Episode 128 (Season 4): Do Autistic People Want Social Connection?

Summary

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Divergent Conversations - Episode 128 (Season 4)

"Do Autistic People Want Social Connection?"

Hosts: Dr. Megan Anna Neff & Patrick Casale
Release Date: October 17, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and deeply personal discussion, Dr. Megan Anna Neff and Patrick Casale, both neurodivergent therapists and close friends, tackle the persistent myth that autistic people are inherently uninterested in social connection. Sharing insights from their lived experiences as AuDHD (autistic and ADHD) clinicians and community builders, they explore the nuances behind social motivation, capacity, sensory realities, and the layered nature of how autistic people seek, maintain, and experience connection and friendship. The theme of "nuance" runs throughout, as they challenge black-and-white narratives about autism, highlight diversity within autistic experiences, and reflect on their own friendship. The episode is filled with vulnerability, humor, and memorable analogies about being "a cactus" or needing “dense water”—a metaphor for unique connection needs.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mythbusting: "Autistic People Don't Want Connection"

• [01:39] Megan poses the question: “Autistic people don't want connection. True or false?”
• Patrick immediately calls it “false,” highlighting the nuance and need to individualize (“That’s a nuance question per every question we’re going to tackle.” – Patrick, 01:48).
• Both hosts agree that all humans, including autistic people, have social needs—just highly variable in kind and degree.

2. The Goldilocks Zone: Specifics of Social Connection

• Megan emphasizes the type of connection matters: “Do I want random social connection filled with a lot of humans, a lot of stimulus, a lot of small talk or medium-sized talk? No, I'll pass. I'd rather stay home with research and weighted blankets.” (03:07)
• Both relate to the desire for deep, meaningful connection over superficial interaction, but with significant caveats around energy and stimulus.

3. Unique Social Capacities and Needs: The Plant Metaphor

• Megan describes herself as a “cactus”: “It doesn’t take much water and I’m good, so it’s hard to be friends with…plants that need watering every day because I’m…a freaking cactus.” (04:07)
• Patrick likens himself to a “Venus flytrap”—drawn to connection until it becomes overwhelming.
• This analogy humorously frames their differing needs for connection and social energy.

4. Yearning vs. Capacity: The Body-Soul Dilemma

• Patrick quotes Megan: “The soul yearns for connection, but the body yearns for isolation.” (05:10)
  • This becomes a foundational theme: autistic people may want connection internally but lack sensory or emotional capacity to engage.
  • Noted as a powerful anthem for many autistic listeners.

5. No Single Story: Spectrum of Social Motivation

• Both argue against universalizing statements: “You’ve met one autistic person, you’ve met one autistic person.” (07:59)
• Megan speculates ADHD traits may heighten social motivation but notes research in this space is lacking.
• Rich inner worlds: For some, social connection must be compelling to rival the appeal of being immersed in their own thoughts.

6. The Nook & Online Community: Contexts of Connection

• Megan discusses her community project, “the Nook,” and how connection feels different as the group grows, shifting from intimate community to a space that can feel like “work.” (14:30)
• Both reflect on the relief and fulfillment from meaningful, scheduled, or purpose-driven social engagement—often necessary for overcoming inertia.

7. Friendship Maintenance & Difficulties

• Challenges of “friendship maintenance” are candidly acknowledged. “I really am horrific at Friendship Maintenance.” (13:43–13:56)
• Shared understanding and low-pressure expectations in neurodivergent friendships help maintain relationships despite fluctuating capacity.

8. Attachment, Rupture, and Repair in Friendship

• Patrick on the evolution of his friendship with Megan, particularly after moments of misunderstanding: “I honestly feel like post rupture and repair with you, I feel closer to you than ever.” (30:56)
• Disclosure of emotional depth in their friendship, using language of chosen siblings.

9. Virtual vs. In-Person Connection

• Virtual spaces often feel safer and more accessible for initial connection; however, hosts note the loss of in-person attunement and subtle “parallel play.”
• Megan: “Those are examples of parallel play…we can find places where we can go parallel play with people and they might not even realize that’s what we’re doing.” (20:47)

10. Preferred Modes of Socializing

• Many autistic people find typical “allistic” (non-autistic) socializing draining.
• Dr. Neff highlights research showing autistic-to-autistic conversations are more fluid and connected than cross-neurotype ones (referencing Katherine Crompton’s studies, 22:50).
• Preference for object-based or interest-centered social spaces—D&D clubs, book clubs, etc.—over unstructured interpersonal scenarios.

11. Language and Self-Acceptance

• The importance of honoring one’s true needs for connection and not measuring against neurotypical standards.
• Quick initiation of deep connection is rare; most relationships “warm up” before depth is achieved, though sometimes with fellow neurodivergents, “within a minute of meeting each other, we kind of are [deep].” (25:51)

12. Unmasking & Social Experimentation

• Patrick describes the impact of unmasking on his social life: “It’s really fascinating to see who’s stuck around and who’s been like, ‘that guy kind of sucks.’” (27:22)
• As authenticity increases, social circles shift toward others with similar neurotypes.

13. Connection Needs: Dense Water and Attunement

• Going beyond the cactus metaphor, they discuss needing “dense water”—meaningful, substantial interaction—not “breadcrumb” or superficial contact. (25:17)
• “Rhythmic attunement” in neurodivergent friendships is contrasted with the alienation often felt in neurotypical-dominated spaces.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The soul yearns for connection, but the body yearns for isolation.”
  – Dr. Neff (05:10)

• “I’m a freaking cactus...I don’t do well in friendships with plants that need watering every day.”
  – Dr. Neff (04:07)

• “I want connection. I don’t have the capacity for connection.”
  – Patrick (12:27), echoing Dr. Neff’s earlier reflections

• “You’ve met one autistic person, you’ve met one autistic person.”
  – Dr. Neff (07:59)

• On parallel play:
  “We can find places where we can go parallel play with people and they might not even realize that’s what we’re doing.”
  – Dr. Neff (20:47)

• On group dynamics:
  “When autistic people create spaces…when we come together, there’s often that experience of, like, I feel like I found my people…non-autistic people…feel awkward…we don’t get that experience because we’re like 2 to 3% of the population.”
  – Dr. Neff (37:06)

• On their friendship:
  “We started sharing, like, ‘I love you’ in messages. And…that’s how you feel to me, is like a sibling.”
  – Dr. Neff (17:08)

• On friendship maintenance:
  “I really am horrific at Friendship Maintenance.”
  – Dr. Neff (13:43)

• On masking/unmasking:
  “It’s really fascinating to see who’s stuck around and who’s been like, ‘that guy kind of sucks.’”
  – Patrick (27:22)

• On communal understanding:
  “There tends to be so much grace…Oh, you don’t have capacity for that today. Okay.”
  – Dr. Neff (29:07)

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Detailed Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:39] – Opening question: “Do autistic people want connection?”
• [03:07] – Megan on types of social connection.
• [04:07] – The ‘cactus’ and ‘houseplant’ metaphor for social capacity.
• [05:10] – “Soul yearns for connection, body yearns for isolation.”
• [07:59] – On diversity within autism; spectrum of social motivation.
• [14:30] – Megan on adjusting “the Nook” to her capacity for community.
• [20:47] – Parallel play and subtle forms of connection.
• [22:50] – Autistic-autistic vs. autistic-allistic rapport and research studies.
• [25:17] – “Dense water” analogy for meaningful connection.
• [27:22] – Effects of unmasking on friendships and social circles.
• [37:06] – Creating attuned spaces within neurodivergent communities.

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Major Takeaways

• Autistic people absolutely seek and value connection, but how they do so is unique and highly individualized.
• Social needs are shaped by both longing and capacity—many want connection but are limited by energy, sensory sensitivity, or anxiety.
• Authentic autistic connection often flourishes in environments that honor autonomy, parallel play, and context-driven, interest-based interaction.
• Relationships among neurodivergent people tend to have more grace for fluctuating energy and social withdrawal, facilitating sustainable connection.
• Unmasking and embracing one's neurotype brings both losses and new depths in relationships, often fostering stronger ties with those who “get it.”

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The Episode's Essence

This episode models the very connection it describes—deep, nuanced, imperfect, affirming, and grounded in understanding and mutual respect. Megan and Patrick’s candid exchanges and playful metaphors provide not just information, but a felt sense of neurodivergent friendship in action. Listeners come away reassured that if they feel different in their social motivations and capacities, they’re not alone—and that meaningful connection is possible on one’s own terms.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Just as you are always learning and improving, Jane is too. The team at Jane values customer feedback and uses it to design even more helpful features. So you can think of Jane as a software that grows with you.

[B]

If you're curious to see Jane in action, head to Jane app mentalhealth Us to book a free one on one demo. You can also mention the code DCPOD at signup for a two month free grace period on your new Jane account. Hey everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick cassell.

[A]

And I'm Dr. Neff.

[B]

And during these episodes we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.

[A]

So, Patrick, I have a question for you. Autistic people don't want connection. True or false?

[B]

Can we have one of those buzzers? Like a big buzzer? I mean, false. I think that there are layers of that. That's a nuance question per every question we're going to tackle.

[A]

I feel like nuance, like hashtag nuance is just going to become this season's hashtag.

[B]

Add it to the T shirt idea that we're never going to create.

[A]

Okay, sorry I interrupted your flow.

[B]

That's okay. I don't really have a flow right now. My brain is really foggy. Okay, so one, I would say false. Insert buzzer sound. We've talked about social motivation and social capacity on here before and I think, you know, we've gotten quite a few questions of like, can there be extroverted autistics in our Instagram feed as well? And I think all people to some degree want and need human connection, but I think that varies greatly on so many different factors. And for me it's like, is the. You always talk about like, the Goldilocks situation Or experience. Like, I need it to be just right in order to really want that connection and experience it in a fulfilling way that I can actually be a part of. But. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So, like what, like, social connection? That's too broad. It's like, what kind of social connection? Yeah, really important. Like, do I want random social connection filled with a lot of. A lot of humans, a lot of stimulus, a lot of small talk or medium sized talk? No, I'll pass. I'd rather stay home with research and weighted blankets.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Do I want, like, deep, searching connection that feels a little bit more rhythmically attuned? Yeah, I do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then so I also, like. Yeah, okay. No, I was about to get too into theory. So, yeah, I. I do want connection. I will also say I feel like I need less of it than most people in my life.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And I know you've mentioned that can make friendships hard and relationships hard when you want less connection than maybe some people you're connected to.

[A]

I'm like a cactus. Like, I don't. It doesn't take much. It doesn't take much water, and I'm good, so it's hard to be friends with. Like, what's the kind of plant. What's the kind of plant that needs a lot of water? Like, high, like, needs water every day? Like, I don't. I don't do well in friendships with. With plants that need watering every day because I'm. I'm a freaking cactus.

[B]

She's. She's out in the desert and you're by yourself, comfortable there. You get water maybe once a week, maybe once every two weeks. Sometimes once a month.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I'm more of a cactus than you are. I can tell.

[B]

Oh, yeah, without a doubt. Yeah. I would say I'm more like. Maybe like a Venus fly trap. I don't know how much water, but, like, you know, I want connection till I don't want connection, and then I'm like.

[A]

And then you start eating the flies. Yeah.

[B]

Or just real overwhelmed and irritated and, like, you know, there's all the. All the things that come with my own social experiences. To quote the great Dr. Neff on one of our podcast episodes, you said that the soul yearns for connection, but the body yearns for isolation. And I think that's the most powerful thing I've ever heard you say.

[A]

Well, thank you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Think. I don't. I don't know how to take that in it. It does get quoted a lot, so I can.

[B]

You don't.

[A]

Can tell. It gets Yeah, I can tell when I. I kind of randomly found those words. And when I did, I could tell I was. It felt like I was naming something really true. And it seems to resonate with a lot of autistic people. Like, and that's where. Oh, layers. There's just so many layers to all these things. Right. Like, we almost need it. So social connection, there's so much in that. There's. There's social longing, there's social motivation, there's what kind. Like the quality of the social connection. But then there's also social energy and social capacity. So it's like in that idea of my soul longs for connection, my body craves isolation. It's. I don't have necessarily the energy or the sensory resources for connection, even though I might long for it. And so. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So really, you know, I quoted you on my TEDx with that because I think it's so powerful. I think I quote you in my book about this. I quote you so many times. I'm gonna have to give you royalties or something. I don't know.

[A]

10%, please. Thank you.

[B]

Yeah, maybe. I mean, hey, it's been that instrumental, so I think that's such a powerful statement, Juan. I want to just like, if you haven't heard that said before, just kind of sit with that, you know, I think it's a really powerful, poignant statement. Also should go on the T shirt list. I don't know if it's Kaylin or Caitlin, but if whatever whoever's name it.

[A]

Is, Kaylin is the design magic at Nerd Over Insights. So when we, when we, and we are going to get a merch lineup up eventually, when we do, Kaelyn will be the one who will be the design magic behind a lot of that.

[B]

That that quote needs to be. Yeah, absolutely. I think that it feels like foundational. So what I'm thinking about is that the nuance behind like, connection, socializing capacity, limitations, There might be some people who would fight us to the death on this and say, like, no, autistic people don't want to be connected. And I would say some autistic people may not want to be connected. And I think we're going to say that about a lot of these topics of like, some autistic people may not want or may not experience or may not like, insert whatever the statement is, but that is. That cannot be a universal truth.

[A]

Yeah, like it's. It goes back to like, you know what? You've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person, and then especially when you throw in the adhd. I would love, I don't know that we could actually get a clean study on this, but I would love to see, like social motivation. So not social energy, but social motivation of autistic only. ADHD only. And then Audi. Audi hd. Yeah, you said before this, before this book comes out, I'm going to figure out how to say Audi HD without pausing. Okay, lost train of thought. So, because I think, I do think ADHD bumps up the social motivation for a lot of us. That's kind of a theory I have. I, I would probably not. And I wouldn't define it in the negative. I wouldn't say autistic people don't want social connection. I would say there are social autistic people and I, I relate to this a bit, who have such rich inner lives and worlds that, like, the social connection has to be really appealing to be more interesting than moving out of. Yeah, yeah. And that's like the origin of the word is about like kind of being of our. Of our own world.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And there's a beautiful phrase. My phonetical dyslexia is going to be really rough here. There's a beautiful phrase from the indigenous. Indigenous folks in New Zealand. The. Yeah. Can you be my phonetical support?

[B]

I mean, I've only, I've just, I was just in New Zealand. That's the only reason I can say.

[A]

Oh, yeah, how do you say it?

[B]

Maori.

[A]

Maori. And do you know how to say the word Takiwa Tonga? No, the. It's the word. It's the, it's the word that is sometimes used for autism, which is in my own time and space. And I find that a really beautiful descriptor of autism, actually, because I do often. That is a lot of my experience, feeling like I remember both in high school and college, people would often be like, I said hi to you and you just walked right by. And I really was in my own time and space. And for the most part, unless my mind is raging with mental health stuff, it can be a really pleasant space to be. I wouldn't say it means I don't long for connection, but I would say it's. It takes a. It has to be pretty, pretty compelling connection to want that over what I can have in my own time and space.

[B]

Yep. Yeah, no, that's a, that's a great, that's a great point because I'm sure a lot of people listening can relate. I'd say I have more social motivation than you.

[A]

Um, yes, Definitely. I think you initiate 90% of our socializing.

[B]

Mm, yeah. Yep. I do.

[A]

Maybe 95.

[B]

And it's hard because like you said. Right. If we had that study or that we could refer to of like autistic driven connection initiation, ADHD or aud. I really have no basis because I am Audi hd, so I can't. I can only ask other people what they experience. And you know, I think that's challenging and tricky sometimes because my perspective is my perspective. So I acknowledge that, like, I initiate a lot of connection with the people I want to be connected to when I'm feeling really lonely especially. But I'm feeling really lonely a lot. So that probably means I'm initiating connection a lot. However, I don't have the capacity for the connection that I'm initiating.

[A]

Oh, wait, I want to pause with that. I want to. I don't have the capacity for the kind of interaction I'm initiating. That. That feels really. I just want to sit with that. That feels like a really important truth. You just named. I feel that. I feel that.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I've never said that before. Really glad my brain's not working right now because. But yeah, I. I don't often have the capacity for the connection that I'm initiating.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And that's tricky now that I say that out loud like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It'S kind of heavy.

[A]

It is heavy. It's. It's. I want connection. I don't have capacity for connection.

[B]

It's kind of a variation of your statement, honestly, like, and that's really my reality of. And I've just always. So much struggle in connection too. Like, as so many of us tend. Tend to like struggle in certain social situations or connecting environments. Like, I just struggle with so many things. I've noticed how much I have to constantly track and be aware of in order to feel like any sort of regulation. And that could be even an attunement with other people that I feel really connected to. And they're like the littlest thing can create like that stack of cards almost like coming. Crumbling down. Mostly sensory, but.

[A]

Right. You started with like, you want it, but the condition. It has to be the Goldilocks.

[B]

So.

[A]

So it's like a. All the variables have to be in place and then it's like a stack, a card house of like one things. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

It's probably pretty hard, don't you think?

[A]

Say that again.

[B]

It's probably really hard to be our friends.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, that's probably why I don't have many. I'M really, I really like, I joke about it, but I really am horrific at Friendship Maintenance.

[B]

Can I ask you a question, though?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is interesting to unpack. So horrific at Friendship Maintenance, you would be a cactus in the middle of the desert, but you did create, like the nook, and that is obviously for connection and community. But you would say there are contexts to connection and community. Right? Like different, different layers of connection, community, friendship, relationship. But it does scratch some itch, though, in terms of like, that piece.

[A]

It definitely, it definitely does. And as it's interesting, I'm actually like, in the middle of. I'm going to be work. I'm going to be meeting with our staff, our community manager soon. She works with Neurodiversion Insights to like, I'm rethinking the nook because I. I always said I'm gonna know. I'm gonna know it's like at its capacity of size when I feel it. And I've started to feel that. And so I'm gonna be like, rethinking kind of how we structure it and how often we let new members in. Because I have noticed that the connection I was getting when it was smaller, it's like started to shift a little bit into, like, it feels like work, like work tasks to, like, keep up versus. And I remember you saying that with your Facebook group too. And so I'm. Yeah, but every time I'm on a live call in the community, I'm like, oh, my gosh. Yeah, connection. And. And it's that same. I feel like we talked about this in the wellness series. Like, what? I am preparing for a call. Like, of course, even with, you know, people I know, I still get a little bit anxious of like, will this go well? Then I always leave of like, oh, my goodness, that felt so incredible to connect with other mostly Audi HD humans and just hear other people's wisdoms and thoughts. So it's. I always leave those calls feeling so grateful and connected and like, yeah, I want more of this in my life and I forget that. Right? So, like, I. If I could easily not initiate that if it wasn't on my schedule. Just like, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine without that. And then once you taste it, it's like, yeah. So I am a weird paradox, though, in that I'm a very relational. Like, I talk about relationality all the time, I think about it all the time, and I'm a freaking cactus in the desert and both of those things. And I don't know, maybe, maybe that is why I philosophically think about relationality so much and why I write about it. Because I do think there's. I do know that I crave it less than other people in my life. I am generally more fine without it. And there is pain there. There is pain around. It's been hard to build the kinds of connections that I've wanted throughout my life, and I wish it was easier.

[B]

Am I getting emotional?

[A]

Why are you?

[B]

Because I feel sadness for you. Because I love you as a friend.

[A]

I do. I. I've actually had the thought. I was like, I wonder if this would be a helpful thing. This is probably my, like, paranoia because I can get. I. I get anxious thoughts, but I'm like, I wonder how people think about our relationship because we obviously are, like, care so deeply for each other and we do. We started, I don't know, maybe like six months ago. I think we started sharing, like, I love you in messages. And I've wondered if we'd ever talk on this. EW has felt really special to, like, I'm. I've heard other people use language of chosen siblings, and I've never, like, I've never really used that language before, but that, like. And we've talked on this. If, like, that's how you feel to me, is like a sibling and. And I know we both feel that, and it's. I don't know, it's felt really. It's felt really unique and special.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

So, yes. If people ever hear us or say, See us say I love you to one another, we are not running off with each other and leaving our spouses.

[B]

I don't have the energy for that. Seems. Seems like a lot of. It seems like a lot of work. I, um.

[A]

Also not something you do with a sibling.

[B]

No. No. But I think that's. That's what makes some of this stuff special. You know, when we talk about connection, when we talk about relationship, I think that for those of you listening, because one thing I. I will say is I. I pay much more attention to our comments and our Instagram and social media than Megan Anna. Does she. I don't think she pays any attention to it, which is good for her mental health cactus. Yeah, but it's. I see a lot of you saying things like, I don't really have connections with anyone. I don't really. I want them. I don't know how to access them, or relationships and friendships feel so hard, or I don't have anyone that cares about me. And that. That really breaks my heart when I. When I read stuff like that. I guess I just want to name that and model the fact that we can build them while we're sitting here on air. Like it's all happened because of an Instagram DM back in the day.

[A]

Yeah, you know, I, I didn't remember. I didn't remember the platform of how we connected.

[B]

This is when you were a little more active on ig and I just remember.

[A]

Yeah, we were in the Facebook group too. That used to exist. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So I think there are lots of avenues to connection and a lot of us, I think, feel safer initiating conversations and relationships virtually. And I think that can make things really tough sometimes when we have such rich inner worlds and maybe we spend a lot of time virtually, then we lose access to that person to person contact as well in person. And that can be when we seek it out. When you were mentioning before, if you go into some chaotic environment, maybe you're seeking out a coffee shop just to sit around people. Maybe you're like seeking just going to the park and walking around and seeing other people walking around. I think there are lots of ways that we connect subtly without acknowledging that's what we're actually doing or that's what we are actually looking for, searching for.

[A]

Well, I mean, those are examples of parallel play. We can find places where we can go parallel play with people and they might not even realize that's what we're doing. If you're going to a coffee shop or. Surprise. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I take for granted because in my work that for a lot of people, they, they don't, they don't know other autistic people or they don't know other ADHD or other autistic ADHDers. And yeah, it is a lot harder. I mean, I don't, I will say the level of relationships I've been able to build since discovery and since finding autistic specifically Audi HDRs, like there's just a connection that tends to be there. It is really different.

[B]

Yeah. So circling back to do autistic people like connection? You know, I always think about like autistic like or Audi hd. I wonder if there were like dating apps or matchmaking apps. I feel like there are because people have, there are. And said like, hey, can you pitch this? And I'm like, no, because I'm not going to be on it. But just like just friendship, relationship building groups and apps and different ways that it's clear that a lot of us and a lot of you listening are looking for more Meaningful relationship and connection and just to feel a part of. I think that is what we want in a lot of ways. Right? Like just to feel a part of. To feel connected to humanity, to. To this world that we're a part of and live in.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[B]

I know. Can feel really inaccessible in so many ways too. And I, I think that I just don't like seeing like these black and white statements of no, autistic people hate being social.

[A]

I mean, it might be true that we hate allistic socializing. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it goes back to like the double empathy problem and cross neurotype interactions. I'm sure I've referenced it on this podcast before, but Katherine Crompton has several fantastic studies where it's looked at both like communication and communication breakdown, but also like connection building and rapport building between autistic and autistic versus autistic, non autistic and like, consistently we see our communication, like, doesn't, you know, it doesn't break down like it when we're with each other, like it does when we're in cross neurotype. And we tend to connect more easily with each other. So a lot of it is also about learning how we connect. And this is kind of one of my stump speeches I can get passionate about. But like, and this is the problem with a lot of social skills training is it teaches you skills to connect in a way that like might be connecting for allistic people. And not that those aren't, not that there's not space. Like, those can be important skills to learn, but it's not going to teach the autistic person, like, what do you find connecting? You know, for us it might be more of that, like, parallel play or what I call object based conversations rather than like leading with social based. Social based conversations, which is all that, like, tell me about yourself. Who are you? How are you? Like, if we can join a book club or a DND club or something where there's some sort of object that orients us and especially if it's a special interest, that kind of thing tends to be more connecting for us. But that's not what society tells us is connecting necessarily. So it's also about like, okay, what do I actually experience as connecting? And then how do I, like, can I honor that? Can I honor that? Parallel play is the way that I like to, you know, connect.

[B]

Yeah, you know, we see a lot of like, comments of like, really want deep connection. We really don't want that, like, surface level. It's true.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You know?

[A]

Yeah. So I'm a cactus, but I don't need much water. But when I am watered, it needs to be like really dense water.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What kind of deep? I don't know. It's like, it's like compacted water. It's like. So it's like it needs no sprinkler shit. It needs to be dense.

[B]

Yeah, I get that. Yeah. It can't just be like a little, like breadcrumb here and there. It's got to be like, really intense. It's got to be. Yeah. There's got to be substance to it. Yeah, that makes sense. But it also makes sense that it's like, harder to access and harder to find.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, you. And the reality is you typically, you don't just go deep with people right away. I mean, so I've actually. I feel like the people that are in my life are people where it's like within a minute of meeting each other. We kind of are. But typically there is some warming up before going deep.

[B]

Sure. Yeah. And I think that can be challenging. Right. Especially maybe if we're like thinking about high masking autistic people who discovered their autism later in life. Be really hard once you start the unmasking process to figure out, like, how do I connect with people? What? Because, like, again, going back to what we've talked about before, what are my interests, what do I like, who the hell am I?

[A]

Because when you're masking, it's often about, like, how do I facilitate other people feeling connected to me. Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I've actually experienced very interesting dynamics from, like, learning that I was autistic back in 2021ish. As I've hosted retreats and events and started unmasking more and more and more to see how people react to that in terms of how I show up, how I speak, how I communicate things, how direct I am, how I will literally remove myself from typical social gatherings and conversations. It's really fascinating to see who's stuck around and has been like, that guy kind of sucks. He's an asshole.

[A]

Have people actually said that, or is that your narrative?

[B]

I think there's probably truth to both, which is fine. But I just think it's fascinating when you start to become more of yourself and they become more confident and anchored into who you are and what you like and what you prefer. It's really an interesting social experiment.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because you kind of see who sticks away. Who sticks and who kind of sheds away. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And it just Means like, you're probably gravitating again, double empathy problem to people who have similar neurotypes in a lot of these social situations.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Or I am going to tell you that you have that neurotype. Very early on into our friendship.

[A]

So many people who's like, yep, first conversation.

[B]

Patrick's interviewing therapist anymore, but, you know, has diagnosed 28 of his close friends within minutes of meeting them there.

[A]

I. I do wonder. I have wondered this if there's a bi. And it's not always wrong, but that I think there's a bias. If I connect with someone, I'm like, oh, they've got. They've gotta be autistic or adhd. And. And it's almost like I do think there's probably something that gives me something in the belief that if I'm deeply connecting with someone, they've got to be these things because that's where my people are. And often it's true, but it's not always true.

[B]

Yeah. I think you're right. I think that makes a lot of sense, but I think probably often is accurate.

[A]

Yeah. Because there is. There's like a shared rhythm. And then the. The other thing I. I have really appreciated about shared neurotype connections is there's just so much understanding around capacity. Like, there's so. There's so much. There tends to be so much. Grace has been my experience of, like, like, oh, you don't have capacity for that today. Okay. Or, like, oh, you're canceling. Of course. Like, I'm relieved, too.

[B]

I love it. Yep. I had to cancel on someone last week who we had scheduled coffee almost a month out because our schedules just would not align. And I canceled because I didn't sleep the night before. And they were just like, okay, see you next time. And I was like, such a relief.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just did not have the capacity. And I think that is a privilege and a place of feeling. I feel really a lot of gratitude for the friends that I do have in my life who I can just be like, I just don't have it. I don't have the capacity. I am in burnout, etc.

[A]

And that, I mean, I think that goes back to that, like, social motivation versus social energy of, like, to be able to do maintenance of friends. We probably really need our friends to understand the social energy piece. Otherwise. Otherwise that could lead to a lot of frustration or a lot of, like, that other person feeling rejected when it's. It's a capacity issue.

[B]

Yeah. Like, they're putting in all the work into the friendship or relationship and. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Can. Well, can I ask, do you feel that way? Like, I'm curious actually, now that we're talking about that, if you ever feel that way with us, of like. Because you do do most. 90, 95% initiation. Oh my gosh, words. Because you do so much of the initiation. Does that ever creep in into how you experience our friendship?

[B]

I think probably early on, yeah, for sure. And that was more like most likely the attachment stuff that we've talked about on air. I honestly feel like post rupture and repair with you, I feel closer to you than ever. And when you go silent, which is a lot, I don't default to Megan, Anna hates me and I did something wrong. I default to more like checking in on you and be like, hey, are you. Are you okay? Because I kind of get the sense when that happens from some friends unetta. I'm also speaking to you that I know something is like not off necessarily, but I'm very intuitive in that way of like being like, I can tell they're really having a hard time. And that's a lot of, you know, what I notice and pick up on with friendships and that I. With people who especially I feel very close and connected to.

[A]

Yeah. And that is definitely true. Like when depression hits that social withdrawal looks very different. And that probably that is an important distinction when we're talking about social capacity is when depression is also in the mix. Most people tend to socially withdraw. And that. That can be an unhelpful kind of withdrawal versus the kind of withdrawal we might do that's adaptive to protect our energy, for sure. And yeah, I've appreciated that. When you've reached out and you're. You're typically not wrong. It's usually I'm like head deep in the sand with too much work or I'm. I'm kind of in a low mood. That's pretty withdrawn.

[B]

Yep. And I think I go into also thinking, you know, we did our whole burnout series thinking about, okay, depression or burnout. Right. Which one is which? I think about my responses when I'm in either space. And I think withdrawing much more in depression, but being more irritated in responsing responses and frustrated in social relationships and burnout. So I can tell the difference sometimes for myself, which place I'm at mentally. Like, if I'm in major burnout, I'm so irritated by responding even to people I care about. I'm just like one more demand, one more thing to do. I do not have the Capacity. And I've gotten so much better, though, about just saying that, like, I just don't have the capacity. I just don't have it because I used to try to respond to everything, and I think that's probably a big reason why I'm in the space that I'm in. But I also realize, like, with the people who I feel really connected to, I can just say that, and that can just be enough. And that's so helpful for me. Know it. It really allows me to have that. That space of feeling understood and seen and just affirmed in that way. Really helpful.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I know it wasn't our intention coming into this episode, but it feels like we're kind of mapping out what are some of the conditions that help autistic people connect. And some of the ones that seem to have come to the surface are things like people who understand my capacity and. And who, like, will honor that. And so that it kind of allows for that natural ebb and flow that comes with, like, our social capacity. And then I think people who can talk openly about things. So partly because there is more to potentially misinterpret when we have social capacity that ebbs and flows. Yeah, Yeah.

[B]

A lot more. I noticed a lot more. Like, having to explain things to people. Like, in work right now, if I'm just so irritable or burnt out that it's like I immediately respond to something the wrong way, I have to be like, I have to backpedal, offer an apology, give context. And I'm like, this takes so much energy, and it's so hard. Instead of people who you can just be like, this is what it is. This is where I'm at, and this is the reality. Like, I was talking to my mom the other day. I'm not going to get too much into this because we got to wrap it up anyway. But she was like, what's wrong with you? As I was telling her, like, I'm just not doing well. You know, she had read that burnout post I made on my Facebook, I shared with you. I was talking there. She's like, none of this stuff is just bringing you joy. Coming Scotland coming to an end, the book deal, getting signed. I'm like, no. Like. And that is a moment of being misattuned. Right. Missing that complete. What does the person need in the moment? I think a lot of us have those people in our lives who we have a lot of misattunement with, sometimes of not seeing our needs.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Sucks.

[A]

Does I. There's a. An Essay I wrote a while back, and it's the kind of essay. Sometimes I write essays and it's like, here's some education. Other times I write essays and it's like I'm, like, emotional while I'm writing them. And this was one of those. And I. I talk about, like, rhythmic attunement and how for so much of my life, it just felt like I was slightly out of rhythm with people. And like, yeah, that's a perfect example of there's a disconnect that happened there. And then you feel misattuned in a pretty deep way. Right. Like, what's wrong with you? And I never. I think that's what's made, like, this season of my life so beautiful is that I never expected to find rhythmic attunement with other humans. And by no means is it perfect. It's not like we magically don't have ruptures. We have to navigate with one another. But that is what neurodivergent community has given me, is a place where it's like, oh, I actually feel kind of rhythmically like we're on the same rhythm here versus always feeling like one beat off, but seeing that everyone else is on the same rhythm. And that's.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, that's exactly it. And then feeling that way most of your life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Up until you discover neurodivergent community.

[A]

Yeah. This is what Jim Sinclair, who talked about autistic spaces, he's a autistic advocate. He talked about this experience of, like, when autistic people create spaces and how when we come together, there's often that experience of, like, I feel like I found my people feel connected. And how when non autistic people enter, they often describe the same experiences that autistic people describe in our normal life of like. I'm not sure what to say. I feel kind of out, like. Like they feel awkward. Yeah, yeah. And it's. It's just we don't get that experience because, what, we're like 2 to 3% of the population, so rarely do we get the experience where we're setting the rhythm and the tone.

[B]

For sure. That's a great point. That's a good callback to that. Yeah.

[A]

I think, you know, okay, last season we recorded. I kept being like, why do people listen to us? Because we're so, like, down and depressed. Well, not always, but like, last season we were definitely depressed. Yeah. We're often a bit. A bit grumpy. I don't know if grumpy is not fair, but it's not the most hopeful podcast to listen to, but I actually think I have a theory that part of what people listen to is our rhythmic connection.

[B]

I mean, yeah, absolutely, we go through podcast reviews. So many people point out our relationship and how helpful our relationship and connection has been for them to feel, like, connected to us in a way or to just talk about how nice it is to hear it. So did I send you that one from my therapist, Chantel, who works at rmc? Something about us being back on the air with the Burnout series felt like a warm hug. I was like. I was like, oh, damn. Okay, okay. But I. I think you're absolutely right. I think you're absolutely right. Like, this would not work if we were missing the mark and misattuned all the time. This would be fucking terrible. Maybe not for this, potentially, but for us. It would be.

[A]

I think. I think it'd be terrible for listeners, too, because, like, I think that's the kind of energy, like, we pick up on. And, like, it would feel. People would feel that.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's it. You know, it's just. And that's always what made this podcast work, was relational stuff, is what makes the podcast work. It's not about, like, I always said this, but I've never thought it's been about, like, research or education or information. I think it's just. It's the relational component that makes people feel less alone.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, can the education be a little bit of it?

[B]

Of course. Of course the education is important. I just don't think it's the driving force.

[A]

Yeah, no, because you. Yeah, there's a lot of other podcasts that do that really well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think it's relational. It's just like, it's modeling relationship, too. I also think we wouldn't be able to diverge and flow the way that we do. We had no idea what we were going to record about today. We just said connection.

[A]

Yeah. It's also. I noticed that we haven't even brought up the idea of bringing guests back on because we've now recorded two seasons without it. And I think we're. I think we're really leaning into, like. Because. Because it is a different. It's. We. We lose some of that. The rhythmic connection.

[B]

Yeah. It feels like that weird interaction. When do I speak? When do I not speak? I'm, like, feeling a visceral, like, physiological response right now as we're talking about that.

[A]

I just had a thought. Okay. This is a half baked thought, but the whole the definition of if autism is, like, in my own time and space, the kinds of connections the. That I crave is when I can be in a time and space with another human. It's really hard to do that with more than one human at a time. I think it's possible, but it's like when we build a little. Like, I'm holding my hands, like, a little. Like when we build a little world together, like, I'm cupping my hands. And when it's like you create a space where time and space exists. So. So it's like bringing someone into the autism. That's the kind of connection I crave, is when it's got that same world feel, world building, but doing it with another human. And then the kind of social connection that's a little bit more dysregulating is where it's like, I'm trying to sink to their world and back to my world versus, like, building a world together.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense to me. Some of you might be listening and being like, I. I have no idea. But I think if it makes sense to you, you might be able to be one of the people who can share water with the cactus. I don't know. I think we got some playfulness in this episode, which was great, too, after our episode we recorded earlier. So I'd say today has been a win.

[A]

And now we need to start, like, a buzzfeed quiz of, like, what kind of plant are you?

[B]

Oh, that's good for the substack. That would be, like, so good. What kind of plant are you? How much watering? What kind of water do you need? That's another question. Is it a sprinkle? Is it more robust fire hydrant? I mean, yeah. My Ariel gives the plants all over our house and outside some sort of order. I think it's called. What's that water called that comes in jugs at the supermarket? Is it diluted water? Is it. I don't know.

[A]

What is diluted water?

[B]

Distilled. Distilled water.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

I knew it started with a D. Yes. Yeah. What did you dilute water with? Distilled water. Or maybe it's potable water. I don't know. I learned that word the hard way.

[A]

So I'm very high maintenance. I need very high quality water.

[B]

Sounds like distilled water. When we actually adopted our Shih Tzu, the owners were like, you have to give him distilled water every day. And I was like, I'm not. Not doing that. So maybe that's why he is the way that he is. I have no idea. Could be. All right, diverging rapidly. Time to wrap up because brain is unraveling.

[A]

Okay, so well, this has been connecting and I'm okay now. I'm getting very awkward. I was about to be like, I'm glad we had this conversation, but we're not.

[B]

Connect with us further on podcast. Do it on all the channels because that's where we are on Fridays. Also, go check out our sponsor Jane app with Code DC Pod. You get two free months upon signing up. Make your life a lot easier for medical and mental health professionals. We'll see you next week. Goodbye.

[A]

Foreign hey, it's Dr. Neff here. This season we are clearly talking about autistic burnout, a topic that Neurodivergent Insights has covered extensively. So if you would like more resources to supplement your learning, we've put together a page where we've curated all of our autistic burnout resources freed and paid resources. We have lots of articles on autistic burnout. We have a upcoming free email course. It's going to be released soon. We have workbooks on autistic burnout. So if you'd like to check out our resources again, both free and paid, you can go to neurodivergentinsights.com burnout-resources it's linked below and in the show notes. I hope you don't need these resources, but if you do, they are there for you.