Episode 86: Psychodynamic Theory (Part 1): Bridging Science With Soul [featuring Dr. Karissa Burnett]

Summary

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Episode 86: Psychodynamic Theory (Part 1): Bridging Science With Soul [featuring Dr. Karissa Burnett]

Overview

In this rich and candid episode of Divergent Conversations, hosts Dr. Megan Anna Neff and Patrick Casale are joined by Dr. Karissa Burnett, a trailblazing depth psychologist, trauma specialist, and late-diagnosed AuDHDer (Autistic-ADHDer). Together, they dive into the value of psychodynamic and depth-oriented therapy for neurodivergent people, challenging stereotypes that claim autistic people “can’t do” deep therapeutic work. The conversation weaves personal anecdotes, professional insights, and lively humor, exploring how depth psychology (psychoanalytic theory, Jungian concepts, Internal Family Systems) can help neurodivergent individuals access self-understanding, integration, and healing. The discussion also touches on authenticity, masking, projection, trauma, and the collective shadow—while modeling the very “in the weeds” conversational curiosity they advocate.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Humor, Authenticity & The Crotch Painting Icebreaker

• [03:00-13:00] The episode kicks off with a humorous exchange about Patrick’s “crotch painting” backdrop, which becomes a playful case study unpacking autistic communication styles, boundaries, and overthinking.
  • Karissa's process: She explains her meticulous internal debate about whether to ask Patrick to shift the painting, describing “three hours” of rumination—mirroring autistic anxieties about being "too much" or "too sensitive."
    • "I'm in between a crotch and a hard place right now." (C, 05:19)
  • Megan reveals she also noticed it but chose not to bring it up for months, second-guessing if she was overreacting and deferring to Patrick’s comfort.
  • The exchange becomes a live analysis of masking, people-pleasing, and situational sensitivity among neurodivergent folk.

2. Challenging Harmful Stereotypes of Autistic People & Therapy

• [14:00-21:00] Dr. Burnett challenges the field’s bias that autistic individuals “aren’t capable” of depth-oriented psychodynamic therapy, debunking myths about literalism and lack of introspection.
  • “They don’t have an imagination, they’re too literal, so they can't do any symbolic stuff—just these awful, harmful, incorrect stereotypes.” (C, 15:40)
• Hosts’ Experiences: Both Megan and Karissa found CBT and skills-based modalities unfulfilling, whereas depth-oriented therapy provided the “why” and held their existential struggles.
  • “I tried a lot of therapies, and it wasn't until I worked with a psychoanalytic therapist that therapy finally worked for me.” (B, 16:35)

3. Alignment of Depth Work & Neurodivergent Strengths

• [21:00-30:00] Discussion of autistic strengths:
  • Pattern recognition, attention to detail, deep processing, natural introspection (often survival-driven from masking).
• Depth Healing: The need for understanding “why”—the narratives and patterns leading to behaviors and suffering—make depth work a natural fit for many autistic people.
  • Karissa and Megan introduce Internal Family Systems (IFS) as an accessible way of doing depth work through concrete "parts" language.

4. Making the Unconscious Conscious & Social Discomfort

• [24:15-29:15] Karissa introduces her realization: autistic people often naturally make the unconscious conscious, which discomforts others and triggers social resistance.
  • "Maybe we often mirror things to people... even just being ourselves can be enough for people to have a reaction. How dare they! That comes from their shadow..." (C, 25:19)
• Metaphors: Megan shares her unwritten children’s book metaphor – being born as someone whose “body and soul signals where society is ailing,” tying this to the “canary in the coal mine” and the shadow work that’s required.
• The group discusses the diversity within the autistic spectrum and the need not to monolithize hypersensitivity or introspection.

5. Masking, Dissociation & Alexithymia

• [31:00-35:00] Deep dive into the origins and functions of alexithymia (difficulty identifying and describing emotions), dissociation, and masking in autism.
  • Karissa views alexithymia often through the trauma lens: “When you have to repress emotion to survive—because stimming is punished, or being different isn’t allowed—it has to go somewhere.” (C, 33:19)
  • Megan notes that post-discovery, many undergo a "thawing" of emotions and sensory experiences due to released dissociation.
• Importance of agency and courage in asking for accommodations and expressing discomfort.

6. The Power & Risk of Authenticity

• [36:00-38:00] Patrick shares that when he shows up “just as he is,” others have told him it gives them permission to be at ease—and reflects on the cost when society cannot tolerate this authenticity.
  • "It's a damn shame when we have to work so damn hard to repress or mask it because of how much of a strength that is…" (A, 37:28)
• Karissa highlights the shadow side: envy and discomfort in others may trigger exclusion and projection as a defense against their own repression.

7. Collective Shadow, Projection, & The Political Moment

• [38:00-49:00] Using the recent U.S. election as a cultural case, Karissa introduces the concept of the "collective shadow"—how unexamined societal biases and fears get projected onto marginalized groups.
  • “Powerful figures... create an illusion of security by scapegoating differences, which actually protects power structures that harm the vulnerable.” (C, 41:23)
• Megan and Patrick discuss interpersonal and collective projection, grief, and the tendency of progressives to critique within their own ranks rather than unify when under threat.
  • “Once I understood [projection], it helped ground me both in my therapeutic work and as a parent...and I love that you're bringing it into the collective space.” (B, 42:15)
• The group highlights how scapegoating and projection maintain oppressive systems and deepen rifts on both the societal and interpersonal level.

8. Therapeutic Assessment: Bridging Science & Soul

• [50:09-56:30] Dr. Burnett explains her unique “Science with Soul” assessment approach, integrating rigorous quantitative neuropsychological testing with deep, collaborative, phenomenological exploration.
  • “I journey with people in assessments...I want to get it right, to have the right shade [for] the truth of their experience. I almost view it as a crucible." (C, 10:05; C, 50:58)
• Rather than a binary “you’re autistic or not,” Karissa guides clients through their life histories, trauma, and secondary mental health layers, aiming for insight, validation, and self-compassion.
  • “It’s the first time they felt truly seen. It’s sad they haven’t gotten that before.” (C, 54:52)

9. Insight from Depth Psychology for Neurodivergent Healing

• Corrective Emotional Experience: Calling out internalized shame and ableist patterns in real time during assessment and feedback.
• Energy and Countertransference: Noticing when she matches a client’s dissociative state or emotional energy (even via telehealth), using this as a cue to check in and reflect the process back.
• Defenses as Secondary Diagnoses: Karissa reframes anxiety and depression as “defenses”—adaptive strategies to survive trauma and unacknowledged rejection sensitivity.
  • “Generalized anxiety disorder is often a defense against rejection sensitive dysphoria… depression as a defense against anger.” (C, 59:10)

10. Integration, True Selves, and the Healing Journey

• [61:11-65:00] Integration of neurodivergent identity is described not as a return to the "false" self, but as an ever-expanding access to more pieces of one's true self.
  • “A lot of these secondary mental health conditions—anxiety, social anxiety, depression—become less intense or fade when our autistic or neurodivergent identities are integrated.” (C, 62:00)
• Integration allows for reclaiming the gold within the “shadow”—the strengths once framed as weaknesses.

11. Obsessive Thinking as a Defense Against Feeling

• [66:12-71:42] In a closing insight, Dr. Burnett shares her psychoanalytic take on obsessive thinking:
  • “With high masking autistic adults...there’s a tendency toward obsessive thinking. From a psychoanalytic perspective, OCD has at its root a drive to control the uncontrollable. Feelings—especially anger—get relegated to the dirt, and we intellectualize, ruminate, mask. Obsessive thought can be a defense against feeling.” (C, 68:45)
  • “There are a lot of creative ways that we avoid our emotions as neurodivergent people." (B, 69:41)

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Selected Memorable Quotes

• On Harmful Stereotypes:
  "They're too literal, so they can't do any kind of symbolic stuff—just these awful, harmful, incorrect stereotypes."
  — Karissa, 15:40

• On Making the Unconscious Conscious:
  "We often make the unconscious conscious, whether we realize it or not...it gives a little bit of insight into why perhaps society has such a problem with us."
  — Karissa, 25:19

• On Projection and Parenting:
  "With parenting, a PDA-er...there was a lot of projection that was happening. And once I understood that, it helped ground me both in my therapeutic work and as a parent."
  — Megan, 42:15

• On Repression and Authenticity:
  "It's a damn shame when we have to work so damn hard to repress or mask it, because of how much of a strength [authenticity] is..."
  — Patrick, 37:28

• On Corrective Emotional Experience:
  "It's really powerful to call clients out—in real time—on internalized ableism, and to see them feel safe being unmasked for the first time."
  — Karissa, 55:16

• On Integrating Identity:
  "A lot of these secondary mental health conditions—anxiety, social anxiety, depression—become less intense or fade when our autistic identities are integrated."
  — Karissa, 62:00

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Notable Timestamps

• [05:19] — Karissa's internal debate about the "crotch painting"
• [15:40] — On stereotypes about autistic people's capacity for depth work
• [25:19] — On making the unconscious conscious (collective discomfort with ND authenticity)
• [29:19-35:00] — Masking, alexithymia, and dissociation; trauma lens
• [37:28] — Patrick on the value and fallout from authenticity
• [41:23] — Collective shadow and the political moment
• [50:09-56:30] — Therapeutic assessment: "Science with soul"
• [59:10] — Anxiety/depression as defensive adaptations
• [62:00] — Identity integration as healing agent
• [68:45] — Obsessive thinking as a defense against feeling

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Resources & Where to Find Dr. Karissa Burnett

• Website & Waitlist: divergentpathways.com
  • Offers therapeutic psychological assessments (adults in MA, CA, WA via telehealth)
  • Extensive resource and advocacy section
• Consultation: Provides consultation to clinicians worldwide
• Facebook: facebook.com/divergentpathways

"It's an honor to journey with people through these assessments. I want to get it right, to have the right shade for the truth of their experience."
— Dr. Karissa Burnett

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Episode Flow & Tone

The episode is dynamic, emotionally nuanced, and filled with gentle humor and deep validation. The hosts and guest model vulnerability, circuitous curiosity, playful analysis, and affirming respect for each other’s strengths and differences—a living example of the “bridging science and soul” that is their theme.

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End of summary. For full show notes and resources, visit divergentpod.com or follow on Instagram @divergentconversations.

Transcript

[A]

Hey everyone. You are listening to the Divergent Conversations podcast. We are two neurodivergent mental health professionals in a neurotypical world. I'm Patrick cassell.

[B]

And I'm Dr. Neff.

[A]

And during these episodes we do talk about sensitive subjects, mental health. And there are some conversations that can certainly feel a bit overwhelming. So we do just want to use that disclosure and disclaimer before jumping in. And thanks for listening.

[C]

Foreign.

[A]

Welcome back to Divergent Conversations. Today we have Dr. Carissa Burnett. She.

[B]

Her.

[A]

She is a trailblazing depth psychologist and a trauma specialist known for bridging sciences with soul, which I love that statement. As the founder of Divergent Pathways and a late diagnosed autistic adhder herself, she provides transformative therapeutic assessments that empower clients to embrace their authentic selves. Featured in the American Psychological association monitors on Psychology magazine for advancing neurodiversity affirming care. Dr. Burnett advocates for disability justice, providing consultation to the ACLU and using her voice to promote, promote systemic change. Also a fantastic dancer. Found this out in Italy firsthand, you know, when you were dancing with that old Italian man at the restaurant. So that was also super cool.

[C]

Wow. Thank you. Good to be here with you both. Oh, yeah.

[B]

It's so good to have you. I, like, I don't know if you know this, but you were one of the first. I think you were the person that connected me to like the neurodiversity affirming space like I was. I met you like a month into my discovery on can't remember what Facebook group it was. It was like maybe autistic women or something. And you told me about the, like the traditional Facebook group for ND affirming. And like, I didn't even know that was a thing like neurodiversion affirming. So you were like my gateway into the nd, like, finding all the other people who were thinking about ND affirming work. So thank you.

[A]

Oh, wait, hold on. So after my discovery, Carissa, I text you because you had just taken one of my courses to say, like, hey, I got these results. Can you help explain them to me and help me make sense of them? And then you sent me like a 12 minute voice memo making sense of everything that I needed to make sense of. So just want to thank you for that too.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

How are you doing with all these compliments?

[C]

Yeah, no, that's really profound and beautiful and means a lot to hear that. And yeah, I know, I know this is a long time coming and it's really just such an honor to be here with you both. I'm so proud of you and so appreciative of what you've created and all you've done for the community, and you're just so awesome. So excited for this conversation. Thank you for having me.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited for our conversation. And I want to start by putting you on the spot a little bit and ask you to analyze us. So something funny happened last night. Patrick let me know that you had texted him, asking him if there's a painting that he could remove before this recording, which we can call the crotch painting. Do you want to. Well, first. Well, okay, I'll guess I'll show you the context. So I started laughing immediately because I think that painting showed up in Patrick's backdrop. I don't know, like two months ago, maybe three months ago. Patrick. And the first time I logged in, I was like, oh, I'm looking at a crotch. And then there's Patrick's face. Do I tell him? And I was like, well, I know this painting's really meaningful to him. I think it's funny, but. And it might look a little bit weird on our YouTube channel, but I don't think I'm gonna say anything. So for like, two or three months, I just didn't say anything. But every single week we've recorded, and I see, like, the crotch. And then Patrick said. I'm like, this is kind of weird, but you actually. You had a similar thought, but you said something. So I'm curious. Can you analyze our personalities? What is it about me that I sat with this for three months and didn't say anything? What is it about you that you were, like, confident enough to be like, patrick, can you remove that painting before we record? And what does it say about Patrick that he has a crotch painting in his background?

[C]

Wow. Wow. So I'll answer in roundabout, bottom up fashion. Yeah. So of course I'm prepping, right? And I look, because I gotta. I wanna, like, get my lighting right. I wanna, like, match and make it, like, look nice if I can. And I'm watching some of the clips and I just can't keep my eyes off of this crotch, right? And. And no matter what, I'm like, wow. Like, I know it's a really meaningful painting. I know it's Anthony Bourdain. Like, shit, what do I do? I'm in a crotch between a crotch and a hard place, right? Like, what do I do? And I'm, like, going back and forth like, ah. And can I, you know, ah. I don't want to. Oh. And then. Ugh. But I don't think he probably realizes, you know, and he could just like, shift it down like six inches. He doesn't even have to change it, you know, and then, like, I don't know. I think. I think he would want to know. But do I do it to the group text? I should probably do it just to him in case I got to protect him, you know, I can't.

[B]

Like, it's like letting someone know their fly is down. Like, when you let someone know their flies down, you, like, do it quietly or not. Like, announcement.

[C]

Yeah, it is a very good comparison, I suppose. Yeah.

[B]

Literally.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, there was certainly quite a bit of like, well, maybe I'm just too sensitive and maybe I'm just a perv or something. Or, you know, but then as I'm prepping to, I'm seeing, like, the stats again. Well, like, 90% of autistic women have been sexually assaulted. Like, you know, maybe there is something to the idea of a dominating man, spread crotch, staring at, you know, that would have an impact even on a subtle, unconscious level, you know, and maybe he'd want to know. So that's what ultimately led me to reach out to him. But it wasn't just like a confident. Like, this was like a three hour process, you know, so that's interesting.

[B]

That really captures, like, the autistic rumination experience. Yeah, you put a lot of thinking into that. Was it scary to reach out?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, a little bit. But I mean, by the time I did it, almost like, I waited till, like, all right, oh, no, I got. I gotta do it, you know, And I thought about it in million different ways and ba, ba, ba. So then. Yeah. But I figured it felt like the right thing because I know Patrick, right? And I think he'd want to know also. I didn't want to hurt his feelings, though. And I knew he could move it down a little, so that helped.

[B]

So you knew it was fixable. Like, this is. You saw it as a problem. And you also knew this is something fixable. And you also thought about, like, this. I think this is value consistent for Patrick.

[C]

Right. Beautiful.

[B]

Well, now I feel really shitty.

[C]

I look at the gymnastics, though. That's a lot.

[A]

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

[B]

I feel so shitty for sitting on this for three months.

[A]

I was gonna say Karissa, now we need to know the analysis of Megan for sitting on it for three months.

[C]

I. I mean, I. I don't know. I would. I would be curious if, if any of the things I described resonated with you, Megan, to the point of, like, questioning whether you're the only one it's affecting or if maybe you're being too XYZ or whatever. Does that.

[B]

I think it does. Because, like, I know Patrick does a lot of podcasts, so I was like, well, like, he's got to have some insight into how it looks, because I just. I think of Patrick as more comfortable in the podcast space than me and that. Like, yeah, I think I did. I don't. I don't know how conscious it became, but I did think I was like, maybe I am a perv for, like, paying attention to this or, like, this being on my mind. I did what you brought, though. You were also thinking about the unconscious, like, how this would unconsciously affect listeners and that I. I hadn't gone there yet. I wish I had. I think that's. That is a really insightful point. Yeah.

[C]

Thank you. Yeah. Interesting. I mean, who. Like insight. Yes. Also obsessive. Yes. Like, curated background. You know, like, I'm woo. I think about those things a lot. I notice things like that. Pay attention to things like that. Blessing and a curse.

[B]

But, yeah, yeah, yeah. It makes you so. I mean, I know a bit of your work. I know you do a lot of assessments, and I know how much detail you put into it and how much of. Well, speaking of soul, like, how much of your soul you put into it, which I think makes for exquisite affirming autism assessments. But I know, like, takes a ton out of you because of the complexity and the nuance and this, the layers of which you are thinking about people's experience.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for seeing me. Absolutely. It's an honor. And I mean, I take it seriously, like, journeying with people in assessments. I think we'll probably talk about that a little bit more as the podcast goes on, but I don't want to get it wrong, and I care a lot about how I write the thing, and I want it to have the right shade of the thing to really convey the truth of their experience. Probably a lot of that comes from medical gaslighting and reading things myself. You know, it hurts, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[B]

Yeah, I think we will. We will get. I want to get into, like, autism affirming analytic assessments.

[C]

We'll do that. Yep.

[B]

But we haven't even, like, addressed Patrick with this painting yet.

[C]

Oh, yes.

[B]

How are you feeling about all of this information about your backdrop on not, I guess, not just this podcast, but also it would be the backdrop on your other podcast.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so where to start? The starting point is that it's clearly not my backdrop right now because I'm not in my home. So when I got your text, I was like, oh, well, this isn't even. This is a moot point, right? That was going to be my immediate response of like, oh, it's not a big deal. I'm not home. But then I thought more about it. I said, if Chrissa put a lot of energy and thought into this, which I know you, so I know that you did. I was like, I. She deserves to be answered in a way that feels validating and affirming. But I first did tell Megan this last night because couldn't sleep, and Megan is three hours behind me, so she's awake. I'm talking to her about not being able to sleep. I'm talking about this text message, and she's laughing and she's like, oh, I should have said something a long time ago. And the reality is twofold. One, my stupid little external camera points down instead of up, which doesn't help. So it's always the wrong angle when that camera is on. And two, I am lazy. Like, I have definitely noticed before that I don't love the angle. But then I start doing something, and I immediately forget that it's even a thing that I need to pay attention to in the moment. So the first thing I do, I go to Asheville tomorrow from Florida. I'm going to shift the painting down six inches, maybe 12. We'll see. But I appreciate you naming that. You know, I think. And I want to segue into something that I don't know if you feel comfortable talking about, and if not, we can edit it out, but is asking for our accommodations to be met and asking for what we need in order to be comfortable and feeling like we have the ability to take up that space. So in Italy, I think you and I had several conversations about accommodations in general. And just the fact that. And I told you this in person, that you felt comfortable enough to do so, I thought meant a lot. But I also give you a lot of credit because I know so many of us really struggle to. To speak up, to voice how we're feeling or experience something or communicate it in general. And I also know, like you said, like, is it me just being, quote, unquote, too much? Is it just being. Being too sensitive? Right, so.

[C]

Oh, yeah, Absolutely. Huh? Yeah. Thank you. I mean, honestly, I'm amazed that you are talking about the crotch painting on the podcast. What, like I like really, you know, the fly is that whatever. And so that's really corrective and cool, you know, and it's real and we all have things we don't realize or see or whatever. And it's really cool that you could hear it, take it, feel the feels, whatever, but then process it with your friend, you know, and be kind to me back and you know, these are the kinds of things that are, are really corrective and important. Yeah.

[B]

Yes. Thank you, Patrick, for.

[A]

I didn't realize that we were going to have so much jumping off point today.

[C]

Oh yeah.

[A]

So happy to supply that conversation.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah, I'll take the segue, I guess. I mean even just this, what we just did with the crotch painting, I mean it goes to show like this. So we're going to talk about psychoanalytic theory, wisdom therapy, ideas, all that. Right. So and I'd say like depth oriented because that includes like Carl Jung and stuff that's more, more my speed, but all of it. But you know, like the way we, we just went in depth about that, for example. So one of the things I want to start with is like in training and in general in the field at least I heard several times autistic people can't do psychoanalytic, depth oriented psychodynamic therapy. Oh, they're autistic? Nope. They need cbt, certainly aba, Right. And you know, in adults, the cbt, et cetera, probably a little bit of an extension of that assumption with just behavioral stuff only. But beyond that, like, you know, they don't have an imagination or they don't, they're not self reflective, they're not introspective, they can't, you know, they're too literal. So they can't do any kind of symbolic stuff like just these awful, harmful, incorrect stereotypes and assumptions made that autistic people can't do this depth oriented kind of work when actually I think it's the opposite.

[B]

Yeah, I love that you brought that up. I also was, I was thinking the same thing of like we just did what we're talking about where we took something kind of, we took an interaction and then we went deep with it to understand kind of the underpinnings. And that is what I love about, about depth work is you, you these everyday moments become these portals to much deeper self understanding and much deeper like interpersonal understanding. And I, I love that work. It's so generative, it's so engaging. And I've also, I also heard, not as much as you, because I didn't go to as focused of a psychodynamic training program as you. But I have heard similar things around CBT for autism. And yeah, that we can't do depth work. Whereas for me, like, I tried a lot of therapies, and it wasn't until I worked with a psychoanalytic therapist that I finally. That therapy finally worked for me. And yeah, I see it being such a rich frame of therapy for many of us. Not for all of us, because no therapy works for all of us, but for many of us.

[C]

Yeah, if we think about some of the common autistic strengths, and of course, it can look different for everybody. And we all have different profiles, different strengths. But in general, right. There often is heightened pattern recognition and a lot of, like, attention to detail and different nuances. Right. And there's this, like, deep processing, and often there is a lot of introspection and self reflection partially driven by masking and survival. Right, Maybe to start, but. But these are all things that really align with depth work. And I'm just thinking about, like, when I was younger, all these different therapies and stuff. It wasn't till working with a union therapist that I found I was like, oh, I could understand because what the psychoanalytic stuff does. Psychodynamic is like the modern term that gets used. You might hear us use it interchangeably, or depth. You know, that. That's it too. But, like, it explains the why. So I could try all day long, like, CBT things, replace the thing with this, or, you know, just try to do this instead of that thought or whatever. But. But why? Like, what. Why can't it. Why isn't it working? And then I would feel broken even more. Because, like, well, I'm doing the things I can't. It's on a worksheet. I mean, geez, like, why can't I do this worksheet? Like, I'm trying. Like, there must be something wrong. And certainly, you know, neuronormative. That's part of it. But also I needed to understand the why, and I think a lot of us do. It's logical to understand the why, the patterns, how childhood things form templates, et cetera.

[B]

I was the exact same way. And I had so many whys, especially until identification, because the math didn't add up. The internal suffering that I experienced and the level of mental health struggles I experienced didn't match up with my external life. It didn't make sense. And so I had a lot of whys and. And a lot of those were also deeply existential. And I Needed a container that could hold that complexity. Yeah. I've also found with CBT tendency, because our brains are so, I think, often complex, that it tends. What I notice is it tends to get into like a wrestling match. So maybe we're like reframing a thought and then like if I try to reframe a thought, then I'm going to have a counter voice that's arguing with the reframed thought and then I'm like four steps down where I'm, I'm arguing with myself and I'm more entrenched in the struggle rather than like, oh, I've reframed that and now I'm moving on.

[C]

That's where parts work can be helpful, which is also psychoanalytic depth style. Yes.

[B]

Yeah, I've noticed that ifs so Internal Family Systems is a really popular framework for a lot of both autistic and ADHD folks. And I think it's neat because it combines depth work and it has something very concrete to anchor in when we start talking about parts. Like it's a very concrete. Like I can externalize, I can talk about that part. And so, yeah, I think that can be a really powerful access point for a lot of us.

[C]

Absolutely. Yeah. I feel like I've heard you two talk about before and maybe even you, Patrick, especially like energy stuff. I don't know. This is where, when I learned about Carl Jung especially and like the collective unconscious and synchronicities. Right. And whoa, like almost like this magical soul aspect that there could be room for that and like this depth of meaning and stuff, it really aligned with this like just energetic attunement or pattern, depth of feeling, vibes thing that I had experienced. And I guess I was curious if that's part of your experience too, Patrick, or what you meant by energy.

[A]

Yeah, I, I think I've always felt that way in terms of being able to pick up on energy and receive energy. And I think that it's, it's an interesting phenomenon for me because I haven't really explored a lot of depth oriented therapeutic modalities aside from maybe ifs to some degree. I've never done any psychoanalytic or psychodynamic. Stayed very much in like the solution focus, cbt, dbt, all the db, all the bts, um, and none of those ever worked for me. And like Megan was saying just, just that existential processing and having. And you, Chris is saying like wanting to know the meaning of things and wanting to get to the bottom of things. But I'm also like my My being is like constantly scanning for understanding energy around me. And I've never really been able to put words to that. You had said something to me in Italy about that, and I was like, huh. You know, because when we use like, I'm just thinking of a. A Facebook post I made last night about looking for my own therapist. And I was like, I don't really want anyone who's like, too quote woo. Right. And you and I were kind of talking about this in Italy, and you were like, well, picking up on energy and intuition is definitely like a version of that. It's in itself too. And I was like, huh. I had never processed thinking about this this way before.

[B]

I think that's one of the reasons I like psycho. Like psychodynamic theory and particularly the idea of the collective unconscious is it provides. Because I'm similar to you, Patrick, in that, like, I'm a weird mix of, like, I. I get uncomfortable around a lot of woo and people that lead with a lot of that energy. It feels a little bit overwhelming for me. But in my personal life, in a very structured way, I have a lot of things, especially around energy and connection, that would look and be very woo, but it's got an. Kind of intellectual framing around it. And I think that's part of what some of analytics theory does is it provides a robust framework to understand some of these experiences. Like, I think a lot of us are pretty tapped into the collective unconscious and have these really profound, what some might call spiritual experiences around that. So I know for me, especially as I was moving away from religion, having an alternative framework to capture these experiences that I have has been really powerful.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I honestly haven't done as intense research into this as I want to someday. But, you know, I've heard it said and theorized and felt that perhaps historically, you know, witches, oracles, sham. Absolutely. Hermits, like, maybe. Maybe they tended to be autistic. Sometimes, you know, there's something to it possibly. Right. I certainly resonate with that. And so there's this interesting thing I realized in prepping for this that I thought was pretty cool, that I'll say now, no, we'll go from there. Like I realized, autistic people often make the unconscious conscious frequently. Right. So, like, through our natural ways of just being in the world, the making the unconscious conscious thing, that that term is used in psychoanalytic theory. That's like the thing, like, that's what we do. We want to make the unconscious conscious. That's how healing happens. We want to get insight into that and realize what's going on underneath. Right. And again, like why maybe actually depth work is. It aligns with us, but also just in general. Maybe why things are tough sometimes, but also some strengths maybe worth worth exploring a little bit. Like, I think we're often making the unconscious conscious whether we realize it or not, just through picking up on more things. Depth of processing, often just answering things truthfully or not going along with the neuronormative script that's expected. You know, it's almost like we often mirror things to people. Well, maybe we don't always even attend to. Right. Or even if we're just sitting there and maybe stimming a little or just not even just being ourselves to some degree. Like that could be enough for people to have a reaction sometimes. How dare they kind of. Right. And that comes from like their shadow would be the idea. Because they're not allowed to be their true selves on some level. Right. There's something to this, like, this kind of stuff kind of. It doesn't explain, but it gives a little bit of insight into why perhaps society has such a problem with us sometimes.

[B]

Why we make society uncomfortable because it's shining a light on. On an unconscious. That's a really interesting idea, Carissa.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Is that. Is that a new thing? Like, how have you both conceptualized that before?

[B]

It's slightly different, but I have this children's book that like wrote itself in my head that I wish I like, had the skills to actually turn into a children's book. But the idea of this children's book is it's a child that's like, about to depart to be born on the earth, and it's talking to a divine being and it's given an option, like, you can have this life and kind of a like description of a neurotypical life, or you can have this life and you're going to feel things really sensitively. You're going to like these. These will be some of the strengths that come with it. But there's a sacrifice to pay is that you are going to be the signal to society of what is not working. So, like, your body will more sensitively react to the toxins. Your. You will be. You will be tied to authenticity. But it's. And it will be a signal for society to help society. But it's going to be hard.

[C]

Nice if they listened.

[B]

Yeah, it would.

[C]

It would.

[B]

And then I've also seen this metaphor of like the. And words and metaphors and morning fog, the coal mine, the Bird in the coal mine.

[C]

Oh, yeah. Canary in the coal mine. Yeah.

[B]

Yes, absolutely.

[C]

That.

[B]

That's kind of the autistic experience of how both on a like. Again, a bodily level of like, we do tend to respond more sensitively to toxins in the environment. So we're often signaling to humanity kind of sacrificially where we're going awry and so.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

That idea. I feel like that idea connects to this idea that you're playing with around. We make things. We make the unconscious conscious. That there's something about our presence that is often deeply authentic that can be really uncomfortable to be around and that the things we signal toward can be really uncomfortable to be around.

[C]

Yeah, but the idea is that, you know, it takes what you're saying, which. Absolutely. I think that's very true. But then adds this layer of, why don't they listen? Why are they uncomfortable? Right. Because it could be, wow, the canary in the coal mine. The canary's tweeting or not. Oh, no, we should listen. But that doesn't really go that way. Right. It's more of a. Oppression is often the reaction or punishment or gaslighting or. That didn't happen. I didn't say it like that. You're not feeling that correctly. Et cetera. Right. That tends to be a pretty common experience. So it's unfortunate, at least from what I've experienced and seen. Often the sensitivity, this keen sense of maybe what's happening, intuition, feeling, vibe. We take in way more stimuli from the environment. It makes sense to me that we're processing things Right. Like. And have a pulse on it when it's. When it's consistently, chronically invalidated, gaslit, punished. I think a lot of us turn it off and we. We learn to not listen to our emotional compass. We dissociate it away. Alexithymia, I think, is in here a little bit, if we want to look at it from this perspective.

[B]

Well, I was thinking about that even as I was talking, and I was getting a little bit uncomfortable, and my brain was doing the thing of, like, I'm saying an idea, but I'm also critiquing my idea as I say my idea. And I'm like, okay. I feel like in our conversation so far, we're kind of leaving out the, like more the stereotypical presentation of autism with high alexithymia, with hyposense. Hyposensitive, where it's like, I am like. With high alexithymia, it is more common to be externally oriented, thinking versus internal, reflective. So I love that you brought up alexithymia. And I, I'm still like, I'm still sorting out. I've heard the idea that behind every hypo sensory person is a hypersensitive person. I like that idea. I'm not sure I fully agree with it because I think, I think nerve, like neurologically it's maybe a little bit more complex than that. But I, yeah, that is a tension I feel around this conversation. Whenever we talk about the hypersensitivity of the autistic experience or even like right now, you know, when folks are talking about the hypersensitivity of how we're experiencing this election right now. Like there's also like autistic people who helped the current, the president coming in get elected. So like there's, there's not. Or like just a sensitivity. There's not a monolith of autistic experiences. And so I always, I always get in pretzels with this conversation. And I do think, and I think our podcast listeners, I think we tend to attract the like hyper sensitive autistic person. But the autistic experience is so broad. I just said a lot.

[C]

Yeah, I mean we can't know for sure. Certainly I don't know for sure and very much open to learning, but at least from the research I've done in clinical experience and I certainly might attract a certain type of client, et cetera. But my impression is alexithymia comes from the trauma literature and we look at it that way. It makes sense to me if in autism, right, there's different types of hyper and hypo connectivity and it is unique depending on the person, et cetera. But maybe, maybe, I mean, I'm not sure. But in theory, right, if on some level big emotion for whatever, like, you know, and often punished for stimming, need to repress it, can't look different, can't notice things different, can't pick up on, can't behave different, et cetera, what's going to happen to the feelings? They need to go somewhere. And I think one of the ways they could be handled at a young age perhaps is to be dissociated away and then the focus is on other people.

[B]

Well, and this is so common post discovery where people will be like, I'm struggling more now and I know I was like that, like my sensory stuff got more intense and it's because I was thawing out because I had coped with so much dissociation, especially from my body, so that I, I see that a lot where post discovery like, sensory stuff gets more intense. Emotions can get more intense because it's. There's that. There is that, like, thigh thawing out of that kind of chronic hypoarousal alexithymic state that many of us have gone to protectively. Yeah, absolutely.

[C]

Yeah, totally. Yeah. I have a thing about the election. I could say, Patrick, did you want to say anything on this piece first, or what do you think?

[A]

I really like that you're moderating right now, so thank you for that.

[C]

I want you to be included.

[A]

I appreciate it. I'm. No, I'm enjoying what we're talking about. And I probably am just thinking, reflecting.

[C]

Okay. You'll hop in when. When you want to.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Sweet. And I just interrupted you. Maybe you were gonna say something. Okay.

[A]

I was going to say, like, to a couple points back. Just that there becomes this almost, like, repression state in terms of even circling back to the crotch painting situation, of I don't want to be too much. Right. Like, I don't want to come across as. There's always something with me. And that's something that I've felt my entire life. So it's something I'm very aware of, like, how I navigate not only in social situations, and whether that be masking or complete dissociation, but I think it leads to people pleasing, too, in a lot of situations. And what you were saying, Carissa. Sorry. I'm just listening to, like, planes fly overhead of my hotel, distracting me. Just that. That. That sense of being and being really authentic and responding authentically and maybe stimming a little bit, like you're mentioning, and how people can get irritated with that. Like, how that can eliminate the shadow side. I really like that perspective because for a lot of people who may experience autistic people out in public doing those things or being really authentic or being really direct with communication, they may really wish that they could be those things. And they get so frustrated, right. Of, like, how come I can't just respond this way? How come I can't interact this way? And diverging to a different thought is in my retreats. I think about this a lot. People will say to me similar stuff that you said to me when we were talking privately, that I make people feel very, very comfortable by just being. And I've always tried to put words to that because I've never really been able to create. Figure out how to openly state that. But that really helps give me perspective by. If we consistently show up very authentically and just allowing ourselves to be ourselves, and how that has a Ripple effect within. And I think that is really, really powerful. And it's a damn shame when we have to work so damn hard to repress it or mask it or suppress it because of how much of a strength that I. I look at it from that lens in terms of just that whole state of being. My words are getting jumbled and I would associate that with.

[C]

Well, it's beautiful. Yeah, it's profound. Profound. Yeah. I mean, it reminds me of like hero, villain vibe. Right. And this is another thing like depth psychology offers, like with the light shadow, like everything's got a shadow. Side side note, hero's journey also comes from this archetypes. Right. Like, I just know you like Lord of the Rings, Patrick. So like when we are our true selves. Right. In theory, it really like part of why I love the hermit archetype and the lantern is like my branding, like my thing. Right. I loved when I learned that the hermit not only is a hermit, because, yeah, I'm a total hermit, but also they've got their lantern and they're kind of like lighting the path and they're kind of ahead of their time and it's kind of lonely. Right. But they're also kind of like, you know, there's like something powerful to that where you could like inspire like, like, like other people, like show them that there is light and they realize they have the light in themselves, you know, and they can like be with you too, and you can all be lit up together. Right. It's really sad, tragic, unnecessary, and causes a lot of harm when people don't think they have that light within them or don't realize they can too, or, you know, then the envy piece comes in, which maybe has more of like a destructive vibe to it. So both could be true or both could be the reaction to the same thing just from you sitting there being yourself. I'm going to say the thing about the election now because it kind of segues in. Yeah, this, this is tough stuff. And, and this is just one view of it. I mean, you'll hear a million people say all the different things and why and what, etc. And I can't even imagine the pain and horror and terror that, that a lot of people are feeling and experiencing. That's very real right now. But in terms of depth psychology and why, it can offer a helpful frame or at least some light into this. Not only can it help give some insight into individual healing, but also collective. So there's this thing called the collective unconscious. And with that there's the collective shadow. Right. So when society's unexamined fears and biases, internalized oppression, for example, internalized ableism, transphobia, homophobia, sexism, xenophobia, racism, et cetera, et cetera. When they're not looked at, when they're ignored, they stay in the shadow. The shadow leaks out and is projected. And when that happens, they're all projected onto marginalized groups and then powerful figures, I. E. Trump, for example, could create an illusion of security by scapegoating differences, which actually is protecting wealth and equality, power structures that harm working people, vulnerable communities, the very things that he actually embodies, that he's clouding what's actually happening by scapegoating marginalized groups, saying it's their fault. Yeah, so might be obvious, but depth psychology aligns with the idea that we really need to look at these things, at these collective shadows, that America has, white people especially, we really need to do this work, examine all these internalized messages, narratives, oppressive aspects, biases, and be conscious of them so that we're not just projecting them and vulnerable to scapegoating people like this. Yeah, I really love that.

[B]

Projection in general has, I think, been perhaps the most significant psychoanalytic idea I've. I've learned. It was so helpful for me in my parenting because there was a lot with. With parenting, a PDA ER when she was in her toddler years, there was a lot of, like, projection that was happening. And once I understood that, and kids in general, well, correct me if I'm wrong here, but kids in general, like, they communicate through their behaviors, which is kind of a like. So we then get injected with the experience in their body and in their body. So, like, if you're a parent, you're experiencing a lot of projection. Like, you're experiencing the emotional experience of your child a lot of the time. And that. That framework has helped ground me both in my therapeutic work as a parent. But I love that you're bringing it into the collective space too, because I. I think it is really. It doesn't answer the big questions, but it's really grounding when we can understand that. And I think the temptation is like, I kind of feel like projection can be contagious. Like the contagion, that temptation is for it to have a ripple effect. Like, I. I've been very intentionally not plugged into the news right now, but there's. There's one podcast I listen to, but. And I was really. It was really sad to hear one of the reactions has been from the left to be telling to be telling Latino groups that things like, like you, I hope you get kicked out. Terrible, terrible things. But we're like, we're seeing projection happening within our own. Like those of us who are Democrat, those of us who are progressive, those of us who are grieving. I see the projection then continue like it's not. It continues into smaller and smaller groups to where we're hurting each other.

[C]

Absolutely. By design.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I think when we can understand that process so we can be like, wait a minute, this is not, this is not. This is not an energy I want to be contributing to. I'm don't, I don't need to figure.

[C]

Out who should really be mad at.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

[C]

People at the top.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's so intentionally done, you know, to create that division and that displacement of that emotion. And it's a lot easier to project that onto someone else than to say, like, let me really look inwards and see what we can do to elicit change or grow or learn from experiences. And yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about, Megan. It's heartbreaking to see stuff like that, like, I hope you get deported because you helped him get elected. Like, that is completely nonsensical. And it's, it almost creates fractures within some groups of people who have shared beliefs and ideologies, who no longer share those things because they're projecting grief, anger, fear, resentment, confusion, etc elsewhere.

[B]

So this is actually so Pod Save America is the one podcast that I can like metabolize right now and I find it grounding. But this is something that they have been talking about that I find really interesting. Is that so like with Fox News and kind of on the traditional right, or, or even some of the influencers, because apparently that was a big piece of why Trump won. When a, when someone from the right speaks, you don't have everyone in the right commenting, tearing that person down of like, well, you haven't checked, like you haven't checked your privileged here or this comment. Is this, or this comment. Is that like assigning. You know, there's a lot of character assigning that can happen of like, like you're ableist for having this or you're, you're racist or you're homophobic. There's a lot of that that happens in the social media space on the left. And what they were saying is on the left, if someone has a big audience and they're posting from their own people, they get like torn down and, and I think I'm going to tie it back I think partly what's happening, Carissa, is that the right, they're scapegoating the left and I mean, I guess are immigrants, but.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah, they're scapegoating trans people, immigrants.

[C]

Oh yeah.

[B]

Like all of them. Everyone insured.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. Yes.

[B]

And I guess, I mean, we do some of that back, but we like go in on ourselves and we're critiquing of each other in a way. Like anyone who's in the left and has a large following, like, you've got to have thick skin for when the comments come in. And it. There's not the same unified, like, voice as there is on the right. And I don't know if that has to do with. I mean, I have a few theories about what that has to do with, but I think this idea of projection might play into that.

[C]

Yeah. And I mean, who knows? But in theory, right? I, I didn't really hear anyone except Bernie back in the day. Be nice if that carried forward. Like, I didn't hear that the Democrats really currently talking much about how they're going to go after corporate greed and acknowledging that like top 1% has all the money. Right. And everybody, you know, people, people are suffering and in pain and what, 60% of Americans living paycheck to paycheck, probably higher than that. Who knows how they're getting that stat? Like, it's not good. Right. And when someone powerful and who represents the collective shadow of all these oppressive things says, I'll take care of you, you know, and it's their fault, not yours. Okay, Right. And it's, it's, it's messed up, it's gross, it's.

[B]

But yeah, this was another thing that, that they said over there was like, if you did a blind taste test of the policies, working class would choose, like 9 out of 10, they would choose Democrat policies. But it's the messaging, like, the messaging, we're not connecting to working class struggles.

[C]

We're not acknowledging. Yeah, yeah, right. So when it's unacknowledged, you know, I feel like the, you know, the right. It gave them an answer. It gave them a why.

[B]

Oh my gosh, it's about it a really clear why. This is why you are struggling. And here's what we're going to do about it. Even though if you do a deep dive into the policies, it's, it's not going to help working class Americans.

[A]

And this has been done throughout the world over and over and over again. And yeah, we will watch it, process it and talk about it and it's like, how did this happen here? But this was like, this is a playbook as old as time. And I always think about the left side having no platform to stand on anything. It's always been, we're just not as bad as. Then we're not Donald Trump. That's not a platform. So.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Can diverge a lot right now. And I'm gonna.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I, I.

[C]

Thanks for tackling it. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

[B]

Well, I just. I hope, like, I hope we can find a way to come together partly to. Yeah. Come together. Have something that we are, like. Like, clearly working toward.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

No, but I mean, I know even before we recorded, we were like, do we want to open this can of worms? I'm. I'm feeling wiggly. I don't know how y' all are.

[C]

Feeling, but I'm just sad. We're almost out of time.

[B]

Let's talk about assessment. Yeah, let's.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Because.

[C]

So one of the things. Thank you.

[B]

That you really do that. I don't know. I don't know of other folks who are doing this, but you do comprehensive autism ADHD assessments, and you fold in kind of psychoanalytic. I don't know how you would say it. Psychoanalytic thinking into that. Like, I imagine you do a really robust, like, history, and I know your feedback to folks is very layered. Can you. Yeah. Just talk a little bit about what it looks like to incorporate some of this really depth, soulful thinking into the assessments that you do?

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I really believe psychoanalytic insights are very important, valuable, and they can help autistic people rediscover their true selves. To me, that's healing. Trauma is a massive reason why that many of us don't quite know our true selves or have parts of us that are a bit repressed or waiting to be uncovered. So I do this thing called Science with soul. I love this line. So for testing, I'm traditionally trained. I got my master's in a neuropsychology lab and have a publication in a neuropsych journal. So I do do a lot of traditional quantitative measures. But then after that piece is completed, what I make sure to do during the testing day is really just clinical interviewing based on, like, the Migdas, the Diva, any other, like, remaining pieces. Basically, I'm. I'm doing an in depth, comprehensive assessment of everything, not just autism, adhd, but everything neurodevelopmental and what I call, like, secondary mental health disorders. Right. Or, like, symptoms. I want to make Sure. I really understand their lived experiences. And I do this in a very collaborative way. I call it therapeutic assessment. Now, that's a term that's becoming a bit more popular. So I'm going to say that that's what I'm doing, which I think it is, which is cool. I almost view it as like a crucible. It's not just, are you autistic or not? I can't help myself. I've tried to just do that because I want to increase access, et cetera, but it's just not me. You know, I think what I do is like, yes, and. Or, you know, like. Like, so what does that mean? How. What does this look like for you also, this trauma you've experienced? Let's talk about it. I, you know, I also, My dissertation was on covert psychological abuse. I've got a massive gaslighting angle that integrates nicely because we've often experienced that quite often. Right. That could be really formative. So I want to really understand their life story and help them see it through a new lens. Yeah. So it's kind of like we journey to the underworld and back together. I'm kind of sharing insights as we go. Once I feel confident about something, I've already done a ton of prep beforehand. I've scored all their quantitative things. I'm ready to ask them all these nuances that I'm feeling out through the meeting, my experience with them. I could check on things, talk with them through things, and then instead of making them wait for some big reveal weeks later, that then, you know, like, I'm sharing it with them. And I think it could be really healing. So it's almost like a. I don't know, life. Life story, reflection, deep hours, long crucible, cool time and that. That's my style of assessment.

[B]

Yeah, I love that. It's. You're not checking a box. Are you autistic or not? It's like, let us understand the phenomenological experience, your phenomenological experience of what has it meant to move, like, move through the world as an autistic person and. And then all whatever other secondary things are coming up. Let us deeply understand this and you can then move forward with this insight. I. I really love that. That sounds so healing. It sounds so therapeutic.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really. It's really an honor. It's cool. I've been told, you know, it's the first time they felt truly seen. It might sound like an asshole saying that, like, oh, but it's like really like power, like this is stuff that we could offer to people. Like, this is important, and it's sad that they haven't gotten that before.

[A]

Absolutely.

[C]

You know, like. And I want to say a few different, like, points that come from psychoanalytic theory that kind of come up that I think are important. Like, you know, I'm sitting with them and I'm hearing them. Sorry, sorry. You know, or like, shaming themselves in front of me for. As they, like, answer a thing too much or go into a special interest thing or whatever. You know, the ableist, internalized thing is. And it's really powerful to get to kind of call them out, especially once we get a little rapport. Right. And in real time, because that's often such a big thing. And so those are corrective emotional experiences is what that's called. Right. And where they get to experience what it's like to be seen and, like, safe to. To be unmasked or to reveal parts of themselves. I often am stimming along on camera with them. There's also a piece we didn't talk about yet, but I'll throw in where often I could feel, if clients are.

[B]

Dissociating me, too, I will start dissociating even through telehealth.

[C]

Right. Yeah. That goes with this energy thing, perhaps, you know, that's the thing where I had to really learn. It took a while because it always felt like it was me. Like, oh, I'm just this anxious, whatever, you know, And. And the reason I'm saying this is because, you know, we're therapists, so we know, like, the term countertransference, blah, blah, blah, and we're, like, reflecting on it. But. But I'd be willing to bet a lot of people listening across the board probably have this experience to some degree sometimes, you know, not everybody. Sure. But, yeah. Like, it's worth asking yourself, how. How was I feeling when I got here? Or, you know, is this mine? Or, you know, I'll never forget we had the internship interviews, Meg. So for. For the doctoral program. Right. We have to. We have to, like, do, like, 20 different interviews, and they're always the same questions. That was a powerful time where I was like, wow, they're the same questions. And I could feel different, how different I felt with each person. And that was, like, striking to me. Like, whoa, maybe it's not just me. Yeah. It took that for me to really realize. And from there, you know, so what I'll do back to the point is like, wow, you know, I'm noticing, and I'll start To, like, point out or, like, say, I've noticed that my throat's getting a little tight. I'm wondering, you know. Right. Are you experiencing anything or what's coming up for you or. Yeah, it could really lead to some powerful stuff. Another thing I want to throw out there is that. So the secondary mental health disorders, I call them that because they're on top of. So when we have these unidentified, unaddressed, unacknowledged differences, neurodevelopmental differences, we gotta survive somehow. There's often chronic, complex trauma in micro and macro ways, and we do things to survive. They're called defenses. Right. That's the psychoanalytic term. Or mental health disorders they could become. But for example, I frame generalized anxiety disorder as a defense against rejection. Sensitive dysphoria.

[B]

That's interesting. I like that.

[C]

Yeah. There's some others, too, but. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Are there other ones you see, like. I'm curious, what other, like, patterns you found.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

So do you see depression as a defense against.

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Defense against anger. Yeah. Often this anger thing is big, at least in clients I've worked with. Yeah, that's. That seems to be a big theme. Like this repression of anger.

[B]

I've heard. I can't remember who it was, but I've heard the idea that depression is anger turned inward.

[C]

Yep, yep. That's an old psychoanalytic idea, I believe.

[B]

I was thinking, so.

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah. It's almost like, you know, the classic idea is, oh, the self. When you see, like, the self criticism, like, oh, I'm a. I messed up. I suck. Like, that would be like, the repression of anger, like, turned inward.

[B]

Which makes sense because it's so unsafe for so many of us to be angry.

[C]

Right, Right. Yeah, yeah. We learn that we're not allowed to be, that we're wrong to be. Right back to the gaslighting of our perception. Often we don't have a right to be. So it must be us who's messed up and whatever. Yeah. So that. That one's a big one. Like, maybe is there a way to. To ask, like, who am I really mad at? Or even just to, like. Like, visualize. Or if you don't have access to visualization, just, like, say, out loud, I don't know, think about or question or, you know, imagine whatever. Put on a song. I call it Sacred Rage sometimes.

[B]

Sacred Rage. I love that.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot to be mad at.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Even institutions like, my goodness, individuals, institutions, systems. There's a lot of oppressive Shit, like, you know, it doesn't mean we have to go fight the man overtly, per se, even though. Yeah, join us. Yes, let's do it. But, you know, like, just even holding them accountable in your mind and realizing it's not all your fault can. Can be really powerful and important. So. So that's a big part of this. But when our true selves are riddled with shame and internalized ableism and all the things, and we've got all these defenses against RSD because it's so painful. And I did this again and I'm a failure, you know, so I got an XYZ to prevent. You know, we're not able to really be ourselves. And so this true self thing that comes from psychoanalysis, and I'd say, like, you know, it, at least from what I've seen. In my experience, a lot of these secondary mental health conditions, the anxiety, social anxiety, which often is anger too, by the way, it's interesting. They tend to become less intense or fade away when our autistic identity, neurodivergent identities are integrated. Mm, yeah. Yeah, I've seen that too. Yeah. Yeah. We realized maybe we're not so bad. Maybe there is gold in the shadow. The things that we've been taught are wrong about us. Maybe they're not. Yeah.

[B]

I love that language of integrate, kind of integrating a neurodivergent identity as a like. Because it is. It's like a developmental task. Um, and the idea in a recent episode we did on giftedness, the idea of disintegration and integration came up as like, that can be a common process. Post discovery. And so this idea of, yeah, these are identities to be integrated and in that work, often that can help reprieve some of those other mental health conditions.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I know the term integration, like in the. The DID community. Right. Systems, sometimes that could be misused. The term integration, I'd say in terms of like, like true self. All that. I'd say true selves. Right, yeah. It's all about gaining more and more access to our parts, to our true selves, no matter what. Like, and feeling safer to be them. Yeah, yeah. Which we all deserve. Absolutely.

[B]

And I feel like that's often the goal of a lot of depth therapy is more access to self. More. Yeah, you're right. I've historically talked about it as an integrated self, but there's times where that. That language isn't appreciated. But yeah, more. More access to self. A more expansive self is also sometimes how I'll talk about it.

[C]

Yeah. Joseph Campbell said, hero's journey, dude, the privilege of a lifetime is being who you are. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I think that's part of the power a lot of people experience post identification, especially in adulthood, is it gives many of us the freedom to finally be who we are. And there's a lot of power and healing in that.

[C]

Absolutely. Yeah. I'm sad it's over. Yeah.

[B]

I really enjoyed this conversation and it has diverged a lot. Like I, when I think back about on the last hour, I'm like, wow, we've traveled a lot of emotional places from like laughter and the crotch painting to like some very somber places to anger, to like we've had an emotionally complex conversation. I've felt that, yeah, it's felt really generative and really rich.

[C]

Part of me said I didn't get to tell you my big common conceptual thing that I like to say to clients or teach them. Maybe I'll do it. Now that I awkwardly said that. Yeah.

[B]

I was like, well, you can't like say that and then leave everyone hanging.

[C]

I know. Yeah. Well, part two coming out soon. Well, go to my website. Yeah. Okay. So I mean, I don't know. Right. But there's many factors. However, I'll say it seems at least with high masking autistic adults, often, not always, but often there's this tendency toward obsessive thinking. Right.

[B]

For sure.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, this is.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Right. So. And I need, I need to listen to the whole OCD series. So admittedly I might say something that's totally in contrast to them. Or maybe this is just a different adding on viewpoint, but from a psychoanalytic perspective, OCD1, there's this drive to like control the uncontrollable. Right. But often there's this idea that feelings have been relegated to the dirt, to the childish, to the. They're unacceptable. There's some, some feeling, often anger, again with the anger, like not allowed or not not correct. Right. And it goes with masking, it goes with rumination, it goes with like we got, we gotta do intellectual cross neurotype translation. Of course we're going to be in our mind, et cetera. But like it goes with this dissociation from feelings thing to the point where sometimes I'll see it in real time with clients or I try to pay attention to it my own life. Like maybe I get mad or something or I see someone get upset. Rightly so they're upset. Maybe they don't even realize it. But the instant thing instead, the conscious thing is, ah, what Did I do well? What if, ah, what if I did it and that they're going, you know, the obsessive thinking is going. Right. Pretty automatic. When maybe they have some feelings. And so the ultimate. You know, I know it's different for everyone. There's different like interoception capacities, experiences, et cetera, things to work through, things that are just how they are. But in general. Right. Like maybe there's some kind of emotional experience or bodily somatic experience embodied, whatever that is for the person. The idea would be maybe there's, there's a way for thinking, feeling, sensing, perceiving and whatever their true self way is. Like that's the goal.

[B]

So. Yeah, I just want to make sure I'm getting you right. Like the obsessive thinking would be a defense against feeling.

[C]

Yeah, that, yeah, yep. Absolutely.

[B]

That makes a lot of sense intuitively as I think about myself, as I think about people I know experience.

[C]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's pretty wild. And you know, it is the controlling, the uncontrollable thing, you know, it makes sense. And similarly the eating disorders, there's different, you know, views, understandings, conceptualization.

[B]

There's a lot of creative ways that we avoid our emotions as neurodivergent people.

[C]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. But you'll hear the control thing. Yeah. But another way to think about it like symbolically that psychoanalytic aspects would add is like maybe fear of taking up space. Right. Having needs. And there's such a symbolic, like that that kind of gets. Comes out in the. And eating as symbolic for emotional. Yeah, the right.

[B]

And feelings take up a lot of space and, and you don't know how containable it'll be. So to like dip into our feelings and it's like, well, I don't know when this starts and when this ends. And so yeah, let me just put it in a tight box and lock it up.

[C]

Yeah, right. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the ideas, with all these things and these ideas, I mean certainly if it doesn't resonate, don't. We're not going to push it on the person. Like, you know, it's about figuring out what does resonate for them. But if we kind of have a pulse on it and the why or some kind of frame and it makes some kind of sense, then at least maybe we can understand ourselves a bit more, have more self compassion and realize like, oh, and actually like where this came from, what it's doing and thank ourselves even on some level, maybe or we're trying to survive because XYZ and.

[B]

Yeah, I love that because you're looking at like, what is the functioning of this thing? When we just focus on symptom reduction, we miss that piece of like, wait, this thing is here. Like, maybe it's. Maybe anxiety is here or obsessiveness is here and it's actually trying to protect me. Let me appreciate what it's trying to protect me. And I think we have to do that work before we can even really meaningfully reduce symptoms. We have to understand what it's protecting us from.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

I really love the depths you bring in that way of thinking about it.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. I think ifs kind of, kind of goes with that vibe a little bit.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Ifs does that well too. Of like, you've got protective parts and what is it? And then. And also the, the. Yeah.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Well, I've really enjoyed this me and dream conversation. I know, like, I want to be like, where can people find you if they want more? But I also know your assessment list is so long that I don't want to send people there. But do you have like, I know you have a website, but do you have ways people can connect with your work if they're interested in working with you or if they're therapists interested in consulting with you?

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. I've shifted my practice a bit and I am focusing on the therapeutic assessments now. I am very motivated to see people in that capacity. And so I would say even if you see that there might be a wait, I would love for you to join my wait list if you are interested. I work with clients who are adults in Massachusetts, California and Washington State. That's where I'm licensed via telehealth. And you could go to my website, divergentpathways.com to learn more about working with me and to join my wait list if you're interested. It's non binding. There's a bunch of resources on my website too.

[B]

You have a great resource section if people just want that alone. Your resource section is amazing.

[C]

Thank you. Yeah, cool. Yeah. So definitely check that out. Thank you, Meg. And I also have an advocacy page, so feel free to follow my Facebook. So that's Facebook.com DivergentPathways would love to see you there. And I do provide consultation to other clinicians worldwide and would be honored to. To work with you.

[A]

So.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Well, fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time today to. To be with us.

[C]

Yeah. Thank you for having me. I'm sad it's over. Yeah. Geez.

[B]

I need to have you back.

[C]

Crucible with you all day. Absolutely. Yeah. And I'd love to come back. Thank you for diving in the depths with me. And, you know, I know this was a heavy, heavy one. A bit after. This is the first one you've recorded after the election, right?

[B]

It's the first one where we've talked about it. I think the last few we've been in dissociative distraction. It's the first one where we've mentioned the election and. Yeah, that was a week ago. Oh, my gosh. It was a week ago today.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's still fresh.

[C]

Still fresh, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's an honor to be here with you both. Thank you. And thanks to the listeners too, and hope to be back and solidarity.

[A]

Appreciate you coming on. I was telling Megan before, just before we closed, like, you took one of my first coaching programs about starting your private practice. And I just remember how anxious and overwhelmed you were about, like, not only will this ever work or be successful, but will I ever encapsulate what I want it to, like, really be? And I think you've done a remarkable job. So congratulations on everything you've done and it's been great just becoming a friend and a colleague and really, really appreciate you.

[C]

Oh, wow. Thank you, Patrick. Wow. Yeah. You were there when I made my name and everything. What a divergent salt. Nope.

[A]

I think we went on a long journey for that one.

[C]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Divergent pathways. Yeah. Thank you. So cool. So special, so sacred. Really cool stuff. Yeah. Okay, I'll see you later.

[A]

There you go. I'm gonna have. We should have our guests do the sign off from now on, just like whatever comes to your mind. Go. New episodes are out on Fridays on all major platforms in YouTube. I think Megan said last episode. If you like the podcast, like the podcast and find it online. See you next week.