How to be great at systems thinking 💡

Summary

Dive Club 🤿: Episode Summary

Title: How to be Great at Systems Thinking 💡
Host: Ridd
Release Date: February 4, 2025

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Introduction to Systems Thinking

In this enlightening episode of Dive Club, host Ridd delves deep into the concept of systems thinking—a pivotal skill for designers aiming to create cohesive, scalable, and impactful products. Systems thinking transcends isolated problem-solving, encouraging designers to consider the broader ecosystem in which their designs exist.

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The Essence of Systems Thinking

Ridd opens the discussion by highlighting a response from Balint, the co-founder of Craft Docs, emphasizing the significance of systems thinking in design:

Balint (00:06): "The most important thing for me, which I found super powerful in Designers, is what I call systems thinking. There are designers who make so beautiful animations and make the screen look like, like you want to lick it. But if you don't understand how things connect effortlessly and things get quite complicated quite soon..."

This underscores that while aesthetics are vital, understanding the interconnectedness of design elements ensures longevity and functionality.

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Common Misconceptions and Clarifications

Ridd introduces a conversation with Rio Lu, the head of design at Cursor and an early designer at Notion, addressing the often vague understanding of systems thinking:

Rio Lu (00:57): "Knee jerk reaction is, yeah, I checked that box."

Ridd (00:40): "But there's also this little part of me that wonders, what does that really mean?"

This sets the stage for clarifying systems thinking by first exploring what it is not.

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Systems Thinking vs. Linear Problem Solving

Joel Lewenstein, head of product design at Anthropic, contrasts systems thinking with the conventional approach many designers take:

Joel Lewenstein (00:57): "It's like the default mode for a lot of designers when they work on problems is they want to kind of, okay, let's focus on this one problem and then make a really, really good solution for that."

Joel Lewenstein (01:19): "When Notion, it was mostly system thinking, building the blocks. When you're building a product that serves so many different groups of users, so many different use cases, you can't think in one way or the other way. You need to come up with good systems to tie up all this."

Joel emphasizes that focusing solely on individual problems can lead to fragmented solutions, whereas systems thinking fosters a unified framework accommodating diverse user needs.

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Case Study: Notion's Systematic Approach

Delving deeper, Joel elaborates on Notion's design philosophy:

Joel Lewenstein (02:12): "You can't build single purpose features in Notion and try to slap it on top of it because it will make the systems more complex. How we're thinking about how to solve these problems is we build systems to kind of wrap these different use cases up."

This approach ensures that each feature integrates seamlessly into the existing system, avoiding redundancy and maintaining simplicity.

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Anticipating Future Needs through Systems Thinking

Ridd discusses how systems thinkers anticipate future product requirements by understanding the foundational blocks:

Joel Lewenstein (02:28): "Ideally the system has the fewest parts that does the most things you want."

Ridd (03:00): "Even if you're not designing a general-purpose tool like Notion, the best Designers dig deep to understand root level issues instead of solving each new problem as it sprouts."

This proactive mindset not only addresses current challenges but also prepares the product for scalable growth and diverse functionalities.

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Practical Applications of Systems Thinking

Joel provides a concrete example from his work at Anthropic with the product Claude:

Cat Small (03:10): "I think the best features are the ones that solve multiple problems at once, that are simple abstractions that can grow into ones that solve future problems."

He contrasts local solutions with primitive abstractions:

Cat Small (04:05): "You could just have a collapse button that takes long documents and hides them in the chat. That would be like a local solution to a problem. But it is not a sort of compounding abstract concept that you can build off of a primitive in the product."

This distinction highlights the importance of designing foundational elements that can be extended, rather than ad-hoc fixes.

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Collaboration and Cross-Team Synergy

Dennis shares his experience at Asana, illustrating the collaborative aspect of systems thinking:

Dennis (04:24): "I was basically combining these two archetypes into this project because it turned out that because we had all these overlaps with other teams, I had to go talk to a bunch of people and figure out how their product areas worked."

Effective systems thinking often necessitates cross-functional collaboration to ensure that the system accommodates various perspectives and requirements.

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Maintaining Simplicity in Complex Systems

Ridd recounts his experience at Maven, emphasizing the balance between expanding features and preserving simplicity:

Ridd (05:14): "I could have designed that set of screens in isolation, but in the back of my head, I knew that we would probably want to surface some of these actions in future onboarding checklists..."

By envisioning how components can be reused and interoperate across different contexts, designers maintain a streamlined and intuitive user experience despite the system's complexity.

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Strategic Impact of Systems Thinking

Cat Small highlights the strategic role of systems thinking in shaping product direction:

Cat Small (05:53): "I think it's designer jobs to say, like, hey, there's a future here... finding the solution that becomes one of the Lego pieces... is how strategy is shaped."

Designers, through systems thinking, contribute not just to immediate solutions but also to the long-term vision and adaptability of the product.

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Real-World Impact: GitHub Sponsors Example

Kathy Zhang shares a success story that exemplifies the power of systems thinking:

Kathy Zhang (09:09): "The vehicle for it ended up being a YAML file that you initiate in your GitHub repo. And it was very clear that this was like a building block for something bigger."

This example illustrates how foundational design decisions can pave the way for scalable and versatile features, reinforcing the essence of systems thinking.

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Conclusion: Embracing Systems Thinking for Design Excellence

Ridd wraps up the episode by reinforcing the importance of systems thinking in creating lasting and impactful designs. By focusing on foundational elements, fostering collaboration, and anticipating future needs, designers can build products that are not only beautiful and functional but also resilient and adaptable.

Ridd (09:36): "Building block for something bigger. I think that's a pretty good model for systems thinking and hopefully this episode made the whole concept a bit more practical."

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Key Takeaways

• Systems Thinking Defined: Understanding the interconnectedness of design elements to create cohesive and scalable products.
• Avoiding Fragmentation: Steering clear of isolated solutions that can complicate the system.
• Foundational Abstractions: Designing primitives that serve as building blocks for future functionalities.
• Collaborative Design: Engaging with cross-functional teams to accommodate diverse needs within the system.
• Strategic Vision: Using systems thinking to shape long-term product strategy and adaptability.
• Real-World Applications: Success stories like Notion and GitHub Sponsors demonstrate the effectiveness of systems thinking.

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By embracing systems thinking, designers can elevate their craft, ensuring that their creations are not only aesthetically pleasing but also functionally robust and adaptable to evolving user needs and market trends.

Transcript

[Host]

I asked Balint, the co founder of Craft Docs, what's the main thing that you're looking for when hiring a designer? Here's his answer.

[Balint]

The most important thing for me, which I found super powerful in Designers, is what I call systems thinking. There are designers make so beautiful animations and make the screen look like, like you want to lick it. But if you don't understand how things connect effortlessly and things get quite complicated quite soon, even you know, with a note taking app, right, there's some serious depth inside of there. And once you start to untangle the problem, you get this dismissed.

[Host]

The value of systems thinking comes up a lot on this show and my.

[Rio Lu]

Knee jerk reaction is, yeah, I checked that box.

[Host]

But there's also this little part of me that wonders, what does that really mean? So the goal of this episode is to make systems thinking a bit more practical. And I think the easiest way to start is to look at what systems thinking is not.

[Joel Lewenstein]

It's like the default mode for a lot of designers when they work on problems is they want to kind of, okay, let's focus on this one problem and then make a really, really good solutions for, for that. And then we add all the delight and all the crazy craft on top of it. They focus on this thing. They come up with like the ideal single model that does everything within that bubble.

[Host]

That's Rio Lu, who recently joined as the head of design at Cursor. But he's also one of my favorite systems thinkers because he was one of the earliest designers at Notion.

[Joel Lewenstein]

When Notion, it was mostly system thinking, building the blocks. When you're building a product that serves so many different groups of users, so many different use cases, you can't think in one way or the other way. You need to come up with good systems to tie up all this. Different people's needs, people's mental models of how their tools work, different variations of doing, say, project management. But then it's like still kind of built with the same ideas, primitives, building blocks.

[Host]

You can think of most digital products as a collection of blocks, but if you solve each product problem in isolation, then you'll end up creating a new feature or in this case, new block for each solution.

[Joel Lewenstein]

You can't build single purpose features in Notion and try to slap it on top of it because it will make the systems more complex. How we're thinking about how to solve these problems is we build systems to kind of wrap these different use cases up.

[Host]

Even if you're not designing a general purpose tool like Notion, the best Designers dig deep to understand root level issues instead of solving each new problem as it sprouts. That's what allows systems thinkers to see the entire set of blocks as well as anticipate future product needs. From that vantage point, success isn't just solving all the problems. It's figuring out the broader product puzzle that using the least number of unique.

[Joel Lewenstein]

Blocks, ideally the system has the fewest parts that does the most things you want.

[Host]

Let's hear from Joel Lewenstein next. He's the head of product design at Anthropic and he gives a great example of systems thinking using their product Claude.

[Cat Small]

I think the best features are the ones that solve multiple problems at once, that are simple abstractions that can grow into ones that solve future problems. And so part of shaping strategy, I think is proposing a solution that is not just let's take artifacts as an example because we just talked about it. There is a user problem, which is that it's hard to write documents with Claude because it takes up your entire screen. You can't actually see Claude's commentary, etc. You could find 10 different solutions that would solve that problem. Some of those solutions are the seeds of a new concept, a new abstraction, a new thing that you can build on. And I think it's designers jobs to see that and advocate for it. So you know, to paint stupid ends of the spectrum, you could just have a collapse button that takes long documents and hides them in the chat. That would be like a local solution to a problem. But it is not a sort of compounding abstract concept that you can build off of a primitive in the product.

[Host]

I love how Joel creates the distinction between a local solution and a primitive. Because as designers our projects almost always begin as a local problem. It's up to us to abstract the right primitive. And that might involve a lot of cross team collaboration. It reminds me of when Cat Small talked about being a platformer at Asana.

[Dennis]

There's like the architect who's like a systems designer, who's kind of creating and figuring out these like complex systems. And then there's the platformer who's trying to figure out like, how do you actually create systems that other people can actually use and lean on. I was basically combining these two archetypes into this project because it turned out that because we had all these overlaps with other teams, I had to go talk to a bunch of people and figure out how their product areas worked. And we had to agree on like, where was this idea, like where was this goal object going to go within their space. So, like, if we're looking at a project and a project is contributing to a goal in some way, what does that mean? What does that look like? Where does the goal show up? Where does the project show up? On the other side, how do we represent these things as, you know, like components within a system?

[Host]

Zooming out to consider the full system is how you preserve simplicity as your feature surface area grows. An example from my time at Maven is when I was working on settings. Now, I could have designed that set of screens in isolation, but in the back of my head, I knew that we would probably want to surface some of these actions in future onboarding checklists, and maybe even in modals on different feature pages. And so I thought through this interoperable component system that would allow us to easily showcase each configuration in ways that I hadn't even thought of yet. And I think that's part of what Joel was getting at.

[Cat Small]

It's just keep the whole picture in mind and keep this sort of, like, holistic product experience in mind.

[Host]

But systems thinking is so much more than components. So I want to return to something else that Joel said too, where he hinted at the role that systems thinking plays in how designers shape product strategy.

[Cat Small]

I think it's designer jobs to say, like, hey, there's a future here. Like, if we do this, here's what this opens up for us in the future. We could help you write code better. We could visualize code. Maybe one day there's multiple files. Maybe one day you're doing dynamic editing with artifacts and actually like, engaging both in the chat and in the document. And I think, like, finding the right solution, but also finding the solution that becomes one of the Lego pieces. One of the building blocks is how strategy is shaped.

[Rio Lu]

Real quick message, and then we can jump back into it. There's one piece of interaction design that's been referenced like, four different times on this show. It's the split screen in the Amy Calendar app.

[Host]

And it really is one of the.

[Rio Lu]

Most impressive pieces of design that I've seen, and it's a product that I use every day.

[Host]

But here's the thing.

[Rio Lu]

Dennis, the designer, said they wouldn't have shipped the split screen interactions without their Play prototype.

[Host]

And it makes sense.

[Rio Lu]

I mean, you could never create something like this in Figma, but that's where Play comes in. It allows you to create ultra realistic.

[Host]

Prototypes because for the first time, you.

[Rio Lu]

Can design interactions with native iOS gestures.

[Host]

And Apple's core animation.

[Rio Lu]

So if you want to raise your.

[Host]

Your ceiling for interaction design Head to.

[Rio Lu]

Dive Club Play and you can try it out today. For years I've been paying for third party website analytics, but I can finally cancel those subscriptions because Framer just released their all new analytics dashboard. It's built into every plan and it's even fully GDPR compliant without the need for a cookie banner. That way you can get a complete breakdown of how your site is performing, including live visitor activity bounce rates. You can see breakdowns by country and even get a glimpse into referrers and UTM sources. You can then filter data automatically by.

[Host]

Clicking on any of the individual metrics.

[Rio Lu]

Like users on a desktop who found your site through Google. It's super powerful, but most importantly it's built directly into your dashboard so you can't beat that. It's just another reason why I tell everyone to use Framer for their next website and you can start using it today. Just head to Dive Club Framer Framer.

[Host]

We've talked a lot in past episodes about the importance of translating your design ideas into the language of the business, and it might be possible to get buy in for your ideas based on the simplicity of the ux. But you know what's really effective? When you can lead with the ROI of a feature and show how it unlocks new opportunities in the product. For instance, I wanted to redesign the syllabus editor at Maven for like two whole years and I failed multiple times to get buy in. My breakthrough though was showing how it could unlock new types of market marketing opportunities for instructors, like maybe allowing students to preview lessons on the landing page. Now not only is the team getting more bang for their buck, but the more service area that your idea touches, the more people have the potential to be excited about it because all of a sudden it's easier for them to see how it impacts their slice of the product or org. It reminds me of when Kathy Zhang gave the backstory for GitHub sponsors.

[Kathy Zhang]

I think one good example of this that ended up becoming real was how spot GitHub sponsors. That was a project that Kat was the design lead for that she took end to end and the first initial doc was just like, okay, how do people set up funding to begin with? And the vehicle for it ended up being a YAML file that you initiate in your GitHub repo. And it was very clear that this was like a building block for something bigger.

[Host]

Building block for something bigger. I think that's a pretty good model for systems thinking and hopefully this episode made the whole concept a bit more practical. That's all for now, though. I will see you next week.