713: David Nichtern

Summary

DUNCAN TRUSSELL FAMILY HOUR
Episode 713: David Nichtern
Release Date: September 19, 2025

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Overview

In this deeply topical and heartfelt episode, Duncan Trussell welcomes his longtime meditation teacher and friend, David Nichtern, to help process the collective trauma and confusion after the publicized political assassination of Charlie Kirk. The discussion leans on Buddhist principles to explore the roots of suffering, societal aggression, othering, and the transformative possibilities of personal meditation. Together, they grapple with the human challenges of living compassionately amid cultural upheaval, culminating in a guided meditation session.

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Main Themes

• Collective Suffering and Response to Atrocity
  Processing the emotional and social aftermath of a traumatic global event.
• Buddhist Perspectives on Aggression & Ignorance
  Insight into the roots of suffering, the cycle of conning, attacking, and canceling.
• The Power of Non-Othering and Interdependence
  Exploring the seduction of “othering” and the challenge of recognizing basic goodness.
• Navigating Anger and Activism
  The difference between skillful action and reactive aggression.
• Practical Meditation as Social Medicine
  The grounding potential of contemplative practice in turbulent times.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Processing Collective Shock and Grief (00:00–08:00)

• Duncan introduces David in the wake of Kirk’s assassination, highlighting the emotional flood: revulsion, anger, confusion, and fear.
• Duncan notes the secondary trauma of witnessing not just horror, but “gleeful rejoicing” and rationalization of violence.
  • “You shield your heart from the reality that a human just got brutally murdered in front of a bunch of college kids and the whole planet…” (A, 03:18)
• They liken this moment to past cultural shocks (e.g., Manson murders, Kent State, Kennedy assassination).

The Buddhist Lens: Suffering’s Root and Mechanisms (08:09–13:10)

• David: “From a Buddhist point of view…the root cause of suffering is ignorance…profound ignorance, not seeing clearly, not understanding the totality of what’s happening.” (B, 09:09)
• He outlines three forms of “defense” in the human response to suffering:
  • Conning: Magnetizing others to your view.
  • Attacking: Aggression against others.
  • Canceling: Ignoring or erasing other perspectives.
  • “If you use those three words and say, well, how much of that is going on?” (B, 10:57)
• Pain beneath these mechanisms: connection and heartbreak.

The Seduction of Othering and Its Cost (13:11–16:00)

• David reframes suffering as the result of “othering”:
  • “From one perspective…you’re not understanding non-dual awareness that it’s all interdependent. In simpler language—you’re othering.” (B, 13:35)
• Duncan explores the pain and difficulty in recognizing interdependence:
  • “If I…let myself feel the thing itself, I am not going to be able to…that’s going to hurt, that’s not going to feel good.” (A, 15:17)
• David: “The road to compassion has to go through there.” (B, 15:59)

Anger, Aggression, and Social Engagement (19:31–26:00)

• Discussion on misusing spiritual and religious principles to “other”:
  • “Othering in the name of non-othering…You use these great religious spiritual traditions and you other from that premise.” (B, 19:32)
• On balancing universal compassion with taking real-life stands:
  • “You have to be willing to act. You…have to be willing to say what you think or feel about something. But if that’s coming from one of those three places, you’re probably…shooting yourself in the foot.” (B, 25:34)

Basic Goodness and the Temptation of Darkness (30:07–38:00)

• David shares Chogyam Trungpa’s concept of Basic Goodness: an inherent wholesomeness underlying all experience.
• He recounts a retreat story: “What about Hitler?”—the ever-present test of the basic goodness principle.
  • “Can we reserve some space for unadulterated dark forces? Evil?” (B, 31:19)
• Nichtern reminds us that even monumental evil is a distortion of basic drives, not a wholly separate force.

The Personal Limits of Spiritual Tolerance (35:22–39:25)

• Duncan confesses how quickly his spiritual practice is eclipsed by fear and anger when real danger threatens those he loves.
  • “In a blink…all of it just out…No, vengeance is mine, saith the Lord.” (A, 36:09)
• David: “We are flickering between these three things of conning, attacking, and canceling. That’s our operating system for most of what we do in this life.” (B, 38:02)
• Conversely, these drives could be transmuted: conning as connection, attacking as clarity, canceling as spaciousness.

Power and Manipulation—Modern Autocracy (42:11–46:00)

• The danger that even profound insight into human psychology can be cynically weaponized—Hitler’s “low level” cosmic monster compared to existential threats now compounded by technology and AI.
  • “Understanding that we’re talking about interconnectedness…can be manipulated by somebody who has got some intelligence about the operating system…” (B, 44:33)
• Modern panopticon, culture of surveillance and digital aggression discussed.

The Warrior Spirit: Fierceness Without Anger (47:42–51:13)

• David: “Is it possible to be a warrior without anger?” (B, 47:49)
  • “The minute you lose that, your journey as a spiritual warrior…has been dented. Seriously.” (B, 48:23)
• Clear, calm engagement trumps rage-fueled action, paralleling elite UFC fighters’ composure and discipline.

Sharpening the Sword—Practical Guidance for Turbulent Times (56:09–61:03)

• Duncan pushes for concrete tools for “kids contending with insane cultural forces.”
• David: “In the protective principle, you don’t put down the sword…The sword is the prajna, the discernment. Sharpen it.” (B, 60:03)
• “If people don’t have a personal practice or cultivation, everything we’re talking about becomes very theoretical.” (B, 60:40)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On societal reaction to atrocity:
  “Regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum, I think one universal is, it’s never a bad thing to de-escalate.” (A, 04:28)
• On the Buddhist triad of suffering:
  “Conning, attacking, and canceling. If you use those three words and say, well, how much of that is going on?” (B, 10:57)
• On humbling complexity:
  “As long as everybody’s clear…we have an eye-to-eye level conversation…You can say it honestly from your own experience.” (B, 22:11)
• On practical compassion:
  “The trick is somehow to marry…to get married. And we should keep in mind the person we love the most…can become our mortal enemy.” (B, 37:52)
• Turning defense mechanisms into tools:
  “What if attacking became clarifying…the anger…produces clarity and penetration? What if canceling just turned into a more spacious approach towards allowing different perspectives?” (B, 38:16)
• On trauma and the walls we build:
  “Build a wall, build a wall…I managed to numb it, numb it down. So what you’re inviting…is basically inviting a lot of people who have experienced a lot of pain to just deconstruct this wall…” (A, 54:21)
• On the “sword” of clarity:
  “The sword is the prajna, the discernment. So you can train those young people…to become sharper, not duller.” (B, 60:17)
• On meditation as activism:
  “Boredom is the antidote for hyperactivity…We’re cranked up…so nothing seems to be the antidote.” (B, 77:47)
• On opening compassion even for irritants:
  “Start by taking somebody who irritates you a little bit and not losing your cookie…one small step for mankind.” (B, 83:02)

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Guided Meditation (65:10–73:47)

• David leads a 5-minute breath-awareness meditation, emphasizing embodiment, mindful awareness, and label/release (“thinking”) technique.
  • “Just see what it feels like to be you without any other interactions…Make peace or friends with it and then re-engage.” (B, 73:51)
• Duncan shares the impact and accessibility of the practice, both during crisis and daily life.

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Practical Takeaways

• Meditation and mindfulness are presented not as escapism, but as critical tools for emotional first aid and social skillfulness amidst chaos.
• The repetition and sharpness of “conning, attacking, and canceling” in modern discourse should be replaced with connecting, clarifying, and making space.
• Wisdom traditions offer tools—like basic goodness and non-othering—that can be cultivated individually, in small groups, and, ideally, society-wide.

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Resource Mentions

• Dharma Moon: David Nichtern’s platform for meditation teacher training and community events (dharmamoon.com).
• Upcoming Event: Free online session for mindfulness and meditation teacher training (September 23rd).

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Timestamps of Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------------|------------| | Processing collective trauma | 00:00–08:00| | Buddhist diagnosis: ignorance & suffering| 08:09–13:10| | Othering and pain | 13:11–16:00| | Non-bypass action: engagement vs. bypass| 25:13–26:02| | “What about Hitler?” and basic goodness | 31:19–34:08| | Warrior without anger | 47:49–48:38| | Sharpening the sword (protective clarity)| 60:09–61:03| | Guided meditation session | 65:10–73:47| | Integration, activism, and humor | 76:13–83:15|

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Tone & Closing Thoughts

Duncan and David approach the contentious material with humor, humility, and candor, never shying from the troubling realities nor from a sense of hope. They gently remind the listener that, while compassion starts with the internal work of “benching oneself” daily, its ripples can and must extend out—to family, neighbors, communities, and ultimately the wider world. Even if world peace isn’t achieved overnight, not losing your “cookie” with the next irritating person is a worthy, revolutionary step.

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“If people don’t have a personal practice or cultivation, everything we’re talking about becomes very theoretical.”
—David Nichtern (60:40)

“Boredom is the antidote for hyperactivity.”
—David Nichtern (77:47)

“Start by taking somebody who irritates you a little bit and not losing your cookie…That would be like one small step for mankind.”
—David Nichtern (83:02)

“Thank you, David. You are just the best.”
—Duncan Trussell (85:55)

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome, friends. You're listening to the dtfh, and if you're somebody who watches the news, you're probably aware we all just had to witness a horrific political assassination. And I realize whoever the guest is this week has got to be someone who can contribute in some way to cooling things off a little bit, giving us a little bit of direction things. It was just so horrible. I think many of us are shook. And so with us today is my meditation teacher, David Nichtern. He's amazing. He's written a ton of books and, you know, whenever I do his intros, it's kind of sloppy. I'm going to give him the credit he deserves. He's a senior Buddhist teacher who's been practicing and teaching meditation for over 40 years. He was one of the initial American students of renowned Tibetan meditation master Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche and studied closely with him soon after his arrival in the United States in 1970. David is the author of the critically acclaimed books Awakening from the Daydream, Reimagining the Buddha's Wheel of Life, and Creativity. That is such a good book, by the way. Spirituality and Making a Buck. He mentors individual students both in person and online and leads meditation teacher training programs around the world via his Dharma Moon Platform. Oh, and he's also an incredible musician who's recorded and played with Stevie Wonder, Jerry Garcia, Lana Del Rey, Maria Muldar, Paul Simon, and many others. And on Tuesday, September 23rd, join David for a free live online event exploring the profound practices of mindfulness and the journey of becoming a meditation teacher. Links are going to be down there. And now, everybody. David Nichturn. David, it's always good to see you. Welcome back.

[B]

Yeah, you too. I miss you.

[A]

I miss you, too. And you know, you were the first person that came to mind after this, the horrific event of last week. Everybody knows what happened. The assassination of Charlie Kirk, public execution. And who do you have on your podcast when globally people are wrestling with what does this mean? Why did it happen? What do I do with the video? If most people, they didn't take it offline. It happened so quickly and so publicly. It was live streamed. And so the video was disseminated instantaneously all over the place. And so in the middle of a podcast, I was doing my producer's like, you need to call Aaron. And, you know, I was freaked out because if that happens, you know, usually it means like, something happened to the kids or something. But no, she had just seen that video and was inconsolable and and so the. You know, I have. It's probably most people, I had all the reactions to it, you know, revulsion, anger, confusion, fear. And then, of course, the event was followed by the much amplified, not outpouring of, like, this is horrible, but maybe an unexpected outpouring of gleeful rejoicing over an assassination. Or if not so much a gleeful rejoicing. Charlie Kirk was assassinated, but he did say divisive things, which is another way of saying kind of brought it on himself. And so though that isn't a gleeful victory dance that some people were doing, it's still embedded in it is aggression. And what I would say is an attempt to numb or to make sense or to not have to feel it. And that's what I realized is like, oh, I know what they're doing, because I've done this by going nihilist and celebrating it or by finding some way to justify it. You shield your heart from the reality that a human just got brutally murdered in front of a bunch of college kids and the whole planet, regardless of any other thing, you peel away all the layers, and what you're seeing is an atrocity. And so who do you bring on to help the confusion in your own heart and also maybe to help cool things down out there in the world, regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum, I think one universal is, it's never a bad thing to de escalate. It's never a bad thing to de escalate potential violence. And so you're the first person that came to mind to who, wow. Well, Kanye west, honestly, was the first person.

[B]

And there it is, suddenly free from fixed mind. Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you for thinking of me. And, you know, we're obviously sharing some kind of quest for a wholesome way of. Of going about living in this world at this time, you know, so my contemplation when. When I got kind of a feeling of like, talking to you about this was there are different perspectives and angles that people are coming at this from, clearly. Right. And usually that's okay. You know, like that over dinner, you could talk about, you know, something that happened, and people have different points of view, but this is really getting to the heart or core of some very deep feelings for many.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So I guess for me, it just. I started thinking about, well, what if you go down a level? We're talking about suffering.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And confusion. You said confusion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's a big Buddhist topic. You know, that's the air Buddhist topic is what is the root Cause of the suffering.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so I. I can't help but I did that. I did a deep dive into that rather than trying to figure out my perspective in relation to this event, which unfortunately is part of the history of our species.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Eons.

[A]

Right.

[B]

These things come and go regularly. Yeah. And at my age is, you know, you can think back and think of a lot of things that had this imprint.

[A]

Kennedy assassination. Oh, it goes the Manson murders.

[B]

The.

[A]

You know, you could go through these, like, massive cultural moments of violence that sent shockwaves of fear through the country. I mean, really, there is a real parallel between this and the Manson murders because there was a political.

[B]

What.

[A]

What was being blown up in the press is a political motivation. Like, who are these people? Cultists? Or like, what, they're killing rich people now? Like, ah. And everyone got freaked out and scared. And so. And I don't mean again, I do want to take it to the deeper level, but I can't even. I'm sure you've seen so many moments like this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What was the shooting at this. In Ohio State. The protester got shot. Four protesters got shot in the anti Vietnam protest. Like, so many moments you've seen, you.

[B]

Can zoom out and you can also zoom into your own personal life and recalibrate experiences that we each have had.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That are traumatizing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And inexplicably penetrating and overwhelming. And yet, you know, we're trying to make some sense out of it, as you said. So in that spirit, I think I, like just for a minute, not. Not to, you know, bypass any specific orientation somebody might have. But if you look at the root cause of suffering from a Buddhist point of view, just representing that for a second, it is ignorance is the root cause.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's interesting. It's profound ignorance, you know, ignorance as to the nature of things. Not just like me ignoring you or trying to ignore a different person's point of view. It's not seeing clearly and it's not understanding the totality of what's happening.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which goes through old age, sickness, death, suffering, reviving the person. Like in the hell realms, in the Buddhist iconography, beings are being tortured and then. And then they're having hot molten lead poured down their throats and then they're being revived. They die, and then they're being revived again. So this idea of this ongoing quality of ignoring, what are we ignoring? And it is ignoring the quality of interdependence, that's what we ignore.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We don't see the connectivity of the whole Situation. We just have pulled out and created a unique and singular perspective which substantiates and supports our own sense of existence, or ego, whatever you want to call that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then we support that with these three root, clacious, or obstructions, which is grasping. We grasp at something, we attack, We. We reject, we push away, and we ignore at a more superficial level by just. So I gave those kind of modern words, the passion is conning. We're conning everybody.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We want to pull them into our perspective. We want to magnetize them, but into our unique and singular perspective.

[A]

That's the same.

[B]

We don't. Right. Conning. Yeah, magnetizing. The. The. The second one is aggression. But, like, we attack.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, there's a lot of attack energy going on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the third one, which is ignorance, I called canceling.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You see, so conning, attacking, and canceling. If you use those three words and say, well, how much of that is going on?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And as you said, what's underneath it is some kind of pain.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And. And the pain is that of connection. Somehow your heart is broken.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, so I would look for that moment of heartbreak and, you know, allow it to penetrate without strategizing a response. That's what I would recommend to anybody.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Let me just let it break.

[A]

Let me take the voice of the people posting, like, gleeful videos for a moment.

[B]

Yeah. It's a shame. It's really a shame.

[A]

Doesn't hurt my heart at all. Why didn't you weep for the. Why aren't you weeping for the Palestinians? Why aren't you weeping for the. This. This. This is who you're upset about? My heart is not going to break for a Nazi now. This is. No, by the way, not my perspective. Someone's gonna cut just that part out and be like, look at what he did. Not my perspective at all. I don't think that. But this is sort of what I've gathered, and it's reductionist because I don't have enough time to go through the litany of charges that some people seem to think this makes a dad deserve the death penalty in the most horrific way. But that is the sort of, you know, rough sketch, I guess you could say, of what. What you are, I think, astutely calling ignorance.

[B]

Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, and of course, we can go through as kind of scientists and students of human nature, the different strategic formations that people tend to form.

[A]

Right.

[B]

To keep their view intact.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Keep their sense of self intact.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

So. So. And that's, that's not bad. That's kind of like sociology or the psychological thing. And you're not really like going from the personal heartbreak perspective. You're going from the kind of clarity of mind and seeing, oh, this person's doing this, that person's doing that. So the commonality is. And this is where like I guess I tended to pull it towards common language is othering.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's really. If you looked at the root cause of suffering from one perspective in a high tech Buddhist language, we'd say it's. You're not understanding non dual awareness that it's all interdependent.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Everything that's happening is independent but in a simpler language you're othering.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You're creating self and other.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that is the. Not only is that the cause of temporal suffering, you know, in one particular incident, but that's pervasive. How these realms are pervaded by suffering is othering.

[A]

Okay, now I completely.

[B]

So seductive too, isn't it?

[A]

Very seductive. And here's where it gets interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

One would think that non othering that recognizing the interconnected nature of everything, one would think that that recognition of the sort of interconnected tapestry that we're all part of would be more painful. I think many people think. No, no, no, no. If I for a moment scrub away all of my notions regarding why and just let myself feel the thing itself, I am not going to be able to. Not only is that number one, from certain ideologies, you shouldn't do that. That's profane to even do that. But from another perspective, a deeper perspective, that's going to hurt, that's not going to feel good. You don't get to go numb at that point. And a lot of people associate what you're inviting us to do as not a path out of suffering, but the road right into suffering land, which is a new part of Disney that they just added pre existing.

[B]

Yeah, well it, it seems to be historically and you know, it seems to be the road to compassion has to go through there.

[A]

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[B]

Over eons.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't find the great compassionate beings who have not gone through the valley of experiencing suffering properly, thoroughly, fully, non, dually. And what's interesting is the othering in the name of. I would say, you know, I'm going up in the skybox for a minute and. But we'll come, we'll bring it down. Othering in the name of non othering, which is you use these great religious spiritual traditions and you other from that premise. So I can't. I'm not an expert in Christianity, which seems to be a thread going through this whole situation, but the idea that you would other people in the name of somebody who clearly took on the suffering of others as a regular diet, well, you know, am I getting that right about Jesus Christ?

[A]

I come not to bring peace, but with an ax. I will separate brother from brother. He did not just say that. And it's a miss. It's a, it's a. From my understanding that is there is the sort of hippie Jesus, you know what I mean? And hippie Jesus is there. Hippie Jesus is definitely there. Love everyone, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And then there's like, I don't know what you would call it, like dark Jesus. And that Jesus is also saying, you know, I'm going to show you with my own life what happens if you tell the truth. And then we all know how the story ends. Spoiler alert. They tortured and killed him. And then within that there is no like. But you're going to be fine. Yeah, but rather there's. And if you follow me, you can expect the same shit. And so there within that you have Christianity and then you have the interpretations of Christianity which show up in a lot of different ways, which create the sometimes justified critique of the thing because it's like someone isn't looking into the thing itself. I know you don't want to get into a Christian theological discussion right now.

[B]

Well, because I'm so unqualified to do it.

[A]

Me too, by the way. Me too. But boy, that never stopped me from talking about anything.

[B]

Well, and, and it's fair in a way, as long as everybody's clear about the fact that one itself is not an expert witness. And we're not calling in expert witnesses. We have any human eye to eye level conversation. So as you know, just the tradition I come from is, is. Doesn't posit that Buddha is an expert witness or that oneself is an expert witness about that. Expert witness.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So you can't really talk about something unless you chewed on it a bit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you can say it honestly from your own experience.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's called not non theism. That's the only thing I'm trained in and have any business talking about.

[A]

And that's where we should, that's where we should stay. Because really, just in this back and forth that just happened, you can see how quickly the mind wants to evade the simplicity in what you're saying. Very quickly you want to run off into some other place or you want to complexify what you just said, make it, qualify it, make it something that you could spend a lot of time thinking about and writing in your journal about and maybe giving lectures on the complex. But what you're saying, and to get back to this central point, the root of suffering is ignorance. What you're saying is if you are, if you are suffering right now, sure, you can ascribe that suffering to the most recent political assassination. You can ascribe that suffering to socioeconomics. You can ascribe that suffering to classism, capitalism, leftism, conservatism, homophobia, all the things. You can ascribe that to those. Or you could recognize what you're looking at. There is a capillary system all connected to a central heart of suffering. And before you even get into the conversation of how do we fix those things, let's get to why those things. And this is because we are ignoring reality as it is. Is that a fair synopsis?

[B]

Yes. And to take, to keep it really simple and earthy, the it, I don't think it would take a genius, but it would take a certain innocence to understand the quality of interdependence as, as an outcome of assessing, studying the situation. Everything is connected. And our attempt to disconnect from something always creates, you know, those three things. We, we end up conning somebody to pull them into our individual perspective. We end up attacking somebody else or canceling whole groups of, of people because we just don't want them to even have a opinion.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So the flip side, and the reason that it's sort of, let's say, challenging for me as a, as a public teacher sometimes, is not to confuse that with spiritual bypassing, that you have a view now that everything's interdependent and you all, both sides are equal and all this kind of stuff. And you, you don't have skill in the relative situation.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You Skillfully act within the relative situation. So somehow that's the hat trick that we dance, is that you have to, as an individual in a challenging time, be willing and ready to take stands. You have to. You have to be willing to act. You have to be willing to say what you think or feel about something. But if that's coming from one of those three places, you're probably, you know, shooting yourself in the foot, maybe.

[A]

Here's something that popped into my head as you're talking. Let's say that you actually do have a unifying message, and it does happen. People were blessed on this planet by people like the Buddha show up. People who are great speakers, people who figure out a way when it just seems impossible to bring everyone together again to remind everyone of this sort of central, shared humanity. And when people like that come along and they say things in just the right way, it creates cultural ripples that have a cooling effect instead of an effect that amplifies whatever the particular moment of fear and aggression and violence is. Now, let's imagine you're this person, unfortunately, tuberculosis. You are some kind of contagious illness. And so you go to give your lecture thinking, I'm just not going to talk about this disease that I have inside because my message is important, Contaminating the entire audience with some kind of plague which they then spread, even though they might walk away thinking, yes, we are all the same person. Why am I coughing blood right now? What's happening? So whatever the particular message is, which I think another commonality, if you look across the board, like if you remove the talking points and look at the central, the nucleus of. What do the sides have in common? They want a harmonious world. They want a better world. There's this shared desire and belief that the world could be better and how we get to that better world. Polar opposites, but in common. A sense that the world is not so good right now. In a sense that there is a way to make the world better. I don't think you can argue with that. There is a legitimate shared interest there, which is paradoxical if you look at how divided things are. But all that being said, if you aren't dealing. I know, like, whenever I sit down and I'm trying to do a podcast and I do want to say some very nice thing. I want things to be better.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then I look into myself, like, the way I feel right now, it's a gumbo of anger, confusion, shit, nervousness, fear, uneasiness, exhaustion. You know what I mean? Like, the thing that you're talking about the fundamental central issue. I have not truly dealt with that. And so no matter what I say, mixed in with that paint is going to be some kind of darkness. But then what, David? We just don't talk until we're enlightened?

[B]

No. We go a little with first thought, best thought, as we always do, to kind of like refresh the screen, you know, to. To. To come up with a little bit of a, you know, confusion also tends to dig in and kind of, you know, like a tick. It kind of gets its.

[A]

Its head in there sucking.

[B]

Sucking blood. So to get some freshness of take. So I thought, while you're talking about that, you know, in. In my teacher Trunk Rinpoche's you know, presentation of Shambhala teachings, which were an attempt to do what you're exactly. You're saying, create a kind of, like, updraft in the. In the integrity and the dignity and the kind of quality of the human experience. Get to get the sort of higher road going on. He. He postulated this thing that freaked people out at the time completely called basic goodness.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's still. People go, no, no, no, no, no, no. There's no such thing as that because, you know, people are good, people are bad, there's evil in the world, there's dark forces. And he was saying that all of it is subsumed under this banner of basic goodness, which is kind of like a gigantic attempt at refreshing the whole system.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I used to have. Give it. Have to give a talk, you know, and explain this concept to people. And one time I did it with my son Ethan. And we co. Led this. This weekend, at the end of the first night, we had sort of made a nice, glowing case for this possibility at least that, you know, there is some kind of fundamental wholesomeness in the human race that can be uncovered, that can be cultivated. And we. I said, okay, that's all we have time for tonight. There was a guy in the back of the room, you know, with his hand up, and I knew we should leave it alone. Ethan said, you know, okay, we have one more question there. And you can guess what guy said. I mean, it doesn't take a genius to figure it out. Yeah, can you get. He goes, well, what about Hitler?

[A]

Fucking Hitler, man.

[B]

And in that context, you know, what the person's saying is, can we reserve some space for unadulterated dark forces? Evil. That. So there's now a battle between goodness and evil, and that allows you to continue to have a sense of non Integration, actually.

[A]

Okay, that brings to mind this incredible.

[B]

That's tricky. Let me just finish that one thought.

[A]

Sorry, I thought you were done.

[B]

Yeah, no, it's okay. But, but so of course there's dark forces and confusion. And those, by the way, are talked about quite extensively in those teachings. It's not. It's not a Pollyanna. It's not New Age. There's some kind of acknowledgment that people are confused, that they mistake, you know, an apple for a tornado. You know what I mean? All kinds of things like that. But the notion that there might be a way to tilt one's own experience towards the recognition of some kind of underlying wholesomeness or interdependence that is recognized as not fear based on, you know, but that is love based actually, that you actually are not afraid of being connected to everything around you. And. And so we can, in my personal view, cultivate that at an individual level, at least. For sure you can do that. A small group level, for sure you can do that. A societal level. Okay, you know, my hat's off to anybody who can pull that off. But it has been done. They say, well, okay, so can influence society.

[A]

Societal level. Let's pin that as theoretical. Black belt, black belt, black belt. Let's pin that as black belt. And maybe, at least from my own subjective experience, highly theoretical. Now, that being said, one of Trump is lectures that I will watch from time to time as a screen refresh, as you said, is him talking about, I think it's called basic goodness and harmony. And remember, he talks about going to that Harmony conference. I went to a Harmony conference in India. And after the Harmony conference was over, nothing really seemed to have changed with anybody other than they could say that they went to the Harmony conference. And. But then he goes into what you're talking about, which is this quality in reality that is fundamentally good. Basic goodness, natural, earthy. He has a.

[B]

And even primordial. Not based on like wishful thinking or any of that kind of stuff. It is in the fabric. So that's food for thought. Or as we say, what comes to mind is food for non thought.

[A]

This happened some time ago. A man is. There's like a lunatic on a subway, tries to protect people. The lunatic has stabbed him. He's bleeding out on the subway. He passed away. And as he's dying, he tells one of the people who's just trying to tend to him, I love everyone on this train now I feel like in that moment he saw it. What you're talking about because that person who stabbed him, I think, was probably on the train, too. And in that moment, he transcended the complexity of the mind stuff. And in that moment, he connected to that reality that sometimes people connect to when they're dying, that sometimes that sadly. Or the children seem to be naturally connected to before the middle part happens.

[B]

Yeah. It's the part between birth and death we have to deal with.

[A]

Listen, you're just gonna have to deal with the part between life and death. After that, everything. It's great. It's fine.

[B]

Before and after death is easy.

[A]

And so. But I do think that I can plug into the basic goodness thing subjectively and in my neighborhood and when I go for a walk and even when I step on dog shit all over my driveways, unfortunately, there's a. What I'm saying is, even in tumultuous moments, sometimes I can see through them into. This is good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then where I realized, like, oh, well, I guess this is all bullshit, is when something like this happens, and it's like I've been wearing a backpack filled with spiritual aphorisms that I happily throw off, that I happily am like, fuck all that. No, vengeance is mine, saith the Lord. There must be punishment, revenge, retribution. If we don't do something now, oh, we're all done for. Forever. We must attack. Fight back. It's over, man. You can't let this keep happening. Open up the camp. Send it down. Let's wear my boots to polish. It's time to f. And it's scary how quickly that happens. It happens in a blink. In a blink. All of it just out. All the moments where I'm looking at my children and thinking, my God, I love you so much. And then I think, everybody used to be like this. Everybody used to be this adorable, sweet kid who could. Like the way they run when they're toddlers, this clumsy way that they run, or the way that they dance. Beautiful. Perfect. Everyone was like that. Everyone was, is this inside? And then this shit happens. And it's like, I must protect my family.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So the macro's harder for me.

[B]

So, yeah, the trick. And I didn't know we'd be talking about this, but I never know what we're gonna be talking about. So that's equally okay. And it is in the wind right now for the time being. The trick is somehow to marry is to get married.

[A]

Another wife, you're saying Mary. Okay.

[B]

And we should keep in mind the person we love the most using that analogy can become our mortal enemy.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

So it's us. The point is that we are flickering between these three things of conning, attacking, and canceling.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's our operating system for most of what we do in this life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I also, then I said, well, what would happen? And this is still theoretical. We're going to bring it all the way down. What if we flip that script and conning became the basis for affection and connection? What if attacking became clarifying the situation so that there's some real use for the anger because it produces clarity and penetration into things that might need to change? And what if canceling just turned into kind of more spacious approach towards allowing different perspectives somehow to have space rather than you have to attack immediately or con immediately?

[A]

Well, what about Hitler?

[B]

Yeah, well, Hitler. And I'm Jewish, you know, so this is a big deal for me personally. And when I see people being anti Semitic, it hurts me. It's, it's. And I go like, what? You know, this is, this is a twist. So.

[A]

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[B]

You know, Hitler to me is represents. Okay. And I want to put this in a context, which is there is a teaching that Trungkara Rinpoche gave us about spiritual acuity, really advanced acuity, yogic level of cities and powers being misused and abused by an adept. And this is. There was a model for this was which was called Rudra. This is not the Rudra from the Hindu tradition. He was a tantric teacher and he explored reality like he thought his teacher was telling him what to do. And he, you know, he went and he had sex and he had businesses. And he kind of operated in the phenomenal world very, you know, experimentally. He came back and his teacher said, I'm afraid you misunderstood my instructions how to engage reality on its own terms. Yeah, that's what the instruction was. And he got so pissed that he killed his teacher. So this is a primal story, like a kind of archival retrieval story. And at that point, because he had some understanding of how reality works, he became very powerful and became like a world, you know, a tyrant, an autocrat. So if you look at the autocrats in our world right now, they do have some understanding how reality works.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

They're not just stupid idiots.

[A]

And now they've got the backing of their super intelligent AIs to also guide them. And so, like, they do have some kind of ma. They don't have a, like, imp that follows them around and helps them with their magical powers. They've got like a super intelligence trained on all humanity that can instantaneously use weird algorithms, algorithms to let them know what's the best way to move the.

[B]

Needle here and immortality. If you overheard that hot mic moment, right, they are going to live to be 150. But from a Dallas point of view, that's you're still a kid, you know, I mean, so the, the point is, is that these. Understanding that we're talking about interconnectedness and also how the mind works, for example, and how people tend to go into attack mode or con mode or canceling mode and how that can be manipulated by somebody who is, you know, got some intelligence about the operating system that. That is worth noting that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, that that capacity, if we engage sort of superior understanding, it can still be misused to the last. Down to the last second.

[A]

I gotcha like.

[B]

So here's the thing. Doug and I just finished this one that when we asked Rinpoche about Hitler, he said, well, that's a very low level of this principle.

[A]

Jesus.

[B]

Because he's a cosmic monster, he could take over galaxies. This kind of level of egotism and, and mix. And then talk about Mao. And he said Mao is a little more sophisticated because Mao used kind of, you know, Taoist Buddhist psychology. You know, he and. And arguably created a more. And he survived it, for one thing.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

Hitler did not. And then so there's levels of this. So it was interesting to think of Hitler as. That's not even as big as the phenomenon of egomania gone wild. It can get bit worse than that.

[A]

Holy shit. Like in this, from this perspective, Hitler was like an open micr, just a.

[B]

Well. And look where what you just put. If you put together the level of autocracy that's being invoked now, the kind of shrewdness of. Of it, you know, and then use of the technology to support it, you could envision a kind of a 1984 ish kind of level of rooterhood. That would, that would, that would. We're. We're on alert about it.

[A]

Oh, we're. Listen, we're there. Like to me, like where it's incredibly insidious is that people are always saying some version of man. We're talking. This is Orwellian. It's like, my friend, you live in a Panopticon. Everyone has a phone in their pockets. You will notice that. You probably don't notice. I have a feeling you have better Internet hygiene than I do. But you'll notice that when people are in some kind of embarrassing YouTube clip. Yeah, whatever. It may be a Karen, which is a whole genre.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Someone will be filming a Karen and she freaks out and then what does the Karen do? Pulls out her phone. You're gonna film me? I'm gonna film you. Like some kind of bizarre camera totem. Now I'm filming you too. And we live in a panopticon, like in the way that creatures, when they're threatened, used to pull the humans in the Wild West. What do you do? You pull your gun out. Now people pull out their phone. I'm going to digitize your ass. Permanentize, concretize. I'm going to upload your ass.

[B]

This is going on YouTube.

[A]

And so we. So. And as far as the coercive state, control is already here. You know how many times I have to scan my fucking eyes at the airport just to get on a plane? It's like it's already here, but there's a whole other cultural entity running the show. That's the canceling part, which is should you fall outside of whatever the particular.

[B]

Well, Duncan, sometimes you have to fight, right? In life.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

But however, is it possible to be a warrior without anger, and that was another phrase. Is it possible to purify one's own motivation and intention in terms of entering the fray? At least do the best you can towards not at least what you've learned so far about the negative possibilities of aggression and just unleashing your aggression on the world as an operating system, dude. So one by one, a person can make that decision without a doubt, in my opinion.

[A]

How.

[B]

The minute. The minute you lose that, you're kind of. Your journey as a spiritual warrior, if you want to call it that, is has been dented. Seriously, if you're just using that whole thing to foist your own aggression to the situation, you haven't looked deeply into it.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

I'm not trying to bypass with that. You do have to sometimes enter the discussion that people are having. You have to be fearless to have a perspective. You have to be willing to talk to people who you don't agree with. I think that's super important. And, you know, we have to try.

[A]

Yeah, I see. I love what you're saying because in the same way people criticize Christianity who don't really have a full picture of what it is, the general critique of Buddhism, it's passive. So I guess you're just gonna, like, what? Just show them your soft Buddha belly and let them rip your guts out. And it is not inviting you to a passive victim me kind of like, let the tyrant be the tyrant life. But it's, I think, making a fairly obvious, maybe too obvious point, which is if you go into battle with anger, you will not be as effective as if you go into battle with a clear, calm mind and all the, you know, hanging out with Joe, you inevitably meet these UFC fighters. Holy fuck, these are terrifying. Like, you've seen them, you've seen them, like just, just, you know, brutalizing another human. But yet you meet them in person. They are the sweetest, calmest, sweetest, always. They've got this something that I've only run into in people like you, this complete coolness to them. And sometimes when you're seeing them fight the best of them, they don't seem to really get mad. Some of them do. And then right after, when they're both covered in blood and eyeballs hanging out of their head, they hug each other. One of them will whisper something in the other one's ear, like, that was incredible. You are such a good. There's a compassion to the person that they just brutalized. And so to me, the reason that they got to that place was not because they were at a music festival and took ecstasy and realized that everyone deserves love. It's a lifetime of discipline. And I'm getting to a point, which is, how do we get to that place in an expeditious way?

[B]

Because so again, again, first thought. And you can, you know, this is just for consideration. Anger and aggression seem to decrease sensitivity and awareness.

[A]

Yes, yes, they do.

[B]

Now you could say it's made me alert. I'm vigilant now and I'm on the case. So that's the enlightened dimension of it. And that's clarity. Yes. Sometimes if you're sleepy, you need to wake up and you could get angry for a minute, but if you start fueling on that energy alone, it's going to make you less sensitive and less strategic and less able to know where and what to do. So we may have like a cultural renaissance that's happening here. And here's what I think, Duncan. The whole world is looking at government systems, governing systems with a new eye. And you know, should. Is the best governing system some kind of hierarchical structure? Is it a geodesic dome? Yeah, you know what? And we're looking at it like the, the idea of democracy is not that old comparison to other forms of governing systems which are more hierarchical. So, and there's hierarchical systems that are more benevolent and ones that are more like dominatrix, top down kind of things. So I think that there's some real looking at what, how we should be going about it. And well, look at what just happened in Nepal.

[A]

I mean, they overthrew the communist government and they have now the kids. Gen Z. Gen Z. Oh, don't take their phones away. You know what? That's like they told them they couldn't have phones anymore and that was the final straw.

[B]

They broke it. Huh?

[A]

It already wasn't great. But they took their phones away and within, I don't know, a day, the parliament building that's been there for hundreds of years is on fire. And I think they're attempting to institute some kind of like digital democracy. I mean, I feel like, I don't know. But before we even get there, though, David, I want to mention how on one level, anger feels good. And when I intellectually contemplate dropping my anger, do you know what? I also immediately think, but then I can't attack. But then there's a sense of like, I will have neutered myself.

[B]

Well, you'll be defenseless.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like a baby.

[A]

Yes, that's it. And you know, though, as you mentioned, the top down hierarchical system is great with a dominatrix, we must allow the dominatrixes to do their very sacred and holy work in this world. But on a general life experience.

[B]

I.

[A]

Can remember, God, this is way too personal and intimate. It's so sad. And when I think back to it, I'm just like, God, oh, I wish I knew you when I was a kid. But I can remember parents got divorced, ptsd, dad, alcoholism. I have the classic can't remember most of my childhood thing. I can remember sitting in class just hurting so bad and I started thinking, build a wall, build a wall, build a wall, build a wall, build a wall, build a wall. I was saying that over and over like some mantra in my head. And I managed to numb it, numb it down. I managed to like numb that. And so what you're inviting, you're basically inviting a lot of people who have experienced a lot of pain to just deconstruct this wall that they probably started building when they were kids. And that did keep them safe to some degree. They, to some degree needed it. And which is why when I start going in this direction, I'm like, you're talking about years of masonry here, friend. You're talking. And I don't mean the freemasons. I'm saying years. You're talking about declaw, defang. And then what? And then what? Ripped to shreds by.

[B]

Well, yes, and that's a great question. How does one engage in that process of becoming more vulnerable, becoming more open hearted, becoming, you know, less defended? How do you take care of yourself properly?

[A]

Yeah, how?

[B]

And so this is, again, I come, I come naturally. I don't think I'd be teaching or having these Conversations. If I hadn't studied the tradition, I studied and feel some responsibility and interest in perpetuating it and going forward with it in a very fluid way. But what it says is there's. It's called a mandala. There's an arrangement of things that is very organic, and it includes protection, principles. So when you see these mandalas, these ancient mandalas, there's a great being sitting in the center of it, which represents some enlightened quality.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wisdom, compassion. Then there is sort of a coterie around that deity. You know, there's some kind of, like, society that forms around it, intimate gathering of people. And then there's a sort of boundary of it and a moat around the situation. In other words, it's this sort of. You can't just run in there and spiel and throw up and puke. You have to kind of be a little more mindful to start with, and then you engage those aspects of energy for yourself. And the mo. They're protectors outside, and they're fierce. Like in Japan, there are these sort of dogs, and do they have temple dogs? And if you're not going to disarm, you can't come in.

[A]

Okay. That's.

[B]

You can't just go. So that. And. And those principles. Here's the analogy that's used for it is the thorn on a rose that's a natural protector. Like you say, the rose is so vulnerable, so beautiful, somebody could just pluck it or just throw it away, stomp on it. But the. The thorn makes you aware and. And wakes you up on the spot. So that's the protective principles. That's what police is supposed to do. That's what the military is supposed to be about.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We need protection from. From. From our own, you know, sort of, let's say, habitual forces that. That can bring the whole situation down, but they have to be without aggression. So. And how is that even possible?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Train those people to be like. And. And great policemen and great military people. Are. They are not coming from an aggressive place, actually.

[A]

No, they're though. And, And I.

[B]

Like you said the UFC fighters, you know.

[A]

Yeah, I've seen that. And. But I'm. I. I guess I mean, like, in a more pragmatic way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I mean, like today, for people listening.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who are contending with insane cultural forces on top of cultural forces that these kids. David, just think of these kids. Think of Gen Z in the last. Like, everyone's down on them. They call it the Gen Z stare. I don't know if You've heard of this, but they have this weird stare and it's like, yeah, look at the world that they were born into. They were born into a world with a brand new technology, hyperconnectivity, a sudden like, explosion of like ideas from anonymous sources or like source people with varying spin. I guess you could say different. Conscious wars, terrorist attacks, assassinations, complete political turmoil, tumult and confusion. And how in the world do they. Are we even being assholes for inviting them to put down their sword for a second? Like, how do you do that?

[B]

Wait, wait, wait. Because in the protective principle, you don't put down the sword.

[A]

I don't mean put down their sword. I'm sorry, I'm saying.

[B]

But let me give you another.

[A]

Not be angry.

[B]

Not being the analogy that's used is sharpening the sword.

[A]

Oh, okay, that's cool. Okay.

[B]

And the sword is the prajna, the discernment. So you can train those young people to, to take that clarity of mind and that need to be part of a changing situation. And you could sharpen it. You could invite them to become sharper, not duller.

[A]

And the way in the whetstone in this case is non ignorance.

[B]

It always is going to come back to that. If people don't have a personal practice or cultivation, everything we're talking about becomes very theoretical.

[A]

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[B]

And I am saying bench yourself for 20 minutes a day.

[A]

Just 20 minutes on the bench. No big deal.

[B]

Yeah, but for all the people I work with, it's a huge, big deal for some of them can't get there. They want to fix everything, change everything. But I say just settle down and be, you know, with yourself for 20 minutes.

[A]

I've got an idea.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

I think I know just the way. Instead of let's take this, let's take this out of the linguistic realm and let's do, let's sit for 10 minutes. I think we have time. Why don't you do what I've seen you do many times for people who are watching this, for people who are listening, why don't you, let's do a practice session. Do you have time?

[B]

I have lots of time.

[A]

Okay, let's do, let's do it. Let's let you, you pick.

[B]

It should be shorter because we're just sort of, this is, let's call this inception. We're maybe planting a seed of an idea.

[A]

Okay, so let's do it for five minutes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Josh, put a commercial right here. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

[B]

You cannot do that ahead of time. I thought, I'm going to get my bell out for this session. I've never done this before, but this time I thought, no, I want my.

[A]

What do you call that? What's the name of that tendril?

[B]

Yeah, Auspicious coincidence.

[A]

Josh, do you want to meditate with us? Okay, let's do it. Yeah, let me put my phone on airplane mode. I'm going to step off the mic here and let you do your thing. And then let's do this. Or should we do 10 minutes?

[B]

No, five.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But I want to give A little framing of it. And I don't know what button to push is there. Can you hear when I ring the bell? Yeah, all the way through?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Close enough. I mean, we're not going to get the final resonant, beautiful thing.

[B]

But there's a setting on Zoom that allows it to ring out, but I don't know what it is on this. So, yeah, here's the thing. We are benching ourselves, quite literally, but not permanently. Nobody's saying withdraw, retreat from the world, stop the world. I want to get off. We're just saying leaving a little bit of space. Even in the worst situation possible, you can do this in the most challenging situation and just to take a good seat. Like feel embodied. That's the thing is anger takes us. We don't feel embodied properly when we're doing those conning and canceling stuff. We're not even actually in our body at that point. So take a good moment to be embodied and feel your butt on the cushion or on the chair, your feet on the floor and kind of the natural nobility of the posture. You know, nice long spine, you just rest your hands on your knees, right? And yeah, we may have all kinds of thoughts coming into it, but we're going to just let that go for a short time. And the second step, once we've taken our posture and you keep your eyes open with a soft downward gaze, there's no hiding out here. It's just you're being present. The second gesture is to just allow your attention to come to your breath. So you're just being mindful and aware of your own breathing in a very organic way. It just gives you some place to anchor your attention for a moment. So just feel the breath going in out of your body. You don't need to manipulate the breath and you don't need to feel like you're doing something special or extra. You're just taking your seat and paying attention to your breathing. And then, of course, naturally, there's a lot of momentum in our thoughts and our feelings, which will continue. So we'll find that we're. Our mind has wandered. We're thinking about what we've just talked about. We're thinking about, you know, dinner tonight. We're thinking about our childhood traumas, but this is the mind basically recycling material. And in this case, once you notice that, there's no need to hold on to it further or work through it further in this exercise, just label it thinking. Oh, thinking, and then bring your attention back to the breath. That's it. For five minutes. I'll give a few prompts as we go it. So again, just feel the breath going in and out of your body at the tip of the nose or through the whole cycle of the breath. Just bring your awareness to that simplifying. And when you notice your mind is wandering, there's no need to repress the thoughts. But we also don't have to go down the rabbit hole following them. So just label it thinking and come back to the breath.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

And, and so the, the recommended dose is maybe if people could try that 20 minutes a day, five days a week, something like that and just see what it feels like to be you without any other, you know, interactions. Just what does it feel like to be you and make peace or friends with it and then re. Engage. I mean, this is not meant. I'm trying to build a bridge with what we're doing between the kind of active world and this contemplative space because they need each other.

[A]

You know, this brought me right back to that incredible retreat at Menla. Oh my God. You know, that was. I think that was one of the most profound spiritual experiences I've had. But it's so subtle. Just like the other day, you know, I was no, today I was holding my daughter's hand, walking her to her class and I remember doing the walking meditation and I remember how you said this will anchor your practice in post meditation experience. And just like that, I was back there in that mind. It really did work because my God, I have such a rotten practice. I drift like a kite. And moments like this, anytime, the reminder of that place.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is just, it's so.

[B]

Well, you know, it's great to remind yourself not of a place but of the instruction.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

You know, like don't take your eye off the ball. You know, like if you had a good little league coach.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't remember what it feels like, but you can remember that instruction. You go, okay, I'm here now. This is actually happening. Yeah, I would love to see it. I mean, look, I may be heavily biased towards thinking this is a good idea. And I also want to say I'm not an expert on any of this. I'm certain. Certainly not a political. I don't want to give people advice as to whether they should do this or do that. I just. That's not where I'm coming from. But I do feel like if. Can you imagine those congressional hearings if they started it and ended it like we just did, you know?

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

You know, it's the one minute in boxing, there's three minutes in the ring, one minute in the corner.

[A]

Oh, my God. Or like anytime the president gave some kind of address, if it just started with that, with him just sitting for five minutes with a bell.

[B]

You can approximate it to without the bell. And with 20 seconds of just leaving some settling quality.

[A]

That was the greatest moment of meditation ever. Maybe the best. They say it was the best. They say it was the greatest meditation ever. That's what people are saying. In fact, they say that I'm the best of meditators, maybe the best American meditating president of all time. One of the best. That's what they say.

[B]

And then you just label it thinking and you come back to just being the president.

[A]

That is such a. To me, what you just walked us through. And maybe I just call it this because I like drama is one of the most revolutionary, subversive things that I know, like that I know of in the world. That for some, that should not matter. And the fact that it just. Just that alone, I don't know how you guys felt. You might be like, that was fucked up, boring or whatever. That's what I used to think when I did it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But generally my sense is like, my God, this is just right in front of everybody, totally accessible.

[B]

And boredom is the antidote for hyperactivity.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's a good antidote. So we're cranked up. That's my perception of the world. It's in hyperdrive and cranked up and people are ready to go, you know, like, you know, you know how if you, if you encounter somebody, like in a bar and they're ready to go, there's. We're cranked, we're on the edge of our seats for something to happen. And so nothing seems to be the antidote.

[A]

It's the best. It really is the ultimate. To me, in between doing activism, that is true activism. But it's so odd because, I mean, you wouldn't think of it that way.

[B]

It's maybe, well, look at Thich Nhat Hanh or Gandhi.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and it's possible. We have to explore it. We have to find it in our own time and place, and we have to deculturize it. It doesn't need this pro. This uniquely cultural envelope. It needs human access for, for modern people just to be able to integrate some kind of little bit more space into the hyperactive universe that we've created. So if anybody has any questions about it, they can let us know.

[A]

Let me do a pitch here. By the way, in case you forget, not that you would, but David is my. Has the. David has the unfortunate karma of being my meditation teacher. I don't know why he had to deal with me, but. And I've worked with you for I don't even know how many years now. And my life has changed dramatically over those years. But, you know, I think about you every day. I think about you every day and I think about the things that you've taught me and the work we've done together every single day. And then I blink out from talking to you. And it's not because of anything other than like, I'm usually working through something on my own. I don't know how to say it to anybody, but the. You have this incredible, incredible community called Dharma Moon. I was lucky enough to be invited to one of your retreats and it was just fabulous. The different teachers, you had your own kid, Ethan. Like all of these, it was just. For me, it was just perfect. And I don't know if you guys are. This is not some like half baked attempt to hide a pitch or anything, but. And I have no idea if you're even doing anything like that again, but wow, man. Wow. That. I'm telling you, if there was some kind of medicine for the world right now, what you guys are distilling, we.

[B]

Have the whole thing online. Dharmamoon.com is online and we're unabashedly trying to engage people to come and participate. And we have. We're sort of specializing in training teachers, mindfulness teachers, but training practitioners. And, you know, we have this fall, you know, another teacher training coming up. And there's a free info session about it next week that people can come check out on September 23rd. We'll put the. How about if we just put some notes in the show.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Some links.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And just know everybody that it's online. So it's global. We have people from all over the world. And you are welcome to come check us out and come talk to me. I like to be available to talk to people. I like talking to people.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

I like people, Duncan.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

You know, isn't that. And you. You're not going to find too many people say, I don't like people.

[A]

You know, there seems to be a growing number these days.

[B]

No, they're gonna say, I don't like some people.

[A]

Ah, right, right, right, right, right, right, right. True. So you can make a difference in someone's life, including your own, with a.

[B]

Job in home care.

[A]

These jobs offer flexible schedules Health care, retirement options, and free training. They also provide PA and opportunities for overtime. Visit oregonhomecarejobs.com to learn more and apply. That's oregonhomecarejobs.com youm won't see the engineer that slams the Nissan Rogue's door 13,920 times. Or the corrosive chamber that simulates 15 years of life in five months. Or the Rogue heat baked for over 300 times combined hours. What you will see is a vehicle that can take punch after punch and keep rolling. Nissan number one in new vehicle quality among mainstream brands by JD Power. We put it through the worst, so you get its best. For J.D. power 2025 U.S. initial Quality Study Award information. Visit J.D. power.com Awards Awards based on 2025 model year. Your newer models may be shown.

[B]

The spiritual people are trying to get you to open the envelope to include everybody. It's a big. It's a black belt territory.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But you can start by taking somebody who irritates you a little bit and not losing your cookie. You know what I mean? That would be like one small step for mankind.

[A]

It's true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, David, thank you so much. This meant the world to me. I imagine, like, probably a few days after I upload this, we can expect world peace. So thank you on behalf of citizens of the world.

[B]

At least maybe if somebody irritates you a little bit, you cannot lose your cookies. Yeah.

[A]

Don't lose your cookies.

[B]

Yeah. So thank you, Duncan. And you know, I. I get that you're trying to create a space for people to gather without the anchor of that space being like, focused hostility on somebody else's group.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that. That's hard to do these days, man. It's a.

[A]

It's a.

[B]

Even in my world, it's hard because.

[A]

People, let me tell you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm not doing a good job at it, David. I can't. It's. It's impossible. I can't. It's. It's. But you know what? I'm gonna keep trying. I don't. I'll just keep trying. And you know that there's. Fortunately, I've got people like you to connect to. And I always try to redirect. It's totally lame. I always try to redirect people to you.

[B]

Well, but look.

[A]

Look at, you know, I'm like the general pride.

[B]

I'm the shitty gp.

[A]

I'm the general practitioner, man. And like, you're the specialist that I send everyone to.

[B]

Well, it's interdependent and, you know, a lot of people come, you know, people call me from New Zealand and they say, I heard about this on. On Duncan's show. I mean, a lot of people. And this is something where I think humor can be very magnetizing for people. Just like, you know, the worst thing that happens is you get totally humorless. Like, that would be the definition of autocracy.

[A]

Oh, my God. Yeah. That's so. That's so terrifying. And it's such a.

[B]

No sense of humor.

[A]

No sense of humor. That's nihilism. Nihilism's. You know, I'm sorry. It's humorless. I mean, there are. Okay, there's funny nihilism. Who am I saying, George?

[B]

Theism can also be pretty humorless.

[A]

You're damn right it's across.

[B]

And I'm not talking about a trivial sense of humor. I'm talking a profound kind of appreciation of go see Spinal Tap 2. By the way, I just saw.

[A]

Is it good?

[B]

I laughed out loud, embarrassingly out loud the whole time. Yeah.

[A]

Well, anyhow, you know what? After, when I press stop, I got to tell you this Norm MacDonald McDonald joke about Hitler's dog. Okay, thank you, David.

[B]

We'll leave that for next time. So. Hey, everybody out there. Good to see you, and thanks to Duncan for. For including me.

[A]

Thank you, David. You are just the best. Thank you.

[B]

Okay, ciao, everybody.

[A]

Bye. That was David. Nicht turn, everybody. Don't forget to sign up for his class. I wish you all well. I hope you're doing okay, and I'll see you next week. Bye. Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway Cough. And cold season is coming, so make sure you're prepared and stock up on your family's favorite personal wellness products. Now through October 7th. Shop in store and online for savings on products like Mucinex Kickstart Combo, Zyrtec allergy relief tablets or liquid gels, Halls cough drops and Mucinex fast day and night. So you and your family are armed and ready for this season ahead. Offerings, October 7th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.