying to provide to customers was this idea of, like, being able to interview once you may have seen some of these kinds of products, where it's like you interview one time and, like, your answers get shared with a bunch of hiring managers. And then, you know, the hiring manager's like, I like that person and I want to talk to that person. And so essentially when I was working with them, you know, they just came to me with the request to, like, create this, like, hiring manager experience and then like, to create this, like, common application experience. And so what I did is I looked at both of those and I was like, all right, so you did tell me to just, you know, deliver the design, but this is where it could go in the future. And like, I think, you know, if like, the ideal version of this would be this particular experience. And in that case, I will say that I was, like, being pretty scratchy about the ui, mostly because I was trying to, to communicate to them what I think they were asking me for. And I didn't have a lot of confidence yet. So I didn't want to invest a lot of energy into, like, making it look super fancy when I didn't really understand yet what the idea was. So I think with that project, for example, like, I definitely was very prescriptive about the flow itself and, like, the steps in the flow. But because I didn't really know if, like, what I was thinking was what they were thinking, I just didn't have the confidence to invest a lot of visual design energy. So I think those are some examples of things that I tend to, to think about. I'm thinking about the timescale. I'm thinking about the complexity of the flow. So am I thinking about an entire product area or an entire product and how, you know, this product will fit together, or am I just thinking about, like, a service that I'm delivering, like, a very specific series of actions that a customer's performing? And so that will, of course, determine the amount of content that's in the presentation. And then. Yeah. Am I confident that I understand what we're trying to do here, or do I have a lot of open questions? And if I have a lot of questions, then it's going to be lower fidelity.
- [51:40]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
Before I let you go, I have a little bit of a challenging question, and I want to reflect a little bit on your journey. As someone who has thought a lot about how to teach these concepts, both through your course and writing this book, and from my own experience, man, it's a whole other ball game to figure out how to explain something in a way that makes sense. And I end up learning more about my own course craft through the act of figuring out how to teach than doing the work itself.
- [52:06]
Rid (podcast host/producer)
My hunch is that you probably have.
- [52:08]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
Had at least a somewhat similar experience. So through this process of figuring out how do I break down these ideas and figure out what matters most? What's the main way that your thinking has evolved in terms of what makes for a great staff designer?
- [52:26]
Kat Swift
Gosh. Yeah. I had no idea how much of the job was. Was managing emotions and teaching until I had to sit down and think about teaching other people what I did not know before I got the job, if that makes sense.
- [52:42]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
Yeah.
- [52:42]
Kat Swift
So, yeah, of course there's craft stuff, right? Like, there's. I spent a lot of time in design tools. Like, I'm in Figma, I'm in Cursor sometimes, like, playing around with ideas. You know, as designers, we've always negotiated with product and engineering, but, like, I have to deeply understand the motivations of everyone around me, me, and then I have to essentially figure out how to write myself. When we get into a corner where we're kind of like, well, what the heck do we do now? And really, like, figuring out how to equip myself with all the information necessary to look at the context and to, you know, figure out the next step, it's really like you're. You're in, like, a cave, and you're just, like, slowly making your way through. And, like, your light, you know, like your flashlight keeps flickering on and off, and you're just trying to keep it going. Like, that is how it feels most of the time. And, yeah, I think I had to get really, really comfortable with ambiguity and helping other people to make that shift. You know, from being told what to do to being comfortable with the fact that you may not fully know what the actual answer is yet, but you have an idea about how you might get there. I think that was a big part of the change for me personally. And then I've been. Been really working to teach people how to do that. So a lot of the time that I'm in my class, we do a lot of workshopping of problems. And, yeah, a lot of the problems come down to people kind of, like, not fully understanding the people around them. And, like, we'll kind of, like, I'll ask questions and, like, we'll talk through, you know, how are you communicating with your peers right now or, like, with people above you? How often are you meeting with them? Like, we do a lot of, like, workshopping of things that, like, they almost feel like it's work therapy. It's almost work therapy. But, yeah, it's like a process to change the way that you think it about. About the work. Right. So, yeah, I love having those conversations. And I. It's. It's been really cool to reflect on my own career because I see how much I've personally grown over the past several years as I've been practicing as a staff designer versus where I was at before. Like, I am so much more focused on how I fit within the broader, you know, story of the company itself versus, like, me just spending a lot of time thinking about, like, oh, my PM is not delivering fast enough, or, like, oh, I'm not getting that promotion, or things like that. Like, I was very much like, me, me, me, me, me. And, like, other people are not as good at the job as me. And now I'm like, okay, like, what is happening in this person's life? Like, what's happening over there? Like, what are the pressures that everyone is experiencing? Like, now I know much more about, like, mapping these kinds of things out, and that's through a lot of conversation, obviously, with other people that I've been able to, like, learn and absorb a lot of that. But, yeah, there's so much context, and it's been fun to, like, learn to ride the wave a little bit more. More.
- [55:21]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
Well, I'm sure a lot of people listening probably resonate with this idea of feeling like they're in a cave. I know that I do all the time just wandering around with a flashlight that has good days and bad days. So I know one thing, you've been a heck of a flashlight today and really appreciate you coming on and talking and sharing a little bit of the journey and all of the wisdom that you've accumulated. And a personal note for me is even really understanding the importance of understanding what motivates people. You know, it's like it's a people game. It's a people game game and it's something that, I don't know is almost like a little bit taboo to talk about at times, but it's kind of everything, you know. So I appreciate your willingness to get really tactical about exactly how do we phrase this and how do we reach out to this person. And I'm sure it's going to make a big impact for people. So thanks, Kat.
- [56:05]
Kat Swift
Of course. Yeah, I mean, politicking, it feels really crappy at first and I used to be very anti politicking and now that I understand much more about how it works, I actually think it's super interesting and I hope that folks listening start to feel that way as well. Yeah. Good luck to everyone.
- [56:21]
Host (possibly a podcast host or interviewer)
Thanks.
- [56:22]
Rid (podcast host/producer)
Before I let you go, I want to take just one minute to run you through my favorite products because I'm constantly asked what's in my stack. Framer is how I build websites. Genway is how I do research. Granola is how I take notes during crit. Jitter is how I animated my designs. Lovable is how I build my ideas in code. Marvin is how I find design inspiration. Paper is how I design like a creative. And Raycast is my shortcut every step of the way. Now I've hand selected these companies so that I can do these episodes full time. So by far the number one way to support the show is to check them out. You can find the full list at Dive Club Slash Partners.