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- [00:00]
A
One of the things that was kind of unique about Silk and Snow, and it was by accident, is that we grew organically. 2019 was kind of like the DTC apocalypse. A lot of our competitors at that time, they were acquiring customers at a more expensive pace than they were getting back from the acquisition. We learned a lot in that time frame and how to do things right and how to grow a sustainable and organic business. 2017, 2018. A lot of the digitally native businesses, they started with just one category and being very much focused on a digital channel. What all of us found over time is that we're actually just retailers and it's a multi channel approach. It's likely not one category that you can be successful in. It's an aggregate of a lot of categories.
- [00:51]
B
This episode is brought to you by Contentful Marketers. You know that feeling when your creative clicks, when that social post sends engagement through the roof, when your outside of the box campaign hits ROI positive, when a personalized homepage turns prospects into customers? It's utter marketing bliss. Contentful helps you create tailored omnichannel experiences without working overtime. No stress, no limits, only possibilities. Get the feels@contentful.com Albert I want to welcome you to the DTC podcast. I've been a longtime fan of what you built with silk and snow. I am an owner of actually two silken snow beds. My daughter has a queen and I've got a California king. Welcome to the DTC podcast. Awesome.
- [01:36]
A
Thanks for having me, Eric. I've always been a fan of the DTC podcast and I love hearing about the journey of other founders. So I'm excited to be here today.
- [01:46]
B
So mattresses kind of started this DTC revolution in a lot when you go back to, you know, Casper and the mattress wars back in the day. And so it kind of feels like Silken Snow is a bit of the second generation of the DTC mattress company. Can you maybe give me a little background on why you built Silk and Snow?
- [02:06]
A
Yeah, it was very much that. It's funny because not many people know this part about DTC history is that I would say when we started in 2017, we were a few years into the transition of the mattress category, going online and going full dtc and it was pretty ugly back then. Think there was like a count at one point of how many people or how many brands were out there that were DTC mattress brands and it was, it was upwards of the upper one hundreds and it was pretty competitive environment. We were late to the game and it was, it was slow in the early days when we were purely just a mattress brand. And I think it kind of taught us a lot of things about being a little bit different as a brand and really carving out your niche in the market.
- [02:55]
B
What were some of those things you kind of learned about how to tackle the category differently than some of the Giants before?
- [03:01]
A
Yeah. So I think because we were really, really late to the game, we didn't have like first mover advantage or that kind of disruptor moniker that a lot of the other brands had. You mentioned one of them like Casper. That was kind of one of the challenges we dealt with as a brand. We were probably the hundredth brand in the market. So the first couple years we actually didn't grow very, very quickly. And what that made us realize is that we really had to reorient the brand just to kind of stand for something. One aspect of our business that I found was really developing in the early days was the aesthetic of the brand. I think we did it a lot better in terms of the accessories we sold than a lot of other brands. But one of our origins too is that my co founder and I, we came from a deep retail background and we had a closeness to manufacturing. I would say we're like factory geeks where we loved visiting factories and just understanding the supply chain. And that's kind of how it started in our journey. We probably went across North America to meet a lot of different manufacturers. And one of the things we kind of learned in that journey was that a lot of the businesses that still exist in manufacturing mattresses in North America, they're typically family run, multi generational businesses. And these are the type of businesses that are typically more focused on quality and just obsess about the details, similar to what we do. And that kind of formed the DNA of our business. We started pivoting towards applying kind of those principles of being close to the manufacturer and working with multi generational family owned businesses and really started expanding into different categories like bedding, furniture and products that go right across the home and not just focus on a specialty category like mattresses. And I think that's kind of what gave us room to grow over time, is that we really tried to sell the entire space of a bedroom and also the entire home over time. And it made us very, very different as a brand, as our brand evolved over the years.
- [05:16]
B
More of a home homeware's brand than just specifically like a raw mattress company, right?
- [05:21]
A
Yeah. And I think that that made, I think even the purchasing journey for a lot of the customers, a lot More interesting. Like a lot of people consider buying a mattress, like very much like a grudge purchase where it's very functional in nature. You're. You're solving a pain point. But I think when you look at buying products for your home, like if you're looking at home decor or any type of home goods, it's usually more of an esthet or one that's more personalized. So we found that to be something that we could lean into a lot more than sticking to the typical approach of selling within the mattress category.
- [05:59]
B
And I want to dive into that more because your purchase experience is sort of the gamified nature of hitting different thresholds. And, you know, often when people are furnishing homes, they're not just thinking about a mattress. I like to use it the term grudge purchase, where it's just like, I know this is something I have to spend on. I'm going to spend, you know, so many hours for the rest of my life on this thing. So I might as well make sure, like I bite the bullet, buy something good now. But before we dive that, I want to go back into your background because I read a little bit that you're, you grew up in this, in sort of the, the garment world with your mom being a seamstress. Is that kind of what informed you, being a factory addict?
- [06:34]
A
Yeah, actually, I kind of flew past that question. But when we started our business, we were looking at a lot of different possibilities of what we would start. And like, personally, I kind of grew up in the 80s, so my mom worked in the garment industry when it was thriving in Toronto. And when we started looking at different models, there was a lot of things we could have done. But one of the ones we fell in love with was just the mattress industry. And it was kind of by accident because when we visited factories, we had to kind of understand the entire supply chain. So that included foam pours, people that made coil springs, but also the textile industry. So we found a pocket of a thriving textile industry that still existed within Toronto. And that really reminded me of the days of when the garment industry was thriving and was kind of a cool bit of history that still survived in Toronto. And when we saw it, we kind of fell in love with the concept of local manufacturing and still having access to heritage manufacturers that made really well built products.
- [07:45]
B
Can you talk a little bit about the supply chain? Like what goes into the making of a mattress? And is it, is it actually mostly a local supply chain that you built out?
- [07:52]
A
It is. It's obviously nothing that you would like. It's a much smaller scale than you would find in Asia. But I think the supply chain here, they have all the components to make 100% Canadian made product. So I think typically within the mattress category, you need fabric, you need foam, and you need coils. And all three are made locally in Toronto. But they also have quite a healthy supply chain across North America. And that's one of the things that I found. Because it's such a large product, it's been difficult for a lot of manufacturers to really diversify offshores because so much of it has to be close to the end assembler. But that's also kind of worked in our benefit because we've been able to start from those origins of making a domestic product. And it's really helped us to kind of navigate all the political movements that have happened over the years, especially around tariffs.
- [08:54]
B
So talk to me about the growth trajectory. What year did you start it?
- [08:57]
A
We started in 2017, and I would say it was a bit of a slow start. We were really just dipping our toe into starting the business because we started a Kickstarter program for about a month in, I believe it was March 2017. We sold a modest amount. It wasn't phenomenal, but it at least showed us that this was a viable model. And about four months later, we started launching the business of Silk and Snow fully.
- [09:27]
B
Okay. And so then that's the kind of heat of the mattress, of the D2C mattress. Worse that, I guess. Right. What was it like kind of coming to market and trying to get, you know, customer acquisition at scale at that time, I guess you had the benefit of pre iOS 14, you know, meta environment. But talk to me about bringing the product to market at that time and what that was like.
- [09:47]
A
Yeah, that was tough. Like I remember it was still like the early days of Google marketing, where there's a lot more. It was less algorithmic, so there was a lot more you could do to kind of personalize the approach of acquiring customers. But it was still a very expensive endeavor to acquire a mattress purchase. The typical AOV is about $1,000. And if you could imagine, like it's probably half of that at those days were spent on marketing. One of the things that was kind of unique about Silk and Snow, and it was by accident, is that we grew organically, so we didn't have the benefit of spending a whole lot of money and acquiring customers. And I think 20, like within the first two years of our business, I think 2019 was kind of like the DTC apocalypse, where a lot of businesses in our space were trying to ipo and they, they kind of realized that the economics of marketing a mattress was not exactly what people thought. So a lot of our competitors at that time, they were acquiring customers at a more expensive pace than they were getting back from the actual transaction of the acquisition. And, and that made it really difficult for us. But it also, we learned a lot in that timeframe and how to do things right and how to grow a sustainable and organic business.
- [11:12]
B
It's such a tempting category, I guess, because the AOB is so high, but I guess that gets negated when you're going against so many other high AOB competitors. And I guess that's probably what pushed you guys into this sort of like, broader category approach where you're moving away from the transactional purchase of a mattress towards the lifestyle that you can build with Silk and Snow's whole lineup of products. What was your first category that you went into outside of mattresses?
- [11:36]
A
You're right, Eric, because I find all of us, like, in the mattress category started in the same place of offering one product within the category and trying to drive growth through the high aova. Over time, what we realized was that the customer isn't coming back. It takes a very long time for them to need a mattress. And so part of our exercise was to kind of give a reason for customers to keep coming back. It also played into, you have to ultimately make it interesting and also allow the customer to have an affinity to the brand. And it's very tough to do with just the mattress category. So over time, we, a logical first step was we started building out our sleep accessories, so things like pillows, comforter, duvets, bed sheets. And we start growing all the adjacent categories that revolved around a mattress and, and gradually built out from that.
- [12:34]
B
Where did you come up with the brand? I was always curious where Silk and Snow came from.
- [12:39]
A
Yeah, I wish I could say something more creative, but we actually, at the time, it was, it was very difficult to see what our, our brand would grow. So we knew that we love textiles. We loved that we were building something that was of higher quality. And we wanted to have Silk be a part of the name because it lent itself so well to so many of those things. And we knew that we were going to start within Canada, so we wanted to call out our Canadian roots as well. And then outside of that, it was just tough to find a domain name at that time. So Silk and Snow kind of worked out. When we were doing the typical domain name search in making sure that all the social media handles existed as well.
- [13:25]
B
It's good. Snow's got the, the Canadian vibe, but it also has that like, restful vibe or something. Right. Like a fresh blanket of snow. Seems very calm and peaceful.
- [13:34]
A
I'm glad you think that way. I don't know if that was intentional, but that, that, that actually works. I agree with you.
- [13:39]
B
I think that's only because I live in Victoria and I don't have to deal with the reality of snow. How do you, how do you think about the decision cycle? You mentioned that this term bridge purchase first on. I'd never heard that. But how do you think of the sort of intention cycle or buying cycle around mattresses versus something like maybe a sofa, which you guys also do now, right?
- [13:58]
A
Yeah, I think with, with mattresses, it's very functional as a purchase. So usually the starting point is you're starting from a place of a problem. Like either your mattress is worn out or you have back pain or you're sleeping hot. So a lot of it, the purchase journey starts from a problem that you're trying to fix. And we found that that's always a very difficult marketing message to get across, is you're trying to address a problem. It's not as nice as some of the products that we've grown into where you're really just trying to improve the esthetic of your home, where you're trying to make your bedroom look like a Pinterest board. So we found that it just took place organically where we evolved our marketing message from trying to solve a functional problem into one in which it was more aspirational and inspirational and, and that lent itself well to a lot of the, the content that we were starting to create and some of the platforms that we, we chose to project our brand on.
- [15:04]
B
Do you find that most people are coming into the brand through the lens of the mattress and then kind of opening up into your other catalog, or are people equally coming from your other pieces now? And looking at mattresses, I find a.
- [15:17]
A
Lot of D2C businesses are going this way now. Like I think in the 2017, 2018, a lot of the digitally native businesses, they started with just one category and being very much focused on a digital channel. And then I think what all of us found over time is that we're actually just retailers and it's a multi channel approach. So it's likely not one category that you can be successful in. It's an aggregate of a lot of categories. So we are finding that we're getting Customers from different types of products, but we're also getting customers from different types of channels. Like, they're not just coming in digitally, they're also coming in through some of our retail partnerships. They're coming in through some of our stores. And I find that the more we grow as a business, the more we realize we're becoming a traditional retailer that just happens to be digitally native.
- [16:09]
B
And then you guys are investing heavily in your own retail presence in this year and beyond. Can you talk a little bit about that?
- [16:15]
A
Yeah, that's been really fun. It's one of the aspects that we've always talked about where I think we've succeeded as a digitally native business in spite of just being digitally native. Like, our products are very tactile. A lot of the times we deal with the customer, even digitally, usually there's a lot of questions around what the product feels like or what the product, how sturdy the product is. And we always knew that the path for us was to grow a bricks and mortar channel. It was just a matter of how much that would be a part of the mix. We opened our first store in 2023, so that was about three years ago. And we ran. We felt it was a bit of a test and kind of like a low risk entry into bricks and mortar. That, that went incredibly well. Our first store was in Ottawa and that's still one of our best performing stores today. In the last year, we've kind of gone through this aggressive path of opening more bricks and mortars. We just opened up our Summerhill location in Toronto as of this weekend. And so it's been our 10th store. So. So we've opened about nine stores in the last year and that's been our. Our tenth store today.
- [17:28]
B
What's your biggest learning about moving that aggressively into your own retail?
- [17:33]
A
It's. It's definitely tougher to scale operationally. Like with digital, you could pivot, you could, you could change marketing messages or pricing on the fly. But with bricks and mortar, it's really tough. Like we. We've found that there's a. You've got to get the underlying infrastructure right first. Everything from kind of distribution to warehousing to even just how you manage the experience within the store, it's easy enough to find. It's not easy enough, but it's easier to find real estate. But to open up at a pace where your experience is in keeping with all the other stores that you have, and also the online experience is very, very tough.
- [18:12]
B
Just a lot of planning goes into it as to where where you can support these. Like, how strategic are you about where each store goes?
- [18:20]
A
We're pretty strategic in that we. I think what we have the benefit of is that like our. Because we have digitally native routes, everything is data driven. We know exactly where our customer is coming from, and we often let online dictate where our market is and what sells in those markets and what works. And so we've definitely had the benefit of data and opening up markets and. And when you layer that in with just real estate opportunities as they come up, it becomes a much more easier exercise. We've been with other retailers where the starting point was bricks and mortar, and then you don't have the benefit of. Of the amount of data that we have. And I found that that's, that's helped a lot in our journey to grow bricks and mortar.
- [19:08]
B
Where are you guys in your journey to. Because obviously you've got a huge presence in Canada. I assume you're selling in the US as well. What's. What's that mix like right now? And how much more of a market do you think you have in the.
- [19:18]
A
US Both markets have been good, but I would say it's a very different journey. We typically like to say we're about three to five years behind within the US Market than we are in Canada. It's still a very sizable portion of our business, but it's just such a bigger market than what we have in Canada. We've been able to grow our brand in Canada a lot faster, and a lot of it has to do with just competition and closeness to our supply chain because it started in Canada, but. But I think it just takes a lot more investment and time to build a brand in the US and we have been taking our time. We've definitely had a much more mature customer base within Canada where we've been able to test the market and really open up on bricks and mortar. And I think when we look at the US we're happy with where we are, but we would say that we're probably three years behind from where the Canadian side is.
- [20:17]
B
Brand building is always such an interesting exercise. I come from a performance marketing agency where at times the performance world has felt at odds with the branding world. And how do you think of brand building, maybe as you've done it in Canada? Is it just really a combination? I know bricks and mortar must obviously have a big impact on people's perception of the brand. Obviously just getting people experienced with the brand, getting more and more of your different kinds of pieces in people's Homes helps establish that brand. Anything else, like, about how you think about brand building for a brand like Silk and so in Canada.
- [20:51]
A
Yeah, I don't know if it's a fair question, because I think I'm more like you in that I come from performance marketing roots as well. Like, I, I like numbers and, and probably I lean on the rest of the team for the creative aspects a little bit more and brand building. But one of the unique things about Silk and Snow is because we started in the mattress category, we've been highly focused on just getting that lower funnel. Right. One thing that we talk about a lot is that once we get a customer into the funnel, we've found that our customers are loyal. We typically have a very high conversion rate and a repeat rate, especially as it relates to our category. And so we kind of went through this journey where we went bottom up, where we focused on. Once we got the traffic to come to our website, it was a much easier exercise to get them to convert. But then we kind of went through the phase of trying to get traffic into the website and, and that is. Is really a journey of building a brand and brand awareness. And so I would say that, like, in the Canadian side, we've been a little bit quicker at that in building a brand awareness, but I found that, that it's always better to build from the bottom funnel up. And that's kind of been our approach to growing the Canadian market.
- [22:13]
B
At least it definitely worked for me. You know, I've owned. Owned two, two beds and I got bedside tables, I got a couple lamps, I've got my bed linens. And it is like, once you're in that environment, I think the website does such a good job of both, like, exposing you to all the different kinds of products, but also, like, not necessarily gamifying, but building it in. Building these other products into the purchase process in a, you know, in a dynamic way where you're. You're getting your bedding kind of bundled in for free. Can you talk a little bit about your buddling strategy on the website and how that's worked out?
- [22:45]
A
Yeah, but bundling is quirky as it relates to the mattress industry. It's like one of those necessary evils that we, we have to deal with because I, I think mattresses are. Are really a special. What I think the industry considers like a specialty retailer. A lot of, A lot of the people, the competitors we compete with on the mattress side, they only sell mattresses, so they've had the ability to throw in a lot of value in other products as an offering rather than compete on price, which has worked for them. For us, we like to sell everything and then really help our customers really round out their home. And so it's kind of been a mixed bag for us in terms of to sell a mattress, the customers expect bundling, but at the same time, we've built our entire business on giving our customers optionality to build out their home. And they like mixing and matching products that we have, like other bedding or sleep accessories or furniture. So we've used it in very specific ways. But we also like just giving our customers the ability to pick what they want. And so it's kind of being a mixed bag.
- [23:55]
B
And then one of the things that customers can pick based on my ChatGPT notes here, so you can correct me if it's wrong, basically replacing bundles with it like a tree printing planting initiative via Veritree. And according to ChatGPT, it saved $1.3 million and planted 30,000 trees. Is that, is that true, first of all?
- [24:11]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's definitely true. It's actually been a fun little journey. Like we, I kind of mentioned it was like a necessary evil. So what we found is that giving bundles is sometimes giving a consumer a lack of choice and something that they might not want. So we found that to be a little bit off brand. We also found that a lot of our customers who focus a lot more on sustainability and thoughtfulness in what we offer, they don't want the offering of getting more, they just want something thoughtful and optionality. So we thought it was really on brand to partner with another organization that was dealing with a problem that was very relevant for the last few years, which is tree planting. We actually our first program was to plant trees out in Williams Lake, bc, which is probably close to your area. And it's really resonated with our customers and we were really surprised that a lot of customers, they were willing to give up their free products in replacement of just getting something that was a little bit more socially and conscious and mission driven.
- [25:28]
B
Did you find that had any impact on long term AOV or customer behavior or loyalty offering something like that?
- [25:33]
A
Yeah, it's been nice because I think it was something very unique that we were doing as a brand that was different from every other retailer that was in our space. But when you kind of slow down the purchase cycle and not try to do everything all at once in terms of a product offering, it does give the customer a reason to come back. So maybe to answer your question, it doesn't help with the immediate AOV for the customer, but it does help with the long term relationship with the customer and having them come back and, and have a reason to come back.
- [26:07]
B
And the brand. Yeah, just, just knowing that they, they've had this good interaction through the brand, this thoughtful interaction. I know every time I'm searching for anything from my home and Silken Snow comes up. It's, it is a, you know, I'm noticing it more obviously because I'm a customer, but it definitely, definitely works. Can you talk a little bit about your back? You mentioned you're a performance marketer long term. Can you mention a little bit of, talk a little bit about your background in digital marketing and how that's kind of informed how you built this company?
- [26:34]
A
Yeah, so maybe I should clarify that that was a bit overstated because my background is I actually studied computer engineering. So I did come from a technical background with a mix of retail experience. But I wouldn't say I was on the creative side. So when we started our journey at Silk and Snow, I immediately gravitated towards numbers and data and I think it lent itself well to performance marketing. So I think in the early days of the business that was kind of the area that I focused on. So we were deep into kind of the Google world before a lot of it was AI or algorithm driven and then we learned to market through content a little bit later because I think it was just simply the way the founding team was built. But yeah, that would be the starting point of me learning performance marketing.
- [27:25]
B
How do you think about marketing? Obviously these are a big organization now, obviously at this point. How do you think about marketing now? Especially this is the week of Black Friday. I'm super impressed you're taking this call. How do you guys think about your marketing mix right now when it comes to you guys? Still very Google heavy. A lot of social media as well.
- [27:46]
A
Oh, we've definitely diversified our media mix. I think at least the 2017 version of Google when we started was very much high intent, low funnel. Our starting point was that it was a disproportionate amount of Google. But over time we've had to really diversify into all sorts of channels and platforms and even we found ourselves leaning in more towards traditional media like out of home and connected tv. And I think it's, it's part of the journey of growing up as a brand is that once you've kind of mastered or figured out the low funnel portion of the marketing funnel, a lot of it is content driven and just being where, where the customer is even before the demand or the necessity of your brand comes. And so over the years, we've shifted a lot of our media spend to awareness marketing and a lot of traditional media and a lot of that has had to be more creative and a lot more content driven.
- [28:53]
B
I haven't seen, I haven't seen your top of funnel stuff and I'm always interested because I come from this performance marketing world and all of the platforms will take all of your money. If you're focused on bottom of funnel, they will spam that bottom of funnel and your roas will look good in the platform, but you may not be bringing enough new eyeballs. So you mentioned a bunch of different things there. Can you maybe give me either a campaign or a traffic one of these, one of one of these platforms or a specific campaign that you felt was really effective at driving top of funnel actual awareness into the silk and stow world?
- [29:29]
A
I would say like, even so, typically on a lot of the traditional platforms like Meta, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, there's an immediacy of the messaging that we've had to focus on. And it could be FOMO messaging or it could be sale messaging or things that would cause you to want to convert or perform a particular action immediately. We've tried to over time move away from that because I think it's good for performance marketing but terrible for brand. And so maybe a better example is just maybe the shift in terms of content and messaging, like even projecting social causes and what our brand stands for. Like you mentioned earlier, like the program we've been running to plant trees as a core part of our messaging. Those things don't normally play out in the immediate term for oaz and, and you don't see the effects of it, but you do see it over time. And, and I find that what we've had to learn is to kind of be patient to, to, to kind of look at our, our marketing funnel over a longer period of time and kind of look away from the traditional things we, we look at like roas by platform because they all, they always lean towards certain types of messaging, but not towards brand building.
- [30:53]
B
I saw a good tweet the other day about that that was just like if you think that having a high roas in platform is, is a flex, then you're, you're lost because really it's like high volume, low roas is what you want to see and then you want to have all your other channels dialed to, you know, to be, you know, rather than just grabbing the Attribution they. You want them working together like a symphony and you, and you have to be. The more you're willing to take a low on platform. ROAS means maybe more health in the long term of your business if you're thinking about it. Right?
- [31:24]
A
Yeah, yeah. I remember like early days of our marketing team, it was tough for us to look away because every time we ran an awareness campaign you could never justify it through the roas. And it was probably, that was probably one of the turning points of our business was when we finally shut off all the ROAS data and just started having conviction as to this is the right path. You got to build a brand that stands for something and I think that's when long term brand building happens. But yeah, you're absolutely right. It's, it's, it's one of those things you do early in the journey, but you can't rely on that forever.
- [32:00]
B
And then leaning on out of home and streaming. Did you have a strong retail presence like your own retail stores and being in, you know, wholesale before you dove more heavily into out of home and retail, or did you have that supporting your D2C business?
- [32:17]
A
We, we've been selective with the partnerships that we've had on the retail side because our origins were direct to consumer. We've always been dealing with trying to just find distribution at the right places. I, I think we've been a little bit different than a lot of people in our space where we've avoided a lot of marketplaces or we've avoided discount retailers to partner with. So we've in our journey built out relationships with more specialty retailers that kind of more aligned to brand. But it hasn't been a huge, huge part of our business. We've been really selective with that. But I also think that we've always had a view to kind of maintaining a directness with our consumer and being a direct to consumer brand. So we've always had the long view of we had to build out our own stores over time.
- [33:09]
B
And then Black Friday, Cyber Monday later this week. What. What do you got going on for that? What do you. Do you have. Are. Is. Is mattress purchasing like the super bowl in Black Friday, Cyber Monday or is it.
- [33:20]
A
Oh yeah, yeah. I think it's superflu for almost all DTCs. But yeah, it's incredible. Like I, I remember when we started this business, I, I couldn't believe the amount of people that were buying mattresses on Black Friday. I, I would have thought that would be the last category you worry about. But but yeah, it's huge for us. And I think it's because it's such a considered purchase that people have time to think about it and wait. And it's not something you need immediately. But I'm certain right now, like the funnel's building and people are making their lists and they're going to make their decision on Black Friday. So that's typically like a really big day for us.
- [33:57]
B
And then how do you handle discounting?
- [34:00]
A
Because our discount journey of consideration for our customers takes weeks rather than days. We try to give more time to our customers and communicate our Black Friday promos a little bit earlier. I think it's even more important for big ticket purchases like sofas or furniture products and mattresses. So we try not to have flash sales or things that that only appear for a few days and then we try to have an extended period. But I find a lot of retailers moving in that direction anyways.
- [34:37]
B
I think one of the most interesting things about a mattress purchases is when it comes to your home in a seemingly impossibly small box weighs so much more than you think it should. And then it's this whole experience, I think when we buy one of these mattresses. What's been maybe the most challenging aspect of scaling out your fulfillment and your returns across North America?
- [35:00]
A
I would say that even on the fulfillment side, we've tried to stick to that model of fitting everything into a box. It's been pretty crazy what we've been trying to fit into a box. So the latest is our sofa, but we've tried to apply that across all products and it works well on the way out to the customer, but it doesn't work as well sometimes coming back. But yeah, it's been an issue. But I found over time as you get scale and the distribution grows, then also our distribution network grows. So we have been able to be more sensible with our returns. I'd like to think we do a lot better job of taking back product when for whatever reason it doesn't work out for the customer. Then marketplaces like Amazon or Walmart or what they do with products when they return. Over time we've been able to build out our partnerships with with charities that could make use of the products are given a second life. We've also gotten better at just taking back product that is resellable. Certain goods are especially hard goods. So yeah, it's been a real journey, but I think that kind of stuff, it was really hard when you started, but over time it just gets easier and easier.
- [36:15]
B
And then what Metrics as CEO are you tracking most closely today at the size of your company and how's that evolved since your early DTC days?
- [36:24]
A
That definitely not roas anymore. But it's hard not to look. But I do find what we look at quite a bit is just the repeatability of the customer. I think early days you're just fighting for survival like any other startup would. So you're constantly looking at how to acquire customer as cheaply as possible. But for us, the customers, like our customers are now coming back and they're growing up. It's been eight years in the business and they're coming back for different reasons and you're starting to see that journey. So what we've been focused on a lot is just seeing what the customer does on their second or third purchase with us or more. And that's been really, really interesting for us.
- [37:13]
B
And I imagine the SOPA has been a big part of that because it's like a new. It's that you have all these other products, but you probably mattresses are Your flagship, whereas SOPAs are another flagship in a way. Right. They're not accoutrement. They're this whole other destination thing that people are coming to you guys for. How has the. The SOPA launch happened around April or this year? Is that right?
- [37:31]
A
Yeah, I think it was summertime this year. I should know this, but I think it's. I think it was the summertime in June, but yeah, it was very, very recent. And yeah, each product launch has been really, really interesting because I find as we continue to launch more products, it's gotten easier. And what we found is that there is an affinity with our customers and just buying silk and snow products. So it's less about needing a sofa and more about we've launched something new again and the customers just want to keep seeing that. That's been really, really different. It's taken a while for us to get there, but it's been fun because it just allows the team, especially the product team, to be a lot more creative and what they can dream up of next for Silken Snow.
- [38:13]
B
Speaking of what's next for Silken Snow, do you have any resolutions that you've made from what you've learned in 2025 about how you want to do things in 2026?
- [38:23]
A
Oh, that's a good question. I don't know. I'm still in Black Friday mode and then shortly after this, Boxing Day mode.
- [38:29]
B
But a Canadian specialty is boxing data. I can't believe Americans don't have more Boxing. Is it starting to break into. It was like, made for America.
- [38:39]
A
Yeah. Yeah, I think maybe one. One thing in our journey, like, especially with the stores, like, it's been more and more remote as we open up stores, so the people element has been really, really different. Like, we're. We're very used to growing as a small team, and then as we grow, we're still all in one place, but we're definitely, as a team, a lot more split up these days. And so maybe New Year's resolution, like, not so much resolution, but one thing we value a lot is just people and culture on our team. And how do you maintain that as you grow, especially if you're in different geographies. So that's probably one of the focuses that we've really thought about as we continue to expand out our bricks and mortars and looking into 2026.
- [39:28]
B
I'm just looking. You do have a store in Vancouver. How's that one going?
- [39:31]
A
Oh, it's fantastic. It's. I. I actually, it's. It's so far my favorite store. So it's. We. We opened that last week in the Granville neighborhood, which is kind of like Furniture Row, if you're. You're looking for furniture in Vancouver. And it's. It's been an interesting area because we've been trying to open that store up for the last two years. So it's been really heavily anticipated by a lot of our customers. But even the neighborhood as a whole, like, we. When we opened it last week, it's. It was fun to watch, like, the community come out and support us. A lot of them are. Are people that live in that area, and there's been an equal mix of people that have traveled really far just to. To come see us in a bricks and mortar form. So Vancouver's been a good market for us, but it's also been very uniquely one of the. Our favorite stores in terms of. Of where we've always wanted to be.
- [40:25]
B
And then we could not just earlier, I guess, but congrats on the exit you guys exited to. Sleep Canada. Sleep Country Canada. I'm thinking of the jingle, of course. Why would you buy a patch anywhere else? Talk a little bit about maybe how that's gone. And then I think it's probably been one of those acquisitions that's been very successful for both parties. Has it. Has it been, like, has it affected the culture at all, being acquired?
- [40:45]
A
No, I think it's been really successful. And I think part of that is because our expectations were very much aligned and our Interests were very much aligned when we decided to partner together. We've formalized kind of the partnership three years ago. And one of the things we talked about a lot was being experts in our own kind of domain. So one thing that we did incredibly well at Silk and Snow was growing out everything that was not mattress related. So we really focused on growing out the bedding category and the furniture category. And we grew digitally native. And one thing that we really, really needed to help on was just growing our bricks and mortar channel. And that was one thing that Sleep country was incredibly good at. And I think that's when the partnership is best, is when you have different strengths and you're very different in the right ways. And so it's been a really good partnership. Obviously, like, there's always topics that come up, like the differences in culture, maybe the differences in the DNA of the businesses that were built. But outside of those differences, we've been able to operate very independently and we've been encouraged to kind of grow within our own own path. And it's been a really healthy relationship. We've learned a lot on both sides, I would say. And yeah, this is the third year and it's probably going faster than planned. We're on our 10th store, which we've gotten a significant amount of help with the Sleep country family. So it's been really rewarding as a journey.
- [42:30]
B
Are you going to get a jingle or are we post jingle? Our brands not coming up with fun jingles anymore.
- [42:36]
A
This is where culture is very different. I think Sleep country loves their jingles radio. And it's interesting because as, as marketers, you know, we, we haven't run that. Sleep country hasn't run that jingle for maybe seven or eight years now, but everyone still remembers it. So when you think about awareness, like that's, that's like the ultimate awareness play. But I don't know, being different in different areas. We have never run a successful radio campaign. So, okay, we're, we're, we're nervous to get back into it. So no jingle for us yet.
- [43:06]
B
And you have to be careful because you want to be a lifestyle brand, right? You don't want to be a mattress warehouse or, you know, you want to be something are. People are very happy to have all around. But I don't know, I just, I still think there's room for a tingle. So that's, that's my advice.
- [43:20]
A
If you come up with one, shoot it my way. I'll consider.
- [43:23]
B
Okay, well, I'll be down soon. Oh, this afternoon. Nice. AI Jingle for you. Albert, thanks for coming on the podcast today. This was really cool. If people want to follow your entrepreneurial journey, do they. Do you recommend they Follow you on LinkedIn? Are you active on any of these platforms?
- [43:37]
A
Yeah, I. You know what? I. I'm terrible at that kind of stuff, but I would say my most active social profile would be on LinkedIn. But if anyone goes and shortly after this podcast, they'll notice that I haven't posted in like a year. But I do, I do respond and connect with people on LinkedIn quite a bit, but it might not appear like that outwardly.
- [43:56]
B
Nice. Well, again, thanks again. And I will continue having great restful sleeps on my hybrid silicon snow mattress. And if you're looking for a mattress out there, people, you've got to take a look at silicon snow. I went with the silicon one because I was. I was really in a. I was in the, like, trying to avoid microplastics kind of area. I know silicon, I think, still has microplastics, but. But I was also real. What really got me was the cool sleeping, because I'm a hot sleeper and I find the bed is an extremely cool sleeping bed, which I really appreciate is. Is that a big angle in. In the marketing?
- [44:28]
A
It is. Like, I, I think our. Our organic mattress is one of the only ones that you can find within Canada. It's a little bit more popular in the U.S. but a lot of customers look to us for more sustainable options when it comes to sleep. And so it's been a very unique offering that is really connected with our brand. So we're really proud of it. And I think a lot of customers love it, even its cooling features, but outside of that, also just what it stands for.
- [45:01]
B
Nice. Well, I hope some people in the audience buy a bed or some other of your great products. Thanks again, Albert. This was awesome.
- [45:08]
A
Yeah, thanks for having me on the show.
- [45:09]
B
Eric, Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. If you're not a subscriber to our newsletter, you can do that right now @directtoconsumeralloneword.co. i'm Eric Dick, and this has been the DTC podcast. We'll see you next time.