← Do This, NOT That: Marketing Tips with Jay Schwedelson
Do This, NOT That: Marketing Tips with Jay Schwedelson
Marketing Automation Platform Fails 🎯 SPECIAL GUEST!! Jaina Mistry from KNAK
00:22:31
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to do this, not that, the podcast from marketers. We share quick tips, things you can do right now, and then we add a little bit of chaos at the end of every episode. We also keep it short like this intro. Let's check it out. We are back for do this, not that. And we have an incredible guest, incredible human, a great friend of the show. So who is here and why she's so awesome. So we have Jaina Mystery. Now, you probably know her because she is the director of branding content at Knack. And if you know anything about me, this is not a commercial for nac. She didn't tell me to say this. I love Knack. It is the email design and creation platform and landing page platform that my company has used forever. But before Janet did that, she was a big deal for like a gab billion years over at Litmus. Okay, Litmus. She was the director and branding content over there. And we're going to be talking about marketing automation, marketing platforms, Hot takes all the things. But the other thing I love about Jane and we're going to dig into it, is just like the rest of us. We weren't there at 5 years old and saying, I can't wait to be a content and brand marketer. Nobody says that. And she has a career path that I think is inspiring to people that anybody can get here if you really work hard and you lean in. So, Jana, welcome to the show.
- [01:19]
B
Thanks for having me here, J. I'm super excited to get stuck into all these things and you can grill me about all of those things that you just mentioned. Happy to.
- [01:27]
A
I love it. All right, so let's jump into your career for a second here because I'm not usually one to go down the career path thing, but right now everyone's like, AI is taking my job. And specifically it's like, and if you do computer science, you are totally screwed because of Claude and all this stuff. And younger Jane is out there, computer science, no offense, nerdy person, right? And then you're like, this sucks. I want to pivot. And now you're this big director level person at these big companies. How did that all happen? And is there a life after a career going sideways?
- [02:00]
B
Oh, God, how did that all happen? So this is, again, very nerdy thing about me. Before I went into computer science at the age of like 14, 15 years old, I was like, I finished my exams. I got my whole summer ahead of me. What do I do with myself? And I was like, I'm going to learn computers. Literally, like, the thought in my brain. So I designed and built fan sites for Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for Angel, for all these TV shows, Stargate. I had a Matrix one out there at some point as well. But I was, I went in hard into learning how to design and build websites. Microsoft front page is what I use. Really old versions of Adobe Photoshop and. But I never thought of it as a career. So I went into computer science, I went into computer engineering and software engineering. Hated it. Because I hated it. I was like, maybe there is a career in website design and development. So I gave it a shot. Someone gave me a shot and gave me a job as a web developer at a company, despite me not having any commercial experience. But I had that experience of doing stuff myself and trying to teach myself. So someone saw that in me. And as part of that job, back then, if you're a web developer and web designer, you also did email at the same time. So I, that was where I like learned how to design and build emails. And back then email sort of looked like direct mailers, but that was a whole other thing. And it was great. I loved it. And I did web development, design, email for years. I realized that there was a huge market in it as a freelancer, so I did that. And it just sort of grew and grew and grew. And as I was growing my career, someone over at Litmus was like, yeah, there's a role for you here. And I think that really accelerated my love of email and that's what accelerated my career. I grew from being an email marketing specialist to then running the brand and content over at Litmus. And that was a huge experience for me. Just kind of building out a team, figuring out what email does, evolving email, and then learning that there are other areas that can support email too at the same time where I am now. So I think AI has a place right now in marketing careers. No one should be afraid of it. I think being afraid of it is probably the worst thing you can do because that fear is going to drive you away from it. And frankly, it's here to stay. You have to learn it. You have to understand how it can be powerful and useful to you in your day to day, in your personal life, whatever you want to do. But it's not going anywhere. And there are so many ways. I think people are stuck on the idea of AI as generation. Oh, it writes copy, it creates images, it creates videos, it does the creative stuff. I don't think about AI that way. I think about AI as a way. I was like, how can I think Better? How can I be smarter? How can I do things better with AI by my side? How can it help me get context and relevance? That used to take me hours or days to get versus getting it more immediately. So I think there's, I think young Jaina would be like, what are you like that's amazing what you're doing right now. Like, I could never have imagined I would be here right now.
- [05:16]
A
See, I love that. And I think it's so important for people to hear that because at every point you kind of leaned in, you're open minded, you see where it took you and that's the secret sauce. And I agree with you about AI. I actually now have a block on my calendar for one hour a week where all I do is try to explore new AI tools and new AI things. Because I do think in the world of marketing everybody's career is going to be AI adjacent. And if you just think you're going to sit there and play on ChatGPT and that's going to be how you're going to get ahead, you are screwed. So let's talk about other things that are screwed, which is our marketing automation platforms and how people use them and automations and all the things. So why is it in general that you think whenever you ask somebody you know, what do you think about your marketing automation platform? I've never in the history of my career heard somebody say, I love it, it is awesome, it does everything I need it to do. Why does everybody think their platform is some version of either horrible or not terrible?
- [06:14]
B
I think that's because every, I think that's true for probably much every platform that every single marketing is, but specifically for marketing automation platforms is like every person on a marketing team wants that platform to do something differently. You've got your demand gen marketer over there and they're just trying to like help score leads and bring leads in and build pipeline and build a business. You've got an email marketer in another corner who just wants to create emails and design emails and build emails. You've got your marketing ops person who's just trying to stitch everything together. And often that one tool will not do all of those things exceptionally well. It will do the sending great, it'll do the automation great. Everything else sort of falls by the wayside. So I think it's just it and it's probably, I feel like some marketing automation platforms over promise what they can do too. I think there's like, oh, we will, we will do it all for you. This is the all in one platform you're never going to use, you're not going to need anything else to send emails or do any sort of marketing automation. So there's like this, this slight, I think tendency for some marketing automations to oversell and then when you get it in your hand like, well this isn't what I asked for. This is one, this is not what I needed.
- [07:28]
A
So let's talk about that for a second because first of all, one of the things I always recommend to people with any marketing platform of any kind, I always tell them get the lowest version of it, the cheapest version because those salespeople will no problem upgrading you. But everybody, what happens when you are thinking about switching to another marketing automation platform because the grass is always greener when it comes to your martech stack. I don't know why that is, but that is how we all feel. But do you think like, do you see, because you see a lot of companies and interacting with their market platforms, do people get like the RFP process wrong? Are we doing something that's not getting us with the right platform out of the gate?
- [08:05]
B
Yes, I think it's, it's that new feature that like Magpie effect that you talked about. It's like, oh, this has got all these shiny new features. The problem with that is yes, they have a shiny new features, but are you actually going to use those new features when you're running your business, your program and not just at that point in time with that marketing automation platform, but in two, three, four, five years from now? So I think that's one of the biggest issues that I see with the RFPs going wrong and as well as the feature focused side of things, it's the people involved. Are you talking to the right members of your team? Are they the ones who are going to be using it or are they just the ones who are giving you the budget for it? Like again, like balance that out to who's realistically going to be in the platform and using it and is it going to serve their purposes and their needs?
- [08:51]
A
You know, you just said something I think is so important. No matter whether it's a marketing automation platform or anything other big platform you're onboarding, what seems to happen, you tell me if this is true, is okay, we got budget for this thing we're going to do, get whatever social listening platform, marketing, amazing platform, who cares what platform? Oh you, you got a big title, you and procurement over there, you're going to go pick it out and they're not including the literal, the people that are the hands on users that are, you know, building the emails, the landing pages, doing the scoring stuff, they're not in the process. Is that, do you see that a lot or do you see everybody normally included?
- [09:27]
B
I see that a lot, but I also see another side of it which is people tend to be very tool focused versus trying to figure out, okay, what is the problem we're trying to solve, what is the goal that we're trying to hit and what is the right tool that is going to help us do that. And I think I see that happen a lot because we can. Marketers freaking love adding to their tech stack. I feel like every single marketing team out there has 10 things that do very, very similar things because everyone's focused on those features versus focusing on what do we need.
- [10:03]
A
Yeah, that's the. What do we need is, I mean literally, that's what should be the question. And I now I'm curious about something else because. So you work at Knack. Okay. Knack is part of my martech stack. Okay. And what we tell, what I tell my people is every quarter, no more than every six months, Everything that we're paying for in our martech stack, I want you to go and get as if you're signing up with that company again to become a vendor. I want them to pitch you on all the features that we have access to for what we're already paying. Because what I always see is that we have access to all this stuff that we didn't know that it came out. Even though you on the other end of this thing, you're pumping out all these emails and videos saying, look at all this new crap we got, but we're missing it. Do you think a big fail for marketers in general is not even being aware what they have access to?
- [11:00]
B
Yes, I think that's, that's a fail. But I, I don't know whether I completely blame marketers for that. Mostly because marketers are flying by the seat of their pants these days. Like everything, the, everything is about churning out more content, doing more and really just like that's focus is like they've got these big pipeline goals and big revenue goals to hit. And so their focus is just like, just keep doing what you're doing, just keep pushing more content out there, more videos, more webinars, but without taking a pause of thinking about, okay, but do we need to do all of these things? And then you get stuck in that rut of just doing the things that you always do with the same Tools, the same features. You've always done it. But there's a better way. Like how AI is now in the mix of things. Like AI is helping me get better contextual understanding of how our performance is running. For example, the same thing with all the features and all of these new tools, are we making sure that we're doing that? But I think just marketers are generally just very overwhelmed with everything that they have to do that. The thought of thinking about a new feature, how that changes your workflow and what you have to do to adapt to that can sometimes be like a
- [12:13]
A
little bit too much, you know, Unfortunately, I agree with you. I think we're in the check the box era, meaning that marketers are just doing everything you can to check all the boxes to get the stuff out there. Especially with this like zero click environment where website traffic is harder to generate than ever. So everyone feels they need to be on every platform doing everything, getting out every email. And I think it's creating this like, you know, checking the box as opposed to actually doing great stuff. So one other thing in the, in the. Well, two other things. First of all, let's talk about scoring for a second. A bane of my existence is how people score their marketing automation platform. It's like I scratch my forehead, oh my God, let's give him an extra point. He's an A lead. Like what? You are the director of brand and content. Been doing this for a long time. Like, what are people screwing up with scoring in their automation platforms?
- [13:00]
B
Scoring on opens and clicks, I think is one of the worst things that you can possibly do because you don't necessarily know that a, it's a person that's opening and clicking. It could necessarily be a bot that's assigned to that. So that's completely moot point point that that's happening. And then people may not even open or click on your email, but they see it in the inbox and that's a good intent signal. That's like, oh, they've seen it in the box. They'll probably go and search for it somewhere else or they'll find you on LinkedIn or Instagram or some other channel. So I think that's the biggest thing that people get wrong is just like thinking about email as a way of like scoring someone that's not high intent. I don't believe for, for getting someone further down the funnel.
- [13:38]
A
I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, and it took us, it was a hard way for us to learn that because you're like, oh, they clicked let's get somebody to. And it would be like everybody's frustrated, the people we're calling are frustrated, the salesperson's frustrated, nobody's happy. That click does not mean anything. Like actually nothing. I'll tell you what does mean a lot though, when you are thinking about your marketing platform or any of your other platforms and that is the app exchange that they have or the integrations that they have with other stuff. Because here's the deal, there is no marketing automation platform or anything in your martech stack that will do it all. So one of the things everybody should be leaning into if you're not already is what integrations do they have because that is can be how you win. So for example, and this is not a commercial for nac, but one of the things I love is that knack where you work, right, which is the, the platform for building emails and landing pages without having to know any code. You all. Is it intentional that you try to integrate with as many platforms as you can? Is that like part of your business model?
- [14:44]
B
Yes, we want to be able to integrate with as much as possible because we know that the marketing tech stack is huge. And that's because there are very specific things that marketing marketers need out of these specific tools. Whether it's a project management tool, whether it's a marketing automation platform, they do their things really, really well and everything needs to speak to each other. So marketers can not have to split between 10 different tabs to be able to understand like the hell is going on.
- [15:10]
A
And so like, is it fair to say that if you think you're going to get a marketing automation platform that you're not going to need to bring in, you know, these third party tools and you're just going to be able to live in that one platform that you are on a fool's errand that that is not the way that sophisticated marketing can really happen.
- [15:31]
B
Completely, completely agree. I think the what you're going to end up having is limited seats in your marketing automation platform because they charge by seats and those seats are always going to be expensive. Those seats often have different user profiles and different roles. So they'll have access to specific areas and you're going to have someone who needs to have access to a specific area they don't have access to that collaboration is going to fall apart and you're going to end up sending emails out there and putting landing pages out there that do not look great because you haven't got the right people. People being able to see Those in that platform where you're building and where you're producing your marketing. So I think that's the biggest fallacy I see. We're thinking like your marketing automation platform can do it all. It's just not realistic.
- [16:17]
A
All right, give me a commercial here for a second. Now I want the commercial. Tell me, knack, okay. What is it that you can actually help a company do?
- [16:29]
B
It's a great question. So you're over here somewhere. You're creating all these emails, all these landing pages, and you need to be able to kind of talk to multiple different people as you're designing, you're building, you're collaborating, you're qa. There are a ton of people involved in what it takes to create an email, for example, like, think about it, think about all the steps that you have to take. But the challenge is if we want to do that inside of your marketing automation platform, like I said, you've got so many different people who need to be involved. The collaboration is not there. The QA. Like, how many marketing automation platforms really do QA? As well as NAT, we've got something like, I don't know, 90, 80 plus email clients there all over from Gmail to iPhones to your Googles to all those different email inbox service providers. So that's one area too. And honestly, I've not seen a single marketing automation platform do building without needing to code. Well, yeah, I, when I joined nat, I started using that pretty much, I think the second or third day because I was just so eager to get into the platform and learn it. That's how I, that's how I understand how to create content for a business. So I was getting there and I was building an email straight away. I had looked at a couple of help docs here and there and maybe a video, but. But I was, I was putting it in and I was building this email and I was like, why hasn't it always been this easy? And I started out as an email developer and I was hardcore into. You have to hand code every single one of your emails. You need to be able to know like HTML and CSS like the back of your hand. And I built an email way quicker than I thought I was going to enact. And then I was able to pull people in. Hey, can you have a look at this? It was easy because everyone already lives in nac. Everyone works within nac. It's the one system that pulls everything together in one go. And then you just push it over to your marketing automation platform with an Integration, and then that handles all of the sending and the automation, but the email bill, and then you have that central repository too. I think that's the other thing that NAC does really well of your emails and landing pages. And when you do move marketing automation platforms, you. You don't have to worry about exporting your templates, your modules, your landing pages. They're still living there in that one same place. So it kind of cures a lot of things that were massive pain points for me when we used to build inside of our marketing automation platform.
- [19:00]
A
Well, I love that. And I double down or double click or whatever you say these days. And everything you just said before we run out of time here, I know a little bit about how rando you are when I say that in the most loving possible way.
- [19:15]
B
You.
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A
You were just talking earlier about building fan websites for Buffy the Vampire Slayer, whatever. And I feel like in the back of my head, you're really into, like, horror movies or weird gothic stuff. Like, I'm not judging you, but I'm absolutely judging you right now. Hit us with Jana's, like, what am I into right now? That's gonna be like, I don't even know what you're talking about.
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B
Oh, this is a good one. This is gonna be a tough one, actually, for me. So right now, what am I really into?
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A
Dark Mirror. I don't even know what that means.
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B
I'm trying to think. I haven't seen. I haven't seen, like, a really good
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A
horror film in a Saw Part 12.
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B
Oh, do you know what? I have seen all the Saw films. I love all the Saw films. They're gory and disgusting. I don't know. I've got a weird little soft spot for them. I'm looking forward to watching the seventh Scream movie that's come out as well. Like, I've watched all of those. Like, those introduced me to horror. I want to say that one of my favorite horror films, okay? So the horror film that affected me the most was Hereditary. And I think anyone who is listening to this will know the scene that caused me the most shock and horror out of that film. But I did recently. And. But on the other side of things, I kind of. I'm weird because my genres are all over the place. I watched a movie this weekend called Train Dreams with Joel Edgerton. Okay. And it was a melancholic kind of, like, film about a guy who's just trying to get through life. And I love that just as much as every single one of the weird little horror films. That I watch out there. So I'm all over the place.
- [20:54]
A
Let me just tell you something. We got to get this. We got to get this sound bite. Play it everywhere. You literally said I have a soft spot for the movie Saw. Who the hell says that?
- [21:03]
B
That's the weirdest.
- [21:05]
A
Legitimately, one of the weirdest things I've ever heard a human being say. I get scared by the trailers of movies. So you're, like, tough.
- [21:12]
B
Good for you.
- [21:13]
A
Yeah.
- [21:14]
B
Yeah.
- [21:15]
A
All right. Well, you're amazing, and knack is amazing. Everybody's got to go to Knack. Kn a K.com demo. Kn a K.com demo. We're going to put in the show notes. I am telling you, you will save time, you will save money, you will solve all world problems just by going there. I've been using it for years. I love it all. Jenna, you are the best. We got to have you back on. Appreciate your weird movie takes. Bye, all. Wait. The party is not over. Go to jschwettleson.com because I want to do stuff with you. I want to partner with you. When you click on the button, partner with Jay, you let me know what you got going on. Work with my agency. Work with me directly. Get access to all of my free resources@jschweddelson.com and I got a book coming out this April. It's called Stupider People have done It. And all of the net proceeds are going to the V Foundation for Cancer Research. Go on Amazon. Buy Stupider People have Done It. That way, you can help kick cancer's butt with me. And if this podcast wasn't the worst podcast you've ever listened to, it might have been. Leave it a review. Follow the show. You are awesome. Go out there and crush it.