🥫SPAMAGEDDON🥫How To Get Out of Spam and Junk Folder! [Limited Series]

Summary

Podcast Summary: SPAMAGEDDON – How To Get Out of Spam and Junk Folder!

Episode Details:

• Title: 🥫SPAMAGEDDON🥫How To Get Out of Spam and Junk Folder! [Limited Series]
• Release Date: May 22, 2025
• Hosts:
  • Jay Schwedelson – Guru Media Hub, Do This, Not That Podcast
  • Guy Hanson – VP of Customer Engagement at Validity, Email After Hours Podcast
  • Danielle Gallant – Validity, Email After Hours Podcast

---

1. Introduction to SPAMAGEDDON Series

In the premiere episode of the SPAMAGEDDON series, a collaborative effort between the Email After Hours and Do This, Not That podcasts, hosts Jay Schwedelson, Guy Hanson, and Danielle Gallant set the stage for a special five-part series aimed at helping marketers navigate the treacherous waters of email deliverability.

• Jay Schwedelson (00:05): Introduces the series as a "special five part crossover" designed to be "short, fun, and awesome."
• Guy Hanson (00:17): Describes the series as a battle against the "ultimate inbox apocalypse," questioning whether an email program is "doomed or can you survive the invasion of spam filters, block lists, and dwindling engagement?"
• Danielle Gallant (00:28): Promises to "bust myths, drop truth bombs, and give you the tips you need to survive the deliverability doomsday."

2. 10 Second Game: Lighthearted Start

To kick off the episode with some levity, the hosts engage in their signature "10 Second Game," where they answer quirky, unrelated questions under time pressure.

• Jay Schwedelson (00:57): Expresses nervousness about the game but encourages participation.

• Danielle Gallant (01:36): Playfully refuses to answer but eventually names her least favorite movies: "The Happening," "Birdemic," and "The Room" (01:45).

  "I know these because I am a huge fan of bad movies. I love them. I watch them." – Danielle Gallant (01:49)

• Guy Hanson (02:31): Shares his favorite fry dipping sauces: "mayo, Tabasco sauce, and hot sauce."

  "Of course, ranch dressing is a favorite." – Guy Hanson (02:41)

This segment not only provides a moment of humor but also helps establish rapport among the hosts.

3. Main Topic: Strategies to Improve Email Deliverability

Transitioning from light-hearted banter, the discussion delves into the core topic: improving email deliverability to overcome spam and junk folder challenges.

a. Importance of Data Quality

• Danielle Gallant (03:20): Emphasizes that improving deliverability isn’t "easy" but achievable through "quick wins." The focus should be on data quality at both the beginning and end of the subscriber journey.

  "At the beginning, don't buy lists, don't rent lists, get consent and permission. … Do double opt-in. It's going to work." – Danielle Gallant (03:20)

• Key Recommendations:

  • Avoid Purchasing/Renting Lists: Ensuring that all contacts have given explicit permission to receive emails.
  • Implement Double Opt-In: A two-step process that verifies a subscriber’s intent, enhancing engagement and reducing the likelihood of spam complaints.
  • Clean Your Lists Regularly: Remove subscribers who haven’t engaged within a specified timeframe to maintain high data quality.

b. Double Opt-In and Subscriber Engagement

• Danielle Gallant (04:07): Stresses the effectiveness of double opt-in and the necessity of removing inactive subscribers to prevent deliverability issues.

  "If your data quality stinks, your deliverability is going to stink." – Danielle Gallant (04:07)

c. Timing for Removing Inactive Subscribers

• Jay Schwedelson (04:26): Queries about the optimal timeframe to remove unengaged subscribers.

• Danielle Gallant (04:57): Suggests a rule of thumb: if a subscriber hasn't engaged (opened, clicked, or bought) within a year, their address becomes risky. However, this can vary based on industry and business-specific factors.

  "There's a rule of thumb which is if the subscriber hasn't engaged with your program within a year, that address becomes a little risky." – Danielle Gallant (04:57)

4. Debunking a Deliverability Myth

Jay Schwedelson (05:06) introduces a common myth about improving deliverability: sending emails exclusively to highly engaged subscribers for a period to boost sender reputation.

a. The Myth Explained

The idea is that by targeting only users who actively open, click, or purchase, marketers can "crush" their sender reputation and regain inbox placement temporarily.

"Is that a recipe to get back into the inbox?" – Jay Schwedelson (05:06)

b. Counterpoints and Alternative Strategies

Guy Hanson (05:53) challenges this notion, explaining that engagement metrics have become more nuanced:

• Impact of Modern Email Privacy Features:

  • Features like Apple's Mail Privacy Protection (MPP) obscure open rates and engagement metrics, making traditional KPIs less reliable.

    "At Apple, open tells you that the address exists and hasn't been placed in the junk folder." – Guy Hanson (06:12)

• Hidden Metrics:

  • Mailbox providers monitor behaviors that senders can't see, such as users fetching emails from the junk folder back into their inboxes.

    "Those are two good deliverability signals." – Guy Hanson (07:10)

• Leveraging Feedback:

  • Encourage direct feedback from subscribers through surveys, rating systems, and preference centers to gain insights and improve email quality.

    "Ask them what you're doing well and they can help you improve your game." – Guy Hanson (07:35)

• Enhancing Engagement Beyond Sends:

  • Implement strategies that encourage positive user behaviors, such as forwarding emails, which can signal value to mailbox providers.

    "Make someone forward an email... Asda supermarket in the UK had exceptional forward rates for their Valentine's Day campaign." – Guy Hanson (07:45)

5. Managing Cold Email Campaigns

A significant portion of the discussion addresses cold email strategies, particularly for business-to-business (B2B) marketers.

a. Separating Mail Streams

Jay Schwedelson (08:28) raises concerns about the impact of cold email programs on overall sender reputation, suggesting that mixing cold and promotional emails can harm deliverability.

• Danielle Gallant (09:10): Agrees, advocating for separate mail streams using subdomains or distinct IP addresses to protect core promotional efforts from the risks associated with cold emailing.

  "One way to protect your other mail streams is to have like a subdomain or separate IP or something like that." – Danielle Gallant (09:10)

• Practical Implementation:

  • Use Subdomains: Create distinct subdomains for cold emails (e.g., cold.yourdomain.com) separate from main marketing emails.
  • Separate IPs: Allocate different IP addresses for various email streams to prevent domain-wide reputation damage.

b. Best Practices and Realities

Jay Schwedelson (10:01) emphasizes the importance of being realistic about cold emailing practices. While cold emails are often viewed negatively, they remain a staple for many businesses. Proper infrastructure separation can mitigate potential downsides.

"You need to get real with yourself and separate yourself from yourself because you could be hurting the mothership." – Jay Schwedelson (10:01)

6. Conclusion and Next Steps

The episode wraps up with the hosts encouraging listeners to engage with both the Email After Hours and Do This, Not That podcasts for continued insights into email marketing and deliverability.

• Jay Schwedelson (10:15): Highlights the ongoing battle for optimal inbox placement and teases future episodes packed with valuable content.

"The battle for the inbox never ends. If you love this crossover chaos, you got to tune in the next time." – Jay Schwedelson (10:15)

---

Key Takeaways

1. Data Quality is Paramount: Maintain high-quality, permission-based email lists and regularly cleanse inactive subscribers to enhance deliverability.
2. Double Opt-In Enhances Engagement: Implementing a double opt-in process can significantly improve subscriber engagement and reduce spam complaints.
3. Understand and Leverage Modern Metrics: Traditional engagement metrics are evolving. Incorporate hidden metrics and user feedback to gauge email performance accurately.
4. Separate Cold Email Campaigns: Use distinct subdomains or IP addresses for cold emailing to protect the reputation of your main email streams.
5. Encourage Positive User Behaviors: Strategies like encouraging email forwards can send strong positive signals to mailbox providers, improving deliverability.

Notable Quotes

• "If your data quality stinks, your deliverability is going to stink." – Danielle Gallant (04:07)
• "Double opt-in. It's going to work." – Danielle Gallant (03:20)
• "You need to get real with yourself and separate yourself from yourself because you could be hurting the mothership." – Jay Schwedelson (10:01)

---

Conclusion:
This episode of SPAMAGEDDON offers actionable insights into improving email deliverability, emphasizing the importance of data quality, modern engagement metrics, and strategic separation of email streams. By adopting these strategies, marketers can enhance their email performance and ensure their messages reach the intended inboxes.

Transcript

[Danielle Gallant]

Foreign.

[Jay Schwedelson]

Welcome to Spamageddon. This is a special five part crossover series between the Email after hours podcast and the do this, not that podcast. We're going to keep these short. They're going to be fun. They're going to be awesome.

[Guy Hanson]

We're teaming up to help marketers battle the ultimate inbox apocalypse. Is your email program doomed, or can you survive the invasion of spam filters, block lists, and dwindling engagement?

[Danielle Gallant]

In this special series, we're going to bust myths, drop truth bombs, and give you the tips you need to survive the deliverability doomsday.

[Jay Schwedelson]

All right, so your host. You got me, Jay Schwedelson from the Guru Media Hub and the do this, not that podcast.

[Guy Hanson]

And I'm Guy Hanson. I'm VP of customer engagement at Validity and co host of our email after hours podcast.

[Danielle Gallant]

And I'm Danielle Gallant, also of Validity and Guy's better half. On the Email after hours podcast.

[Jay Schwedelson]

Spamageddon is back. And today we're gonna be talking about quick wins to get back in the inbox. Cause you're stuck in the junk folder or SP folder and we're going to crush that. But before we do, we are playing our 10 second game. @ the start of every Spamageddon, we play a 10 second game where I ask Danielle a question, I ask Guy a question. They have nothing to do with anything and they're both ridiculous. Not Danielle and Guy, the questions. Of course. So we're gonna play the 10 second game. Danielle, you're going first this time. Are you ready? Yes. Question mark.

[Danielle Gallant]

Let's do it.

[Jay Schwedelson]

I get so nervous about these questions. I love it.

[Danielle Gallant]

Okay, go.

[Jay Schwedelson]

Okay, here we go. Okay, Danielle, you have 10 questions. Not the questions.

[Danielle Gallant]

No, you can't do this.

[Jay Schwedelson]

All right, you have 10 seconds. Name the worst three movies of all time.

[Danielle Gallant]

The Happening Birdemic. The Room.

[Jay Schwedelson]

Wow. Look how ready you were.

[Danielle Gallant]

I know these because I am a huge fan of bad movies. I love them. I watch them.

[Guy Hanson]

Have you ever watched Reanimator?

[Danielle Gallant]

They're so good. Guys. They're so good.

[Jay Schwedelson]

That movie, the room looks scary. I don't like scary movies. Was that scary Room? Yeah.

[Danielle Gallant]

No. Am I? Am I? I don't know. No.

[Jay Schwedelson]

They're like stuck in a room. Are they stuck in a room?

[Danielle Gallant]

No, that's room. That is.

[Jay Schwedelson]

I have no idea what's going on. All right. I don't want to see either one of those movies. All right, Guy, are you ready for your question?

[Guy Hanson]

Let's do it.

[Jay Schwedelson]

This is gonna be amazing. Here we go. Guy. You have 10 seconds. Name three things people dip fries in besides ketchup.

[Guy Hanson]

Oh, mayo, Tabasco sauce and hot sauce. You know, like spicy sauce.

[Jay Schwedelson]

I thought you were going to say ranch guy apparently loves ranch dressing. We established that on a previous episode. Would you dip a fry into ranch dressing? Everybody wants to know.

[Guy Hanson]

Of course.

[Jay Schwedelson]

Okay. I was like looking at like very like James Bond type style. Like, you're a fool. Of course I would. I love it. All right, let's jump into getting back into the inbox. A lot of everybody out there is living sometimes in the junk folder in the spam folder. It's not our happy place. We want to get back into the inbox. And here's the thing. Is it easy to do, Danielle? How do we do it? Is it just like you flip a switch and get back in or do we got to do some specific stuff?

[Danielle Gallant]

Yeah, it's not easy. That's why I'm employed. Grateful that it's not super easy. It takes work for sure, but there are quick wins if you are consistently going to the junk folder or the spam folder. You have to focus first on data quality at the beginning and end of your subscriber journey. So at the beginning, don't buy lists, don't rent lists, get consent and permission. Nobody wants to hear this, but do double opt in. It's going to work. And then at the end, on the other side, we all love marketers, love big lists, but you got to remove those subscribers that are not engaging with your mail. There's just no, no two ways about it. If your data quality stinks, your deliverability is going to stink.

[Jay Schwedelson]

By the way, we're going to do another episode. I want to do a debate on double opt in because I think that would be really valuable for everybody to hear. But I do have a question for you about take about removing people that haven't engaged or whatever. Do you have a certain amount time, like Danielle Secret Sauce amount of time to remove people that haven't open, clicked or done whatever?

[Danielle Gallant]

There's a rule of thumb. There's a rule of thumb which is if the subscriber hasn't engaged with your program, and by that I mean clicked, bought, anything, whatever, within a year, that address becomes a little risky. But it depends on the business. Like I work with tenders that are in the auto industry, that's that life cycle is going to look a lot different. So there's a rule of thumb where addresses can become a little. A little risky, but it depends on your business. Just keep them clean at the beginning and you'll avoid a problem down the line.

[Guy Hanson]

I thought you were going to carry on riffing on the food theme, Jay. I thought it was like, does Danielle have a secret sauce? That guy can tip his deliverability for Eisenhower.

[Jay Schwedelson]

See that? I'm not quick enough, you know, I'm not fast enough for all that. But I do think it's a really valid point that, you know, you can't just take, oh, Everybody says it's 12 months, it's 18 months, it's six months. You know, you have to factor into the industry you're in, your buying cycle, all that. So I think it's really valid. So, Guy, I have a, I have a myth I need you to bust for me, which I, I'm actually curious because I don't know the answer. So a lot of people that have deliverability issues, they're going to the junk or spam folder. One of the most common things people say to do is listen. The way to get back in the inbox is grab only the people in your database who are engaging, open clicking, buying, doing your engaged people and only send to them for a little while and then your reputation will get better and you're going to go back to the inbox and then you can start being a doofus again and, and sending out all the bad stuff. Is that a recipe to get back into the inbox?

[Guy Hanson]

Not really. I think, you know, you think about KPIs like open rates, like clicks, they've definitely become more nuanced. You know, they, they get skewed for factors like Apple's mpp. You know, bots are skewing click rates and, and you see the impact. I mean, it's funny, you look at Apple's own deliverability guidance and they say, make sure you're sending to subscribe, you know, engage subscribers. Except they've taken away a primary engagement signal. And there's a reason why, you know, Apple is one of the lowest performing mailbox providers when it comes to deliverability. But I think, you know, a couple of quick comments. I think firstly, opens do still have some value. You know, even at Apple, Open tells you that the address exists. It tells you that it hasn't been. The email you sent hasn't been placed in the junk folder. So those are two good deliverability signals that you can use to improve your performance. I think, you know, senders should probably pay more attention to feedback as well. And when I'm talking about feedback, I'm literally talking about feedback from your customers. You know, take the Opportunity to ask them what you're doing well and they can help you improve your game. You know, it can be as simple as, you know, rate your email, thumbs up, thumbs down. You can send them a formal survey, maybe an exit survey in your opt out process. You know, let them tell you what good looks like and then, you know, use that feedback to get there. And I think the third thing, and this is a tough one because it's very hard to measure, we mentioned it on a previous episode, but there's this principle of what we call hidden metrics. You know, stuff which the mailbox providers like Yahoo and Gmail can see, which the sender can't see, but which are really important. You know, for example, email was placed in the junk folder, but your customer actually missed it and they went and fetched it back out of the junk folder and put it back in their inbox because they really wanted it. And that sends a seriously positive signal to Yahoo and Gmail that this is a valuable email. So, you know, you need to think about is there anything you can do to amplify those behaviors? You know, what can you do to make somebody forward an email? There was a great example which we saw from Asda supermarket in the uk a recent Valentine's Day where it was clearly pitched. The message went something like, does your other half need reminding that an important romantic event is coming up? Forward this email to them. And we could actually see that the forward email rates for that campaign were exceptional. So, you know, with a little bit of thought you can achieve it and sort of move the needle in terms of amping up some of those metrics.

[Jay Schwedelson]

Which I could use that email forwarded to me. I would like to get that forwarded to me, by the way. It'd be very helpful. So I have a question for our business to business marketers out there. So a lot of business markers out there, even though everyone says they don't do it, but they still do it. They do these cold email programs from their sales teams, right? Their BDRs, their SDRs are sending out these cold emails. Is it really important for kind of the cold email programs they have going on to be delivered from a separate domain IP infrastructure, whatever than it is your promotional emails. Like if they're all going out kind of from the same environment, can that be a root cause of why you're going to the junk folder or the spam folder?

[Danielle Gallant]

Yeah, yeah, it can. I just went to a conference where there was an entire hour and a half long session on cold emails. Like basically these are spammy. Cold email, you don't have permission. It's an inevitability for a lot of businesses. So it's going to happen. But yeah, I think j one way to protect your other mail streams is to have like a subdomain or separate IP or something like that. P.S. there is a subreddit for you lurkers that it's called cold Emails. And if you need a good laugh, I really encourage you to go to this subreddit.

[Jay Schwedelson]

Yes, guy. You subscribed all that?

[Guy Hanson]

Oh, absolutely. All I was going to say is it's exactly what we do as a business. Separate mail streams.

[Jay Schwedelson]

Yeah. I think that not enough people realize that, that you need to separate yourself from yourself. And you also have to be real. Listen, we got rid of cold email my business, a zillion years ago because it's just not a great way to establish a relationship. But it's naive to think that marketers, if you're doing it, you're not a horrible business, you're not a horrible person. And a lot of brands and businesses do it. But you need to get real with yourself and separate yourself from yourself because you could be hurting the mothership because of the way that you have your infrastructure set up. All right, everybody out there, go and follow Email After Hours podcast. It's an incredible show. Do this not that is mid, but you could follow that one too if you're bored. And we'll see at the next Spamageddon. That's a wrap on this episode of Spamageddon, but the battle for the inbox never ends. If you love this crossover chaos, you got to tune in the next time. And make sure to subscribe to Email After Hours podcast. It is one of my favorites. And also check out do this, not that podcast for Marketers. It is a blast. We'll see you at the next episode.