Episode 86: Psychodynamic Theory (Part 1): Bridging Science With Soul [featuring Dr. Karissa Burnett]

Overview

In this rich and candid episode of Divergent Conversations, hosts Dr. Megan Anna Neff and Patrick Casale are joined by Dr. Karissa Burnett, a trailblazing depth psychologist, trauma specialist, and late-diagnosed AuDHDer (Autistic-ADHDer). Together, they dive into the value of psychodynamic and depth-oriented therapy for neurodivergent people, challenging stereotypes that claim autistic people “can’t do” deep therapeutic work. The conversation weaves personal anecdotes, professional insights, and lively humor, exploring how depth psychology (psychoanalytic theory, Jungian concepts, Internal Family Systems) can help neurodivergent individuals access self-understanding, integration, and healing. The discussion also touches on authenticity, masking, projection, trauma, and the collective shadow—while modeling the very “in the weeds” conversational curiosity they advocate.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Humor, Authenticity & The Crotch Painting Icebreaker

• [03:00-13:00] The episode kicks off with a humorous exchange about Patrick’s “crotch painting” backdrop, which becomes a playful case study unpacking autistic communication styles, boundaries, and overthinking.
  • Karissa's process: She explains her meticulous internal debate about whether to ask Patrick to shift the painting, describing “three hours” of rumination—mirroring autistic anxieties about being "too much" or "too sensitive."
    • "I'm in between a crotch and a hard place right now." (C, 05:19)
  • Megan reveals she also noticed it but chose not to bring it up for months, second-guessing if she was overreacting and deferring to Patrick’s comfort.
  • The exchange becomes a live analysis of masking, people-pleasing, and situational sensitivity among neurodivergent folk.

2. Challenging Harmful Stereotypes of Autistic People & Therapy

• [14:00-21:00] Dr. Burnett challenges the field’s bias that autistic individuals “aren’t capable” of depth-oriented psychodynamic therapy, debunking myths about literalism and lack of introspection.
  • “They don’t have an imagination, they’re too literal, so they can't do any symbolic stuff—just these awful, harmful, incorrect stereotypes.” (C, 15:40)
• Hosts’ Experiences: Both Megan and Karissa found CBT and skills-based modalities unfulfilling, whereas depth-oriented therapy provided the “why” and held their existential struggles.
  • “I tried a lot of therapies, and it wasn't until I worked with a psychoanalytic therapist that therapy finally worked for me.” (B, 16:35)

3. Alignment of Depth Work & Neurodivergent Strengths

• [21:00-30:00] Discussion of autistic strengths:
  • Pattern recognition, attention to detail, deep processing, natural introspection (often survival-driven from masking).
• Depth Healing: The need for understanding “why”—the narratives and patterns leading to behaviors and suffering—make depth work a natural fit for many autistic people.
  • Karissa and Megan introduce Internal Family Systems (IFS) as an accessible way of doing depth work through concrete "parts" language.

4. Making the Unconscious Conscious & Social Discomfort

• [24:15-29:15] Karissa introduces her realization: autistic people often naturally make the unconscious conscious, which discomforts others and triggers social resistance.
  • "Maybe we often mirror things to people... even just being ourselves can be enough for people to have a reaction. How dare they! That comes from their shadow..." (C, 25:19)
• Metaphors: Megan shares her unwritten children’s book metaphor – being born as someone whose “body and soul signals where society is ailing,” tying this to the “canary in the coal mine” and the shadow work that’s required.
• The group discusses the diversity within the autistic spectrum and the need not to monolithize hypersensitivity or introspection.

5. Masking, Dissociation & Alexithymia

• [31:00-35:00] Deep dive into the origins and functions of alexithymia (difficulty identifying and describing emotions), dissociation, and masking in autism.
  • Karissa views alexithymia often through the trauma lens: “When you have to repress emotion to survive—because stimming is punished, or being different isn’t allowed—it has to go somewhere.” (C, 33:19)
  • Megan notes that post-discovery, many undergo a "thawing" of emotions and sensory experiences due to released dissociation.
• Importance of agency and courage in asking for accommodations and expressing discomfort.

6. The Power & Risk of Authenticity

• [36:00-38:00] Patrick shares that when he shows up “just as he is,” others have told him it gives them permission to be at ease—and reflects on the cost when society cannot tolerate this authenticity.
  • "It's a damn shame when we have to work so damn hard to repress or mask it because of how much of a strength that is…" (A, 37:28)
• Karissa highlights the shadow side: envy and discomfort in others may trigger exclusion and projection as a defense against their own repression.

7. Collective Shadow, Projection, & The Political Moment

• [38:00-49:00] Using the recent U.S. election as a cultural case, Karissa introduces the concept of the "collective shadow"—how unexamined societal biases and fears get projected onto marginalized groups.
  • “Powerful figures... create an illusion of security by scapegoating differences, which actually protects power structures that harm the vulnerable.” (C, 41:23)
• Megan and Patrick discuss interpersonal and collective projection, grief, and the tendency of progressives to critique within their own ranks rather than unify when under threat.
  • “Once I understood [projection], it helped ground me both in my therapeutic work and as a parent...and I love that you're bringing it into the collective space.” (B, 42:15)
• The group highlights how scapegoating and projection maintain oppressive systems and deepen rifts on both the societal and interpersonal level.

8. Therapeutic Assessment: Bridging Science & Soul

• [50:09-56:30] Dr. Burnett explains her unique “Science with Soul” assessment approach, integrating rigorous quantitative neuropsychological testing with deep, collaborative, phenomenological exploration.
  • “I journey with people in assessments...I want to get it right, to have the right shade [for] the truth of their experience. I almost view it as a crucible." (C, 10:05; C, 50:58)
• Rather than a binary “you’re autistic or not,” Karissa guides clients through their life histories, trauma, and secondary mental health layers, aiming for insight, validation, and self-compassion.
  • “It’s the first time they felt truly seen. It’s sad they haven’t gotten that before.” (C, 54:52)

9. Insight from Depth Psychology for Neurodivergent Healing

• Corrective Emotional Experience: Calling out internalized shame and ableist patterns in real time during assessment and feedback.
• Energy and Countertransference: Noticing when she matches a client’s dissociative state or emotional energy (even via telehealth), using this as a cue to check in and reflect the process back.
• Defenses as Secondary Diagnoses: Karissa reframes anxiety and depression as “defenses”—adaptive strategies to survive trauma and unacknowledged rejection sensitivity.
  • “Generalized anxiety disorder is often a defense against rejection sensitive dysphoria… depression as a defense against anger.” (C, 59:10)

10. Integration, True Selves, and the Healing Journey

• [61:11-65:00] Integration of neurodivergent identity is described not as a return to the "false" self, but as an ever-expanding access to more pieces of one's true self.
  • “A lot of these secondary mental health conditions—anxiety, social anxiety, depression—become less intense or fade when our autistic or neurodivergent identities are integrated.” (C, 62:00)
• Integration allows for reclaiming the gold within the “shadow”—the strengths once framed as weaknesses.

11. Obsessive Thinking as a Defense Against Feeling

• [66:12-71:42] In a closing insight, Dr. Burnett shares her psychoanalytic take on obsessive thinking:
  • “With high masking autistic adults...there’s a tendency toward obsessive thinking. From a psychoanalytic perspective, OCD has at its root a drive to control the uncontrollable. Feelings—especially anger—get relegated to the dirt, and we intellectualize, ruminate, mask. Obsessive thought can be a defense against feeling.” (C, 68:45)
  • “There are a lot of creative ways that we avoid our emotions as neurodivergent people." (B, 69:41)

Selected Memorable Quotes

• On Harmful Stereotypes:
  "They're too literal, so they can't do any kind of symbolic stuff—just these awful, harmful, incorrect stereotypes."
  — Karissa, 15:40

• On Making the Unconscious Conscious:
  "We often make the unconscious conscious, whether we realize it or not...it gives a little bit of insight into why perhaps society has such a problem with us."
  — Karissa, 25:19

• On Projection and Parenting:
  "With parenting, a PDA-er...there was a lot of projection that was happening. And once I understood that, it helped ground me both in my therapeutic work and as a parent."
  — Megan, 42:15

• On Repression and Authenticity:
  "It's a damn shame when we have to work so damn hard to repress or mask it, because of how much of a strength [authenticity] is..."
  — Patrick, 37:28

• On Corrective Emotional Experience:
  "It's really powerful to call clients out—in real time—on internalized ableism, and to see them feel safe being unmasked for the first time."
  — Karissa, 55:16

• On Integrating Identity:
  "A lot of these secondary mental health conditions—anxiety, social anxiety, depression—become less intense or fade when our autistic identities are integrated."
  — Karissa, 62:00

Notable Timestamps

• [05:19] — Karissa's internal debate about the "crotch painting"
• [15:40] — On stereotypes about autistic people's capacity for depth work
• [25:19] — On making the unconscious conscious (collective discomfort with ND authenticity)
• [29:19-35:00] — Masking, alexithymia, and dissociation; trauma lens
• [37:28] — Patrick on the value and fallout from authenticity
• [41:23] — Collective shadow and the political moment
• [50:09-56:30] — Therapeutic assessment: "Science with soul"
• [59:10] — Anxiety/depression as defensive adaptations
• [62:00] — Identity integration as healing agent
• [68:45] — Obsessive thinking as a defense against feeling

Resources & Where to Find Dr. Karissa Burnett

• Website & Waitlist: divergentpathways.com
  • Offers therapeutic psychological assessments (adults in MA, CA, WA via telehealth)
  • Extensive resource and advocacy section
• Consultation: Provides consultation to clinicians worldwide
• Facebook: facebook.com/divergentpathways

"It's an honor to journey with people through these assessments. I want to get it right, to have the right shade for the truth of their experience."
— Dr. Karissa Burnett

Episode Flow & Tone

The episode is dynamic, emotionally nuanced, and filled with gentle humor and deep validation. The hosts and guest model vulnerability, circuitous curiosity, playful analysis, and affirming respect for each other’s strengths and differences—a living example of the “bridging science and soul” that is their theme.

End of summary. For full show notes and resources, visit divergentpod.com or follow on Instagram @divergentconversations.