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Divergent Conversations
Episode 125 (Season 4): Hidden Shame of ADHD: Restlessness, Relationships, and Post-Discovery Impact
00:44:54
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- [00:01]
A
Megan, Anna and I are so excited to have a repeat sponsor who's supporting the Divergent Conversations podcast. The Landmark College Success center, located in San Mateo, California, provides academic support, executive functioning coaching and transition to college skills training for neurodivergent learners, both in person and online. A subsidiary of Landmark College, Landmark. Edu, the world's first and foremost college for neurodivergent students, the Success center is equipped to put you or your student on your path to success. Learn more at Landmark. Edu SuccessCenter. That's Landmark. Edu SuccessCenter. Hey everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick cassell.
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B
And I'm Dr. Neff.
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A
And during these episodes we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening. Hey everyone, welcome back to Divergent Conversations. We are experiencing, talking about post, post discovery experiences and the identities that we are kind of sifting through and making sense of the psychological experiences of discovering that you're a DHD later in life. Today we're going to tackle adhd and we want to really send a special shout out to all the therapists out there because we would not be here without them, including our own, who helped us through our own journeys of identification later in life. And our sponsor, the Jane App for Healthcare, which supports both mental and medical professionals as a medical records system. And we wanted to choose this platform because of integrity and because of how they show up in the therapist and medical communities and how receptive they are to feedback and support and trying to be on the cutting edge of doing things differently. And that really made a big difference for us when we were deciding on how we wanted to move forward. So special that shout out to all of the therapists who are using that software and doing the work.
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B
It is interesting, I'm noticing. So I'm listening to perhaps more podcasts than is helpful for my mental health right now. Speaking of mental health, I'm listening to a lot of political podcasts because I just can't not. And I'm noticing how many are plugging ads for mental health, especially like the big box mental health. And it's, it's interesting. I, I like that they're talking about mental health when they're not a mental health app. But I'm very like aware that, yeah, just a lot of people are Struggling right now, mental health wise. And so I was noticing that how other apps are talking about mental health and in our choice. Yeah, we wanted to go with a platform that we really believed in and that we think supports the therapists who are like doing really good hard work. Like, I know a therapists are really burning out right now.
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A
100%. 100%. And if you are going to go down that road and test them out, use code DC pod and you will get two free months to kind of mess around with it and decide if it's the right platform for you. All righty, Here we go. Adhd.
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B
We adhd.
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A
Here it is. You know how many times will we reference autism in this conversation? Do you want to say over under six?
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B
I think we should make a game of it and where people can message in and tell us you diverge to autism X amount of. And let's not actually count, but let's try to estimate at the end of the conversation how many times did we make the ADHD conversation actually about autism?
- [03:49]
A
Okay, challenge accepted. So if you listen to our last episode, we were kind of looking back at what it's like to discover that you're autistic later on in life and what it's been like to unpack, as Megan Anna said, pull out those dresser drawers and kind of reorganize neuroqueer, perhaps take a look at all of your identities and the intersectionalities. I wanted to wear Nana talk about adhd, which I think is a fascinating one for us because we are both audi hders. Yet as we've discussed, sometimes we default to autism on this podcast. I'd say 93% of the time, and that's a conservative number. But I was diagnosed ADHD before I was diagnosed autistic. And you were in reverse.
- [04:35]
B
Yeah, I was in reverse.
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A
Okay.
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B
But I think yours is more common. It's more common for the ADHD to be caught first.
- [04:43]
A
Yeah. So do you want to share what that was like for you to have that experience? Like autistic first, ADHD second. What was it like post discovery when you were like ADHD as well?
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B
Yeah, that I just started feeling partly. I felt like I was starting to get greedy with my labels. I was like, sure, because. And partly because autism was a big one to take on a big identity. There was a lot of kind of. I guess I don't want to say proving, but yeah, maybe justifying that. Yes, I'm autistic. Here's why. Here's the reasons. And then I was kind of almost Embarrassed of, like, oh, and now I'm saying I'm adhd. So there's some of that, like, that imposter syndrome around taking on another identity. I also, yeah, I've shared on here, like, it was a little bit harder to see it in myself at first, but that, you know, I talked a bit on the last episode how helpful the autism lens was in my marriage. I actually think the ADHD lens was even more helpful because there was a lot of things that was causing stress in my marriage that all of a sudden, like. And Luke is just such a gracious human. We're now, like, he really. I hear people talk about how their partners do or don't come along on this journey with them. He very much has. So it's, you know, now when I make a mistake that's an expensive mistake for us or an inconvenient, it's like, ah, there's. There's Megan Anna's adhd. Like, it's in. Whereas before, it would invoke, like, maybe a more grumpy internal narrative for him. And so what was the question.
- [06:21]
A
That wasn't planned for stage, by the way. The question was post ADHD discovery. What was it like for you knowing that you were already autistic? And, like, it is often times in reverse. Right. For a lot of people find out their ADHD first, and then a couple years down the road, autistic burnout. Boom. And. And here we are.
- [06:44]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I also felt like it kind of made me one of the cool kids. So I was like, ooh, I have, like, this cool thing versus just this embarrassing autism thing. And I realized, like, I'm not saying autism is embarrassing, obviously, but that. That was part of my internal experience. Cause I was still kind of in the early stages of the ableism. And for some reason. And again. And I don't. I don't know where this comes from. And I'm not saying it's a right reaction. It just was my reaction. Somehow. ADHD felt edgier. It felt cooler to be ADHD than autistic. Not that ADHD is cool. I'm not saying that. It's just for some reason, it was almost like this kind of balances out my autism in a way that makes it like, I'd feel more comfortable talking about being ADHD than autistic initially. I don't know. Does that. Do they feel different to you?
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A
Like, yeah.
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B
Does that make sense when I say, like, I felt like one of the cool. Like, it's.
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A
No, I actually think it does because I think how society frames both neurotypes is quite different. And I'm not talking about, like, the advocacy spaces and the neurodivergent community as society. I mean, like, as a whole. And I think that a lot of, maybe the neurotypical population of human beings is, like, looks at ADHD and autism very differently. And I think that's where our own internalized ableism comes from, is framed by living in an ableist society. So I think when we frame adhd, a lot of the messaging is, like, cool, artsy, creative, different, unique, maybe a little flighty, maybe they get distracted, the stupid squirrel memes and, like, some of that stuff. But I think there is this association of, like, but thinking outside the box and being really creative and doing all these fun things and being more spontaneous. So I understand what you mean when you say one of the cool kids. I also think that for me, like I've said before on this podcast many times, I was not rattled by my ADHD discovery at all. Like, it didn't. I don't even think it, like, registered to me. I think the only thing that helped me in those moments was because during that time, as I referenced in one of the episodes that we've just recorded, my ADHD discovery came out of struggles in my marriage and my relationship, because we were. We were just married. We got married very quickly. We got engaged in three months of knowing each other. We got married the same exact year, and I was, like, so certain. And then all of a sudden, life changes very quickly, and the permanency becomes frightening in a way. At least it did for me. And it felt like the walls were kind of closing in. And I just kept having romanticism about life being different, whether that was in a different state, in a different career with a different person. I just could not get this idealism out of my head of, like, the grass is always greener, right? Once I found out I was adhd, it just kind of clicked in, as in, as if, like, okay, all of that stuff now makes sense. And I remember going to an ADHD therapist with my wife at the time, not my wife at the time, because she's still my wife. Going to therapy at the time with my wife and having that person explain ADHD to her, and she was just like, oh. Like, it was very comforting for her to hear that stuff of, like, this is why Patrick does some of the things that he does. But in my mind, it was almost like an excuse or like a crutch to lean on in a way of, like, yeah, I can make that behavior permissible because I'm ADHD and so many white boys and people are adhd. And I also had the shocking misconception that you could not become ADHD or diagnosed ADHD as an adult. Because in my grad school program, we did not talk about ADHD or autism at all.
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B
Yeah, adult ADHD and autism is so rarely covered in graduate programs. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
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A
I think the only time I heard the terms was like, you might see some autistic children or ADHD children in your practice. And that was it. I was like, yeah, yeah. Anyway, sorry.
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B
Which is wild. When we look at the numbers of how many undiagnosed ADHD and autistic people are in mental health treatment. Like, it should be core to all training programs because, like, the 1:1 study, we can't globalize it. One in five people seeking psychiatric care in this one study in Sweden were autistic. Most did not know it. So it's like, that should be part of all clinical training. Anyway, so that's a different conversation that we should perhaps have at some point. I, first of all, did not know that about your relationship history. Interestingly, Luke and I have a very similar history. Slightly different in that I actually met him when I was 16. So we'd known each other a long time and had kind of tried to date at one point, but we started dating long distance and got engaged within three months and got married that same year and then had a really rough first year of marriage. Like, it's kind of amazing to me that we didn't divorce in that first year.
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A
Same.
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B
And partly it was him adjusting to my clutter and chaos, which I am much more cluttery and chaosy than you are, but. And then it was the romantification. I mean. Oh, and I had PTSD at the time, but I didn't know it. So that was a fun mix to add to. And I was 24. I was so young. Anyways, I had a very similar first year of marriage, so that's interesting. The other thought I had. We talked about relationships a lot in the last episode, but actually, I would say relationships is also the thing I went back to with the ADHD lens. It's like, oh, that makes so much sense. Like, the grass is always greener, the getting bored in relationships. And then, like, assuming the response is like, a different partner or a different context. That's actually. I would say that's been. I think the hardest thing in our marriage has been. I don't know that I agree with this. Maybe I Do I think the way it would be named is, like, my inability to be content. And my spouse is someone for whom, like, pleasing the people around him is really, really important. And so you put that with someone who just is kind of existentially restless and the grass is always greener, and that's a really hard dynamic. And so that. That struggle to be content in relationships. I think a lot of ADHDers struggle with that, and I don't think it's talked about enough, frankly, because it can bring on some shame and massive. Yeah, yeah.
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A
And I. I can. Can relate so much. And, God, if Arielle or Luke listen to this, I'm. You know, we love y'. All. But I know that for so long, like, I. I look back at relationships through the ADHD lens too, and I look at what you're saying. Grass is greener. Maybe there's a better partner out there, a better look, better whatever. But I also think about, like, the spontaneity and the impulsivity that came alongside the ADHD in relationships. Like, let's just go on a trip. Let's go, like, book this thing. I remember being in college, broke as hell. Like, book a trip to Ireland for my former, like, college girlfriend for she and I for, like, four or five days. Or, like, impulsively book a cruise for the same girlfriend in that span of time that we dated, like, without having the money, without, like, thinking through the parts that needed to, like, be in place to make this a successful experience for both of us. So. And I would blame it on bipolar two, which was my former diagnosis, or my gambling addiction coinciding with, like, the impulsivity part of, like, this is why I'm doing these things. This is why I continue to, like, self destruct in these ways. And so ADHD for me was a lot of self destruction and a lot of impulsivity and just spontaneous behavior fast forwarding till now. You know, I think it took Arielle adjusting to my neurodivergence in a lot of ways to make this relationship work because she has always been consistent. And that for me, at first, as an ADHDer, got really boring really quickly. And I was like, this relationship is fucking boring. I can't do this for the rest of my life.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And now I'm like, oh, my God, what wonderful security and stability that she provides.
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B
Yeah, I've used a really similar metaphor or Luke and I have, where, like, he's like, the anchor, and I'm like the waves. And because he is so solid and so consistent and. And yeah, it. Pain. It pains me that then part of being the waves, which also brings like. That brings like. I guess I am the one that will name like or like. It's not just bad being the waves because you also create, you know, creativity and things or you see when things need to change. But I feel so much grief when, like, I am the one that's more prone to. Yeah. To like, idealize or romanticize or fantasize about or to be discontent while also, like, to this. Like, this is the mind fuck is to be discontent with the fact he's the anchor while also absolutely needing him to be the anchor.
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A
Oh, that is spot on. And that's. That's painful too. It is that. It's that exact sentiment of, like, the discontentment that that person is stable and consistent and safe and untethered or very tethered, is what I should say. Not untethered, while you simultaneously are like, maybe chaotic in. In these experiences and caused some disruptions and then get frustrated that they remain.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And stable.
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B
Yeah, this. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a fair position for the anchor to be in.
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A
No, no.
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B
Yeah.
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A
No. But I. I can really, really relate to that. And I think a lot of people listening will. Will relate to that.
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B
And I think that's. You know, Esther Perel does such a good job talking about this. Of how in modern marriage, we've made. We expect our spouses to be the village, which is just not how it used to work. So it's like, if you are married to an anchor, it's. Where do you get your aliveness, like, beyond that and that we we need to move beyond looking to get everything from one person, because that's like, no marriage can hold that. And that'll look different. Like, for you. I think you get it through. Through travel and through having different experiences. I think. I think there's a reason that polyamorous setups is way. Is way more common in neurodivergent partnerships. That's. So I'm going to ask for permission to potentially edit this out, because I would like to ask and make sure my spouse is comfortable with me talking about this. But that's actually been one of the things that we've navigated. So we got married coming straight out of evangelicalism. And then when we left Christianity and I started thinking more constructively about what is this whole marriage thing? And I was like, why is monogamy assumed like this? This setup actually makes very little sense to me for sure. And so one of. One of the conversations we've had throughout the years. And one that I feel guilt on, which goes back to ADHD is where I would say I'm more like naturally polyamorous in the sense that I and I think it's part of the like adhd, you're deeply present wherever you are. So I feel like I can experience different attachments without them feeling like they take away from other attachments, if that makes sense. Because wherever I am I'm like, that's where I am. But my spouse is very monogamous and not for like we've spent a lot of time talking about it, not for religious reasons, just that's what works for his attachment structure. And so I think that's also an interesting lens, just in the sense that I think a lot of ADHD or polyamory probably does work well when you're doing it, you know, with a lot of intention, which I think most polyamorous relationships are doing it with a lot of communication and thoughtfulness or just navigating like being in partnerships where you want different structures to your commitment or your marriage. And maybe that gets revisited as part of the post diagnosis is can we revisit the structure of this container that we, you know, at whatever age, you know, for us, we were 24 and 26 when we agreed to this relationship structure. We'd like to take a moment to talk about Jane, one of our sponsors who helped make this episode possible. Jane is a practice management software built for every kind of mental health practitioner and is thoughtfully designed with your clients in mind. Jane makes it convenient to meet with individuals, couples or families, whether that's online via Jane's telehealth options or in person.
- [20:48]
A
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- [21:01]
B
Just as you are always learning and improving, Jane is too. The team at Jane values customer feedback and uses it to design even more helpful features. So you can think of Jane as a software that grows with you.
- [21:14]
A
If you're curious to see Jane in action, head to Jane app Mentalhealth Us to book a free one on one demo. You can also mention the code DCPOD at signup for a two month free grace period on your new Jane account. Hunter. Yeah, absolutely. I mean absolutely trying to think this August will be August 29th will be 11 years for her, for Arielle and I. And I'm about to turn 39. So I was 28. I didn't know, you know, three dating, getting engaged in three months would probably be a very ADHD thing. Getting married that same year, we never even had big conversations in that year. What do we want out of life? I don't even know if I knew the answer to that. Like, and then throughout our marriage we've had some small rupture where like, I've been like, I want to move to Europe early on in our marriage, not now, like present day, I still want to move to Europe, different circumstances. But then I was just like, I want to do it this year. Like, I want to just go and why can't we do this together? And she's like, because I have a full time job and I value my career and I value. I don't want to move to Europe. These are things we probably should have talked about before we got married. And for me it was just like, what, what do you mean? You don't want to like, just uproot your entire life and move to a different country where you don't know any single human. Like, that sounds amazing, doesn't it? So, you know, I think it's, it's work. The, the relationship itself has, has sustained in ways where, like, understanding each other's needs, super vital in any relationship. But cross neurotype partnerships, especially like understanding the dynamics and the communication styles and the processing styles, like, everything is so, so crucial. And I could not be more grateful to have the partner that I have who like, sees 10 steps ahead at all times and how to like, best support me and accommodate me.
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B
Yeah. Yeah. And I think ADHD relationship accommodations I actually think can be harder emotionally than autistic adhd. Sorry. Than autistic relationship accommodations. Like, what I mean by that is I think it's harder to access compassion. It's like, oh, you left the keys in the car and the car got stolen.
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A
Right?
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B
Like, how the hell did you, like, forget that? And it's, it's. I think there's more. It's not fully formed in my head, but I think there's more like character based. Like, if, if you loved me or if you cared, you would have remembered. Or, or you have a wandering eye, or you're not like you, you always want us to move. You're not content. Like, I just think it's harder on the other. Partly it's harder on the partner. Whereas I think some of the autistic accommodations, they bring a more like, vulnerable, soft, like, okay, I can see you're overstimulated, or I see you routine versus is what I'M saying making makes a.
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A
Hundred percent sense like associating a lot of ADHD struggles and traits with almost character flaws or like deficit.
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B
Right.
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A
Like and the age old you're just too lazy or you're too forgetful or how if this was important you would have remembered. Like that feels very shame inducing too.
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B
And the, the domestic stuff too of like how domestic stuff is divided absolutely and perhaps unequally that like that can be a. And if bring up more emotionality around accommodations there. Yeah.
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A
So like you work, you work from home all day and you can spend all of this time being creative when you're excited about something, but you haven't unloaded the dishwasher in three weeks. You haven't put the laundry away. How do you just keep stepping over piles of whatever. Like I think that could be so shame inducing and could really create that conflict domestically. If you do not have partners who understand executive functioning, who don't understand struggles with time perception, who don't understand like struggles with attention and distractibility. Like but that takes a lot of fucking work. And cross neurotype partnerships are hard and they're hard for a reason. I mean cross neurotype friendships are hard and it just, it is so complex.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But absolutely.
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A
Okay, so looking back through the lens of partnership, friendship, etc. What else comes to mind for post discovery for your adhd?
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B
I mean I think a lot, a lot of it was that like I can't adult which again was really confusing because of that like spiky profile experience of there's some ways I felt really competent but other ways I felt really, really incompetent. But of course, yeah had those character based labels for it. So I think that was huge. Realizing like there is a legitimate reason why things, things that I've been telling myself should be easy are really, really hard for me.
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A
Y.
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B
So that was a big one.
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A
You were in academia at the time when this happened?
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B
No, I was, I was in private practice at the time. So I, I think I graduated by the time the ADHD bit became aware. Yeah, I, I was kind of early neurodivergent insights days.
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A
Gotcha.
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B
So yeah. Yeah. Also just mistakes like when I look back and there's been some like mistakes I've made that have kind of had big impact where it's just me missing a detail. I think those I had a whole new lens on. Yeah. But I think that, I think I would say like such a big one was really that romantification idealization. Always itching to like create A different experience than the experience I was living. And then how that's kind of both impacted me, but then also my relationships and my contentment. I think that's, that's been a really, really big one.
- [27:32]
A
Yeah, I, I can relate. And that still is a big one for me. I mean, it still hasn't gone away. Despite learning more about myself. Like I still have, I have that intense romantification of that perfect picture esque world where everything is wonderful and just right and a better environment and more relaxing and more enjoyable. Like, I think about it all the time and it takes so much to like, say you're allowed to dream like this. And also we can't act on every single time that you have this idea because one thing that I look back on a lot is the ADHD tax, specifically how it's impacted me financially, where I have made some decisions, whether it be impulsively, whether I forgot a detail, whether it was truly just romanticism and idealism. And then all of a sudden it lost its like, wonder. And I have spent so much money and I've experienced so much shame around having to cancel bail on things, not even say anything because I felt so bad that I couldn't do the thing that I signed up for. And that, that for me is a, a lens that I have really re. Examined a lot through.
- [28:53]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that, that one has been big for me too as well. I, I would also say kind of in a similar bucket, my relationship to alcohol historically. And basically it's interesting, before I knew about adhd, I always joke like, I have a broken dopamine system, like, or broken dopamine faucet. Like if you turn the dopamine faucet on, like, it's not going off, like it's just really hard to put it off. And I'd been saying that for years. And so, and I had a lot of shame around how come, like I have all of these values that I feel very strongly on, but how come as soon as you put me in something that gives me dopamine, like, it feels like I can become very value and consistent very quickly. And so I, when I think back to my relationship, I would say my ability to regulate things that give me pleasure, that's always been hard for me and I've always had so much shame on it, for sure, because of my values. And I would say that more than autism, that feels like an ADHD thing. When I look back at my life and when I look at my context, I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. So that's, that's been a huge one.
- [30:03]
A
That's, that's, that is huge. And I can, I can relate again. And I, I think that the ability to, to, to navigate, like how to regulate your dopamine intake. Yeah. Especially if you're getting those, like, quick bursts of it and it feels good in, in whatever way. And I look at my gambling through an ADHD lens all the time because I'm like, how much of this. And I'll never know chicken or egg situation in this regard. There's just not enough research on addiction. But when I'm, What I mean is addiction and adhd, addiction and autism, not just addiction. I'll never know. Was my gambling undiagnosed ADHD and compounded life trauma, Whatever else is happening? Was it addiction plus adhd? Did ADHD drive the addiction? Did addiction, like, exacerbate the ADHD traits? I don't know. All I know is that ADHD and gambling addiction are not a good mix. And all I know is that the amount of dopamine that exists in gambling in short bursts of risk taking, it is a dangerous combination. And that for me is something I replay a lot of, of like a lot of those experiences and decisions that I made in that, in that window and iteration of my life.
- [31:25]
B
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, Patrick, this, the energy of this conversation feels so different than the autism episode which you and I literally just recorded. And I, I know I'm sitting with like, what feels like a, like kind of a blanket of shame. And we've also been talking about, like, why don't we talk about ADHD much? And I'm just, It's. Yeah, I have so much more shame around.
- [31:56]
A
Yeah, I can feel it. Yeah, I can sense it from you for sure. I, I do have a lot of shame around ADHD related decisions and experiences and choices that I have made in my entire life, not just in the last, you know, however many years. And then you add in the RSD factor and wow, whirlwind. But I don't know, it's almost as if we, we gravitate. Okay, hopefully this makes sense. Almost as if we gravitate towards our autistic parts or conversations or identification, as if it's the anchor in your example of an anchor in the waves that are crashing and we gravitate towards the anchor because that is our safety and our consistency and our stability and. Sorry, go ahead.
- [32:56]
B
Well, I was just going to say to add to that there. And I don't mean this in a. Like, autism is Core self. And ADHD isn't. But I think the, the autistic experience, it's, it's really common where like our values are our identity. Right. That's an idea that's out there. I think adhd, what is hard about it is it can make it hard to live in value consistent ways. And, and so that's why it's not. I, I hadn't made this connection before, but that's part of why it doesn't feel as core to my identity is cut because of some of the ADHD traits. Those are actually the things that, yeah. Can make it hard to live congruently to who I see myself to be, to who I want to be. And so it is like on an identity experience, there's some almost disconnect there.
- [33:49]
A
Yeah. Yep. And it, that's why I always feel like these two neurotypes when if you are in fact an Audi hdr, are at war with one another. Because the inconsistencies in some of the ways that our neurology is made up and the things that are really important to each are not the same.
- [34:09]
B
I mean, think about that mind for a second. Right? Autism. And this won't be every autistic person's experience, but autism is. I don't have values. I am my values. Right. And so that's core to who identity is. ADHD can make it harder to live according to those values. So my values matter more for my experience of identity and self. And at times I struggle more to live consistently by those. Like, that's a mind fuck.
- [34:37]
A
Yes. And there's no wonder, for me, at least, I can't speak for everybody. Can't even speak for your experience in this, that sometimes my autistic parts hate my ADHD parts. Like, yeah, there's like anger, like such anger and frustration because I'm just like, dude, I'm just trying to exist here. I'm just trying to get through the damn day without, like being too overwhelmed one way or another. That's all I want. And then it just feels like they are just constantly playing this intense, like, tug of war back and forth.
- [35:16]
B
Well, it's kind of like what we described a moment ago in our relationships, but with ourselves. Like, yeah, if there's going to be some push and pull and resentment of like waves, can you just stop waving for a minute? I'm getting tired. Holding us up.
- [35:31]
A
Yeah.
- [35:32]
B
And the waves might be like, why do you have to be such a stickler? Like, come have fun with me, come play with me.
- [35:37]
A
Or they're like, this is what we do because we're waves and like, that's what we're designed to do.
- [35:45]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [35:47]
A
This conversation is fascinating to me and that's. It's what led me to autism discovery, was I'm actually just looking at my bourdain painting in the background and like, watching the roadrunner movie of, like, watching how. And there's no public information on this, so I just want to name that. Like, I don't know that he was audhd, but I feel it in my soul. And like that push pull that he talks about in this movie and all of his friends and everyone that's been around him was like, he was so unsatisfied and restless all the time, always needing to be on the go to the next thing. And yet there was this force that was like pulling him back home to safety and stability because he was so uncomfortable out in the world. And it was just like, I have never experienced something so viscerally in my life. And I was just like, wow, okay. So that's kind of been. My experience is very similar to that.
- [36:45]
B
I haven't heard that before. That feels really powerful when you said that, like, that captures. I feel like a lot of the things we talk about here. The existential dread, the restlessness that plagues us. That. Yeah. Yeah.
- [37:04]
A
But yeah, this, this conversation feels different. It's interesting to pay. It's interesting to notate and pay attention to. Feels so much heavier.
- [37:16]
B
It does. Which is not like I like. Which is funny. We started the episode with. I was like, adhd. It's part of being the cool kids. And it's like, damn. Actually, yeah, there's. There's a lot of heaviness here. There's a lot of shame. And I've actually been saying this for the last year because I did a series last October on adhd and part of writing about it, I was like, I have a lot more internalized ableism to work through around my ADHD than my autism.
- [37:40]
A
Yeah.
- [37:40]
B
And so. And I. And I think. And I think I helped name something of that today, which is because there's so much more shame.
- [37:50]
A
Absolutely.
- [37:51]
B
And it's hard. It's also hard to like, differentiate it. Right. Like, what is. What is like, okay, well, that's undiagnosed adhd. And what is like. Well, that's just me being a shit person.
- [38:03]
A
Yeah.
- [38:04]
B
And it's the whole, like. I think there's even. We got a question about this. Like, are you just using this label to, like, get off the Hook. Right. That is hard to untangle.
- [38:17]
A
Yeah. If we're gonna say like ADHD and autism, adhd, these are identities. It's really hard to untangle and unpack. Like, why did I do that thing? Was it because of ADHD or autism? Was it because I just make bad decisions sometimes? Was it because I'm a bad person in certain contexts? Like, and I think that's humanness. Right. Like, that is the complexity of humanness. And, you know, it'd be really easy for me to look back at my gambling addiction days and be like, I gambled and made a lot of bad choices that are not congruent with my values because of my adhd. But in reality, it's like you did that because you were a gambling addict. Like, you were in active addiction. So the things that you did were fueled by active addiction.
- [39:07]
B
Yeah.
- [39:07]
A
Now I don't think that ADH didn't play a part, but.
- [39:11]
B
But it's not as simple as saying, that was my adhd. It's like undiagnosed, unsupported ADHD obviously made you more vulnerable toward addiction. And then when you've got complex ADHD and addiction, that's going to drive things. And I think that is, like, when can we have self compassion for like. Well, yeah, undiagnosed adhd. It makes sense. I was kind of more vulnerable for xyz. How do we have self compassion for ourselves while also taking accountability? Like taking accountability for those we've hurt, taking accountability for our actions. That does require, you know, a bit of paradoxical thinking or duality, as you like to say. Yeah, yeah, yep.
- [39:51]
A
Yeah, exactly. So it's, it's just one of the, it's one of those things that I think is just lifelong and you just go through like different iterations and versions of yourself as you learn more and uncover more and discover more and deconstruct more. And yeah, like, I don't know what iteration is next for both of us in the next five years, but I imagine it looks very different than the last five years.
- [40:15]
B
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I have a couple itchy thoughts and then. And they'll just be itchy. But it, I realize we're kind of at a wrap up zone. I've had lots of people like say things like, if I'd known about the adhd, I think my marriage would have lasted. And there is, I think there is some research that suggests ADHDers get divorced at higher rates. And we've been talking about relationships a lot, like shame around that. There's also research around ADHDers being more likely to cheat. And again, that's. I feel like that's probably not something we like to highlight because I. Well, what am I trying to say? I think there's so much. We're often correcting kind of pathologized versions of ADHD and autism. So it can be hard to talk about, like, the harder parts of the ADHD or autistic experience. Like, harder to talk about the fact we're more prone to cheat or have affairs. But that is part of the ADHD experience, which I think makes sense. And I feel like that's important to name too, as people are listening to this episode and we're talking about shame and we're talking about the ways it can show up is that is an experience that is more common for ADHDers, and it's. I don't know that that's talked about enough.
- [41:38]
A
No, probably not. I mean, we tend to shy away from things that feel taboo in society. Right. So the acknowledgement of fact that. Okay, if there's a higher correlation here, does that make me a worse person or. And I. And I don't think the answer is yes. I think when we add in impulsivity and dopamine seeking and sometimes recklessness, like.
- [42:06]
B
And grass is always greener and. Yeah, yeah. Novelty seeking. Yeah, it's like, okay, yeah, that makes. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. So I just. I think with adhd, there's. Yeah, there's correlations with things like addiction, like cheating, like things that land us in jail that are harder to talk about. And so I think those are the things that often live behind closed doors. And then we have shame on. And then we're like, why am I the only one struggling with this? And so I think we can be deeply affirming around the ADHD identity and talk honestly about the fact that there's increased risk and vulnerability to things that might not be value consistent or things that bring on shame or just things that like, yeah, we don't want to be part of our lives, but we struggle to have them out of our lives.
- [43:04]
A
That's really well said. Damn, you wrapped us up twice today. Really well, first episode, Great final thoughts this episode. Great final thoughts. No, I agree with you. I don't have anything to add to that. I just. I appreciate that messaging because that's. Maybe that can offer some, like, self compassion and some grace towards some of this stuff. Because it sounds like you and I both feel a bit more shameful about our ADHD parts and experiences. And I'm sure that we are not the only two people in the world who feel that way.
- [43:39]
B
Yeah, I certainly don't think so. So I hope people who are listening perhaps can feel a little bit less alone in their shame if these hit on topics they have felt some shame on.
- [43:53]
A
Absolutely. And thank you for continuing to listen to us on all the platforms in YouTube. And we will see you next week. Bye.
- [44:09]
B
Hey, it's Dr. Neff here. This season we are clearly talking about autistic burnout, a topic that neurodivergent Insights has covered extensively.
- [44:18]
A
So.
- [44:18]
B
So if you would like more resources to supplement your learning, we've put together a page where we've curated all of our autistic burnout resources freed and paid resources. We have lots of articles on autistic burnout. We have a upcoming free email course. It's gonna be released soon. We have workbooks on autistic burnout. So if you'd like to check out our resources again, both free and paid, you can go to narrativeurgentinsights.com burnout resources. It's linked below and in the show notes. I hope you don't need resources, but if you do, they are there for you.