Cat Greenleaf on Sobriety, Shame, and Going Where The Water is Warm

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Don't Cut Your Own Bangs"

Episode: Cat Greenleaf on Sobriety, Shame, and Going Where The Water is Warm
Host: Danielle Ireland
Guest: Cat Greenleaf
Date: February 16, 2026

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Overview

This episode features a candid, therapy-informed conversation between host Danielle Ireland and Emmy-winning journalist and former "Talk Stoop" host Cat Greenleaf. They explore Cat’s journey with sobriety, what it means to move through shame, the intersections of public and private life, and the courage it takes to leave behind identities or projects that no longer fit. Cat reflects on the evolution of her work and shifting passions, her forthcoming transition into forensic mental health counseling, the shifting nature of her podcast "Soberness," and the wisdom of going “where the water is warm.” The dialogue is warm, real, and filled with bold honesty about the “messy middle” of life, work, and selfhood.

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Main Themes and Purposes

• Sobriety in the Public Eye: Navigating recovery while living a public life, and how private struggles become public stories.
• Shame, Survival, and Reinvention: The interplay between shame and addiction, and the continuous necessity for self-reflection and courageous change.
• Work as Lifeline & Hiding Place: Exploring the tendency to equate productivity with self-worth, and how work can both support and obscure personal growth.
• Letting Go and Moving Forward: Permission to outgrow people, jobs, or projects, and practical wisdom for change (e.g., “Go where the water is warm”).
• Therapy, Self-Care, and Boundaries: Honest discussions about the role—and limitations—of therapy and self-care for both clients and practitioners.
• Service and Future Aspirations: Cat’s passion for working with incarcerated individuals and her plan to become a forensic mental health counselor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Cat’s Approach to Sobriety and Her Podcast "Soberness"

• Balancing Authenticity & Levity:
  Cat’s podcast addresses sobriety “without making it precious and fragile”—it’s honest, sometimes gritty, and never reverent for the sake of it.
  “You don’t get sober unless it sucked while you weren’t sober. And that is the real deal.” —Cat (05:58)

• Making the Private Public:
  Cat discusses the challenge—and magnetism—of inviting public figures to share private recovery journeys, and her own path of sobriety away from the usual, sometimes “somber,” narratives.

• Changing Relationships with the Project:
  Cat is transparent about outgrowing her own podcast:
  “Why am I taking up the airspace with ‘Soberness’ if it’s not my best self? … I feel like my job on the planet is to get my best to whatever I’m doing… and I have started to feel like, why am I taking up the airspace with ‘Soberness’ if it’s not my best self?” —Cat (26:06–26:42)

  She plans to shift from recorded interviews to live events and storytelling to serve others more authentically.

Work, Productivity, and Self-Worth

• The Drive to Always Be Busy:
  From a young age, Cat saw work as a means to stay connected to life and avoid facing herself.
  “That’s how I feel a part of the world: through action.” —Cat (09:40)

• Work as Both Hiding Place and Lifeline:
  Danielle notes a recurring theme—a relationship between addiction and the compulsion to be productive, revealing “I am what I do” mindsets from guests on "Soberness."

The Nature of Shame and Addiction

• Shame Thrives in Secrecy:
  Danielle relates Brene Brown’s famous insight on shame:
  “The lie that shame will always tell you is if anybody knew this thing about me, it would all be over.” —Danielle (13:39)

  Cat concurs, adding that years in recovery were spent isolated before seeking community support:
  “I didn’t start recovering in community until about two and a half years ago… and I’ve been sober for what, 12 years now?” —Cat (14:05)

Personal Agency and Change

• Letting Go of “Shoulds”:
  Cat and Danielle dismantle the idea of “should,” with Cat declaring:
  “I have not found a should that works.” —Cat (14:17, 14:45)

• Decision to Get Sober:
  Cat describes the existential exhaustion that preceded her sobriety:
  “It was 22 out of your 24 hours consumed with this topic, and that’s spiritually exhausting. … I was sick and tired of being sick and tired.” —Cat (15:26)

Reframing Recovery and Individuality

• Not a Universal Path:
  Cat describes her non-linear recovery:
  “For me it’s a real continuum… I am not an AA person that believes if you have a lot of good time under your belt and you take one drink, that means you have to start at day one.” —Cat (16:38)

• The Weight of Shame & Responsibility:
  “My sack of shame and guilt is very heavy because I knew that I could have stopped.” —Cat (18:00–18:19)

Surprises, Joy, and Evolving Passions

• Following the Warm Water:
  The pivotal Brooke Shields quote:
  “Go where the water’s warm.” —Cat (33:13)

  Cat applies this as a navigational guide through career transitions, relationships, and self-discovery:
  “If something’s not working for you, you just move on. … I know when something is working or when it’s not.” —Cat (24:27–25:11)

• People’s Commitment to Joy:
  Cat notes what surprises her most as an interviewer is how fiercely people protect and pursue their own happiness—especially public figures who understand how their state impacts those around them.
  “At the end of the day, who can I really depend on and know fully? Only myself. We come in alone and we go out. How dare we not give ourselves the most we can?” —Cat (29:31–29:59)

Therapy, Self-Care, and Boundaries

• Therapy Isn’t for Everyone:
  Cat’s honest:
  “I hate therapy. It feels indulgent and it feels… [but] last time I was really in therapy, I was not in touch with myself. It wasn’t the therapist’s fault—they were never going to get in.” —Cat (21:21–21:50)

• Therapist Reflections:
  Danielle reflects on the therapist’s role, the need for authenticity, and how therapists (like herself) must know their own boundaries and ground themselves—offering rituals like a grounding mat and water glass to clear energy.
  “I got clear on what is my actual job in the room. … Part of my work is to be aware of that. If my codependent, people-pleasing desire to be a good student, good person—what that will turn into if I’m not in check is I’ll try to make the client feel good rather than do good work with them.” —Danielle (39:31)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Sobriety and Realness:
  “You don’t get sober unless it sucked while you weren’t sober. … You get sober because something bad went down. Or in my case, 30 years of bad things went down.”
  —Cat (05:45–05:58)

• On the temptation of shame:
  “The lie that shame will always tell you is if anybody knew this thing about me, it would all be over. My life would be over. I would lose everyone and everything.”
  —Danielle (13:39)

• On Outgrowing Work:
  “I have started to feel like, why am I taking up the airspace with Soberness if it’s not my best self?”
  —Cat (26:06–26:42)

• On Following Change:
  “Go where the water’s warm.”
  —Brooke Shields, as quoted by Cat (33:13)

• On Self-Loyalty:
  “At the end of the day, who can I really depend on and know fully? Only myself. … We come in alone and we go out. How dare we not give ourselves the most we can?”
  —Cat (29:31–29:59)

• On the Dangers of Culturally Mandated Selflessness:
  “Particularly as women, to focus on oneself, to be deemed selfish is terrible. … Men are allowed to be ambitious, driven, hungry and horny. And we are everything else.”
  —Danielle (29:59)

• On Letting Go:
  “It’s maybe one of the bravest things you can do to admit: this used to fit me … and it doesn’t anymore. Not because you failed, not because you’re flaky … but because you’ve changed. And you’re allowed to go where the water is warm.”
  —Danielle (51:04)

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Intro & Cat’s Past Work (Talk Stoop, Soberness): 01:13–07:38
• Work & Personal Evolution, Pre-Sobriety: 08:47–10:42
• The Interplay of Work, Addiction, Public Life: 11:17–13:24
• On Shame and Starting Recovery in Community: 13:24–14:05
• Letting Go of “Shoulds,” Making the Decision: 14:17–15:03
• Describing the Early days of Recovery: 15:26–18:19
• Brook Shields’s "Go Where the Water’s Warm": 33:13
• Most Memorable Interview Moments (Paul Reubens, Brooke Shields): 32:15–34:36
• The Shift to Forensic Counseling: 19:49–20:23
• Why “Soberness” Is Ending as a Podcast: 25:15–26:42
• Service Work and Shifting Focus: 24:27–27:13
• Reflections on Therapy, Self-Care (Danielle): 39:31–42:10
• On Personal Style, Aging, and Self-Acceptance: 48:10–51:02
• Closing Thoughts — Outgrowing Roles, Permission to Change: 51:04

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Episode Tone and Language

The tone is candid, irreverent, and warm, mixing vulnerability with dark humor and practical wisdom. Both host and guest are forthright, self-aware, and unafraid to confront sticky topics like shame, failure, and ambition. There’s a comfort in naming discomfort, and a palpable sense of mutual respect and insight.

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Additional Memorable Moments

• Cat describes her “don’t cut your own bang moment”: getting a “be kind” tattoo on her finger in a moment of self-blame, only to regret it and cover it up later (46:26).
• Danielle reflects on how important it is to listen for physical signals (e.g., “when my body responds, I know it’s a truth I need to hear”) (33:54).
• Margaret Cho’s punchy truth: “If you’re making money, who cares if you’re fucked up?” as cited by Danielle (34:36).
• Cat’s plan to move from sobriety-centered work to criminal justice and counseling, pivoting in her 50s with the same energy and commitment she’s brought to media.

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Final Takeaway

Both Cat and Danielle model the courage and honesty it takes to admit when something no longer fits, and to pursue joy and authenticity over external expectations. Their exchange reminds listeners: You are allowed to change, to rest, to seek help, to leave behind what no longer serves you, and above all, to “go where the water is warm.”

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For fans of honest, therapy-informed conversation and anyone navigating transitions, addiction, burnout, or questions of identity, this episode is a must-listen.

Transcript

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[Danielle Ireland]

Hello, hello and welcome back to don't cut your own bangs. I'm Danielle Ireland and I am thrilled to be here with you because today's guest is one of those people who just has presence, that it factor, that intangible thing you can't explain, but you're like, ah, there is a magnetism there. Today I'm talking to Kat Greenleaf. She's an Emmy award winning journalist and host. And if you're from New York or you spent any time there, you probably remember her show Talk Stoop. This is an iconic interview show that she did right on the stoop in her real life Brooklyn brownstone where she invited celebrities, big names and her bulldog Gracie to just casually hang out. No big deal. Have an amazing conversation in the heart of New York City. It was truly a moment. Kat also hosts the podcast called Soberness where she interviews celebrities about sobriety. But what I love is that her take on this topic is not a somber or precious one. It's real. It holds the weight that sobriety takes to get there without making it feel like everybody has to whisper. And in this conversation, we talk about all of it. We talk about becoming public. We talk about shame, we talk about survival mode, the way that work can become both a lifeline and a hiding place. And what it looks like when you are stepping into a new chapter of life not because something blew up, but because something in you said, yeah, I'm ready for more now or I'm ready for something different. So wherever you are on a walk in the car, folding laundry, or hiding in your bathroom for a few private moments. Come hang out with us and let's sit down and get ready to chat with Cat Greenleaf. As a mother of two and a human on the planet, one thing I know for sure is that we have big failings and we don't always know what to do with them. This is why I wrote a children's book called Wrestling a Walrus for little people with big Feelings. And I'll also add a subheading for the big people raising little people with big feelings. I am confronted with my own big emotions every time I feel out of control or my child is having a tantrum, or they're just not listening. It's hard. It is so hard. And it's so much easier to say than it is to embody and practice. What do we do with these combustible emotions? The heart of that process, that question and how we come together to find a way to do it is all wrapped up in my sweet little children's book called Wrestling a Walrus. I love this little book. It's a sweet, tender story. It's a illustrated beautifully, it's filled with a lot of heart, and it's rooted in not only my experience as a parent, but my work as a therapist. Hop on over to the Show Notes. Grab your copy. It's available on Amazon.com barnes and noble.com thanks so much for listening. And now let's get back to the episode. Kat Greenleaf welcome to the don't cut your own banks podcast. This is the second time we've talked. It was a blast chatting with you the first time, and I'm even more excited to talk to you this time. You are a burst of energy and passion. Do you have like a punk rock star energy about you now? Getting the opportunity to learn a little bit more about you before formally interviewing you and I'm like, oh well, no wonder. It's a no wonder. Like she's done so much. But I first, I want to start with your Soberness podcast. So I'm going to hop around in your timeline a little bit, with your permission, if that's all right.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Great.

[Danielle Ireland]

Your Soberness podcast. It's a show about sobriety, but it's not somber. What I love about your point of view on this topic in inviting people who are navigating their sobriety, like talking to this population is there is usually this tone of and then I got sober and then things got really dark and really serious. Not that it wasn't dark and serious, but you have a perspective that seems to hold both the authenticity and the gravity and the importance of sobriety without making it precious and fragile. And let me just. She interviews celebrities, so that's. You're talking to people who are in the public eye, who have gotten sober in the public eye, who have navigated a very private journey in the public space. You yourself have also done that. I'm really curious where this intersection is for you between making the private public, inviting people who are known in the public to share things, things privately. Because you have a history doing that, but you're doing that in such an intimate way now. I was really impressed with. Yeah, thank you.

[Kat Greenleaf]

So thanks. I first of all, I really appreciate that and I am a big fan of her show. So to be on here is super cool for me. I really think our schedules have been cooks, but we, we got it right. Like two working moms, right? Sobriety, we're going to yell about it. It's better light a hole. You know the thing, it's like, yes, being sober is great and I'm grateful. I'm grateful. But you don't get sober unless it sucked while you weren't sober. And that is the real deal. You know, nobody gets sober because everything was great. You get sober because something bad went down. Or in my case, 30 years of bad things went down. I was a terrible drinker since I like to think before I started drinking. I just know what an extreme human I am. You know, I knew I was going to love it. I knew it was not going to go well and that I was going to have to take care of it in the end. And then, and that is exactly what happened next. I was already a celebrity journalist. My previous show, Talk Stoop, I was a celebrity journalist at a time before there was this proliferation of celebrity content.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah. And you were also in digital before digital was really even a thing. Everyone has a platform online, but that really was a thing because wasn't your show on the early days? It was shown like in cats cabs in New York and stuff. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

[Kat Greenleaf]

So it's so interesting because I really dislike social media. I don't know, there's someone on my team who does it for the team and I don't do it at all personally. And the funny part is my show talks to I myself. Like, you do your own editing. I did my own editing. I cut it down. I cut it down from hour long conversations to 30 minute interviews for the show. Yeah. And then from 30 minute interviews to a minute 30 in the cabs. I think my last. My shortest run of cab pieces were 55 seconds. And then I was on the gas pumps for 27 seconds. And this was all previous to, you know, before TikTok and all the things. Yeah. So it was. And it was like dumb luck. You know, it was right place, right time.

[Danielle Ireland]

Truly.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Right place, right time. The cabs really built my business. It was a big deal because before there was Uber, before there was Netflix on your phone, you were stepping in New York City taxi cab and you were watching that screen. Yeah. And so everyone used to see Talk Stoop.

[Danielle Ireland]

Everybody returned.

[Kat Greenleaf]

And it made it kind of a magical moment. And you can't really plan for a magical. That's magical. So that's what happens. And. And so that show was huge labor of love. And I never have been into the celebrity. I'm not a pop culture person. I'm pretty out of it, actually. And, you know, my husband used to think that was an excuse. It's not an excuse. He said it was an excuse to not do my research. But in fact, I didn't like to lock people up because I wanted the questions on the show to be organic, real conversation. And that is what ended up happening. And that was huge. It was. Listen, when I got into journalism, I did it because I wanted to be in the newsroom, because I wanted to work every day. I knew that actors or other performers, like, sit around forever and wait for the phone to ring.

[Danielle Ireland]

You were a journalist. Because I'm hopping ahead of something that I was going to ask you later, but. So you were born in New York City and then you moved to the west coast and you started in journalism. Was it in San Francisco or on the radio? Correct. And then came back to New York. So you have this investigative, curious part of you, but it was from the news and reporting what's happening in the world, not the celebrity. So I totally get what you're saying. Right.

[Kat Greenleaf]

I was just curious about the world, about people, and I wanted to work every day. I knew I wanted to be busy all the time. And we could dive into that. What's the psychology of not wanting to sit around, not wanting to sit with myself? I like to work and I don't love vacation. Actually taking this topic into a sort of a different frame. I recently have shifted my spiritual practice from one that was very much about calm and.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Kat Greenleaf]

And I realized that my ministry in this world, my processing is action. That's how I feel. A part of the world in the way I want to. So I guess I knew it from very young. Just went to the newsroom. And so that's how my life was. It was about journalism and getting the story and hitting the street. And then my first son was born. And I wasn't given up that job at NBC Blank. So I had to figure how I could do all of it. And that's how Talks dude happened. And my first thought was just be home and talk to the mailman.

[Danielle Ireland]

I mean, you were working from home on your stoop, like on the stoop of your home in Brooklyn, when that was even pre. Because working from home really wasn't a model that became normalized. So you did a lot of those things early.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Yeah, I was certainly not working in TV from home. Now everyone does it. Look at both of us, right? My husband. I was just talking last week about. It was like this huge thing. It was a snowstorm and I couldn't get into something station. And our nanny held. It was not. Zoom.

[Danielle Ireland]

Skype. Skype, yeah.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Was just new. And so she held the laptop on the bottom of this dupe in the snow, and I was like, reported from on top. That was crazy. Then that was high tech, you know? And now, of course, you can do it from the point of a pin, basically. So, yeah, it was a really cool moment to be able to be with my kid, to grow my career. And it was also a weird moment because it was sort of my own thing that I was running, but within a very big company's a big company. And just for a person who's more of an entrepreneur, it's always been weird working for people and for big companies.

[Danielle Ireland]

Well, there's a few themes that I was picking up on. One theme from your Soberness podcast, which I do want to touch on, because that's also like the launch pad of something else you're going to start to do. But a theme in a lot of your interviews, like, I'm pretty sure I heard Hank Azaria talk about it. I heard Rumer Willis talk about it. There was a theme when a lot of people's stories, in terms of their sobriety, the undercurrent of how their addiction manifested, also this relationship with work and productivity. And I am what I do, I am what I produce. I am. I am not worth anything if I'm not doing those things. Those are themes that came up a lot in your interviews. And I'm curious with you. When you were hosting Talk Stoop, you were a known person in New York City and beyond, and you're interviewing People that from afar. As someone who lives in the Midwest, you're interviewing the unicorns that we see on our TV screen. You were also having a journey during these highs in your career. I mean, your show won Emmys. Am I. Is that how many these Emmys here?

[Kat Greenleaf]

To my.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah, you were hitting high, high highs. And then could you. With as much as you're comfortable sharing, what were those valleys? You know, these peaks, high highs, and then these valleys. Can you color that in a little bit? Sure.

[Kat Greenleaf]

It really had nothing to do with work. Like I said, I've been drinking since I was 13.

[Danielle Ireland]

Okay.

[Kat Greenleaf]

And it was bad all the time. I had peaks and valleys all the time. You know, the really interesting thing to me is how did I keep a job? How did I stay in school? How did I keep a job? How did I stay married? You know, I don't know. An alcoholic could justify anything any time of day. So, you know, while I was. Before my career really hit a lot of highs. It was, well, there's no stakes here. It doesn't matter if I'm drunk in public, who cares? And then while it was rocking and raging, it's like, well, I need this to unwind. And then when I was getting sober while my show is at its peak, it was like, well, I don't want to do this in public because everyone in New York has taken a cab to this meeting. Not just seeing you.

[Danielle Ireland]

You know, I think that Brene Brown talks about shame thrives in secrecy and at the root of any addiction. Any addiction, whether we're talking food, shopping, screens, at the root of every addiction is shame.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Yes.

[Danielle Ireland]

And the lie that shame will always tell you is if anybody knew this thing about me, it would all be over. My life would be over. I would lose everyone and everything. And in some ways, that's true, but not in the. Not in the. The capital T, truthy ways.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, I know that now. Certainly didn't know that then. It was years and years until I knew that. So I didn't start recovering in community until about two and a half years ago.

[Danielle Ireland]

And you've been Sober for what, 12 years now? Yeah. Okay, so you did 10 years without going to any kind of group or what we would understand. Okay, so tell me what that process was like. Cause again.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Right, right. And I actually, the word should makes me skin curly. I have not found any should that works. Meaning if I'm saying to you, it's judgy, and if you're saying it to me, I'm already doing it wrong. You know, so I don't love that word.

[Danielle Ireland]

I have not found a should that works. I love that my joke with it is that you're shoulding all over yourself. But I love. I have not found a should should that works. You're right. You're totally right.

[Kat Greenleaf]

It.

[Danielle Ireland]

It doesn't. It never does. Kat, 12 years ago, you made a decision. And. And I'm curious, was it a decision and then the behavior change, or did you start changing the behavior around alcohol and then declared it what came first?

[Kat Greenleaf]

Yes. Well, it was a long time coming.

[Danielle Ireland]

Okay.

[Kat Greenleaf]

So anyway, the question was going to be when. When am I going to call on the strength it's going to take to not drink?

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Kat Greenleaf]

And, you know, I have a very complicated relationship with A. And we can talk about that. But one of the great lines in A is being sick and tired of being sick and tired.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Kat Greenleaf]

And that is what I was. You know how exhausting it is to wake up and feel terrible about what you did last night. Also feel physically terrible. Also try to blame your husband and make sure that he knows that it was his fault. But clearly it was. Then after that, you have to talk to yourself all day about how you're not going to drink at all tonight. Well, maybe just three drinks. Because if I just do three drinks, it should be fine, you know? And now you're like 22 out of your 24 hours has been consumed with this topic. And that's spiritually exhausting. It was physically exhausting. And I was sick and tired of.

[Danielle Ireland]

Being sick and tired. Yeah.

[Kat Greenleaf]

And so I was talk to the universe all the time. I asked for a sign. I asked for that string. And what happened was I went to a wedding on September 29th, and this man sat down next to me, total punk rocker. Tattoos, just missed style. And he ordered a seltzer. Well, I know what that means. Hi. Tell me all about it, I said, and he told me all about it, and that was it. But also, I'm not gonna say that I didn't slip up and have a drink here and there. I am not an AA person that believe if you have a lot of good time under your belt, you take one drink. That means you have to start at day one.

[Danielle Ireland]

Sure.

[Kat Greenleaf]

I don't. I don't. For me, it's a real continuum.

[Danielle Ireland]

Well, it's your life and it's your rules, and it's your sobriety that. Who am I? Who are we to judge? Yeah. I mean, you're the one that's waking up, stepping into your life and Your relationships and your peace with that. And I was even thinking, too, that when you. Because I'm thinking from, like, just that narrow clinical lens, like, what's the diagnostic criteria? And to your point, man, I truly believe with. With every fiber of my being, at some point in my lifetime, every diagnosis will be a spectrum because you have technically abused alcohol if you've ever experienced a hangover. But I think that when you think the quality of your relationships, the quality of your health, the quality of your life, the way that you're talking about yourself and to yourself, that your ability to get up and do your work, it sounds like, for the most part, you were a functioning alcoholic. Until you weren't.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Yes. Thousand percent. And, you know, could I have functioned better? I don't know about any of that, but I do know I would have felt better mice. Because, yeah, this is the crummy thing about alcoholism. It is a disease that we do not ask to have. No. But for better or for worse, we hold only we can create the cure. And then it's a slippery slope because you're like, I'm the only one that can cure it, Then I must have been the one that caused it. Did I?

[Danielle Ireland]

Cause.

[Kat Greenleaf]

No.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Kat Greenleaf]

But I also did not stop all those years that I knew I could. So where I'm going with this is that my sack of shame and guilt is very heavy because I knew that I. I could have stopped. The chorus in my head is saying, no, you couldn't have because you're an alcoholic. Give yourself a break.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yes and no.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Yes and no. If. If I was able to do it at 42, could I have done it at 41? Yeah, probably.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Kat Greenleaf]

I didn't want to. Right. But I didn't want to. And by the time I did stop at 42, it was dying, man. I was tired of all of it, of the lying to myself and to everyone, and it was just a. Never ending.

[Danielle Ireland]

I like something that Gabby Bernstein said in your interview with her, that you can't deprive anybody of their bottom. I. I liked that. I thought that that was interesting because, like, her. Her tolerance for her bottom didn't seem to go as. As low as. Which, I mean, how great for her. But also, I think she got sober very young. Yeah, I think she got sober like a 25. But I. I'm curious because you've also interviewed people who have generations of public challenges with substances. Jack Osborne, for example, appreciated the question you had of, like, of observing your father and his relationship with it. Was it a cautionary tale, or did it pique your interest? Like, I was like, right, what a bold ass question. What a great.

[Kat Greenleaf]

He said both, right? Said both things. You know, and that's really, for me, the older I get, the more I think everything is both, you know, or at least in my life, very few things are purely this or that, you know, things. Now, unfortunately, though, for me, if something looks like a cautionary tale, I am diving in. I can't wait to figure it out. And I was a very low bottom.

[Danielle Ireland]

Drunk, by the way.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Very low bottom drunk. Malt liquor out of a paper bag. I mean, yeah, unnecessary. Yeah, unnecessary lows. And I still have to stop myself from, like, going toward the frame of the bad thing. But it's also phase of my life where I think I shared with you that I'm going to school. I'm hoping to get my master's in Forensic Mental health counseling because. Yes. And by the way, today's a big day. I had my first in class class since 1992.

[Danielle Ireland]

But you know what? If there was ever a reason to have to juggle a calendar, I'm like, come in. The water's fine. Join us in the mental health space. We need you, and we need people with your lived experience and also people who have at least scratched the surface with their own investigating. I was somebody, and I'll call myself out. I went into a helping profession because I didn't realize I was also avoiding my own work. That was part of my codependent show. It's like, if I can go in and start jumping in and helping people, then that means I'm good. If I can help you, that means there's nothing wrong with me. And, oh, boy, did I have a reckoning. The first time I experienced countertransference, which is just like a clinical term for someone was bearing their soul to me in a session. And then I was having a response, like mirror neurons were firing. My body was going, oh, no, there's something I need to look at. And so I didn't start therapy until I became a therapist.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Yeah, this is fascinating. Personally, I hate therapy.

[Danielle Ireland]

You know what, Kat? I just. I'm so glad that you feel comfortable telling me what you really think. I was worried you'd be nervous about it. I'm teasing. I'm totally, totally teasing. I know. No, but. Okay, so tell me why you hate therapy.

[Kat Greenleaf]

It feels indulgent and it feels well. But, you know, okay, I will say, last time I was really in therapy, I was not in touch with myself. I was guarding.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Kat Greenleaf]

That it Wasn't the therapist's fault. They were never going to get in.

[Danielle Ireland]

I'll say I've got many, many thoughts. Like you said two words. And I was like, okay, so I don't know if having a lifelong relationship with one therapist where you talk every week or every other week about a circular, this is what, like where the conversation with the therapist is essentially a journal entry, I don't know what purpose that serves through how I understand it. I also think that therapists, they only can work with what's showing in the room. And so having done both things, having sat in like the client seat, I think there's a lot of power a therapist has and if they don't humanize themselves, it can quickly become, you know more about me than I know about me or you're the authority on what is wrong with me. And I think that fear of finding out, being told there's something wrong with you, and I think that really keeps a lot of people from starting. And I think like anything, there's great doctors and there's terrible doctors, there's great therapists and there's bad therapists. And to your point, it's also not the time to do that work. If one, you don't want to, or two, you're not ready. I can't tell you how many clients I worked with because a spouse drug them in. If you've been listening to this podcast and thought to yourself, dang, I really want to do some deep diving. I want to ask myself some bold questions, but I don't know where to start or I'm ready, but I just need someone to help hold my hand through the process. I have a tool for you called the Treasure Journal. It is a seven part guided journal that is infused with and informed by my therapy practice. There are sentence stems so you never have to feel stuck looking at a blank page. You never have to wonder where to start. There are stories to help remind you that that you're not alone in this process and to kick off some of the inspired creative thinking that really gets the healing process going. And also there's lots of blank space in the back if you think, okay, I loved answering this question, but I want to take it further. There's space for you to make that practice your own. You're welcome to visit the link in the show notes for the Treasure Journal and you can grab your copy today. No, I embrace it. My dog's in the room too. But for anybody listening who to wants wasn't familiar with her show talk stoop One of the frequent co hosts on her show was a bulldog named Gracie. So she would sit on the stoop and like, interview Nicole Richie and Kim Kardashian and then there would be her bulldog, Gracie. So anyway, I digress. But, but no, I think also I. I say this about self care too. It's only self care if it's working. So therapy is only therapeutic if it's working for you. If it's not working for you, then don't do it. Or just stop. And yeah, like, I change my mind about what workouts I want to do all the time. Why wouldn't you do that for anything else?

[Kat Greenleaf]

Yes, thank you for saying that. Okay, so I'm going through something interesting recently where, you know, I'm starting this new thing with school, and it's almost not new because I've been at this with working with incarcerated people for two years. So it's not fly by night here. This is. I am passionate about it. I keep getting this. This thing from people. You know, Kat, what I really respect is the way that if something's not working for you, you just move on. And I'm like, huh? Are you trying to say that I am not giving things their full attention or that I. But I don't really feel that way. What? I feel like this. I'm 53, almost 54. I've done a lot of things in my life and I know when something is working or when it's not. Do it till the end if you're not loving it.

[Danielle Ireland]

No.

[Kat Greenleaf]

And that's what's happening with my podcast. Soberness.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yes.

[Kat Greenleaf]

I love connecting with. But what I do not love in being worried about clicks, likes the algorithm, comparing myself to other podcasts. There are so many sobriety focused podcasts out there and people who are all about it. And I really feel like, well, then those are the people who should be talking about it. I am a person who is sober, but it is not something that's on my mind 24 7. I don't leave with it with conversation. I don't think about it very often.

[Danielle Ireland]

Sure.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Say the truth. Sure. So I'm not. Well, no, I am sure that these are not. I want to be having wider, broader conversations. And. And also I've been a journalist for 30 years and it's no longer turning me on in the way that working with incarcerated individuals.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Kat Greenleaf]

And I feel like my job on the planet is to get my best to whatever I'm doing. Being a mother, being a wife, being a friend. Sitting here on this show I need to be my best, or why am I taking up the space? And I have started to feel like, why am I taking up the airspace with soberness if it's not my best self? Yeah. And, and I'm listening back to my interviews and I'm like, okay, these are good. Are they phenomenal? I don't think so, frankly. The celebrities deserve better than me being a little restless. The viewers deserve better than me being restless. So, so we're morphing.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Kat Greenleaf]

And the way we're morphing the show is we're going from these recorded interviews to live events only. I mean, my, my base of operations in New York City is the Algonquin Hotel. And I am all about New York City. And that's an icon and I love being in it. I'm really happy when I'm in there. And so we're going to be going to storytelling format, but not an interview format. I really want to open the floor to other people who feel they have to tell their story in that I think I'm serving viewers better, I'm serving the storytellers better, and I'm serving myself better.

[Danielle Ireland]

I'm curious as. Okay, so you 30 year journalism career and you, you seem to have this real. You trust yourself when you get that hit of like, this isn't working, this isn't clicking something that is interesting me. Like you're following your curiosity, you're following what interests you, which I think is always in terms of like creatives and the creative path. It's like you've, you ever hear like Christopher Nolan talk about an idea that really lights him up? Or even Steven Spielberg, they talk about these, these whispers or the spark of an idea that doesn't seem like anything. And they just keep pulling at that thread because they can't put it down. As somebody who is curious about people, who spent 30 years having conversation with people and interviewing people, what still surprises you about people? And I'll say in a great way, what surprises you?

[Kat Greenleaf]

People's commitment to their own joy.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yes, please say more.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Okay. So you could look at it like that person, just that they're all about themselves. I feel, I think, like I stated, you're on this planet for a short period of time. You don't want to live it miserable. And because I speak to forward facing people, actors, performers, they know that what they're putting out there has a ripple effect and touches people. And so they know if they're not their full best selves, they can't really be bringing their full best Selves. So people who have been Iran Hay Gazeria was he. He was such an important guest. Because here's a guy who's a grown up and still his relationship with his parents, so important to him. When I was young, thought, oh, by the time you're a little older, your parents, whatever he goes, they put them on another shelf. But it doesn't matter. He wants to feel okay. He's done and is doing the work to reconcile something that wasn't right for him. And Steve Earle, Same thing. You know, even though he's been sober many years, keeps up with his recovery. He keeps coming on shows and talking about it. He keeps talking about it from stage.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Kat Greenleaf]

He's committed to making sure that he's in the best headspace.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Kat Greenleaf]

A, so he's happy and B, so he can bring that to his audiences. Means a lot to me. Because at the end, and we only have ourselves.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yes.

[Kat Greenleaf]

And that I say that as a person and love my husband and my children beyond as we all do. I love where I live. I love. God, I. A lot of love. But at the end of the day, who can I really depend on and know fully? Only myself. Only myself. We come in alone and we go out. How dare we not give ourselves the most we can?

[Danielle Ireland]

Well, what you're also speaking to is something that is actually, it can be a really vulnerable and touchy subject because I think, particularly as women, that to focus on oneself, to be deemed selfish is. Is terrible. We are not allowed. Men are allowed to be ambitious, driven, hungry and horny. And we are everything else. And we are everything else. What you're speaking to is, again, I'm going to pull something from Brene Brown again that I love. That you cannot give or you cannot model what you do not have. And so you cannot be a model to teach others to love themselves, to follow their truth, to follow their curious creative path. You can't love anybody more than beyond your own capacity to love yourself, because what you have the capacity for, that's where everything else shines from.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Renee Brown would stop biting my style. No matter what I say, she just turns it into her own.

[Danielle Ireland]

So here's the. Here. No, here's what I find, though, that when someone is hitting on a truth, I mean, what. What is original anymore, for one. But when somebody hits on something, it's true. It's going to pop up it. That's when you know you're hitting something true. It's like, oh, it's true here and it's true here and it's true. It's not conditionally true.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Literally. That's right.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah. Yes.

[Kat Greenleaf]

In fact, what's her name? AJ McLain, who we have running right now. She changed his life.

[Danielle Ireland]

That's. I didn't get to watch that interview. I wanted to, but I didn't get to watch that one yet. That's cool.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Yeah. He's new. He just dropped, I think.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Yeah. And I thought that was really cool. You know, it was another interesting one because I have had them on my show when we were all not sober.

[Danielle Ireland]

The Backstreet Boys, you mean? Yeah.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Then for us to be meeting each other once again as grownups who are both sober was really cool. It showed me that, I don't know, change can happen. You know, I wasn't the only one who went through it, and that felt really good. So I was so happy that he came.

[Danielle Ireland]

Is there any moment from either your soberness podcast or from Talk Stoop? Is there a moment you still think about? I have moments where. And I can't even explain why, but there'll be a moment with a client that touched me or surprised me that every once in a while, when my thoughts aren't focused on something, it'll just run back through. Do you have any moments like that?

[Kat Greenleaf]

So many. And then also, it's more of a collective whole. It was a string of pearl moments.

[Danielle Ireland]

Right.

[Kat Greenleaf]

The necklace, a pearl one was a different pearl. That's made the whole strength. Some particularly important ones, though, for me were Paul Rubin's peewee.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Kat Greenleaf]

We also had a very special thing, and we stayed in touch right until he died and my birthday's coming up. What he would do on my birthday, every hour, he would send me another E card.

[Danielle Ireland]

Every hour on your birthday? That is so touching.

[Kat Greenleaf]

It was so beautiful. And then actually, the story gets weirder. So I ended up losing all of my contacts last year.

[Danielle Ireland]

Oh.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Which, believe it or not, was the most liberating possible thing.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah, sure.

[Kat Greenleaf]

And then my husband and I were actually saying the other day, too, about, like, was there one particular quote that stayed with me all these years? So there is one. Brooke Shields, go where the waters were. And text was, if I feel like I should be on Broadway, but Broadway's not calling, and television is go on television. And in my life, I have found that, too. You know, kind of right now with stubbornness, the water doesn't feel warm there because, a, I'm not feeling excited as I should be. Where's the water warm? At John Jay College for Criminal Justice. Yeah. So you go where the Water's and everything else does kind of find its. So that has, that's actually been a beacon in my life ever since she said it. She said it to me by the.

[Danielle Ireland]

Way, 16 years ago that gave me chills on my legs was how I know it's like a truth that I need to hear when my body responds like that. Elizabeth Gilbert talks about how when your inner knowing is like similar with Brooke Shields, go where the water's warm. She said when I am speaking truth, my body relaxes. She was like, my core, it feels like warm vanilla pudding. It just feels like this, this warm cozy sweetness that just relaxes my body. And that's the current to follow. Another quote that really stood out to me was from Margaret Cho now and again it wasn't like it wasn't waxing poetic, but it was just so profoundly true. And I think it spoke to. What probably keeps people silent is if you're making money, who cares if you're fucked up?

[Kat Greenleaf]

Yeah.

[Danielle Ireland]

And, and so like I just thought, well damn, that is a punch in the face of truth that I think keeps people in that liminal space of high functioning suffering. And I think that whether people are trying to find their ways through sobriety or not, I think that is definitely the population. People who are high functioning privately, like in their pantries and in their closets, it's crumbling but outward facing are hitting all the marks. You know, it's like you're making money. Who cares if you're fucked up? I'm. Yeah.

[Kat Greenleaf]

So I have a question for you. What type of person who comes to see you or the challenge that a person or couple brings lets you do your best work?

[Danielle Ireland]

Oh, what a. Thank you for that question. I don't work with high crisis clients and I've gotten to a point similar to how you've described in your own way. I can feel a resonance in my body when I'm like this person is going to be best served somewhere else or versus that, that sort of lock and key feeling of like, oh yeah, for whatever season of time, for however long, like let's dance, this is going to work. And I really trust that feeling. And I'm an enneagram for. Or if you're a Myers Briggs person and an extroverted intuitive feeler perceiver. So I'm all feeling first and then I make sense of it later. So I'll just say like that's usually the first gauge. And I will say that's actually new for me to acknowledge that out loud because I, I think I'VE been a unicorn hiding in a power suit for a while where, like, I, you know, like, I just. I just. I thought to be like a buttoned up, serious, important person, there was a way that I had to present. And I was sort of hiding behind my credentials because I didn't think it'd be taken seriously otherwise. And I'm learning to allow all those other parts of me to exist. So the true answer is I check in with my body first. Because if I don't listen to my body, I always find out it was right the first time somewhere else down the road. And the consequences are usually higher. But I'll to. To answer it more specifically, somebody who's already done their own amount of investigating, and they're like, I just keep hitting brick walls. It's like, I'm trying and I'm trying and I'm trying and I need to air out all my dirty laundry to someone. And what I find I actually do is a couple of things. It's so much less work than I think people would imagine. But I listen to people enough without judgment until they hear their own words back. And I think what we're really afraid of is hearing the truth of our own words. What you've already said, you're like, I always knew I had a problem. I always knew. I mean, whether I'm working through clients who are going through a divorce, or like, I knew on our wedding night, I knew a month, or like, I knew a month before we got married, or I knew when they proposed, or it'll be like, I knew I didn't think it was gonna work, but I wanted to get pregnant. Like, I think that we know. And then there are so many things that get in the way of us either acknowledging, trusting, or acting on that, knowing. And my life is not affected by the choices you make as your therapist, but I care about you. So it's a different position than a friendship or a boss or a spouse. Because, like, the decisions you make for your life aren't going to directly impact me. So I'm not interested in swaying you for my benefit. Yeah. And so really what I think I do is I help people hear themselves. I'll reframe it back. What's amazing is how many times I'll repeat back verbatim what somebody has actually said in their own words, and they'll say, well, no, no, no. It's like what they're actually doing is they're debating their internal dialogue through me. And I think I help people who are lost in doubt. Really come back into the seat inside them. But like you even said kind of in the beginning, you're like, well, that is kind of indulgent. But I think all, all of those things can be true. And then also I think I love working myself to a point with clients where they don't need those conversations anymore. And I also find professionally that those conversations I love having. But I've hit a cap. I know exactly how many clients I can see in a week before it starts to feel like the water's getting cold. But my capacity for having conversations like this feels so warm. Long term, I'm not trying to project too much of what that means, but if I can have more conversations like this, then that's like I'm on a. I don't know, in Fiji, like, that's my warm water.

[Kat Greenleaf]

I have one more question for you, if you let me, which is how do you ground yourself? How do you clear yourself? Because you know, you are taking other people's energy and you are opening all of your channels and your chakras when you're talking to people. And in order to reset so that you can be there for others, how do you do that?

[Danielle Ireland]

That's a great question. I'll give you, I'll give you like a mind, body, spirit answer. So the mind approach, one of the best things a therapist I worked on, worked with early on, and when I was practicing, he was like, what is your philosophy? What is your. Because I could rattle off like acceptance and commitment therapy and narrative therapy and shame resilience and strengths there. Like, I could rattle off all of these different theories and perspectives that I studied. But he was like, what is yours? And then because in my mind I was like, well, who am I? And he, what he said so bluntly but sincerely, he was like, you are the person in the room. You have to know where you stand. And that was so empowering because the follow up to that was, what do I want to own and be responsible for in the room? Because if we're talking about sobriety, I am not responsible for a client getting sober. I can't be, because that is their job. And so part of my work to be aware of that, if my codependent people pleasing desire to be a good student, good person, what that will turn into if I'm not in check is I'll try to make the client feel good rather than do good work with them, or I'll try to make them not feel bad rather than maybe let them feel whatever they need to feel to do the work that they need to do. So I got clear on what is my actual job in the room. What do I want to take ownership of, what do I want to be responsible for and what is my client responsible for. And that also helped me gauge too is this client ready to work with me in this capacity or not? Because I think there are different therapists who do different work and different types of therapy like that wouldn't fly in schools. You need a solutions focus system like that wouldn't work in hospice. Like what I'm talking about isn't a one size fits all thing. But it worked for me. So that was the mind approach that was helpful, the body approach. What I do to feel grounded. 1. I actually have a grounding mat under my chair. A friend of mine recommended that to me. It's really cool. It's a new thing. And I also have a salt lamp on my floor too that I can put my feet on. So those. That. And then a couple of the things that I do that are comforting. I always have a candle lit and then something else that a friend of mine who does energy work suggested is keep a glass of water on the far end of the room open and then at the end of the session just pour that water out. And so there's like a. A place for the energy to go in the room that isn't yours. It's also a ritual and it helps me sort of I'm signed on and then I'm signed off. And then what's another thing that I do? Well, when weather permits I will either stand on. I've got a vibration plate in here or I'll go for a walk outside. But I move between sessions. And I'll say I though that I try to do in theory. I don't always do it in practice, but you live right by the ocean. So maybe just go put your feet in the water. For sure.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Definitely.

[Danielle Ireland]

Wait before we get out of time because you got two questions in on me. You're so good. One, I just want to say I'm so envious that you got to interview Nick Kristoff. I just wanted. Okay, so for. So he is the. He and his wife Cheryl Wuden, they wrote the book Half the Sky that look changed my life. Changed my life. That book was one of the breadcrumbs that when I. Because I in a former life I taught ballroom dance. I did that for seven years and then of. But the water wasn't feeling warm with dance which. Thank you Brook Shields, I'm going to use that now. Forever. And that book, I had just such a visceral experience reading what he and his wife were writing. And they did such a great job of highlighting what was happening with women in the world, all around the world. But then also. Yes, but it, it left you with hope. Like, this is what can happen if you support women. And these are ways you could. It felt so actionable and beautiful. So I'm so envious of that. And then Dr. Drew and Supes Orman. I just want to, like, vicariously and very selfishly. What was it like interviewing them? Because they're also experts. They're not just celebs.

[Kat Greenleaf]

No, they're not celebs. And they're also friends. Know them from my old life. They're all, in fact, frequent flyers on Talk Stoop. I interviewed them more than once. So seeing them again on this show was amazing. Right. Like, because I didn't know if anyone was gonna remember my name or even want to talk to me again. And it was. That was great. Susie is nuts. Like in the best way my life. She's so impassioned and that just like I could listen to her forever. And she's so smart. She's so driven, smart.

[Danielle Ireland]

It's like, like people want to caricatureize. I mean, I kind of forgot because I remembered her from Oprah days. But then watching bits of your interview, I'm like, God, well, you want to pull out a notebook whenever she starts to talk, you' I need to do this, and I need to do this. Okay, thank you. Yes.

[Kat Greenleaf]

And. And I have a lot of love for her because, yes, she's talking about money, but what it really is is security. What it women, take care of yourself. It's not about having a man take care of you. It's really about self control. So these are all great things that she shares. So I have a lot of love for Susan.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Dr. Drew. Now, what's so cool about him is despite glam and the Hollywoodness of his life, he's professional. He's a medical professional who cares about people. And I have so much respect for doctors. He cared. He's not an addict himself. You know, a lot of people in work, in recovery, for recovery, and he just cares to see people get better. And he, at least with me, has been saying around in the conversations we've had, I hear him as very non judgmental and as an addict who feels so judged by herself, it's lovely to get sort of a scientific opinion attached and delivered with care.

[Danielle Ireland]

Oh, that's so nice. Because I Think it's easy to focus on the shining stars. But I'll be honest. Like, I geeked out when I saw Nick Kristoff on your show.

[Kat Greenleaf]

I was like, I couldn't believe that. And the way it worked out, too, because he's not based in New York. And when I told my booker that I wanted him to be on, she's like, well, I called her. It just so happens he's in town and you're shooting tomorrow, so why doesn't he come over? And he was like, so cool, like magic. So that's. He is real magic.

[Danielle Ireland]

I want to be respectful of your time because I know you have another call to hop on when we're done here. I would be totally remiss if I don't ask you about your don't cut your own bang moment. And if we have time, you mentioned in addition to celebrities and sobriety, you are an expert in french fries, and I would love to know you have a hot rock recommendation where I might find some yummy fries the next time in New York. But please, I want to know your don't cut your own bang moment.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Okay, well, my don't cut my own bang moment is a don't do that tattoo moment. So while I was at NBC during a particularly tough time there, as I mentioned, hard to be a entrepreneur in a company, in someone else's company, but it was really going south there for a minute for me in terms of interpersonal relations. And I got a tattoo, I thought it was all my fault. First of all, it's never all one person's.

[Danielle Ireland]

No.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Unless we're talking about extreme cases of use, that's a whole other thing. Okay. Otherwise, in things like in business, it's generally not all one person's. So I was under the impression that it was all my fault, and I was the worst. And it's never going to get better unless I tattoo this on my finger. And it was be kind. So like I said earlier, I'm sort of ahead of it culturally. And I didn't really realize that Ellen was, like a be kind, you know, queen.

[Danielle Ireland]

Right?

[Kat Greenleaf]

So suddenly, it's like having just do it or something. Like, it's like this corporate thing that I had sucked in on my body. So then I, like, sobered up and was away from that whole scene. And I looked at. I'm like, I hate this tattoo, and I hate looking at it all the time. So I then put a cobra over it, because sober cobra is what my. My. The people on my show call me because I Used to drink King cobra. Disgusting. Anyway, and so that then it didn't really work. Like when I get tattoos on my fingers, I usually need to do it a few times. So I as it was coming off, I thought, I don't want the cobra and I don't want be kind. I want any of it. So now I'm having it removed. But basically the way you're not supposed to tattoo like a girlfriend's name or boyfriend's name or whatever. Also like really give it a beat if it's like a self hatred thing and be kind was like, you, Cat Greenleaf are bad.

[Danielle Ireland]

You're touching on a nuance because there are some don't cut your own bang moments where it's like, yeah, take a beat and wait. Particularly if it's coming from self hate. I love that. Because it's not about be cautious all the time. But take a beat if it's not coming from a loving place within you.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Right.

[Danielle Ireland]

That's what you know. And like the old adage of tattoos are permanent anymore. They're not. It hurts to come off, but they're not permanent.

[Kat Greenleaf]

They're not. But can we just discuss for a second right now I would really like to get some permanent eyeliner.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Cause I don't know, my eyelashes aren't what they once were.

[Danielle Ireland]

Sure.

[Kat Greenleaf]

And I feel like in this battle that I'm waging against looking all. But is that like a terrible idea to tattoo something on your eyes that could be there forever?

[Danielle Ireland]

What are your thoughts? I've had microblading done which is basically like the version of that for eyebrow. And it's different than an actual tattoo needle. They take these little, almost like a little wire brush. So they're like little baby needles and they create these scratches. So I don't think that the tattoo they would do on your eyelid is like the same tattoo. I think there's a different method for it. You have to get them touched about that. I guess my thought is I don't know. And I just had LASIK this year and I think anything around eyes, I'm like, oh, you only have two and you really, really need those.

[Kat Greenleaf]

So I'm pretty vain and if it doesn't look good, I'll be bummed out. And I know it didn't look good with no eyelashes either.

[Danielle Ireland]

Think we should have a follow up convers around all the things because I, you know, talking beauty and aging gracefully or I don't know what aging gracefully means, but I would love to have a follow up conversation when I was going through your history. I'm like, oh, I love how her hair is braided in that interview and I love how it's done in that one. I was like, yes, I just need to take a few pages from your book.

[Kat Greenleaf]

But on that too. So here's the thing. I've always worn braids. I've been. I've had the same style since I'm 12 years old. No. No joke. And what I love re braids. And then she's other.

[Danielle Ireland]

I was like, quite old. No.

[Kat Greenleaf]

To be wear.

[Danielle Ireland]

No.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Tell me true.

[Danielle Ireland]

That was honestly one of the first things I made a note. I was like, really? Like how she styles her hair for her interviews.

[Kat Greenleaf]

So, yeah, it's my favorite. I love wearing. And when. You know how I get. We all have a picture of our signs in my mind. This is what I'm wearing. I'm wearing jeans, camouflage pants, a white. White feet are always white. But my closet is absurd. And then my hair in braids. And that is the look. And Chuck Taylor sneakers.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Since I'm 12, it is how I see myself. But I want to make sure it's like when you see an old lady in a mini skirt and you're like, you're too old, I want to make sure I don't look like that.

[Danielle Ireland]

I mean, one I would like who said, where did the rule come from? And I think it depends on the person wearing the miniskirt. Because I think, yes, I haven't had the relationship with, like, style in the same way you're thinking. But I love whenever I see Chelsea Handler in an interview, I'm like, ah, she can just say things and zing things. And it just sounds so pure coming from her. If I tried to say what she's saying, I truly believe people would be like, she's a bitch. It wouldn't be like, cute. So I think it. It's really how embodied you are in whatever it is you're doing. I can appreciate her, but that wouldn't work for me. I think someone could probably rock a miniskirt, but it just depends. Are you embodying the miniskirt? Does that really right. Feel like wearing you? Yeah. I think I loved your braids.

[Kat Greenleaf]

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Danielle Ireland]

You're welcome. Happy to offer whatever I can. Thanks, Kat. Okay. I loved that conversation. And the thing that I keep thinking about, this thing that I. I want to leave with you. And it's maybe one of the bravest things you can do to admit this used to fit me. This relationship used to fit me. This job used to fit me. This role that I was performing used to fit me. And it doesn't anymore. Not because you failed, not because you're flaky, not because you didn't stick with something, but because you've changed. Your life has changed, your energy has changed, and you're allowed to go where the water is warm. Thank you for that quote, Brook Shields. Kat, thank you so much for your honesty, for your heart, your humor, and for letting us see the middle of becoming and continuing to evolve through different stages of life. I am really grateful for your time and to you listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please take 10 seconds to rate, review and subscribe to don't cut your own bangs. It's one of the easiest ways to support the podcast and help other people find it who could benefit from it too. All right, I'm sending you off with a little bit of permission today. You don't have to have the whole plan, but just take the next honest step. I can't wait to see you next time and I hope you continue to have an incredible day.

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[Pacific Source Health Plan Narrator]

Jack Harndale was helping his daughter Emily lift an awkward dresser up a staircase when he slipped and fell backwards. A week later, Emily asked him how he was doing.

[Kat Greenleaf]

I'm good.

[Pacific Source Health Plan Narrator]

Truth was, he wasn't good. Jack needed help. Then the darndest thing happened. Emily called Pacific Source my health plan. Jack learned that Pacific Source provides members with support beyond healthcare. In Jack's case, we got him in touch with the local food bank.

[Danielle Ireland]

You guys do that?

[Pacific Source Health Plan Narrator]

Yes, we do, Jack. Pacific Source Health Plan.