When Learning Gets Messy & "No" Sets You Free — Best Lessons of the Year: Week 2

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: Don't Cut Your Own Bangs
Host: Danielle Ireland
Episode: When Learning Gets Messy & "No" Sets You Free — Best Lessons of the Year: Week 2
Date: December 8, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode is a heartfelt and practical deep dive into the discomfort of personal growth and the courage it takes to honor one’s boundaries. Host Danielle Ireland weaves together two powerful threads: her own experiences as a therapist navigating the “messy middle” of learning, and a candid conversation with City Moms founder Janine Botmire about the value of community, burnout, motherhood, and saying "no."
Tone: Warm, honest, and gently humorous.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Messy Middle of Learning – Solo Cast Highlights

[02:27–14:15]

• The Theme:
  Danielle revisits the recurring, often uncomfortable process of learning and growing, highlighting that “the middle is messy.”

• On Emotional Interpretation:
  Danielle’s goal is to help listeners “make big feelings feel less scary and more approachable.” She notes the importance of shrinking the gap between knowing what you feel and knowing what to do about it ([03:06]).

• “Tech Sweat” Story:
  She shares her recent struggle with adopting new podcast video technology, describing the sweaty anxiety and self-doubt that surfaced.

  “Both things can be true. I can be an amateur and a novice … and I can also be really proud of what I’ve learned so far, which has been a fuck ton.” — Danielle Ireland [06:00]

• The Learning Spiral:
  Danielle introduces the idea that learning is less like climbing straight stairs and more like moving through a spiral—each round through similar challenges brings deeper insight and a quicker, kinder recovery.

  “Each iteration of the spiral, my hands are getting closer and closer together. That gap is getting smaller.” — Danielle Ireland [11:45]

• Shifting Questions:
  She emphasizes the power of compassionate curiosity:

  • Not “Why am I not enough?” but “How do I want to feel? How do I want to treat myself?”
  • These questions propel actionable growth over shame or stagnation.

• Key Takeaway:
  The feelings we run from—fear, frustration, sadness—are also the birthplace of deeper connection, learning, and even laughter.

  “Learning is rarely graceful, and it doesn’t always look packaged nice or clean … it was also about letting go of old stories, about being willing to see ourselves differently, and about allowing the process to be slower and softer and maybe even more human than we expected.” — Danielle Ireland [14:15]

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2. Community Building & Vulnerability with Janine Botmire

[15:12–29:09]

• Origin of City Moms:
  Janine describes moving to Indianapolis and feeling isolated as a mom of young children without existing local connections. Unable to find a non-church, non-school mommy community, she started City Moms to fulfill her own need and quickly realized many others shared it.

  “We had a hundred members sign up on the first day.” — Janine Botmire [17:18]

• On Supporting Women:
  Janine advocates, “We don’t need super women, we need supported women.” Community grows from offering others the healing we ourselves need ([15:25]).

• Intentional Brand Voice:
  City Moms embodies the voice of the “best friend’s cool older sister”—someone relatable, approachable, and aspirational, always just a little ahead in the journey.

  “We have been there, we have sat in those shoes. We have experienced a lot of the mess. But … we are just a couple days ahead of where our sitting mom might be.” — Janine Botmire [25:18]

• Humor & Messiness:
  Both Danielle and Janine stress the importance of humor and levity in messy situations:

  “There is something about the truth, especially the truth that you try so hard to avoid … But then you see somebody else has it and you’re like, you have that dress, too?” — Danielle Ireland [26:45]

• Making Membership Accessible:
  Janine describes transitioning City Moms to a free membership in response to financial stress during COVID—underscoring that belonging should not be a privilege.

  “That 9.99 a month … no, done. That’s out. Never. We will never go back to a paid membership. It will always be free because it needs to be accessible to everyone.” — Janine Botmire [29:09]

• The Power of "No":
  Janine takes pride in declining opportunities that don’t align with City Moms’ mission or values—even from companies she personally likes—demonstrating integrity over profit.

  “I never want to put someone into a brand consideration when that brand’s not considering them, just considering their own needs.” — Janine Botmire [31:15]

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3. Saying “No” and Redefining Success

[32:02–36:25]

• Don’t Cut Your Own Bangs Moment:
  Janine’s vulnerable reflection on burnout (working 60–70 hour weeks, rarely seeing her kids) and the wakeup call when her toddler said, “Mommy always comes last.”

  “That was the most soul-crushing thing I had ever heard in my life … I cried the entire way home.” — Janine Botmire [34:29]

• Choosing to Leave:
  This pivotal moment led Janine and her husband to leave their jobs and relocate, founding a new chapter in Indianapolis.

  “It is okay to say no. It is okay to invest what matters to you.” — Janine Botmire [36:14]

• Danielle’s Reflection:
  Danielle reframes the idea of saying no as really saying yes to something else—often, oneself.

  “No spoken from truth is actually a yes to something else. And it's often yourself … Listening to your needs is not selfish, it’s wisdom.” — Danielle Ireland [36:45]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The process of learning is always the same, only always the same, forever. It starts with a problem, an obstacle, a need…”
  — Danielle Ireland [06:00]

• “Learning is rarely graceful, and it doesn’t always look packaged nice or clean…”
  — Danielle Ireland [14:15]

• “We don’t need super women, we need supported women.”
  — Janine Botmire [15:25]

• “Mommy always comes last.”
  — Janine Botmire’s son [34:29]

• “No, Sarah will tell everyone this. … it isn’t going to work for us.”
  — Janine Botmire [30:39]

• “No, spoken from truth, is actually a yes to something else. And it’s often yourself.”
  — Danielle Ireland [36:45]

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Important Timestamps

• [02:27] – Danielle introduces “tech sweat” and the real-time messiness of learning
• [06:00] – Breaking down the iterative spiral of growth
• [14:15] – The process is never neat; embracing the slow, human journey
• [15:12] – Janine Botmire recounts founding City Moms
• [24:20] – The tone and voice behind City Moms’ content
• [29:09] – Making City Moms free and accessible
• [31:15] – The integrity of saying no to misaligned opportunities
• [34:29] – The emotional “don’t cut your own bangs” turning point in Janine’s life
• [36:45] – Danielle’s reflection on boundaries and listening to your needs

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Key Takeaways

• The discomfort of the learning process is normal—and means you’re making progress.
• Growth is a spiral, not a straight line.
• Community is crucial: choosing to support and be supported opens doors and heals old wounds.
• Saying no can be deeply brave and necessary; it’s a way to say yes to your own well-being and your values.
• Laughter, honesty, and compassion make navigating the “messy middle” less lonely and far more human.

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If you’re facing emotional overload or in the thick of your own “messy middle,” this episode serves as both a gentle reminder and an empowering invitation: Trust yourself, honor your needs, and know you’re far from alone.

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Transcript

[Danielle Ireland]

Foreign.

Hello, hello, this is Danielle Ireland. You're catching an episode of don't cut your own bangs. The best lessons of the year all December long that I'm going to be revisiting conversations and moments that really cracked something open or cracked me up, made me look at something differently, or I had the thought that that is the thing I needed to hear again. Because the truth is, as so often is the case, the best lessons bear repeating. And this week's episode is going to be a mashup of two really powerful threads, what it really looks like to learn in real time, and the courage it takes to say a brave and wholehearted no when something isn't working anymore. We're bringing highlights from my conversation with City Mom's founder Janine Bob Meyer, a woman whose story holds a perfect blend of humor, grit and honesty and self trust, and a solo cast moment on what the learning process actually looks like when you are in the middle of a huge mess. This episode is warm, it's real, and it's an invitation to trust yourself more deeply, especially during a season that's filled with a lot of noise, expectation and emotional overload. Let's jump in.

As we find ourselves in the holiday season, I have been thinking a lot about meaningful gifts. The kind that help us slow down, reflect, connect with ourselves and the people we love. If you're looking for something special, I've created two resources that come straight from my heart and my therapy practice. The first is called the Treasured Journal. It is a guided reflection tool built around seven key areas of your life, filled with prompts, sentence stem, stories and space to explore the things that really matter to you, It's a beautiful way to reset, especially especially as we're heading into our new Year. For the little ones in your life, or maybe grown ups who are helping them navigate their emotions, there's also my children's book, Wrestling a Walrus for Little People with Big Feelings. It is a sweet story about a small penguin, a big obstacle, and the power of meeting our feelings with kindness instead of fear. Both make wonderful holiday gifts for friends, family or for yourself, because calm curiosity and connection are gifts we all deserve. You can find both the Treasure Journal and Wrestling a Walrus in the links in the show notes or on my website danielireland.com.

First we're going to kick off with some clips from the solo cast, what it feels like to be learning in real time. And the theme is the middle is messy because it is messy and it does not mean if you are in your mess doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. It just means, oh, this is where I am. I'm in the middle of the shitstorm. To kick us off, I wanna revisit some truths from the solo cast. And in this episode, I am talking specifically through my experience with tech sweat, as I so lovingly call it, when I approach new technology, self doubt, spirals of frustration, and ultimately learning how to see growth as a process and not a pass fail moment. Here's the clip.

And the other thing I wanted to do was reintroduce the intention and the concept of this podcast, which is to make big feelings feel less scary and more approachable. Interpreting the information of our emotions to help guide us into making the next right step for ourselves. Shrinking the gap between knowing what we feel and knowing what we want to do with that feeling is where a lot of tension lives. So I want to help shrink that gap, and then I want to do it in a way that helps us feel light and maybe even have some knowing laughter in the face of our big feelings. Because when we are met with truth, there's an opening and expanding clarity. And sometimes there are tears, which I think can keep people maybe stuck from looking at them because we don't want to cry, which I get. But the other thing I wish everyone could experience is the deep, profound belly laugh that happens in therapy sessions, in treatment rooms, in group therapy, in addiction groups, in the profoundly just, meaningful, vulnerable conversations between friends. The feelings we so often run from are the birthplace of a deeper, more meaningful connection and so much laughter and joy. And that's the hope here. I want to offer a couple of stories, a couple of key takeaways, and then we're all going to go on with our day. The process of learning. The process of learning is always the same. The process of learning is always the same. And I'm saying this multiple times for myself as much as anyone else, because it seems particularly for me when it comes to technology, I have a story about myself in approaching tech. This isn't about unpacking the story or worrying about where the story comes from. That can be another podcast for another time. But today it is about looking at the process of learning. It is always the same. It is often uncomfortable. And I have a story about a client who has gone through, in her own way, a similar iteration with my tech story, with relationships. And it's different experiences, but the lesson and the through line of what it really means to learn something new about yourself and carry that information forward. The process of learning starts with A question, a problem, an obstacle. The question of how do I figure this thing out? In my case, I have been converting my podcast to video. Very exciting. Hello. If you're watching, thanks for watching. Converting the podcast to video has added many layers of new technology.

And excerpt cut to me excessively sweating in a corner thinking about how in the hell am I going to figure this out? How do I do that? How is a great question. Not why can't I figure this out? Why isn't this working? Why does this always happen to me? But once I'm in the process of learning, it almost always starts with a what if? What if this were possible? How could I make it possible? What do I need to do? Just side note, it still looks like amateur hour in comparison to people who have been doing this for a really long time. But I'm also super proud of myself. Both things can be true. I can be an amateur and a novice, which I am in many ways. And I can also be really proud of what I've learned so far, which has been a fuck ton. I have something that's much closer to what I wanted the end product to be. And I figured out actually some really cool functions within the software that I use called descript to try to record my video podcast. So the process of learning is always the same, only always the same, forever. It starts with a problem, an obstacle, a need. Then it leads to a question, a form of curiosity. How would I approach this? How could I figure this out? What if I was able to do this? Is it possible for me to do this? And then I go through the process. The next step after the question is where 90% of the discomfort lives because you're actually muscling through something brand new that you've never done before. Took forever. And then the other was, I know a lot now. I was able to almost in the same moment think, oh, that was really freaking hard. And I know so much more about this. I bet I'm going to be able to do the next one that much better. Knowing what I know. I know how to save. I know how to record. I know how to set up my guest better for success. I know that if, God forbid, all these other things fall apart, I'm also able to now carry this workaround into that with more confidence because I know how to do it now. I know what the functions are. I know all the mistakes I made that I won't make again. And I was actually really proud of myself that knowing what I know now, I know with a much deeper, more Profound sense of knowing that I am capable of figuring this out, I am working with technology, that my old story is really just that, an old story. It's old news and I have new information now that I also need to allow to exist because it is true. At one point in time, technology was really hard for me. I don't know where that origin story came from. But the new element to this process of unlearning for me is adding the other things that are true in a way that is kind and compassionate to myself. Which is, hey, you figured it out. It was hard and uncomfortable and no, you don't want to do it that way again, but you figured it out. I share this because it is so easy to look at lessons in hindsight and only want to reflect on the learnings and takeaways and not actually when you are in that sweaty, uncomfortable, is this ever going to come together? Am I ever going to get there? It's so easy to feel alone in that process. It's so easy to feel incredibly stuck. Because in some ways you may be stuck. It's like trying to move through mud up to your knees and trying to get one foot in front of the other. It just feels so damn slow. And that's not a personality trait if you were having a hard time in that active learning process. It's just your mind knows how to operate in that pattern. It doesn't know how to operate in this new way. So comparing smooth blacktop superhighway to a little pebbled path in a patch of woods behind your house, maybe gonna get to your intended destination, but the path of getting there is gonna look and feel a lot different. Having that information in my peripheral vision as I was experiencing the discomfort earlier this week, helped me out each time. And I wanna highlight this image. Cause it's important each time that this is experienced. What my client has done is another iteration of this learning process. The process of once we get through either the more shame or stress or anxiety inducing questions like why am I not enough? Why isn't this working? Why is this always happening? When we shift that type of questioning to how do I want to be treated? How do I want to feel? Am I treating myself with the kindness and respect that I am expecting of them? Am I treating myself the way I want to be treated? And each step that is positioned through the lens of compassionate curiosity, it's more actionable. It also leads to a more tangible step. It leads you to a new understanding that we never have that situation again. Wouldn't that be Great. But the truth with a capital T is that learning something new feels more like this. And I'm holding up a post it note that shows a little spiral each time we go through the same situation again or the same learning again. For me, it's every time I'm approaching a new piece of technology. In my client's case, we're reflecting on a romantic relationship. What I'm actually measuring my progress in is not that, oh, I'm confronting new technology and feeling stressed. Ugh, I'm failing. Because if I'm looking at it from the stair step point of view, that's when it's going to feel like I'm sliding backwards. But from the lens of this spiral, each time I go deeper, deeper into the spiral, I am able to make the connection sooner. The feeling of discomfort and knowing what to do with that feeling of discomfort. And in this case, again, if you're not watching on YouTube, I'm holding my hands together. And so each iteration of the spiral, my hands are getting closer and closer together. That gap is getting smaller. And my client had this experience today. At the end of a relationship with someone they love and loved dearly, the love doesn't just go away. They realized with this new profound sense of clarity and confidence that.

This relationship was progress by every standard of where they had been before. How do I want to be treated? How do I want to feel? What if I treated myself with the same respect that I'm wanting this other person to treat me? Moved them forward with new information. The relationship ending, while hard because it always is, it's never easy. The relationship ending was a beautiful.

And tender goodbye. Whatever that outcome is, I don't know. I'm not there yet because I'm in this part of the process. But knowing that that's all this is, gives me a sense of relief. Because what my fear is often telling me is that my pain and discomfort are permanent. This will always be hard. This will never get easier. This will never work out. And remembering, okay, this discomfort is very real, and it is a part of a larger process that's going to lead me to something new. Your old stories, they may always be a part of you a little bit. Oh, there's that old story coming up. There it is. And I'm feeling the discomfort of that. But ask yourself some other questions, like, is it true? Is it really true? Is it the same as it was last time? Is it exactly the same? How is it a little different? Those compassionate questions, how and what? What if this worked out? What could I do with this information? How is this maybe working for my benefit? How is this serving me? How can this help me in the future?

Learning is rarely graceful, and it doesn't always look packaged nice or clean, which is often why I can find myself feeling frustrated looking at before and after photos. Because, well, yeah, I don't want the before anymore. And, yeah, the after sounds great, but every single step in between didn't look like the after. And so how do you keep going and what does that process look like? That was what I was hoping to capture in this episode. What you heard wasn't just about technology, but it was also about identity. And it's also about letting go of old stories, about being willing to see ourselves differently and about allowing the process to be slower and softer and maybe even more human than we expected. Now we're moving into one of the most moving moments from this conversation with City Mom's founder, Janine Botmire. Her story about burnout, motherhood and redefining success. The kind of truth telling that stays with you long after you heard it. Now, let's listen together.

I think community building is just a magic skill. And so I want to go back to the early days of sitting. You have some language on your side that I love. You need a village. We have it.

[Janine Botmire]

Yeah.

[Danielle Ireland]

Thinking that we don't need super women, we need supported women. I've also learned that what we offer others usually starts with the healing we need. And so you're a mom of teens now, so can you tell me a little bit about, like, the origin of City Moms and how he went from. I'm imagining having a good idea with your girlfriend to see sitting where you're sitting today, being featured on the Drew Barrymore Show. Yeah.

[Janine Botmire]

I was new to Indianapolis in 2011, so we had moved to the city from Detroit. I'm originally from Michigan, but my husband's from Indy. And in moving here to be closer to his family, I didn't know anybody. And you know, my husband, wonderfully, having grown up here, has a lot of friends that are still here, but he's like, let's go out with Davis and let's have lunch with Johnson. I was like, I don't want to do any of that. Like mom. And at the time I had a one year old and a four year old. So you're just trying to keep your life together in those moments of motherhood anyway. So to be in a new city and just not know one soul was really, I mean, just adds more challenges on top of what you're already facing. So we had been here, and just before I moved, a friend of mine in Detroit said, have you checked out meetup? And I was like, no, what is this? And so she's telling me about meetup, and you can go on. You can kind of filter based on your interests and find a local community. And so I did, and I found a couple moms groups that were in the Indianapolis area. I found that most of the majority of moms communities that we find really across the nation, even today, are tied to one of two things.

[Danielle Ireland]

It's churches or it's school.

[Janine Botmire]

And we didn't have either. I decided that that was the moment to potentially launch my own community, One that was just open to all moms across Indianapolis that didn't have those specific kind of school or church affiliation. And we had a hundred members sign up on the first day.

[Danielle Ireland]

Whoa. I have to pause for just a moment. So you were seeking to meet your own need.

[Janine Botmire]

Yes.

[Danielle Ireland]

And I find that so interesting. That's really telling about you just as a person and how you move through the world is you saw a gap for your own experience and then immediately connected it to what? Like, how do I expand this beyond me?

[Janine Botmire]

Yes.

[Danielle Ireland]

You're like, how do I find my community? How do I find my people? You're like, oh, there aren't people or communities, so I'm gonna build one. That's really interesting.

[Janine Botmire]

Yeah. And for me, it was because I desperately needed community. I desperately was seeking that out. I had never been shy to creating that myself in prior iterations. I was coming out of the advertising industry in Detroit, and even in this really large advertising agency had found my little corner of people at the time had founded a tiny. I forget exactly what we called ourselves, but we were almost like our cheerleading community of the agency itself, where we started to put on little events for this large agency. And it started just because we saw that at the workplace. It was just constant go, go, go in advertising. And there wasn't that pause to connect with, you know, your desk mate or a team member. And so that, for me, is just something that I've always loved doing. But in coming to Indianapolis, recognized I also needed a community here. And without kids in school, without having a church home, without even having a neighborhood that I was close to. Just that gap existed. And I realized it was something I needed to fill.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah. And not only did you. Sounds like filled up for yourself, but then you met a need that many other women in the community had too. Now, how did this. So was Sarah somebody that came with you from Michigan. Did you meet here? How did that connection happen? Yeah.

[Janine Botmire]

So Sarah, my business partner and one of my dearest, dearest. I actually met her. We've known each other seven years now. The City Moms Community and membership was running for years. I was introduced to her through a mutual friend. It was such a funny experience because we were at this mutual friend's house for a dinner, and immediately upon meeting her, I was like, well, this is someone I obviously need to know forever. She just has one of the most dynamic personalities. She's so engaging. She just pulls you right in. And she asked me a question about a dress I was wearing that was from Anthropologie. And she was like, oh, yeah, I have that dress. I think I have that in black. And you're. You're wearing it in, like, a green. And like.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yes, it's like that scene in Stepbrothers. It's like one, two, three Anthropologies.

[Janine Botmire]

Exactly.

[Danielle Ireland]

Exactly.

[Janine Botmire]

And I was like, oh, well, we're obviously besties.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah. Okay.

[Janine Botmire]

And at the time, she was in the process of quitting her nursing job. Yes. I'm really. I think my last day is going to be August 31st, and that happens to be my son's birthday. And she said, I'm just. I've been working so hard at making this change. I'm going to start my own company. And I just. I've needed this push for a long time. And I said, I am going to text or call you on August 31st and find out how it's going. And she was like, are you really? And so there we are. Two months later, I texted her and I said, how's it going? Did you start your own company? Are you making this next move? And she's like, yes. And this is amazing that you remembered. And we just have been close ever since. Hmm. She's one of my absolute favorite people. And as the city Moms has evolved, so has her role. First as a member, then she was a member of our content team, which I'm sure we'll chat about here a little bit. How she's my business partner. Indianapolis is such an incredible city and community to begin with. In just the 14 years that we've been here to see the growth that this area has had, just all of the changes downtown, all of these incredible, like, national events that they bring in, like this weekend, being WNBA All Star Weekend, the city has just shown up for this. They've had the final four, they've had U.S. olympics, pre swim trials. This city knows how to put on a really incredible display on a national level.

[Danielle Ireland]

You know, what you're making me think about is so in the work I do in therapy, particularly when I'm working with someone on their relationship, that the longer you've been with someone or, and you could even insert really any topic, a job, a place you live, in this case, a relationship, it's easy to take for granted what you think about them, and you lose access to maybe the curiosity and the wonder that allows you to continue to discover. I have lived in Indianapolis my entire life. You mentioned living here 14 years. But when I was preparing for this interview and seeing all the places that you're highlighting, there are places I have never been, and I've been here my whole entire life. Just because I think I know, like, this is where I live. Of course I know. There is so much that I don't know. And we're talking about community and we're obviously highlighting city moms, but I think that there are takeaways that can be applied to so many walks of life, which is just when you think you know something for sure, allow yourself a little bit more space. There's just a little bit room for a little bit more wonder and curiosity.

[Janine Botmire]

Yeah, absolutely. I think that takes it back even to the origin of the City Moms. And a big piece of that mission was I wanted to get out and explore this new city and community that we were in. Just didn't have the roots quite yet to do that, and I wanted to do it alongside people as opposed to on my own. And we're talking about all these big events that the city puts on. But the other beautiful thing is the real fabric of the city lives in its people and those that are here. We see so many that are coming in from other communities. We see a lot like you that have lived here for forever. But there's such an incredible mix of people in the city that really make it as special as it is, and I love that.

[Danielle Ireland]

Thank you. That's such a great response. And your love for the city is so felt. And I. I'm curious about when you're in your content, which, by the way, for any everyone listening, everything is linked in the Show Notes, all the social media platforms, City Moms, where you can join the waitlist for their membership program. All of that is accessible to you in the Show Notes. So press pause, sign up, follow all the things, then come back. Because the other thing I love about your content is you layer in a lot of humor. And even though it's not maybe spoken this way. There's this quality of yeah, girl, I've been up like this is messy and I'm also wiping up my own mess. I also have coffee scenes. I also have food in my teeth. Can we just laugh at the ridiculousness of how hard this is sometimes? And I'm curious about how intentional is it? Are there like pillars that you try to hit when you put content out? Like, it must hit these notes and if so, I want to know what they are.

[Janine Botmire]

Yeah, we really do because I think you're absolutely right for us. And I'll just share a little bit behind the scenes for the City Moms in terms of the tone and voice that we are always after in virtually every piece of our content. I think this also comes out of my marketing and advertising background. But the voice and the tone and the brand that we are always aspiring to be is your best friend growing up. And your best friend growing up was the person you confided everything into. Similar to me screaming at Sarah about Drew Barrymore. This is the person. There's your first call. That's your first call, your first text. But your best friend's sister, her older sister growing up was the coolest girl that you ever met. She was the girl that had the full pull up posters on her wall. She had the Dr. Pepper lip smackers. She was watching the pills. And she was the girl that you're like, I want to be her when I grow up. She's the person that is just a few steps ahead from where you are in your current life.

[Danielle Ireland]

Yeah.

[Janine Botmire]

Of age. And you are constantly keeping an eye on her. That voice, that older sister is the one that we always aspire our City Moms brand to be because we have been there, we have sat in those shoes. We have experienced a lot of the mess. But that doesn't mean that we are completely removed and away from it. It means that we are just a couple days ahead of where our sitting mom might be. And all of our content will always ladder into that voice to say, yeah, we know it sucks because we've been there. That to be able to have kind of those humorous moments I think is really critical to making sure that we're connecting with our setting mom followers and prospective members too.

[Danielle Ireland]

That type of humor makes you feel seen. Yes, it helps you feel seen. And I think sometimes, especially someone who like will grab the shovel and help dig into like the pits of experience with clients sometimes having the levity. If there was ever a myth I wish I could bust about Therapy and community, whether it's group or a community, like City Moms or any extension, when you find that type of connection, yes. You can have, like, with a best friend or a best friend's older sister. You can have those moments where maybe a tear or two are shed, but when somebody sees you, there's laughter. That happens in every therapy session that either I've participated in my own therapy or have led somebody else through. There is something about the truth, especially the truth that you try so hard to avoid, or that this is the one thing I just need to keep tucked in my drawer and never let anybody see. But then you see somebody else has it and you're like, you have that dress, too. Oh, my God.

[Janine Botmire]

Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. And I think, too, what's really critical in doing that is just knowing that you are not living a path that is completely unpaved. It is so hard in those moments when you've had two hours of sleep. It's so hard in those moments when you're like, are we ever going to get past this phase? But I think what brings so much comfort along the way is knowing that there are other women that have done that. And for us, that's why it's so critical to have a community that is supportive of each other and really allows you to be in those vulnerable moments with others.

[Danielle Ireland]

What do you think attracts people to you and to your organization? Because, like, anything that you're highlighting could also be Googled.

[Janine Botmire]

Yeah.

[Danielle Ireland]

But there's a way that you offer it and there's a way that you present it that is. It simplifies, it's reliable. There's like this bubbly, sparkling, champagne effervescence to it. It just makes it a little shinier.

[Janine Botmire]

That's such a good question. I don't know. There's some days that I'm like, I have no idea. Yeah, like, we've been doing this for so many years. What are we doing? I really think it's because. And to use your phrase, feeling seen and feeling seen and being a part of a club that is all inclusive and allows everyone to be a part of it, even in some of our content, where we're sharing events that we might have put on for just our membership. So not even just our social media following, our editorial readers, the people at CS and broadcasts and tv, but we do have this community of members as well. So when we put on these membership events that are a little more exclusive, we love to share those out with the phrase steal this idea. Because then it becomes less this is only available to these specific women or these specific members. And make it a. This can be your idea too. So steal this idea.

[Danielle Ireland]

There's something about your community that doesn't beat you over the head with messaging. That's one thing that I was really impressed with is that you get the sense of the essence of what you're saying. But there's not like a slogan. But the sense of the community is so clear. Yeah. Which I find really beautiful.

[Janine Botmire]

I appreciate that. I think one of the things that we've forever wrestled with was, is really that idea of sales. I'm. I and my team has heard me say this a number of times. I've always been a bigger fan of storytelling over sales and storytelling kind of an experience. As opposed to, you should buy in today. Deadline is this day. You gotta get in now. Join here. This is the link. Because we get sold on almost every everything across our lives and it's something as little as the gym to making a donation to a school, your kids school, to just everything else you can think of under the sun. To me, it's important to continue promoting the essence of a community that you belong to as opposed to an idea that you need to buy into with dollars. And that's one of the reasons that we transformed the City Moms into a complete, completely free membership. That also came out of COVID and hearing a lot of sitting moms say, I have to make some concessions right now. We had to shut off Netflix. We're not doing our Netflix subscription anymore because we're just so worried about budget and that 9.99amonth that we were initially charging for membership. I was like, no, done. That's out. Never. We will never go back to a paid membership. It will always be free because it needs to be accessible to everyone. There's a lot of time that we spend really making sure that it's going to make a lot of sense. In fact, one of my favorite things to say is, no, Sarah will tell everyone this.

[Danielle Ireland]

Tell me more about that.

[Janine Botmire]

Just did this yesterday. I love when we are being approached by a particular brand or a client or a prospective partner. And I love going through that vetting process and saying, you know what? We spent some time and looked into this and this isn't going to work for us. Case in point, the brand I turned down yesterday is something that we actually use a lot of. Sarah and I are big fans of a couple of their products and they approached us about a new launch they're doing and said we would love to ship you two of the new products, but we want all of this content. You need to send it to us for review. You can only post on the dates that we want. You need to release it all to us. We can use it for our future advertising. By the way, the cost of the products that we're sending you in total is $300. And the amount of media that was going to be attached to that from our side was about $5,000. We have a staff I need to pay. We have a team that relies on us. We have a full following that relies on us to make sure that we're being authentic in what we are bringing forward. I talked to Sarah about it a little bit and I said I'm going to tell them no. And I'm going to say there's a big value gap here. Not just from the official bottom line kind of payment side of this, but also because I never want to put someone into a brand consideration when that brand's not considering them, just considering their own needs and their own drivers.

[Danielle Ireland]

Oh, that's so strong. And not an answer I expected, but one I so appreciated on a personal level, a professional level. Janine, I would be remiss if I signed off without asking you about your don't cut your own bangs moment because I. It is good. So if you are good taking it away, I would love to hear.

[Janine Botmire]

Yeah, I just want to tell you I love this so much. I've listened to so many of your other podcasts and these are the moments I just feel like really are the ones that sit with me the most. So I'm so thrilled that you have this as kind of just that final vehicle to the podcast content. But mine's a little different because there is a little sadness tied to it, but it brings a great lesson. Yeah, so I had mentioned that I worked in Advertising for 10 years. I worked on the agency side and I was working in Detroit at the time and I had a newborn. My daughter was newborn. And then I had my son who was three years old at the time. And my client was based out of Germany. It's a very large grocery chain that happens to be based in Germany and they have a lot of outputs here in the US and at the time we were all going through just a horrible recession in the world and I was working about 60 to 70 hours a week. Advertising is one of those, especially agency side is one of those industries. It is go, go, go and it is never stopping. My husband also works in advertising. It's actually how we met. He at the time was doing about 90 hours a week. We never saw each other, we rarely saw the kids. So my day normally started around 3am because that's when the German office was open. And it normally coincided with the time I was feeding my newborn in the middle of the night. So I would have my phone with me, feeding her, scrolling through email, catching up with the German team, put her back to sleep. And then I would get up around 6 when my toddler was awake and finally get the two of them off to daycare. And I made the decision, which a male boss of mine later told me was selfish, to go work out at a gym that was halfway between daycare and work every day. So I didn't get into the office until around 8:45. Technically our office started at 9. I would work absolutely all day and then race out of my office at 5:51. Because if I could leave at 5:51, I could literally run down the street to our parking garage, get in my car, drive as fast as I could a daycare and be there before the seven minute grace period was over.

[Danielle Ireland]

You had it down to the minute.

[Janine Botmire]

Down to the minute. And it was coming at a time where it was just. I was so burnt out. My husband was so burnt out. This one day I got to daycare. My kids were always the final ones getting picked up. And I had a phrase for my toddler at the time where I'd always say, mommy always comes back. I would say that to him every morning when I dropped him off. And I ran into daycare this day and my son was crying. I could hear him in the toddler room. So I grabbed the newborn, she was already in her carrier. And I went in to pick him up and he's crying and I said, honey, I'm here. And I got down and gave him a hug and I said, sweetie, what do I always say? Mommy always comes. Ooh, this makes me tear. I've even thinking about all this even later. And he goes last. Mommy always comes last. And that was the most soul crushing thing I had ever heard in my life. And I cried the entire way home. And we put the kids down to bed after dinner and after their bath and I turned to my husband, I said, we cannot do this anymore. I'm done. We're done. We can't keep this schedule going. This is just, this is not going to sustain us anymore. And we made the decision that night that was the end of this work experience for us. And we immediately put resumes and feelers out and that is what made the transition to Indianapolis possible. It took months, but we eventually found ourselves here and it was the best decision that we ever made. And what it all came down to was in my don't cut your own bangs moment was it is okay to say no. It is okay to take that step and is it okay to invest in yourself and your family if that's what really matters to you? I think maybe that's what the critical note is. It's okay to invest what matters to you. To me, that has always been the moment that I have seen the turning point and has really been probably the most critical thing for me.

[Danielle Ireland]

Thank you so much for that story that my whole body, those waves and waves went through with that and you when you said it earlier in the interview, but I can really feel the truth of that in a different way.

Janine's son story is such a powerful reminder that no spoken from truth is actually a yes to something else. And it's often yourself listening to your needs is not selfish, it's wisdom. And lastly, sometimes the moment that breaks you open is also the moment that sets you free. And that may sound easy in this moment for me to say. It's very different when you're the one experiencing it. But that is what makes a lived experience of being in that tender place so powerful. Those types of stories are lifelines to me when I'm navigating my own challenges. Not because it necessarily makes my present moment, but what it does is the perspective I have and my capacity to get through the moment to the next moment. And then ultimately, before I know it, I am in a new place. As we wrap up on week two, I want to leave you with some of the key takeaways that I got from these episodes. Not only do the best lessons bear repeating, but we often find ourselves needing those lessons to be repeated just to make sure we really got it. And that is okay. You're not alone in that process. Courage does not always feel powerful. The way that it looks when we see someone perform a courageous act and the way that it feels and it's experienced in our bodies. It often includes a lot more shaking and sweaty palms and heart racing and pounding in your chest. But when you choose to listen to yourself, something in your life realigns. Learning to trust yourself, listening to your needs and being willing to say this isn't working for me can allow you to build something new instead. That's the heart of this week's episode. Thank you for being here. I am so glad you're joining me in this December series. It's such a joy to revisit these conversations. They were incredible to make the first time and even more fun for me to go back and revisit the second time. Because in the process of trying to find what's really gonna be valuable for this miniseries, I listened in a new way and I got something new, even though I was the one in the conversation originally. If today starts something up in you, a little spark, a little clarity, or a little whisper that's like, ooh, that's for me. Hold onto it, write it down, say it to a friend, speak it into a voice memo. This month is full of noise, but your inner voice, that is where the good stuff lives for you. If you've loved this episode, please remember to rate, review and subscribe to the podcast. It makes such a difference. It helps the podcast new audience and it helps people find this content that need it most. Everything we mentioned today, ways to stay connected, ways to connect with city moms, ways to send your questions in for future solo casts are all linked for you in the show Notes. Thank you for listening. I am truly grateful for you and as always, I hope that you continue to have an incredible day.