Star Trek, Gladiator, Skyfall - The Stories Behind the Names with John Logan

Summary

Podcast Summary

Dropping Names ...and other things
Episode: Star Trek, Gladiator, Skyfall – The Stories Behind the Names
Hosts: Brent Spiner & Jonathan Frakes
Guest: John Logan
Date: February 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode is a lively, freewheeling conversation between Star Trek icons Brent Spiner and Jonathan Frakes and their guest, Tony Award-winning playwright and Oscar-nominated screenwriter John Logan. The trio shares behind-the-scenes stories from their long Hollywood careers, focusing on the stories behind iconic names and projects, including Star Trek, Gladiator, Skyfall, and more. The discussion ranges from working with legends, the evolution of beloved franchises, and creative challenges, to personal anecdotes and lessons learned from decades in the industry.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Art of Napping on Set (00:38–04:15)

• Classic actor downtime: Brent and Jonathan riff on the joys and challenges of napping on the set of Star Trek, referencing the famous quote:

  “I act for free. They pay me to wait.” — Brent Spiner (02:46)

• Brent recounts his infamous attempt to buy the entire crew an hour-long nap—turned down when two crew members had to run errands.
• Aging, sleep, and humor: The duo jokes about aging and how naps (and bathroom breaks) become central topics.

  “The only time I don't have to pee is when I'm peeing.” — Marty Short, quoted by Jonathan Frakes (02:36)

2. Introducing John Logan & His Hollywood Résumé (05:00–05:54)

• John Logan’s prolific writing career is highlighted, with credits spanning Gladiator, The Aviator, Skyfall, Sweeney Todd, Spectre, Hugo, Last Samurai, Rango, Alien: Covenant, and Star Trek: Nemesis.
• Running gag around “-ator” movies and humorous pitches for “Refrigerator: The Refrigerator Perry Story.”

3. Star Trek: On Deaths, Directing, and Legacy (06:18–08:59)

• "Did Data die?"—John Logan clarifies that, as the author, he never considered Data's death in Nemesis as definitive.

  “Do you believe that Data died in Nemesis?”
  “No.” — John Logan (06:18)

• Brent and Jonathan muse about transitioning to directing, supporting each other on set, and the familial atmosphere during the making of Star Trek: The Next Generation and its films.
• Discussion about the enduring nature of the Star Trek franchise and balancing nostalgia and innovation:

  “What it can't become is nostalgia... If Star Trek becomes nostalgia, it's dead.” — John Logan (12:07)

4. How to Keep Star Trek Relevant (12:34–13:17)

• The need for Star Trek to maintain its unique identity instead of mimicking other franchises like Marvel or Star Wars:

  “Do you do that by playing another person's game or by playing the Star Trek game?” — John Logan (12:44) “I think Star Trek has its own lane.” — Brent Spiner (12:57)

• Praise for Strange New Worlds and its bold narrative choices, including musical and animated crossover episodes.

5. Name-Dropping and Industry Legends (17:53–24:04)

• The hosts and John swap tales of meeting and working with intimidating or legendary figures:
  • Jonathan Frakes: Mike Nichols, Sir Ben Kingsley
  • John Logan: Christopher Lee, Patrick Stewart
  • Anecdotes include a dinner arranged by Sir Patrick featuring Stephen Sondheim and Harold Pinter (20:38), and sharing how to connect with icons by showing deep knowledge of their early work.

6. Working with Difficult and Inspiring People (39:06–42:14)

• Stories of both difficult and delightful collaborators, emphasizing professionalism, compassion, and lessons from witnessing poor behavior on set.
• Specific examples include John and Jonathan’s experiences with actors rumored to be difficult but who proved generous and warm, notably Sir Ben Kingsley.

7. Behind the Names in Film: Gladiator, The Aviator, Skyfall, Hugo, Rango (43:30–58:11)

a. Gladiator

• Legendary disastrous table read with Oliver Reed, Russell Crowe, and Richard Harris:

  “Legendarily the worst table read in the history of Hollywood.” — John Logan (43:59)

b. The Aviator

• The script’s journey from Michael Mann to Martin Scorsese; praise for editing collaborator Thelma Schoonmaker; Frakes’ cameo and on-set experience with Scorsese’s direction (31:19–32:53).
• Nostalgic reflection on the era of “big” non-franchise movies.

c. Skyfall

• Logan describes his first collaboration with Sam Mendes and how Skyfall “came together just right” (47:53).
• Tells of the challenge of constructing the third act during production, and the table read with iconic cast members.

d. Hugo

• Regarded by Frakes as possibly the best 3D movie ever made; Logan explains the technical and creative challenges owing to early digital 3D, working with one camera, and training animals for set chaos (45:02–46:34).

e. Rango

• Rango’s Oscar-winning journey; made independently, offering much creative freedom—hiking story development, the benefits of not having a studio give notes, and quirky humor that wouldn’t fly at Disney or Pixar (57:54–58:11).

8. The Reality of Show Business & The Passion to Create (51:08–53:49)

• Acceptance that not every project gets made—or survives success or failure. The iterative, resilient mentality required for a long career as a writer, actor, or director.

  “You have to love what you do… because I cannot control it. Someone else has to pay for it. …Where we have our power is when I'm writing, I am writing.” — John Logan (53:02–54:23)

9. Favorite Filmmakers & Hollywood Stories (34:38–36:45)

• Rapid-fire exchange on the “greatest” filmmakers: Scorsese, Welles, Kubrick, Hitchcock, Spielberg, Ridley Scott, Billy Wilder.
• Insights on directors’ leadership styles and the signature “dragon” within great artists that fuels their uniqueness and ambition (22:38–23:15).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Star Trek's Legacy:
  “With Trek... it's a huge, huge epic that goes on and on and on.” — Jonathan Frakes (11:36)
• On Directing:
  “It was glorious... I had the support of the company. If it had been a stinker, Berman probably would have been able to say, ‘this didn't work out.’” — Jonathan Frakes (08:10)
• On meeting Christopher Lee:
  “But that walk down the corridor at Shepperton was nerve wracking because I’m like, oh God, I don’t want Christopher Lee to hate me and hate my work.” — John Logan (18:19)
• On creating challenging work:
  “My job is to write scenes actors want to do, period.” — John Logan (14:48)
• On Hollywood resilience:
  “You have to have a killer instinct... ambition, a drive, an obsession, something that’s fueling the work.” — John Logan (23:16)

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Notable Name Drops & Scenes

• Dinner at the Ivy: Patrick Stewart, Stephen Sondheim, Harold Pinter, Harriet Walter (20:41)
• Angela Lansbury dinner: Orchestrated by the hosts, surprising John Logan, a huge Murder, She Wrote fan (26:20–27:11)
• Walter Matthau trivia story: The payoff to a long-running trivia question about “Friar Tuck in Robin Hood” (37:11)
• Creative breakthroughs: John Logan’s last-minute inspiration for his Hannibal script while hiking (49:42–50:43)
• On set with difficult personalities: Compassion and professionalism versus notoriety (39:27–42:14)
• Gore Vidal quote: “It’s not enough that I win. Others must fail.” Countered with the group’s ethos of benevolence (58:32)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening banter & nap story — 00:38–04:15
• John Logan’s filmography rundown — 05:00–05:54
• Discussion on Nemesis and Data’s “death” — 06:18–06:26
• Star Trek’s future and generational challenge — 12:34–13:17
• Dinner with Sondheim & theatrical legends — 20:38–21:59
• Walter Matthau trivia anecdote — 37:11–38:15
• Gladiator table read story — 43:30–44:47
• Rango’s unique creation — 57:54–58:11

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Overall Tone & Style

The tone is warm, humorous, and deeply collegial, with a sense of shared history and joy in storytelling. The hosts and guest move fluidly between serious industry insights and playful ribbing, always bringing their candor and delight in both each other’s company and the stories they’ve collected throughout decades in film and television.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode is a masterclass in Hollywood lore and the art of storytelling, both off and onscreen. Whether you love Star Trek, blockbuster movies, or industry insider tales, the conversation is packed with wisdom, wit, and plenty of good-natured name-dropping. Don’t miss the candid confessions, affectionate anecdotes, and the lasting lesson: great art is built on passion, persistence, and people.

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Hosted by Brent Spiner & Jonathan Frakes with guest John Logan.
“Dropping Names …and other things” — where great stories meet great conversations.

Transcript

[Jonathan Frakes]

All right, Johnny, I want to talk about something here. Very serious topic.

[Brent Spiner]

You're not going to talk about the weather?

[Jonathan Frakes]

No.

[Brent Spiner]

Not about. Talk about politics?

[Jonathan Frakes]

No.

[Brent Spiner]

Okay, cool.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I could get to that eventually, but not right now. But are those bluntstones you're wearing? I wear blunts.

[Brent Spiner]

Don't you let. Oh, no. You have a fancier boot.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Well, no, it's not fancier, but they're in the same. They're both Australian. It's an Australian boot as well.

[Brent Spiner]

But you have a more. You have a certain of more elegant.

[Jonathan Frakes]

They're a little more elegant.

[Brent Spiner]

A little flop on them.

[Jonathan Frakes]

But, you know, there's a.

[Brent Spiner]

There's a. I'm a little more blue collar than you. You're a little more hoy poloy.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I am. But you know what the. The Blundstone store on. In Silver Lake.

[Brent Spiner]

What about the Blundstone store in Toronto? There's one up on. What street is that on King Queen Street.

[Jonathan Frakes]

He's talking to some people off camera. Now, we have guests here today. We have guests today, but why would

[Brent Spiner]

you want to come and guest on a show like this? You know why they love Star Trek, right?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Is that it? Yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

Now let me ask you a quick question. Who's your favorite character? I'll be.

[John Logan]

I'll go out.

[Brent Spiner]

I'll go first. Data is my favorite character. Data.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Also Melissa. Yeah. Thank you. That's 3 datas and 0 Rikers. Is that. Did I get that counting? Did I count that correctly, Counselor?

[Brent Spiner]

Troy Fan.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Okay, no, look. But, but, you know, speaking of Blundstone,

[Brent Spiner]

I brought two pair today for the episodes.

[Jonathan Frakes]

This would be. They'd be a fine sponsor for our show.

[Brent Spiner]

Don't you think that's a great idea?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah. Then we get boots.

[Brent Spiner]

So pitch that, Eric. What's the plan with that?

[Jonathan Frakes]

I love those boots, Jonathan. What are those?

[Brent Spiner]

Those are blunts.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Nice.

[Brent Spiner]

Everybody on the cruise in Canada wears them. Yeah, because you don't know what it's usually going to be, cold or wet. It's like working in Portland.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah, no, it's nice.

[Brent Spiner]

By the way, you were missed in Portland.

[Jonathan Frakes]

What? Invited.

[Brent Spiner]

You know why?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Why?

[Brent Spiner]

Because of that picture. You in the post office wall. Because of what happened there last time you went to Portland.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I know. I was just trying to help. Johnny, let me talk about something right now, okay?

[Brent Spiner]

I didn't mean to interrupt. I'm just working on this second cup of coffee.

[Jonathan Frakes]

My train of thought is still going. Well, I'm having a. You know, I didn't sleep at all last night. That's the second Time you told me that story.

[Brent Spiner]

So is there. Is there something going on that I need to know about before we do this day's work?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Only that I could possibly need to take a nap in the middle of one of our interviews.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh, do you want to tell the nap story?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Well, is it really that good?

[Brent Spiner]

I. I think it's worthy.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Well, you tell it then.

[Brent Spiner]

Brent Spiner. All of us like to take naps. One of the great parts of being an actor is that, as Robert Mitchum famously said, I act for free. They pay me to wait.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Exactly. And. And I think Widmark said that, too. Yeah, Somebody.

[Brent Spiner]

All the. All the actors, all the big guys said that. So Brent was a great napper. I was a good napper. But then I'd wake up, and I'd go back and hang out in a set, and that's how I became a director. But Brent's nap was infamous. Power nap, as long as it had between shots. And they would come back and say, you have five minutes. And then they touch up his gold face and send it back on. But Brent thought it only fair because the crew didn't get the nap. So he went to our producer, who Mary Howard, who we adore, and said, seriously, I will pay for an hour nap for the entire crew.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I mean, I asked, how much does an hour's time cost? Right.

[Brent Spiner]

It was to be everybody who worked on the set.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

In front of and behind the camera.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah. That was. The deal is I want. I will pay for a nap for an hour if everyone. Every single person on the set agrees to take the. Agrees to take a nap. If anybody says no, the deal's off.

[Brent Spiner]

And what happened?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Two guys said, no, I need to go to the bank. No deals off.

[Brent Spiner]

Paid nap.

[Jonathan Frakes]

The paid nap. Who turns down a paid nap? I know, but you know what? That's. That I think, by the way, I sleep better at night when I've had a nap, and I didn't have a nap yesterday. There's the answer.

[Brent Spiner]

Naps are supposed to be good for you after you reach a certain age. What are you, 50 now?

[Jonathan Frakes]

A little over 50.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah. So I think by the time you turn 50, you'll have a. You need to take the nap, and then you sleep better at night.

[Jonathan Frakes]

You know what? That's.

[Brent Spiner]

Don't you get up to pee in the night, though?

[Jonathan Frakes]

No, I pee all night. I lay down occasionally.

[Brent Spiner]

You know what Marty Short says?

[Jonathan Frakes]

The only time I don't have to pee is when I'm peeing.

[Brent Spiner]

Right.

[John Logan]

Dropping names and other things where the whiskey flows and the laughter sings Pull up a seat, Join the game of bread and Johnny apart as show.

[Jonathan Frakes]

John Logan, our. Our dear friend and Tony winner for the play Red. Brilliant play. Red.

[Brent Spiner]

Red.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Thank you. I look for Moulin Rouge, which is playing all over the world right now. And you know what? John has written every movie.

[Brent Spiner]

You mentioned Gladiator.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Gladiator. You know what I was thinking? John wrote Gladiator, he wrote Aviator. Anything with aider.

[John Logan]

I'm an ater writer.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Have you thought about refrigerator?

[John Logan]

Oh, God damn it. Yes. Refrigerator. The Refrigerator Perry story. Chicago Bears.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Oh. Or refrigerator with ice cube in it.

[John Logan]

Oh, wow, that's.

[Brent Spiner]

Or the refrigerator shot that everybody hates, that everybody likes.

[John Logan]

Yeah, I'm booked, sweetie. So you'll call my agent about that? But, yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Anyway, John wrote Gladiator, Aviator, Skyfall, Sweeney Todd, Spectre, Hugo Rango, Last Samurai, Any given. Oh, you know which alien we.

[John Logan]

I did Alien. Covenant. Alien, Colon. Covenant, which was the one after Prometheus.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yes.

[John Logan]

Not the most celebrated. Speaking of which, did we also write Star Trek Nemesis?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yes.

[John Logan]

Where I got to meet my friends.

[Brent Spiner]

Was he part of a creative team?

[John Logan]

He was part of a creative. He barreled in and said, brent sp going to do this story or they're no movie.

[Brent Spiner]

Let me ask you a question that I've answered a hundred times. Do you believe that Data died in Nemesis?

[Jonathan Frakes]

No, thank you very much.

[Brent Spiner]

That's the author right there. That's my answer.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I never thought so. I wanted him to, but I didn't think it was happening, really.

[John Logan]

When I killed off Judi Dench in Skyfall, I said to her, she's like, people are gonna.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah, bam.

[John Logan]

Dame Judi Dench, who I did a play with, and we were in Skyfall, and she said, you know, well, people are gonna hate you for killing em. Because they. And I said, judy, I killed Data. Believe me, Nothing kill him.

[Jonathan Frakes]

And she said, who?

[John Logan]

Who.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Who's Data?

[John Logan]

Yes. Who is this Data? The Data you speak of. Bless her.

[Brent Spiner]

I did. I have probably worked with Patrick more than any other actor that I've ever acted with.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

And because of that theory about, you know, you play tennis with a better actor. He made me a better actor always. And I looked forward, especially when I was directing. I thought, oh, I can trust that. What's going on in the room? And then I'll check with somebody and see if. If we screwed up the lines.

[John Logan]

But I guess it was hard when you started directing your fellow cast members.

[Brent Spiner]

No, it was glorious.

[Jonathan Frakes]

It was easy. I mean, it was his show.

[Brent Spiner]

I started On Offspring.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Offspring.

[John Logan]

Oh, my gosh.

[Brent Spiner]

Where he built.

[Jonathan Frakes]

But everybody just.

[John Logan]

Yeah, I just read a thing about that, a blog about that episode. Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I mean, he had done his homework so much. He was prepared. Yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

I had Shadowed for almost three years.

[Jonathan Frakes]

He also had the love of everybody on the set who was like, we're gonna be there for you. And same thing happened on. On First Contact.

[Brent Spiner]

It was because they weren't gonna get Spielberg or somebody like. Or Ridley to do an action Star Trek 7 or 8 or whatever that was. The sound department gave me that megaphone.

[John Logan]

My first episode there must have been joyous for realizing, like, opening a whole door to a new career.

[Brent Spiner]

Well, I don't want too much smoke up your ass, but it helped that it was Brent's show, but it was a great script. I had the support of the company. If it had been a stinker.

[John Logan]

Yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

Berman probably would have been able to say, you know, this didn't work out.

[John Logan]

Yeah. How's Rick doing? I haven't seen Rick in forever.

[Jonathan Frakes]

He's pretty good.

[Brent Spiner]

He just came back from Bora Bora with his family of 10.

[Jonathan Frakes]

He's doing fine.

[John Logan]

Yeah, he's doing okay.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[John Logan]

Get Rick in here to talk.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Well, you know. Yeah, we could. We could. Cause, you know. You know, Rick has stories that go way back to Roddenberry and. And beyond. I mean, he worked with John Lennon and Groucho as a whole big blue

[Brent Spiner]

marble era, New York era of his life. You know, it's not a Star Trek podcast.

[John Logan]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[Brent Spiner]

But it is a Star Trek podcast.

[Jonathan Frakes]

But it does. Well, it's just. We're here, so what do you think it is? But it's not the focus of our show. The focus is we want to hear names, we want to drop names, and we want to hear stories.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah, well, you have.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah, you've been good. You've been delivered. You have really delivered.

[John Logan]

I've been lucky. I've been lucky to rub against some, like, significant people. But, like, you just said it, though, Johnny. It's like, what makes your game better? Playing with someone better than you are.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Absolutely.

[John Logan]

So how are we feeling about the world of Star Trek right now? Are you excited for.

[Brent Spiner]

I'm an eternal optimist, as you can imagine. I had the privilege of directing the first half of the finale of Starfleet Academy, which is spectacular.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

Holly Hunters.

[John Logan]

Yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

What a good idea to get Holly Hunter. And Giamatti is genius. He's there because he was a Trekkie. I mean, a massive Trekkie, and he's half Klingon and half some other wild alien. And I didn't actually work with him, but I met him because Picardo introduced me. I said, what do you think? He said, I'm having such a good time. I think, Franks, I think I might be having too good a time.

[Jonathan Frakes]

So I said, that's.

[Brent Spiner]

And Tatiana Maslany is very heavy in the episode I got. I think it's. And it's huge. The biggest sets we've ever made. I mean, really, it's. It's. It's called the Star Trek stage. It's like in the James Bond stage in Pinewood. It's in Toronto.

[John Logan]

In Toronto, Right, with the huge, like, screen thing.

[Brent Spiner]

No, that's the volume. It's a whole different animal. The volume is. Well, that's for another podcast.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[John Logan]

Yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

It reminded me of the 3D stuff because you can't shoot the way you usually shoot, really. But that's.

[John Logan]

Yeah, of course, that's in danger of disappearing, even though it's the 60th year. So that's what, like, as. As. As permanent as our work is in a certain way, if there's not something to keep the heartbeat going. Star Trek, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, unless there's something going on to keep, I think they. They risk becoming ephemeral and disappearing. Which is why, as a fan, I so want Starfleet Academy to be great, and I want people to see it, and I want. I want that universe to open up.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[John Logan]

I want. I want three Star Trek shows. I want to run one of them. You know, I want Akiva to run one of them. I want. I. You know, that's what I want. Because.

[Brent Spiner]

Well, this meeting you have tomorrow.

[John Logan]

Yeah, it's about something else.

[Jonathan Frakes]

But.

[John Logan]

But, yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

No, but I. Yeah, if the franchise is going to find someone with your passion and your talent, I mean, Akiva stayed with it for years.

[John Logan]

Yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

Akiva could have been doing other things.

[John Logan]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Oh, he has a million other projects. He's like, John.

[Brent Spiner]

It attracts people who love it, really. That's how Giamatti's in Starfleet Academy. Massive fan of the show.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Love it.

[Brent Spiner]

You know, I want to be part

[John Logan]

of it and want to be part of it, and it must be like, for you guys. I can't imagine what it's like being part of that story, because that's. That's a long story, an important story, and you guys were vital parts of it for so long, and it's an ongoing story, so you have an. You have skin in the game.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah. With Trek, well, it's an epic. It's. It's a huge, huge epic that goes on and on and on. And it is, I think, the biggest. Aside from like soap opera, like Guiding Light or General Hospital. General Hospital has been on for how many years?

[John Logan]

You know that one?

[Brent Spiner]

60.

[Jonathan Frakes]

60 years, you know, but aside from something like GH, Star Trek in America is the longest running thing amazing ever. It's not, it's not Coronation.

[John Logan]

Coronation Street.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah. Which is a little longer.

[John Logan]

But here's the. Here's the danger. Let's say a couple shows don't hit, a couple TV shows don't hit, and the corporate parents get nervous about it and say, well, you know, we could give our money to this other franchise or this other IP and there's not a new movie coming along. You know, what it can't become is nostalgia. You know, Dark Shadows, Hammer movies, That's nostalgia. If Star Trek becomes nostalgia, it's dead, you know, it become. You know what I mean?

[Brent Spiner]

But how do we find a younger audience, a Star Trek audience? Our audience, and obviously Shatner's audience are older people and they've passed it along as much as they can to their families and children.

[John Logan]

Here's the question I ask. Do you do that by playing another person's game or by playing the Star Trek game, more meaning? Do you start getting more like Star Wars? Do you start getting more like a Marvel franchise or do you sort of

[Brent Spiner]

try to go, I think Star Trek has its own lane.

[John Logan]

I think so, too. I think so too. I hope it stays in that lane.

[Brent Spiner]

I do too.

[John Logan]

Yeah. That's what I loved about strange New Worlds. It was like I felt a real alignment. I felt sort of like the cosmic alignment with Gene Roddenberry, weirdly, you know,

[Brent Spiner]

and there was a fearlessness about taking big swings on strange new worlds.

[John Logan]

Big swings. I mean, the episode, you know, where. Yeah, she's with a Gorn for the whole episode on the planet. And there's so many bold things. The musical episode.

[Brent Spiner]

The musical episode. I did the animated crossover episode with Fawny Newsom and Jack Quaid. It was hysterical.

[John Logan]

Yeah, Hysterical, but bold. There was no timorousness to it, which

[Brent Spiner]

is great use of the word timorousness.

[John Logan]

Thank you.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Thank you.

[Brent Spiner]

Excellent.

[John Logan]

Thank you. But it's true. I mean, there's a boldness and like when you think about the TV shows you love or you loved, when a kid and you still love, it's the ability to be surprised. Not for maybe a sitcom or like, I want friends to be friends. Every. I want them in the central park every day. And that's what I want to happen because it's comfort. I want. I want Jessica Fletcher to solve a crime in an hour, and that's comfort. But the shows that inspire you are like, oh, hell, you just killed off that character. Didn't see that coming. And Next Gen had that Next Gen had a willingness to do the Borg. You're going to do a cliffhanger where Picard's a Borg, and I'm going to have to wait a summer.

[Brent Spiner]

And a real cliffhanger.

[John Logan]

And a real cliffhanger, which is unheard

[Brent Spiner]

of now with streaming and. Yeah, there is no cliffhanger anymore.

[John Logan]

Yeah. But for. But as you know, as creators, it's our job to, like, challenge ourselves and challenge the audience all the time. Because, like, I would not be happy running a TV show that's. That's the same all the time that. That didn't like.

[Jonathan Frakes]

And you, as actors, didn't take chances and stretch.

[John Logan]

My job is to. Is to write scenes for you that are. You want to play. That's my only. I have one job in the world. It's. I wake up one job I do, and it's my job. It's like, I want to write scenes actors want to do, period. That's it, you're here. And if it inspires people, if it amuses people, if entertains, hopefully it'll be entertaining. But, like, if I don't. If I don't do job one, and whether it's you, Leonardo DiCaprio, Denzel Washington, Judi Dench, it doesn't matter. It's all generic. Actor needs a good part to play. When you guys think of, like, your lives and think of what Star Trek did to your lives. Without Star Trek, had. Had you not been cast, where would you be now?

[Jonathan Frakes]

I would have been at the Golden Globes last night accepting my award for

[Brent Spiner]

if I'd be living guest spot to guest spot.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah, it's hard to say. It really is.

[Brent Spiner]

I think I was very grateful among other. Among the friends, obviously, as the first most important thing. But to be given the opportunity to learn another craft was changed my whole and kept me working because I don't think he'd be working as an actor now if it weren't.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I think I would have done much more theater than I did down. John. Yeah, having been down. Having been in.

[John Logan]

For God's sakes, John.

[Jonathan Frakes]

But, you know, having been in Star Trek allowed me the opportunity to play John Adams in 1776. Because prior to that I was in the theater. I did Broadway shows. But I wasn't getting the best part. You thought you were Big River. I did do Big river, yeah.

[John Logan]

Okay. Talk about a bit of juvenileia. So you know what I watched recently? The Dane Curse.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Oh, the Dane Curse.

[John Logan]

You watched it? Yes. You and James Coburn and Gene Simmons?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[John Logan]

Unbelievable.

[Brent Spiner]

So I didn't know you worked with Gene Simmons twice.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Right.

[John Logan]

What was James Coburn like?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Really nice. Really great. My. I had to knock on a door and take off my hat and say, Mr. I can't remember his name in the

[John Logan]

movie, but HAMILTON Nash.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah, Mr. Nash. To give him a piece of information. And he'd go, all right. And the door closes. And that's my first moment. And I knew I was gonna knock on the door and James Coburn was gonna answer the door. And I did it, closed the door. Cut. He opens the door and goes, great character. And he said, can I give you a note? Yeah, yeah, please. He said, when you take off the hat, take it off very slowly. Don't just whip it off. And I went, okay. But he could not have been nicer to me the rest of the run. Gene Simmons and I had a scene in it. Loved having a scene with Gene Simmons later. Twenty years later, we're doing Star Trek and Drumhead Jarhead. Drumhead Jarhead. It was the Marine episode with Gene

[Brent Spiner]

Simmons as a Marine. It was interesting casting.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah. But she came in and I was getting made up in the makeup trailer. She came to the door, stepped in the door, saw me and went. And I thought, oh, my God, she remembers me. And she went, data.

[John Logan]

I love Data. Okay, here's some name dropping. The most intimidating person you met when you meet. When you knew you were going to meet X, you were nervous. Actor, director. Who would it be?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Mike Nichols for me. Yeah. I auditioned for Mike Nichols and Sir Ben.

[Brent Spiner]

It was Sir Ben for me.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah, certainly. How about you?

[John Logan]

Maybe Christopher Lee.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Oh, Christopher Lee.

[John Logan]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Because you just revered him so much.

[John Logan]

Exactly.

[Brent Spiner]

And it was.

[John Logan]

We were doing Hugo and. And he had some notes on the script. And Christopher Lee was legendary for ripping scripts to shreds. Like, this is fatuous nonsense. I will not say this. So he had a very. He had a reputation of being hard on scripts. So Scorsese, like Kristen got to notes, go talk to him. I'm like, oh, God. So I had to go to his dressing room, and Christopher Lee, to me, is a God from. Not only from the Hammer movies, but for, like, Three Musketeers, man with a golden gun, you know, formidable presence. So I go up to the door, I knock, I'm like, hello, Christopher Lee. I'm John Locking the screen. And he could not have been nicer. But that walk down the corridor at Shepperton was nerve wracking because I'm like, oh, God, I don't want Christopher Lee to hate me and hate my work.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Oh, boy. I used to. I saw all those Hammer films when I was a kid in Houston, Texas. There was a theater, the Bel Air Theater. Every Wednesday they had the triple feature horror movies. And I went every Wednesday for several summers. So I saw all the Hammer films. Peter Cushing and Christopher Lee were gods to me at the time.

[John Logan]

Yeah, me too. Yeah, me too. It's funny because my friend Dick Clemenson, who publishes Little Shop O Horrors magazine, which is like the journal about hammer since the 70s, is divesting himself. He's getting older of a lot of his possessions. So he's sending them to me to archive. So I have, like, original things signed by Peter Cushing and letters from Terence Fisher and Christopher Lee. The most amazing stuff he's. He's sending along to me so I can archive them, preserve them. Because, you know, those bits of film history, particularly genre history, you know, horror, sci fi, yeah, they can. They can go away quickly, you know, I mean, not Star Trek, you know, because Star Trek, I think, is just. But something like Dark Shadows, which premiered the same year you know, as the original Trek, you know, Is Dark Shadows

[Brent Spiner]

the radio show or the television show?

[John Logan]

The TV show? The gothic TV show. Barnabas Collins with Jonathan Frid.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Right. And David Selby.

[John Logan]

And David Selby.

[Brent Spiner]

And Ivor Francis, my wife's father was there.

[John Logan]

Yeah, yeah. But that's in danger of disappearing, even though it's the 60th year. So Sondheim. So I'm friends with Sondheim. We're working really hard on Sweeney Todd. We're filming Sweeney Todd. And Sir Patrick Stewart, I've heard of him, heard of sir. Was doing Anthony and Cleopatra with now Dame Harriet Walter.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yes.

[John Logan]

He arranged a dinner. So we went.

[Brent Spiner]

Sir Patrick.

[John Logan]

Sir Patrick arranged a dinner. And it was people I knew and people he knew were coming together. And it was the Ivy, the old corner table at the Ivy. I love the Ivy, too. It is that corner table that used to be the number one table before they added the bar. And here's who the dinner guests were. Myself, Stephen Sondheim, Patrick Stewart, Harriet Walter, Harold Pinter and Tony Frazier. So around that table were who I consider two of the great dramatists of the 20th century. The Master Harold Pinter and The master, Stephen Sondheim. And they were exactly what you'd want them to be. They were wonderful. They were easy. They were gnarly.

[Brent Spiner]

Each other before.

[John Logan]

Never met. No shit, never met. You know. And this is, this is Sir Patrick. Just bringing people together, you know. I was also there for screening of Sweeney Utah when I got to hear this introduction. Pat. I'll be Patrick Stewart.

[Brent Spiner]

Let's hear it.

[John Logan]

Stephen Sondheim, I'd like you to meet Sir Paul McCartney. So seeing Sondheim meet McCartney and seeing how gracious they were to each other is wonderful because everybody interaction I've had with famous people is just because of other people, you know, it's not like

[Brent Spiner]

I has nothing to do with your talent.

[John Logan]

Well, I mean, I have a reputation as a dramatist. But, you know, and I'm good, you know, I don't, you know, I don't spill my food. You know, I'm decent at a dinner party. But that, that, to me, that dinner at the Ivy was the, the everything.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I. I had dinner at the Ivy once with Patrick and Harold Pinter and. Seriously.

[John Logan]

Seriously.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah. And Antonio Frazier. Yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

I've learned two things about you.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah. Made Pinter.

[Brent Spiner]

I've been married to you for 40 years.

[Jonathan Frakes]

No, I made Pinter laugh, which was one of the great moments of my life, you know, that I actually said something he found amusing. So nice, so easy. Yeah.

[John Logan]

And yet. And yet formidable. Oh, formidable. You know, within those guys, within the Scorsese's and the Spielbergs and the Harold Pinters and the Sondheims, you know, there was something coiled inside them that makes them who they are. And it's a dragon.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah. Well, that's Mike Nichols.

[John Logan]

Exactly. Right.

[Brent Spiner]

Ridley Scott. Same thing.

[John Logan]

Absolutely. They're all. They're all sort of. One of the reasons they are who they are is they have that dragon inside them that allows them to be impervious and powerful and supernatural in a way. And some of them wear the dragon up front. Like my friend Michael Mann, who I love. He. He puts the Michael Mann is way up front. And some people, the dragon's way in the back. But it is there.

[Brent Spiner]

It's in there.

[John Logan]

It is because you have to have success in our business. You have to have a killer instinct. You just simply have to. There has to be ambition. There has to be a drive, an obsession, something that's fueling the work. Because you guys know as much as I do, it's really hard work. And it's joyous, but it's work.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah, it can be hard.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I'M reading the Joan Crawford biography now that just came out. She was all about it. I mean, she was. She was the coiled dragon, but she worked her tail off.

[John Logan]

Worked her tail off.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Really? It's a lesson when you read it. She wanted it so bad. So bad that she worked so hard to get it.

[John Logan]

Well, you guys. You guys know that from actors, you know, who are hungry and you see it in their eyes. And sometimes it can be very unattractive, and sometimes it's sort of inspiring or sexy.

[Brent Spiner]

We just had Ron Perlman on the show. He was so inspiring about his passion for the work. And I will never quit that. That sort of.

[John Logan]

Yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

Attitude about being an actor and a creator.

[Jonathan Frakes]

And speaking of Nemesis.

[John Logan]

Yeah, speaking of our.

[Brent Spiner]

He was great at Nemesis.

[John Logan]

He was fantastic under all that. Under all that makeup.

[Brent Spiner]

And he and Hardy apparently did very well together.

[Jonathan Frakes]

So they got. They were good friends.

[Brent Spiner]

That was the beginning of. You launched Hardy.

[John Logan]

Yeah, yeah, pretty much.

[Brent Spiner]

And did you put him in Penny Dreadful?

[John Logan]

No, he's not in Penny Dreadful. Tom Hardy. No.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I, however, am in the sequel to Penny Dreadful. Petty dreadful, City of Angels.

[John Logan]

Yes, you are.

[Brent Spiner]

Yes, you are. LA Bound.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Exactly.

[John Logan]

Yes.

[Jonathan Frakes]

But getting back to Sondheim, we had a lunch with Sondheim, you and I. Oh, my God, Pinter was dying to pull this.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah. This is how dropping names and other things started.

[Jonathan Frakes]

It was a wonderful experience for me because he came out to work with you on Sweeney Todd, and you called and said, hey, do you want to have lunch with Sondheim? And I checked my calendar. I'll check my calendar. And I, of course, knew him already because I was in Sunday in the park with George. However, I was in such awe of him when I did Sunday in the park with George that I never really talked to him. I mean, a little bit, but not much. And we had a great conversation at lunch and just on and on, learned so many things. Did you know that he was a writer on Topper, the TV series Topper? He wrote like, three or four episodes of Topper when he was 19, I think. And because I asked, have you come to LA much? He says, no, not since I did Topper.

[Brent Spiner]

No kidding.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah. But I remember afterwards you told me this, that he called and said, wow, I had such a nice conversation with Brent. I can't believe we worked together for all these months, and I never even talked to him. But it was memorable.

[John Logan]

Memorable. But you made up for it then, because then you hosted the fabulous dinner where I got to meet. Like, at one point, Brent sort of vaguely said, you Know, if you could meet anyone in the world, who would it be? I don't know if I even answered. Or you just knew.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Well, no, I knew because I knew that your favorite television show was Murder, She Wrote.

[John Logan]

Right.

[Jonathan Frakes]

And actually, we have noticed that Angela is on the back of your phone.

[John Logan]

Yes, she is.

[Jonathan Frakes]

So Laurie's very good friend. Stephanie is really good friends with Angela Lansbury's son. And so Laurie said, well, ask the son if maybe Angela would like to come to our house for dinner. And so she did. And she said, yes, I'll come. We were shocked. We couldn't believe she was coming. And so we told John, John, come. Come to dinner, John. The Burmans came. We didn't tell him that Angela was coming. Oh, my God. And he came in. And as you can see, John does not find it difficult to. To carry a conversation.

[Brent Spiner]

I haven't. I haven't noticed that yet, but I'm sure that'll.

[John Logan]

It's the Irish.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I'm sure it'll kill herself ultimately, but it's the Irish. He was tongue tied, John.

[Brent Spiner]

Were you really? I was.

[John Logan]

It was so awe inspiring because, like, look, look, look. Angela Lansbury. How many Tonys, Oscar nomination. Manchurian Candidate, the Harvey Girls, picture of Gaslight, picture of Dorian Gray. The woman's thing is Untouchable.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Oh, huge career.

[John Logan]

Yeah. I mean, if you look at. If you look at the British stage, it would be Dame Judi Dench, Dame Angela Lansbury for us here in the States. But I got to know her better and finally talk to her. Once again. Thank you. Sondheim with Sweeney Todd. Because we did the movie and I said to Dick Zanuck, the producer, I said, there's one thing I want out of this. Thank you. The one thing I want is I want the first people who see this movie to be the people who created the Broadway show. And he's great. So he arranged a screening in New York and Sondheim invited people. So it was Angela Lansbury, Len Cariou, George Hearn, Hal Prince, they were all there with Sondheim. And I got to introduce the movie, you know, to those people. And then Angie and I started talking. And then during some of my Tony season for Red, she was there. So I squired her a bit for. It was heavenly to sort of, you know, that moment with famous people, you get beyond the fame and you're just like, oh, this is. We're just talking.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Did she ask about me?

[John Logan]

Yeah, a lot. That pale fellow we had dinner with,

[Jonathan Frakes]

actually, at that dinner that night, we were all Sort of like, what are we gonna talk to Angela Lansbury about? And Rick Berman and I had done our work and we had gone through her oeuvre. And so there was really a lull because she was kind of thinking, I think, what am I doing here? And she was in the movie National Velvet with Elizabeth Taylor, Mickey Rooney. It was directed by Clarence Brown, and at mgm.

[John Logan]

Clarence Brown get a bell?

[Brent Spiner]

No, Clarence Brown gets two.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah. But I said to Angela, angela, what was it like working with Clarence Brown? And she looked. Well, Clarence was. And she took off. And that was the opening. And it never stopped.

[John Logan]

I swear to God. That is the way if you're intimidated and you're meeting someone, you're meeting Marty Scorsese, you don't say, tell me about Raging Bull. You say, tell me about working with Roger Corman. You know, I think that's so. Because I know for me, if people. If I'm meeting someone, they say, oh, I love Skyfall. I'm like, great. I'm very proud of that. I'm very proud of the achievement of it. But. But when someone says to me, you know, I love genius. Yeah, tell me about genius, or tell me about that obscure play you did in Chicago. You know, it touch. It touches something else. That is not fandom or. It's not. It's not seeking after connection to fame in some way. It's an actual connection about work.

[Jonathan Frakes]

You know, that's like when somebody says to me, what was it like being in Master of Disguise?

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah, I am the master of disguise.

[Jonathan Frakes]

And then I think, yeah, I said, it just makes me feel good that they know I was in that classic.

[John Logan]

Totally, you know? Totally.

[Jonathan Frakes]

How'd you get involved with Scorsese?

[John Logan]

Well, I was developing a movie about Howard Hughes, the Aviator, with Michael Mann and Leonardo, because it was Leonardo's idea to do a movie about Howard Hughes.

[Brent Spiner]

Right.

[John Logan]

And so we went to Michael Mann, who he knew very well. And so we were working on it for, I don't know, five years, trying to get it right. And Michael is. You know, Michael Mann's one of my favorite people in the world, both as a human being and as a film director. But he is assiduous. He is detail oriented. So it was a lot. It was very heavy biographical work. And it was like engineering work, aviation work, film work. All the aspects, medical work, ocd, all the aspects of Howard Hughes's complicated life had to be addressed. So we wrote the script. Michael subsequently did Ali. He didn't want to do another biopic. So Leo, God love him, said I'm going to give this to Marty.

[Brent Spiner]

Marty, come on.

[John Logan]

He read it over the weekend and said, I'm in. And so a week later, I was on a plane to New York to meet Marty Scorsede to talk about the Aviator.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Wow.

[Brent Spiner]

You were great in the Aviator.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Well, I had a lovely scene in the Aviator, thanks to John. He actually took a piece of chicken off of Danny Houston's coat and put it on mine. On the page.

[John Logan]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

So I'd have a little better part than. Than it was originally, but it was a thrilling experience to be. I. I was in it for two days. Yeah. I worked with Leo and. And Marty Scorsese, and between shots. One of the most interesting things I found about Scorsese is he directed like other people direct. It's not like some peculiar thing he's doing. It was very like, you direct. Any good director is seeking the same kind of thing. And he would. I mean, he had more time, obviously, on a feature like Aviator. Was it six months to shoot?

[John Logan]

It seems like it, yeah. It was long.

[Jonathan Frakes]

But they had the ability to, like. He would do a setup, and he would say to Leo, okay, let's do it this way. Play it like that, and let's do this like, 15, 16 times, and then we'll try it a different way. And that's what they did. No kidding. Yeah. I had a moment where I brought in a model of the airplane that my character was selling to Howard Hughes and put it down. It was covered with a cloth, and I pulled the cloth off to reveal the airplane. I did it maybe 10 different ways. It was like, okay, do it again. And pull it off a little more slowly. More slowly. Okay. Not just whip it off. Okay, now this time just pull it halfway and then pull it. I mean, he tried every possible. Absolutely. Thing you could do.

[Brent Spiner]

I was thinking in the editing room. He was already in the editing room with that shot.

[John Logan]

And being in the editing room with. With Thelma. Thelma Schumacher.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Schumacher.

[John Logan]

Extraordinary. Extraordinary. And the Aviator is the film I'm most proud of. I'm very proud of many of my movies. Every movie, in a way, as you know, is a. Is a. Is a battle and a victory if you survive it. And I've had some great movie experiences, but there's something about the Aviator that was very special. It was like. It was like Red for me, the playwright. It was something about the combination of that people at that time in all of our lives telling that story in that way, and a Hollywood that allowed us to do it. And there's the as. As Sue Manger said, we used to have fun.

[Jonathan Frakes]

You know, that's a big movie. We had person in common with Aviator on Next Generation. Rob Legato did all of the special effects brilliantly in Aviator. He was quite a genius.

[John Logan]

Yeah, that was a time that doesn't exist anymore in terms of moviemaking, to my experience, you know, because that was an expensive movie. It wasn't a franchise, it wasn't an upbeat movie.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Right.

[John Logan]

You know. Yes, it had. It had a one major movie star. But, you know, the second lead was Cate Blanchett, who no. Never had heard of really at that point.

[Brent Spiner]

But. Come on.

[John Logan]

Yeah, but. Yeah, exactly. And yet Graham King was able to put it together to. To make that. To get the money to make that movie in the right. In the right way.

[Brent Spiner]

Doesn't Scorsese get a movie made?

[John Logan]

Scorsese gets some movies made nowadays. Not everything.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Have you seen the documentary?

[John Logan]

I have not.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I loved it.

[John Logan]

Is it great?

[Jonathan Frakes]

You gotta watch it.

[Brent Spiner]

The story.

[Jonathan Frakes]

It's a four parter. Five parter, five part.

[Brent Spiner]

It's spectacular.

[Jonathan Frakes]

It's so revealing in ways you never imagined it.

[Brent Spiner]

Yes, that's what I thought.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Eye opening about who he is. And De Niro really comes off very well in it because he. He was there for Scorsese. It really did.

[John Logan]

But if you think of like the great filmmakers, the greats. Who would be. Who would be your five? My five. Off the top of my head. Scorsese, Orson Welles, Kubrick, Hitchcock. And I'll keep one left over.

[Brent Spiner]

I got Spielberg.

[John Logan]

Okay.

[Brent Spiner]

I love Spielberg.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I mean, you named for.

[Brent Spiner]

And Hitchcock.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah, Hitchcock for sure. Well, Scorsese for sure. Scorsese for sure.

[John Logan]

Ridley, Ridley.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Ridley is a under. I mean, unsung, unappreciated, great.

[Brent Spiner]

I mean, movie.

[Jonathan Frakes]

He makes great movies, but they're so varied.

[Brent Spiner]

I watched Alien recently, first.

[John Logan]

Unbelievable.

[Brent Spiner]

Unbelievable. Unbelievably exciting, Beautiful.

[John Logan]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Scary. But that guy made Thelma and Louise.

[Brent Spiner]

My exact point.

[Jonathan Frakes]

You know, it's like he. He can do anything.

[John Logan]

Ridley's like, you know, I worked with Ridley a couple times and he's like. He's like a general, you know, he really is. He's that guy, you know. I've not seen you on the set as how you direct what your sort of affect is. But Ridley's a general. It is like the troops are there. He's like Hannibal, the elephants and they're gonna go where he wants them to go. And God help them if they don't. You know. He's a serious, serious guy. He's also the best raconteur in Hollywood. You know, Dinner with Ridley Scott, you just laugh the entire time, and it's so joyous. He knows how to live beautifully and large and elegantly, but. But I don't think he gets the respect he deserves, you know, because he produces constantly high quality movies that are varied, as you say, Johnny.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah. You know, I maybe put Billy Wilder in that.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh, I'm reading the Cameron Crowe Billy Wilder book finally.

[John Logan]

I hear it's great.

[Brent Spiner]

It's.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I've read it. It's wonderful.

[Brent Spiner]

It's spectacular. And the pictures are.

[John Logan]

Just.

[Brent Spiner]

Makes me think of Jack Lemmon. You remind me so much of Jack Lemmon now, more and more.

[John Logan]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Well, out to see. Out to see what a great guy he was. They both were Walter and Jackie.

[Brent Spiner]

Let's bring them both in there.

[Jonathan Frakes]

And Donald o'. Connor. I mean, to work with those guys, I had to pinch myself every day.

[John Logan]

I always read that Walter Mattha was difficult. Difficult.

[Jonathan Frakes]

In the Mike Nichols book is where you read it?

[John Logan]

Yeah, I've read a lot.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah, that was a great.

[Jonathan Frakes]

It's a great biography. I read it and I recognized Walter, but that's not the guy I knew. I think he was that guy when he worked with Mike Nichols back in the day in the theater. But by the time I knew him, he. He was like, oh, he was so easy and so kind to me. Both of them were really. Yeah, they. They didn't need to be. They didn't need to.

[John Logan]

Walter. Ma. Jack Lemon. You know?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah. I mean, I. I tell you a quick story. The first day of work with. I was working with Walter, and I was really nervous about it, so I asked somebody who told me, I know Walter. I've known him for years. He knows trivia. He knows every trivia question you could possibly. I said, oh, good to know. Good to know. That's what I'll play. So we were being driven to the set from the trailer area, and he was in the front seat and I was in the back seat. And I said, walter, can I ask you a question? He says, yeah. I said, who. Who played Friar Tuck in Errol Flynn's Robin Hood? And he slowly turned around and he went, why do you ask me such a question? And I said, I'm told you know everything. And he laughed and he says, I know horse racing and how to lose money. And anyway, we had the day, and then I didn't work with him again for two weeks. And we were on a soundstage two weeks later. The door opens up and he walks in and walks up to me and goes, Eugene Palette. Yeah.

[John Logan]

Yes, absolutely. He was great.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I loved working. I loved him as a person. He was so sweet to me.

[John Logan]

Just watched a great Walter Mather movie that people don't know, which is the Taking of Pelham One Two Three. I love that movie with Robert Shaw. Martin Balsam.

[Brent Spiner]

Yes. The first one. Living in New York at that time when that opened. That was a great.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I love that movie.

[John Logan]

It totally captures Robert Shaw. Yeah, Robert Shaw. It totally. How about Jaws? It totally captures New York in that period.

[Jonathan Frakes]

And Walter is that gumshoe. Yeah, it's like.

[John Logan]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

When that last moment when he, he doesn't hear the sneeze. He hears the sneeze.

[John Logan]

Let's not give it away for the fans. But taking a pellet. One, two, three.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Oh. Walter's always great in everything, but he was very difficult with, with Mike Nicholson doing Odd Couple. Yeah, he really made it difficult. I didn't know that guy, that.

[John Logan]

So who are the most difficult actors you've ever worked with?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Well, that's an interesting question. You know, again, that's the question I want to ask every guest is who. Who did you not like working with? And of course nobody will answer.

[John Logan]

I'll answer. A few guys will answer.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Oh, really?

[John Logan]

Yeah. Someone you didn't like working with. You just have to say a name. You don't even tell a story.

[Brent Spiner]

I saw an actor who shall remain nameless mistreat a hairdresser. And then the second AD and then the PA and then someone else. As always, as he was making his way to the set and I was observing because I had been waiting for him. Got in the set and he lodged brothered me. Hey, brother, how you doing? I didn't have the balls to say, you have been such a fucking asshole. I just watched you be an asshole and I just didn't have the balls to say it to him because I had to work with him for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks. But I've never forgotten that kind of the importance of how you treat other people. It's like people. The quote you know about, you watch how people treat a waiter in a restaurant. It's the whole.

[John Logan]

It tells you all you need to know about. But also there's another part of that story, Johnny, which is being a professionalist. Business also means knowing you have to get along with the 800 pound gorilla. And sometimes that makes you compromise yourself. And that's the truth. You had to work with this guy. You had to. Yeah. So making that I was a hired Gun.

[Brent Spiner]

I was. It was his show, so it was.

[John Logan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

It's very rare, though, that you work with somebody who's awful. Very rare. I think, you know, the first. One of the first jobs I ever had, it was in the theater. And I worked with a guy who. He was playing my brother, and he was so mean to me. And I was a young kid and I was, like, so excited. My first job, good part. This guy was terrible to me. I really thought, oh, this is show business. This is what it's going to be in a professional. It has not turned out to be that at all. I. I don't. I rarely come across somebody who's really not pleasant.

[John Logan]

Very rarely. I mean, look, we all get anxious.

[Brent Spiner]

Are you going to tell us?

[John Logan]

Well, you didn't name names, so I'm not going to name names.

[Brent Spiner]

Fair enough.

[John Logan]

I will say it was. I was. I was hired to do a rewrite on a big franchise movie, and I shouldn't have done it because it wasn't a. It was. It was like a superhero thing. And it's just not my vibe. I don't get it.

[Jonathan Frakes]

But.

[John Logan]

But I did it. And the director, who subsequently lost his career because of Scandal, was so horrific.

[Brent Spiner]

Okay, I know who he is.

[John Logan]

Already challenging.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I know who he is. He's making a comeback right now.

[John Logan]

And. And there was, like, drugs and there was, like. It was. It was the strangest thing because I don't drink. I don't do drugs. I don't. I'm like the straightest little gay boy ever. But, like, there was. There was this. This person just dripped decadence and unhealthiness and was really. Don't even name names. But was crazed. But other than that, it's like I've had really. Even with challenging actors, like, Russell Crowe was challenging. But there's. There's weight there and there's intelligence there, and there's. There's a motivation to it.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I mean, there's some people who are famous for being unpleasant.

[Brent Spiner]

Well, that's what Akiva used to say about Russell on Beautiful Mind. It was worth it. Yeah, it was worth it. What. What you got? Yeah, I guess that's part of the.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah. I mean, there are guys, though. There's. There was a group of people I wanted to. I think they should all be in one movie together. What would that be like? But, you know, people who had reputations for not being. For being awful.

[John Logan]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

And a couple of them I met and didn't have that experience at all.

[Brent Spiner]

Well, you had the opposite. I. I Was told when I. Sir Ben Kingsley was in Thunderbirds. He played the hood.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

And I was told by Patrick and others, he hates directors, he's gonna chew your head off, he's gonna eat you for lunch breaks. Just be ready. And I was terrified. It was Sir Ben Kingsley. So first day in the set, he shows up early, he's in costume, he comes and hangs out in the set. He knows the entire crew were shooting at Pinewood. Couldn't have been sweeter. He was doing the show because his son was a fan of the Thunderbirds and he was doing it. You know, we staged the scene, we shot a couple of takes. I said, print. He said, jonathan, now that you've got a print, would you mind if I just play it? I thought, Gandhi. You're fucking kidding me. And he was a delight. And each take was different and everything about him was the opposite of what I had been told.

[John Logan]

Everything. Yeah, because he did. Hugo and I had heard the same thing from Sir Patrick, amongst other people, but he could not.

[Brent Spiner]

He must have been in competition constantly at Royal Shakespeare.

[John Logan]

Yeah, well, here's my. A bunch of problematic people around the same table. And what was so joyous. So before we started shooting Gladiator, we were in London. There were sort of going to be shooting it. I think we were on Shepperton because Ridley owned it then. So the producers decided to do a table read and table reads, you know, actors and writers and directors have very different. I hate them.

[Jonathan Frakes]

You hate them too.

[John Logan]

But the studio insisted. Yeah, but to suit the producer schedules, they had to do it at something like 9 o' clock on a Sunday morning because the producer had to fly to LA or something. 9:00 on a Sunday morning. So around that table at nine o' clock on a Sunday morning were Russell Crowe, Richard Harris, Oliver Reed, you know, Joaquin Phoenix, people who hadn't seen nine o' Clock on a Sunday Morning ever. Oliver Reed. So it was legendarily the worst table read in the history of Hollywood. Oliver Reed, total gem. Total. Because I really wanted to meet him to talk about Peter Cushing and talk about his Hammer work and Christopher Lee. And he could not have be. He was wicked and mischievous.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh yes.

[John Logan]

And. But he was so bulliant, you know, and wonderful.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah, he was an amazing actor.

[Jonathan Frakes]

You mentioned just a second ago, the movie Hugo. What a great movie. Hugo. I love Hugo. Have you seen him?

[Brent Spiner]

No.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Well, I think it may be the greatest 3D movie of all time.

[John Logan]

Totally.

[Jonathan Frakes]

It is so beautiful in 3D. You can't not believe your eyes. And you're in it. You're in Paris in the train station in the snow. It's a gorgeous film.

[John Logan]

Thank you. It was a challenge, Hugo, because Marty wanted to make it so he could make a movie his daughter could go to. And it's based on this beautiful Brian Selznick book, the Invention of Hugo Cabret. And I wrote the screenplay, and it was challenging because the Digital technology for 3D was very limited. So there was essentially one camera. So you're a film director. Big sequence, one camera. Not two, not three cameras. Chase scenes. And thankfully, it was all sets. It was all. It was all.

[Brent Spiner]

It was a camera array. It would be one camera with wide shits on the side so they could get.

[John Logan]

I think so, yeah. Yeah. But it was very unique, you know, and so.

[Brent Spiner]

And it was the beginning of that technology.

[John Logan]

It was very frustrating for Marty because he's used to multiple cameras if he needed them. And, you know. And also I added dogs to the movie, which he has never forgiven me for. Added dachshunds and Dobermans. And dachshunds are legendarily untrainable. And the trained dogs we had from la, they couldn't bring them in, so they had to get new dachshunds and new Dobermans and train them. So. So there were all these scenes where Marty Scorsese, the genius is there trying to get this dachshund to act for the one goddamn camera in 3D running through the train station set. It was. It was amazingly interesting.

[Jonathan Frakes]

That movie doesn't get. Is it. Does it play? Is it on anywhere? Can you ever see Hugo?

[John Logan]

You can see, like. I think it's like Criterion just put it out. Or someone. Someone just put it out as a serious.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Nominated for Best Picture, wasn't it?

[John Logan]

Oh, yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

I'm gonna watch it.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I thought it was the best movie.

[John Logan]

It's wonderful. It's wonderful. It's.

[Brent Spiner]

Tell me a little about Sam Mendes.

[John Logan]

Sam is. Sam is amazing because the reason Sam and I speak the same language, we're. We're men of the theater. We both came up in the theater.

[Brent Spiner]

Sam Mendes.

[John Logan]

So. So I. For years, you know, as a theater director, and, you know, because he ran the Donmar Warehouse, where I eventually had read, and I'd seen a lot of his work there, and he knew Sondheim because he had done, I think, Assassins there. But anyway, so. So I knew Sam from theater circles only. Nothing to do with film. But I was in New York working on. I don't know what it was, and I went to the what's that. What's that bar above Joe Allen's Bar Central? So I was in Bar Centrali at a booth with some friends. And we're sitting, and Sam was at the next booth. And I said, oh, hey, good to see you. How's it going? Good. How's things in London? Great. How's the play? Fantastic. So I must be working on a play. And at the end of the dinner, he said, hey, are you free for lunch tomorrow? I'm like, yeah, yeah, that'd be great. Let's just get together and have lunch. So I go to his place in New York, you know, Kate Winslet is serving salmon, you know, and he says, so I'm doing the Bond movie. And I didn't even know that. He said, do you want to come in on it?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Are you.

[John Logan]

Are you interested?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Skyfall.

[John Logan]

This is Skyfall. And I was like, this was good

[Brent Spiner]

for both of you.

[John Logan]

Yeah, it was so good. It was so good for both of you.

[Jonathan Frakes]

It was so good.

[John Logan]

We were at Bar Centrali that night after the show, you know, because it was the right place at the right time. And Sam and I had. Working on Skyfall is one of those movies or projects, you guys know them, where everything comes together just right. Right cast, the right script, the right producers, right studio, the right story, the right time, the right score. And it was the most joyous experience. Probably my favorite experience ever working in a movie was Skyfall. It was intense because we didn't have a third act. We had to figure out the third act where we were filming all over the world. And it was unbelievably fulfilling. And there's a table read for the ages. Cause it's Ralph Fiennes and Evie Bardem and Dan and everyone.

[Jonathan Frakes]

You know, John, you've had so many successes in film and theater, and some that didn't succeed, for sure. Do you ever work on something and find yourself going, I just simply can't. I have to back out of this because I can't find it.

[John Logan]

I almost. I almost did once. And it's a movie I think is going to get made. I was Denzel Washington.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh, please.

[John Logan]

Got in touch with me. Fuqua.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[John Logan]

And said. And said he wanted to. I never met Denzel Washington, but he wanted to talk about something. And so we went to the Polo Lounge. And Denzel, I'm sure you know him, is the most charming human being that's ever lived. Two most charming human beings ever. Clive Barker, the writer, the British writer, and Denzel Washington. And so I'm. I knew what he wanted to talk about, and I knew I wanted to pass.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Oh.

[John Logan]

But by the end of that lunch, I did not want to pass. And it's a movie about Hannibal, the Carthaginian general. I've told you about this, and for Netflix and Antoine Fuqua directing. And so I committed to doing it, thinking, like, I shouldn't have done this, because I did Gladiator and Last Samurai. It's like, I don't want to do the big epic. I want to do something different, like a horror movie or something, you know? But I. I agreed to do it, and I did all the research about Hannibal, which is like. It's like Roman sources and Greek sources and, you know. You know, a lot of research. And I'm like, I'm working, working, working. And I'm like, I cannot figure this out. It was the closest I have ever been to calling the producer or Netflix and saying, I'm so sorry. I can't crack it. I can't crack it. Wow. And then I cracked it. It was like an 11th hour. Because Brent knows I go hiking all the time. That's why I live in Malibu, so I can go hiking. And I'm right near the trails, and I was out hiking one day, and I said, oh, I know what this is. From that moment on, it was heaven to write. But that's the closest I've ever come.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Is that gonna get made?

[John Logan]

I think so. I hope so.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[John Logan]

Possibly this year.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I mean, that's the thing. You've also written many things that haven't been made that you completed.

[John Logan]

Heck, yes.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I've read things of yours that I thought were really good.

[John Logan]

My Hollywood noir.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I love that.

[John Logan]

Yeah, me too.

[Jonathan Frakes]

I love that.

[John Logan]

But every writer does. It's like. You know how it is. You, like, you develop things. You develop things, and sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. Sometimes they happen, and sometimes they don't. And that's the gig.

[Jonathan Frakes]

It is. But the difference is with you is you're so. I mean, you are Tregoran. You know, I have to write, he says, and that's a Chekhov in the Seagull. But you can have a project that sort of, like, peters out, even if a completed project. And you're three scripts ahead by that point already, you're looking back going, oh, too bad. That's not gonna. You know, when you're on to the

[John Logan]

next one, because you can only fall so much in love.

[Brent Spiner]

But you're also. Your mental health has been revealing itself through this entire interview.

[John Logan]

Yeah.

[Brent Spiner]

That attitude that you have about the business and about your work and about the way that the people that you respect and deal with you have a real water under the bridge. You're gonna live a long time.

[John Logan]

I hope so.

[Brent Spiner]

I mean, I really admire it.

[John Logan]

Yeah. But it took. You know, you have to learn it the same way you guys had to learn it. And I learned it in the theater.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[John Logan]

You know, which is. Which is look things. And look, when you fail in the theater, it's in real time with real people sitting there, and you can feel it.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh, yeah.

[John Logan]

And you're in that, and you're like, I wrote a bad play. I wrote a play people don't like, and they don't like me, you know, so you feel it, and you build up that skin. You've done it. You've been. You've been in failures, you know, in the theater as well.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Oh, yeah. Oh, it's awful in this theater to be. Because, you know, way before opening night. This is a disaster.

[John Logan]

Yeah. Of course.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Although I've been in shows, too, that I thought were a disaster and then were a huge success. Yeah.

[John Logan]

And vice versa. Those shows, you're like, oh, this is. I'm cruising to a Tony.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah. I mean, the last show I did in New York, lifetimes 3. I thought it was Yasmina Riza. She wrote Art. This is a new play of hers. The audience is standing every night in previews, and the play opens and gets no good reviews. Not one. And what just happened. The theater's a strange bird.

[John Logan]

But I also like, because we're veterans and because we've been in the business about the same time, same amount of time doing different things, but in the business, you know, it's. You learn that. I believe the way to survive it is you have to love what you do. And you have to realize there's a bigger picture, which is, I can only do so much, and I can only fall in love so much with this script or this play or this movie, because I cannot control it. You know, someone else has to pay for it. It's like William Faulkner, famously, when he left the Oxford, Mississippi, post office to make his way as a writer, said, I know I'm always going to be working for some son of a bitch with money, but I don't have to work for every son of a bitch with five cents for a postage stamp, you know, and we all have Faulkner, quote.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Come on.

[John Logan]

Faulkner. Hello, William Faulkner, please. And so it's like we. It takes money to make movies. It takes money to put on a Play. It takes all of it takes resources. We're not poets in our garrets. We're in show business. And that means we have to collaborate, we have to be funded. We have all of those things that take power away from us. Where we have our power is when I'm writing, I am writing. There's no one over my shoulder. When you're on the floor, it's mine. It's yours. When you're on that stage or on that soundstage, it is yours, you know, but everything around it is not yours.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Right?

[John Logan]

So, like, my first big, serious movie script was any Given Sunday, which is a football movie, I did with Oliver Stone. And to this day, I credit Oliver Stone at Ridley Scott for teaching me what it is to be a screenwriter. Because I've been a playwright, you know, for a starving playwright for 10 years. I was 30. I wasn't a kid, you know, And I knew what a playwright does as a dramatist, but I knew nothing about film, except I loved it. And, like, I loved Hitchcock and Truffaut, and I loved. I loved, like, learning about movies, especially horror movies and Hammer and Universal and. But Oliver Stone sat me down and taught me about screenwriting.

[Jonathan Frakes]

And he was a damn good screenwriter.

[John Logan]

Damn good Oscar. I mean, I remember I went to his house and his two Oscars were there, and he said, go on, pick him up.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[John Logan]

You know, and that's a Glo. That's a wonderful thing for someone writing, really, their first serious big screenplay.

[Brent Spiner]

Oh, man.

[Jonathan Frakes]

You know, the first thing you did for Ridley was. Was the.

[Brent Spiner]

Did Oliver Stone get one?

[Jonathan Frakes]

No.

[John Logan]

Thank you. Citizen Kane. That's right.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Leif Schreiber, right?

[John Logan]

Yes. Lee Schreiber. James. Jamie Cromwell, right. Played. Played Hearst. Melanie Griffith. Roy Scheider, right. Which was amazing, because I got to. Yeah, I got to have lunch with Roy Scheider. We filmed. It's either Sheppard or Pine, I don't remember, in England. And I said, tell me about Sorcerer, because William Friedkin's Sorcerer, I think, is his masterpiece. All respect to French Connection, Exorcist. Sorcerer is French Connection, but Sorcerer is.

[Jonathan Frakes]

What's the French film? Wages of Fear, which Clouseau, which is a fantastic movie.

[John Logan]

Not as good as Sorcerer. I will. I will argue, not as good as Sorcerer.

[Jonathan Frakes]

It's hard to say.

[John Logan]

I mean, this is our listeners. They have Sorcerer to watch. They have taken a Pelham One Two Three to watch, you know, Dave. Hugo to watch. Thank you.

[Jonathan Frakes]

And you know what?

[John Logan]

And better yet, by Hugo. So I get a little take.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Another favorite film of yours from me. And the most unexpected film from you is Rango.

[John Logan]

Rango. Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Rango's great. It's funny. I mean, you know.

[John Logan]

You know why Rango, I think, is successful is we did it independently. It was during the writer strike. Not the last one, the one before that. And. And, you know, so I couldn't write any screenplays, but animation was not covered. So Gore Verbinski came to me and said, do you want to do an animated movie? And I had done one disastrous animated movie called Sinbad Legend of the Seven Seas, or DreamWorks, which practically sunk. DreamWorks Animation is how unsuccessful it was. So I said, I don't know, but Gore Verbinski is just an exciting person. And so we started talking about Chinatown. We started talking about a Western. We started about Johnny Depp as a lizard, and. And we just did it independently. No one paid for it. Graham King came in and paid for the overages and what the overages were. We rented this house in Flintridge, like, locking out of Flintridge, and all the animators were there working on the maquettes while we were figuring out the story. And Goro and I would go hike into the hills above, like, La Canada and Flintridge, work out the story while they were working on creating the, like, sort of the clay versions of the characters. So it all came together independently. There was no studio. There was no one to give a note. And that's why the movie is so gnarly and so unique. And you literally. It's funny, too, and it's really funny, and it has scenes where, like, Rango's gonna commit suicide by walking across a road that wouldn't make it into a Pixar movie or a Disney movie, you know, but we were able to do it independently, and it won the Oscar for Best Animated Film. So.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Great movie.

[Brent Spiner]

Yeah.

[John Logan]

Yeah, I enjoyed that. And that was the first time I worked with Johnny, too.

[Jonathan Frakes]

John and I have lunch at least every six months at ALO in Malibu. So if you ever want to see us eating together, go to Alo every day for the next six months, and you'll find you're bound to see us.

[John Logan]

I will see us. And we'll chitter chatter for hours.

[Jonathan Frakes]

We dish a little more.

[John Logan]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Frakes]

You know, we're completely open about what we don't like and who we don't like.

[John Logan]

We let our hair down a bit more, you know?

[Jonathan Frakes]

Exactly.

[John Logan]

Although, you know, only so much. It's like, the other thing, like, I think to be successful and to have a career like we've had is, you have to be benevolent.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah.

[John Logan]

If you're benevolent, I want people to. I don't want people to fail. It's like Gore Vidal said, like, it's not enough that I win. Others must fail. Yeah. I don't believe that. It's like I'm happy. Like, I lost the Oscar three times. I'm like, happy they won. It's like, it's okay. I don't do it for the awards. You don't do it for the awards.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Right. You know, well, I'm hoping to get a Nobel Peace Prize. Well, yeah, I think I.

[John Logan]

Well, overdue.

[Brent Spiner]

You would clearly deserve it.

[John Logan]

Well overdue.

[Brent Spiner]

How many wars have you. We don't want to go there.

[John Logan]

Yeah. Okay.

[Brent Spiner]

We've avoided it all. All day. We've avoided.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah, we've avoided all day. Except a little bit with Ron Pearl.

[John Logan]

I'm intrigued by the. By the set deck.

[Brent Spiner]

Well, if you watch our little clip, it's a. In our theme song, it references drinking and smoking and things that. That we don't do as much.

[John Logan]

None of which we're actually doing.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah, yeah. No, we're not.

[Brent Spiner]

We discussed that. Could, like, what's his name? Who does the chat show? The English chat show.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah. Graham Norton.

[Brent Spiner]

Graham Norton.

[John Logan]

Oh, my God. With the drinking.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah, they all have drinks and whatever they drink. Yeah, yeah. He's great. He does a great show.

[Brent Spiner]

You are a delight.

[Jonathan Frakes]

It was such a pleasure being a guest. It was a pleasure and a friend. I'm so glad you were here. If we. If we dry up, we're just going to do you for the rest of the season. We just one after another.

[John Logan]

Anytime.

[Brent Spiner]

We'll send a car.

[John Logan]

Yeah, good. Yeah, even better.

[Jonathan Frakes]

And we'll change the name of the show.

[John Logan]

Yeah. Maybe we'll lose the bell.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[John Logan]

No, protect the bell. Seriously. Pleasure.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah, thanks, Jeff.

[John Logan]

Pleasure.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Hey, we just wanted to take a moment and personally thank you.

[Brent Spiner]

We're only here because you showed up

[Jonathan Frakes]

and honestly, that means a lot to us.

[Brent Spiner]

It's really everything, isn't it?

[Jonathan Frakes]

It is.

[Brent Spiner]

So if you enjoyed it, like the video, subscribe, stick around for more.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Like the video, subscribe, stick around. We've got a lot more conversations and

[Brent Spiner]

stories coming and if you really want to go a little deeper.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Yeah. Check out our Patreon.

[Brent Spiner]

That's where we share extended episodes, behind the scenes moments, and some fun extras.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Thanks again for being here.

[Brent Spiner]

See you next time.

[Jonathan Frakes]

Sa.