The Myth of Normal and the Pressure to Fix Yourself, with Ashlyn Thompson

Summary

Podcast Summary: Don't Cut Your Own Bangs

Episode Title: The Myth of Normal and the Pressure to Fix Yourself, with Ashlyn Thompson
Host: Danielle Ireland
Guest: Ashlyn Thompson
Date: March 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode is a heartfelt conversation between therapist and author Danielle Ireland and guest Ashlyn Thompson, host of the Empowered by Hope podcast. Brought together for a "pod swap," they dive into the myth of normalcy, the exhausting cycle of trying to "fix" or reinvent oneself, and how to access a more compassionate, creative, and peaceful way of living—especially for high-functioning women, medical moms, and anyone exhausted by modern self-improvement pressures.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Life as a "Medical Mom" with ADHD

[08:15]

• Ashlyn describes the "layers of complexity" in her identity as both a medical mom (raising a child with medical complexities) and someone with ADHD.
• She points out, "We're not talking like triple layer of the cake. Deliciousness, fun. It just feels like layers of complexity, which matches life."
• Danielle explains the term "medical mom" for new listeners.

2. The Inner Narrative of Self-Improvement and Never Enough

[10:35]

• Ashlyn reflects on the voice in her head that always pushes her to believe she must "renovate" or "reinvent" herself to be okay.
  • "The only way to get to a state of peace or fulfillment...is by reinventing myself or renovating myself or redoing..."
• She questions whether the culture of self-growth has become a cycle of chasing one’s own tail.

3. The Critical Role of Intention in Growth

[13:21]

• Danielle defines intention as the crucial factor when seeking growth:
  • "If my intention going in is that I am not enough, I am inherently flawed, there is something wrong with me and this has the answer I need...what leaves me feeling like I'm spiraling or anxious."
• She shares her own comfort-seeking behaviors and how quickly “reinvention” collapses if rooted in self-rejection.

4. "The Myth of Normal" and Diagnostic Labels

[19:25]

• Danielle introduces the concept from Gabor Maté's book The Myth of Normal: The idea that normal is a myth constructed on shaky, often exclusionary foundations.
  • "At some point in time everyone will fit the diagnostic criteria for something in [the DSM]."
  • "There is a myth of normal...a baseline of normal—and that anything that skews beyond is outside of what normal is. But absence of illness is not health."
• Both discuss the flawed data behind what the medical and social sciences deem “normal,” especially for women and marginalized populations.
  • Ashlyn: "The world has always told me that I'm abnormal, that I don't fit and I need to be somebody else to work within what fit."

5. Self-Renovation vs. Self-Reclamation

[28:23]

• Ashlyn proposes a reframing: “What is the difference between self renovation and self reclamation?”
  • Self-renovation = chasing external fixes; Self-reclamation = tuning in, honoring one's own wisdom.
  • She likens "normal" test results in medicine to the pressure to fit life within arbitrary norms—and the importance of gut intuition.

6. Rethinking "Normal" and Using Data as Allies

[31:32]

• Danielle: “It’s information and looking at it like information. Because in that way, it becomes an ally, not an obstacle.”
• Advocates using data (like lab results or diagnoses) as tools—not definitions.

7. Practical Questions for Self-Reflection & Redefining Success

[34:46]

• Ashlyn asks for practical “awareness starter” questions.

• Danielle’s three-step process:

  1. Awareness: "Start to pay attention to what feels good and what doesn’t feel good... becoming aware of how you feel moment to moment."
  2. Acknowledge: “Stake the claim...This is how I’m feeling. This is feeling good, this isn’t feeling good.”
  3. Act: “Let that awareness...inform your next millisecond step.”
  • Notable Quote:
    • "I believe into the marrow of my bones is that that process is your internal GPS, your internal guidance system leading you somewhere that you want to be." – Danielle [40:40]

8. Redefining "Best Self" and the Pursuit of Peace

[41:51]

• Ashlyn reflects: "There is no logical path to finding peace. One of the things that I realize that I don't typically include in my process before I start something is identifying what does feeling really good or being my best actually mean to me?"
• She notes the role of peace as a worthy aim versus endless self-optimization.

9. Accessing Gentler Self-Inquiry

[46:05]

• Danielle suggests the gentle question:
  • "Where is the water warm?"
  • Where can you access creativity, even briefly?
  • Recommends small acts—like origami or play—especially for people convinced they “have no time.”
  • References Tricia Hersey’s The Nap Ministry: Rest and creative play are resistance to a culture of exhaustion.

10. Creativity, Rest, and Non-Linear Healing

[52:06]

• Danielle lauds art, humor, and creativity as ways to deactivate the anxious brain:
  • "If you are creating, the anxious part of your brain isn't functioning... they can't function at the same time."
• Ashlyn shares how humor/comedy has helped her break cycles of despair.
  • Danielle: "Sometimes writing and talking are so much of my day to day work... sometimes I'll let my daughter, we'll make a mess in the kitchen together. And that is wildly fulfilling and fun."

11. Looking Outside Yourself for Inspiration—not Comparison

[56:37]

• Danielle frames outside influences as inspiration rather than comparison:
  • "If I see someone who has something I want...that is information. That's my internal GPS tuning me to that."
  • Ashlyn: “It's one thing to think I must buy...that exact color is the kind that I need to feel good as opposed to observing it and thinking, oh, I like that.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the “knockout punch” of shoulds:
  "It shouldn't be this hard. It should be easier. I should be further along by now... Like, that combo is the one-two punch. If we were in boxing... that will just keep you on your couch." — Danielle [01:54]

• On chasing self-improvement:
  "...have I come so far around, or has this culture of encouraging self growth come so far around that we've actually started chasing our own tails?" — Ashlyn [11:54]

• On intention and process:
  "If my intention going in is that I am not enough... that’s usually what leaves me feeling like I'm spiraling or anxious... If it's ever coming from that place it will never lead me to a better—that's not where my washboard abs are. That's not where my perfect gut health [is]." — Danielle [16:53]

• On the myth of normal:
  "Absence of illness is not health, and so absence of a diagnosis is not normal." — Danielle [20:46]

• On finding peace:
  "There is no logical path to finding peace. And so I guess where I'd like to toss this back to you is... what is just this starting question that can maybe help shift from being pushed by almost a panic mode to operating with one that's more, maybe just a little softer, kinder...?" — Ashlyn [45:40]

• Gentle self-inquiry:
  "Where is the water warm?" — Danielle [46:05]

• On reclaiming creativity and rest:
  "If you are creating, the anxious part of your brain isn't functioning. They can't function at the same time." — Danielle [52:06]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [08:09] – Ashlyn introduces the experience of being a medical mom with ADHD
• [13:21] – Exploring the intention behind self-improvement
• [19:25] – Danielle introduces "The Myth of Normal"
• [28:23] – Self-renovation vs. self-reclamation
• [34:46] – Questions for self-reflection; Danielle's "awareness, acknowledge, act" model
• [41:51] – Redefining what "best" or "peace" means
• [46:05] – "Where is the water warm?" and the power of tiny creative acts
• [52:06] – Humor, art, and non-linear self-care as resistance
• [56:37] – Using others as inspiration, not comparison

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Summary Takeaways

• The myth of "normal" is a societal construct built on flawed measures; we all fall outside it at some point.
• Constant self-renovation rarely leads to authentic peace—self-reclamation and gentle curiosity are more sustainable.
• Intention shapes the impact of self-improvement practices; seek to work with, not against, your own nature.
• Small acts of creativity, humor, and rest are transformative and resist the culture of optimization and burnout.
• Use others’ choices as sparks of inspiration—never as a prescription for worthiness or happiness.

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This episode is perfect for anyone feeling overwhelmed by the pressure to fix themselves, those wrestling with big feelings while appearing high-functioning, and all seeking a warmer, gentler, and truer path forward.

Transcript

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[Danielle Ireland]

should place and then they apply the question why it shouldn't be this hard. Why is it so hard for me? Girl, it is over before it started. It's not going to lead you anywhere

[Safeway/Albertsons Announcer]

you want to be.

[Danielle Ireland]

It shouldn't be this hard. It should be easier. I should be further along by now. Why are they and why am I not? Why is this so hard? Like, that combo is like the one, two punch. It's if. If we were in boxing. Now that's the knockout punch that will just keep you on your couch. Yeah. And so. Oh my goodness. Just a slightly more compassionate reframe.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

Hello.

[Danielle Ireland]

Hello, this is Danielle Ireland. And you were listening to Don't Cut yout Own Bangs and empowered by Hope podcast. We're doing a pod swap. Folks, this is a first and really fun new podcast adventure here in the don't cut your own bangs cozier corner of the Internet. Ashlyn had a really good idea. She said, I have this idea. I have some things I want to talk to you about. I want my listeners to hear from you. And I think that all of our content would fit really well for the don't cut your own bangs listeners too. And I said, light bulb, let's do it. Let's record one conversation and share it in two different places. And that is exactly what we did. It was beautiful. As it always is. Ashlyn, she's been on the podcast now. This will be her third time. But what I'm so grateful for, if you have been along for the ride since the podcast launched onto video. She was my first in person video recording that I shared when I really relaunched the podcast and put more heart, I'll say, behind what I'm wanting to create here in this space. And she just consistently shows up as real and beautiful and present and open hearted as ever. And in this conversation, she. And you'll hear this. I mean, it is, I'll say, I'll admit it's not a flawless audio recording. There is life happening around us. And, you know, that's just what happens when you have two working moms who are trying to do work from home. Life happens at home. And you will hear some of that. We did our best to clean it up, tighten it up so that it's obviously still professional. And I mean, if the audio quality is not great, it is hard, no matter how much you may like the content, it's just hard to wrap your head around. So trust me, like, it's cleaned up, it's good. But you might hear the occasional dog scratch because my sweet dog Emma had a tumor removed and she's living in a cone. We're living that cone life. And in Ashlyn's house, you know, she's got someone opening and collapsing grocery bags. And so that is life lifing. I hope that it, it adds to the integrity of this slice of life in our podcast and it doesn't detract the other thing that I love, love, love, love. Not just about this particular podcast, but Ashlyn is she, she will reveal exactly what's going on and where she is in that process. And I find that so incredible because when we're actually in the middle of a funky, challenging, gritty growth edge, it's a little less fun to name that experience when you're in it and be in it. And she has, over the course of time, knowing her, she has this way of acknowledging the truth of the trenches and what she's experiencing, but in a way that invites us to see ourselves in her. And it doesn't bring you down. It leaves room for hope, which is in the title of her podcast, but I think it's also just infused in the work that she brings to the world that we can hold the hard, messy, tender spaces and we can still have capacity for hope. It's not the period at the end of the sentence, it's just a step along the way. And so I invite you to join us in this podcast matchup. It is a first and it won't be the last. I'm quite confident of that now. But it was really fun to do and I'm so happy for you to join us in this brand new creative process. So thank you so much for being here and I hope you're ready to sit back, relax and listen to Ashlyn from Empowered by Hope podcast and a conversation on don't cut your own bangs before launching into this conversation with Ashlyn, I want to set aside a little bit of time to talk about two products that are really near and dear to my heart. The first is the Treasured Journal, A journal for unearthing you. It's a seven part guided journal that I made with my clients for my therapy practice in mind, I would recommend everybody take a journal home. They would come back with a blank piece of paper and say, okay, I did it. Now what do I do? And this journal was, over the course of a few years, the answer to that question what do I do? What do I say? What do I write about? How do I actually take this information and make something meaningful from it? The Treasure Journal is broken down into seven key areas of your life sentence, stems, quotes, exercises from my therapy practice, as well as stories to get the creative wheels turning. It's meant to be a companion that you can take with you and you can revisit again and again. That's linked in the show notes as well as my website, danielireland.com if you are a person in the world raising little people in the world or you are adjacent to someone raising little people in the world, we all know kids or someone who has kids. And I wrote this book called Wrestling a Walrus for Little People with Big Feelings. Because I am raising little people with very big feelings and they are new and I am new raising them. While they were experiencing their meltdowns and their big feelings, I was also facing my own watching them. And so this book, Wrestling a Walrus, was made with all of that in mind. It's illustrated beautifully. It's got a lot of heart. It talks about what do we actually do when there is an immovable, seemingly insurpassable obstacle, and the obstacle is Our feelings. What do we do with those obstacles that won't move, won't change, no matter how upset we get, how much we rage, how much we want to negotiate, what do we actually do with those feelings? How do we name those feelings? All in the sweet little children's book that you can pick up at barnes and noble.com or Amazon.com or you can always visit the link in the show notes as well. Thanks so much for listening. And now let's check out the conversation with Ashlyn Thompson.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

This conversation, the little tiny opening up, I guess.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

In that I thought that being a medical mom made it really a lot to juggle. And then on top of that, though, the reality is that I'm learning being an ADHD medical mom is a whole other layer. And we're not talking like triple layer of the cake. Deliciousness, fun. It's like feels like just layers of complexity which matches life.

[Danielle Ireland]

And just to add a little side note, for anyone listening, the don't cut your own bang side of the conversation that maybe isn't familiar with what medical mom means. It's. It's a mother raising a child living with medical complexities and.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

Absolutely.

[Danielle Ireland]

So I just wanted to. Because, I mean, anyone, anyone who's listening to our conversation, our previous conversations, would know. But just in case. So yes, you're a mother, you're a medical mom, and you're a medical mom who has adhd.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

Right. And so I have been on this journey and I know that you and I have talked about this a couple times and. But the reason I wanted to have this conversation with you, having that be the preface of the way I'm looking at myself as a mom in those different buckets I feel like I'm carrying all the time.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

Is because with your background, with your practice and as a therapist, as a mom, as a creative, as somebody who does lots of different things beautifully, full heartedly and also your opening up about your own journey on, you know, don't cut your own bangs podcast, which still to this day holds the title for best podcast. I've yet to come across anything better than that. Thank you. You're welcome. There should be just simply an award for that. And if there's not a category, there should be. We should submit that.

[Danielle Ireland]

I'm going to get real vulnerable here since you are too, and just share that. There are moments since I was a wee, wee child where I imagined myself winning an award of some kind and like getting like choked up. But like, like modestly and humbly, like, just like but like, I fully, my body is fully experiencing me accepting an award. I just don't know what the award is. So maybe, maybe this is. This is the answered prayer.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

I'm nominating you. I'm finding a way to make this real. What better title podcast could there be? It says it all. And it's just. It's so first off, I recommend listening to Danielle's podcast. But Danielle, you are very open and vulnerable on your podcast, sharing that you too are going through your own journey of what I would call is self discovery, understanding yourself. You know, kind of taking off, if you will, like those layers of beliefs and concepts and practices that you've compiled throughout your life and taking this time to look at them and ask yourself, does this one actually serve me now? Does this fit where I am in life? So listening to you talk about that, I decided I needed to have a friend chat with you because this journey that I've been on has led me to face a really common theme in my life, which is this constant voice in my head that is not one to be diagnosed. For the record, it's a very common voice we all have, but that the only way to get to a state of peace or fulfillment or feeling just good about myself is by reinventing myself or renovating myself or redoing. Like I keep saying, it's all of these different words that we use to look at ourselves and compare to others or what we believe somebody else who often is a stranger is telling us, if we will only do X, Y and Z, or 1, 2 and 3, we're going to feel so much better. I think that there were so many benefits to it and a lot of wonderful, helpful tools. But I feel like now, having been on that journey pretty intensely for the last, probably since my son was like a year old, so what, seven years. Now I'm asking myself, have I come so far around or has this culture of encouraging self growth come so far around that we've actually started chasing our own tails? Because now I feel like if I'm not making changes, if I'm not following this advice, then what am I doing? I'm falling short. And so before we go any further, what does that spark for you?

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah, it sparked a couple of things. I would say the two is, what is the intention from the seeking of help or this or like the. The pursuit of growth or reinvention, what is the underlying intention? Because that will inform how it's approached and ultimately the outcome. And then the other thing it made me think of was what is required when we are living in a time and where there's so much information and it's not even a judgment about the information or the informer or it's. It's. There is just so much. And so the, the image that was coming to mind for me was like a sieve. When kids are wanting to find shells on the beach and they take a big scoop of sand and they have to shake it through and then the treasures that are left are sitting on top of the sieve. And I think that given the, the noise and the amount of just sand on the beach as the, the analogy for information that's out there, there's so many people who are all experts, they're all coaches, they've all experienced something and they want to help. I'm getting more requests to share my space and time. Like people are wanting to be guests on the podcast. And I can feel in such a visceral way what feels like a yes and what feels like a no. And I got an ask that was so clearly a no. This person was positioning themselves to be an expert. And their expert takeaways was absolutely the thing my listeners needed. I could tell also weren't keyed in or tuned in at all to who my audience is and what I'm here to talk about. But all that to say is that there is a space for everyone. I do believe that even if it's not a space for me and my show, there's a space for everyone. But I think as a, as a consumer of content, as a consumer of information, as a consumer in the world, I want to be more discerning about what I'm consuming and what I'm taking in. But to go back to intention, if I'm approaching any project growth, edge, self help process, therapeutic process, if my intention going in is that I am not enough, I am inherently flawed, there is something wrong with me and this has the answer I need. That it's usually what leaves me feeling like I'm spiraling or anxious or success is just out of reach. The intention, if it's grounded in something closer to a more loving place, I know that sounds very vague and wishy washy, but that the intention, if I'm wanting to grow, if I'm wanting to be the best version of me, not a different version of me, but the best version of me, the most grounded, the most present, the most informed, then the information that I'm seeking or the way that I'm approaching, seeking help, it's there to inform me to become the best version of me and then it just feels like like a thread being woven into my tapestry. All of the over functioning that lead to under functioning behaviors that have never worked for me come raging to the surface when I'm coming from I'm not enough and I need this thing to be enough. If it's ever coming from that place it will never lead me to a better that's not where my washboard abs are. That's not where. That's not where my perfect gut health.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

That explains so much.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

Oh my gosh.

[Danielle Ireland]

If I'm coming from a place of I'm not enough and this person, this process, this thing has the answer. If I just act like this person then I will be. That's I'll. What I'll have is like maybe a really anxious false sense of productivity for maybe two days, three days and then I wig out and then I under function and will rewatch Gilmore Girls or and not and this not a judgment of watching Gilmore Girls but like I'll go back to comfort because I was approaching reinvention in such a. Not holistic in the past when I had done this very thing. That's I'll. I'll drive myself into the ground trying to be someone I'm not and adopt a process that doesn't fit me and then I'll. All my comfort seeking behavior usually involves like buying some version of like a loose knit cream color sweater and then watching a comfort TV show and my comfort shows are the Office, Parks and Recreation, Ted Lasso, Brooklyn 99 like but and or Gilmore Girls. I'll go back down at least for a season or two or three. I'll rewatch them. It just. That's just what I do. I'm like oh that didn't feel good. And then I'm right back into my. My little comfort pit spiral.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

I'm curious when between yourself and then just observations in your you know as in your career as a professional who helps lots of people with this as I assume this is pretty common in today's day of age that people are going through this experience. What I have found is that that same experience that you're talking about where I'll dive into something and it feels very like. Like hardly breathing honestly or like it's so intense it's overdrive and then it spirals because it's not actually sustainable and the nervous system feels totally wrecked habits or you know those things that I. That I was doing before that I had decided I shouldn't.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

Not only do I go back to them. But for a time I feel like it's on overdrive. Like it's even more extreme for a while that I'm going back to that I was doing before I started this new path of oh, if I just renovate this part of my life, I'm going to be so much happier and more fulfilled. Is that a normal response for people or could that. Or would you gauge that to be maybe a little bit more of the ADHD perspective where it's. You return to it at an even more intense pace for comfort.

[Danielle Ireland]

You know the question of like what, what is me? What is my adhd? What is me? What is my anxiety? What is me? What is my depression? What is me? What is my addiction? I was spending a lot of time thinking about this actually yesterday had a really hard time focusing when I wasn't dialed in to something that I had to be dialed into. My mind was just like a balloon on a string and she was wandering and one of the place she wandered to was this. The DSM 5 which is the diagnostic criteria that any medical provider or mental health professional uses to diagnose mental health diagnosis as we know it today. And here was the rambling thought. The rambling thought was at some point in time everyone will fit the diagnostic criteria for something in this book. And by the way the whole forward to the book is calling out all the flaws and the gaps and so there will be a DSM 6, there will be a DSM 7 in our lifetime. And, and so that there is this. There is a myth of normal and the myth of normal is actually a book. It's a great book. I'll be to be more transparent. So it's a great book. I haven't finished. It's so big but it's on my shelf. I look at it every day. I haven't finished it this right, yeah.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

Sponging it.

[Danielle Ireland]

It's. It's more like a. For me it's like a great point of reference. It's. But it's such a comfort in that it speaks to the systematic flawed belief that there is a baseline of normal and that anything that skews beyond is outside of what normal is. But here's the funny thing is absence of illness is not health and so absence of a diagnosis is not normal. So like thinking of it through the lens of okay, you, you identify as someone who has ADHD or you've been diagnosed as someone because I think ADHD is one of those things where I think a lot of people are now self diagnosing I don't necessarily have a hot take on that other than definitely,

[Ashlyn Thompson]

very medically, lots of looking into it. But you're so right, a lot of

[Danielle Ireland]

people identify there's AI WebMD and there's probably a lot of reasons for that. But one, it's probably hard to get an appointment. Two, maybe not trusting the system or, you know, all the things that could go into why it would be easier to turn to a phone to get an answer than a person, or at least it seems that way. But all that to say is that there the fact that you have been diagnosed with ADHD and I have not been diagnosed with adhd, it's like based on a very, very thin, flawed paradigm that would mean I'm in the camp of normal and you are in the camp of outside of normal. And that's just not true. To go back to my Mylar balloon that I was floating in yesterday, it's just not true.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

Yesterday day for me, I went down the rabbit hole of totally not enough. Am I ever going to have an entire day where I don't feel. I feel like I am attached to a yo yo or I'm the yo yo, somebody else has the string and I go in and out all day and I don't know for how long. And am I ever going to get to a point that I can have a day that the whole day is pretty good, is pretty solid without a big tank, without a big, you know, or something and just. I'm not sorry. Like, it got to me really rough last night because I keep trying so hard for so long to just stay in that place. But for the sake of this episode, your Mylar balloon actually led to what I think so. Cause I haven't. This conversation, I haven't been able to start it like, the way I know that I was so comfortable starting it or before we ever did it. And so I feel like what you just touched on about this myth of normal, it's perfect for, like, it's not the only thing we need to talk about. But for the scope of when I'm sharing this with medical families, I think that addressed, like, if this conversation maybe leaning into what does, like, how you can speak to that, this myth of normal. Like, as soon as you said that, I was like, oh, you mean. What do you mean? An absence of diagnosis doesn't mean normal? What do you mean? That, like, I am abnormal? Because the world has always told me that I'm abnormal, that I don't fit and I need to be somebody else to work within what fit? Of all the medical parents who they're told everything about them is abnormal. They're chill, and then the weight of your child is abnormal.

[Danielle Ireland]

Well, if you think about even what a norm is so right. We. I think norm, we conflate with an average. Okay, how is an average even calculated? Now, please, please, anybody listening?

[Ashlyn Thompson]

Who.

[Danielle Ireland]

I got A's. I got A's in math because I was good at memorizing, not because I'm good at math now. I'm not bad at math. I'm not gonna.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

I am. So you're okay.

[Danielle Ireland]

I'm not gonna shit on myself. No, I. I'm not bad at it. It's just not my top strength. Okay. Gonna practice a little.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

Timely said.

[Danielle Ireland]

Thank you.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

Beautifully said.

[Danielle Ireland]

Thank you. We take all of the data points, we add them together, and then we divide them by the number of data points. That's all that means. So what is the norm like? I think we've associated being good. There's so many associations that we've made with norm. When really what we might be talking about in terms of a study or a diagnosis is do you fit the diagnostic criteria? The diagnostic criteria that put a number of researchers and scientists did a bunch of studies, compiled the studies, did a meta analysis, we hope most of the studies done on men, most of those men being college students, because that was the access they had, the population they had access to. And we had to start somewhere. And I, when I say we, I'm looping myself into a mental health community, but I understand it has to start somewhere. Let's get wrong figured out so we can figure out what right is in terms of how we approach it. Like, I don't want to on anything. This is where we are and what we have. But I think what I see in my clients and what I feel in myself is this sense that there is. There's either a norm that we're falling below or I think, stretch to another extreme. Everything is about longevity and maximizing. It's not just about being healthy. Like maybe, oh, you thought you were healthy. Well, if you're not taking creatine, your fucking bones are turning to dust. You know, if you actually think about the term norm as a reference point, it's. It's talking about an average. And even, like the data set that the average was based on is a flawed data set. Mean, who was studied, how long were they studied, how many people were studied, how many people started the study, finished the study. This is one of those. One of those few moments where because I love living in the feeling space and I love getting all mushy, gushy into the emotions. But this is one of those, I think, specific conversations where actually like putting the logic hat on and almost putting a researcher hat on can add so much grace. Because once you start looking through the dsm, which I'm not recommending people do, it's kind of, it's boring. But you realize, oh, at some point in all of our lives, we will all fit the criteria for at least one thing, or almost all the criteria for one thing. Because the, the population that I work with are people who are really, really high functioning, under functioning. So like, they're showing up for the world. Their kids are getting to all their dates, their, their bank account is in a comfortable range. They definitely are living with some level of privilege. By all accounts, on the outside, they are hitting the mark. And yet in our sessions, they feel like they're either low level, drowning, their life is a dumpster fire, their health isn't what they want it to be. Their self talk is telling them that it would be just easier if they didn't exist. It's a dark, heavy, hard mental space. It's like quoting Elizabeth Gilbert, their mind is a bad neighborhood they wandered into and they don't feel safe in, but it's their mind and so they're carrying it everywhere. And so all that to say is because, like, where's the hope now? Where's the hope after all? That is that I think that the measuring stick that we're ruling our success and failure by is flawed and 100%. Yeah. And so almost like starting from scratch. I am a part of a system, and I am part. I'm a messy, imperfect person, a part of a messy and perfect system. And I want to find the way forward that feels best to me, that doesn't cause harm to others. I think if that's like a starting point, how can I feel good and move forward in a way that isn't causing harm to other people? Can we? Yeah, can we?

[Ashlyn Thompson]

Really quick, I want to unpack something. Your information you provided about what does norm actually mean when. Which is something that is actually a huge part of being in the medical life. And we don't often stop and think about what norm is actually indicative of. From the science, from the research, from all the people who defined what norm means by the time it makes it to you as a patient or as the parent, the patient. And where I started to feel a flicker of that hope again was by normalizing the fact that norms are not the essence of hitting the mark of being good. It's that the empowerment can come from what I. I think I originally reached out to you about, which was through a text message. Danielle was. Can we have a conversation about what is the difference between self renovation and self reclamation? What is the difference between spending your time and your efforts and your focus on trying to consume and then apply to yourself from external sources to quote, unquote, feel your best, be your best, as opposed to reclaiming. Maybe it's remembering, tuning into yourself to let that inform what is right for you. Because one of the things that is very common. So let's say something as simple as lab. If you get a physical, you've had labs. Labs are very common with many medical conditions. And it's so common for them to say, well, you fell within the norm, the range of norm.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

But one of the things that we talk about so often to parents and it's so easy to do when you're thinking about it for your children, is that kind of that gut feeling, that intuition that your child might be falling within the acceptable range of norm. But let's say they're at the low end of that normal range, and you just know that is not enough for my child. We need to push this further because there are countless stories where I've experienced them, but I've talked to so many people who have said, look, I just think I'm not comfortable settling with that as our bar. Yes, it's within the accepted medical realm of norm, but I don't think it's actually helping my child feel as well as they could. Mm. So I want to push on this further, explore those options.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

Not every time, but there certainly are those cases. And so thinking about it that way, it makes much more sense to me that, of course, normal is not something to chase. And what are we defining normal by?

[Danielle Ireland]

Right.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

Like how we feel.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah, it's information and looking at it like information. Because in that way, it becomes an ally, not an obstacle. It becomes not something to override or overcome. Because even if you think about, for example, the. The language we use around treating anxiety, for example, we have to combat anxiety. We have to fight. We have to resist. There's all of that language. If we were to really get still, if I could lead everyone through, like a mindfulness exercise, a breath exercise, we get really still, really safe. And then I start saying things like, resist, fight, go to war, like you were going to start feeling this tightening and constricting, the very. The very energy of the Approach to treat is inducing the thing we're trying to treat. And so I can't tell you how many people I work with who are either experiencing anxiety or been diagnosed with anxiety. And then we look back like, well, where are those thoughts? Where are those thoughts coming from? They're coming from a real place a lot of the time. Not every time. Not every time, but a lot of times. What we're giving a clinical name to is a. I'll say a healthy response that is correlated to something that they're experiencing in life. And that's information to look at. What could we help you do to cultivate resiliency? What could we do to help you get a little bit more curious? What can we do to help you support yourself better? What outside supports, chemically, community? What systems can we help you put in place to feel more supported in that experience? But to say that we're gonna combat it or fight it because you are a problem that just feels overcome.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

It is one that he hears so often.

[Danielle Ireland]

Where's the BCAD line marker that says, I had this. Now I no longer have this? It's similar to, like, people who survive. Like a cancer treatment. You're in remission. Like, no one who is in recovery for an addiction. Like, you didn't beat your addiction. It's one day at a time borrowing AA language. So to go back to what you're saying, there is, this is the information that this test provides. The information of this test is that your child is within this range, on the low end of this range, but you can choose what to do with that information and how you want that to inform their treatment plan moving forward. It's like my internal GPS system, like an external piece of technology can tell me how to get from point A to point B. But I am the one who knows where I want to go. So I can't. If I just let my GPS tell me where to go without me first setting the intent. I want to get to San Diego or I want to get to Washington, D.C. then the tool that's gonna help me figure out how to get there, either in the most scenic route or the most direct route. That's where the tool becomes a helpful tool. But I think sometimes we put the tool before we're clear inside, and then we've ended up in a place we never wanted to be.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

I feel a call to go a little towards the practical. What are some really just basic. Maybe it's even questions we can ask ourselves that anybody could ask themselves about. What is driving a feeling what is actually driving your action? To seek external information, you know, opinions about a change you should be making in your life? Because I felt maybe more caught when you talked about, are you seeking that information, those tools, those processes from other people because you've identified that something would be a healthy change for you, or are you doing it from a place of feeling? Not enough, less than broken, incorrect. And I have struggled a lot of the time in my life operating from a place of I'm not quite. I'm not right, I'm not. And so what I'd love to hear from you are, what are some questions that you could encourage people if you're feeling anything along those lines of, I, you know, just, I need. I mean, sometimes it's just as broad as I just, I need to get my. My shit together. I need to get my life in order. Or I'm. I feel like I'm failing everywhere. You know, my house is a mess, my kids are always late, I'm always behind on getting the bills, and the stack of mail is to turn into a new mountain range. Like, what are. And so we're coming at it from that place. And then we start. It's like this grab bag exercise of surely somebody out there knows better than I do. Because everything they're presenting to me looks like what I think I need in order to feel good about myself.

[Danielle Ireland]

Well, sometimes, like, adopting somebody else's style helps you figure out what actually is and isn't working for you. So let's say you're in that place. Cause some people's houses burned down and they have to start from scratch. If someone's life is in a place where they're like, it's all come down and I've got to rebuild, you know, I'm going to live in an Airbnb. It's. I don't know if I would have picked this picture, but I'm living in a space with this picture on the wall. Like, huh? What does this life feel like with this furniture in it? I think the process I like to go back to can apply like the conditioner bottle instructions. Just rinse, repeat. The process is the same. Become aware of how you feel. And this awareness, what I would add, like the caveat, asterisks I would add is really start to pay attention to what feels good and what doesn't feel good. And I'm using that general language because comfort might feel different than pleasure. Safety might feel different than excited, feeling activated and encourage. There's a lot of nuance with that. But Start general. So becoming increasingly aware of, and that requires presence, but being aware of how am I feeling when I do this? And I love to add like a little note to clients, take in all the data. Right. How do you feel in anticipation of doing this thing? How do you feel when you're actually in the act of doing the thing? How do you feel when you're done? Like, for example, I always find reasons to not exercise before I exercise. Rarely when I'm in the process of exercising am I loving what I'm doing. But afterwards, afterwards I'm like, you know what? That was good, that was nice. And so there's lots of things that could fit that boat. But so all of those before, during and after, those are really good. That's good data to take in. Becoming aware with how you feel moment to moment to moment, and paying attention to what feels good and what doesn't feel good and just taking in that information without trying to decide what to do with it yet. Because the more acquainted, the more familiar you are with the experience in your body. The embodiment of feeling good, feeling safe, feeling creatively charged, that warmth of leaning in and inviting into something, the safety and grounded feeling of being in the presence with someone that your nervous system just really likes being around. That's all information. And the more presence, the more awareness and the more practice you bring around that the more highly attuned you will be to when you are in the presence of something that is not that. When you're in the presence of somebody who is not in line with that. When you're like, oh, that person is not safe, that person does not have my best interest at heart. My people pleaser said yes. Ask questions. Later version of me said yes to this activity. And now I'm here and I don't want to be here. So tuning the instrument of awareness of what feels good, what doesn't feel good. So that's step one. That could become a daily journal practice that could become, I mean, something Martha Beck did that I love. Is she. She committed to for a year, every hour she would check in with herself and ask herself if she was lying. Am I lying right now? Am I saying I'm fine when I'm not fine? Am I laughing along to a joke that's not fun? Like just all the different ways. But that is something I like. Sometimes in a day I'll set an alarm and my alarm maybe isn't every hour might be every, like, I don't know, three. And I'll just check in because my over functioner will take over. And before I realize it, I've spiraled. So just building in those little breaks gives me an opportunity to get intentional and check in with how is my body? Is it hydrated? Is it fed? Does it need to eliminate something? When's the last time I've seen a human? Am I scrolling on my phone? And when I really don't want to be doing that. So to go back to awareness, does this feel good? Does this not feel good? And then the second step is to acknowledge that somehow. So either say it to a human, put it in a voice note, write it in a journal, write it on a post it note, or just simply say it out loud. Or you can also think it to yourself. But stake the claim, stake the flag. This is how I'm feeling. This is feeling good, this isn't feeling good. And that might even look like in real time. This isn't feeling good and I don't know what to do about it yet. Or this is feeling uncomfortable, but I'm not sure what that means. That's okay, but just acknowledge it somewhere, somehow. And then the third and final caveat is to let that awareness that you have acknowledged inform your next millisecond step. And what I believe into the marrow of my bones is that that process is your internal gps, your internal guidance system leading you somewhere that you want to be. Right. So I mean the most simply said, awareness, acknowledge and act. But I think in practice there's a lot of nuance to that.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

Right. Maybe that might be something too that I could circle back around to you that if you have some, you already have some episodes that you've recorded in the past, or if you have some processes that you like to share with others as examples that people could reference. And it's one of those things, I think you try it on and see what fits for you.

[Danielle Ireland]

Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

And literally like the process you're talking about is very much the same process you would use to figure out which style of moving forward with this works. Now, thought that kind of surface as you were talking through that when I know that I've experienced when there are a lot of things going on in my life and sometimes I guess it's not always about quantity, but we'll just say the weight of certain things going on that I don't have control over. If I look at my life, I probably can pinpoint there are times where I leaned more heavily into what can I change about myself. And it's almost this sense of trying to find some Sort of control or something I can influence to feel more safe. There haven't been too many times where I've probably actually resulted in that. Where it's actually, you know, led to me feeling sturdier and feeling better. And one of the things that I realize that I don't typically include in my process before I start something is identifying with what does feeling really good or being my best actually mean to me? Not when I've been doing well with this at times, off and on, over the past year. A word that I never put much weight into prior to that, but now I'm. Don't know how I missed it. Is this idea of. Or this concept of feeling peace that it's not always about achievement, not about. It's just like yesterday I had a really, just rough and tough emotional day. Internal neighborhood was brawling all around me and I was at the center of every fight and. But there was this moment where for some reason it was like my energy kind of spiked and I felt myself feel more grounded. And I sat down at the coffee table with my kids who were coloring some pictures. And I sat down and I just worked on some note cards I needed to make just next to them. And they kept showing me their pictures as they were coloring them. And so I had this moment of us. Like, I just feel so good right now. Like, this is what feeling at peace feels like. Getting some things done, but I'm not missing what's happening in front of me. And yet so often I make these decisions to try this new method of food prep or like an overhaul on. On food, on lunches and exercise and housekeeping and schedule and meditation and all these things. And reality is, is like trying to grab all of these things at the same time. There is no logical path to finding peace. And so I guess where I'd like to toss this back to you is just as a question of what is. Is there just a really simple question? I liked the one about am I lying to myself? Like, it was very confronting, but it was also like so clear. And I feel like however you need to receive that, you will. But is there a question that we, you know, as listeners who, like I'm thinking about. Yes. I work with so many families who are entrenched in the medical realities of day to day life. Medications, appointments, therapies, doctor visits, all this stuff and whatnot, but still feeling desperate to find a way to just feel good.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

What is just this starting question that can maybe help shift from being pushed by almost a panic mode to operating with one that's more, maybe just a little softer kinder can help us actually operate from through a lens of clarity in what might be good for us instead of that desperation.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah, where is the water warm? Would be one question you asked for gentle. Where is the water warm? Not as what is required, what's needed, what has to get done, what's next on the list, where is the water warm? And the other is wherever you can access creativity. You will, I'll say through just the function of your brain. I just repurchased a giant pack of origami paper because that, that's something that, like, I can't help when I talk about it, I smile. And kids are inherently creative. I mean, I, I've got a two year old and a four and a half year old tumbling around my feet constantly and they're either making a mess or making art or making messy art, but they are constantly making. And we come into the world as makers. And I think in the busy commotion of life, you know, it's so easy to the world doesn't need one more doodle in a notebook. But I would argue as your advocate and as your friend from afar in podcast land, yes, we fucking do. We need your doodles, we need your chicken scratch, we need your bad pottery, we need your painted mugs. Because creativity allows you to tap into, I'll just say, like the power center of your brain that is dormant and sleeping and hibernating. When you are living in fight or flight, the parasympathetic nervous system, the places in your brain that you really want an overdrive to tackle a hard problem, you'll have greater access to them quicker if you let yourself create for a couple of minutes. And I'm saying a couple of minutes because I'm talking to my people who are living in a space where they are convinced they have no time. I'm quoting a quote of a quote, but just bear with me, because I don't know who to give credit to, but that when somebody says they don't have time to meditate for 30 minutes, I know they need three hours. And I think that's true of the people I work with who have the highest rates of burnout and spiraling anxiety and depression, their imagination and their play have atrophied. And that when they find a way to commune with that part of them, things have a way of level setting. And I don't want to say like magic, but for the sake of conversation, it is kind of like magic because we're not machines there's fantastic work being done by a woman named Tricia Hersay. She's created something called the Nap Ministry. And she. She talks about how rest is a form of resistance around capitalism and racism that treated human bodies like machines. And so that when you reclaim rest, you are reclaiming particularly black and brown bodies, but you are reclaiming what was stolen from you. Those systems that were built on treating people like machines are a big part of what's being pumped into the air. It's like the fumes getting pumped from the exhaust pipe of produce. Achieve, Strive. It's all about optimizing. You know, it's not just about getting this thing done, but it's getting more things done quicker. And we have to get more things done so that we can do more things. And then it's just like a hungry hippo. You're like. And you got 30 things done, but you know what? You didn't do that 31st thing. So you get an F for the day, and you're like, no. And then you're like, where's my wine? Where's my comfort tv? Where's my chocolate bar and my, you know, giant thunder blanket? That just makes me feel like I can. Like, I can hide from everything and it just. But where is the water warm? Because the great thing about your body, your mind can do double Dutch and it can do all kinds of flips and tricks, but your body will not lie to you. If your body's tired now, you can pump a lot of caffeine into it. You could take a beta blocker to not be scared. Like, there's all kinds of things you can do to, like. But eventually your body's going to catch up with you. And she's going to say, girl, girl, we need some water, we need some food, we need to sleep. Like, the needs of the body will let themselves be known to you eventually. And so if you can bring your body along with you. Not treating it like my meat suit's getting in the way of my productivity, damn it. If I did need so much sleep, I could get so much more done, Right? But to treat her like a friend and she's trying to tell you something and, like, a little bit of play, truly, like the way that our kids move through the world. If we could operate a little bit more like that, we would be so much better off in terms of mental and emotional health. Like, they want to cuddle, they want to color, they want to play, they want to giggle. Yeah.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

Thinking about, like, so I am a highly creative person, but Sometimes I'll admit, like I'll feel like I will feel just frozen or just the idea of creating it feels so out of reach. So that made sense to me when you said it's almost like that can go dormant. We are trying to juggle so many other pressures that we've deemed life or death, no matter what the circumstances that fight or flight, I suppose. But I'll be honest, that's probably been one of my big biggest breakthroughs over the past year was intentionally incorporating comedy into my life, opportunities for humor, trying to not take things so serious and really realizing how normal humor is throughout life.

[Danielle Ireland]

Just for anybody who thinks creativity isn't a worthy pursuit or it's not necessary, or like the, the busyness and the, and the burdens of life are too loud, that is what artists, artists are truth tellers. There's like the events of the world and we need those, we need those warriors to do the investigative reporting. But there's also the truths of the inner world. And that's where the poets in the Maya Angelou or like the Victor Frankl, like people who have experienced the harshness and the pain of life, who it's. They double down. If you really like just any artist that inspires you, it could even be, you know, someone who cooks or bakes. Like, I mean, sometimes writing and talking are so much of my day to day work that it, yes, it can be creatively fulfilling, but sometimes I'll associate it more with work than with play. But like I'll let my daughter, we'll make a mess in the kitchen together. And that is wildly fulfilling and fun. One because I'm not a good baker. So it's like I can take the pressure off of trying to be good at something because I'm like, I just, I don't like to measure. I'm like, oh, we'll figure it out. Sometimes it works and sometimes it really super doesn't work. But I think that there are. For anyone who thinks that there's not time or there's a more worthy cause, like there are, there's a whole history of people making art in spite of the challenges of the day, in spite of the horrors of the day. And there's a reason why that art resonates, why it's still standing the test of time. And there's a reason why people are still making things. It's not about being an artist, it's about one. If you are creating, the anxious part of your brain isn't functioning. They can't function at the same Time. I think the. What sort of people making gratitude lists and gratitude journals, I think that's, that's sort of twisted to almost be kind of like a therapy joke or like a self help joke online. And I get why, but because it can also dip into toxic positivity. But the, the root and where that originated is that when you are in a state of gratitude, like you can't be enraged and in gratitude, they can't. Those can't occupy the same space in your mind at the same time, or you can't be in disposal. Despair and gratitude at the same time. So trying to find ways to activate those muscles is also a great way to deactivate the functions of the mind that are maybe hurting you. And so creativity, in terms of if you were feeling like you were hyper focused, hyper vigilant, over functioning, anxious and stressed, sitting down for like 20 minutes at a table with your kids and drawing on a note card, that is a great way in. Because it's hard to know, to know where the water's warm, if everything feels like it's on fire, you're like, it's all just too hot, you know.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

That's very true. This morning, even so, my mom was helping get the kids ready for school and it was very helpful. She turned on a playlist that she has, which is kind of. It's like her happy dance music. And I mean, I definitely wasn't feeling it at first, but I could see my kids feeling it and then it just, you know, just absorbed over time until. I'm not saying it turned my day around, but I felt my body feeling less. I could feel it differently in my body that I wasn't as tense or braced for every next moment? Yeah. Creativity doesn't think it can be utilized by leaning into others. Creativity. Take listening to your favorite music, especially something that's upbeat and catchy. And sometimes when I listen to something that's really opposite of how I'm feeling, it can be almost jarring. But sometimes I need that jarring to break me out of despair that I'm just stuck in.

[Danielle Ireland]

Oh, totally. Lately I can't stay sad and listen to Bad Bunny. If Bad Bunny's on. If Bad Bunny's on, I'm like, oh, there's a party happening somewhere.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

Yeah. There's so many things that I've taken from this conversation that anybody listening to it could just pick one or two of them and spend some time just letting it mull around in your mind. What stood out to you? Was it the asking yourself if you're lying in a moment. Was it ordering a book of origami paper? Because all of a sudden you're like, never thought of that. But I felt myself get excited and intrigued by that idea.

[Danielle Ireland]

Like that's where the water's warm. If something goes, oh, and I think in the best sense of the word, as you're doing this recap, that is where looking outside of you for information can be helpful. I like to think of other people's lives if I'm feeling any sense of lack or if I'm feeling like there's room for more. If I see someone who has something I want and I don't just mean in a jealous way or an envious way, but like, God, that would be so nice to have a little bit more of whatever that is. That is information. That's my internal guidance, my internal GPS tuning me to that oh, look at that bright lip that she's wearing in this inner I need to go throw on a bright lip. That would really brighten my day too. Like that. That is in the best sense of how we can extend and reach and admire and learn from one another. It's not just about measuring against and feeling bad, but other people can be teachers in that way too. Simply just by existing in the world and we get to see, oh, I would love a little bit more of that in my life. I'd love a little bit more color you just create.

[Ashlyn Thompson]

All of a sudden everything just clicked for me in the most simple visual way of what you were just describing is so like even your lip example, like the lipstick example. The difference that I heard is I think it's one thing to think I must buy like what? Follow the link of what type of lipstick they're wearing and and only that type. Only that brand and that exact color is the kind that I need to feel good as opposed to, like you said, observing it and thinking, oh, I like that.

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