← Don't Cut Your Own Bangs
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- [00:00]
A
Before we start today, I want to pause for a moment. This is a space that's always been about offering levity, curiosity and community, making room for our big feelings without getting swallowed by them. And that is still true. We're going to keep laughing here. We're going to keep breathing. And I also don't want to pretend that what's happening around the world or in our country isn't affecting us. What many people are witnessing right now in Minnesota is scary and overwhelming. And alongside that fear, we are also seeing something else. We're seeing people show up for each other, neighbors supporting neighbors, and small acts of care and kindness that truly matter. Whenever things feel this big, when emotions feel loud or hard to hold, I have learned that putting my feelings somewhere really helps. Even one small grounded action, it reminds me that I'm not powerless, that I'm a part of something bigger and I'm connected to something that is still possible for good. If you're feeling that way too, I'll share a resource here in the show notes or if you're watching, you can view on this screen and just take a screen grab and you can learn more about how to help if that feels right to you. No pressure, just an option. Okay. Thank you for being here. Take a breath with me. And now let's get to the episode.
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B
Hello.
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A
Hello, this is Danielle Ireland and you are listening to Don't Cut yout Own Bangs. I am absolutely thrilled to be sitting here and introducing to you a first time guest, longtime friend, I can feel it. And you're going to want her to be in your corner too. Dr. Erica Bove. Let me tell you a little bit about Dr. Erica. She is a double board certified OB GYN and reproductive endocrinologist. She's a physician at the University of Vermont who is about to go into and leap and launch a huge new chapter in her life. And I don't want to spoil it because we're going to talk about it in this episode, but all you need to know is she's dedicated a lot of years, a lot of time and the better part of her adult life doing what she does professionally. And she's making a massive shift and one that I think is going to help heal and benefit just, I hope, hundreds and thousands of women. And whether you decide that you are on a fertility journey, whether you've had kids and you're baby making years are behind you or you just know in your heart having children isn't on your to do list, wherever you fall in that, I just want you to know you are welcome to this conversation and there's going to be a tremendous amount of benefit for you. The things that we talk about here, though, they could be specific in many ways, given her work and her specialty. The stories and the takeaways are universal. So welcome and let me continue to tell you a little bit more about Dr. Erica Bove. She has a keen interest in marrying an evidence based approach with intuitive knowing. And that is the theme that is going to stay consistent throughout this entire conversation. What does it mean to marry information science, Western medicine with the wisdom of our bodies? And she handles that in such a beautiful way I don't think that we've ever really done before. On the podcast, she empowers high achieving women to build their families with confidence, self compassion and community. Her mission is to heal and support the healers and create a legacy that she's proud of. I mean, if that doesn't get you excited for this episode, I don't know what will. But I have something else to add for you. This episode, not only is it filled with tangible resources, clear takeaways, things that you can actively start to implement today and tomorrow, what it also includes, which is where I feel like the magic of this podcast is, is it's not just offering you expert hot takes or hearing someone share their expertise. What Erica also does is she lets us see the tender, imperfect human behind all of her credentials, which there are many. She also has a podcast. She has a flourishing coaching business. She's a mother of two. Like, she's done a lot. And so I don't think anybody can help us speak with more authority on the topic of what does it mean to honor the wisdom of your body and also understand the science to the best of our understanding as it exists today. This is a space and a conversation where the head and the heart meet in such a beautiful way. But her don't cut your own bang moment, which is the last question of the interview, is one of the most tender, loving and real that I've heard in a really long time. There's lots of things to look forward to all the way to the end. Thank you for being here. I'm excited for you to get to know Dr. Erica Bove. I want to give a shout out to a friend of the podcast, Dr. Tasha Faruqi. She was an incredible guest that I had an opportunity to connect with last year. And because of the friendship that she has with the podcast and with me, she made this connection with Dr. Erica Bove at a medical conference. Thank you Tasha, for this gorgeous introduction. It's just this, this community just feels like the gift that keeps on giving. I cannot wait for you to jump into this conversation with us. I want to hear from you. So put in your AirPods, go on a walk, wherever you're listening. However you're hearing this conversation, I'm excited for you to take it all in, get ready to sit back, relax and enjoy. Dr. Erica Bove, if you've been listening to this podcast and you've thought to yourself, dang, I really want to do some deep diving. I want to ask myself some bold questions, but I don't know where to start or I'm ready, but I just need someone to help hold my hand through the process. I have a tool for you called the Treasure Journal. It is a seven part guided journal that is infused with and informed by my therapy practice. There are sentence stems so you never have to feel stuck looking at a blank page. You never have to wonder where to start. There are stories to help remind you that you're not alone in this process and to kick off some of the inspired creative thinking that really gets the healing process going. And also there's lots of blank space in the back if you think, okay, I loved answering this question, but I want to take it further. There's space for you to make that practice your own. You're welcome to visit the link in the show notes for the Treasure Journal and you can grab your copy today. Ah, Dr. Erica Bove, welcome. Welcome to don't cut your own bangs. I. I'm going to say it, but I've already said it. I am so grateful for this time with you and for everyone listening and watching to get to share this time and space with you too. So, yeah, thank you for being here.
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B
Absolutely. It's mutual. And thank you so much for having me. I cannot wait for our conversation.
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A
Yes. So let's jump in. You have a background in endocrinology and infertility, so you are. You're a specialist. You're a double threat, triple threat now because you're a coach and there's so many facets not only to your expertise, but into the healing that you want to bring into the people that you like, the community that you want to serve. So I just want to jump in there first if we can kind of talk about the science of what you do, because I then want to get into more of the intuitive pieces of what you do, which seems to be more of what you want to fold into your coaching practice. But would you mind just Giving myself and the listeners, through your own words, a little bit more context about your work as a physician and how that's sort of got you to here.
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B
Yeah, absolutely. So let's see. I think I wanted to be a doctor since I was, like, a little girl. I find notes that I had of what I wanted to do and probably influenced by my family, you know, like, my father's a neurologist, and we lived in a small town. And so seeing his role in the community, I think, was very meaningful. Like, always on that path, right? I was like, okay, you know, med school. Like, let's be pre med. I also had other interests, but my laser focus was on getting to medical school. And I thought that I was going to medical school to cure the world of eating disorders, actually, because I was a competitive runner and, like, found myself with an eating disorder in high school and college and was able to work through that. And so I was like, you know what? Like, I'm gonna marry these two passions of mine, and I'm gonna maybe have a center. Like, I don't know how this is gonna be, but I'm gonna heal the world of this problem. But I'll tell you, like, I got into medical school, and I started to do my rotations, and psychiatry was not my thing. Like, I was like, my body would not. I was tired. I was, like, maybe borderline depressed, you know, but then I got to my OBGYN rotation, and I was, like, not even looking at the clock. I was inspired. I liked working with my hands. Like, the pace was more my. My style. And so I thought to myself, okay, it was like, kind of one of the first times I listened to my body and was like, what is my body asking for? And it was like, more of this and less of that. And so I stacked my rotations to where I was doing more of the ob GYN stuff. Absolutely loved it, and matched in a residency program in New York City and kind of had an inkling that I wanted to do, like, the infertility stuff. I'm going to go to New York City. I'm going to spend this four years in residency, do any research I need to do to match into these competitive, you know, infertility programs. And then, lo and behold, I matched and did three more years of the fellowships and just absolutely have loved the work. It feels like my calling. And the fact that I'm able to help beautiful, strong, powerful women build their families is just such a gift.
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A
I have long since envied people who grew up knowing what they wanted to do or be, and then pursued that path. I felt. I've heard Elizabeth Gilbert talk about people who are jackhammers and people who are hummingbirds. She described herself as a jackhammer. She was like, I knew I wanted to write. I made a declaration to God and to the universe that I was called to be a writer. And she's obviously pursued a writing career and is thriving in it. I had senses like you, when you were starting to talk about how your body was experiencing the field of medicine you were wanting to go into. That sense was stronger in me than knowing what I wanted to do. I just know this feels good. This doesn't feel good. And that led me to feel more like a hummingbird. Like, well, I want a little dabble of this and a little dash of that. I love that for you. And I find I'm always really attracted to people who have that sense of them, because it sounds like what you knew then, and maybe through the lens of what you're doing now, you are still following that sense, even though the breadcrumb trail you had from when you.
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B
Were a little girl.
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A
I think that's okay.
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B
Yeah, I know. And I think if I were to extrapolate out a little bit more, even more than being a doctor, which I, like I said, I think was heavily influenced by, I've always known I was a healer. And. And that is the thread that I think that is, you know, continuing to. To really get me through, as right now in my body, clinical medicine is not feeling the same way that it used to. And with that, I think, comes a struggle with identity. And, like, you know, I will say, as I was. I've been an attending physician for about 10 years now. And so, you know, as I was seeing my patients, I was very disheartened with how I was able to actually help them in the context of the Western medical system that we have. And that's really why I formed my coaching practice, was to say, you know, how can I actually reach my people? How can I actually heal them? Instead of just delivering like, this is your diagnosis. These your treatment options in a very compassionate way. But that was working. People were like, their heads were spinning. They weren't able to make empowered choices. They. They weren't getting pregnant. And so I thought to myself, okay, if my job is not just to be a doctor into my coat, but it's to, like, heal the people and build their families. Like, I need to offer more than what I'm doing.
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A
Well, so I. A thread that I can really relate to. There is you. I have over time started to understand the, with the emotional experience or the embodiment when I'm really in frustration with really in irritation. It feels similar to like this need to shed. Like I just gotta get something off. And I don't know exactly what that is, but it feels like a shedding. And I. That experience is always the step before a change that needs to be made. And it sounds like you were feeling constrained and confined within the medical container that you were operating in and you were wanting to shed and expand. And I hope you don't mind that I jump to this part next. You shared with me right as we were pressing record that you resigned yesterday.
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B
Well, I say it was December 30th. December 30th.
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A
Yes.
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B
That's first two days ago. But it's all, all extremely current.
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A
Yes.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Yes. So we are with you right on that growth edge of saying goodbye and closing one chapter and saying hello and fully opening, embracing this new one that I hope everybody listening who either is in a family planning fertility journey or is adjacent to, ahead of or supporting someone who's also on that journey, that this is an incredible resource for them. And also too, I just want to say for anybody listening who knows you don't want children, I don't want you to turn this episode off. Please stay with us. Because there's so much more to Erica and there's so much more to this conversation about listening to your body, trusting your inner knowing, but also like blending the science with is to the best of our understanding, like this is also about like medical advocacy. Like there's so many threads that are going to come through this conversation beyond getting pregnant and having a baby. But that is the foundation. But that is not, not limited to that. So I just want to forecast that for anybody who might thinking this doesn't apply to them, because it does. It does. Yeah.
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B
Yes.
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A
Okay. I want to speak a little bit to, or rather open up the conversation to let you speak a little bit to the listener who is a capable, driven, quietly exhausted woman who is crushing her goals, who is highly intelligent, who is silently suffering and struggling because something isn't happening with her body in the way she wants it to. And that's really where you meet people. Absolutely.
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B
So I think the first thing to understand is that for high achieving women, the equation, if you will, of what's worked to get people successful is not going to work in the fertility space. And like we're supposed to be good at everything that we do assumption is if we just work A little harder. If we go down the Google rabbit hole a little bit farther, that we're going to figure it out and we're going to sort of force this to happen almost. And so the first thing to understand is calming the nervous system, connecting with the deepest why, really understanding why that desire is in your heart to have a little one, right? That's the first thing to understand. Deep, deep desire and that deep motivation getting into the body. Because we're also cerebral and this analysis paralysis that we have and this like just rumination about all of this, we have to drop into the body, that's sort of the next thing. And in a safe space, right? We have to create that safety. And that's when we can start to say, okay, like what is my body actually asking for? For some people it's treatment, for some people it's not treatment. Right.
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A
I want to get a little granular in that. Asking the body what it wants, what it's asking for. That question has an esoteric, almost spiritual spin to it. And I have in sessions with my own clients, you know, it's like, where does your anxiety live in your body? Where do you experience? What age is it? What is it maybe trying to tell you that you're not listening to? Those are all questions that I love asking. But for this particular type of woman, this like high achieving and I'll say too, I, because I work with men and women, that type of question, it's like, well, just tell me what to do, tell me what to say. I'm very logical, critical thinker, solutions focused. Just give me the steps. And those questions usually create like a conversational record scratch. So how do you invite that to somebody who thinks they're coming to a doctor to get medical advice? And you're like, what is the wisdom of your body wanting you to know?
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B
Yeah. And you know, this is something I was taught to do. And so I'm so grateful to my teachers for teaching me how to feel my feelings. And I think this appeals to many people who are very analytical. And I'm like, our thoughts, our feelings are data. They are data. They are teaching us things about us that we need to know. And we in trauma, I mean trauma is intimately linked with infertility. We store things in our body that we don't even realize. And so how can we reconnect the mind and the body in a way that allows us to move forward with this journey? And you know, it's not about trying harder, it's about receiving and connecting and sort of helping people to start to feel their feelings is one of the first things we do. Because when we resist a feeling, when we avoid a feeling, those feelings stick around and they come out in strange ways, right? That irritability, that. That frustration, that sort of disconnection, withdrawal. And when we start to say, oh, I think there's shame living in my body, just like you, I say, okay, tell me about the shame. Where is it physically? What color is it? What texture is it? What does it feel like? Can we breathe until we do breath work? Can we breathe into that emotion and see just if it changes just a little bit, if it just can loosen its grip just a little bit? And then when we do this discipline of feeling the full range of the human emotions, if we're in the fertility clinic and we say we get a negative result or say we are with our partners and we have a disagreement about the next steps, like, we're like, oh, that's just disappointment. I understand disappointment. I can feel that. Oh, that's not. I don't mean to minimize. I think that's just shame, but, oh, hello, my old friend. Hi, shame. Tell me what you have to teach me today about this situation. And when we can really drop into our bodies and take the 90 seconds it takes to feel a feel and let it go, then we can get the clarity of what we need to do next from the emotional standpoint. And then there's the science, too. But we have to feel safe in our bodies. We have to process the feelings before we can even begin to think about the confidence in the treatment plan.
- [18:48]
A
I love anytime something that I already think I know is iterated and reiterated in a way that feels familiar and new. So what I heard and what you just said reminds me so much of acceptance and commitment therapy that first we have to allow the feeling to exist, acknowledge the feeling's existence, and then feel it. And that is so much easier said than done. But that one, two, three punch is when I think, when people sort of collectively talk about doing the work, that is the work. And the benefit of that is when you can see, name, and know your experience it, then you are in the driver's seat. I always think of, visually that I'm definitely going to be dating myself. So I apologize, you know, younger.
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B
Younger listeners.
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A
But there's a music video by Alanis Morissette where she's playing different characters and they're all on a road trip. But I love that visual of. There's a version of me behind the wheel. There's a version of me in the backseat, like, that's a terrible backseat driver that's criticizing everything the driver's doing. There's a version of me in the backseat that's like whining and bored and uncomfortable and hungry and just wants it to be over and always has to pee. There's a version of me and like, there's all these different versions of me. And this is now talking about parts work or internal family systems. But yes, I love that all those different parts of you have a voice and they want to be acknowledged. And even just acknowledging that they're there, I find it dials the volume down of whatever they're screaming at you by like half instantly. And then to your point, the next right step almost reveals itself without much efforting behind it. But I think what we love to do is put the doing before and then just hope that we can kind of trudge through and push through. And that never feels.
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B
It's almost like an unlearning of what has worked in the past and then a relearning of what this is. And I always say to my clients, I'm like, we need to thank the feelings. Obviously, if it's authentic, like if it's anxiety or if it's this really protective instinct, like, say thank you for trying to protect me. I've got me now. Thank you for being here. I see you, I see you're trying to help. And I'm the wise leader of my inner world. I've got this situation. I don't need you to be so loud anymore. You can still be on my bus. But I need you to pipe down right now. Cause I've got this.
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A
Well, I mean, it's like a kid throwing a tantrum in a car seat. It's like you want to acknowledge their existence, but I'm not going to let my child drive.
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B
Exactly.
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A
Like my. My four year old should not be behind the wheel of the car. Even though every time we turn the car off, she loves getting in that driver's seat.
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B
She loves it. That's.
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A
As a mother of two and a human on the planet, one thing I know for sure is that we have big failings and we don't always know what to do with them. This is why I wrote a children's book called Wrestling a Walrus for Little People with big Feelings. And I'll also add a subheading for the big people raising little people with big feelings. I am confronted with my own big emotions every time I feel out of control. Control or my child is having a tantrum. Or they're just not listening. It's hard. It is so hard. And it's so much easier to say than it is to embody and practice. What do we do with these combustible emotions? The heart of that process, that question, and how we come together to find a way to do it is all wrapped up in my sweet little children's book called Wrestling a Walrus. I love this little book. It's a scorpion sweet, tender story. It's illustrated beautifully, it's filled with a lot of heart, and it's rooted in not only my experience as a parent, but my work as a therapist. Hop on over to the Show Notes. Grab your copy. It's available on Amazon.com, barnes and noble.com thanks so much for listening. And now let's get back to the episode. So, an experience I want to share and get your take on. And then as well as a question I want to ask, because the thing I'm curious about is the gap you saw and the need you're trying to fill and the one that you felt compelled to fill, where this is what science, Western medicine, my expertise and training. And then there is this gap, but there's also these other resources. And it's almost like you've created a bridge or you are serving as a bridge between these two. I have my own personal experience of deciding that I wanted to get pregnant. I wrestled with that for a really long time because I wasn't sure if the idea was mine or if I was conditioned to want it. And so I. And that's. I think that's the constant lesson in relearning for me is bringing the conversation in my head into my body and letting my body be a part of the conversation, letting my heart be a part of the conversation. Because in my head, I could pro list, pro con list anything to death. And that's exhausting and tiresome and not fun. But I felt this. It was almost like this crunch of these four walls coming in. One wall was biological clock. Because I was having this conversation around 31.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And of course, once you. Once you turn 30, it feels like I live in the Midwest. I turned 30, I'm married. And everyone was like, TikTok. That was exhausting. But so there's that factor, the biological age factor. And by the way, I was a geriatric pregnancy both times that I. Well, actually, when I miscarried, I was a geriatric pregnancy. And then I had two beautiful babes, all. All geriatric.
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B
Which way is that, Bill? Can I Just call out that. That's a billing term. Like, that's not even a real thing. Like, that's just. We just need to, like, take that out of our vocabulary.
- [24:18]
A
My doctor, my OB gyn. God love her, because I do love her. She is a gem. I didn't realize how lucky I had it until I started hearing other women's stories and experiences. But I think doctors like you, like Dr. Katie Lynn, I could sing their praises forever. But anyway, she. She had to say that term so that I wouldn't be shocked by it if I saw it. But then she very quickly nullified and, like, she contextualized it, but it was hard to get it out of me. Totally. So anyway, I digress. So felt the pressure of that, and then I just entered into a new field. So right before we decided to start trying in the, you know, that sense of the word, I just graduated with my therapy degree and started working in my private practice. And so I want to build a life for myself. I feel like I've just declared my flag and stuck my stake in the ground. My age is coming up, there's pressures from the world, and I didn't even know if I wanted or didn't want it. And all of those things converging. And then once my husband and I started trying because of the way that all of the things that are wrong with such education. In school, the fear was, you know, if you look at a penis for too long, you could get pregnant. And so I thought, okay, we're gonna lift the shield and everything's gonna go. And it. It didn't. And it played with my mind. I'm happy to talk in more detail about how I knew I wanted to get pregnant, what that experience was. Not trying to gatekeep anything, but just for the sakes of this conversation. So anyone listening, please feel free to email me if you want an episode where I flush that out more. But once I decided to get pregnant, it took about eight months to get pregnant. The first time, I was working way too much. I had no idea that I was. I knew burnout as a concept, but I didn't put myself in that concept. I was somebody who was in a helping profession that was absolutely not taking my own medicine. I was completely blind to my own. Over functioning, overworking, over caffeinating, overdoing self. I wasn't making any space for my body or this journey. And then miscarried at 12 weeks. The whole process rocked my world. I did record an episode where I talked about that in detail. If anybody wants to listen. I'm happy to relink it. Yeah.
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B
And I just have to say I've gone through it, too. And for anybody listening who's had this experience, it's terrible. And you're not alone. And thank you, Daniel, for sharing. I wish that it had not been.
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A
Part of your journey. Right. So very hard. Yeah.
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B
Thank you.
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A
The meaning that I make from it and where it continues to shine light for me, in addition to all of the pain, is the opportunity to share it and remind people they're not alone in it. So it adds value to my life to talk about it. Thank you. I received that and thank you so much. Then once we decided that we were going to continue to try, which was a whole conversation, and I had to let my body heal that grief and that experience was a real pivot for me in how I looked at my body, how I looked at my work, and how I wanted to operate this body through my life. And so what I realized then that is also kind of bookending with the stage of life I'm in now was I was living so compartmentalized and fractured. This is who I am in this space. This is who I am in this space. Rather than integrating, I am all of me, all of the time, and I'm always carrying me with me. And so that more holistic, I'll say, more well rounded view of myself and how I wanted to be brought me to acupuncture. So I was simultaneously starting to think about fertility treatments because I. Nothing was medically with my husband or myself. Nothing. Nothing was off in terms of what they saw or what they knew.
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B
Everything checks out on paper. Doesn't mean there's not a problem. Right, Right.
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A
But, like, from through the lens that, like all my doctors were saying, there's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with your husband. His swimmers are swimming and your eggs are egging and everything should be fine. So. But I was making all of these other appointments while also I began acupuncture. And it just. It was humbling how much I thought I knew that I didn't really know, and the. How much I wasn't really listening to my body. And it. It created, like, a whole shift in my life.
- [28:24]
B
Oh. I mean, this is a common pattern that I see, and I. I'm grateful that you were able to do it on your own. You know, some people are not. And I think to go back to that younger version of herself who was doing what she was taught is the right thing to, you know, get your degree, work harder, serve the people be a good wife. Like, you were checking all those boxes of, like, the good girl. And like, what people who are successful do. And that does not equate to having a fertile life. For some people, they're able to get pregnant. In that context. I understand things happen, but for so many people, there's a block on the process, and it's almost like there's no space. Like, we talk about decluttering our closets and our drawers and everything. I'm a single person, right? Like, I'm interested in, like, the dating world. And they say, if you are interested in dating, let's use that analogy. Start to buy things in pairs. Start to clean out your closet so that there's room. I bought a set of, like, two chairs. Cause I was like, oh, that sounds like, lovely. And it's like, not just one chair, but it's two. And I think the same thing applies to when people are trying to get pregnant. I say, imagine yourself as that pregnant person and that new mom. Does your life now have the space to hold that? And if it doesn't, we need to find a way to create that. Maybe it's leaving a job. Maybe it's. Maybe it's finding time to meditate and spend time in nature and create creativity. Actually, creativity is one of the threads. Once people start to get creative, this process is going to happen soon. Like, I just. I see it. Yeah.
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A
Martha Beck wrote the book the Way of Integrity, which I recommend to people all the time, but the one that she just published after that, anxiety is in the title, but the title itself is escaping me. But what she says in that book, and I've actually seen her lecture on it in person, and it just. I can't say it enough because I'm still practicing it. The opposite of anxiety is not calm. It is creativity. When we're pursuing peace and calm and serenity and Zen and all those things. And I love mindfulness and I love meditation. But one of the quickest and most direct ways you can dial down the volume of anxiety in your mind and in your life is to engage in something creative. And that can be literally anything. But I love that you said that because you are creating your body. Exactly.
- [30:35]
B
And I think that when you did that, then things started to happen. And that is the pattern that I see for so many people. But it's uncomfortable. I would. I just have to call out, like, it's really uncomfortable to step back or to feel like you're not pulling your weight or you're not doing what your degree says you should do or what society says. And there is a lot of counterculturalness to this. And so that's where we have to tune into our bias and say, I know society says one thing about how this should look. You know, in my community, we normalize all these things, which is, I think, helpful. But that's where the wisdom of the body comes in. Because it's like, okay, my nervous system doesn't work this way. I need to open up the channels. And with that comes that reduction in hyper vigilance. We started to talk before about why, what was I seeing? And it was, you know, people. We were in a conversation just like this, right? But like, I could see that my words weren't landing. I could see the anxiety that people were maybe absorbing 10% of what I was saying. I slowed my voice and I checked for understanding. And I tried every single thing. I knew what to do. And I realized, like, until their nervous system is in a better place, until they can connect with themselves at the deepest level, this is just not going to happen. Can I, can I share a brief story?
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A
Yeah.
- [31:52]
B
So I was taking care of a woman recently. And you know, unfortunately, this woman had a long history of trauma and she had done a number of inseminations without success and even did in vitro fertilization without success. And I was the one who did her transfer. A lot went into it. I remember meeting with her in the office afterwards. Like her arms were crossed. She was shut down. She was really defeated and just really in a negative place. And she said, I don't trust anybody. I don't trust the world. I really want to be a mom more than anything, but I just, I don't understand why this isn't working, but it should be working and it's not. And I, I'm high achieving. Like, I don't know what else to do. And so I remember we had the heart to heart since then. That was one conversation. She came back for another conversation before her next transfer. And I could just feel the hyper vigilance. I could feel the negative energy again, no blame, but. But it was, but it was a situation where I just could feel in my own body that we had to break through this shield to be able to, to let this happen for her. So we met closer to the time of her embryo transfer. And I said, I know you've been through so much and, you know, if we can just rack open the door to possibility, if we can just say, you know, I know that a lot's happened, I know that you've lost trust in us, in the system. Like, I need some connection here for this to work. I believe it can, but we have to. I need you to reduce the hypervigilance. I need us to be able to find a way through. And she said, well, I have a hard time trusting the team, quite honestly. I'm a person who will push, push, push until I get what I want. But I do inherently trust that my body is going to do this. And I said to her, I said, I believe that's enough. I think we should move forward. So I was the one on call when her embryo chancellor came. And I. I felt the negative energy in the room. I could feel energy. That's part of my empath nature. And almost as if I was in an epic battle. I remember I got the speculum in. I did the cleaning. I put the catheter transfer in. I got the ember in the right. And it was almost like there's, like, epic battles where you feel like there's the sword and then you see, like, all the things receding around you. Empath, nervous. Felt. I was, like, holding it, holding it. And, like, I felt it recede. And in the room, I knew. I was like, I get chill thinking about it. I'm like, this is going to work. This is the one that's going to work. Because she's opened herself up to it. This is the one. And would you believe a week and a half later, as we do, we checked the pregnancy hormone level. It was great. We checked it again. It was great. And my whole team was, like, amazed. They're like, you did it. And I'm like, we did it. We did it. Me, I tried before, before we had broken through that shield. But there had to be an element of trust. And, you know, I always say it's the best case scenario if you trust your doctor. Not everybody can do that, especially if people have a lot of medical trauma. But if you can open the door of some belief, some possibility, some trust in the body that it will do what it's supposed to do, that's when I see the magic start to happen. So I think that's a really good example of the energy aspect.
- [34:56]
A
I love that, and I'm so grateful that you're inviting that component in. And a correlation that I made, as you were describing it, is this idea of controlling the body versus listening and trusting the body. And I can also see how that relates to the work of eating disorder recovery and this nature of the world feels out of control. I feel out of control. In the world. And I can control this, this container, I can control its size, what it consumes, how often it moves, that I can control which. And of course, like anybody who is living with or in recovery from or works in eating disorder, I know there's different types, and that's not a blanket statement of truth for every type. But for this conversation about trusting the body and feeling safe enough in your body to trust that it has the wisdom that you need, I find that so I could never hear enough stories like that. And that's honestly, truly, selfishly why the podcast feels not only in service in ways that fulfill my heart for the community, but also it serves me. I need to fill up my days, my mind, my life with as many stories like that of, you know, I'm moving through the world, doing the best I can. And then there is this unnamable, unknowable magic that lifts something off. Like I need to be in touch with that in some way. I love that. Thank you for that story. That was beautiful.
- [36:25]
B
I think it's that combination. So my coaching practice is called Love and Science. We start with the love we feel. We start with the safety. I help people love themselves, which I know you do in your practice as well. Right. That, that self compassion, it has to start there. And then we bring in the scientific knowledge. You're this many years old, this is how long you've been trying and this is what your testing shows. And I find that when we start with the love and the safety, that's when that information can really land and people deeply understand what's going on with their bodies. That's when they can start to make the empowered choices because they're able to absorb it, because they're able to ask higher level questions. And there's the space. Right, that word again. Space. The space to be able to do that. And it's not always, oh, you need ibs. You know, sometimes it's. I have people who take a step back from IVF and conceive with inseminations. I have people who conceive in between their IVF cycles. If they take time off after years of trying. It's an energetic shift, I think is the important thing. And unless we can help people with that piece of it, then we're missing the point.
- [37:28]
A
So I want to. How would anybody listening who, if there was something that they could begin to do, they're relating to what you're saying, they're excited by what they're hearing in this conversation and they're feeling out of control or they're inflicting a lot of self blame in these silent conversations in their head. I think I'm referencing Elizabeth Gilbert here when she says that sometimes my mind is like a bad neighborhood that I found myself walking through alone at night and so wanting to help make the mental space a friendlier place to be. When we are in those spaces where we feel out of control and we're being so hard on ourselves, what would be a. A step in or like, how can we get a foothold in to dropping into that trust that we're talking about?
- [38:19]
B
Yeah, that's such a great question. I think one of the best ways is to get a guide. I have this course that's available for people, but I. The easiest place to start would be to get the Mindful Self compassion workbook by Dr. Kristin Neff, because it is a very interactive workbook. It starts to introduce the concepts of self compassion. It goes through the mindfulness, the self kindness, the common humanity in ways that I think people can really like, relate to and be like, oh, I'm not alone in this. It makes sense that self judgment, like, oh, I just am not handling this well enough. Really applying that workbook to the fertility situation I think can be a really great place to start to become acquainted with mindful self compassion. There is a lot of resistance I've seen, and myself included, when I first started doing this work of like, well, I'm going to be soft or I'm going to lose my edge. And she talks about that in her workbook as well. Trying on a dress or a blazer or something, a new pair of shoes. And if it fits, if it starts to work, then we do more of that thing. So it's just, I think of it as, this is a thought experiment. This is, this is just trying this on. And if this self compassion is resonating, then lean in and see what it might have to offer you. But I really do think the best way is to invest in yourself and start to work with a guide. Because this is deep stuff. And sometimes some deep things come up as we're uncovering this, when we're learning to live a different way. And so that combination I think is really powerful.
- [39:43]
A
That is great. And it reminds me too of this idea that we spend so many minutes, hours in a day being hard on ourselves. That drill sergeant is really screaming at us throughout the day that why not offer a drop of compassion? It's like a drop in the bucket by comparison. And one of the things that I like to remind clients that I work with and myself, I'm including myself in this. That so often what we're responding to is something that feels familiar, not something that is wanted. And so the more we can embody the experiences and the more we can really tap into what feels like warmth, what feels like an opening, what feels like a lightning versus what feels like a constricting or a tightening or a binding or an et. There's such a difference between feeling charged and tight, like bracing yourself to get hit versus feeling open and receptive. But again, what feels familiar often gets conflated or confused with what is wanted. This feels like home to me. Okay, well, did you like your home environment? Would you want your home environment for your child? Having my kids has brought a tremendous amount. It's rather called forth and volunteered me in ways I didn't think I was ready for, to do my own inner child healing work. Because we carry ourselves with us through every stage of life. So it all just feels like one big blob. But seeing a four year old and imagining, oh my God, I would never say the things I'm saying to myself, to her. And I actually have for point of reference a photo of myself at four that I keep.
- [41:20]
B
Oh, that's so beautiful.
- [41:21]
A
Thank you. I keep her on my desk so that when I'm being hard on myself, I'm being hard on her too. I. We can com as as smart as we are compartmentalizing ourselves that way, even if it's possible, it's not sustainable. I wouldn't say it's a great goal.
- [41:35]
B
No. Another way that I get buy in from my people about this notion of self compassion is that the data actually shows that people's performance actually improves when we're self compassionate. And that's the interesting thing I would say that shouldn't be the motivation. Oh, I'm doing the self compassion thing because I'm gonna perform better at my job, et cetera. But I think if people have that worry that it's gonna make them soft, that it's gonna make them lose their edge. The inner coach is so much stronger, better than the inner critic. And so that's what we're doing. Right. We're saying, okay, we all have a very strong inner critic that helped us at one point in our lives, helped us survive. Yes. And, and we can transition that through mindful self compassion to an inner coach who's. You've got this, you're doing your best, great job. What's your next growth edge? Those are such different questions than like, you suck You're a horrible person. Why do you even try? Everybody else is doing it better than you are. You're not doing it right. All those different things that we say to ourselves. And so the research shows that the areas in our brain that are linked to success, that those areas actually do better when we're introducing this concept. And so that is helpful. It just kind of adds up. Helps me feel safe of like, okay, I'm going to try this on and I'm going to gain. I'm not going to lose.
- [42:47]
A
And when people are afraid, creativity shuts down. It limits your capacity to access all the parts of our brain that very smart, high functioning people like to think. It's like I'm all frontal lobe all the time. Not if you're living in terror or constantly terrorizing yourself.
- [43:00]
B
We make high level decisions when we're in that fight or flight state. Infertility is a constant threat. I'd say yes, if you're being chased by a bear, you want that sympathetic response. But do you want to be chased by a bear for like five years daily? You know what I'm saying? Like, that's not good. And I find that when people are able to relax into the process in a safe space, to trust their bodies, to trust their teams, to allow this process to happen, that's when the adrenals calm down. That's when the sympathetic nervous system tones down and that's when we start to see that's working. The hyper vigilance is counterproductive. We, we shouldn't judge ourselves for that, but we should just understand there's something we can do about that. Those tools are here.
- [43:42]
A
Yes. I, there's so many things that you said that I want to re. Highlight too that you didn't say it this way, but I. The language of essentially emotions are energy in motion and they always have something to tell you. Their emotions always have something to tell you. But that's where I think bringing the mind and the heart and the body together again, that's your science and your intuition and your coaching practice together. That we're not trying to encourage anyone to abandon any part of yourself for the service of another. Because if we're all feelings all the time, then we're wasting this supercomputer that we, that we have. That's an incredible, incredible tool. It's incredible part of us too, but so many of us want to just operate from the chin up and completely like vote the body off the island. The other thing that I, I think the language that I like to Introduce when somebody is in this pocket of how do I begin this process? Or I thought I knew how to do it. But there's this one part of my life where I just keep hitting wall after wall after wall. I call it compassionate curiosity. Some of that is language I borrowed from Brene Brown. I've also borrowed a little bit from Byron.
- [44:50]
B
Katie.
- [44:51]
A
But there's four questions that I love to introduce. Cause I find that I feel more open, more receptive, and I'm more able to trust the information that comes to me when I'm in a curious state as opposed to a critical state, or if I'm trying to be certain. The more locked into certainty I am, the more the controlling part of me is engaged. And then I'm not open to anything. But the first thing is, is that true? Is that true? That thought you have about yourself in the world? Is that true? And then the follow up, can you absolutely know with a hundred percent certainty or sometimes raise the stakes with, would you bet a million dollars on the truth of that statement? Is there anything truer that you could find or that you could say? And then you start to question what you feel so certain about. Because a belief is just a thought you keep thinking over and over. And when the beliefs you have start to erode, that's incredibly vulnerable. But that's also the rocket fuel for transformation and growth. So I can already feel myself like wanting to go down so many other threads of conversation with you. It just means I need to have you back. I do want to make time for us to dive into your don't cut your own bang moment because you teased out a little bit of it for me. And I want to give that thread as much space as it needs because I think it's going to be really good and incredibly relatable. But I don't want you to feel pressure about the stakes here, but I really would love to hear your don't cut your own bangles.
- [46:16]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So. Well, I actually did cut my own bangs when I was 7. Heather was delivering my youngest sibling and my father had three of us at home. He was on the phone. I said, dad, can I cut my bangs? And he said yes. He was saying yes to the person on the phone, not to me. I'm gonna also preface this by saying it was the night before Easter Sunday and we are a Catholic family. And that was interesting. Photos, photos. So I like literally cut my own bangs in this very diagonal fashion. And it was just a very memorable seven year old experience. But let's talk about that, like, adult moment of not cutting my vein. I was on the straight and narrow pathway. Like, I didn't take any time off between college and med school. I went to med school, and I think I was told I was going to be infertile. So there's that. And I think I started to feel my biological clock ticking, and I was like, okay, about to start residency, need to find a husband, and wait.
- [47:08]
A
You were told you were going to be infertile?
- [47:10]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [47:11]
A
Right. Before you go into this field of medicine, you were told you were right.
- [47:14]
B
In the middle of medical school. I was told that I would be infertile. And it was like this male doctor who I think was, like, the opposite of how you should give bad news. And so I learned a lot from that, but it was very disconcerting. And it was relating to PCOS and hypothalamic gonorrhea. And, like, knowing what I know now, like, I would never tell a patient those things, but it planted the seed in my mind, like, if you want to have kids, like, you better get on this, because it might be really hard. That's more than being a doctor. I've always wanted to be a mom. And so I hadn't really even dated that much at that point because I was, like, always so focused on my achievements. And I was at a Good Friday service, and I met this guy in the back of a church. I was there for the service. He was there for the free food. We connected. I know we connected, and then somehow things. We fell in love, like, very quickly. His mom got sick somewhere in the process with melanoma. And we were engaged at, like, 10 months, and we were married a year later, before I even graduated medical school. And I was, like, in my early 20s time, and, like, we were doing this whole thing because he was a graduate chemistry student, I was a medical student, and I knew that I'd be starting my internship somewhere. I met him in my second, third year of med school, when you're starting the process of, like, where might I apply? So we spent an inordinate amount of time being, like, he wanted to go to medical school. Okay, Medical schools for him in this geographic area, residencies for me. We had all these elaborate whiteboards and everything to plan this. We got married my fourth year of med school. And I will say I had seen some red flags along the way. Like, there was a Valentine's Day where he had an outburst, and we were crying. I was crying, and then we were late to the restaurant. And then, like, the actual Night before my wedding, I like, didn't sleep at all. I cried the entire night. I was like up crying and my brain, I was like, oh, it's just because, like, I'm becoming a woman and an adult and this is a big deal and I'm in my childhood bed and. But I cried like, truly, like the whole night before my wedding. So we got married, we took a honeymoon, we went to Italy, we rented a villa in Tuscany, which on paper looks sounds wonderful, but I got there and we rented a car. There was road rage. I felt so lonely and I was just like, oh my God, what did I just do? Like, I just married this person. And I think we were so focused on, like, the logistics and getting married before his montage away and me potentially being infertile and all these things. I started to see sides of him, like immediately on the honeymoon where I was just like, what did I just do? But I was like, maybe it's just me and maybe it's my fourth year of med school and maybe blah, blah, blah, all the things. And intern year, I was just focusing on survival. So that went on. But I think the point is I did that thing which was like, got married, had the big wedding, so many people with my giant family. But immediately afterwards, like, really understood that it was going to be problematic for me.
- [50:09]
A
I would say everybody listening can relate to. You had an experience that didn't feel good, that didn't fit your narrative, so you had to make an explanation for it. Yep. You made allowances and explanations. And I just. What was coming up for me so strongly, it reminded me of when I lost my virginity, but it wasn't by my choice. It was somebody I was dating. It was assault. But I couldn't let myself see that at the time because it didn't fit the narrative of what it meant when somebody said I love you when it meant with your first. Your first boyfriend. It didn't fit that. And so my form of self protection was to make it fit. But of course, the wisdom of my body, my body knew that what was happening didn't feel good. My tears let me know this wasn't feeling good. Like my body was showing its revealing its truth to me, but I dissociated from it. Which again, I can say that. And by the way, I can talk about this so openly because I've done so much healing around it. So anybody listening, this is not something I'm taking lightly. It's just something I can hold lightly in my hand because it doesn't hold the weight it did once upon a time for me. But because so many of us, and I'll say women in particular, are trained to look outside of us for who and how we should be, not listening from within first. And so my experience was, well, this is what he's saying, and this is what I was told, and this is what I've learned, and this is what life and Disney has shown me. How can I take the play doh of this raw, horrible moment and just fit it, smash it in the mold of what I need it to be so that I can keep a story that feels better? And then it was two years later, I was in college, and I was in a much healthier relationship. I'd say probably my first healthy relationship. I remember it was when Kobe Bryant was being accused of assault, and that conversation was all over the place. Everybody was talking about it. I remember constantly feeling like I was overhearing people talking about that moment and had all of these big opinions about what assault was, what it wasn't, how it should look, how it does look, how it could look. We can insert fertility, we can insert motherhood, we can insert marriage. Like, insert a topic, but, like the bullets on the outline of that emotional thread. And it all came crashing down on me. The truth that I wasn't allowing myself to see. And then I felt it all two years after. And then there were all these waves of shame of, how did I not know I wasn't in touch with him anymore? I couldn't hold. Like, there was just. I had to hold all this experience, and I had nowhere to put it. And so it came out in all kinds of ways. And just to bring it back to your experience, I speak with women all the time who, on the day of their wedding, the first day of their honeymoon, have that inner knowing where they drop into, oh, no. And that is so much more common than I think anybody acknowledges. So I just want to thank you for being so open and vulnerable in that way. You wouldn't mind if we can go back to your story for a moment? How did you find your way out of that? Because you mentioned that you were single.
- [53:37]
B
Yeah, I am single now. So I was, like, when I was an intern, I was, what, 26 years old, and I was really just so focused on survival. I was working, like, a hundred hours a week, and he was a medical student. My first pregnancy was a miscarriage. We. Oh, my gosh, Danielle. We navigated. We had, like, a flight flood in our apartment. We live in New York City. And so, like, somebody two floors above and had a fire and all the water came crashing through the light fixture. So we had a flood, we had a fire, we got in a car accident, we got sued. Like all these different things that happened in the midst of this, like being his mom died. Like we just had so many hard things that happened in such a short period of time. And there was, it was truly just survival. You know, I had the miscarriage. I knew I wanted to have a family. I got pregnant my third year of residency with my older son Lincoln. And that pregnancy stayed. So then I was navigating new motherhood as a chief resident. And that's really when I think when we are married to people who have tendencies, I think that when the attention is on them, it's okay, right? Like it's, it's not okay. But the universe continues on. But when we have a child who then becomes at the center of that need and the other person gets pushed to the periphery because that little baby has needs, that was like a crisis really where it just seemed okay. How do we navigate this new dynamic and the, the cycle of power and abuse, right? The isolation and the verbal abuse and all those things. But. But even still I was in my mind like, oh, it's just because I'm in a resident, cuz we, you know, don't have a ton of family support close by. So then we moved to Michigan and then I got pregnant. Actually had infertility, but thankfully got pregnant pretty quickly after breastfeeding with my second son. And we had an au pair. We had all the things. And at the same time like I was just again it was getting worse and worse and just punching through doors and trying to hold it all together. As a fellow. Yes.
- [55:31]
A
You have, you had the capacity to jump through the hoops that he needed to feel like he was a whole person. Cuz he didn't know how to do that for the exact.
- [55:38]
B
Exactly. And so you know, got into therapy and like just doing everything I knew. But it wasn't really until we were out of training. Cause I was like if we just get through training and I'll do the math. Two years with him in medical school school, four years of residency, that's six years, three years of fellowship, that's nine years. And then it was in like year 10 and 11 of this journey where I thought things were going to get better once we had more money and more time and things actually got worse. That was really hard because I was like, oh, but we've reached that point where we're in our careers, we've got the house, we've got the things. Then the affair started. Then I was like, okay. So then we dove into marriage counseling about the affairs. And I say this actually with gratitude now. I didn't see it that way at the time, but I walked in from my final set of oral boards. We have so many boards to do what I do. Final set in Texas. And he was at the kitchen table and he said, there's something I need to say and the affairs are going to continue is what he said. He said, I either want an open marriage or a divorce. And we had a four year old and a two year old at the time. Then in eight months of marriage counseling, the best marriage counselor in Ann Arbor, like an hour and a half every Wednesday. And I thought we were making an improvement. But what I also noticed was that every single time the marriage counselor would say to him, how does that make you feel? He would say, I just have a blank. I just have a blank. I don't know how it makes me feel. As I started understanding, okay, this is a marriage I thought was gonna be a good marriage. We were very different people. We have a different set of values. I don't want an open marriage or a divorce, but I think the divorce is the only way forward. And I don't want my children to see this as a healthy model of relationship. Even though I didn't initiate the divorce, I started to understand that it was necessary. And I just. I think about that moment where I've forgiven myself a lot because I was like, the red flags. And the people said, well, why didn't you leave sooner? Like, you knew that it wasn't like a safe situation. Or look, people said that. And I was like, dude, I was like, plug my own cell phone in.
- [57:46]
A
I need to call a hard time out. Because for anyone listening, whether you find yourself being told, why didn't you just. Or if you have ever found yourself saying or you've ever felt the impulse of. First of all, on behalf in defense of younger Erica. How dare they? How dare they? And oh, I just felt that so viscerally, like, in defense to you. I just want to like, be like, no, no. Even though you're not asking for it. And I can see how much healing you've done because you're one. You're holding the story and revealing it. I don't feel you processing it. You're revealing it. Which is, for me, that's always the litmus test of how I choose to share. It's like, if I'm still actively in process, then if my healing is in any way dependent on someone's response to me, that's not the time for me to share so I can feel the work you've done. How dare they. Because that shame is what silences people and that is what keeps them stuck. Because you have probably thought it too. I know I did. Like, how did I not know I was raped? And what does that say about me? What does that say about younger me? Because I didn't know, or rather I didn't let myself know. I also stayed in that relationship for another year. That's. That was just waves and waves and waves of shame that I didn't need to hold. I didn't need to hold and carry any of that because it wasn't my fault. And I think that that shifting shame and blame and turning it into how can I make this something active to bring myself into wholeness. It's not my fault what happened, but it is my responsibility to look at what I had honestly and compassionately and then make the next right step for me from there. That is all a hundred percent my responsibility, not my fault. And so how could a sweet 22 year old, 24 year old little Erica, like, my God, imagine us at 20. I'm 41, like thinking back to 22, 24 year old me working a hundred hours a week, I.
- [59:54]
B
But that gave me a whole new lease on life because I was like, okay, who am I? What do I want if I'm going to have my kids Roughly half the time, what kind of a mom do I want to be in that context? And I'm just so grateful. I mean, there's still obviously the pain of co parenting and all of that. My kids are 13 and 11 now. They're the loves of my life. I can't imagine my life without them. And you better believe that I tell them to take their time when it comes to relationships. I show them what unconditional love really looks like. I'm grateful for so much, but I do think that that moment of I definitely did my own bangs and thankfully I've learned from that experience and grown and healed. Yeah.
- [60:33]
A
Erica, I just want to thank you again. This is one of those conversations where I'm like, oh, this will change a life. This conversation will impact somebody. It's already made such an impact on me, truly. And I don't mean that lightly. Every interview I've ever done has felt like a gift in different ways. This, I can just feel in my bones is going to hit somebody. And whether that's planting a seed that they hold and keep private for a while. Like, by all means, take the grace and space and privacy you need to do that. But I hope that hearing these stories and seeing someone model the all of the things that I talk about in this podcast, Erica is modeling and she's sharing in real time. And that's when I think healing becomes medicine, when we share it. And so thank you for sharing that. And I will of course link Erica's podcast, Erica's website, her programs, the Mindful Self Compassion workbook. She referenced, all of that. I'll make sure to link in the show notes. So this is a conversation starter, not a conversation ender. But thank you for being here, Erica.
- [61:36]
B
Danielle, for the work that you do. I could just tell that like our paths have been so similar and different, but I think that like the ways that we have found to heal are so synergistic and I just cannot wait to collaborate with you and be your friend moving forward.
- [61:58]
A
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A
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