B (2:46)

Yeah, the Head of Socials.

A (2:47)

Head of Socials. I should have known that. Nice and simple. And I've been having these conversations with you for around six years. And Meta is this ever changing landscape and we are here talking about some of the changes that have kind of set in over just the last few months around AI. AI. And it's specifically around attribution. Let's start it off there. What is going on with attribution on Meta these days?

B (3:12)

Yeah, I mean, a lot's going on. Some big changes in the last two months, essentially where Meta has introduced this new feature called incremental attribution. What this is is meta starting to adjust how they count attribution for ads. Historically, someone's liked to post, they buy, a few days later, Meta takes attribution. Someone sees an ad, they don't even engage with it, they buy, a few days later, Meta takes attribution, as does every platform. Right. But Meta has realized that pretty much everyone is seeing the need for third party reporting. Let's unlock the true value of every ad that we have. Meta wants people using Meta, so they've shifted how they attribute ads to focus strictly on click, click actions. And ultimately this is a good thing for advertisers. You know, we hear from 80% of our incoming clients, like, oh, I don't trust Meta. Meta's ads over attribute, this is them sort of combating that with more meaningful attribution. It's acknowledging that measurement has become harder. Meta's unleashing some new tools to help close that loop, which, yeah, is great.

A (4:26)

It's a real mature move from an ad platform. I've been part of ad platforms for decades and they're almost always trying to claim more credit, not actually identify. It's like a, it, it takes it from a game of credit to a game of, of truth in a way or attribute of like really understanding. And, and so you're saying that they're only going to count something towards someone's conversion if they've clicked on it.

B (4:47)

Yeah, that's, that's kind of the, the general change. That's the change to their standard attribution. Now you can still view view purchases, but that theoretically should be going away Click conversions historically have counted people liking a post or clicking on the video to watch it. Now it's like clicking to website essentially only counts much more intense correlation of an ad versus the actual causation of an ad. And now there's this new column that you can add called incremental Attribution. And those specific ones are purchases that wouldn't have happened without the click on the meta ad. So it's even taken it one step further where now you can say, hey, I have a hundred conversions in the last day. 70 of them are incremental. Those are the ones that wouldn't have happened. And they do this by having a holdout audience, essentially holdout groups where they show them ghost ads. So they don't actually see the ads, but meta's tracking them as if they did see the ad and they're saying, hey, would these people have bought anyways? So people, you know, okay, we sent our ghost ads to 100 people, 30 of them still purchased even though they didn't see a physical ad. So they know, hey, 70% of this brand's ads in this campaign are incremental. The other 70% are because of our ad.

A (6:15)

Interesting.

B (6:16)

So this is like super powerful as a agency or anyone who's really running the ads because it's just giving you that extra insight and you're not needing to unlock this full puzzle. You're still going to use like we're still using other third party reporting to fact check it to give us more insight across all channels, not just meta specific. How does this, you know, funnel play? But that's, that's a big shift that a lot of agencies or brands are saying, hey, our meta roas has dropped. But then you look at the full picture and it hasn't.

A (6:49)

So yeah, it answers the oldest question about marketing that we've talked about on the podcast a lot, which is I've got 50% of my budget works and 50% doesn't and I don't know what's what. And so it seems. So how much budget do you have to run to get a proper holdout test and how long, how long does that take? Because I know people have been, you know, operating manual holdout tests to, to, you know, prove things are not prove them for their brand for, for years. How does it get built into a campaign?

B (7:14)

Now it's a good question and I don't have like the full answer, but it happens automatically in the back. So you're not, you're not choosing holdouts or anything like that. Meta's just doing it. It's not optional. You can still see you know again your, your full purchases which is now less because it's only like the meaningful click. But then you can add this other column where meta is is showing the holdout or the incremental and I think you know, for it to become more and more accurate. It does take a couple weeks like at the. If you just launch a brand new account the first week that incremental is going to be probably not a hundred percent accurate. They're still running holdout tests and I don't know if meta will ever release how they're specifically doing it, the actual like algorithm behind it. But just like an ad goes into learning phase, that incremental conversion is going to be more and more accurate as it gets data and settles in and

A (8:12)

then what's going around with what's going on with conversion windows at this point Because I remember many years, it was four years ago where like we were, you know, there are times where you know, optimizing towards the one day click really helped you focus on the bottom part of the funnel. Really helped you knock some things loose. Do you even have access to control your attribution window at this point?

B (8:29)

You do, yeah. So you still have all those options at the moment. It's just that the. You have 1 day, 7 day, 28 day and then you have 1 day view. It's just that that default of the 7 day click again is now not counting certain actions it used to it count. So you can still play around with these attribution settings to unlock a story for sure. But the incremental attribution is the new one in that same list where you're selecting them and you can view those independently of the other ones. And you can also optimize to incremental attribution. So you can now tell your ad sets this is what I care about Net new customers or people that you know aren't just going to buy otherwise. I want these ads to optimize to everyone that is going to be incremental. So it's not just a reporting feature, it's also an optimization feature.

A (9:27)

Very cool. And we're at this point experimenting this or with this setting or we've moved a lot of campaigns to it where

B (9:33)

we are shifting quite a few campaigns to it and it has been working. I'd say like 40, 50% of our our clients now are kind of optimizing to incremental hasn't worked in every case. And just like anything, there's always Going to be a big story around why that would be. Maybe it's a brand with a huge following. Maybe you're looking for second or third touch purchases anyways and you don't care about the whole first touch thing. But the audits coming in, like a lot of people aren't even aware of this feature because it just got lost in the mix of, you know, Meta's releases.

A (10:08)

Yeah, but it's a really important one. And what you're finding then when you do triangulate against with an MTA or with, with Triple Whale or something, you are finding that the, that when the revenue isn't, it's just being attributed differently. It's not going down when the roas on Meta goes down in most cases.

B (10:27)

Yeah, exactly. We're finding that the incremental conversions on Meta align a lot more closely with what you would see on like Triple Whale. Meaning that you know, this is. These are true conversions attributed to Meta and Triple Whale's trying to do the same thing. Right. Like the weight. Weight each purchase across each channel where it actually happened.

A (10:48)

Yeah. It behooves you to get your signals right. And this. We were just talking, I was just chatting with my co founder about the ads for D2C. We've just went been through this exercise actually not for D2C, for our agency, community business. We went through this exercise where we were feeding it kind of the wrong information. We were giving it the seed audience as people who'd signed up for agency. But the problem is like 80% of people aren't qualified for agency who sign up. And so we were like mistakenly just giving it this whole list of leads where 80% of them weren't the right people. And just by switching it to this very, you know, using the server to server, switching it to this like offline action where we've approved someone to be okay, this is going to be a good fit for agency. It just again, that's very, that's 101. Like just making sure you're, you've got your pixel on the right action. But it's amazing how profound it difference it made in the weeks before that change, in the weeks after that change. So I can imagine by using these attribution models, this better incremental attribution model, you're just going to be feeding it more real data because people clicking or liking or commenting on an ad are not the same intent level at all in the same category of intent. Probably as someone who's, who's going to your website clicking through on one of your value propositions or whatever. So hopefully by feeding it higher quality signal you get higher quality results in the long run.

B (12:05)

Yeah, 100%. Feeding it the right like signals like you said, and then also ensuring your creative is aligned to the user intent of those people. That's really the other key. Like Meta's ranking engineering agent REA essentially has like doubled the model accuracy, meaning their AI is like two times better at predicting who's going to buy now versus what it was two years ago, which is a huge improvement. So it really relies on like are our ads, our creative, our hooks, the first three seconds of our video speaking to those people? If yes, Meta is going to go find the right people because it's like these are the people interacting. Let's take signals from those hundred people, let's find more of them, boom, boom, boom. And it's like a self learning system and if you're feeding it incorrect data, it's going to take longer for the engineering agent to like get there essentially.

A (13:01)

Second topic we have today is agentic ads, the rollout of Meta's AI business agents. Tell me about that.

B (13:08)

Yeah, yeah, Again this is really new. We're getting like the monthly updates from our agency Advantage partnership. You know, so we, we do typically get kind of get the info ahead of time, a lot of. And so we've been testing this. It's not in every account yet, but you should start to see it popping up. Essentially what this is is moving to autonomous agents that talk, troubleshoot and build right on the ads. So these are the agentic ads customer facing. You can go in, you can customize it, feed it data, make it learn, but it's essentially like a business assistant and you're going to start seeing these pop up on ad units where you know, hey, do you have a question about this product? Hey, we think this is the perfect fit and here's why. And it's just going to be doing this on top of your actual, you know, ad unit that you're delivering. These ads don't just click to site, but they click to an agent chat where AI will handle the whole funnel, give you the FAQs, sizing objections. Of course it's extracting this data from your funnel, your website, right? Keeping people on Facebook, getting them what they need, educating them, and then when they're clicking to site, they're ready to convert. So it's just the next evolution of ads. They're called AI business agents and you can go into the ad level and essentially flick them on. You'll see it at like the ad level and then there's also a menu in the ads manager where you can start to customize it, make sure it's set up properly, you know, all these things and starting to see that roll out.

A (14:47)

Does it work or is it just putting speed bumps on the Runway as they say? If you're just putting another step between getting them to your landing page. Is that a good thing?

B (14:54)

Yeah, I mean I think it will be. I think again it's only been out a few weeks so I don't have like full confidence in saying hey, we're seeing x percent upticks by running these, but definitely need to be taking advantage of these things and testing them. And hey, now with incremental conversions we could have two campaigns, you know, one with the, the agentic AI agents and one without. Let's see what the incremental is on both of them. You know, is it working or is it just converting people that are already aware of who we are? Maybe just had a few extra questions. Hey, maybe they would have found those answers anyways on the website. The idea of it makes sense to me for sure as people get more comfortable interacting with AI and just getting them that info up front. One other thing is like the QA of this, we haven't, it seems okay from what we're seeing. But if that agentic ad is feeding someone the wrong size or faq, how do you manage that as a brand? Right, so that's where a lot of the learning is going to come from. But it also will do things like iterate on your hooks. It'll iterate and change the questions it's asking people based on what's working so much like an ad. And these AI enhancements have already been released. Meta AI business is also going to keep enhancing itself and, and self learning from itself.

A (16:17)

So it spits you out on the, on the Shopify page. Like it doesn't actually handle the checkout at this point.

B (16:22)

Doesn't handle the checkout but it, it basically starts a chat like right in, right in meta. And then you know, there's the option to click to site. You can, I think you can like start the checkout but ultimately it will redirect you to, to the site for the, the payment and everything.

A (16:38)

Yeah, I can imagine the conversion rate at that point after you've been, you know, properly gaslit by AI as it likes to do. I imagine the conversion rate is quite high at that point when you do get people there.

B (16:48)

Yeah, 100%. It's also like handling like you can bring it beyond just the ads and push it into your like messenger inbox. So you're handling like DM inquiries, kind of like chatbots is. You know, they've always existed, but you can run that through this same, same AI business agent essentially and kind of customize it as you go. So it'd be interesting how it evolves because it's just really like putting your ads on steroids, essentially.

A (17:17)

And how much of a does it do? All the learning about your brand from what you have available on your site? Or is it part of setting it up that you've got to provide all the proper brand documentation, brand voice, that kind of thing?

B (17:28)

It's a bit of both. It pulls what it can from the site like you're putting your destination URL in the ad and it's sort of pulling from that. You have your metapixel across your website. So it can track people's interactions, but you can feed it Data. So the FAQs, for example, you can go in, make sure you upload all those and then, hey, now it has 100% accurate info. It's not going to pull the wrong thing. So it's a bit of both for sure. And the actual customize option isn't available yet for many people. Even for us, like, it's mainly just the feature to turn it on is starting to roll out, so definitely want to keep an eye on it. Definitely keep an eye on the comments on your ads. Make sure again, the whole like sentiment is good with it, but it's a really cool enhancement that I think will improve conversion down the road for sure.

A (18:26)

Very cool.

B (18:27)

I have some steps for it, but.

A (18:29)

Yeah, let's hear them.

B (18:30)

So basically you added at the ad level, full functionality is not quite there yet. Eventually you will be able to access the assistant directly in your business suite or your ads manager sidebar. Step one, upload your site PDFs, brand voice guidelines to train your agent. So this is the piece that's coming out still. Step two, you can set up guardrails so you can set like limits on it. You can set a tone of voice. Is it stern? Is it, you know, funny? Like, is there humor? You can also set like human, human loop triggers. And then step three is deploying it. So like turning on agentic placements. It's. I think it's only available in Advantage plus campaigns, which would make sense, but you just turn those on at the ad level. So do you have some control over it? But ultimately turning it on is pretty easy.

A (19:26)

So these are some, two big changes here. The one thing that we can talk about maybe on a future one we'll get Jeff on as well because Jeff has just launched a DTC ad account on his Claude through the mcp. So I'm interested to see what kind of results. We actually just launched our first campaigns for subscribers and initially we're getting this sort of exact same results we're getting on the managed account. Um, so I'm interested to see if it's just a, a new account getting some low hanging fruit or if it's something that can continue because it's, it's an interesting experiment. We'll have to keep this, the podcast posted on how that, how that goes.

B (20:00)

A hundred percent. Yeah, it's, it's evolving rapidly. I think the best thing you can do right now is power yourself, your employees, everyone to, to experiment, make sure you have holdout tests and ultimately don't just commit to one, one format or one tool. Because like you said, Claude, you can go in, you can set up the CLI line and basically start pushing live, you know, builds right into Meta, QA it and Meta, test it against here. Don't just assume it's going to be better, but also you can assume that there's efficiency gains. Right. So it's just like there's Manus, you know, Meta's AI chatbot, which they're trying to match with Claude. So eventually I'm sure you're going to be able to push things through there just as efficiently as Claude. So just be having a pulse on all these things, test them out, but test them efficiently, QA them. And then on the other side, Meta is also trying to keep people in Meta. Right. They want people using Meta, so they're releasing things almost too fast where it's like you do need to be keeping a finger on all these things.

A (21:08)

Yeah, the thing about, I was actually chatting with a friend of mine who I met in Vegas who runs Hazel, which is an AI platform for sort of that ties all your platforms together is the idea with that. And he was just talking about the limitations of MCP specifically and how it's good for like single call commands where you like launch this campaign, what are my results here, so on. So. But it's nothing. You can't really rely on it to synthesize data that you might be able to right now anyways, you know, otherwise in Claude and that it's got some limitations when it comes to a lot of like analysis and synthesis, but it's only, it's such early days.

B (21:42)

Yeah, it's be not long probably and that'll just be improving as well. So it's all improving on itself for sure.

A (21:50)

How are results overall right now with with meta across accounts? Are we having regular Q2 results?

B (21:56)

Yeah, I was actually looking the other day on like the master kind of report and pretty consistent for Q2. Like I said, some of our accounts have seen platform roas drops in meta simply because they're not counting like the likes and the things that they used to count. But then you look at the ecosystem and it's either consistent or upticking. So yeah, I think overall performance has been pretty good. There was a few dips, a couple like last month essentially. Obviously lots going on in the world in the US being a little more careful with their spending but honestly there's always something going on so it's hard to, to attribute it specifically to that. But pretty, pretty normal results from what I've seen.

A (22:44)

Who's the big winner? Is it the retention team that would end up counting the conversion in most cases that that meta is relinquishing by not counting the, the clicks on, on posts and, and videos and such?

B (22:57)

Yeah, I mean theoretically if they're not showing up in the incremental or they're just liking a post and then buying it's probably organic honestly like it's just going to show up unless they're clicking maybe a Google Ad or watching a YouTube video or you know, unless they are interacting through another channel. If it's just, you know, quick view of a video and they buy it's probably just going to show up as organic in your, your third party reporting.

A (23:23)

Now it's interesting, doesn't it discount top of funnel too much like isn't there? I guess, I guess they're ultimately trying to get them to engage with your page on their platform anyway. So even if it's the job of the impression to get them to a click, I just, I just. These platforms for so long which have been trying to push the value of impression based conversion so it's just interesting to hear them move back on it a little bit fundamentally.

B (23:48)

Yeah, no it is interesting but it is a consistent complaint everyone's always had about meta is that they over attribute. You don't even have a choice a lot of the time to view an ad, right. You're just scrolling and all of a sudden there's an ad in front of your face. Something you're already aware of potentially. So it's kind of like a middle ground. They're not discounting it completely. Like I said, you can still view the view purchases but the default one, the seven day click isn't including some of those actions now.

A (24:16)

Good to know. Well, thanks again for the updates and yeah man, stay in touch about it. We got, we got, we got playoffs starting now. Who are you rooting for with the Canucks out?

B (24:25)

I mean probably Canada Team, maybe Montreal.

A (24:28)

Montreal, baby.

B (24:29)

There we go.

A (24:30)

Team of destiny.

B (24:31)

And thanks for having me on. Yeah.

A (24:32)

All right, talk to you later. Jacob, Thanks for listening to today's episode. If you're not getting the DTC newsletter, you can subscribe for free at directtoconsumer co. And if you want to learn more about Pilothouse's all killer no filler services, take off to Pilothouse Co. I'm Eric Dick and this has been the D2C podcast. We'll see you next time.