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Divergent Conversations
Episode 144 (Season 5): Neurodivergent Advocacy in Turbulent Times and The Future of Divergent Conversations
00:44:25
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- [00:00]
A
Hey, everyone.
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B
You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick cassell.
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C
And I'm Dr. Neff.
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B
And during these episodes, we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.
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C
Foreign.
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A
Welcome back to Diversion Conversations. It has been a while, and there is, admittedly a lot going on, both in our lives and obviously in the lives of all of you. I don't know where to start with this. We've been, like, rambling off screen before recording because we're trying to figure out how to make this podcast work, make it useful, have it be timely in this moment, and also honor our capacity. And it's feeling increasingly more and more challenging to do all of those things simultaneously.
- [01:12]
C
I was literally just having the same thought of round, like, how do we enter this conversation? There's so much. So much time has passed since we were recording. Like, our last. Our last batch record was in August. And the world. The world. It's. Yeah, I do, I do. I don't know how we're going to get into this conversation. I do trust once we get into it, it'll be a good and connecting conversation, but it is a bit hard to find, like, our entry point or our foothold.
- [01:51]
A
Yeah. And I think what we had talked about was, for a while, we were going to rearrange how this podcast comes out, because both of us have a lower energy season right now, and we have a lot of demands on our plate. Both of us are writing books with manuscripts that are due in dates that felt like they were very long ago and they no longer feel that way.
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C
But so quickly, right at one point, like July 2026, it's like, oh, I've got all the time in the world.
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A
Yeah, May 2026 felt like an eternity ago. And I was like, oh, that's so much time. And now the walls are really closing in and creating a lot of pressure. But I think that although that is true, I think what's really also coming up a lot for both of us and for a lot of you, listening is just. Every day, it feels like there is just a barrage of information, atrocity, a new horror, so to speak, stuff that just completely consumes and overrides. And it's really. I think that's really challenging to meet the moment as. As a source of media, as a podcast. You know, we. We wrestle with how much of ourselves to put into the show. And we. We had. We put a lot of ourselves into it, a lot of vulnerability. But we've definitely tried to figure out where do we want to be in terms of how we show up right now in this moment, because.
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D
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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C
And we. I mean, we've. We've nodded to it throughout the last year around, like, fear. Yeah. For both of us, but also for our families. And, like. And it's interesting, I think. I feel like I've hit a point where I'm less afraid, I think, partly because I. There's so much that feels scary and terrible. And then the thing that is giving me hope is seen. Like, it's the. Like, it's the American people who are creating change right now. And it's like people standing up and using their voice, and it's people coming together in community and connection and organizing. Like, that's what is pushing, if there is any, like, pushing toward better or goodness. Like, it's that. And so I. I do feel like I've. I've hit a threshold of like, okay, it's. It's. And that might shift. Right. But it's no longer fear that's holding me back. One thing that. And I was talking. My team and I were talking about this yesterday, and I want to. I want to, like, try to put my thoughts together in an essay on this, but just the. The complexity of. Of having. Yeah. Having a large account when. When all of this is happening and, like, how to show up. And it's something that actually I think about quite a lot. And one of the paradoxes I often feel, or the tensions is one of the things when everything around us is falling apart. One of the things, especially as autistic people that can be regulating and soothing is when we have some anchors of normalcy, when we open up our phones or the news, and it's all rereading the same headline over and over about the terrible things happening that can be really dysregulating. And so sometimes I'm like, well, I want to offer, like, okay, this is a place you can come to learn about neurodivergence. You're going to get kind of the same. This will be a predictable. Amidst all the unpredictable will be a predictable presence around what kind of education you're getting. But then there reaches a point, and I think this is what we've struggled with on the podcast, where it's like. But it's so weird to be talking about, like, autism or ADHD or sensory. When it feels like the world around us is falling apart. And so then it's. Yeah, it's, it's if, if, if you're, if your world is making content and you're not a journalist. But it's like, it's just like, how do you show up in this moment?
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A
Yeah. Yep. For sure. And I think sometimes some of this stuff feels kind of trivial. Like how can I go.
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C
Yeah.
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A
And about something or talk about something when there's so much more happening in this moment that feels like it's so much more significant and more important and has more implication.
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D
Yeah.
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C
Than like RSD or sensor. It's like. And how do those things stop mattering on a personal day to day? But it's just, it feels weird to talk about that stuff when, you know, when the democracy is under attack. When like our, you know, I think just before we started recording the. And I don't want to, like, that's part of it. I also, I don't want to be like, just injecting. I know people are already like inundated with these headlines, so I don't want to be at another like voice injecting more of it. But yeah, just when it feels like safe, secure elections and democracy is under threat, it is. How do we write books about autism and ADHD or like content about it? And then. Yeah, it's complex.
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A
Yeah. There is a day a couple weeks ago I'm gonna, God, I don't even know what I'm falling to say when I say when the autistic Barbie came out. And that was like creating waves within the autism community and a very complex emotions around it. And so that was one story. Right. So I'm like, do I, do I weigh in on this? Then other stuff is going on. Then we have people being, we have people being shot and killed in the middle of the streets while protesting and standing up for their communities and trying to protect each other and mutual aid requests going on and stories about whatever else happening in that day and in that week. And it can feel so. I don't know, I think that sometimes it feels meaningless. And I try to think really hard around these times about if this feels meaningless. But all these people have all these opinions about everything that's happening. And I don't mean meaningless like it has no meaning, but like, what's the point of having certain conversations about certain topics when other atrocities are happening? I get really, I get into this weird mindset where I don't know what to do and all I know, to do is to support my community, to support things that I can control, like my mind goes into. Okay, where can I donate money? Where can I donate resources? Who can I help? How can I amplify? Because I think that resistance is interesting, especially in the community, that, in the disability community, about, like, how do I show up, how do I resist? How do I advocate a lot of people feel like they're not doing enough, or I can't resist in a way that is going to be acceptable for people around me, or I just don't feel like I can do that safely enough in any. And it's such a mind. It's just so overwhelming in so many ways.
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D
Yeah, well.
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C
And that can be part of the paralysis, I think, is. I mean, before we started recording, we're talking about decision fatigue and decision paralysis of, like, and especially with our all or nothing thinking, right. Of like, there's a right way to get involved or a wrong way. And then there's. There's so many different things happening and there's so many different ways to respond. That. And, And I think that's. That's also part of the design. Right. We've. I think we've talked about this on the. In the past with the whole, like, flood the zone is literally part of the strategy they use of, you know, if, like, even today alone, I think there's probably three headlines that could lead to a reasonable impeachment. And it's like, well, if three of these things come out every day, people can maybe attend to one or two, but it's like you can sneak in a lot of things that way, and it just, it can create that paralysis. And that, that is part of why in my, in, in our content, I'm like, okay, how much do we talk about this? Is this contributing to paralysis or is this helping? That's one of the things I often think about.
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A
Right.
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C
I am circling back to your idea of community. I think it's. I think that is the question. It's something I've. And I've felt an energy shift as you and I have shifted in our conversations around what does it look like to get involved in. I know you're doing a lot in your local community to get involved in supporting the efforts of people who are organizing. Like, there's beautiful things happening there. And I think, I think that's so important is finding the entry point to something where we have something to do with this energy that comes up. Like, I've been doing about talking a lot about the nervous system and the Stress cycle. And our bodies create arousal when we're under threat. And often a lot. In like pop psychology and in psychology we talk about how do we downregulate that. But there's times that we don't want to downregulate it. There's times we want to. That arousal is there for a purpose. It mobilizes us to act. And so I think, I know that's been so huge for me is figuring out where to channel that so that I don't fall into that paralysis and so that I am channeling that energy towards something that makes it feel. Makes me feel like I have a little bit of agency amidst this hellscape.
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A
Yeah, I think having a little bit of agency is vital because otherwise, you know, there can be days where I personally can spend days doom. Scrolling through social media and listening to reel after reel or reading story after story. And that becomes. That becomes really overwhelming really quickly.
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C
Yeah, that's so, It's. That's so jarring on the nervous system. Yeah, yeah.
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A
And you. And you know, I can get consumed by it. I can hyper fixate on it, and before I know it, it's like two or three days of just your, you know, just flooding your nervous system with image and story and. And narrative. And all of a sudden, like, I'm dysregulated and I'm not sleeping and I'm more irritable and I'm, you know, all of these things. It's like a domino effect and trying really hard to figure out different ways to move through the day. And I'm not saying, like, don't go out and protest. Don't go out and resist. Don't go do the things you're doing. But like, maybe there are subtle changes that we can make that allow us to stay a little bit more anchored in and more regulated. Like starting your day a little bit differently instead of opening the phone and immediately scrolling through stories and like. Like we said community and just getting into community, whether it be. And you know, it can be so many different ways that you can participate in your local community, whether you're fundraising, whether you're donating, whether you're supporting a local mutual aid or nonprofit, whether you're making phone calls or sharing information or being one of the people organizing or actually out on the front lines protesting, there are lots of ways. And it really does not have to look identically across the board. And I think sometimes we can get into this almost like shame or guilt mentality if I'm just not doing anything or I'M not doing enough. And that's certainly not helpful. Not only. Yeah, in general.
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C
And, and the way that, like the way neurodivergent people might get involved, like, most things will likely look different. You know, it might not be the frontlines protests, but it could be, you know, there's ways of using our creativity or our spreadsheet skills for those who are systematizers, like, there's. It might look different, it might look quieter, and that's okay.
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D
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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C
I'm glad you're naming that because it can also, I think when we live through experiences like this, it can bring on shame. And shame would be another emotion that would demobilize us and get us stuck. And so if, if we fall into that shame of like, well, I'm not doing enough or I'm not doing it how maybe even we, we want to be able to do things.
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D
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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A
And with that, you know, like, I can get into that mentality if I'm not doing enough. Right. And that can be brought on by that three days of doom scrolling. And then I start to get into this storyline of like, okay, platform and privilege. You need to be doing more. And then I will tell myself, like, you're doing nothing at all. And if I'm more regulated, I can look at it from the perspective of here are all the ways that you are helping the causes that you care about. And I can come at it with a very different approach opposed to that, like black and white, all or nothing, catastrophic thinking. And that's. I just know that I can have more of an impact in how I want to show up in support if I'm doing it from a place where it feels really intentional and value centered and anchored into the things that matter to me. Because we can't support all the causes that are going on at all the times. There's too many to count, not just here, but everywhere. And it's really important to try really hard to figure out what feels important to you. I think that's, that's another piece of this as well.
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D
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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A
I also, like, have been paying attention more and more to just people who are a part of more marginalized groups who have more marginalized identities and how they resist and how they show up. And we've talked about this on here, but I think white people being oppressed is relatively new for us.
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C
And we don't do it well. We don't do it well.
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D
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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A
I notice a lot of my friends and family members especially who are Black friends and family members. For them, a lot of times, resistance can be joy. Resistance can be pleasure.
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D
Like, yeah, yeah.
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C
This is where I. It's interesting. It was a year ago I started reading Adrian Maree Brown's work, who's been. Become just like an anchoring kind of voice for me this year. And I think they talk about it. I think the roots are. I think the think the roots are in the black movement around the idea of pleasure as resistance. And I love that idea. And I think it's so. Because it's part of. And this is also where when we've talked about I struggle and knowing how to show up, I. I feel like I've broken record, but I'm always like, I want. Because we've recorded some political podcasts that we haven't chosen to release. And it's. The reason I didn't feel comfortable releasing was I was like, I feel like I'm asking listeners to hold my emotion. Like, it's not metabolized enough. And so the thing that I think black and brown communities really model in their. In their organizing is at the heart of it. They're so good at staying connected to their humanity. And, like, and they move from that energy, I think. And these are broad, sweeping statements, but I think it's a little bit easier when white people, when we experience oppression, I think we often lead in our anger in response and not that our anger isn't justified or valid. It absolutely is. And there is a difference when it's a movement, if are we leading with our humanity and inviting others to, like, reconnect with their humanity, like, basically creating an image of hope, of, like, look at how beautiful, like, community can be. And it can be when we anchor into this versus leading with anger and spreading anger. I've been re listening to some dark comedy because that's one ways I cope. And I re. Listen to. I don't know that this would be dark comedy, but Hannah Gatsby's Nanette, which is just so well done and it's. Nanette is like, it breaks the model of what comedy is. It's really also about advocacy. And at the end, they talk about how throughout it, they talk about how laughter is contagious, which I think is part of, like, pleasure. But they also talk about how anger is contagious. And they say it so well. They talk about how their anger is valid, but they also don't. Like, they didn't want. They're like, I don't want to spread anger. I don't want you to all leave here angry, like. And they talk about the power of story. That story is the thing that can, like, mobilize people toward, you know, toward action. So story, humanity, pleasure, laughter.
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D
Yeah.
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C
These are the things that are inspiring me right now.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very good stuff, because I think that stuff is the stuff that gives you some semblance of, like, light at the end of the tunnel. It's really easy to go into hopelessness, demoralization. It's kind of the goal, honestly, is that people become so hopeless that they feel so defeated that there is no other outcome than to just stop and to cease resisting in any sort of fashion or form. And one thing that makes, you know, even just watching some of the protests that are happening across the country, the thing that feels beautiful to me is the unification of people from all different walks of life showing up and. And supporting one another. And I think that's really wonderful to see. And I see that happen after disaster, you know, Like, I saw that happen here after hurricane. Like, community came together after catastrophe. It was a hellscape. It was horrifying. And it didn't matter who you were. You were just supporting each other because that humanness kicks in. And I wish we saw more of that, but I don't think we see none of that. And I think that's really important to acknowledge of. Like, I wish that we saw more unification, and I also acknowledge that we are not seeing zero unification.
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D
Yeah, yeah.
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C
Yeah. I had a thought the other week. It was kind of a sad thought, but it was also. I don't know, this is maybe the silver of hope. I'm holding on to that. Like, it's so unfortunate that it often takes, like, the worst of humanity coming out to bring out the best of humanity. Yeah. And I feel like that's so much of what we're seeing now is. And it's. And it's. It is amazing when we do see that, when we do see how it brings out the best of humanity. Like, yeah, I. I've found myself choking up when I'm reading about or, like, watching about some of. Some of the things happening in Minneapolis with the way people are caring for neighbors.
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D
Yeah, yeah.
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A
Yeah. I. Yeah, it's. It's unbelievably powerful, the messages that are sent when people are standing up for each other and protecting each other and doing whatever they can to support one another in times where it might feel like there's are no outcomes that feel positive or favorable. And I like seeing all the people singing, dancing, playing music in the streets, supporting local businesses, just doing everything you can not to let this destroy you or tear you down. And I think that is just such a beautiful representation of what this country can be at times where there truly can be unification through culture and race and identity. And I think that is the stuff that makes all of this worth continuing to fight for.
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D
Yeah.
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C
Yeah. In a, like, weird way. I don't know if it's like, I've been overton windowed, which is when, like, you, you get so exposed to the bad that something that was less bad all of a sudden looks really good. But, like, I find myself, like, I, I've always been someone who I have to be cautious because I, I've, ever since my, like, 20s, I've kind of been overly negative of America and I've been very outspoken about it of like, all these other countries do all these things better. But I found myself, like, appreciative of our, like, of aspects of America. Of like, it's hard to explain maybe. It's just I'm, I'm just, I'm like, you know, the fact we used to have checks and balances seems pretty cool. Things like that or even like, I think, what is it? I'm, I'm finding myself moved by, like, members of military who are actively protesting and say, no, this is not. This is not the American way. I will not do this. Or. Yeah. Just.
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A
Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, I think we'll see more and more acts of defiance as things potentially intensify and we're just going to have to rely on each other. I think that, for me is the, like, message that continues to be pretty pervasive. And I think it also means, like, I'm just thinking of all the ways you can do this, like, donating to charities. Like, I donate to ACLU and Democracy Forward and SEMA and all of the Immigrants Defense Council organizations that I can. Like, there are so many ways to feel like you are, are doing something. And I also think it starts with like, curate. We talk about this all the time, but curating your content, like, yeah, I, Yeah, there are content creators on both sides of things, on both extremes that make a lot of money creating content, creating controversy, stirring up emotion.
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C
And that's what the algorithm rewards is, like, things that stir up emotion. And, and it's. Yeah, I. So I have a mixed. Yeah, I, I always, I want to be, I always want to be cautious when I say this because social media can be so good for so many things. I do think when it's I think because the algorithm rewards things that hijack our nervous system. Especially during moments like this. Like I actually I went on for the, like I, I just don't open social media often at all. So I went on for the first time in a long time because I was wanting to. Because here's what social media is really good at. They're really good for me to find. Like where are the mutual aid places I. I needed to do that on social media. That's one thing that social media is really good at is like the quick collective action.
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A
Yeah.
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C
So I was go. I was on it because I was wanting to see what are some of the mutual aid projects happening. And I felt almost like vertigo so quickly just by scrolling. And I was like, well, this is so overwhelming. I think especially, you know, I'm more autistic forward. It's like the context shifting and the visual shifting. But then it's. It's not just that like every 30 seconds is a new visual and context and voice my system is adapting to. But it's also typically an attention grabbing headline because that's what's in the algorithm. It's. And I also might encounter the same headline like 10 different times. So it's just constant injection into the nervous system. So I think for getting news during hard times, like I know for me finding long form has that works better for my system. And then Brett from Neurodivergent Insights, they shared this idea with me that I really liked is. And I think they heard it somewhere of like finding two to three sources that that's more regulating. And I was like, oh my gosh. Yeah. That's what I actually intuitively do. Like it's Heather Richard Cox. Heather Cox. Richard. Heather. Yeah.
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A
Heather Cox Richardson.
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C
Heather Cox Richardson and like Pod Save America. Those are kind of my two. I go to and I hear less. Part of it is I'm not hearing the same headline over and over that way. But it's also like I know their voices, I know the context and so my system's not needing to adapt as much. So that is. I think if people are really kind of struggling with there's too much arousal in their bodies and they're feeling immobilized. That might be something to play with. Of course, because I do it just is really hard for our system to take in this kind of content with that much change over and over and over.
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A
Yeah, absolutely. Yep. I like both of those accounts as well. And then Amanda's mild takes is another one. And she just. The way she lays out Information in such a calm way and, like, and just understands the moment so well, is super important for me. And listen, social media, for those of you listening, I am not knocking it, has a lot of benefits, like Megan Anna said. And some of the benefit right now, given the moment and the time that we are in, is capturing stuff that is happening in real time and having people be able to access it and share that information if our media is not going to do that job and if there is going to be suppression of information. So that is absolutely wonderful, because without that, I mean, you would. You would not know any of this stuff was going on if you weren't right there in the middle of it.
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D
Yeah.
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A
And that is unbelievably important right now. But I also think, like, what will happen, right, is like, you'll like a post, you'll share a post, maybe you'll hit that new Instagram thing that shares the stories with people, you know, and then all of a sudden, your whole algorithm is full of.
- [30:18]
C
Is that.
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D
Yeah, yeah.
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A
So I've started to reclaim my algorithm by doing that. On all the animal videos I see, all the rings videos I see. Like, I'm just trying to, like, make my social media accounts and algorithms feel at least a little bit more regulating because, admittedly, as we've talked about, spend a lot more time on there than you do. That's not in a good way, but, like, the only way I can do that is to create a little bit more of, like, common ease and just joy, too. Like, watch my wife on social media. She just scrolls through things and is laughing constantly and is like. I'm like, how are you? How is this happening? I don't.
- [31:03]
C
Because her algorithm is probably so different.
- [31:05]
A
I know, I know. It's, like, amazing.
- [31:08]
C
Luke and I did that once where we were like, let's just swap algorithms for a moment. And, like, his is like, football or European football, so soccer and, like, vegan cooking. And it's, like, so peaceful. And he's scrolling through mine. He's like, wow, that's really. Yeah, it's so. It is. Well, and it's. I guess maybe that's part, like, we talk about intentionality a lot. Maybe it's zooming out to be like, what is the purpose or the function of social media? So if the function is. I like. I use it to get, like, views of what's happening on the ground, then I think that's a great algorithm for that purpose, especially if they know this is why I use it. I think what gets complex is we Use social media for so many different things. And one of the. I think one of. One of the myths I'd love to bust is this idea that scrolling is relaxing. Like, there's nothing people like, I'm just gonna, like, you know, I'm gonna relax for a little bit. There's nothing relaxing about scrolling unless you're like, your spouse or my spouse, where their algorithms are, like, beautifully curated to be that. So it's. I think it's zooming back to be like, if. If we. If social media is something we want to be relaxing, a place we escape the world, helping tailor our algorithm to be that. If it's the place we go to, to stay, like, up to date.
- [32:34]
A
Yeah.
- [32:37]
C
And it. Because there's. There's also, like, a lot of independent journalists now who curate those videos for us. So, like Midas Touch Network, that's another one I will watch when I am. When my system can tolerate a little bit more visceral because they will, like, curate the clips. So there's. If that's not what we want to use social media for, there's other places we can access that.
- [32:57]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Exactly. Yep. It's. It is a moment, that's for sure. I think that moment.
- [33:07]
C
Yep.
- [33:08]
A
It's just. Yeah, it's just. It's was just January forever. Felt like we were in January.
- [33:14]
C
That was a long, long month. I mean, okay, so we actually did record a January New Year's episode, and it was going to release this Friday. And we're like, it just feels so. It feels so long ago and it feels so out of touch.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So just, you know, that's something that we both wrestle with on here sometimes, is just trying to meet the moment and also do so in a way where it's like, I'm already running on fumes and low capacity. How do we figure out a time to record between both of our schedules and lives? And I think that's challenging while also trying to preserve your peace and peace of mind. And then the flip side, of course, is like, once we get into a rhythm and I'm like, oh, I feel really connected to Megan Anna, then I start to feel like, oh, this is really energizing. I should do this more.
- [34:07]
C
I know. Like, even I'm thinking about, like, from when we started recording it. Now I'm like, oh, I've got more energy because I'm in connection. Connection is what we as humans need right now. But, yeah, it probably is a good time to kind of fill listeners in on, like, we're not completely sure what the next six months will look like with the podcast, but we've talked about restructuring it to make it more sustainable because it was the releasing weekly. I've kind of been saying for a few years that that felt unsustainable, but I think with this year, that just has felt harder and harder. Yeah.
- [34:46]
A
Yeah. Harder and harder for a lot of reasons. And energy capacity, other projects, just life getting in the way. And it's. Yeah, it's been. It's felt more heavy trying to figure out ways to continue it in a way. Even when we went to batching, at first, that felt really good. And the first run, like the Divergent or the.
- [35:11]
C
The Burnout. Burnout City, that was like, I think my favorite season we've done.
- [35:16]
D
Yeah.
- [35:17]
A
And somehow we just sanked up perfectly for that.
- [35:19]
C
I don't.
- [35:20]
A
I don't know. And I. I think that's what you always try to recreate, you know, is like, how do we recreate that moment, that energy level that shared even our.
- [35:29]
C
Early days, like, before we were. Like, before it got big because we. Neither of us were expecting it to get big, so it was like, no stress. There's very little stress on, like, all of the kind of production around it or sponsors. And it's like, I kind of want to go back to those days, but also maybe with, like, we record when we have capacity and we release when we have a new episode to release.
- [35:55]
D
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [35:59]
A
I think that goes back to what we've said a lot during this hour of, like, intentionality. So not just releasing because we have to, because we have people who are paying us to release episodes or not just releasing because we feel the pressure to do so, but just releasing episodes that feel good to us and feel congruent with both of ourselves and our businesses and our. Our platforms and just what we want to put out into the world, I think.
- [36:29]
C
Mm.
- [36:30]
A
It's a privilege to be able to get. To be picking and choosing in terms of how we want this to go.
- [36:37]
D
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [36:41]
A
I'm thinking now that we're doing this, I'm like, we should have. Should have made that an intro in case people didn't make it all the way through. But, you know, that's okay. We can clip it.
- [36:52]
C
We can clip it. We can. Yes.
- [36:56]
A
Yeah.
- [36:56]
C
We'll figure it out. Make a yes. Or we could. People will figure it out. People will see that they're not dropping. Yeah. Yeah. And we. We have talked. One thing we have talked about is, especially once both our manuscripts are in like doing a more contained, like an actual proper season, like a 10 episode season and releasing that, which would probably be in the fall and that and like shifting more toward like actual seasons where there's a break and then there's more episodes. I think we've both said like, we'd love to be more intentional with the podcast, but then I think with, with how many episodes we've been doing and with how busy we are, it's been hard to do that. So I think that's, that's kind of like a guarantee that we'll be back with a slightly different structure with a like smaller season at some point this year. And in the meantime, we've talked about if we want to hop on and talk and record and upload it, we will.
- [38:06]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It takes a lot of the pressure off of playing like Calendar Jenga as well and trying to figure out time zones and all the things that we're always navigating behind the scenes. Because I'd say three and a half years in, we never really found the right like flow or system in terms of how do we make this seamless. I just don't know the way unless we're in person.
- [38:35]
C
That and also I thought about this a lot. So, like one of the criteria of autism is difficult with reciprocity and like, that actually is a thing. And I think one of the challenges we've had is we both run businesses and then we've come together to create divergent conversations. And it's like your team does half, my team does half, but no one clearly owns it. And I think for both of us, like I've said, I feel like as we were talking about this, I was like, I feel like this will probably always feel like a side hustle unless I like found a way to integrate it into neurodivergent insights, workflows. And I, I imagine on some, in some way you maybe feel similar of like it's weird to half own something. And that's just, that's part of the autistic experience is for a lot of us, it's like if I don't fully own it, it's hard to know which pieces to move. It's hard to coordinate that with someone else. And I think that's been. It's weird, but that's, I mean actually it makes sense to autistic people struggling with reciprocity. Like, it would make sense that this like third little thing we've made that doesn't fit in either of our businesses. It's just kind of been hard to fully find a flow with.
- [39:55]
A
Yeah, 100%. And I think that's just always been the X factor of, like, the challenge of it, which I appreciate for us, like, for the last three plus years, navigating it in a very wonky way because, you know, it's. I've been just unbelievably grateful for everything this podcast has offered in terms of connection and community and how much support has been offered to so many different people. Like, I'll never lose sight of that. And I think that's important to just, you know, that's always what helped us keep going when we had to navigate all of these complex behind the scenes, like, logistics of two humans who own businesses, who have different time zones, different scheduling needs, different.
- [40:47]
C
Different circadian rhythms. Like, by the time I wake up is when your body is, like, shutting down.
- [40:54]
A
I can already feel it right now.
- [40:55]
C
Yeah. And my body's finally like, oh, yeah, we can be awake now. I'm okay with this. 1120.
- [41:02]
A
Yeah. And I think we've thrown around the idea of potentially trying to find a recording studio and do our seasons maybe potentially in person together and mess around with that idea. So we're kind of trying to figure out what comes next, but we expect to have another season out in the fall. We just don't know when. And we'll obviously keep people updated when we have that information. And yeah, like you said, if the moment is right, then we can both hop on and record about something that feels good, but. And finish these manuscripts that.
- [41:42]
D
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [41:46]
C
Yeah.
- [41:51]
A
So do you want to do the final awkward goodbye for now?
- [41:56]
C
I think I just did it. I was like. I think that awkward pause was. No, I was just. I think it was hitting me of, like, it feel this, like, feels more like a goodbye than I was thinking it would feel like. So I was like, I think not even. I was just noticing that I wasn't even at the point in processing. But it's not a goodbye. But I. I guess it is a goodbye of the way we've done it the last three and a half years as we shift to something that will hopefully feel more sustainable and.
- [42:27]
A
Yes.
- [42:28]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm happy to do the awkward goodbye.
- [42:34]
A
And think it's been done.
- [42:35]
C
Oh, I guess so. We always do our, like, subscribe, blah, blah, blah. If you do want to. Oh, my gosh, my voice. See, we're definitely at. At our time limit. If you do want to subscribe, that'll guarantee, like, when we come back that way, you'll see the show. Otherwise it'd be easy to miss. So if you subscribe, when we're back in the fall, we'll be in your, your algorithm. So wherever you find podcasts, that would be a good time to do that. If you're not yet. Well done.
- [43:09]
A
All done. Yeah. So we will see you in a couple months. Be safe. Do what you need to do to get through. I think that's important right now. And don't do it alone. Community and connection are, are going to be absolutely crucial. So. All right.
- [43:40]
C
Hey, it's Dr. Neff here. This season we are clearly talking about autistic burnout, a topic that neurodivergent Insights has covered extensively. So if you would like more resources to supplement your learning, we've put together a page where we've curated all of our autistic burnout resources freed and paid resources. We have lots of articles on autistic burnout. We have a upcoming free email course. It's going to be released soon. We have workbooks on autistic burnout. So if you'd like to check out our resources again, both free and paid, you can go to neurodivergentinsights.com burnout resources. It's linked below and in the show notes. I hope you don't need these resources, but if you do, they are there for you.