Ep 505: How Pins and Aces Built a $25M Golf Brand with Limited Drops and Omni-Channel Expansion

Summary

DTC Podcast Episode 505 Summary: How Pins and Aces Built a $25M Golf Brand with Limited Drops and Omni-Channel Expansion

Host: DTC Newsletter and Podcast
Guest: Nick, Founder of Pins and Aces
Release Date: May 5, 2025

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1. Introduction to Pins and Aces

In Episode 505, the DTC Podcast welcomes Nick, the innovative founder behind Pins and Aces, a flourishing golf brand that has scaled to $25 million in revenue. The discussion delves into the brand's journey, strategic decisions, and the entrepreneurial mindset that fueled its growth.

2. Founding Story and Early Challenges

Nick shares his entrepreneurial journey, highlighting the inception of Pins and Aces in 2018. Frustrated by the high cost and poor quality of available golf head covers, he identified a market gap:

“I had purchased a new driver...it came with this ugly, horrendous head cover...I think we could make a really nice head cover for a lot less money than this.” ([02:04])

Initially a side project while managing another e-commerce venture, Pins and Aces gained traction around 2020 when Nick could fully dedicate his efforts to the brand.

3. Product Development and Innovation

The brand's success is rooted in its commitment to quality and affordability. Starting with head covers priced at $50, Pins and Aces differentiated itself from expensive alternatives without compromising on design:

“We're making a really high quality product at an affordable price for a lot of people.” ([09:39])

Nick emphasizes the importance of evolving product lines, introducing innovative items like the Beer Sleeve and Liquor Stick—unique accessories that resonated with the golfing community:

“The beer sleeve came in, and that was really what took the business to the next level...” ([11:08])

4. Go-To-Market Strategy and Branding

Pins and Aces employs a robust go-to-market strategy that blends organic growth with strategic collaborations. From leveraging Instagram in its early days to developing a compelling brand narrative focused on American manufacturing and ethical practices:

“We're an American business...Create the Instagram page, start with the website and work on email collection...” ([07:59])

Limited edition drops have been pivotal in driving hype and customer engagement. By releasing small batches and collaborating with popular franchises like South Park and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, the brand maintains excitement and exclusivity:

“We try and have a drop like once a month, limited edition...it drives a lot of hype, a lot of shares on Instagram.” ([30:36])

5. Marketing Mix and Growth Drivers

Nick outlines the marketing mix that has propelled Pins and Aces to success. While influencer marketing was initially effective, its efficacy has diminished. Instead, the brand focuses on organic strategies and community engagement:

“Having an organic strategy of your own...is more important and more impactful.” ([20:13])

Collaborations play a significant role in expanding reach and adding legitimacy. Recent partnerships include a significant collaboration with Hey Dude for golf shoes and the acquisition of Edel Golf to diversify the product range:

“South park has been really, really big...we're launching next week with hey, dude.” ([14:02])

6. Omni-Channel Expansion and Retail Presence

Pins and Aces adopts an omni-channel approach, balancing direct-to-consumer sales with retail partnerships. Presence in major retail outlets like Golf Galaxy and PGA Superstore, coupled with a robust online presence, ensures broad market coverage:

“We're in, like, Golf Galaxy and PGA Superstore, along with about 1500 pro shops.” ([24:07])

Live selling has emerged as a crucial component, leveraging platforms like Whatnot to engage directly with customers through interactive sessions:

“We're doing a lot more of [live selling] on platforms like Whatnot and even on our own channel...” ([25:11])

7. Overcoming Challenges and Market Competition

The brand navigates a competitive landscape where low barriers to entry have led to numerous entrants. Differentiation through quality, community-centric strategies, and strategic collaborations helps Pins and Aces maintain its edge:

“There's definitely a lot of competition...Success is, you know, a lot of work that goes in behind it.” ([23:12])

8. Tools and Technology Enhancing Growth

Nick highlights the use of advanced tools like Particle for competitor analysis and market trends, enabling informed decision-making in product development and marketing strategies:

“Particle is great...we use that with new product development.” ([36:42])

9. Future Goals and Vision

Looking ahead, Nick outlines ambitious goals to scale the business to $25 million in revenue within the year, emphasizing profitability and sustainability. He envisions optionality for future exits or continued growth, maintaining control within the founding team:

“This year it's like, hey, we'd like to hit that top line goal but we'd like to be more profitable than last year...” ([33:38])

Strategic acquisitions, such as Edel Golf, position the brand for further diversification and market penetration.

10. Advice for Entrepreneurs

Nick offers valuable insights for aspiring entrepreneurs, stressing resilience and the importance of balancing technical and commercial success:

“You just really have to stick with it...It doesn't mean you're going to have a commercial success.” ([41:13])

11. Closing Remarks

The episode concludes with Nick reflecting on the importance of evolving the brand face, maintaining community engagement, and staying adaptable in a dynamic market. His commitment to the brand's mission and vision underscores the principles driving Pins and Aces' continued success.

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Notable Quotes:

• “When we started Pins and ACEs in 2018...get some golf influencers. Have them post about Pins and Aces head covers. We would see crazy sales.” ([00:00])

• “The sky's the limit for your content marketing opportunities...make them feel a part of this journey together.” ([21:20])

• “We have to have a reason for someone to come in and purchase that and be like, hey, I want to support pins and aces.” ([27:05])

Nick’s candid discussion offers a comprehensive look into building a successful DTC brand in the competitive golf market, providing actionable insights for entrepreneurs aiming to scale their ventures effectively.

Transcript

[Nick]

When we started Pins and ACEs in 2018, that was part of it. Like, hey, get some golf influencers. Have them post about Pins and Aces head covers. We would see crazy sales. Give me 300 bucks and we'd make five grand. Now with influencer marketing, it's completely flipped the other way. And I think having an organic strategy of your own, people in the face of the brand, doing their own influencing to your audience and talking about the product and the business is more important and more impactful. I'm a big fan of live selling. We're doing a lot more of that.

[Eric Dick]

Are drops still a big part of the business?

[Nick]

Oh, yeah, they're a massive part of the business for sure. We try and have a drop like once a month, limited edition. It's always a struggle with founders or faces of the brand. You're working in the business instead of working on the business.

[Eric Dick]

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[Nick]

Thanks. Thanks for having me.

[Eric Dick]

Let's go over your background. Tell me about why you started Pins and Aces.

[Nick]

Yeah, Pins and Aces really was derived from a need or necessity, in my opinion. I had purchased a new driver, you know, golf driver, and it came with this ugly, horrendous head cover. And I'm like, oh, this is terrible. I'm going to go buy a different head cover. You know, you get. You see other head covers and I'm like, this, this is terrible. So I went to go look at buy a head cover and they were crazy. They were like 150, $200 now quality head covers. None nonetheless. But I didn't want to spend 200 on a head cover. It was like half the price of the driver. And so that's kind of where it started. I'm like, I think I could make. Is this really, like there are no other head covers out there? And looked at some other brands that were really cheap and really terrible. I'm like, I think we could make a really nice head cover for a lot less money than this. And so that's kind of how it started. That was in 2018. We had a couple head covers. We were selling on Amazon. I was involved in another venture, E Commerce space that I was involved in. So I didn't really have a lot of time to go and make golf head covers. So it was kind of like a side hustle project until about 2020 and then it, you know, kind of took off.

[Eric Dick]

The thing I'm loving lately is the idea that you can literally just do. You can literally just do things. And it sounds like that's what you did with the golf. Like how did you go about making a golf head cover?

[Nick]

Well, if we back up a little bit on the, you know, the story of where I'm at, it's really tough for me to work for anybody. I've always kind of been an entrepreneur. In college I had started a business and I ran that out of my parents basement after I graduated. Didn't get a job, ran this little bracelet business, E Commerce and I ended up selling it to my largest competitor 16 months after I graduated. So nice, nice little exit. And then I started working who is now my father in law, but my girlfriend at the time, Mary Doerr, but her father was an owner of a mannequin company. They made mannequins. And so I was gonna go get an mba and he's like, hey, you're an entrepreneur, you don't need to get your mba. Come work for me. You're gonna learn more than, you know, getting an mba. So I worked with him in a mannequin company and had a lot of experience traveling, traveling the world from their manufacturing side. And I met a lot of cool people and mannequins obviously work with like apparel and garments. And that's how we moved into apparel. We had those kind of connections. But with the, with the head cover, it was literally as easy as going to Alibaba. That's where we first started. And Making, you know, finding someone who can source and manufacture a head cover. And that's where it kind of started, just like you said, you know, you just kind of have to take the plunge and commit to it. And we did, we brought in some head covers. The first round too was not great. We thought it was amazing. But you grow and evolve from there. And so, yeah, just like you said, you know, a lot of people can start up and then building a brand upon that is, is more difficult and you know, we can talk about that. But yeah, that's how it started. I think a lot of people can, can start something like that.

[Eric Dick]

Can you just back up a little bit more and tell me why you love golf so much?

[Nick]

I don't know. I've played it my whole life and you know, famously try and try to be a college golfer. And there's a longer story to that and it didn't really pan out. I knew I was good, but not ever going to be like a pro level golfer. And I got really burned out throughout college trying to play seriously competitive golf. And now I just like hanging out with the boys and, you know, drinking a few beers and going out and having a good time. But golf is fun if a lot of people who take it up and they're now addicted to it because it is such a fun sport.

[Eric Dick]

I was just watching a clip with Tony Hinchcliffe yesterday, the comedian who was going off about how much he loves golf and he brought up an element that I'd never heard before. He was actually like, I'm glad my president golfs once or twice a week. He's like, he's like for the, the mental, like just, just the, the meditative aspect of the whole process of like pin seeking, being out with the boys, being out in the grass, being like all these different things. Like there's, there's a lot that it's, that it's good for mentally if you're not breaking your putter, no doubt.

[Nick]

And like the winter months and you're being up in Canada, it's like miserable, you're, you're depressed, you can't get out and play golf. And once spring comes around, you're itching to get back and it is, it's like a long week at the office. You go out and play golf. It is fun and we look forward to that.

[Eric Dick]

My buddy was just golfing yesterday on the course beside my house actually, because it doesn't snow that much where I'm in Victoria. But it was a, it was just like sending pictures of Just the pure slog through the mud that it was. So.

[Nick]

Right.

[Eric Dick]

Yeah, definitely, definitely. Winter rules in effect.

[Nick]

Exactly.

[Eric Dick]

Okay, so talk to me about your go to market strategy. Like even on that first round of head covers that weren't that great, did you have to redo them or did you go to market with what you had?

[Nick]

Oh no, we went to market with what we had and it was, you know, looking when we, looking back, I mean now our quality is amazing and the level of detail and we've expanded upon what we've done. The first round of head covers, we were like, I got them in, I'm like, this, this is amazing. This is great, like fantastic. We're going to create a Shopify site, we're going to get them on Amazon, we're going to be millionaires by the weekend. Didn't happen that way. But we did put them up and we had some background in the previous e commerce business called Adam's Polishes that I was involved in. Kind of knew the playbook of developing a brand and a strategy around that and so kind of knew the basic fundamentals that you'd want on a website and then certainly on Amazon. And so yeah, I mean the, the first round wasn't great, but we evolved upon it and they did start selling and there were some organic things. Got onto Instagram, you know, in 2018. Not a lot of tons of commerce through Instagram really. So we were fortunate in that regard and just kept, you know, picking away at it. Wasn't really something we put a lot of effort in into until really 2020 and then really expanded the product line to apparel and bags and everything else.

[Eric Dick]

What were your go to steps for creating the brand initially? Like what you said you sort of had that playbook a little bit. Like what were you thinking about, about not just making this an Alibaba, you know, drop shipping business or whatever, but really building the brand.

[Nick]

Right. So building the. We really focused off, you know, first and foremost we had another. Well, we were doing it out of my basement. But we were saying that hey, we're American business here, we're not drop shipping. We kind of leaned into that. Like, hey, this isn't just a drop shipping brand. It's going to be shipped from Colorado to you. And just because you're making a product overseas doesn't mean you're not employing Americans and growing the business. It's same thing with Apple. They can build this beautiful Cupertino facility and employ all these Americans, but their iPhones are made in China. And same thing with US Some of our products are made overseas, although we've had a commitment to bring it back to the U.S. but the playbook would be, hey, what's your story? You know, what's your position where we want to make a better head cover doesn't need to cost an arm and a leg. We're fulfilling the orders from here. Create the Instagram page, start with the website and work on email collection, data collection. How can we analyze or cac to ltv all of those things from kind of day one. And then when we come out with a second sku, a third sku, we can really kind of build upon that. And we also had this like kind of hype marketing. We were like, oh, we're a cool new brand. We've got this limited edition and the limited edition we said we had only 50 of and we're gonna sell out. Well, I would only sell two or three of them and then I would turn the product page off and I would either give them away or send them to influencers. And hey, we only legitimately had three to sell. And it kind of built this, this brand of like, hey, there's an organic. This is a cool component. That was a sweet design. I'm gonna get the next drop. And so we kind of built upon that.

[Eric Dick]

You mentioned how head covers were so expensive. You're solving that. What price point did you enter the market with?

[Nick]

Yeah, so our price point on head covers was originally priced at $50 for a head cover. Now we're a little bit higher price than that at 69 or 59.95 for driver head covers. But that was a reasonable, I thought, price point for the market. I mean there's some. Sure. And we still get. You're way too expensive. Well, yeah, but, but the other brands that are in like 20, $30, the designs aren't that great. And we're certainly not a $200 head cover. And that's okay. We don't pretend to be like we're some crazy really high end expensive product. We make a really high quality product at an affordable price for a lot of people.

[Eric Dick]

And you have, you know, the brand is really solid. I love the brand name and the logo and everything. But you've also, you've just added so much like Creativ SKUs have expanded. Right. And there's so. There's so many different kinds of golfers. So many different in jokes that golfers have or how much did like even in those early days, did you, did you have a lot of personality in the head covers, or did that just evolve as you added more SKUs?

[Nick]

I think it evolved. You know, we had like the Colorado flag, and we still sell that, that same head cover, albeit it's a little bit better. But that was one of our first ones that we did. We had like a Texas flag, a USA head cover. They were just pretty generic in terms of the evergreen collection, but still a cool head cover. And since then, we've expanded with limited editions and, you know, higher quality designs, more intricacy with. With future and subsequent drops.

[Eric Dick]

Super cool. Is the liquor stick your product, or is that one you license from someone else?

[Nick]

No. So that's a funny story. The beer sleeve and the liquor stick are like birdie juice.

[Eric Dick]

Yeah, you need the birdie juice.

[Nick]

Yeah. So the. The beer sleeve came, and that was really what took the business to the next level, was in 2020, okay, Covid is here. We had kind of expanded the product line. We were starting to make apparel, expanding it a little bit. And Covid, obviously everyone was playing golf. People were buying online, so we kind of rode that wave. But the beer sleeve came in, I think it was in like the 90s. Someone made a. Maybe it was Burton or something. They made a beer sling that was for skier skiers, and it held like 10 beers, and it was long and thick. I'm like, this would be great. I bought one and I'm like, it doesn't fit in the golf bag, though. So we tightened it up and made it literally just fit a can perfect and then shortened it to seven beers so it wouldn't stick out of the top of your bag. And so we were the first ones to ever come up with that for the golf bag. And that went crazy. We were selling 50, 000 beer sleeves a month, just all organic. You know, people seeing it, sharing it, doing this, and it was crazy. And now, unfortunately, everyone makes a beer sleeve. And they knocked us off completely. But we were the first ones in golf to make the beer sleeve. And then the next idea was like, hey, okay, we have beer. How can we do liquor? And so came up with this idea. I built it out of PVC pipe to kind of test it. And can we get a battery powered pump? The beer sleeve also doesn't fit in every golf bag, but the liquor stick would hold the 750. And then I made sure to patent that product before we went to market and made sure no one else could knock it off. And that's been a wildly successful product. Run version 3 of that, with some improvements along the way. And that's been a great one for sure.

[Eric Dick]

Talk about your market, your growth strategy a little bit. Like, obviously, I'm just on your Instagram page now. You got 142,000 followers. Pretty strong engagement. What does your marketing mix look like now? What's driving the growth today?

[Nick]

Yeah, I think, you know, there's always a mix between organic and inorganic, but we still want to maintain the face of the brand. And it's now less so me and more so a younger guy coming in who's my brother in law, actually Liam, who does a lot of our.

[Eric Dick]

Oh, nice.

[Nick]

But, you know, really high engagement with our customer base and with our, you know, our following with organic. We're going out to the golf course, we're doing something funny or, you know, silly or whatever and posting it organically, showing the warehouse, doing giveaways, engaging with our community. I think that's really important on. On growth. And then collaborations has been a big one too. We do a lot of collaborations and that gets that company's audience to us and vice versa. And it makes kind of the, you know, adds legitimacy to your brand. Number one, for people who still don't know about pins and aces, but two, it's like, hey, I haven't heard of pins and aces, but I really love south park and I'm gonna buy this ball marker. So that. That's helped a lot too.

[Eric Dick]

What have the most successful collabs been?

[Nick]

South park has been really, really big. Same with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Those are really cool. And then we're launching next week with hey, dude. So that's our first, like, shoe. Huge collaboration. They came to us, we're like, hey, we want to make a golf shoe. We're gonna make our first ever golf shoe with you guys. So we worked on them for. For like a year. And. And that's a huge one. I'm hoping that's successful. I'm guessing it will be. They're a huge brand, so we're looking forward to that one.

[Eric Dick]

Super cool. And then what's Edel Golf? Is that a more. Is that a club brand?

[Nick]

Yeah. So Adele, like the singer is like how you'd pronounce that or.

[Eric Dick]

Thank you.

[Nick]

There's. There's like two different ways to say it. Edel or Adele. I say Adele, like the singer. We acquired that business in early January. And so we always had said, we aren't shoes. We do everything but shoes, clubs and balls. Don't want to get into the shoe game. But we had a partner with, hey, dude. A lot of sizes don't know that market. Same thing with clubs. But we had an opportunity to acquire that, that business and we looked at it seriously at the end of last year and then purchased it at the beginning of January, January 6th. So that just allows us to kind of diversify and get into other markets with. With clubs. And I think it's kind of the next evolution for the brand.

[Eric Dick]

And how many SKUs do you have now? Oh, man, hundreds and hundreds.

[Nick]

Yeah, I think right around 1300 SKUs.

[Eric Dick]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Total. So pretty crazy.

[Eric Dick]

And then is it pretty diversified in terms of the kinds of products that make the most sales?

[Nick]

Yeah. You know, again, starting from a head cover, a single head cover, to this many SKUS apparel, like this waffle material that we went out to Vietnam to source and develop this waffle material. Really great. And then golf bags. Last year we started selling our player preferred golf bag. And in terms of revenue, that's been our best selling bag or best selling product is the golf bag. But it's a pretty equal mix between apparel, accessories, head covers and golf bags. It's pretty. Which is nice because we want to. You definitely want the hero products for sure, but it's nice to have like an even mix and then try and build them all up together.

[Eric Dick]

Have you had any interaction with the PGA or the live tour or any of these actual pro golf tours organizations?

[Nick]

Yeah, definitely. And I think there's. We do have a few guys on the PGA Tour. One of them is Rafa Campos. He's a Puerto Rican and he actually won about a month, I think it was in November. He had his first PGA Tour win and he was wearing pins and aces. He's been wearing it for the last couple of years, which was amazing. To see a guy on TV wearing your polo and then winning, that was really cool. For sure. Know, a lot of the guys on tour, we don't do a lot of sponsorships with players, but there's certainly like, with the PGA Tour, like the event down actually at the Puerto Rico Open next week, they'll carry pins and aces in their merchandise tent and, you know, we'll. We'll sell it that way. But don't do too much with players in terms of like a marketing aspect. I don't know if that's what you're asking, but yeah, kind of. Yeah. So some of them definitely work with them on like the lower tiers. It's. It's hard to see an roi, though, if we want to talk about marketing. To pay a guy to wear your stuff, use your stuff, it's Expensive. And we're pretty good with Google and Facebook and that's kind of been our breadwinner.

[Eric Dick]

And then when it comes to ads, like, obviously have this big SKU catalog, but when it comes to ads, are you focused on your hero products and then opening up the other products with, you know, retention and email, SMS or whatever? Or are you. Are you. Do a lot of your products have ads that direct to them?

[Nick]

A lot of them do have ads. We probably have 35 different campaigns going with a bunch of different subset ads within there. And again, because we don't have like one main hero product, you know, the ads there, we have apparel ads, head cover ads, liquor stick, golf bags, all of those. And then obviously it kind of depends on the year and timing and which ones are performing. Sure, we'll juice the ones that are doing better, but you do get a lot of overflow in that, hey, someone saw a golf bag ad, but then they wanted to buy the Polo. They came to the site and saw the Polo. And so we track that pretty closely.

[Eric Dick]

Describe to me what happened in 2020. Why did the business blow up in 2020?

[Nick]

Yeah, well, Covid, number one. So Covid was good for us in the sense that people were buying online and we were digitally native at the time. And golf, it's like one of the thing only things that you could do during COVID So that blew up and then ironically I was in the wear. And at this point we. We had grown the business to 2020 and it was doing a few million dollars a year. But I still had the other business that I was involved in that I had to focus day to day. So I'd come to now we had a warehouse, an office for the rest of the Pins and Aces stuff at that point. And I got a direct message on Instagram, a DM from Bud Light. This was before they went crazy, but. And they were like, hey, we want to do a collab. You can do whatever you want. We want to get, you know, our audience into golf. You guys can do stuff. So we did like a beer sleeve, polos, head covers, all this stuff, Bud Light. And it went crazy. And then they gave it to like Post Malone and George Kittle and all their guys who were on Bud Light. And they kind of posted it and blew it up there. And then Pins and Aces just like exploded from that. And that was really helpful. That was really nice of them to do that collab, but that was really kind of like a turning point in the business. And the beer sleeve had just come out right in 2020. That's why Bud Light, they saw it when it was going viral. They wanted to do the collab. They wanted a Bud Light beer sleeve. And so we just kind of capitalized on that and took advantage of it.

[Eric Dick]

Timed that really well. I know that they're very lucky. Deep into overdrive on rehabbing the brand now with Shane Gillis.

[Nick]

Yeah, for sure.

[Eric Dick]

And I think they're doing a good job of it. I think. I think they are done a good job of re. Re establishing that brand. Maybe it's time for a new collab.

[Nick]

Yeah, I'm not opposed to it.

[Eric Dick]

And then. So within paid media, maybe within meta. How big of a strategy are influencers within your sort of, like, paid social game?

[Nick]

Yeah, you know, the influencer market was. It was crazy, especially with the previous business, Adam's polishes that we had built up in 15 and 16. It was great. You could get in the influencers. And when we started Pins and ACEs in 2018, that was part of it. Like, hey, get some golf influencers. Have them post about Pins and Aces head covers. We would see crazy sales for it. Like, hey, give me 300 bucks and we'd make five grand. I'm like, this is amazing. Now with influencer marketing, it's like they want the opposite. They want five grand, but you're gonna make 300. So it's completely flipped the other way. And I think people see the influencer marketing as they kind of see through it. You know, you find a big following. Hey, here's this Pins and Aces head cover. They're just getting paid. Like, I don't want to buy that. Before, it was way more organic. It felt more organic to the customer, and so it's not as effective as it used to be. And that's where I think having an organic strategy of your own, people in the face of the brand, doing their own influencing to your audience and talking about the product and the business is. Is more important and more impactful. There's still a need for it, but way less than what we. We used to do.

[Eric Dick]

The sky's the limit for your content marketing opportunities. I feel like, Right. Like, people have such an affinity for golf. You. You talk. You know golf. You're talking all the way through golf. Like, there's podcasts, there's. It's the kind of a brand that you could, like, spin out, like, network, like barstool, potentially off of something like Pins and Aces. What. What has your content marketing strategy kind of looked like right now?

[Nick]

Yeah. So, I mean, a lot of it is driven around product launches for sure. But how can we make that product launch feel more organic? How can we bring the customer along with us to make them feel like they're a part of this, this journey together? You know, from if we're coming out with a new product where we're showing the process on how we did that and hey, tune in, there's going to be something in a couple days, we're going to talk more about it and you're kind of bringing them into this journey and then again talking about that. We have our own podcast that we launched last year and we're talking kind of the intricacies of, of the business, but also golf in general products, like how that works, how do we source products, how do we do all of this stuff? And so that's been effective too. But again it's, it's just like what you're saying. It's, we have to bring the customer in and make them feel a part of it and there's a lot to talk about.

[Eric Dick]

And then when it comes to. So I kind of first even learned about this world, I'm a very mediocre, you know, couple times a year golfer and so I wasn't as tuned into it. I met Colin Landforce online and such an interesting character and he's built out a media niche just really talking about the business of sourcing golf products. I'm curious about how competition has been in the space and whether it's been a net positive because everyone's realizing that you don't just have to buy the same five different kinds of branded golf shirts and that there's this whole other world. Or has it been tough because there's way more of these competitors vying for attention?

[Nick]

Yeah, I think so. It's funny, I was, I just got off the phone with Colin like an hour ago.

[Eric Dick]

Nice. Best last name I know.

[Nick]

Yeah, I know the real last name. I thought it was just his thing, but yeah, for sure. I think there's definitely a lot of competition that it's a very low barrier to entry for someone to make a screen printed polo and a head cover and or ball marker. Like we see that all the time but they, they come and then they fizzle. They come and then they fizzle because the legwork and the back end stuff that goes into not just having a sugar high flash in the pan. Success is, you know, a lot of work that goes in behind it. And so there's definitely been those. And hey, how do you differentiate yourself? How do you tap into you know, what people are wanting to buy. So we're using our community to understand, hey, what people are looking for, what are the designs they want, what are some of the collaborations they want to see? And we really do tap into our network organically.

[Eric Dick]

And then I. Are you guys doing retail as well as D2C?

[Nick]

Yeah. So we're in, like, Golf Galaxy and PGA Superstore, along with about 1500 pro shops. So, like, Yodo Golf Course, you see the pro shop, you got to buy a sleeve of balls. They have apparel and stuff in there, so that's a big piece of the business. And same thing with overseas. In Asian markets like Korea and Indonesia. We've seen a lot of success in and. And really kind of having an omnichannel approach for the brand. I think retail people were, like, really bearish on retail. And Covid, it's gonna die. It's not coming back. People are buying online, but. But we saw, hey, there was a huge spike in E. Com. But then people who prepared for that, as if that's the norm, have really struggled because it's gone down in terms of people are wanting to go retail and wanting to see it in person or touch it, feel it or whatever. So I think we want to have an omnichannel approach to the business. And I'm. I'm a big fan of live selling. We're doing a lot more of that on platforms like Whatnot and even on our own channel through things called that we call Power Hour, where we're doing live selling shows. People can comment, ask, and so we're really big on that in the future.

[Eric Dick]

That's super cool. We did a mastermind this fall, and one of the guys there was. He has an underwear company, but he was. He was holding court on how effective live selling can be. And I've heard it's a theme. I've come. I've heard. Come up again and again.

[Nick]

Wild.

[Eric Dick]

Yeah, I actually haven't even heard of Whatnot. What is Whatnot?

[Nick]

Whatnot is crazy. It's like Twitch and ebay combined. So you go on there and you'll say, like, hey, I got this hat running this hat. Go ahead and bid. And people are bidding in the chat. It's 10 seconds long. All right, sold 35 bucks. Onto the next item. Okay, here's this. Pull over. Okay. Bid it up. Okay, sold 70 bucks. Next item. So people are. It's. It's like. It's a lot. It is a live stream. So you're live streaming. People are chatting, and then you're selling product and it's got like a bidding function and you bid it up until the auction's over. You go to the next item.

[Eric Dick]

Exciting.

[Nick]

It's pretty crazy. Yeah.

[Eric Dick]

And it's blowing up.

[Nick]

Yeah, it has blown up for sure. That's a separate platform and that's been great. We go live on there three times a week and it really kind of builds this community. People are seeing the same guys every week. They're chatting with them, they know them. That's been impactful and it's brought in this whole new community of buyers and, and, and people to the brand. But then even more so on our website, we've got like live options for customer service where there's a. Literally a lot. It's not just live chats. Like, hey, here's the camera, here's. Here's our team. We're here. If you got a question about a bag or a hat, show me this. You can show it to them right then and there and then building selling events around that.

[Eric Dick]

Nice. Oh, I just noticed you have freezer tarps.

[Nick]

Yeah, yeah, we do.

[Eric Dick]

Are you gonna, Are you coming up with a line of, of upper deckies?

[Nick]

We do, we have a couple products. We have the Zimbabwe head cover, Zimbabwe country club that we made, and then probably nuclear program head cover that, that are, that he's a collaborator on. So those have been really popular too.

[Eric Dick]

Just crazy nimble. I think that's what, like you mentioned the brands that like, come and go. And it's like you've done such a good mix of like, hitting topical things, topical influencers, but then having these anchor products, whether it's your head cover, whether it's the actual, like tech you've built in, like liquor Stick three, it's like you have, you sort of have a bit of everything.

[Nick]

Yeah, for sure. And I think you have to, I think you kind of have to do that as you grow and evolve and people want newness. It's crazy. You know, it's always kind of. You kind of always have to be a top of mind in some way. Coming out with a new product is easy. Easiest to be top of mind in my opinion. Hey, here's the new stuff. Go check it out. Here's the email blast. Check it out. Which is great. But you also have to have a reason for someone to come in and purchase that and be like, hey, I want to support pins and aces. Why am I going to support them? Why am I going to buy their hat or their head cover over this other brand? Okay, what's the reasoning behind that and having that resonate with your customers and really having A plus customer service going above and beyond those things are all really important.

[Eric Dick]

I don't know if this makes sense just because you're both apparel companies, but I'm friends with Bart from Dad Gang and I could really, I could see a collab because dads and golf go together like, you know, peanut butter and jelly. Yeah, I could, I could see a good dad pins. Dad Gang pins and Aces Gang collab.

[Nick]

I'm all for it. The collabs are great, especially in like, you know, similar but not completely overlapping markets. More than merit the pool. I always say, you know, I'm at the PGA show, which is a big golf show in January and you meet a lot of the other brands, your competitors. Oh, we don't like those guys. And I'm always, people are nervous to come up and talk to me or you see them out at an event or something and they're like, wow, you're like way cool. I thought this would be like a problem. Like, hey man, the pool is big enough for everybody to swim in. You know, there's a lot of opportunity for everybody in here. So. And it's definitely more tight knit and a lot of people know each other in the golf, in the golf space. So. So yeah, it'd be great.

[Eric Dick]

I'm just. So you hired your brother in law to be a bit more of the face, create a bit more of the content. I think maybe in the beginning you were doing a lot more of that. It's hard to conceive that you're going to find the right person for that job. I think for a lot of founders talk just a little bit about that process of, of finding that and, and how well it's done for you.

[Nick]

Yeah, you know, the, the problem and, and you know, I'm a dad, I have four kids. I'm getting old. I got grays coming in in this beard. I'm trying, I'm trying. No one likes it, but we're doing this like poor Scotty Scheffler video series and so I got to grow this out and look like Scotty Scheffler. So. But, but yeah, as the next. I think that's always the struggle with, with founders or faces of the brand of letting go and saying like, hey, who's behind you? Because you get stuck into worrying about these, these little things instead of, you know, you're working in the business instead of working on the business. And I think that's where a lot of Founders get stuck and so having a backup plan not just for the face of the company, but how can you resource and bring people up behind you so then you can continue to grow and evolve the business. And so yeah, finding the right person. If you look back, like I brought Liam in from college and first couple of videos, he was rough, like, yeah, this guy can't be on camera but you work on it and you continue to develop it. Now he's great. Now he's probably the best one we've got. And so you got to have to commit to that. It's tough to do. And you slowly introduce them and people get used to him and then now he's everywhere.

[Eric Dick]

And then with as many products, I guess like you mentioned in the beginning, drops, you know, sort of fake it, fake it till you make it a little bit with the drops.

[Nick]

A little bit.

[Eric Dick]

Are drops still a big part of the business?

[Nick]

Oh yeah, they're a massive part of the business for sure. We do, we try and have a drop like once a month, limited edition that gets people one to the site and they want to grab it for sure. And it's not huge money making, you know, for us to do like a limited drop, but it drives a lot of hype, a lot of shares on Instagram, you know, a lot of content to talk about. And, and then they come back and they're, they're buying the other things as well. You know, they're buying the Evergreen collection, they buy the head cover, but they also bought this. So it gets people really into the fold for sure. And, and drops, limited edition drops and collaborations have been definitely the most impactful piece of, of our business.

[Eric Dick]

And it always gives you such a legitimate reason to email your list, right? Like, hey, there's something new, right? Rather than hey, we're on sale or this or that. It's always like it's an event that this thing is coming out. So it's like so legit that you email them.

[Nick]

Yeah, for sure. And we even have. Now we take it a step further and with drops we'll do golf tournaments around a drop. So we have four golf tournaments this year. We have open house at our, at our HQ here in Colorado. There's like three or four hundred people that come to that and they want to be a part again of the community and get that drop and be a part of it. The only way to get it is to come here and do that. So those have been really, really well received.

[Eric Dick]

We had this event that we put on the fall. We had, I Talk about on the podcast all the time, but we had Brandon Hirojo from Montana Knife Co. Oh yeah. And they're such. And his, his drop thing is insane. He's, he's doing, they're doing two drops. Two or three drops a week.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Eric Dick]

And he has them planned out for two years so knows every action they need to take in regard to those drops for the next two years, basically. So it just aligns everyone.

[Nick]

I wish we were that organized.

[Eric Dick]

Yeah, well that's, that's what you're saying. You could do one drop a month. Like if you probably could do more, you probably, you know what I mean? Like with, as an engaged audience that you have and the, and the total blank canvas that you have to create not just knives, but like any different, all these different accoutrements within golf. How quick are you on turnarounds? Like with cultural moments or things that you want to like products that like, oh, something big's happened and you, you want to, you want to get that out there?

[Nick]

Yeah, pretty quickly for sure. Not like next day like a print on demand. I think barstool does it really well, you know, like Scotty Scheffler getting arrested and an hour later they have a pick his mug shot on a T shirt. Like, yeah, that's pretty quick. That's amazing. But for us in our industry, it's been helpful. Not so much in terms of like pop culture, but in the wholesale side of things. You know, your course has a golf tournament and it's like, shoot, we need something next month. How quickly can you make it? And we have a pretty fast turnaround time. We're the biggest, you know, from our vendors, one of the biggest customers of them. So they have dedicated lines where it's like, hey, if you need something quick, we can get it in two weeks. Made overseas, shipped and delivered in, in about two weeks for those like rush projects. And that's been, that's been helpful for sure.

[Eric Dick]

What are your goals with the brand for the next little while here? Maybe three think three year window kind of deal, like scale it up, continue or, or are you working on profitability? What's your focus?

[Nick]

I think so. I think we've been fortunate. It's a good question. And I think it's, it's a, it's something that every founder, CEO of their business, small business especially, needs to answer of. Hey, what is our vision mission for the company? For us, it's myself and my brother in law, we're the founders of the business and we still control the majority of the business. And so for us it was, you know, we were really successful with our last e Comm company. We had a very successful exit so we didn't need to pay ourselves. And so everything that we did in the business just went back into the business. We were able to scale and now it's a fun, you know, my, he's my brother in law, my other brother in law is in the business. We've had people who's work who've worked for us in other businesses for the past 10 years. They're really kind of a part of this culture and family. So number one, I think we'd like to create optionality. Whether we go for another exit or we continue to grow and scale the business. It's a fun lifestyle business with a lot of people we like and it's, it's hard to beat being in golf. I love playing golf. So having a golf company is a great excuse for my wife that I gotta go play golf. It's work, you know, research is a write off. Yeah, exactly. You gotta, you legitimately get a right, right our golf off in this. So. But yeah, this year is definitely scaling. I think every business finds inflection points. You know, for us, kind of doing roughly 25 million in revenue this year would be the goal. And you know, we started again with $6,000 for that first order of head covers and haven't taken a dime in the business of outside capital and just kind of rolled everything back in and it scaled us to this point. And I think this year it's like, hey, we'd like to hit that top line goal but we'd like to be more profitable than last year, continue to grow profitably. It's beyond just a hobby. And I think a lot of times, look, you go put your money in the market and make 5, 7%. So can you have a better return on that? I could just take 20 million, put in the market, make 7. Great. So can we go beyond that and have a legitimate business then? It creates optionality for us of whether we want to continue to grow and scale this business and continue to grow that top line while maintaining that that percentage of ebitda? Or do we want to sell the business and it just provides optionality for us?

[Eric Dick]

Who do you see as like a suitor to buy the business? Would it be one of the more established, bigger golf brands?

[Nick]

For sure. I definitely think it's strategic. You see it. With Callaway acquiring Travis Matthew a few years ago, Taylor May just acquired a small niche putter company. I Know, we're on the radar for some of those guys doing like order testing and tracking order numbers and how are they scaling? You know, you see those and we've definitely had those conversations. I think they're. Everyone has kind of their level of where they want to be involved and I think their level is probably 50 million in top line sales. Then it's like, okay, we can roll this in and really grow it. Anything smaller than that, not really of interest, but I think, who knows, I think a strategic of a bigger golf company would, would probably be the right buyer for the business.

[Eric Dick]

Are there. I don't, I don't know how hands on you are on this side of things, but are there any tools that you have either in your marketing stack or like SaaS, platform, e commerce SaaS platforms that you're really enamored with that you think are doing a great job?

[Nick]

Particle. Particle is great. Are you familiar?

[Eric Dick]

Neat.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Eric Dick]

Yeah. Particle sponsored the podcast. They're the ones that help you with like inventory. Like they help you understand how products are moving outside of your business.

[Nick]

Yeah. So like competitor data.

[Eric Dick]

Competitor data, that's right. Yeah.

[Nick]

So you could see like, okay, hey, we really want to sell a new bag, a new color. Okay. And I really love competitor XYZ sells this, this neon pink bag. Okay. I love it. They've got to be killing it. When you go to Particle and see how well that bag is selling and you could say, well, that's actually selling like they're just putting a lot of resources behind it and it doesn't sell well. So you can use that data and beyond the general scope things of, hey, what color trends are popular? Here's your top 10 competitors. They're selling pink, blue and yellow polos the most. And so your color palette should kind of match this and see what they're doing. It's cool. To also benchmark the opportunity of hey, we want to get into golf bags. Here are these three competitors. Well, they're selling $7 million a month worth of golf bags. That's a market we want to be in and we want to take some market share. So we definitely use that with new product development. If we're trying to get into a new space or kind of redesigning or redeveloping our current collection, but coming out in different colors or different patterns, what's selling well and we can get some insights onto that.

[Eric Dick]

I love that. I remember that they were explaining to me the business about how they, you know, at that time they were talking about they had part of their Data tools were like bots that would go on to competitor sites and like, load up carts with hundreds of items until they said, you don't. We don't have any more. And they would understand the. And I'm like, I bet, like, Pixels hate those companies because they just like add to cart. You know, they just be. Unless you're, unless you know their bots, they're going to mess up your, your data quite a bit.

[Nick]

Yeah, it really does suck when you look at like, your conversion rate and you're like, why is my conversion rate so why is it down? And then you look at like, how many added to carts there were, and you're like, wait a minute. And even the other night, a new particle was fishing our site because we had 1700 people checking out and we had, you know, 60 people on the site or whatever the numbers were. It was like that, that didn't add up. And there's never, you know, a time where we're gonna have 17 people at once in the cart and then they all abandoned. So it skews your numbers. But that's exactly what they're doing. They're going to all the competitors, hitting them, adding each sku into the, into the cart, saying, I want to add a thousand. Hey, we only have 660 available. Okay, now we know our baseline. We do the same thing tomorrow. And now we have 640. Okay. They sold 20 in the day. And so then it creates that data.

[Eric Dick]

Super neat. Are you the best golfer in your company?

[Nick]

Yeah. Biasely. I'd say yes. There is a guy who came on especially with the acquisition of Adele. There's a couple guys there who are pretty good. And then one of our new internal sales guys, he played Division 1 golf. I have not played actually with him, so I'm gonna still say yes until I actually play with him.

[Eric Dick]

That's the way to go for sure. And do you have, like, internal company golf tournaments?

[Nick]

Yeah, that's what I was saying to around drop. Well, four actual. You can go to our website, you can buy them, you can sign up for our golf tournaments. There's four of this year and those are a good time.

[Eric Dick]

What I just was, I'm aware of live and I, I, I. That whole, like, live drama that kind of came out. And now there's this new, like, arena golf thing where you're going to screen. What's that like? What do you think about that?

[Nick]

I don't know. The simulator thing. I know it's become more popular. I hate simulator golf. It's just like, it's not real. It's, it's like I don't like topgolf either. I don't like going and hitting a fake ball into a big circle. It's just not for me. But apparently, I don't know, I don't know the date on it, if is it doing well or is it not? I mean, it's definitely cool. Giant screen, real turf they're hitting off of. And then it all like goes to this one fake green. So it's, it's interesting for sure. There's definitely a lot of moves happening in, in the golf space right now.

[Eric Dick]

Yeah. And the more golfers, the more chance for them to wear your products.

[Nick]

Exactly. Yeah. That's what we want.

[Eric Dick]

Well, thanks for coming on the podcast today. If people want to follow your entrepreneurial journey, where do you recommend they do that?

[Nick]

So I'm like anti social, personally. I like to, you know, separate them. People have said I need to change that, but I'm pretty like, you know, lock and key outside of the business. But you'll definitely find me at Pins and Aces on everything at Pins and Aces, just spelled out with the, and on Instagram, tick tock, YouTube, Twitch, now all the, all the socials, Facebook, just at Pins and Aces.

[Eric Dick]

And if you had one message for entrepreneurs out there to leave them with on the podcast, what, what would it be from your, your, your. From your experience.

[Nick]

I mean it's, it's pretty cliche but you know, you just really have to, to stick with it. There's obviously going to be a lot of failures and up and downs with being entrepreneur. It's not as like I'm gonna go work for myself and I get to control my schedule. I work way more now than I ever have before. It's, and you know, of a corporate job. And then I think it's important too to know, you know, when you have a dead dog and you need to move on. You know, a lot of people I see try and push a product that is technically superior, technically successful, but is it commercially successful? And I think marrying those two is really important because a lot of people have a technical success. It doesn't mean you're going to have a commercial success. And you got to know when to kind of draw the line. But that doesn't mean give up. It's a fine, it's a gray area, you know, where, where do I go with this? So I think that's important to understand.

[Eric Dick]

Gotta say the beard looks great, by the way. Don't.

[Nick]

It's coming. It's only, like, a weekend, so it's really coming in. See me in, like, a month and you'll be like, wow, that really filled in.

[Eric Dick]

He is a poor man. Scotty Scheffler.

[Nick]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You'll see it on socials. It'll. It'll be coming in for sure.

[Eric Dick]

Cool, man. Well, this was a lot of fun. Thanks again.

[Nick]

Yeah, appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

[Eric Dick]

Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. If you're not a subscriber to our newsletter, you can do that right now AT direct to consumeralloneword.co. i'm Eric Dick, and this has been the D to C podcast. We'll see you next time.