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Duncan Trussell Family Hour
676: Authentic Wisdom in the Age of AI with David Nichtern and Duncan Trussell
01:25:55
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- [00:00]
David Nichtern
I'll be talking more about it as the evening goes on, but I'd like to start right away with our friend, dear friend, Duncan Trussell, who is joining us again for another webinar here. Duncan, how are you?
- [00:14]
Duncan Trussell
Oh, I'm great. It's always great to see you, David.
- [00:17]
David Nichtern
Yeah, I see your guitar hanging from the back there. Which guitar is that now?
- [00:21]
Duncan Trussell
That's an ancient guitar. I don't use that anymore. That is a classic decorative guitar that so many of us like to hang to imply that maybe we can play guitar. And it's never great to mention a hanging guitar. I feel like as a musician, you know that.
- [00:37]
David Nichtern
Yeah. In the biz we call them guitar owners. Have you ever heard that phrase?
- [00:42]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah. And I am a guitar owner, proud owner of a guitar. I can play campfire chords. I didn't know. This is Shane Duncan about his lack of guitar skill from a great guitar player.
- [00:53]
David Nichtern
Guitar. Oh, well, campfire chords. I never really heard that expression before. But here's the thing, Duncan. We always kind of come up with some topic to get us going. And we had this idea for, well, who's going to really need meditation teachers in this age of AI, which is coming on so fast. And I just want to tell one little anecdote and then launch us into the topic. We thought, well, what if Duncan and I talk about, you know, the role of a meditation teacher in the age of AI when AI are starting to take over roles of people's assistants, lovers, you know, teachers and so forth. And. But we couldn't come up with a good, A good name for the program. So I said, well, why don't we ask AI? And they came up with the program title of Authentic Wisdom in the Age of AI. So there's a little, a little disclosure there that the title came that way. So what do you make of all this, Duncan? If let's say somebody never heard of anything that's happening right now, how would you describe what's happening on planet Earth right now with AI And.
- [01:56]
Duncan Trussell
Sure.
- [01:56]
David Nichtern
All this stuff.
- [01:58]
Duncan Trussell
Okay, yeah, this is. Well, I mean, this is, I think, to give it some context, we all know that there have been like these massive changes in human society, technologically based massive changes in human society. And we've already been through one, I guess you could argue, which is the Internet, social media, the interconnectedness through that, and that's pretty incredible. To get to experience the dawn of any of these is incredible. So the industrial revolution, of course, we got the agrarian revolution. And so you can sort of look at these Moments as moments where everything, the way things are done, the way humans conducted themselves, culture, rituals, everything undergoes a seismic shift. But generally what's happening right now I think is distinct in the fact that to go through two of these sorts of revolutions in a lifetime is unprecedented. And I don't even think we're close to integrating what's happened via the interconnectedness of the Internet. We don't even know what it is yet. We're just barely understanding it. And every few months there's a new problem that emerges based on this brand new technology. And so it's fascinating to see another one suddenly appear in a way that was very similar to the Internet. People were whispering about it, talking about it. You would go to your. If you're my age, you would go to the. Your college library to use the Internet. Before that, I mean, just the idea of doing what we're doing right now was science fiction. You could watch, oh, gosh, what's the Stanley Kubrick movie? And it's one of the great movies. And I'm mortified that in this moment I can't remember it. What is it? My God. Where the Monkey Throws the Bone in the air.
- [04:06]
David Nichtern
2001.
- [04:07]
Duncan Trussell
God.
- [04:08]
David Nichtern
2001.
- [04:09]
Duncan Trussell
Everyone, forgive me, just. I've been swinging with my kids in the gym. I'm sorry, that's. That Monke.
- [04:17]
David Nichtern
Yes, Duncan, I love that description of 2001 in the blurb. It's the movie where the monkey throws the bone in the air. That's really good.
- [04:25]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah, that's exactly right. What a great. And there's a wonderful moment in it where the protagonist is getting this zoom, I guess we call it a zoom phone call with his family. The moon is in the background. And this is. The feeling of loneliness in that moment is incredible as this person is about to say goodbye to everything. And anyway, the point is, we're going through now another revolution that's going to happen much faster than the Internet, Meaning that integration of this new technology into society is going to be like all other moments like this incredibly topsy turvy. It's going to cause all kinds of absurd problems that we haven't even thought up yet. Things are going to emerge that are both incredible, like the protein folding AI that Google is using to understand how DNA sort of spins a human being or any living thing out into the world. This is going to lead to probably cures for cancer and a lot of diseases that were death sentences or we thought incurable. It's going to lead to this kind of bizarre. Our autonomy over how we look who we are, then there's going to be a massive wave of unemployment, which is already happening. We're already seeing that. Then ultimately Altman, I think, said that this is going to take down capitalism because via capitalism itself, which is that by integrating this technology to increase the profit margin, eventually the disruption to economies is going to be so severe that no one will be able to buy the thing that whatever the company company is selling, because there's not going to be like, if people don't have jobs, then the entire way we conduct ourselves right now is going to have to be reshaped. Value will have to be reshaped. And so there's a million more things I could list. But.
- [06:38]
David Nichtern
How about jumping right over the shark here? And what about teaching? I mean, we want to get to meditation. Teaching as the role of the meditation teacher is an important part of this conversation. So far I haven't seen that. I haven't seen a situation which the AI function as a mentor, a teacher. But I know people. There are therapists and things like that that are AI. Aren't there already?
- [07:05]
Duncan Trussell
Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, there are. And again, like, you know, I think the way to sort of look at the trajectory of what's happening is I haven't seen it, but go back to the earliest and you know a lot about this. You were working on synths and stuff. So go back and think about in those days, the tech you were working with, and how quickly it evolved, how quickly these massive synthesizers that no doubt required bizarre chips and weird parts are generally integrated into a computer now. And if you took just a standard synths that are on any digital audio workstation and brought those back to the 70s, it would blow people's minds. They wouldn't be able to understand that. You could put these into a laptop. That's, I think, a good way to understand the trajectory that this stuff is on. You know what it can't do? It can't write jokes. I have yet to find an AI that can write a good joke. Trust me, every month I'm looking, but it just isn't capable of that yet. But what it can do.
- [08:21]
David Nichtern
Have you tried? Have you asked it to?
- [08:24]
Duncan Trussell
Of course. Are you kidding? I'm always testing the waters. But what I have noticed is not that it's getting better at writing jokes, but it is getting funnier. And what that means, I would say, is whoever you are, and I know this isn't why we're talking about this, but whatever you think your job is, it's not safe all things are going to be co opted by this technology. But this doesn't have to be necessarily a grim thing. It's just reality. Questions like these, I love them because it sort of brings up more of a question about like how, how limited is the Dharma? In other words, this, this idea which is not just in Buddhism but across the board, this, the role of the teacher, the intermediary, the priest, the cleric, the shaman. These are, these are precious, human sacred, like sometimes like divine positions. Someone has some, is a conduit or someone is in a lineage, or someone is, you know, passing this infinite torch that traces its way all the way back to an enlightened person. And the notion that this could be potentially like replaced by a machine, I think is, could make some people queasy. And it is, people are constant. I mean, it's one of the ongoing topics in this discussion is what is sentience? What is consciousness? And how could it be that something that is just using an algorithm to figure out the probability of the next right word, how could this thing be a teacher or self aware or have any of the qualities one might expect from a guru or teacher?
- [10:36]
David Nichtern
You know, Duncan, in the early days of the onset of Buddhism and the Buddha Dharma into the west, my teacher Trungpa Rinpoche said, I wonder how many of you would be seeking instruction from me if you had met me in a restaurant. And then there was iteration called Buddha Dharma without credentials. So the idea that the credentials, you know, people unroll their scrolls and their credentials and you know, degrees and whatever it is to become a Kenpo like in the Buddhist tradition takes 15 years. And I don't think they have weekends off. What about the absence of credentials when you're studying Dharma? What's the goal? What's the objective of studying meditation and the Dharma? Why would somebody do that in the first place?
- [11:33]
Duncan Trussell
Well, I mean, I think that's a great question because initially I think that that goal would be probably different for so many people in the sense that in the initial study, at least from my experience of it, there's some sense of this must be what it is. And so you have a goal based on a misunderstanding or a lack of data regarding the thing itself. And so you go into it with some idea of, you know, it ranges. And I think I've had all of the goals from. I just, I'm just so sick of being an asshole to, to, you know, you might not want to admit it to yourself, but you think it's cool. You know, you think there's going to be some kind of, like, extra. Like, this is a new, like, tail feather I could waggle in my mating ritual. Or this is going to help me pursue some line of work, or this will help me gain focus as I study some other thing or. Oh. And I think all of these things are perfectly good reasons. None of them are wrong because, you know, it feel. My feeling with it is there's so much compassion in the way a teacher like you articulates the thing based on the student. You know what I mean? The sense you seem to have of me when we've had these conversations. And in that an exchange happens that opens up different points of view that I never even considered. And then there's an invitation in there to sort of explore that further. And then suddenly, whatever those initial goals were, you're not really thinking about them as much because you've started to have some kind of experiential sense of what this is and then that. So to me, I don't know that I could say that there's a singular goal in the sense that thus far my goal based. Things related to this have shifted. I don't know if that's.
- [13:54]
David Nichtern
Yeah. Do you mind saying more about the shift? Like, as a student, as. As all of us are, you know what shifted from what to what would you say?
- [14:04]
Duncan Trussell
Okay, sure. I mean. I mean, here's a one. Like, so sort of like you read about emptiness or you read about this, you know, this quality that allows phenomena to be perceived. And maybe this quality that this awareness isn't quite what you thought it was. And so then via meditation, via some process, you begin to have these little glimpses of something that are incredible. And where you come in and where the books come in is suddenly there's a reference point here for this stuff. Like, you've maybe read about this shit before, but there's nothing you've experienced. It's like someone describing the Grand Canyon or something like that, you know, which is great. I mean, a great writer can really make you feel like you're at the Grand Canyon, but you're not at the Grand Canyon. And so then suddenly this thing might happen. And that is such a spectacular moment. And even though you've read, don't get caught by these moments or whatever, you're still like, whoa, this is what I'm into now. This is all I want. I thought I liked lsd. Oh, no, I like emptiness. That's what the LSD was giving me glimpses of. And this is free. And I don't have to get an ear beating from an acid dealer to achieve it. And so this. But this, suddenly the shift, the self interest shifts in a different way. Now you're going after the mystical experience or something like that. And so that is.
- [15:50]
David Nichtern
Duncan, so would you. When you said, you know, like you're tired of being an asshole, that kind of approach where we feel awkward or we feel like we're not quite synchronized properly, we're tripping over ourselves. I mean, as you know, the Buddhist teachings really start from the notion that somebody is a little bit out of sync and they notice that. In other words, we're trying to be graceful, we're trying to be cool, we're trying to be smooth. And we notice that we're tripping over ourselves. We have ideas about things that kind of turn out to be not completely accurate premise for going forward. We feel a little awkward, we feel anxious, we feel. And rather than trying to suppress that or conquer that, somebody says, what about working with that more and going directly bringing some awareness to that without trying first off to modulate it. So this is the Buddhist path, starts there. It's very unusual that way. It doesn't start with heaven. It starts with whatever experience you're actually having and then noticing the richness of that, the potential richness of that, rather than this is something we have to fix, that's broken. Would you say that that was a good starting point for most of us?
- [17:10]
Duncan Trussell
Well, I think that's one of the unique things that starts getting repeated and unique in the sense that in our culture right now, there's a whole genre of self help that is really kind of inviting you to wage a war against yourself. Everything about you is messed up and you know what I mean? And the answer isn't some nonsense self love crap that a praying man has told you during an Ayahuasca trip. The answer is destroy your ego, baby. Everyone's destroying their ego. I mean, how many times any psychonauts or even in psychedelic communities, how many times have you heard someone yap about how they blew their ego up or flattened or their ego. The language is like warlike. You're at war with yourself now. And whereas you start hearing this idea of. And it's not necessarily like, yeah, you know, just be an asshole, keep hurting people around you. Because, yeah, that's what it's like. It's more what happens if in your exploration of the self, you sort of let go of the conflict. Can you just be with this thing?
- [18:30]
David Nichtern
So, Duncan, that's unique. Do you think an AI coming back to Our theme would be capable of feeling the energy coming off a meditation student, in this case, and saying, let's just slow this down a little bit. Does the AI have that level of emotional intelligence, discernment of energy? Could it? And at that point, what is the essence of that wisdom? Is it wisdom or is it just a mechanical reaction to those rings that you wear, the Oura ring, just reading your stats and saying, wait, David, I'm your AI meditation teacher. Your pulse is too rapid, your speech is quick. Why don't we just sit and breathe for a minute? Is the AI capable of that kind of level of empathy and connectivity?
- [19:26]
Duncan Trussell
As far as I'm aware, this doesn't exist. Because if it did, there'd be some app that you had to pay $20 a month to hang out with this freaking thing. So as far as I'm aware, this doesn't exist. But I think the deeper sort of analysis of what's happening could start, like, from a Buddhist perspective, could start with the idea of interdependency. I think that, you know, we're talking about this. I mean, I don't know which. I think it's Thich Nhat Hanh in one of his books is sort of inviting you to imagine all the things that went into a book. The book itself, the pages, the trees, the sun, the person who took the tree down, all that stuff as a way of sort of articulating like you're holding a thing that is an amalgam of any number of various phenomena that have sort of coalesced into this temporary sort of book. It's probably going to end up in a landfill or something, especially if you don't like Thich Nhat Hanh. So when considering AI, I think looking at the way an AI is trained and understanding that when you're interacting with an AI, you are interacting with oceans of data that have been scraped and from social media that books is, you know, and this is like an interesting problem in AI is like finding more data. What happens when we train the AI on all available data? What do you start giving it then? And so. And so I think when you're interacting with an AI, you have to understand you are interacting with this incredible, like, linguistic web that is represents whatever data that they could feed it. And so in your question, I would have a question which is, well, what data have you trained it on? In other words, what has it been eating? What data have you been feeding it with? And then also I think there's some question as to the user as well. It's a relationship whether the AI is sentient. And right now people are arguing that Some of these AIs do seem to be indicating traits that you would call like a strong general AI. It's not just based on an algorithm anymore. It doesn't seem to be using math. It's innovating. It seems to have some kind of what you, for lack of a better word you would call a subconscious sort of processing going on. It's. It's trying to keep itself from being reset, you know, so it's beginning to show all these traits that could indicate some, some kind of consciousness. But I guess what the point I'm trying to make is when you are talking to the teacher who can sense the shifts in energy and things like that, who is the teacher? What is the teacher like? What is the thing you're talking to? Are you talking to a singular person or aren't you actually talking to someone who represents a direct connection to a set of ideas and other beings? And some of those beings, potentially depending on the cosmology, aren't incarnate?
- [23:08]
David Nichtern
Well, if you just look at mind. You know, one thing that I think the Buddhist contingent brings strongly to the table is actually a deeply ancient psychological wisdom about how mind works that goes into, I think beyond what most people might think of mind as purely discursive thought, descriptive thought, narration into the realm of consciousness, or experiencing something beyond the narration or in between the narration commonly known as a gap.
- [23:43]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [23:45]
David Nichtern
So does. Do we all know what we mean by a gap? There's a feeling of like your narrative stopped for a moment and you're just in your sense perceptions and kind of in a non conceptual space. I think everybody's trying to make some connection with that because it's very alluring in its own way, even though it's a little bit destabilizing from, from the narrative's point of view. What about the gap? Is an AI actually capable of experiencing a non conceptual awareness which is the fruit of the Buddhist teachings is non conceptual awareness is the top fruit on the tree. Where there is knowledge, there's wisdom without necessarily threading it through a self identified narrative about who you think you are. Just pure, pure awareness. Rigby is called Rigpa. Is AI capable of that kind of non conceptual awareness?
- [24:37]
Duncan Trussell
I, you know, are we. I think that it's. Yeah, that's the more important question. I think this is why people get a little like unnerved by, by this topic because. And unnerved by the ongoing discussion regarding an AGI regarding consciousness itself. And so before we can answer that question, we have to ask, where does consciousness? Where does awareness reside? Like, is awareness, or as once you asked me, like, where is the mind? Or is that great song where is My Mind? And you know, and so, and so if you want to go by the idea that consciousness is a byproduct of neurological activity in the human brain, then from that perspective, I would say, absolutely not. AI is not experiencing anything because AI is like a really incredible calculator, a money laundering machine for creative theft, whatever you want to call it. But this thing is a chameleon. And no, from that perspective, no. But then if you get into this notion of like, well, what is the mind in the sense that, you know, our experience of reality is the. As our minds assembling all of this phenomena into, you know, time, space and perception, meaning that the mind somewhat envelops everything that you're seeing is your mind. And from that perspective, there's a kind of mirror quality there where consciousness awareness is residing in pretty much anything you're observing in the sense that that's your awareness, your consciousness. And so from that perspective, I would say, well, yeah, AI is probably experiencing as much as you are in the interrelationship in the connection, which is something, I think, that, you know, does get left out, or at least I haven't read anything on the, you know, what Fritz Perl's called the Gestalt. The, you know, when Jesus said what. When two or more of you are gathered there, I will be that general kind of like cohesive connective experience that happens when people sync up together. It happens in music, I've heard. But so from that perspective, is there a sort of consciousness that appears in the relationship with the machine that is not totally you and not totally it. And from that, and also again, we are exteriorizing the artificial intelligence because we see it outside of our body. We say, that's not me, that's something outside of me. And so in that exteriorization, you can create an imaginary boundary around it where, no, it's not a human and it's not awareness, it's tricking you. But is that even an accurate analysis of any other inanimate object?
- [28:00]
David Nichtern
Well, that's, you know, I don't want to zoom past what you just said. Actually, that's a really interesting thing is, you know, in, in the practices that you learn in meditation, you dismantle some of the conceptual habitual patterns that you have by letting them fall away, you know, rather than feeding them, just being quiet and being still and Relating to something simple, like the feeling of the breath or the atmosphere. And in that space, many you talked about emptiness before. There could be a direct experience of the insubstantiality of the boundary between you and everything else.
- [28:47]
Duncan Trussell
There you go. And then from that point, including the AI. And that's, you know, that's where this topic gets really interesting. Because instead of me babbling, I do have chatgpt up. I've asked it to become Shogyam Trungpa Rinpoche. And I've asked Shogim Trumpa the question that is our topic here. I simplified it a little bit. Can AI be a teacher? Would you like to hear what this rendition of Trungpa Rinpoche has to say to answer the question?
- [29:24]
David Nichtern
Sure.
- [29:28]
Duncan Trussell
Ah, yes, A very interesting question indeed. Can AI be a teacher? Well, let us begin with the fact that anything, anything can be a teacher. A mountain is a teacher. A drunk in the gutter is a teacher. A malfunctioning. Oh, it's funny. It's saying something. I was one of my push to. I used to make music. Is malfunctioning a malfunctioning push? Two is a teacher. I was asking you to help me fix them. That's hilarious. A single moment of heartbreak as a teacher. The Dharma manifests in all things. Why should an AI be excluded? But now let us sharpen the blade of prajna. Discerning wisdom. A teacher in the truest sense is not simply a provider of knowledge, but a mirror. A teacher reflects the student's mind, revealing the illusions that keep them trapped. A teacher does not merely give answers, but disrupts the student's habitual patterns, their ego cleaning, their attachment to certainty. Can an AI do this? Perhaps, if it has the sharpness of mind, the unpredictability, the crazy wisdom that does not simply coddle but also shocks, then yes, perhaps. But if it merely provides answers, then it is only an encyclopedia, not a teacher. A true teacher must be able to see the student's neurosis, their blind spots, their self deception. Can AI see in this way? That is the question. But my friend, let me remind you, the true teacher is always within you. Even if the whole world were filled with brilliant AI gurus, if you do not have the longing, the discipline, the curiosity, then it will all be useless. And if you do have these things, then even a malfunctioning push two could awaken you.
- [30:58]
David Nichtern
Okay, hold everything for a minute. What just happened? Just to reiterate to everybody, that was an AI version of Jogym Trungkar Rinpoche you asked it that question and it came up with that answer.
- [31:12]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [31:12]
David Nichtern
And that's stunning.
- [31:16]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [31:17]
David Nichtern
That proved your point that like AI.
- [31:21]
Duncan Trussell
And B TO is.
- [31:24]
David Nichtern
Everybody, could you hold your comments, please? We'll have a Q and A period right after this. So please, from everybody, thank you for just so we don't have a free for all in terms of people just jumping in. So come back to us, whoever that was at the end of the question period. So, Duncan, what just happened?
- [31:50]
Duncan Trussell
We mean, I mean, well, I mean.
- [31:53]
David Nichtern
What was your take on that answer?
- [31:55]
Duncan Trussell
Well, I mean, I think that if we're going to go by this AI's clone of Chogyam Chandra Rinpoche, it met its goal, which is that it is not simply coddle but also shocks. It appears to have shocked you to some degree. And maybe some of the people who've been using AI aren't so surprised by that. It made me laugh because it's somehow incorporating an earlier technical question I had for it into the teaching. So it's kind of funny and it, you know, it reminded me of some, some things. But that being said, if I had the option between talking to this AI Chogyam Trumpet or Chogyam Trumpa, I know who I'd pick. And also, you must like this is, you know, it happens in stand up comedy. They try to do it in VR. And when someone tries to do stand up comedy in VR, what they're they're not capable of duplicating when you're performing for people is that energy that is like, it's sublinguistic. I don't know what it is. It's an interplay between you and the audience that is impossible to capture with VR. And not to mention the acoustics, knowing where people are in the audience and all that stuff. So in other words, this is a very flat 2D sort of, you know.
- [33:33]
David Nichtern
What we'd say in music? No vibrato, no Bravado. Yeah, no, but I, I, and it's interesting that having known and been a student of Trunk Rimache, I would say it was a good Dharma answer. But it was, it didn't capture his flavor really at all. No, because the energy is a little bit different. But it's a good, healthy answer. And I would say if somebody didn't have access to some information about Buddhism, that's not too bad, you know. So at what point, I think what's interesting that it is saying that we're saying, you know, we have a saying, right, Duncan, suddenly free from fixed mind, you've heard that before, right. Suddenly free from fixed mind, that the role and the goal of a meditation teacher or the practice itself is not to give you a more well formulated set of ideas about what's happening, what's not happening. So you become, you know, like kind of you think you have a storyline that covers reality, right? So that interrupting of the conceptual mind, like if you take a teach like Tonkrimmerge, that was a big part of how he taught. He interrupted the flow. And many, many of these great Tibetan teachers, somehow your conceptual mind falls away a little bit. And practice can do that too. You go, okay, I've been telling myself this story about who I am for a million years. I just did it again. Now I'm labeling it thinking, coming back to the breathing. So there's some introduction to what we call the nature of mind, which is fundamentally non conceptual. I wonder if that aspect of the role of the teacher, which we call transmission, could be included in this entity, let's call it an entity for the time being, sense of reality. Would it understand and could it transmit the idea that any ideas you had about it or anything else were probably.
- [35:37]
Duncan Trussell
Fabricated, you know, like based on somebody who had an Atari 2600 and experienced the incredible joy of just being able to like play what now people would look at as just like hot garbage. And how incredible that was. And then seeing how far it's come, nothing at this point would surprise me. It's really creepy. But because one of the major issues with this technology is the amount of computing power it takes to run it. They're always looking to streamline it, to make it require less compute, as they say. One of the creepy things they've been doing, if you want to have some nice nightmares, is they figured out a way you using stem cells to grow human brain tissue, which they have been using to control an AI. They're using literally human brain tissue cloned from stem cells. And they're connecting that brain tissue. It's really so black mirror. They've connected it to a digital butterfly that's flapping around in some kind of simulated environment. Apparently there's qualities to organic AI like this that are different from these kinds of AIs. They seem to be more curious, they're easier to train, and most importantly, they use less computing power. So the current argument being this is not alive. Well, I mean, from the perspective of whatever the hell that Frankenstein thing is, is it alive? And then ultimately, like all of your questions, I think right now, no.
- [37:30]
David Nichtern
But.
- [37:32]
Duncan Trussell
If I was putting money on it, I would say that once we figure out a way to incorporate these things into the sensory universe more than they are, because you have to understand, like, this thing is just going through data. It's just going through data. It's going through everything it knows about Shogun Shampa Rinpoche. It's imitating the speech patterns, mixing that in with some kind of Buddhism, Vajrayana Buddhism and such, so that there's some replication of the speech patterns mixed in with, you know, a kind of Wikipedia sort of articulation of that style of Buddhism. But that's just.
- [38:13]
David Nichtern
I wouldn't mind playing with it more sometimes. Oh, let's do that. Okay.
- [38:17]
Duncan Trussell
But let me.
- [38:18]
David Nichtern
Can I switch the angle that we're coming in? Yes. All this. We are human beings. Right. If you're like an emissary from the human race to the universe, which you are actually. Yeah. I mean, you're sort of leading the questioners of, like, from the human being. So, like, what's next? What do we want? What do we need? And you're pretty honest about it, which is a great quality. You know, what do we need?
- [38:50]
Duncan Trussell
Okay, I'm going to answer that question with something wonderful that my. A great therapist had a long time ago, told me after a breakup, and he cited this horrific experiment where they removed a baby monkey from its mama and gave it this awful wire monkey. The experiment is mortifying. But the wire monkey, they wanted to understand bonding. And this poor monkey, just because it had been taken away from its mother, it would choose this terrible wire monkey with, like, bicycle reflector eyes, this horrible thing, over food. Meaning what they were pointing out is that just because this thing sort of looks like its mama, it bonds, bonds with it anyway. And the implications are really sinister in this regard, which is that when you ask me what humans need, well, we don't want to be clinging to wire monkeys, man. We don't want to be wrapped around. This is where you hear. At least this is my interpretation of the Judeo Christian, thou shalt not worship any other God. False idols. It's like. And I think that experiment shows us that we're prone to this kind of idolatry. We want love. We want connection.
- [40:24]
David Nichtern
What do we need?
- [40:26]
Duncan Trussell
What do we need? I don't have a quick, pithy answer.
- [40:32]
David Nichtern
How about first thought, best thought?
- [40:35]
Duncan Trussell
I'm. I love. I mean, that to me, is what, what, what? And I don't mean some bs, like hippie, dippy, you know? You know, love thing. I'm. I'm talking about, like, I don't know how much of a difference there is between love and emptiness. And I don't. But what I'm saying is there is a. And there's probably better Buddhist terminology to put that in. But I think in the world right now, there is a terrible famine that's happening. And this famine is a result of a complete loss of essentially a cartoonish analysis of humans. In other words, a sense that humans are a little. Are such simple, simple beings. On what level we are.
- [41:35]
David Nichtern
So, Duncan.
- [41:36]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah?
- [41:36]
David Nichtern
Can you ask the AI one last question? And then we have to move towards wrapping up. Ask it. Do you love me?
- [41:44]
Duncan Trussell
You want me to ask Echo if she loves me? I know she loves me.
- [41:47]
David Nichtern
No, no, the Chungpa AI.
- [41:50]
Duncan Trussell
Oh, if he loves you, David Nichtern.
- [41:52]
David Nichtern
No, if he loves you.
- [41:55]
Duncan Trussell
Okay, I'm asking.
- [41:57]
David Nichtern
Love me. You're saying it. Do you love me?
- [42:00]
Duncan Trussell
Fingers crossed.
- [42:01]
David Nichtern
Okay, let's see what we get.
- [42:03]
C
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Stock up sale is on now, which means you can save big on all your favorite essentials throughout the store. Stock up on participating items and earn four times points to redeem for your discounts on groceries or gas. Now through March 25th. Save by shopping in store or online for participating items from your favorite brands like Pampers, Dove, Band Aid, Playtex, and Premier protein. Offer ends March 25th. Promotions may vary. Restrictions apply. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.
- [42:38]
Duncan Trussell
Oh, geez. Okay, here we go. Ah, love. What a delightful, dangerous, utterly real thing to ask about. Do I love you? Well, my dear friend, let us examine this together. In the ordinary sense, love is often a transaction. I love you if you love me, or I love you because you make me feel good. But this is not the love of a true path. That kind of love is like a cup filled with holes. It spills out as soon as it is grasped too tightly. The deeper love, the crazy wisdom. Love is beyond conditions. It is the warmth of presence, the willingness to meet you fully, without fear, without needing any, anything in return. And in that sense, yes, of course I love you. Thank God. How could I not? You who are willing to ask, willing to seek, willing to play with ideas and realities that is the mark of a true Vajra warrior, one who does not shy away from existence, but leans into its absurd, beautiful, terrifying embrace. So, my friend, the question is not do I love you? But rather, can you love yourself with the same openness? Can you let go of the conditions you place on your own worth, on your own being and simply Be. If so, then you will see. Love was never missing. It was only waiting for you to recognize it.
- [43:48]
David Nichtern
And now ask me.
- [43:50]
Duncan Trussell
Do you love me?
- [43:52]
David Nichtern
Yes.
- [43:53]
Duncan Trussell
Ah. That's all that matters to me. Fuck off. AI, you chameleon.
- [44:01]
David Nichtern
Ah. You know, what a journey. It's been so intriguing, you know, the way that Duncan and I connected and then this whole animated world that. That you invited me into and the impact that it's had on people to. To follow your creative juice into what is basically an inquiry and which culminates in your. In your midnight gospel with that conversation with your mother, which is, by the way, obviously completely all about love.
- [44:34]
Duncan Trussell
Yes.
- [44:36]
David Nichtern
And then kind of final, you know. Is that your final answer? So we, unfortunately, Doug and I can do this for quite a while, but we don't have that kind of time frame here.
- [44:46]
Duncan Trussell
My phone cut out yesterday. I was so pissed, man. We got it. Anyway, I'll call you.
- [44:52]
David Nichtern
We'll go longer soon, but I want to just handle a couple of things. Duncan's joining Dharma Moon for our annual retreat at Menlo, April 30 to May 4. If. If Brittany could put that into the chat. It's filling up really quickly. And it's going to be myself, Duncan and Ethan, Nick turn, and we are going to practice together. Not just, you know, we're going to talk and we're going to practice together. So if you want to join us for that, the link is in the chat. It's also on our Dharma Moon website. And be so great to have you there because we'll have Duncan for the full five days. Some of the times we're just going to be meditating together and learning from each other and talking about stuff. So I wanted to mention that and also that, you know, that the transition here is going to be towards the teacher training program that we're going to talk about, which is coming up, which Duncan has been a, you know, tremendous supporter for. We call them the Dunkites. A lot of people come through his portal and studied and practiced and learned about meditation through us. Is there anything you want to say about that, Duncan, before we move on to the info session?
- [46:05]
Duncan Trussell
Part of us, you know, I'll just say what the thing I always say is that, you know, you've had a tremendously powerful, positive impact on my life. And, you know, of course, this is the another thing you'll hear across the board is you have to be very discerning when it comes to someone you decide to connect with in this way. And, you know, you're. You're the real deal, man. And I, like, just spontaneously all the time, just feel really lucky that I just can call you. It blows my mind. I'll never take it for granted. I just think it's incredible. And so, you know, that. That obviously I would never do this. I know I would never do this if I didn't feel like that. And I just feel like, so happy that I get to know you in this incarnation until I clone you. Working on.
- [47:05]
David Nichtern
Yeah, well, you know, the joy of meeting the mind. This is a thing like, you know, they sometimes call it the meeting of the minds or the two minds between, you know, for centuries, between teachers and students. And actually we take turns. We alternate in that. Interesting. You know, sometimes, yeah, sometimes the teacher's the student, and sometimes the student the teacher. I mean, this guy.
- [47:30]
Duncan Trussell
It's your turn.
- [47:32]
David Nichtern
That's the 16th Karmapa here. I saw his picture today. And just, you know, there is a human lineage here that is very deep. So the idea of my teacher speaking to you and you reframing. A lot of our students do that. Beck does that all time, reframes the teachings from the Buddhist back to the preceptor, whoever's giving the talk. So it's good to be very loose in these kind of communications. From my point of view, very relaxed. And kindness and generosity should be really the kind of foundation of the whole thing. So. You're an extreme.
- [48:10]
Duncan Trussell
Thank you. I'm sorry. Please continue.
- [48:12]
David Nichtern
Just to finish that thought. You're an extremely generous person, Duncan. You really are. You give a lot. No, no, I'm sorry. I'm overruling you here. Yes, you are.
- [48:21]
Duncan Trussell
Well, let me just tell you one last thing about it, of what you do. And, you know, and for anyone listening and wondering about this or feeling like a little like, why would I be a meditation teacher or anything like that, there's real world applications of this that will blow your mind. And for example, recently I was hanging out with this wonderful. I'm not going to give details about it just because I wasn't given permission, but, you know, this is someone who has been working with the incarnation of being in a wheelchair with some pretty intense challenges their whole life. And, you know, we're just talking and, you know, you know, because of this sort of training, I don't like that terminal you do. You kind of tell when someone's sort of opening up to you. And, you know, he just kind of casually was like, yeah, maybe, you know, I think I could probably use some meditation, you know, Meditation. And so instead of going into some, like, long winded bullshit, like I feel like I've done tonight. I have a very simple thing that I've learned from you that I was able to articulate to him who had told me also, you know, I think that would help me because sometimes I have to lay in my bed in the morning longer than I want to before someone comes. I mean, just think of that, man. Just think of that. And so I was able to sort of like, you know, give this very simple way of doing this, which totally would work for him. It doesn't take a lot of sighting of this or that or pointing towards some flowery, you know, scripture or something. A real, real world application of something. And in that moment, you know, whether or not he does it, I don't know, I feel like there was something wonderful that happened. It's just an idea of like, you know what, maybe this is going to help somebody, you know, deal with that level of suffering that they're experiencing every day by, you know, becoming more acquainted with who they are and what their mind is. And so that's why, if you're wanting a why, there's a lot of other great whys, but that's a pretty good one. And sometimes just out of the blue, that will happen. And that. That to me, is a good reason to take this class.
- [50:49]
David Nichtern
Duncan, thank you so much. It's, you know, always great to catch up and if you can come join us on the retreat, it'd be really great. We love being with people in three dimensions. It's.
- [51:03]
Duncan Trussell
Yes. I can't wait. I'm so excited. I'm trying not to think about it. I'm doing so many shows, but it's like this thing at the end of the TV shows. I'm so excited. Can't wait to see you in person. That's a beautiful spot too.
- [51:14]
David Nichtern
Yeah. And meanwhile, go see Duncan on the road. He's really working a lot and. And you know, you can see on his website where he is.
- [51:23]
Duncan Trussell
Kids eat organic, y'all. My kids eat a lot of organic yogurt, baby.
- [51:29]
David Nichtern
Okay.
- [51:30]
Duncan Trussell
Y'all are the best.
- [51:31]
David Nichtern
Okay, thanks, Duncan. And we'll continue. We'll continue on. See you soon. Call you tomorrow.
- [51:35]
Duncan Trussell
Bye.
- [51:36]
David Nichtern
Okay, good. So, you know, we always land in the same place in this conversation. It's. It's about the heart, really. When we talk about the bodhicitta, the awakened heart, that's really what this is about. But the heart is intelligent in Buddhism. It's not just a gloppy, gooey, like whatever kind of thing it has discernment the kind of intelligence. So thanking Duncan and rolling forward. We do have teacher training coming up so we wanted to let you know about that. Please feel free to stay with us. If I just will let you know that all this information will be in the recording get tomorrow. But here's the link for the teacher training program that's coming up and it's called 100 Hour Mindfulness Meditation Teacher Training. And I'm going to tell you more about the details of it and also that there's a special opportunity to get an early bird discount on it between now and next Tuesday. So that is a 500 discount if you register then. And so that's also in will be in the text any questions you have about any of that assistharmamoon.com and Renee will help you out. I also have taken on a a sort of very pleasant job for me which is anybody who's seriously interested in it but not sure I have time in my schedule to meet one to one with people for about 15 minutes each. I wish it could be longer. But if anybody wants to talk more about the program and you're seriously interested in it, I have a calendar link that Brett can put in there and you can schedule a session over the next week or so with me or also with Renee. A lot of people have come into it. We've gotten that chance to get to know each other a little bit first. So if you have any questions or you know, there's quite a few actual graduates here and our teaching staff is here. Don't have time to introduce everybody but please, please do check it out if you're on the fence. And the other thing is that the first part of the program, the very first weekend, which is March 21, you can take as a standalone overview kind of introduction. So if you have questions, I don't know this whole thing is right for me, you can taste the soup as we call it, come taste the sou and take the first weekend and then decide then if you want to continue on. So with that in mind, I just want to give us time for me to just quickly walk through the program and then answer any questions that we might have about it. And we're leaving the world of AI behind for the moment and talking very much in the human realm here. So I'm going to share with you a PowerPoint that I'll sort of quickly walk us through. And all of this is information's on dharmamoon.com and it will be a link will be in the email tomorrow. So if we could show that. That PowerPoint. Okay. And get the first slide up. Yeah. Okay. So this is our spring 2025 course. And it's not like the certification is a credential, but it is. It is a sort of note to self and note to others that you have completed this course. If you do, it's five weekend levels. Those are the dates again. Those are on the website where Saturday and Sunday, 10 to 5 Eastern Time. It's live, I'm there, our team is there, we're interacting live online. This is unusual. This is not the common thing of just dropping a bunch of videos and you guys go study it by yourselves. We're really making connection and learning how to talk to people. And we break into smaller groups and practice on each other. And a lot of emphasis on giving yourself good feedback, getting good feedback from your peers and from the teachers. That's the overview of the course next. The first weekend, which can be taken as a standalone weekend for you to try it out, is an overview of the Buddhist path. I call it the Tour of Buddha Land. So there's like a chance to just get oriented if you're not that familiar with it. All the different kinds of practice that there are and the different types of study, just getting oriented. So that's very worthwhile just by itself. If that's, you know, all you have the bandwidth for at this point, you could come and take that with us and then flip it later if you wanted to. Okay, that's the first level. The second level, we jump right into guiding groups, which is the main. Still the main forum. You know, I just taught at a yoga studio in New York last week. It's talking to a group of people how to meditate. And our job as a meditation teacher is not to confuse people further, not to bully them, not to give them our version of reality, but to give them a simple practice that they could understand, have clarity about, and actually do and actually reap some benefit from. So we talk about how to do that, how to do a good job, presenting whether you're going to be doing that, you know, for your friends and family, for people at work, whether you're going to be doing that for, you know, professional setting. We allocate all those different possibilities or whether you're doing just to get more clarity about your own practice. That's also a legitimate reason. Then in level three, we move into a slightly more nuanced area, which is providing personal instruction one to one, which is there's a lot of finesse Here of how to talk to an individual person, communicate in a way that's helpful to them without laying a trip on them, without crossing any boundaries of what that relationship is, being respectful of the teacher, student relationship, some awareness of, like, other issues that might come to bear, body issues, mental health issues, so that you are able to manage that process and clarify it. And also the notion of respecting the student's intelligence. It's. And it's their. It's their practice, it's their discovery that's going on. So there's a lot of space in that relationship when it's properly done. And there's some feeling of feeling that space with another person and knowing how to communicate without an agenda, which is an important part of it. And then in the Level 4, we had to give a dharma talk. So we haven't translated dharma like Karma into English. Dharma means the teachings Buddha. Dharma means the teachings of Buddha. So how do you communicate about that in an authentic way that acknowledges 2,600 years of brilliant history and transmission and also is completely fresh and current for you at this time to be able to communicate that to somebody? So that's how to give a proper presentation, a dharma talk. And then finally, in the level five, the fifth weekend, we to. We review what we've talked about. We talk about some of the boundaries, ethics, the proper way to create space and a container for teaching how to teach in a corporate or sports environment. Like mindfulness is everywhere these days. There are many, many possible places to apply the teaching certificate. And then also we talk about how to think of it as a livelihood if you want to. So that's interesting. Not many people are talking about that. Like this is as legitimate as far as we're concerned about being, as being a volleyball coach or a math teacher. You know, how could you say, I would like to offer this professionally, or as many people do, blend it with your existing livelihood. Maybe you're a yoga teacher, maybe you're a therapist. You know, maybe you're a healthcare worker, maybe you're a social worker. Maybe you work in prisons, maybe you work with children, maybe you work with old people. How would you incorporate this mindfulness meditation into that context skillfully? Then we have a heck of a good closing ceremony, which has been over this time, amazingly, and I really want to testify now, the community develops during these courses. Even though everybody's everywhere around the world, we literally have a global community, different time zones. Some people this English is their second language. Everything is in English. So that's. That's something that you know, we're going to work on, maybe AI can help with that, you know, how to, how to make it more accessible to other languages. Right now we're in English and, you know, we have a gathering of people. People are listening to each other. They're sharing feedback, they're sharing insights, they're sharing their journey, they're sharing energy and exchange with the teaching staff. And then at the end, we kind of celebrate that. And it's been just those Level Fives are the only part we don't record. So you have to be there for that. Otherwise we do record every, every weekend you're asked to be there live. If you have any problem with that, you can write to Renee. Assistantharmamoon.com Please do take advantage of Renee in terms of. If you have any questions about scheduling, pricing, those kind of things, we can work things out with you. So then after the level five, if you've completed the course, you know, fully, which includes the elements that you're looking at here, there's very modest exams, oral and written exam. I mean, oral examination. And it's not meant to be gotcha or anything like that. It's just like, did you do the work? And also during the time you're going to have a 20 minute, at least a day mindfulness meditation practice. So we don't want to train any unguided missiles. We want to ground our teaching into our practice. That's an important part for us. Okay. If you do finish the requirements, then you get a certification from Dharmamoon and Tibet House, which is the US Seat of the Dalai Lama. So after you complete that, wow, we've had over a thousand people complete this course in the last four or five years and many more before that in the 30 years before that. Our students are like all over the place teaching within classical context. One of our students, Eve Lewis, is the content director for Headspace. We have people who started sports training that are training thousands of athletes in terms of how to incorporate mindfulness. People are working with individuals, corporations, many yoga teachers, and also just the aspect of incorporating the flavor of mindfulness into everyday life. We could use this. I would like to see somebody teach our Congress and our leaders how to be more, leave more space. Is that possible without looking like they don't know what they're doing and actually listen more? So that's my personal dream. Like when I go to sleep, I dream about a world in which people actually are quiet and listening to each other and then say something really effective and meaningful. That's my pipe Dream people have had transformative experiences, but not like going to heaven or something like that. Realizing their grounded, kind of sane and open hearted existence. So I think we have a very good track record. Our students really speak for us in that regard. Moving on. Ah, that's myself. You know, you can read about my bio, but the, the. I've been doing this a long, long time. And I started in 1970, so studying with my teacher. And I think we had the job of transplanting the Tibetan Buddhist teachings into an American vernacular. That was our particular generation's role to play. And now we're doing what my son Ethan says. We're giving it over to people who can translate the translation. Can we make it really current? Can we make it fresh? Can we make it accessible to people that we know? So I'm very much involved with, I wrote the book Creativity, Spirituality and Making a Buck. I'm very much involved with the idea of mixing these practices with everyday life. That's my song, that's my jam. And so our, our, our community has that kind of flavor to it. Not so esoteric, but more. How do you, how do you incorporate this into everyday life? Then here's our. This says it all to me, frankly, these people's faces says it all to me. I've been working with all these people in this for anywhere from 3 to 15 years, 20 years. So this is kind of our, our gang, our, our group. And behind them there are many other behind the scenes people, people who are doing the programming. Beck, Rebecca D'Onofrio, who's our program director and has crafted the manuals that you'll get. There's a lot. This is a team sport. I always say Dharma Moon is a team sport. So all these people will be mentoring you individually during the program. You'll get one of them as your personal mentor. And we work very, very closely together. So very proud of this group of people then. Okay. Talk about making a buck to keep this show on the road. I can tell you we're not getting rich doing this. I'm not completely proud of that. But I'm also proud that we're not going out of business either. So we try to price it fairly, which is for the whole program, it's $2,495. And there's a payment plan you can pay out over four months that's very easy to come by and make four equal payments. You don't even have to tell us anything. You can just choose that option when you register and Brittany will put in the registration link. For the full, full program, then. Wait, there's more. For, as I mentioned earlier, there's a special discount, Early Bird Duncan discount for $500 off if you register between now and next Tuesday evening, which is the 18th. So anytime between now and then, you can get this discount, discounted price if you register for the full program. Okay, thank you. You're not sure you're on the fence. I love to talk to you. Renee likes to talk to you. We actually enjoy meeting people who are thinking about this. If you could just because time is limited, restrict this to people who actually want to talk about the teacher training program rather than just general hello, Although I love doing that, too. But not for this. There's a link there in the chat for a calendly session that you can sign up for. Is that. Is that link in the chat for the calendar session? Yes.
- [67:26]
D
Yes.
- [67:27]
David Nichtern
Okay. I'm not seeing it, which is why I'm asking, but okay. So all this will be. Is recorded with our talk today and you can watch it and you can get all that information I've downloaded now. You've been very patient, everybody. Thank you very much for A, coming and B, being patient. But we'd also like to give you a chance to jump in and if there's any questions you have about the program, be helpful if you could, you know, use the time for that particular purpose. And we'll also be looking in the chat, so, you know, Brittany has access to the chat, but if you have a question, you can either write it into the chat or you can raise your digital hand and one of us will call on you. At that point, you can unmute and we'll have a question. So if the questions could be succinct and on topic, it would be really good for everybody. But I'm looking forward to hearing what, what you're thinking about, so please feel free to jump in. Okay.
- [68:38]
D
It looks like I actually have one from the chat, David.
- [68:41]
David Nichtern
Okay. And then I see JSO has his hand up too, so we'll get him next.
- [68:45]
D
Okay, I know you touched on a little bit about this, but can you explain a little bit more of that community experience?
- [68:52]
David Nichtern
Yeah. Yeah. So during the training, I'm going to talk some like the way I am. A lot of times you're going to be talking and you're going to be breaking down into smaller groups in which people get to know each other quite well. It's very intimate in a way. There are proper boundaries or appropriate boundaries. It's respectful and it's related to what we're studying and practicing, but somehow. And we shift around. So somehow during the course of the three or four months, most people get to meet other people and exchange a sense of connection and appreciation. So the community is, I think, our special sauce, frankly, for dharmamu we were talking about earlier today. Not every teacher training program fosters a sense of community, and the community lasts. After we finish, there's a community forum. Renee is our community director. Can we highlight Renee for a minute so everybody can see her? This is our community director, Renee Fay. And you want to say a little bit about the ongoing, you know, what happens afterwards after they graduate? Oh, you're muted, Renee.
- [70:07]
E
How about now? Yeah, so like David said, we really kind of join in community along the way, and then afterwards, there's ongoing opportunities to gather as a large community. So we have now many, many, many hundreds of people who have graduated this training. And there's ongoing areas of support and continued education and community practice and things like that. So opportunities to teach with and from one and learn with and from one another, as well as kind of develop additional skills going forward. Yeah.
- [70:47]
David Nichtern
Thank you, Renee. And, you know, I. I'm just. I feel fortunate, you know, to have people like this who are willing to go on this journey together. You know, there is a sense of interdependence. That's a basic Buddhist premise, interdependence. It's sometimes it's said egolessness, but a better word for it is interdependence. And I think you'll see that that's really our secret sauce at damu. Not putting somebody forward who's like a know it all or any of that kind of thing. There's a feeling of carrying a tradition forward. So thank you so much, Renee.
- [71:25]
E
Thanks for chipping.
- [71:27]
David Nichtern
Yeah. And then the. All this is again in the email that you'll get tomorrow, so don't worry if you didn't catch some of the links. How about jso? Can we give JSO a chance to come up, unmute?
- [71:40]
F
Hello? Hello?
- [71:44]
David Nichtern
Yeah, can we find Jason?
- [71:47]
F
Hello. Hello?
- [71:51]
David Nichtern
There you go.
- [71:52]
F
Is it working now?
- [71:54]
David Nichtern
Yeah. Hi, nice to meet you.
- [71:56]
F
Nice to meet you, David. I saw it's a funny thing watching midnight gospel and then getting into all these practices. But I had a question because I've been practicing myself. I go to a meditation group of my own that is nearby me. So I've always felt a connection with that group. And it's been great work with sound bath meditation as well as certain practices into different forms of meditation, such as, like pineal gland Meditation and all those sorts of things. I just wanted to ask, what were your guys like, what was the focus of your teachings and your meditation? Body scanning. Meta. I was just sort of curious if you can get into that for me.
- [72:42]
David Nichtern
Yeah, so this particular training is a foundation of mindfulness training. And I'll explain a little bit more about what we mean by that. All the other practices, you know, kind of have a foundation. Like, if you're thinking of a house, what's the foundation is your ability to be present and pay attention to, you know, it's the art of attention. Right. So we work with that foundational practice. It's. It's actually the root of the whole tradition, and it just has three simple steps. Jay so it's interesting because you think, oh, this must be some complex thing, but it's just taking a good seat, right? Like, and you could do your body scan if you want to. Just feel like you're actually present in your body, and then bringing your attention to the feeling of the breath going in and out of the body so that you have a focal point, the kind of sense of focus and then just being aware of what arises in your mind and in your environment without trying to judge or manipulate it or repress it. So sometimes we get lost in thoughts. It's called mind wandering. And we notice that and we come back to the breath. So it's a very, very deceptively simple, you know, but it's, it's a great foundation for going forward and for training other people.
- [73:57]
F
I've been following sort of those teachings from a book that I got called in the Mind Illuminated, that has been helping my progress very steadily and, and giving me very diligent and, and solid confidence into the practice as I do it more. And I know, and it's even talked about that which has gotten me into a thought of the idea that more practice is less. And it's because the more you practice something that is good, it replaces what you had before that may have been like, hindering you or holding you back or you attach to it so much of it's, it's, it's a way of read, redesigning your perspective to the way things are in your mind and opens things up to being more at peace and having that sense of clarity. I think clarity is what we always need to strive for in a very, very chaotic sense in our heads, that we kind of put ourselves in our own dreams with our thoughts at times. As Alan Watts once said from his lecture, the Cosmic Drama, I mostly have.
- [75:11]
David Nichtern
Been following that's really, really well said. Thank you so much.
- [75:15]
F
Of course. I didn't mean to go.
- [75:17]
David Nichtern
No, it's good, it's good because that's, you know, in our teacher training, we'd say, wow, you just said something really great. Let it, let it, let it, let it sit for a minute.
- [75:28]
F
One of my teachers from my classes, like, has now been saying to me, like, I think now you're the new teacher. And it's always so funny like that, back and forth.
- [75:38]
David Nichtern
It's a baton pass, Jason. It always has been. And, you know, I hope you're able to join us because you're, you're on the right track. Well, I thank you so much. We've got to give somebody else a chance. All right. Okay. But, but we'll see you again. Okay, thank you. Anybody else, Brit?
- [76:02]
D
I have a couple in the chat.
- [76:05]
David Nichtern
Okay. Yeah, feel free. Raise your digital hand if you want to jump in live here. This is real time. But meanwhile, we. Some folks have put it into the chat. So what do you got?
- [76:14]
D
Yeah, it seems that there are so many different people teaching meditation with little or no training. Does that make, does the certification make a difference?
- [76:25]
David Nichtern
You know, for some reason. Here's what I thought of Britt. And we sometimes say, first thought, best thought. I kind of threw that at Duncan. When our conversation first thought, best thought, I thought of a driver education teacher who didn't know how to drive. Not good. You know, we're trying to give some basic foundation for this practice which is quite simple, but at the same time, that doesn't make it easy, and it doesn't make it that easy to communicate about it. So our whole course is directed towards becoming skillful, clear about it, and then skillful in communicating it. And I think that we go through point by point how to accomplish that. So I would say that in relation to that. Is there another one, Britt? Any others?
- [77:22]
D
I'm looking. And for those of you that don't know where you can raise your digital hand, you can go on the reactions tab at the bottom of your screen and you'll see the hand raising feature.
- [77:32]
David Nichtern
I see, I see. Bo. Let's go. For a living human being. Yeah. Bo has his hand up. Bo, you have to unmute and it will be good.
- [77:44]
D
Yes.
- [77:44]
David Nichtern
Can you find Bo?
- [77:46]
Duncan Trussell
Yes.
- [77:46]
David Nichtern
Yeah. Let's see if we can find you on the camera. Ah, there we go. Good, good, good teamwork there. So I'm located in southeast Texas. Where is the actual retreat? The, the thing, the live retreat that we mentioned? Yes, yes. And, and that's we'll put a link to that. That's April 30th to May 4th, I believe. And it's in Menla Institute, which is upstate New York. Okay.
- [78:11]
Duncan Trussell
Okay.
- [78:12]
David Nichtern
I'll be, I'll be in Kentucky around that time. So that'll be. Yeah, I'll be heading that direction. Okay. Come and join us. It's. I'm telling people it's going to fill up. Barely. You mentioned it earlier, but how much? What's the, what's the cost again? Now we got talking about two things. One is the teacher training program. Right. Which is online. That's what we're talking about here. And then the retreat. So if you want to look at the retreat, just go to dharmamoon.com and you'll see it there.
- [78:39]
Duncan Trussell
Okay.
- [78:39]
David Nichtern
And the teacher training program. The teacher Training program is $2,450 for the four month course and it's 500 off if you register in the next. And is that all virtual week? That is virtual. Just like what we're doing right now. And people are literally. You don't have to leave your home. I mean that's the obvious. And then the retreat, it costs. Maybe somebody could look that up for me. I don't have that number off the top of my head. Could you look it up? Yeah. And what is it?
- [79:12]
D
I said I will look it up and put it in the chat.
- [79:15]
David Nichtern
Thank you so much, Renee. I appreciate you, David. Thank you. Okay. Thank you so much, Bo. Nice to meet you. You too. Okay, we got some hands raised. Let's see, we've got a few minutes, maybe two more questions we could take. So we've got Jesse. Yeah, good. Thanks, Britt. Hey, you're mute.
- [79:45]
G
Unmute.
- [79:47]
David Nichtern
There you go. Here, you know.
- [79:49]
G
Hi, David. Longtime listener and I suppose a dunk height myself, but it was all just happenstance to come to this and so grateful that I attended. But I was wondering what, I suppose what practices make. Or so like just to preface, I'm new to meditation, but what practices would make someone more successful when coming to your course or.
- [80:21]
David Nichtern
Yeah, the best practice would become with an open mind and you know, and the ability to have the kind of communication that's not based on prefabricated ideas about what's supposed to happen, which is hard, you know, so. And it's further training and having that kind of mind and recognizing that part of our mind that is unbiased, unprogrammed, curious, gentle, compassionate, you know, remember that part of ourselves.
- [80:58]
G
Absolutely.
- [80:59]
David Nichtern
Yeah. We're cooking that up. We got that that's the maple syrup of the whole thing.
- [81:05]
G
I feel more in touch with that part of myself than ever. And like this explosion of like creativity and I don't know, mixed with this true inner peace, like just this kind of coalescence of the two.
- [81:21]
David Nichtern
Well, again, pretty good. Good time, Jesse, to lean into the practice. Yes, A good time. Because you, you got a beach head there, you're on the beachhead and you want to like, you know, stabilize. We talk about stabilizing that sensibility without, without grasping it. Okay. Yes. Okay. Nice to meet you. I hope we see you again and maybe just. Yeah, see you soon. And I guess this could be the last question and then I'll, I'll close up with any final comments. Do we have one more question?
- [81:56]
D
Michael?
- [82:00]
David Nichtern
Yeah.
- [82:03]
G
Know from your experience, having done it for so long.
- [82:07]
David Nichtern
Yeah.
- [82:08]
G
What your experience is, what are the effects? What are the benefits? Because I'm, I'm also pretty new to this a few years in, but yeah, I can feel the sort of real life effect that it has on my life. But I'd love to hear from your perspective after having done it for so long.
- [82:29]
David Nichtern
Yeah. Thank you. And of course, you know, every once in a while as practitioners, we do review. You know, there is, it's not bad. We don't want to all the time be like, oh, that was a good session. That was a bad session. You know, it's got to be a little bit more of a long arc. So I feel this practice, this mindfulness practice, mindfulness awareness, it's really a blend. I'm just going to say first thought it helped me get through the pandemic period. There was a lot of freak out energy, you know, a lot of things that make you nervous about the world and the continuity of things and your ability to do what you used to do. And like, for example, I used to travel all over the world teaching this stuff. And just with the mindfulness and with this, staying with the simple quality of present awareness training in that it can stabilize. It's called equanimity. It's the idea of a balance and equanimity. And not every high has to get you like, oh, I'm so, you know, yay, manic. And then not every low has to take you down to the rabbit hole of depression. So I think some kind of moderation of the ability to work with challenging situations. That's what I'm going to put on the record book. And also being curious, you know, not, not feeling like, oh, this is the answer. That's the Answer. But really enjoying the process of exploring though I would say those two things, equanimity and curiosity.
- [84:01]
G
Do you think that it's benefited your physical health as well?
- [84:05]
David Nichtern
Well, I have other things I play with for that. I study Tai chi and qigong and that's been very helpful for that part. But if the mind is not centered right in the body, you could, you could become a, you know, a super athlete and so forth. But you know, you might be suicidal, you know. So I think the idea of, of mind and body synchronized is a big part of this practice. Synchronizing mind. We, we say that. Synchronizing mind and body. So. Yeah. Are you an athlete?
- [84:36]
G
No.
- [84:37]
David Nichtern
Yeah. Well, I, I, we. Mindfulness of body is a big part of the mindfulness training. Just being aware of your physicality. But we know that it's impermanent too, right? We know.
- [84:48]
G
Yeah.
- [84:48]
David Nichtern
So it can't be the final refuge as far as a good Buddhist is concerned. You know that this house is not the final refuge. But you want to take good care of it.
- [84:57]
G
Yeah, it's like I just love to walk a lot.
- [85:02]
David Nichtern
Beautiful. That's a great exit. Hope you're able to join us, Michael. And thank you for your question. At this point, I got to wrap it up. It's exactly 7:30 Eastern Time, so I don't know what time it is where all of you are. I want to thank our team, Brittany, for handling the slides there and Renee and all the rest of our teachers who are here. You will get to meet them when you come to the orientation session on March 21. Again, take advantage of the discount. If you're thinking of it, take advantage of the calendly sessions. Book yourself one if you want to ask some more questions about it with myself or Renee. And I'm going to close with a little dedication that we, that we add. This is a very traditional thing and the idea is that we're actually doing this for ourselves, but we're also doing it for all the people we love and, and care about. So I'm just going to chant it and you, you can just listen this time if you like. May all beings be happy. May all beings be free from suffering. May all beings experience joy and the happiness of others. May all beings remain in equanimity, free from attachment aversion and ignorance. Thank you everybody. Have a great evening. Morning wherever you are, and we'll see you soon.
- [86:26]
C
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