Behind the Curtain with Dean Devlin

Summary

Dropping Names ...and other things

Episode: Behind the Curtain with Dean Devlin
Hosts: Brent Spiner & Jonathan Frakes
Guest: Dean Devlin (Producer, Director, Actor, Entrepreneur)
Date: April 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this lively and nostalgia-soaked episode, Brent Spiner and Jonathan Frakes welcome Dean Devlin—a multifaceted Hollywood force behind films like Independence Day, Stargate, and TV hits The Librarians and Leverage. The conversation is a masterclass in Hollywood storytelling, packed with candid career confessions, behind-the-scenes anecdotes, affectionate roasting, and genuine admiration among old friends and collaborators. The trio dives deep into what makes a great set, the fine art of casting, lessons from legends like Al Pacino, and the wild ride of making blockbusters and TV favorites.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dean Devlin’s Hollywood Origin Story

• Jonathan’s "Movie Jail" and Dean’s Rescue
  • Frakes recounts his career dip after Thunderbirds flopped, only to be pulled back into the business by Devlin, who offered him a chance to direct a TV movie in Africa.
  • Quote:
    • “Dean contacts me and says, are you available to go to Africa to direct a TV movie starring Noah Wylie?” — Jonathan Frakes (00:48)
• Early Set Adventures
  • Frakes and Devlin share a harrowing and humorous memory of being shoved out of danger by ADs as elephants crash a shoot in Kenya.
  • Quote:
    • "These elephants come marching." — Dean Devlin (02:41)

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2. Iconic Roles & Improvisation on Independence Day

• Brent’s Casting & Wig Anecdote
  • Spiner describes winning the mad scientist role (Dr. Okun) and negotiating for an iconic wig.
  • Quote:
    • “Can I have long hair? And they got me a wig instantly. $10,000 wig, by the way...” — Brent Spiner (03:29)
• Script Evolution’s Magic
  • Devlin and Spiner explain the “one take as written, then go wild” approach on set, resulting in a third of Independence Day’s dialogue being improvised.
  • Quote:
    • “If you have the right actors, magic happens on set that you can’t produce.” — Dean Devlin (04:46)
• Notable Cast Interactions
  • Laughs about how Brent’s performance shocked veteran actors like Robert Loggia, who initially didn’t get the comedic “winking” tone.
  • Quote:
    • “Am I Leslie Nielsen? Did I completely misunderstand this movie?” — As told about Robert Loggia by Dean Devlin (09:04)

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3. Hollywood Lineage: Devlin’s Family Ties

• Star Trek Roots
  • Dean’s mother, Pilar Seurat, played the psychic princess in the classic Star Trek episode “Wolf in the Fold” (09:19).
  • Dean’s father, Don Devlin, discovered and recommended Steven Spielberg to Universal execs (10:20).
    • Quote:
      • "My father is the one who introduced [Spielberg] to Sid Sheinberg." — Dean Devlin (10:20)

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4. Acting Legends & Set Stories

• Brent’s Star Trek Anecdotes
  • The mix-up of actors mistaking Star Trek for a comedy, with tales of Seymour Cassell and the intimidating Lawrence Tierney (11:00).
  • Quote:
    • “He thought it was a comedy.” — Brent Spiner, on Seymour Cassell (11:59)
• Alcohol & Hollywood Demons
  • Touching and sobering reflections on how substance abuse destroyed or haunted numerous great actors (13:55).

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5. Early TV Careers and First Meetings

• The Show Hard Copy
  • Devlin, Frakes, and Spiner reminisce about the 1980s cop drama where Devlin met Frakes—a guest star as a “killer pimp”—sparking a lifelong professional friendship (14:46).
  • Quote:
    • “By the end of the day, I was in love with the guy.” — Dean Devlin (15:03)

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6. Learning from Legends: Dean’s Years with Pacino

• Driving & Learning from Al Pacino
  • Devlin’s early job as Pacino’s driver/assistant opened doors to deep lessons in acting process, restraint, and the difference between stage and screen craft (21:47, 22:22).
  • Pacino's Lesson:
    • “If the crew laughs, it’s too big. They shouldn’t be able to see what you’re doing. The camera should only see what you’re doing.” — Al Pacino (24:15 recounted by Dean)
• Al Pacino’s Passion for the Craft
  • Pacino personally performs all of Richard III for Devlin to help him "get" Shakespeare—complete with scene explanations, ignoring ADs knocking for set calls (29:38).
    • Quote:
      • “Al gets up, takes the chair, puts it back, and he goes on with the play.” — Dean Devlin on Pacino confronting an annoying theatergoer (28:21)

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7. Casting Stories, Near Misses, & Blockbuster What-ifs

• Real Genius & Kilmer’s Early Days
  • Devlin details his friendships and rivalries with Val Kilmer and Kevin Spacey in their struggling Broadway years (30:10).
• Independence Day Casting Wars
  • Studio battles to cast Will Smith and Kevin Spacey, but only “got one”; how Bill Pullman’s casting changed the President’s role and led to a historic monologue.
    • Quote:
      • “I’m just gonna vomit out two paragraphs now, but we’ll rewrite this later… We were in the border of Utah and Nevada shooting, and—my eyes pop—I never rewrote it. Pullman does the rehearsal, and everyone lost their minds. So I went, 'Yeah, we’ll leave it.'” — Dean Devlin (33:58)

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8. Set Culture, Directing, and Mentorship

• Set Atmosphere & Collaboration
  • Brent and Dean praise Frakes’ directing style, highlighting the energy, positivity, and psychology he brings on set (“Victory now!” moments) (47:09).
  • Quote:
    • “If your instinct is not to do that part, do that part.” — Roy London, cited by Dean Devlin (43:52)
• Casting is Art
  • Frakes and Devlin agree that perfect casting is critical; miscast stars can ruin a movie despite their talents (41:30).
  • Quote:
    • “You can’t survive the wrong casting.” — Dean Devlin (41:57)

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9. New Projects & Looking Ahead

• Electric Now & Original Programming
  • Devlin plugs the Electric Now app: new channels, a fresh comedy (The Poly Couple), Librarian's Next Chapter, The Ark, and an animated comedy Sloan and the Cosmic Schlep featuring Jonathan Frakes. (49:47–50:40)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Movie jail… I didn’t know was a thing.” — Jonathan Frakes on career setbacks (00:30)
• “If we see elephants and they have babies… back up slowly. Not that slowly!” — Jonathan Frakes & Devlin, on hilarious safari dangers (01:53, 02:22)
• “The studio wanted Stephen Dorff… for Will Smith’s role.” — Dean Devlin (32:45)
• “You tell him I’m coming and hell’s coming with me.” — Dean on how star actors can elevate weak lines (45:13)
• “Fuck the universe. That’s always good direction, by the way.” — Brent Spiner on Corey Allen’s motivating style (46:50)
• “If your instinct is not to do that part, do that part.” — Roy London, via Dean Devlin (43:52)
• “Victory now!” — Dean Devlin on Jonathan Frakes’ on-set ritual (47:09)
• “We’ll leave it.” — Dean Devlin on accidentally never rewriting the President’s iconic speech (34:45)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:06—Frakes describes being offered movie during career lull
• 01:53—African shoot: Elephant encounter story
• 03:29—Brent's $10K wig
• 04:46—Devlin’s “one take written, one take wild” improvisation process
• 09:04—Robert Loggia “Leslie Nielsen” confusion
• 10:20—Devlin’s dad, Spielberg connection (“photo of the letter”)
• 15:03—Frakes as “killer pimp” in Hard Copy, meeting Dean
• 21:47—Devlin on being Al Pacino’s driver/assistant
• 24:15—Pacino acting lesson (“if the crew laughs…”)
• 29:38—Pacino performs entire Richard III for Devlin
• 32:45—Independence Day casting wars: Smith, Spacey, Pullman, Stephen Dorff
• 33:58—President’s Speech drafting story
• 41:30—Dean on casting as his greatest skill
• 47:09—Frakes’ “Victory now!” directorial move
• 49:47–50:40—Devlin plugs Electric Now and new projects

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Style & Tone Highlights

• Conversational, witty, with self-aware industry in-jokes and nostalgic camaraderie.
• Generous in praise, unsparing in honesty about failures and fears, with subtle mentoring.
• Heartfelt connections to Hollywood history and “dropping names” of legends, current stars, and cult favorites throughout.
• Full of behind-the-scenes details that demystify the movie business while celebrating its magic.

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For Listeners New & Old

This episode is an essential listen (or read) for anyone enchanted by Hollywood’s golden stories, curious about the alchemy of casting and creative leadership, or eager for vintage Frakes, Spiner, and Devlin at their insightful, irreverent best.

Transcript

[Jonathan Frakes]

Our guest today, before we get into any of the levity. Yeah, I'll embarrass him by telling a quick story.

[Brent Spiner]

Please.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Dean and I go all the way,

[Brent Spiner]

a long way back, but further than me and Dean.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Well, we'll be figure that out. We're gonna start at Hard Copy and talk about that briefly. But I had a nice career going as a director. And I did First Contact, you remember? I recall that Insurrection, then Clock Stoppers we talked about earlier. And then I went to El. To London and did a movie called Thunderbirds.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

In spite of Sir Ben Kingsley and Bill Paxton and others, the movie took a shit. I mean, a really, really bad shit. And I went to movie jail, which I didn't know was a thing. And in. In television, the writer or the producer takes the hit, but in a movie, the director takes the hit, if I'm not mistaken. So we moved back to our summer home in Maine, which we were lucky enough to have. And I was feeling sorry for myself and I was licking my wounds. And out of the blue, Jeanie opened a store. And she just carried on. She was so sick of my self pity. Dean contacts me and says, are you available to go to Africa to direct a TV movie starring Noah Wylie? I supervised the first one, but I'm busy on another project down there. Anyway, you could come down and direct this movie for me. I looked at Jeie, she said, yes,

[Brent Spiner]

you are a dropping name. And other things. Where the whiskey flows and the laughter sings. Pull up a seat Join the game of bread and Johnny Potasho.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Dean Devlin.

[Brent Spiner]

Dean Devlin.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Producer, director, actor, entrepreneur.

[Brent Spiner]

He's done so many things.

[Jonathan Frakes]

We were told on the Scout. Actually, when you scout in Africa, especially in Kenya, you're on a truck with somebody and there's a guy on the roof with a gun. And he says to us, if we see elephants and they have babies, if we're out of the truck, they say, back up slowly, right? So sure enough, we saw elephants and there were baby elephants. And they looked at us and we backed up slowly. And the guide says, not that slowly.

[Dean Devlin]

There's this great outtake I have from your shoot. And there was no sound running, so you can't really tell, but you see the actors. It's an idyllic scene, beautiful thing. And all of a sudden, in the middle of the dialogue, the AD comes in and just starts pushing people out of the shot. And I'm like, what's going on? And just. They're out of the shot. These elephants come watching.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh my God.

[Jonathan Frakes]

What was your first time with Dean.

[Brent Spiner]

Well, Independence Day, right?

[Jonathan Frakes]

I auditioned the movie. I don't know how it did in the box office, but I did hear it.

[Brent Spiner]

It was a nice little picture. It recouped its. Its initial investment. Yeah, I. I auditioned for Dean. Yeah, that. That was. That was one of the great experiences

[Dean Devlin]

of my life for me, too, because I was a giant fan of yours. I was like. You were like a hero to me. So when I had you on set and playing, like, my favorite character, it was just like heaven.

[Brent Spiner]

His favorite character?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah. You know what it was? The wig.

[Brent Spiner]

Just wanted you to know that.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Data. Was Data your favorite character or your favorite character in a movie?

[Dean Devlin]

Was the doc in that movie? That was my favorite character. But, yeah, Data. I mean, come on.

[Brent Spiner]

But it was such an amazing experience for me. First of all, when you cast me, which was very quickly. I mean, I came in, I auditioned for you, you filmed it, showed it to Roland, Roland Emmerich. And the next day I got a call. Oh, okay, wait a minute. Roland, thank you. And I called back and I said, can I have long hair? And they. They got me a wig instantly. $10,000 wig, by the way, which at the end of the film, I said, can I keep it? And they said, no, we may need to use it again if we do a sequel. And 20 years later, they opened that box and the thing looked like, you know, it was horrible. So they had to get me another wig. But it was also because of who I got to work with. And working with you, Dean, and working with Roland was such a joy on that picture because there was a style where there was the script, but everybody had ideas as we were shooting.

[Jonathan Frakes]

That's how Dean rolls.

[Brent Spiner]

And it was just great to be able to go, oh, oh, that was good. But now this. Let's do it again and add this piece to it, and then add this piece to it. And then it just became so much fun to work.

[Dean Devlin]

I had a big belief that if you have the right actors, magic happens on set that you can't produce. So Roland and I always had this rule. One take as written just in case, and then just go for it. Go for it and see what happens. And I'd say on the end result on that picture, at least a third of the dialogue happened on set.

[Jonathan Frakes]

No kidding. Pullman.

[Brent Spiner]

Well, yeah, Goldblum. Goldblum, who's a great guy, Bill Pullman, who's salt of the earth, you know, who really thrilled me to work with. Well, let me also just mention Jim Rebhorn, who was wonderful. Rebhorn and Oliver Schol. Yeah. But Robert Loggia just. I was like. When I first came on, they just kind of threw me into this scene. I mean, I was in makeup. They put the wig on. And in the script, if you read the script, the original script, he's just a doctor. And we'd kind of evolved into him like mad doctor. Somebody who had probably gone to Berkeley in the 60s. And.

[Dean Devlin]

Well, what you said at the time is, you said, well, Area 51 is such a secretive place. He goes, this guy's probably been in a hole for 10 years.

[Brent Spiner]

Right? So he's a little nutty. But if you just read the script, which most of the other actors had, they didn't know what our take was going to be. So literally, they were. I don't know if they were shooting or rehearsing or what, but all the guys enter together. Pullman, Goldblum, Robert Loggia, Jim Rebhorn, the whole bunch of them. And I come down and meet them. Me and John Story is behind me. And I go in to meet them and Mr. President. And I could see in their faces, oh, my God, what is this? Cause they had read the script and he was a doctor.

[Jonathan Frakes]

They hadn't imagined you. No.

[Brent Spiner]

And we did the whole scene. We said, cut. They said, cut. Bill Pullman threw his arms around me, and I thought, oh, good, thank God. But I could see in Robert Loja's face, what's going on here. Wait a minute. It said a doctor. This guy's a doctor. But he didn't quite trust it. And then we shot a scene like the next day where the doors open up on the giant alien ship. And we were all behind the door because the camera's on the other side of the door. Doors open up, and we're looking at the ship. And Robert was standing next to me. And when I was a kid, they did a thing on Disney. It was. It was three different shows. One of them was Robert Loggia in the Nine Lives of Alfago Baca. He was a. A Mexican, like a lot of your early roles. We'll get to that. El Faygo Baca. The Tom Tryon in Texas. John Slaughter. And I don't remember what the third one was, but I loved the opening song from the Nine Lives of Il Fago Baca. So right before the doors open, I looked at him and I went, robert, all I can remember is the nine Lives of El Faygo Baca. And he burst into song and did the whole song for me. And we were buds. After that, everything was good.

[Dean Devlin]

Well, I adored. I adored him. On his first day on the set, he showed up with a black and white photograph of himself and my mother from the TV series. Then came Bronson.

[Brent Spiner]

Wow. Michael Parks. Give me a ding.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Come on.

[Dean Devlin]

That blew my mind. But to help explain that reaction that you got shortly after that, we filmed the scene on Air Force One when Judd hurst says, Area 51. You've got everything in the Area 51. And I wasn't on set for that. And it wasn't going well at all. And Roland was getting frustrated, and Roland went to the bathroom or something. And I arrive on set, all the actors are really, like, not knowing how to do the scene. And I said, well, you know, it's a comedy scene. And they went, what? I said, yeah. I said, play this for last. Play this one for fun.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

And Loggia got so upset, he ran over to Roland and goes, am I Leslie Nielsen? Did I completely misunderstand this movie?

[Brent Spiner]

Wow. Excellent.

[Dean Devlin]

We were like, no, no, no. It just. It knows what it is and it winks at the audience.

[Brent Spiner]

That's it. Yeah, absolutely.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Your mother, Pilar.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah. Your mother was an actress.

[Dean Devlin]

So I actually predate both of you in Star Trek.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh.

[Dean Devlin]

Because my mother was on the original Star Trek.

[Brent Spiner]

Really? Yes.

[Dean Devlin]

In the Wolf in the Fold episode,

[Brent Spiner]

what did she play? Cause the audience will know.

[Dean Devlin]

Yeah. So in the Wolf in the Fold episode, they go to this planet of all women, and there is a princess there who's a psychic princess, and she gets killed by Skadi.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Oh.

[Dean Devlin]

And that was my mom.

[Brent Spiner]

Wow. Amazing. I had no idea.

[Jonathan Frakes]

How do you say Mom's last name?

[Dean Devlin]

Her acting name was Pilar Seurat, which was hilarious because my father thought it'd be a good last name for. From the painter sir. But my mom didn't understand it, and so she thought it was Pilar Sakrat, which was those. The. The lozenges of the time. So she had to learn her. Her acting name.

[Jonathan Frakes]

His father, Don Devlin.

[Brent Spiner]

Yes.

[Jonathan Frakes]

According to what I read, and I didn't know this until the other day, discovered first, we'll give Don one.

[Brent Spiner]

Let me guess. Steven Spielberg. Is that right?

[Dean Devlin]

Sort of.

[Brent Spiner]

Yes.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah, sort of. It's good enough.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

It's dropping names. We got Spielberg's name in the fucking show.

[Dean Devlin]

Spielberg. As everyone knows, Spielberg had kind of like, gotten himself onto the lot at Universal. My father was an executive at Universal. My father saw his 8 millimeter film and said, we gotta do something with this guy. He's great. And my father is the one who introduced him to Sid Sheinberg, who gave him the job. Now my dad told me that story growing up, but I always thought he was just taking credit for Steven Spielberg. And then one day I'm at the Steven Spielberg Museum at Universal and the very first exhibit is the photo of the letter. My father recommending him for the job.

[Brent Spiner]

Come on.

[Dean Devlin]

So I took a picture of the photo because they weren't going to give it to me. And the picture of the photo is in my office.

[Brent Spiner]

Wow.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Wow, what a great story.

[Brent Spiner]

You know the story you told about Loja thinking this was, you know, he was Leslie Nielsen. We did an episode of Next Generation. It was kind of the antithesis of that where we had an actor who. Wonderful actor by the name of Seymour Cassell. Seymour Cassell. Two time Oscar nominee, best actor and best supporting actor and probably the most unknown by the general public. Two time Oscar winner. Oh. In all the Cassavetes movies and terribly wonderful, absolutely terrifying. But he did not know what Star Trek really was. And so he was of a mind that it was a comedy. And there was a moment where he was talking to an alien race about something and they said, we're going to blow you away or something. And they were on the view screen. And he's looking at the view screen and he goes, uh oh. And we all started laughing and he went, what? What? And we said, well, he says he's gonna kill us. And he goes, wait, this isn't a comedy. He thought it was a comedy. And what about his entrance to this?

[Jonathan Frakes]

He, he.

[Brent Spiner]

No, no, that wasn't Seymour, who was that? That was. I know what you're thinking. Larry Tierney. Lawrence Tierney.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Tierney, another actor. Do you remember that name? Yeah, he was impatient, let's say at the Paramount gate.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

And then it. And drove through and busted the gate down. So they called the soundstage to let us know that Lawrence Tierney was on the lot and ready to work.

[Brent Spiner]

Have we told that story before on the show? I don't.

[Jonathan Frakes]

We've been known to repeat stories.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah, well, I'm repeat. Well, Lawrence Tierney was famous in the 40s for playing Dillinger. That was his. Okay, his ticket. But he was really, really had a problem with alcohol and he was ultimately banned from several studios for hitting people. And, and we were scared of him. Yeah, he was scary. He was a big guy. He was in Reservoir Dogs. He's one of the collars, Mr. Somebody. He's a large, older bald headed guy and they, they, they almost fight. I think Tarantino fired him from that and then brought him back because he did something frightening. If he didn't get his way, he would go and he'd raise his fist like that. It really was scary. And Patrick actually said to me one day, I'm scared.

[Jonathan Frakes]

But I love when you do Patrick. Yeah, One more time.

[Brent Spiner]

I'm scared. But what finally stopped it was they asked for quiet. And Larry Tierney was still talking and Patrick said. They said quiet. And he went, okay, Picard. Okay, okay. And. And that was the end of that. He did a Seinfeld and he scared them on that set too. He pulled a knife and they were afraid he was going to use it. But he was a really good actor.

[Dean Devlin]

How many great careers have we seen ruined through alcohol and drugs?

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Oh, boy.

[Dean Devlin]

I mean, so sad.

[Brent Spiner]

And some not ruined. You know, Tracy was the biggest drunk of all time, apparently. And.

[Jonathan Frakes]

And one of the top five actors,

[Brent Spiner]

one of the greatest actors that ever lived.

[Dean Devlin]

Don't let him catch you.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Anyway, my first gig with Brent. With Brent?

[Brent Spiner]

You're.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Brent Dean was on the television series that he was a regular on called Hard Copy. Have you ever heard of the show?

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

Wait, one season?

[Jonathan Frakes]

One season? Not even a full season.

[Dean Devlin]

That's right.

[Brent Spiner]

Were you the lead on the show?

[Dean Devlin]

It was three leads. It was Michael Murphy.

[Brent Spiner]

Murphy.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Hold on. One of Altman's actors, right?

[Dean Devlin]

Yeah, Wendy Crewson.

[Brent Spiner]

Wendy. I know Wendy.

[Dean Devlin]

Who ended up marrying.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah, he married her. I did a TV movie with her.

[Dean Devlin]

We were the three leads.

[Brent Spiner]

Is that right? Tv. I did a TV movie with her that was directed by Lee Rose.

[Jonathan Frakes]

We were downtown LA and we just clicked. Was that the first time we had met?

[Dean Devlin]

Jonathan is our guest star and he's playing a killer pimp, as you do.

[Brent Spiner]

Wow.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Similar to the killer drug dealer you

[Brent Spiner]

played on each other before.

[Dean Devlin]

Yeah, that was the first time I met him. So he comes on set and he's arrogant and very self confident. And I'm thinking, I'm not gonna like this guy. And by the end of the day, I was in love with a guy, so.

[Brent Spiner]

But that's a great cast. I mean, Murphy was good trying to stay in character. Love when he cruised. Yeah, that's.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah, I'm over that kind of method shit.

[Dean Devlin]

No, you were definitely watching him as the guy.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Exactly. It was one of my first jobs.

[Dean Devlin]

Was it really?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah, it was early. It was 80s. Early 80s. Certainly pre star Trek.

[Dean Devlin]

Oh, way before. Because I remember when Star Trek came out again. I'm a giant Star Trek nerd. And I saw you. I started screaming at the tv. The killer pimp.

[Jonathan Frakes]

The killer pimp.

[Brent Spiner]

When I was doing Independence Day. I demanded that Everybody call me Dr. Okun.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah, you were that kind of guy.

[Brent Spiner]

Exactly. I'm that kind of actor.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Dean and I went on to develop a script that we both loved called Steve Was Here. Have you ever told you about this? I know.

[Brent Spiner]

Wonderful.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Norm Steinberg.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah, Norm Steinberg. Very good writer.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I want to meet a Norm.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah, for sure. Well, what was. What was this series called?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Steve Was Here.

[Brent Spiner]

Steve Was Here.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Wonderful script.

[Brent Spiner]

Who was in it?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Nobody.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh, nobody. Never got mad.

[Jonathan Frakes]

We had. We ran into legal issues with another person. But he wrote My Favorite Year, which is one of your favorite movies, as I recall. Yeah, I love Uncle Normie. Yeah, he was fabulous.

[Dean Devlin]

I think my only negative with him is he was so damn funny in the meetings. We got very little done.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

He just cracked us up endlessly because

[Jonathan Frakes]

he was a Mel Brooks guy.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah. Brilliant. Well. So, Dean, let me ask you this. I want to know who have you worked with or met been in a room with that you really could not believe you were standing there with this person?

[Dean Devlin]

So many. Because I'm a complete. I'm more of a fan than I am a filmmaker.

[Brent Spiner]

Certainly I'm more of a fan than I am an actor.

[Dean Devlin]

And not just because I'm in this room. Both of you. That's how I feel. No, seriously. I mean, thank you.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

Huge fan. I mean, if we weren't friends, I would be trying to get your autograph at the convention. I mean, in seriousness, I would also say that I had the pleasure of directing David Tennant.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh.

[Dean Devlin]

And I'm also a huge Doctor who fan.

[Jonathan Frakes]

That's a great movie.

[Dean Devlin]

Thank you.

[Jonathan Frakes]

That's a wonderful underseen movie. And shot.

[Brent Spiner]

Tell me the name of it again.

[Dean Devlin]

Bad Samaritan.

[Brent Spiner]

Bad Samaritan. Yeah. With David Tennant.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Tennant.

[Brent Spiner]

He's a terrific actor and a great guy.

[Dean Devlin]

Well, that's the thing, is he was playing a horrible serial killer.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

And when I would say, action, his eyes would go. I mean, he'd have shark eyes. You know, that dead eye thing. And out of the corners of my eyes, I would see the entire crew kind of going like this every take. And then soon as I'd say, and cut, he'd go. How was that? Was that all right? He was so sweet.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah. Very nice. Very nice person.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Wonderful actor.

[Brent Spiner]

He had a really good actor.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Ranger Broadchurch.

[Brent Spiner]

Good Samaritan. How'd the movie do?

[Dean Devlin]

Terrible.

[Brent Spiner]

Really? Did you write the movie?

[Dean Devlin]

I did not write the movie, but I found the movie and I worked with the writer on it. As far as I'm concerned, that's the first feature I directed, because Geostorm I never finished, so I don't consider that really my film. And I love.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Did you not direct Eight Legged Frakes?

[Dean Devlin]

No. Roland and I had this idea to do a throwback to the, you know, the 1950s giant spider movies.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

And while we were playing around with the idea, someone shows us a short film from Australia, and it's called Larger Than Life. And. And it's done in black and white, and it's about giant. And it was perfect. It was like, oh, my God, that's the movie. This is the guy. We're gonna hire this guy to direct the movie. So we developed the script, we set it up at Warner Brothers, he's gonna direct the film. And this is just before a big strike, so we know that we've gotta get this thing in. So a week before we go to shoot the movie, I get a call from somebody in Australia and they say, I know that Ellery told you he directed that short, but he didn't. I direct that short. And he put my name on it. Now, I don't know if that's true or not, but now, in a panic, yeah. I show up in Arizona and it's clear this guy has no idea how

[Brent Spiner]

to direct a picture.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Oh, shit.

[Dean Devlin]

And I can't. And I've never. I hadn't worked with Warner Brothers before at this point, so. And I'm the one who hired the director. And so this is panic time. This is sheer panic time. So I end up sitting next to him for the shoot. Roland Emmerich takes a whole other crew to shoot all the second unit stuff, and Peter Winther gets another crew to do an action unit. So we're all separated. We're not even talking to each other. We're just trying to get the film shot.

[Brent Spiner]

Wow.

[Dean Devlin]

The film is finished and we go to edit it, and I basically pushed a comedy. Roland directed a horror movie and Peter did an action film, and it did not cut together at all. So we spent a year in post.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh, my God.

[Dean Devlin]

Just redoing, adding effects, doing all kinds, and finally it came together. And the irony is, it might be my best reviewed movie, but the audience went, boo, spiders. Uh, not gonna watch it.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I wanted to ask a question for you. For the record, I remember when I first met you, people said behind your back that you had been the driver for. Or the chauffeur to.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah, I've heard this. Yeah. So you've met someone big. Really big.

[Dean Devlin]

It was A crazy.

[Brent Spiner]

How about that one?

[Jonathan Frakes]

How about that? Dropping names. I knew that was gonna work.

[Dean Devlin]

So, yeah, I was working at a place called Furco in New York City, which stood for Film Equipment Rental Company.

[Brent Spiner]

I thought that would be in the garment district.

[Dean Devlin]

Ferco, this guy named Robert Colsberry, he's a upm, or was a UPM at the time. And he came in, he goes, I've heard great things about you here. What do you really want to do? And I said, well, ultimately I want to produce and direct. And he said, well, I'm doing a Martin Scorsese movie. Would you like to be a PA on the movie? And I went, yeah, I'm in, I'm in. So I gave.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Wait a minute, Scorsese.

[Dean Devlin]

There you go. So I gave a two week notice. I trained a new guy to take over my job. And I showed up for my first day of work. And Colesberry goes, oh, I forgot to call you. What do you mean? He goes, I have to hire Scorsese's nephew. I go, well, I quit my job. He goes, yeah, I feel bad. You feel bad? I can't pay my rent. So I go back to my apartment and I'm just a wreck because I liked my job that I just lost and I don't have a job. The next day he calls me and he goes, how'd you like to be Al Pacino, chauffeur? And I went, what? And he goes, pacino was visiting De Niro on the set and saw that De Niro had a young guy driving around and he goes, I need a guy like that. And I said, I got the perfect guy for you. So I became his driver slash assistant for three years. Three years.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Isn't that cool?

[Brent Spiner]

Wow. And was that a good gig? Did you enjoy it?

[Dean Devlin]

It was incredible because having grown up in Los Angeles, anybody who had a photo on her resume was an actor. There was no other qualifications. But at that time, at least in New York, you have to be a real actor. Yeah, yeah. You had to know your stuff. So Al introduced me to a whole world I didn't know. And he introduced me to Lee Strasberg. And I just got involved in a whole other way of thinking about acting. And he was very generous in talking to me about his process and what he was doing.

[Brent Spiner]

Well, there's nobody better than Pacino remarkable.

[Dean Devlin]

But I'll tell you this. Cause this is interesting. He's doing the rehearsals for American Buffalo, and I'm watching them, David Mamet. And he's terrible. I mean, I'm watching it, I'm like, what is going on here? And I think he sees me out of the corner of the eye, kind of like shocked. Afterwards, he comes over and he goes, dean, I want you to know my instinct is to overact. So when I rehearse, sound like somebody, you know.

[Brent Spiner]

You talking about me.

[Dean Devlin]

I'm sorry.

[Jonathan Frakes]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Dean Devlin]

So he said, when I rehearse, I get it all out of my system.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Oh, that's smart.

[Dean Devlin]

And so that's what he would do. He would rehearse and wildly overact. And then when it came time to do it, he had exercised it out.

[Brent Spiner]

Sometimes that's. He leaves it on the screen.

[Dean Devlin]

Well, I'll tell you. So at the same time he was doing that, he was doing this movie called Author. Author.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah, yeah, I saw that. That's. Oh, well, of course, I can't think of the guy's name who wrote it. Arthur. Well, Arthur. Arthur Killer. Arthur. Arthur Hiller directed, but it was written by. Arthur Hiller gets one.

[Dean Devlin]

The father of one of the Beastie Boys was the writer of the script.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah, but a famous writer, New York writer. Herb Gardner. No, no, Herb Gardner.

[Jonathan Frakes]

It'll come to us.

[Dean Devlin]

Yeah, but anyway, so he's shooting the movie now. I'm watching him do the play every night, and I'm watching him do the movie. And one day we're driving back to the apartment after a day of shooting, and I said, al, do you not like this director or like this movie? And he goes, what do you mean? I said, well, you know, I see you in the play every night and I'm watching you on set, and it feels to me like you're phoning it in.

[Jonathan Frakes]

And I'll said, just Al Pacino.

[Dean Devlin]

Yeah. And Al said, you're coming with me to dailies tomorrow. So we came to Daly's, and I sat there and I saw his work on the big screen. I was like, oh, my God. And he said, dean, if the crew laughs, it's too big. They shouldn't be able to see what you're doing. The camera should only see what you're doing. And that was the huge lesson.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Huge lesson.

[Dean Devlin]

Completely different performance on screen than what I saw standing on the sidelines on set.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Geez. The camera picks up what you feel.

[Brent Spiner]

Wow, that's interesting. I remember that exact time in history because I remember when he did American Buffalo for the first time. And also there was a kid in Author. Author who played one of his kids in it, who had played my son on stage in a play called Table settings.

[Dean Devlin]

Okay.

[Brent Spiner]

And, yeah, James Lapine wrote table settings.

[Jonathan Frakes]

But did he direct Sunday in the Park?

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah, he directed Sunday in the park, and that's why I was in it, because I had done table settings. But, yeah, that was not the original. Like American Buffalo. I saw Robert Duvall in American Buffalo.

[Dean Devlin]

That was the first. And with Charles Durning.

[Brent Spiner]

No, it was Ken McMillan.

[Dean Devlin]

Ken. Kenny McMillan.

[Brent Spiner]

Yes. Great actor.

[Dean Devlin]

Yes.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

Was that at the Long Wharf?

[Brent Spiner]

Well, they probably started there. I saw it on Broadway, and actually, the night I saw it, I was sitting in the balcony. And he comes out. This is the first line of the play. He says, ruthie and Teach.

[Dean Devlin]

I can do that monologue, by the way.

[Brent Spiner]

Can you? It's a great monologue.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Is that your audition monologue?

[Dean Devlin]

That became my audition monologue.

[Brent Spiner]

Give us a little bit and you still remember it.

[Dean Devlin]

Fucking Ruthie. Fucking Ruthie. Fucking Ruthie. Fucking Ruthie. Fucking Ruthie. Fucking Ruthie. I come into the riverside. I sit down. I want. They're placed across the Volt. Wait. Oh, now I'm messing it up. I come into the riverside, Plates, crest of stuff all over. We shoot the shit, talk about the game. So on down I sit. Hi. Hi. I reach over to grab a piece of toast off of Grace's plate. She goes, help yourself. Help myself. Half a piece of toast. I should help myself for a nickel. Anyway, it goes on.

[Brent Spiner]

That's great. That was fabulous. I love it. You know, I could do my bar mitzvah speech if you like.

[Dean Devlin]

I'll do it.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Let's have it.

[Brent Spiner]

Well, it started like this. I said, February 2, 1949, there's an occasion that I can hardly remember. But 13 years later tonight, as I stand on this pulpit, remembrance of this occasion will be an everlasting light in my life. And then I hit the mic and I said, take my Tefillin, please, but no laugh, nothing. But the night I saw.

[Dean Devlin]

I love this.

[Brent Spiner]

The night I saw your son stole

[Jonathan Frakes]

the show with his speech at Berman's birthday party. By the way, sidebar.

[Brent Spiner]

Kind of brilliant, actually. My son's a screenwriter. In case you run across him, you'll like him a lot, Jackson.

[Jonathan Frakes]

He's brilliant.

[Brent Spiner]

The night that I saw American Buffalo, Duvall's doing that opening speech. And I think there was a guy on the front row who was asleep.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Hold on.

[Brent Spiner]

Duvall first mentioned Kenny McMillan was playing the guy who owns the shop. And on his desk was a Planter's Peanuts can filled with peanuts. And Duvall's doing that speech you just did. And as he's doing it. He reaches in and grabs a handful of peanuts and. And throws them at this guy in the front row and never stops. Just keeps going. And you see the guy jump awake.

[Dean Devlin]

And I have a similar story.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

So when Al was doing it, I literally watched 103 performances. He never did it the same way twice.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

But one night, there's some guy in the front row taking flash pictures during the show. And I can see Al's getting angrier and angrier. And the thing that made Al so great is you never knew what he was gonna do. He felt. He felt really explosive. Anyway, at one point, the guy takes a flash picture, and Al grabs a chair, lifts it up, comes running across the stage. Now, by the way, I should say that the stage was a horseshoe shape.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

So he comes running across the stage, and he slams right in front of where the guy was. And he sits in the chair, leans in, he leans into the guy. The guy takes his picture. Al gets up, takes the chair, puts back, and he goes on with a play. And the guy didn't take another picture.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh, my God.

[Dean Devlin]

But we all thought he was gonna kill again.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah. I would have been terrified. I'd still be terrified just to be in a room with Al Pacino. But he's a nice guy, Right?

[Dean Devlin]

I would tell you, in the entire time I worked with him, other than on stage, I never heard him raise his voice.

[Brent Spiner]

Huh. Ever looking forward to this King Lear that he's been working on for a long time, apparently. I mean, an amazing cast.

[Jonathan Frakes]

He has been working on that for a long time. Yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

Well, I have a Richard III story with him.

[Brent Spiner]

Cause he did.

[Dean Devlin]

He did that movie looking for Richard.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah. And he rehearsed that forever and shot it forever.

[Dean Devlin]

So while we were doing Author Author, Al had hired an entire group of actors and a director to do Richard III at his house for his friends. And he had Richard III on his coffee table in the trailer. And I looked at it, and I said, you know, I really love Shakespeare. I said, but that's the one play. I never got it. I just don't get it. He goes, what do you mean you don't get it? I said, I just. I don't know. I can't relate to it. And he was so mad at me, he stood up and by heart, did the entire play. Every character.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh, my God.

[Dean Devlin]

Stopping to explain each scene. The ads are knocking on the door, Al, you're one on set. I'm in the second act.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Wow.

[Dean Devlin]

And he did the entire play for me, explaining Every single scene.

[Brent Spiner]

Well, let me ask you this.

[Jonathan Frakes]

You got one? I got one. Okay.

[Brent Spiner]

Because I'm still interested in your acting career.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I was going to go.

[Brent Spiner]

I got a couple here I want to. Okay, well, let me do.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I got you.

[Brent Spiner]

Maybe the same one you had. I doubt it. And there's a crossover here, but real genius. Ah, yes, you're in real genius.

[Dean Devlin]

I am in real genius.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah. Martha Coolidge. Yeah, I. I've did three films for Martha Coolidge of four, actually. Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

And with Jack Lemon and Walter Mathau.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

Oh, my God.

[Brent Spiner]

And I did the Introducing Dorothy Dandridge with Halle Berry for her and did a really awful thing called Material Girls with the Duff Sisters.

[Dean Devlin]

I didn't realize that was her.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

And. But I did a PBS movie too, that Eudora Welty wrote, which was fantastic. And she sent me the book signed, of course, it was In My Fire, so I've lost everything. But. So Val Kilmer, that's his first role. Really?

[Dean Devlin]

I don't know. I think it was his first role.

[Brent Spiner]

I think it's his first film role.

[Dean Devlin]

He might have done the James Bond rip up. What was it? Top.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh, yes. Top Guy. No, Top.

[Dean Devlin]

You know what I'm talking about.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

So. All right, well, I'm gonna give you a different in. And you can the bell on this one. So Val Kilmer went to Chatsworth High School with Kevin Spacey.

[Brent Spiner]

Right.

[Dean Devlin]

I went to North Hollywood High School. We used to compete against each other and we got to know each other. We were all in New York at the same time. Kevin and Val went to Juilliard and I was working for a living. But the three of us all got cast at the exact same time on plays on Broadway. Kevin got Ghosts, Allman's Ghosts.

[Brent Spiner]

Uh huh. I saw that.

[Dean Devlin]

And he won the Tony for that. Yeah, that was his first. Val got King Lear and he quit the night before opening.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Holy shit.

[Dean Devlin]

Ruining the play.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh, boy.

[Dean Devlin]

And I got James Kirkwood's There Must Be a Pony. And we closed in previews.

[Brent Spiner]

Wow.

[Jonathan Frakes]

It's a glamorous profession, isn't it?

[Brent Spiner]

As I recall, you initially wanted Kevin Spacey to play the President in Independence Day.

[Dean Devlin]

That's right.

[Brent Spiner]

And the studio wouldn't have it.

[Dean Devlin]

So there were two roles we were fighting big time for. One was Will Smith and the other one was Kevin Spacey.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Will won.

[Brent Spiner]

Right. What's that, Will?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Guess one.

[Dean Devlin]

Yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

Of course.

[Dean Devlin]

In spite, of course, Unusual Suspects had just played at the Sundance Film Festival. And I said to the studio, we can get him for 200k. Now he's gonna win an Oscar in a year, and it's gonna be 2 million. You know, we should get him. And we really wanted Will Smith, and the studio didn't want either one of them. The studio wanted Stephen Dorff.

[Brent Spiner]

Stephen Dorff, Yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

Yeah. For the president? No, for the Will Smart.

[Brent Spiner]

For the Will Smith role.

[Dean Devlin]

And they wanted Bill Pullman for president. The president. So we were fighting and fighting and fighting. And then finally he said, all right, you get one. Which one of the two? And it was like, okay, well. Cause I had written the president originally, as you didn't trust him. The original thing was that you think he's kind of a villain character until he gets in the airplane. And then you realize, oh, wait, he's good. Once it was Pullman, it was like, oh, no, he's good. From the first, I went and rewrit the whole part, and I loved what he did.

[Brent Spiner]

It couldn't have been better. I mean, that choice that you and the studio made, those two choices could not have been more right. And I mean, I can't imagine another actor doing that speech than Bill Pullman. He just did it so perfectly.

[Dean Devlin]

But that's a real example of performance over script. So I don't know if you know the story about that speech, but when we were writing the script, I said to Roland that this was a pivotal moment in the movie. I said, this is the Henry IV speech. You know, this is the Saint Crispin's Day speech.

[Brent Spiner]

Saint Crispin's Day.

[Dean Devlin]

So I said, that's what this is. He sees that they're scared, and he puts the courage in them. And it's an important moment. Rowan looks at me and goes, oh, great. We just gotta write Shakespeare monologue. A Shakespeare monologue that's as good as the Saint Christmas Day speech. And I said, well, look, here's what we're gonna do. I said, I'm just gonna vomit out two paragraphs now, but we'll rewrite this later. You know, just know that we'll put a circle on this. And we sold the script quickly. We're making the movie. We were in, you know, that border of Utah and Nevada where we were shooting. And I'm in the office and someone says, oh, they're about to shoot the President's speech. And my eyes pop. I never rewrote it. And I went into a panic, and I came running to the set. And just as I arrived, he did the first rehearsal, and everyone lost their minds. And I went, I, yeah, we'll leave

[Jonathan Frakes]

it I think we'll.

[Brent Spiner]

That one such a great speech. And he just does it. So, I mean, I'm ready to go fight when he does it. It's that kind of speech. It's fantastic.

[Dean Devlin]

He killed it. Yeah, Absolutely killed it.

[Brent Spiner]

Really did.

[Dean Devlin]

7. Mike Tyson story.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Oh, good, Here we go.

[Dean Devlin]

So in the early 80s, I used to hang out at the Improv. Remember the Improv?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Sure.

[Dean Devlin]

And I was a regular, so I knew everybody. And Mike Tyson came in with a group of guys to watch the comics. And they were getting rowdy, they were getting unruly. So owner of the club comes over to the bouncers and say, you gotta kick Tyson out. And the bouncer's like, you want us to throw Tyson out? He goes, you gotta. He's disrupting the whole thing. The night's gonna be ruined. You gotta get him out. And the two guys are like. They're trying to figure out how to do this. And I walked in, I said, no, no, not them. And I pointed to the bartender. I go, howard. And Howard was about 5 1. He was tiny. I go, have Howard do it. And it's like, what? And I go, he ain't gonna. He's not gonna punch Howard.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

These guys, he'll wanna, you know, eat him up. Howard looked at me so pissed off that I had this idea. But they sent him in and it worked. He thought it was hilarious that the little guy's kicking him out and he left. And it was no problem. But from that day on, Howard wouldn't serve me a drink. Howard is throwing. Totally pissed at me.

[Brent Spiner]

Well, what were you doing at the Improv? Were you there just to.

[Dean Devlin]

It was a hang. Oh, okay.

[Brent Spiner]

Maybe you were doing stand up. Do you ever do stand up?

[Dean Devlin]

I did stand up in New York with John Story.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh, no kidding.

[Dean Devlin]

We were a duo.

[Brent Spiner]

Story was my lover in Independence Day. Resurgence.

[Dean Devlin]

We were a duo in New York. Our act was called Something Clever. And we did it for about a year, then we brought it to la. And then I just didn't like being around other comics.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah, it's hard.

[Dean Devlin]

They were really angry, mean people.

[Brent Spiner]

When I was in Texas, back in the day, before I gone to New York or done anything, I. I went to a high school that had a lot of really interesting people. Houston. And in my. My drama class, Randy Quaid. Who? You know.

[Dean Devlin]

Oh, my God. I didn't know that you guys grew up together. Yeah, no idea.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah, we. As a matter of fact, something happened on the Independence Day set that I'll tell you about in A minute. But. But it was Randy, and I knew Dennis because he was around, and. But Trey Wilson, I don't know if you remember Trey Wilson, but he was a very good friend, and he was. I was best man in his wedding. And he was a wonderful, wonderful actor who died too young. You remember him from Bull Durham. He was the manager of the team.

[Dean Devlin]

Okay.

[Brent Spiner]

And he's Mr. Arizona in raising Arizona. You know, it's his furniture store. And I think he died at 40, and he had eight films that year. And as a matter of fact, Coen Brothers, Miller's Crossing is dedicated to Trey because he was supposed to play the Albert Finney role, and then he passed away. But also in my high school drama class was Marianne Williamson, who ran for president not while we were in school together, but years later.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Was that where you studied with Mr. Pickett? Mr. Pickett. Was that high school or college?

[Brent Spiner]

Both. Both, yeah. He was my drama teacher in high school.

[Dean Devlin]

And then you were talking about Randy Quaid.

[Brent Spiner]

There was a moment Randy had where he's on the phone in the hangar, and Roland whispered in my ear, get in his face. Just get in his face while he's doing this. And so I just came in and I wasn't even supposed to be in the scene, and. And I just came in and I'm going, hey, who are you talking to? You know, And I'm bugging him while he's on the phone, and finally he goes, stop it. He goes, you did this to me all through high school, and you're doing it again, but I can't remember what I was going to tell you about. I started to tell you. Well, there you go. Senior moment, ladies and gentlemen.

[Jonathan Frakes]

It led to a good moment, though.

[Brent Spiner]

But it did lead to something.

[Jonathan Frakes]

It'll come back to work.

[Brent Spiner]

I may work my way back one of these days.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I read you guys got Stargate back.

[Dean Devlin]

Well, here's the thing.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

There's an interesting law that if you write something on spec and then sell it after 30 years, you can claim it again. And at 35 years, the rights can come back to you. So it's been that long. But we made a deal with Amazon and mgm and they're launching a brand new series, and so all is good.

[Brent Spiner]

Will you be involved in the series?

[Dean Devlin]

We are technically executive producers, but because this is really an extension of the series that we weren't involved with, there's not much we can contribute, really.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Is this under the electric umbrella or.

[Brent Spiner]

This is.

[Dean Devlin]

No, this is just Roland and I. Yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

Speaking of you and Roland, did you write the Patriot together?

[Dean Devlin]

No, that was actually the man who wrote Saving Private Ryan.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh, who was that?

[Dean Devlin]

I am spacing on his name right now. I'm having a senior moment.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Well, I actually want to bring up Heath.

[Dean Devlin]

Oh, Heath.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Who played your wife.

[Dean Devlin]

Husband.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Husband in the show. So another incredible actor.

[Dean Devlin]

Oh, yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

But that really put Heath on the map in a big way. He had already done some interesting stuff in Australia and he did a.

[Dean Devlin]

He did a series in Australia called Roar.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

That was actually produced by Sean Cassidy. In it, he was kind of playing Mel Gibson in Braveheart. So when I saw it, I thought, well, he's kind of playing young Mel Gibson. Why don't we bring him in to be the son? And the interesting thing is he screen tested for the role against Ryan Phillippe, and Ryan Phillippe was three times better than him. I mean, he killed the audition. Yeah. There was no question. It was night and day. And afterwards, I remember Mel Gibson turning to Roland and go, so we're going with Ryan. And Roland said, no, we're gonna go with Heath. And he goes, but the other kid was way better. He goes, I know, but I gotta. My guts tell me it's Heath. And what we found out later is Heath was just so nervous around Mel.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

And even when we started the movie, the first several days of shooting with Mel, he was just too nervous. But. But once he got his feet under him, he was.

[Brent Spiner]

And he got great notices for it too.

[Jonathan Frakes]

It was great for him.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah. You know who else was in that movie? Rene Aubergenois.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Aubergenois, yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

Well, we used to have the same manager.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh, is that right?

[Dean Devlin]

Yeah. When I was an actor, we had the same manager. So I always loved Rene through this manager, and I was always trying to find something to do with him.

[Jonathan Frakes]

And so Rene was also in 315, the moment of Truth.

[Dean Devlin]

Yes.

[Jonathan Frakes]

How about that little reference right there? You know what you're famous for? Among other things.

[Dean Devlin]

What's that?

[Brent Spiner]

Casting.

[Dean Devlin]

I think that's my best talent.

[Jonathan Frakes]

And editing. But casting you are. I think about the casts on both librarians and Leverage, where the diversity of tones, music, colors, energies is so fantastic. And it's a real credit. It's a real gift. I mean, people say sometimes casting is like 80% of it, 90% of it.

[Dean Devlin]

I think it is.

[Jonathan Frakes]

It's a gift. You don't.

[Dean Devlin]

You can't survive the wrong casting.

[Jonathan Frakes]

No.

[Dean Devlin]

And. And I've never been hurt by a super talented actor.

[Brent Spiner]

I think it's rare for an actor to Ruin a movie.

[Dean Devlin]

Well, if they're insanely miscast simply because they're famous.

[Brent Spiner]

Right.

[Dean Devlin]

It can screw up a movie. It's not their fault. They just shouldn't have had the job. Yeah, but you cast it. Right. So much of your work is done.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Especially if they're collaborative.

[Dean Devlin]

Yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah. I worked for you again, actually, in Leverage, an episode of Leverage that was directed by. What do we have to do to

[Jonathan Frakes]

persuade him to come to work?

[Dean Devlin]

We did a lot of. I had to put the knee pads on.

[Jonathan Frakes]

He said to me, can you get Brent to do this show? I said, I can try. And then I said, brent Dean has offered you a job. I'm directing it. It's going to be over scale. You know, you get out of the house. Where is it? I said, we shoot in Glendale. This is before Portland.

[Dean Devlin]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Said we shoot in Glendale. I said, oh, it's a long drive from here. Do you remember this?

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

And then fabulous in it, I believe

[Jonathan Frakes]

it was that show or another that we offered you a job and you said, if somebody else turns it down. And we had to cast somebody else who ended up turning it down. And then we got it.

[Brent Spiner]

Because I said, if he turns it down, I'll do it. And that was for us.

[Jonathan Frakes]

How do you. How do you treat other people, you know?

[Brent Spiner]

Well, the same way, by the way. I mean, my. My manager's here. He's. He's laughing because he knows I turned down everything. But the real reason is I just, I. I just don't have that much confidence that I'm going to be able to pull it off.

[Jonathan Frakes]

It's crazy.

[Dean Devlin]

And one of the best actors I've ever seen.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I know. I agree.

[Dean Devlin]

One of the best actors I've ever

[Jonathan Frakes]

seen and most versatile.

[Brent Spiner]

Well, and. But yet I, you know, it's the old. I keep playing Clint Eastwood in my head saying, a man's gotta know his limitations. And I think every time I read something, well, I can't do this, but

[Dean Devlin]

sometimes I had an acting teacher. Did you guys remember Roy London?

[Brent Spiner]

Sure.

[Dean Devlin]

Huge actor Roy London used to say, if your instinct is not to do that part, do that part.

[Brent Spiner]

Right, Right.

[Dean Devlin]

There's something in there that's terrifying you. You don't want to do it. That's the one you got to do.

[Brent Spiner]

Well, that's every role I've ever done. It really is. I'm scared always.

[Dean Devlin]

But I honestly, we celebrate the character in the wheelchair or the one with the mental problem. That's not, to me, the hardest roles. Putting humanity in an Android that is, to me, the giant, Giant acting. Because that's so easy to screw that up. Well, that's so easy to just make it nothing but the long.

[Jonathan Frakes]

You put the spin on it right from the pilot. It wasn't a great pilot, but this stuff with you. It wasn't a great pilot. Encounter at Farpoint, but your stuff had that. Remember we were up in the park. We were wandering through the park and you were whistling.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah. That was the first day.

[Jonathan Frakes]

It was. I thought, this is wild. That's why people felt that they could relate and that's why they felt.

[Dean Devlin]

I'll make the point with an actor that's not you, so you don't have to be embarrassed. Kurt Russell in Stargate. No, not in Stargate, in Tombstone.

[Brent Spiner]

Tombstone.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Oh, what a cast.

[Dean Devlin]

Val Kilmer's best part.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah. Val is brilliant in that movie, but

[Dean Devlin]

he has a line in there that to me is a terrible line. But because of his force as an act, that to me is like. That's when you know you got a great actor when they've got a line that's this bad. And he makes it memorable and you quote it forever. He cocks the gun and he goes, you tell him I'm coming and hell's coming with me.

[Brent Spiner]

But he did it with conviction and it worked.

[Dean Devlin]

It was his performance of it that made it. And that's what I'm kind of complimenting you on.

[Brent Spiner]

Thank you. Well, you know, speaking of that pilot, that pilot of Next Gen was directed by a wonderful guy who you'll know from a movie. He was an actor and later became a director, but his name was Corey Allen.

[Dean Devlin]

I knew. I knew Corey.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh, did you know Corey?

[Dean Devlin]

He's a teacher.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh. Oh, okay.

[Dean Devlin]

He was an acting teacher.

[Brent Spiner]

Yes, he was. That's right. And Corey, in case the audience doesn't know the. Corey was famously the guy in Rebel Without a Cause in the opposite car is. Yeah. Who is racing James Dean and gets his. His sleeve caught on the handle when he's going to roll out of the car and instead goes over the cliff to his death. And he was. He was great.

[Jonathan Frakes]

He was so sweet, man.

[Brent Spiner]

Passionate. Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I remember doing a scene with Patrick in the. Either in the ready room or the conference room and the camera was looking in through the window to give Patrick that kind of powerful stance. And it's a two shot and the two of us are looking down into space talking about some bullshit, and he wanted to goose us up a little bit. And he said, come on, guys, come on.

[Brent Spiner]

Fuck the universe. Fuck the universe. That's always a good direction, by the way.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Always a good direction.

[Brent Spiner]

You can use that in anything.

[Dean Devlin]

Well, I'll tell you, I've been around some very good directors, but I would say if you took the percentage of what I've learned.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Oh, come.

[Dean Devlin]

I learned so much from you.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh. Oh, yeah.

[Dean Devlin]

So much from you. And I copy you to this day. Like, one of the things that I. I don't know if you still do this, but one of the things he used to do that I love is he didn't say, cut, we're moving on. He would run from the chair with his hands in there. Dude, go, Victory. Now.

[Jonathan Frakes]

We knew it was time to move on then. You know, you gotta print.

[Dean Devlin]

You know you gotta print, and everybody's energy went up. So many things that you do that are psychological. Yes, I totally rip you off all the time.

[Brent Spiner]

Well, he really is an actor's director because he makes you feel you're doing a great job and also that you

[Jonathan Frakes]

can make a mistake. My philosophy is, like you said, make sure you do the lines the right one time, and then we'll move on from there. But if you feel safe enough to make a mistake, all of a sudden, all the anxiety that we have, no matter what job we're in, even if you pull in focus, and that used to be the hardest job in the business. And if you miss the focus, we go again, we'll get it. Everything's gonna be fine.

[Brent Spiner]

Well, you know, Johnny had said earlier to me, you know, I always thought you should have been a director, but as you know, having worked with me, that even as an actor, I tend to direct. And we were doing leverage, actually. And I had an idea, and I said, jonathan, I think what happens here in this scene. And you were like, you know what? I think I can direct this.

[Jonathan Frakes]

We also had Armin Shimerman in that episode.

[Brent Spiner]

Lauren, Holly.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Lauren, Holly.

[Dean Devlin]

There's another fraksism that I steal all the time. This is my favorite, but this is one that I think 8 out of 10 directors can't get away with saying, but because of who you are, you get away. Franks will walk onto the set after taking Great act faster.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Actually, it was on Leverage where I made a reference earlier. I used to offer Gina. I said, well, I think my character would walk around to this side of the table for now. I said, what if I pay you to stay there? It'll save us half an hour or 40 bucks, 50 bucks. She said, no, no, I'm gonna think I 100 bucks. She said, okay. I'll take it. I'm not above paying an actor to stay in the blocking.

[Dean Devlin]

And what's that other thing that you always say? To do a number three or.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Oh, I'll do it for you. Call it G3. Works for everything. You know what it is?

[Dean Devlin]

Smell a fart.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Who farted? It works everywhere.

[Dean Devlin]

Another one I've stolen?

[Brent Spiner]

Of course. Excellent. I'm going to be thinking that the next time I do something. Anything you want to talk about, Dean? Anything you want to pitch? Anything you want to.

[Dean Devlin]

Sure, if I get to pitch a little. We have our own app at Electric called Electric now, and our own fast channel. The Electric Now Fast channel. And this year, we're really stepping up our game. At the end of next month, we're debuting brand new apps, and in those apps, we'll have over 60 channels.

[Brent Spiner]

What?

[Dean Devlin]

Yeah. Within the app, we're gonna have our first original program on the show that was made specifically for Electric now called the Poly Couple, which is hilarious. I think you're gonna love it. And we're gonna get to put on the first season of Librarian's Next Chapter. We're gonna get to put on the first two seasons of the Ark. So it's gonna be a big year for Electric Now.

[Brent Spiner]

So good.

[Dean Devlin]

And our friend Derek Fredrickson, his animated show is gonna debut in the fourth quarter.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I'm so glad you took that on.

[Dean Devlin]

It's a science fiction animated comedy called Sloan and the Cosmic Schlep, and that comes out at the end of the year. And one of the voices, Johnny Frakes.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Johnny Frakes. And Beth.

[Dean Devlin]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

You're a good pickup. What a delight.

[Dean Devlin]

Thank you.

[Brent Spiner]

Great stories, great guests. Dean Devlin, Good to have you.