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- [00:00]
A
Hi, everybody, it's me, Duncan Trussell, reporting in to you from Austin, Texas, the land of freedom and comedy. The the Last Episode with David Nicht Turn. A lot of y' all really enjoyed that, and this month I'm trying to have as many guests on it as I can that I. I feel like, have a cooling effect or something nuanced to say about the current tense state that lots of us are experiencing. Especially if you've been gazing into your demonic hypno rectangle, which I have been. You ever see the Dark Crystal? Is that. Can you pull something up for the intro, Josh? Yeah. I want to show you guys something. When I was a kid, I remember when the Dark Crystal came out, man, I was so excited. I love Jim Henson. And my theory on the Dark Crystal is the Dark Crystal was when Jim Henson was going through his LSD phase. And I recommend watching it. Maybe not so much for your kids, if you have kids, but I want to show you something that just burnt itself in into my memory forever. What you're seeing right now is something that traumatized me when I was a kid. You know, it's Jim Henson. You think you're gonna be getting like. It's kind of like hardcore Muppets. Some Kermit the Frog, some Miss Piggy stuff. Suddenly you got these reptilian fucking bird things, strapping these cute little potato people into fucking chairs. And then they stare into the Dark Crystal and watch what happens. This is the most fucked up shit ever. You know, back then, they didn't care about kids the way they do now. This is. I don't know what it was, rated pg. But, you know, everyone who took their kids to this, you know, they were thinking about, like, Fozzie Bear. And by the time you're at this part of the movie, which is sort of far in, there's not much you're going to do. And suddenly your kid is watching this cutie get his soul drained by a fucking purple crystal. Look at this. Look at it. It's incredible the work they did. It's extracting potato jizz out of this poor little guy. And look. Look at the look on his face. He withers, eyes go blind to the turns old. What the fuck? Jim Ensign. What the fuck? It's adrenochrome. He's talking about adrenochrome harvesting. I was about to say that, but. All right, you could cut it off now, Josh, but I don't think there is a better depiction of what's happening to all of us right now. From staring into our phones. But it's not like it's extracting actual salty poddling jizz from us. It's extracting our humanity. It's sucking out of us something. We're all getting drained, man. It's actually literally. There's just no telling how much jizz gets distracted every day because of porn in the world. I mean, it's extracting jizz, too. It's extracting a variety of essences from us, many of which I don't even think we've quantified yet. At some point in the future, they'll probably be like, God, didn't they know they were getting their vatrium gas extracted from the technology they were using? We don't know about vatrium gas yet, but we're gassing out here, friends. And because of that, and I'm loathe to say it, but at one point, this has happened to a lot of podcasters. Dear friends of mine would say things to me along the lines of, man, you need to. Why aren't you? You should use your platform to spread good cheer. And I hated that shit. I was like, I don't want to get caught up in that way of thinking. I don't want to. I don't want to. The notion of significance, I think, is antithetical to being funny. Like, if you think you're significant or something, that's a bad. You're going down a dark road in general. And I don't think that's what they meant. I think I was sort of misinterpreting what they were saying. But regardless, at this point, I feel like maybe it is a good thing to send some good vibes out into the world. And thus, David Neckturn last week. This week, Doug Rushkoff. Rushkoff is. I'm lucky. I don't even remember how we got to be friends. I've been friends with him for a very long time, and he's one of those people who, online and offline, has had a real impact on the way I look at the world. His message, which I guess you could call Team Human, his message of connecting outside of the digisphere, that there's this entire beautiful world right outside our phones. And I know that's a hackneyed thing to say and a cliche thing to say, but weirdly, it's very easy to forget that. And he just has a beautiful way of pointing towards this imminent possibility that's around us all the time. An imminent world that isn't one riddled with fear and division and catastrophe. And algorithmic enhanced horror. But a more simple kind of world, and a world filled with fucking. This is important. So everybody please welcome host of Team Human. All the links you need to find, Mr. Rushkoff will be down below. Please welcome back to the dtfh, Doug Rushkoff. You can pick your heart, you can pick your nose, but don't pick your friend's heart's nose. Mr. Rushkoff, welcome to the DTFH. You are the second. I don't know. I don't want to say series, because then I'm committed to it, but you are on this list of people. After Charlie Kirk got assassinated and everyone just, you know, we entered into, like, whatever it is. Chernobyl level. Yeah. Like cultural radio activity after that. I thought of you. I thought of my meditation teacher, some people from the Ram Dass community. I just want to have some voices on the show that might have a way of sort of calming us down or at least some ideas on how to navigate the current powder keg that seems to be planet Earth.
- [07:19]
B
Well, people aren't gonna. People on the. People on the left and on the right may not like what I have to say here, but everyone else will.
- [07:32]
A
Well, that means. You're saying that means it's good. That means it's good.
- [07:42]
B
The fundamental thing that is happening here, if you pull back and just look at what's happening, is people are looking at TVs and smartphones and seeing pictures and words that are freaking them out.
- [08:07]
A
Yep.
- [08:09]
B
There's. There's. And I get it, there are. There are bad things happening in the world, and there are bad things happening all the time.
- [08:19]
A
Yeah.
- [08:20]
B
You know, the. The minute before Charlie Kirk was shot, a child asphyxiated in violence in China, in Palestine, in Rwanda, and probably somewhere in Mississippi.
- [08:38]
A
Right.
- [08:41]
B
So I'm not saying that for those who believe that Charlie Kirk's death may have been more bad than those other deaths that happened right before on some cultural level. But there's a figure on the screen and there's the ground where you live. The figure on the screen matters more and more to the extent you are disconnected from the ground where you live. So the Chinese girl who died, who, I don't know, maybe did or didn't, the Charlie Kirk who was shot. These are all horrible things, and they're going on all the time. Right. You take a real dose of mushrooms and lie on your back and close your eyes. Couple of hours in, you're going to see, oh, my God, this world is pain and suffering. The unnecessary trauma and grief is. Is you open to that? It's fucking. I'm still recovering from having seen it two years ago. That way it's there. So we can. We can create media and technology and culture around highlighting those points of horror in order to activate or entertain people in a particular way. Or we can acknowledge that we have tools that could show us whatever most horrible thing is happening at that moment and choose to spend a majority of our time helping the other human beings in the real local reality where we are metabolize the pain, trauma, grief of this moment.
- [10:34]
A
Right. Well, I mean, I guess if we're going to make a distinction here between the. God knows, I'm surprised you went with asphyxiate. I'm going to say there was, like, probably some kid in Afghanistan who got ripped apart by dogs. You know, somebody ate a poisonous snail and, like, their head exploded within a spelunker or something.
- [10:57]
B
Some accidental and some completely intentional children being killed by their parents. I mean, there's just. Every moment there's something bad happening.
- [11:05]
A
They got their eyes out, probably, and poured into their eyes glycophate. If I had to get. I mean, I'm sure there's a list. In fact, I think I could spend the next hour making up horrible ways that people have died. But one difference, and I think that really did add that amped up the collective trauma I think a lot of people were experiencing, because the algorithm for a second was just, hey, want to see somebody get assassinated? Check it out. Like, everybody was seeing it. Which, you know, I don't know about you, but I've seen a lot of gore on the Internet and, like, it fucked with my head. It was so horrible. But then this was. Hippies like me assumed, like, oh, this is going to be one of those moments where everyone's like, dude, what are we doing? You can't do political violence. What the fuck, right? And then it's followed by. I want to thank Squarespace for supporting this episode of the dtfh. Squarespace, my beloved friends, have not only supported this podcast for years, but they have created a technology that I have used and continue to use to make some of the most beautiful websites on planet Earth. Just go to douglattrustle.com be prepared to shake with a combination of inspiration, an erotic charge. It's a powerful website, and it works. It's easy to update, easy to change, and it does everything I could possibly want a website to do, and that is a hundred percent because of Squarespace. They've got literally everything you could need if you want to build A website. If you want to send emails out to people that don't make them feel like you're about to steal their identity, it's got AI that will help you build the website. You can connect all your socials onto your website. You can create paywalls if you want to have members only areas, everything. And it's easy to use. Squarespace is a brilliant toolbox, an ever evolving digital Swiss army knife that you can use to extantiate your dream, your business, your idea, your joke, your absurdist comedy or whatever it may be onto the world wide Web. Don't believe me? Go to squarespace.com Duncan try it out, take it for a ride around the block. And when you're ready to launch, which you will be, use offer code Duncan to get 10% off your first order of a website or a domain. Thank you, Squarespace. So many people gleefully celebrate. It just happened. Like, it just happened and people were celebrating or they were adding an addendum to like, Charlie Kirk was assassinated. Political violence is bad. But he did say things that were controversial, which is an implicit way of saying, you know, therefore he kind of, you know, brought it on himself. It's like a simple, it's like a way of like when someone's like, well, yeah, you were assaulted. But right.
- [14:57]
B
It's interesting. I didn't, I'm not on. On Twitter that much, so I didn't see. And I could never actually identify or find an example of that. I, what I saw. And maybe it's just because of the way that my feed comes to me. What I saw was an immediate effort.
- [15:21]
A
To.
- [15:24]
B
Capitalize on this, this death and potential trauma to, you know, lock down kind of social control. In other words, this became. Oh, you see, this is why we have to close leftist media.
- [15:41]
A
Well, you know that it, the, what you're, what you're talking about here and you're definitely. Now, I think we have managed to piss off the left and the right, so congratulations to us.
- [15:51]
B
But yeah, but I only watch mainstream, so I only saw like, you know, what Trump was saying, not what, you.
- [15:56]
A
Know, you're talking about. So it's like, it's a, it's a horrific feedback loop. So, right, you've got a group of people who clearly have been, who have dehumanized this person to the point that they're doing TikTok dances celebrating him getting shot. And there was a lot of them, man. And also I, we. I wish, I wish that Twitter.
- [16:17]
B
Really sad.
- [16:18]
A
I wish Twitter had algorithm swapping where I could be like, Can I borrow your algorithm for the rest of the afternoon? But, but the, and then, then. Because suddenly, like, all these people who are like horrified are now like, who the fuck are these people? Like, it's ghoulish is the only way to describe it. It's ghoulish. And so those people, of course the reason they're acting like that, if you ask me, is it's a trauma shield. It's like if instead of having to deal with just the reality of like, a dad got fucking shot, you come up with there's a rational explanation for this. He kind of didn't say the right things. And then you go gleeful. And then you don't have to feel it. It's the same thing. Like, if you're watching.
- [17:09]
B
I really, I don't, I don't know about the glee.
- [17:13]
A
Oh, you know, because it was no, you know, you know, good people, you know, people who had the correct response like that. But sadly there wasn't. And to finish my point, now a lot of people are seeing that and they're like, oh my God, what the fuck has happened that people are celebrating this? Are they just going to start killing conservatives? And then, of course, what comes next? Government response. The government response, seeing all that is like, don't worry, we're going to keep you safe. We're going to keep you safe. Now Antifa is a terrorist organization and FCC attacks Kimmel. And in the. And so what you're seeing is just like a back and forth between two extremes manifesting as. And then of course, when that happens, the response from the gleeful people is, see, fascist police state. And then they're like, oh, I'll show you police state. You want to see a police. And then this is all 100% related to what you initially started off saying.
- [18:15]
B
I mean, and that's not the narrative, right? And interesting. I mean, and it doesn't really matter, but that's not the narrative that I would, that I would use to describe what happened. I would say this person was shot. And the vast, vast majority on both sides was like, it is awful that we've reached this state of political violence. And when they do say, even though this guy may have been saying really scary things, the fact that it escalated to violence is unconscionable and beyond the pale. And if some friggin as I would see it, you know, Russian Twitter bots found people celebrating, people celebrating dancing on TikTok about this, I would think that's more akin to the fake footage they found of you Know Palestinians or Arabs in New Jersey supposedly dancing when 9, 11 happened, which isn't true.
- [19:22]
A
You want it to be fake. But it wasn't these people. So then what happened?
- [19:27]
B
But wait, but if there are these outliers, you know, and they really would be. They really would be outliers. I know people. They're outliers, you know, the same as outliers. Like, obviously, Tucker Carlson is an extreme outlier. To say that people plan this in Jerusalem over hummus and to joke about the death of Charlie Kirk, as you know, in front of people at his memorial, to make a joke about people having hummus in Jerusalem to plot this, Ha ha is an outlier, right? That's an outlier. We have to look at him the same way you look at the child in. Wherever that was doing a TikTok dance about. This is. That's not. That's not where we go. And when it's outliers doing it, it's one thing when our. When people in the. In the middle and in places of leadership then move into response mode to that or that's where, you know, that. That's where it's. It's. It's troubling.
- [20:40]
A
And you, Josh and I, my producer, were just talking about this, which is if, I don't know, you're on the left, and you posted something saying, that was unconscionable and horrible. I hope his family's okay. We can't resort to political violence. That's it. That's all you said. You know what happened? You know what the algorithm would do with that? The algorithm would be like, fuck you. I'm not boosting that. That's not going to anybody's feeds. You fucking what? And so the outliers that you're talking about, what happens is, you know, some psycho is doing a dance in their car about someone getting killed that gets picked up by big accounts on the right who start posting it as an example not of an outlier, but as a general consensus among a blanket group of leftists. Then, now that an account is posted, the algorithm is like, I guess people like this. And then that starts getting blown up and blown up and blown up. And it gives the impression. I think that's the point you're trying to make, that the world is not filled with a lot of people who just want to go about their daily lives and think it's horrible to murder people. But in fact, the world is either populated with rabid leftists who want to start shooting Christians, or the world is populated by Anti Semitic conservatives who want to blame everything on Mossad. And there's nothing in between. There's no nuance there.
- [22:22]
B
I mean, the interesting thing to me about what's going on now is after having resisted an, to some extent sort of self excluding violent people from their ranks, the, the, the, the left living in this, what I'm calling, you know, fascistic atmosphere has taken on, has gotten some violent people in it now.
- [23:00]
A
Yeah.
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B
In other words, you, you didn't, you didn't. You know, really, in, in the 60s through the Sandinistas, you know, you saw it was, it was pretty difficult for violent people to infiltrate that. There was the Weatherman, which did some stuff, you could say the Symbionese Liberation Army.
- [23:24]
A
Sure.
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B
Might have been Patty Hearst. Those could be called left. There were those little pockets, but it wasn't generally, you know, you know, people with sidearms and stuff, you know, with the bazookas, you know, you usually associated with more with the, the authoritarian. Authoritarian. Right. And the, the like. Today's, we don't have to call it today's if you want to not show this today, but the subsequent violence at the ICE office now. Right, which, again, right away, which side did it, you know, well, one of the ICE people was shot, but one of the ICE detainees was shot. So it could have been who, as if. And that should really help us to see that. All right, Someone on each side was shot and we're still trying to worry about which side was it that did the shooting.
- [24:24]
A
What team?
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B
What team? Rather than. Right, rather than the ideas. We're on fucking Team Human here. We're on Team Human, and there's an energy, there's a quality that's killing people, that's inciting a kind of violence and that. And that's why we do have to look at the rhetoric of our leaders. Are they talking about beating people up or are they talking about finding unity and calming things down? If they're talking about unity, are they being teased for talking about unity and told, no, you should hate, you should hate? As our president just said, no, no, I hate, I don't forgive, I hate, and I want to hold on to that. You got what, what kind of atmosphere is that making? Is it creating fear and violence or is it creating a sense of, no, we don't need unity. But even tolerance isn't the greatest word. But collaborating, working together here and on the screen, that's not possible. The business model of the screen is division. The media bias of the screens is polarity. But in the Real world, when you're a pinko, lefty, progressive psychedelic head like me and you are standing side by side handing buckets of mud to the volunteer fireman, right wing MAGA hat wearing guy because your mutual neighbor's house is covered in mud from a flood which may or may not have come from climate change. The differences are gone. This is really, as far as most of us are concerned, this is. What show are you watching on Netflix or whatever? Are you watching the Kevin Costner right wing thing about the rancher in Montana? Or are you watching like Mr. Robot about the lefty revolt against money? Or like me, are you watching both and going, oh my God. So it's the show. I mean, when Trump was running again and people were saying, who do you think's gonna win? I was like, well, Trump's gonna win. I was like, why? I said, because more Americans would rather watch the, the Netflix series of Trump season two then Biden season two. Right? It's basically that. And the more that we're involved in the screen, the more that we are going to be leaning into this sensationalist crazy making stuff. And then there's layer upon layer upon layer. I mean, for me, this kind of started around 9, 11 and some crazy started. Then Obama got elected, which we thought was revolutionary, but he turned out to be Ronald Reagan. So we got, we got Occupy and then it started to get weird. Then we got, you know, then we got Trump, then we got the COVID then we got Gaza, Israel, and then we got Trump too. And then we get Charlie Kirk. It's like layer upon layer of crazy. And each one makes so much money for these companies, but each one further distances us from each other. And I'm saying don't ignore current events or whatever, you don't, but get off the fucking screen. Help your neighbor kiss somebody. There's an old lady who needs your help. There's people you could do stuff with. Just help people around you and the government will matter less. It won't matter if FEMA gets there in three days or three months because you're taking care of each other. It won't give Musk and all those people all this power over you because you're not buying their shit. You're going to the local farmer and, and, and doing, you're doing, you're. We're starting to take care of ourselves.
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A
That is beautiful. That's the most beautiful. That, that is something the algorithm is going to be like that. We're not posting that, what you just said. It's like that ain't going nowhere.
- [28:21]
B
Every second, right? Every second that you're making love to somebody without an AI Fleshbot is like a money. That's a moment that you're, you're hurting the marketplace, you're hurting the media.
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A
That's right, man. And this, this is what I love about you. And I gotta tell you, you know, I've, I think about what you say all the time. You, you're so brilliant. And I can remember the last podcast we did. I think it was the last one. You're talking about borrowing a drill, like, you had to borrow. And, and how this connected you with a neighbor. And you easily could have gone to Home Depot, bought a shitty drill. So there was a storm in Austin. My neighbor's fence. My fence got fucked up by my neighbor's tree. And I love my neighbor. He's cool, but, you know, I haven't spent any time with him, really.
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B
So you sued him?
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A
You heard. Actually, he's in jail right now. No, and we were talking and, you know, I was saying, you know, we'll just get someone to fix the fence, and then we can split up, whatever it costs. And then we started talking like, a week later, and we're both like, how come we don't just fix this fence? And I'm like, yeah, I think we could fix the fence, right? Like, he's like, yeah, we can fix this. And so then I'm in his car, going to Home Depot. We're driving, having the best conversation about kids and meteors. And I'm just realizing I already liked him, but it's like, I love my neighbor. He is so cool and actually literate when it comes to. I had to explain to him, you must understand, I, I don't know how to do anything with tools or anything. I, I, I acted like I knew how to fix the fence. Yeah, I don't. And he's like, no problem. And then all of a sudden, now I am like, friends, legitimate friends. I've spent time with my neighbor all because of you. Because it would have been so much easier to just get somebody to come and fix the fucking thing. So much easier. And that little moment, it really, like, I mean, I don't want to, like, blow it too far out of proportion, but in a little way, it changed my life and a little my life. The person I live next to, I know more. I know about his kids. I know, like, he's funny. I know. You know, like, you know, and he was telling me a story of how in the neighborhood there was, like, Just this part of it that was just shit gravel. And just how he organized the campaign with the city to plant flowers there. I've been walking by it, I didn't know he did it. And all the neighbors came together and you know, beautified this little part of the neighborhood. And the whole time like, God, I wish Rushkoff was here.
- [31:16]
B
I mean that's, this is a beautiful thing. I mean that's what I've been talking about is you put the social back into socialism and get rid of the ism. You know, it's just social where people doing stuff for each other. Now when I tell stories like what you're telling, because I do a lot of these, you know, friggin business conferences and stuff. A lot of, a lot of. We won't call them right or left, but business people are there. They'll say, well that's all nice and good, but what about the fence company? Now instead of hiring the fence company, you did this stuff for yourself. Instead of buying a lawnmower for everyone on the block, Rushkoff, you're talking about having one or two lawnmowers for the whole block that people share. What about the lawnmower company? What about the old lady who's, who's stocked dividends and retirement depends on the coupons he's clipping from the lawnmower company stock. What about the employee at the lawnmower company? And the thing is, well, what if the employee gets to work less? Right? The, the what We've, what we've been finding, this is the interesting thing is in, in times of collapse, usually why societies collapse is because they have a pyramidal structure. In a pyramidal structure, it means you're getting a few elites up at the top. And there's societies where the primary value is acquisition and accumulation.
- [32:37]
A
Right?
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B
Go back to the Bible, you know, let's get seven years worth of grain in there. Just store it up, store it up in societies that survive, that survive collapse or don't actually collapse, are more distributed. And they, they, they optimize not for, for acquisition, they optimize for leisure, they optimize for slack. So the idea is, I mean, remember slack? I mean that was our generation.
- [33:05]
A
Hell yeah.
- [33:07]
B
We're in slacker town now. Right? So, exactly. So let's say we buy less lawnmowers. So that means we need less money so we don't have to work as much. And correspondingly the guy in the lawnmower company doesn't have to work as much because we, we don't need as Many lawnmowers. So who does this hurt? It only hurts the kind of the shareholder person who wants to make money off all those lawnmowers without actually doing any work. And, you know, in the end, kind of them, fuck them. What if we put a limit on what. Just say you could only be a billion dollars wealthy and then maybe no more after that. Can we put a limit? There used to be a few million, you know, used to be a hundred million or something, but a billion after a billion. Can we just say just a taps out? You can work if you want, but you can't accumulate any more money than that. Okay, I'm out of the planet.
- [33:56]
A
Let me out, hippie you. Here's my dumb dream. And feel free to pop the fucking bubble. I probably need it popped. Here's my dumb dream. So. And I feel pathetic that I'm even talking about how unique it was that I. That I spent time with my neighbor fixing something. He did most of the work. I'm gonna be honest. I don't. Like. I don't have. I don't know how to anyway.
- [34:21]
B
But did you document it? Were you the documenter? Did you take pictures of it happening?
- [34:25]
A
I didn't want to even. I'm gonna film you, but get a.
- [34:30]
B
Podcast out of it.
- [34:32]
A
You know, in my life, there's like a lot of stuff that I do. I get addicted to video games. I've been playing this wonderful game called Silk Song. It's so good. But you know what I've been thinking about? Not that dumb game. I just keep thinking about riding to Home Depot. I keep thinking about how fun that was. You know what I mean? And. Or I think about time I spend my kids. I think about. And these things are. There's no. There's no way to quantify it. There's no way to sell neighbor time. There's no way to. So, so. So my dumb hippie dream is that if enough people begin to realize that those moments that you have been talking about and talking about and talking about not only are way better than any kind of consumerist distraction or consumerist pursuit, but they're free. There's no price tag on it, and it's better. It's a free thing. That's better. And to me, if enough people started realizing that, then the market cap or you can only make a billion dollars or all that stuff, it wouldn't matter as much. You know, me and Josh are just talking about the dollars being devalued, but it's like, what if all dollars became Devalued. What if the entire quantification mechanism we're using for this is a good thing? It costs so much money? Became meaningless because enough people began to realize that is not an accurate gauge for something of value. It doesn't measure value.
- [36:08]
B
This is what I was writing about in the. In the earlier 2000s, I wrote this book, Life Inc. Where I looked at not just the establishment of the corporation, but the. The invention of central currency. There used to be other kinds of currency, right? And they worked more like poker chips. You know, poker chips have no value, right? They're nothing. Right? You trade in your. They're nothing. And the. The way that's the way money would work in the medieval marketplace is you'd go there and someone would kind of prime the pump with these little IOUs, but they would all expire at the end of the day. You know, they were. They were each worth, like, a loaf of bread or a piece of this or what, and you would. They would. They would prime the. The baker or someone would sort of prime the activity with a bunch of these IOUs, just so that everybody could trade and get. Get everything they wanted, right? There was like, okay, five o', clock, trading day ends. Everybody cash in your chips and it's done, right? You would have. No. There was no money as such, so you could. You could. Because it was almost as if the whole society lived in RAM and not on the hard drive. It was all, you know, it was all cool. Active.
- [37:13]
A
Yes, active. That's it.
- [37:15]
B
And what you invested in was your people, was your friendships, was your community, not some number thing, the old lady. It's like, we have to live our lives getting a number to be high enough so then we can retire and the number will go down, won't go all the way down before we die. It's like, ugh, it's a nightmare.
- [37:33]
A
It's a. It sounds like some fucking Mr. Beast, some horrible Mr. Beast challenge. Yeah, the. The. In. In. So to me, like, whenever these moments happen and I'm, like, looking around, I got. I'm getting lit up. People are fucking blaming. Saying I'm getting paid by Peter fucking Thiel or that I'm, you know, insinuating that I'm, like, pro surveillance state or censoring myself for Rogan people coming at me, man. And, like, it's been illuminating for me, really. It really has, in a very good way, because it really made me realize, like, oh, how many times have I believed something that I saw online that's completely wrong? How many times have I been this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Have you ever found yourself sitting in the back of the an Uber or a Lyft fantasizing that maybe the driver is some kind of oracle sent to you from the universe to help guide you through a difficult moment in your life? I have never once thought during those moments that maybe this driver didn't want to hear anything about my marriage, my job, my fears, or my worries. Never occurred to me that probably this driver would just love to turn on the radio and here's another bearded neurotic trying to work out their life problems during the ride to the airport. Not cool and I apologize to any drivers who happen to watch this podcast. I thank you for your advice. Sometimes you need something more than your Lyft driver. Life is so complex and I don't know how far you're going, but there might not be enough time. At the very least. Not to mention, the odds are pretty good that your driver is not a licensed therapist. Sometimes we need therapy and BetterHelp is where you can go to get incredible therapy online. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US as opposed to Lyft drivers. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences, and our 10 plus years of experience in industry leading match fulfillment rate means we typically get it right the first time. But if you're not happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist anytime from their tailored recommendations. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp.com provides access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of Expertise. Find the one with BetterHelp our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com Duncan that's better H E L P.com Duncan like heard something about someone that I liked and been like oh my God, they're monsters. And they're like none of it's true and and and completely plays into the point that you're making, which is these hypno rectangles are fucking people up. It's like right aside like I don't like getting obviously I don't like being brigaded and harassed but some very small part of me unfortunately felt some compassion for these people because it's like the world you're living in, that's not the world and that's a scary world that you're living in. You know, a world where billionaires are co opting Low level podcasters. Right?
- [41:38]
B
I mean, and I understand too, that's the world that many of our senators and congresspeople live in, you know, that believe that there's Jewish space lasers, believe that many of the Mexican migrants have bombs planted inside them that can be detonated from afar. I mean, the kinds of things you hear from our elected leaders, many of them shows that they are in a nightmare. And that nightmare is contagious enough to get them, you know, to get them elected. It's, it's not just, you know, the so called little people that it's, you know, almost everyone is in one form of this nightmare or another. You know, I have friends. I mean, usually the way I try to get people out of the nightmare is by pushing them further in the nightmare. Like I have a lot of friends. Yeah, it does. Sometimes it could get. The only good trip is a bad trip sort of thing. Like, I got friends who are trying to get citizenship in Europe, you know, for, because, you know, they're afraid they'll get cracked down on by, by government and, or by fascists or, you know, are persecuted because they're Jews or something. And so they're going to go to Europe. And I'm like, dude, Europe, like, look at this. This country's got a fascist leader. This one's got that. These ones are talking about that way. This one's got neo Nazi. It's like, where are you going to go? And it's like, you know, it's like, it's the way, the extent to which we are networked as a society, as a civilization now kind of means we sort of all make it or none of us make it.
- [43:22]
A
Right.
- [43:23]
B
You know, there's not like a retreat like that. I would say if you've got indigenous, you know, leanings or whatever, then the object of the game is not to get in an airplane and go fly to some indigenous people and live with them, but manifest your indigeneity, whatever that means to you right here, right now. The way you look at someone else's eyes, with the way you source your food, the way you treat your land.
- [43:47]
A
It'S like, it's pretty obvious, you know, I think one thing you said earlier, which I would love it if everyone just started doing this. So I will make a universal decree. This is now law.
- [44:00]
B
Oh, good. See, fascism for good.
- [44:02]
A
Fascism for good. FF I like it.
- [44:07]
B
I like in your, in your live things. I like it. Your live ones. When you make a law, make a rule, that's how it breaks the rule that you go, you're banned, self banned for five. Right? But then you always forgive them. Usually by the end you go, okay, five days. Okay, five hours. Okay, okay, you're free.
- [44:26]
A
What's fascinating is they'll do it. What's fascinating is they'll do it. They'll self ban. But here's my decree. I think what we all need to start doing, and we will do this, this is now the law is whenever somebody commits violence, political violence, any kind of violence, let's just say political violence, how about this? Instead of trying to figure out was it a groiper, was it a conservative, was it a trans person, how about we do this? That person is not on our team. Whether you're right or left, that's not us. Whatever that is, we'll come up with a new name for them. A universal. I don't know what that name could be. I don't know what that name could be, man. The Malafites. That was a malified.
- [45:14]
B
A Malified.
- [45:15]
A
So if you decide to like use violence to fucking hurt people, it doesn't matter who you voted for. That's irrelevant. You are now a malified. And we don't like malified it. It's not going to work out whether it's a leftist malified, a right wing malified, a groiper malified, a nihilist malified, a Christian malified.
- [45:34]
B
Right. What if it's state sanctioned? Malified. That's where it gets tricky. Right? So I guess you got a judge then. Yeah, we can't be the judge of it, but it's like, okay, so if you've got a bunch of recently hired ICE agents with masks, so first day, it's like, oh, and you're just a little too enthusiastic and kind of shoot a couple people or whatever.
- [46:02]
A
The seal of Malefica.
- [46:04]
B
Exactly.
- [46:05]
A
It's a certified malefyte. Well, you know what? I think it's a fair point. But. But this is a cop out. Gonna admit it? Cop out. Copping out. Phase one. Phase one. Let's start with us. If somebody who isn't doesn't have the seal of Malefica.
- [46:27]
B
Yeah.
- [46:28]
A
Does a violent act instead of who are they? I guarantee it was a fill in the blank. I guarantee it was an immigrant. I guarantee it was a trans. I guarantee it was a maga. Instead of doing that, let's just say that's not us. It's. It's. That's not us. And, and so, yeah, so that totally stop being benefited. Right?
- [46:49]
B
And even if they claim it's us, it's not us. It's like, it's. That's. They're from a. And I, I agree, they're from a different tribe. They're from the tribe of violence.
- [46:59]
A
Yeah.
- [46:59]
B
And that's, that's something else. And whether they did it for the right or the left or the, the trans or the anti. Trans or the. For fascism or for antifascism, they're all team violence.
- [47:11]
A
Team violence.
- [47:12]
B
They're all team violence. And that's not, that's not our team.
- [47:15]
A
Yeah. Then. Then what? Then we're not going to fight each other over this or that. Well, it was a, it was the poisoning of Lord Gar that got into their mind. They fell under the hypnosis of the, of the. Of Baphomet.
- [47:27]
B
Right.
- [47:27]
A
Instead of this.
- [47:28]
B
Right. But the problem is now, and this is more of a, a bigger political thing, the elements of our government now, in order to enact the plan that they're trying to enact, really do need to create a frightening, violent enemy in order to exercise authoritarian control. And that's. That makes it tricky. That makes it tricky. But I agree, if we can keep doing that and saying it doesn't matter, it's just team violence, just team violence, then the response of government would need to be different. If we can't get activated that way, then they would need to respond differently.
- [48:19]
A
Right. Because for the thing you're talking about to really work, it needs a lot of fear and it needs a lot of division. Once we get those two things and once we've like created and this is the thing I'm sure you've experienced, I, I experience it all the time, which is a demand for like, declare what team you're on. Just say it. Art thou a conservative witch? Art thou a leftist? Say what you're with. And it's like, you know, what wing are you with? You know, and to me, this creature that we're living on, it's got a lot of fucking wings and it's a ball and it's, you know what I mean? There's a lot of flapping wings and that invitation to take a side and narrow yourself, shoe all yourself into this place, what the next step is. Therefore, you should also accept all these other ideas that go along with that side. It's not just that you're like, you know, I think most countries have some kind of immigration laws. I can understand why you'd want to have that. But do I think it makes sense to separate parents from their fucking kids? Does any of this shit look good to Me? Do I? No. I remember when Fox was doing Crisis at the Border, it was one of the most surreal things to watch. As they're doing a piece on Crisis at the Border, creating an image of these people is like, essentially like Mordor. Like these people are coming in from Mount Doom, man. These are like, they're coming to eat. Eat. Right.
- [49:57]
B
We're using zombie apocalypse imagery to describe foreigners and migrants. That's preparation. You know, unfortunately, that's preparation for climate change.
- [50:11]
A
When they're saying it, they cut to these monsters and you see these monsters. These monsters are pregnant women holding their children who are crying. And they, they didn't even try to edit that. They didn't. You. It's like at least cut to someone who looks mildly sinister. Why are you cutting to this family? The kid's got shitty fucking shoes because he's been walking so long. They're fucking. Clearly like, just like this sad mix of hopefulness and despair and it's like. And, but, but because that's there. Does, does that mean like open borders? No, but let's have a little fucking nuance here, man.
- [50:48]
B
Can we have a little problem?
- [50:49]
A
Nuance.
- [50:49]
B
That's. That's the problem. So even though we think it's really complex, it's not. It's complicated, but it's super, super simple. Everything digital is right or left. Digital is like a spin cycle, pushes everything to ones and zeros. So all of the things, all of the systems by which we've kind of gotten by over these last centuries are being stress tested by. Wait a minute, is it this or it's that? Is this a border or is it not? And it's like, well, it's always been a little, you know, everything is like that. Everything is. Not that it's cheating, it's just that it's not absolute, it's a border, but it's sort of semi permeable because we kind of need workers to do the grapes and stuff. And then we let them, then they go back and yeah, I can get it for you wholesale. You know, it's like, it's a little bit, you know, everything is like that. Nothing is really fair. You know, somebody at a club, you know, a young comedian finds you, becomes your friend, whatever. And yes, they do get an advantage because you tell the manager at the club, Johnny's actually pretty good, you should give him a thing. Sorry, it ain't fair. It's always, it's always like that. And we're growing so intolerant of that. We've become so absolutist in our understanding of things, which is why we move toward either totalitarian leftism or authoritarian rightism. It was like, because it's got to be a thing. And the fact is, there is no system that works. Not like a checkerboard. It's way more weird. My Celia and all. And the thing you have to develop is not the ideal system. What you have to develop is the sort of emotional slack. You need some play in the wheel, you need margins, you need a shoulder on the road. You know, even though you should stay in lane, you still kind of need a shoulder there just in case something happens. I'm given the fucking thing.
- [52:51]
A
That's it. Slack. The system is too tight. We need slack in the system. It's like. That's the craziest thing about it is the promise of tech was more slack, but it's the opposite. It's had the opposite effect. It's when we connect on the phone, we get tight. It makes you stressed and balled up, and you get nervous and scared. And the conversations, they just inevitably get stuck in these, like, one of these two lanes.
- [53:23]
B
And these lanes, the lanes are not real.
- [53:27]
A
They're not real.
- [53:27]
B
The lanes are the stuff. It's like way back in this present shock book, which I keep thinking about now, I was talking about the difference between living on the ticks of the clock or living in the duration of the second between the ticks. And these things that we're talking about are the ticks. They're the. That's not where life happens. Life happens between. That's when the second occurs between the ticks. That's where you and me and love and sex and mushrooms and. Yeah, and making the thing with your neighbor. That's where all that lives. And this. This television zone, this Internet zone, the certainly the social media zone are pure tick. They're pure tick. And that's why you got to be on this ticker, that ticker. And it's like, that's not the place where you breathe. That's not where you metabolize. And if you spend your life on the ticks, you're gonna die going, what the just happened? Where was that? You know, and our whole nation is moving on to those sharp. It's like the longitude and latitude lines. It's like, that's not the planet. Those are lines.
- [54:28]
A
It's not the planet. Planet. It just. And. And it's. It's that. That. If you ask me, man, this is 100% because of. Of not enough regulation for technology. This is. You Know, I, I, God, I wish I could remember the name of the book. It's like the history of drugs in the United States. And, you know, back when cocaine was in Coca Cola, you know, and there was a disorder which I think was depression. It was their term for depression, I think they called it. I can't remember.
- [55:01]
B
It was a really like malaise or something.
- [55:03]
A
Yeah, they had some. Yeah, and they were saying that people are getting this affliction because things are beginning to move so fast. And fortunately for us, we found the cure. Yeah, cocaine. Everybody's doing blow. You could go to the pharmacy, get cocaine, it's in your Coca Cola. And for a second people are like, this shit is gonna save the world, baby. Freud's fucking shooting coke into his veins. Surgeons are like on blow, coming up with ways to sterilize their equipment. And then, you know, just like what we're discovering now as it turns out, cocaine, it's not a good long term plan for happiness. And then regulation happens. Cocaine becomes illegal. And because it was poison, and here we have some combination of drug and radium, you know, we have this beautiful glowing thing that aside from like the technology itself, it's a host to a legion of algorithmic based manipulative apps that are fucking people's heads up. Clearly we know it fucks up kids. We know that. It's like kids who get screen time, it fucks them up. But because of what you were saying earlier, it's not going to get the kind of regulation it needs because or.
- [56:24]
B
When it does, it gets politicized. So the governor of New York, this woman, Kathy Hochul, she's a Democrat and she got the law in New York that kids are not allowed to use their cell phones during school.
- [56:37]
A
Great law.
- [56:38]
B
Yeah, you would think. But, you know, in what we could loosely call the Austin contingent is very activated by that as.
- [56:46]
A
What do you mean? What? The ostrich intention. Don't, please, don't fucking pile on the Austin. Don't join that fucking mob. We're idiots. Let me just say this, this is what my wife says about the current, like furious attack on the, quote, Rogan sphere, which is, by the way, talk about it. That ain't a fucking sphere. You know what I mean? The idea of this crazy, crystallized, unified group of Austin comedians, right, like you're.
- [57:18]
B
WWE team that comes in. Oh, it's the Austin brothers.
- [57:23]
A
My friend, my friend was pointing out the, like, you know, in the, in the green room. Everybody thinks we're all like reading Minecomf or some, you know, we're playing like. And he's like, dude, you got people in the green room who voted for Jill Stein. You got people who didn't vote, people who.
- [57:39]
B
But you know who I would argue is most responsible for that is Mark Zuckerberg. Because Mark Zuckerberg, when he tried, when, when Trump was elected and Mark Zuckerberg wanted to show, now he's going to be a bro rather than a lefty. He announced, you know, a bunch. I'm going to be more like Twitter. We're going to. I'm going to be more masculine. You know, I think this is toxic. And the third thing he said, I'm going to move the content management team from San Francisco to Austin. And that was a way of trying to socially signal that he was going to be, you know, you know, more musk, like in, in what he was doing. Unless, you know, Reid Hoffman, like, I guess less Clintonian. And it was like, dude, you, you hurt yourself and you hurt Austin in that, you know, because Austin, whatever. Austin is also friggin. This is what I talked about in my south by talk. It's. It's fringe wear. It's Rick Linkletter. It's Mike Judge. Yeah. It's Bruce Sterling. It's. It's. Everything weird is in Austin such a.
- [58:51]
A
Such a wonderful gumbo. It's a gumbo of freaks out here. And the, the. So the, the. But again, it's more the same bullshit. It's like, you know, my wife says, I just wish these people could just spend like 15 minutes with you idiots. Like, I wish she could just like be around you guys and just recognize where.
- [59:15]
B
No, but the thing is, whether it's through fault of his own or not, Joe Rogan as an entertainer, comedian, podcast host. Right. And I think he would, he would say he's got, he's no closer to God or genius than you are. Right. He's. He's a human.
- [59:33]
A
Yeah.
- [59:34]
B
He ended up with so much. With an undo, an unhealthy for everyone amount of, of political leverage. It created a very brittle kind of a fulcrum, you know, to have something that matters that much is it. And there was no way, and not that there was anything he could do to dissipate it. Was he gonna stop it? I'm gonna stop my show. It's gotten too important, you know. But it was like ended up magnifying something that, that didn't have to be, well, magnifying.
- [60:08]
A
I'm glad we're talking about this because this is, this is because I've thought About this, obviously, because I'm a comedian, and I know comedians. I've been around comedians for over 20 years, and I know there is. It's a personality type. There's a lot of qualities we share. And, you know, we're fools, like, professionally. Right. And so now, what goes along with being a fool is that. And I don't mean it like idiots, either. I just mean, like.
- [60:44]
B
No, no, the classic fool, the one who can speak truth to power in the court and try things out, right or wrong, at least it's gonna make people think.
- [60:53]
A
And so you know it. But also, I mean, like, another quality that goes along with being a fool is curiosity. We're very curious. And this is, you know, how you. How are you gonna write jokes if you're not curious? If you're not constantly analyzing and wondering, is there an Illuminati? What is it like? What would it be? What does the President smell like? I wonder what the President smells like. Smells like. I've never smelled a president. And so. So if. And it'll never happen, but if I got a phone call and they're like, trump wants to be on your podcast, you think I'm gonna be like, no, Hell no. I'm gonna be like, yeah, I gotta smell a president. I want to know what's it like to be around that. I want to see it and hear it and feel it and talk to it and know it. You're not thinking. I want to signal, boost some point of view. If Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, anybody that I was curious about, but especially someone controlling a nuclear arsenal wanted to, like, have a conversation with me, I'm going to say, yes.
- [61:57]
B
No, there's not. That's all true. That's the thing. But the problem. And I still think this is the problem in our civilization, is scale. That you can't scale up to that. To. There's a limit to the scale that a human being should be able to achieve, and not because they're too rich, but because it's too brittle. It's too.
- [62:19]
A
I would never agree with you. You know, I. I would never want.
- [62:21]
B
To be that famous.
- [62:22]
A
Well, because the problem is, is, like, when you start. When you. When you know. Nor would I, like, in the. The. I think that's one of the many things I love about him is, like, he really has managed to, like, not go completely insane from that, whatever that is, like. And. But also the other thing people forget about all of us, and especially like, podcasters, is that we are. We're, like, always having conversations and like, you know what I mean? Like, here I am having a conversation with you, a self described. What did you call yourself? Lefty? Pinko? What did you say you were?
- [63:04]
B
I forgot. I forgot something. Nice.
- [63:07]
A
Yeah, it was one, it was wonderful. And in those conversations, change happened. Like my conversations with you have evolved me as a person, you know, and similarly, Rogan or whoever it may be, people don't seem to understand that none of us have fixed or solidified or crystallized in some view, and especially not comedians. But one thing I know, I only speak for myself here, is that whatever phase I happen to be in, whether it's cosmic sailors, let's talk about floating down a different river today. The Nile of your nervous system. Because we're diving into Blue Lotus, one of the most popular plant medicines sold by Minnesota Nice Ethnobotanicals. Wait, don't skip this ad. Listen, a lot of people have heard of Blue Lotus or even tried it. Most come away thinking, eh, that's because most of what's on the market isn't real Blue Lotus. And even when it is, people don't take enough to feel its effects. Minnesota Nice changes that. Their premium Blue Lotus extract is the real deal. And if you take 1 to 3 grams orally within 45 minutes, you'll feel like floating down the Nile on a jeweled barge wearing eyeliner and casually communing with Horus. And it's real psychoactivity, not subtle placebo stuff. Euphoric heart opening bliss. Relaxed but clear headed calm and pathogenic connection. It's amazing for intimacy and deep talks. Dream enhancement, so vivid it feels like a lucid movie. Ancient vibes literally used by Egyptian royalty for spiritual insight and pleasure. And they built the pyramids. Don't want to mess with measuring grams. They've got blue lotus gummies, 300 milligrams each and extract capsules too. Perfectly dosed and ready to go. Head to www.mnnicethno.com duncan and use code DUNCAN22 for 22% off your order. Start with the gummies if you want something playful or dive straight into extract mode if you want to feel what the pharaohs were feeling. Trust me, this stuff works. Thank you, Minnesota Nice. Dabbling in Satanism, whether it's maybe I'm gonna become a Catholic, whether it's, you know what, maybe it's time for me to become right wing or you know what, I'm starting to like this Karl Marx guy. I mean, he did seem pretty prescient in a lot of his analysis that unfortunately when we're in those phases. That's where we're at.
- [66:26]
B
Yeah, but the thing is, the role of the fool in society, though, is at a particular bandwidth. This is why I talk about scale. It's like, Trump is a great comedian, but I don't think a comedian should be president. Right. Because. Right.
- [66:44]
A
Let me let that sink in for a second. Ah, fuck. You know, that's so funny. I'm just. I'm sorry, I don't want to cut you off. I just. Let me let it sink in for a second. I'd be inauthentic if I didn't. Here's why that. Wow. I'm sorry if everyone's already thought this. When I watch him, I have often thought, that's a comic. Like, he's doing stand up. This is stand up. He's got jokes. He's doing some kind of, like, Rodney Dangerfield thing. He's that Charlie Kirk thing you mentioned earlier. It's not like he said, like, Darth Vader, I do not love my enemies. I deplore my enemies. I hate them. With all my. He said it in a really funny way. He's got that grin, that goofy grin on his face, you know, I hate my enemies. I really do. I, you know, hate. You know, I do hate him. Maybe. Maybe you could change me a little bit. I don't know. You know, I just happen to be up here, you know, literally saying the antithesis of the New Testament. You know, I'm just basically spitting in Jesus's face right now by exactly saying I do the opposite of what Christ recommended the world should do. But you never know. I might, you know.
- [68:03]
B
Right, exactly. And that's the way you bring the most dangerous proclamations to a people, is you say it like a joke. And people are like, was that a joke? Oh, yeah, that was a joke. Was it a joke? Until it's not a joke. Right? So it's. It's. Comedy can be used. It's not that comedy is bad and it's up, but comedy can be used to get people used to certain ideas that start funny and then end up believed or real or whatever. And I look at Trump as a master of that, of presenting policies through comedy until they're not, oh, that was a serious proposal or not. No, you know. You know, it's like, you know, Kim Jong Il, My nukes are bigger than yours, buddy. You know? What? What? Is he. No, he's not. Is he? So when comedy is being used as a weapon in that way, we're all. We all end up on this sort of spectrum of.
- [69:04]
A
Well, I don't think Rogan's weaponized comedy. I just.
- [69:07]
B
No, but this comedy can be weaponized by others. But, but it's more a matter of when comedy is being used like that, especially in the field of politics. We do need to, I would argue we need to reclaim comedy for the fools. There was a time Paul Krasner, right, he used to write the magazine the Realist. He kind of invented fake news. When he published, he used to publish half true, half fake stuff. He published a magazine and that after the assassination of jfk, he said that he had a witness who, who saw Lyndon Baines Johnson penetrating the exit wound and JFK's neck on the plane, right? And people friggin believed it, right? And, but, but at least it was coming from a poor fringe San Francisco beatnik dude. It, it didn't quite. It wasn't the headlines any. It was part of this world. It's like that weird safe space we had even for conspiracy theory. I used to love Alex Jones stuff, you know what I mean? When you would get it on like a cd, a bootleg CD and pop it in, it's like disinformation. And it was like, oh, could that be true? Is that I wonder? And the alien, I wonder there was like that art Bell sweetness late night that we had. It was part of a counterculture of thinker people and anything was possible. It's like I feel like what happened is either because Trump became mainstream or Joe got so big, somehow comedy became the figure rather than the ground. It became the subject rather than the groundlings attacking the thing on the stage.
- [70:53]
A
Okay, okay, now here, now I can put this into context because I don't think that's even anomalous. I think it's part of the archetype because this is what I've heard. I don't know if it's true, and I'm sorry if I've mentioned this before to you or on the podcast, but I have heard that there was something they would do with a fool. So every king had the fool, the jester, whatever. And once a year, and maybe this is just a made up story, but it's an archetype.
- [71:22]
B
Sounds good.
- [71:22]
A
Once a, once a year they would make the fool the king. In the morning, the fool would come out dressed in the king's robes. Everybody thought that was fucking hilarious. It's like, look at the idiot, he's like, he's wearing the crown. But because they're cosplaying is the King. People would treat him as the king. Now he was getting all this dignity and respect. People weren't like, you dumb asshole, will you kiss the dog's ass? You literally. I saw you lick the dog's butthole yesterday to get a laugh. You're not a king. Everyone's like, yes, your majesty. And what was fun about it was by the end of the day, the fool had started taking himself seriously. The fool was kind of enjoying the kind of king thing. And that was the funniest part of all, is this solemnity that was suddenly coming out of the fool, because the fool is a fool. And now that people have been treating the fool like a king, the fool's reflection reflecting that back. And then the next day, back to kissing the dog's asshole. And never, you know, but this is part of the archetype, which is unfortunately, because of technology, fools like me, we get to do this. And it would. If you don't have enough media literacy, it would be pretty easy to stop looking at the thing is what it is. And you know what I love about Joe is he's really good at interviewing people. He's one of the best interviewers, I think he really is. His ability to sort of zero in on places that need to be zeroed in on and sort of attacking weak parts of a person's argument. I don't think that you could even call that comedy. I don't think what you're seeing there is like. I think it's just good interviewing. But still, in all, I think instead of creating some kind of limit for the reach that any of us might have via technology, why not figure out a way to remind people that a lot of what you're seeing, whether it's me or whether it's CNN or Fox or Joe or whatever, it might not be as real as it seems in that moment. And that's not bad. That's entertaining.
- [73:49]
B
But it's upsetting, too, for people who, you know, the news has always been compromised. You know, they were. William Randolph Hearst sent America to a war in Guatemala because Chiquita Banana, you know, the company wanted to get rid of a new, duly elected president who was going to reclaim the land for the people. So America invades, saying it's a communist threat and it was them, you know, or saying that, you know, marijuana is bad for you because dupont was making nylon rope and we don't want him, and blah, blah, blah, it's what it is. Or the New York Times and these. All the mainstream media news sources that were obviously Seeded by something like CIA in order to get us into the Gulf War when they weren't really making a weapon of mass destruction and blah, blah, blah, blah. It's always been like that. It's just now that we're sort of waking up to it, there's a kind of a disillusion that goes along with it. Wants to throw out the kind of the baby with the bathwater and believe nothing and go crazy and nihilism. Yeah, we go into a kind of a nihilism. And again. And this is the thing, I'm sure people, you know, I'm going to get more anger from the left for not like challenging that. You know, whether Joe Rogan's a good interviewer or not. No, but I'm not. I was on Anthony is fine. I didn't have a problem with.
- [75:19]
A
Let me just say this. Don't left. Leave Rushkoff attacking Rushka. He's what he is so deeply one of you.
- [75:26]
B
No, I'll get. Yeah, I know it's okay. But I'll get that from, from, from the brittle ones and from the brittle. Right. And whatever. But I, I still think the answer in all these cases is, is what we're talking is more slack, more this sort of self lenience and more live human relationships with other people. You, you gotta. I mean I, I feel terrible that there's so little in our society apparently now like Gen Z. I don't get enough now. That's really not good fucking. Let me just make a case for fucking. Fucking is not just to get laid. Fucking is also. It's, it's a way of, of co. Metabolizing this, this thing that we're going through together. There's a, there's a moment that can happen when you're making love with somebody where you're like oh my God, we're really in this chaotic swirl. But I've found another soul here where you're here, I'm here. And I'm here because it's you and you're here because it's me. And oh my gosh, to be appreciated like that right now, it's like it's important. And there's other ways to get something like that sensation by sitting with people do I mean these all sound like lefty pinko things like ecstatic dance but, but, but campfire s' mores with your kids, you know, and there's things you can do about fucking. Again, you can make a difference in someone's life, including your own with a job in home care. These jobs offer flexible schedules, healthcare, retirement options and free training. They also provide paid time off and opportunities for overtime. Visit oregonhomecarejobs.com to learn more and apply. That's oregonhomecarejobs.com hi, I'm Paula Zahn. Announcing the launch of on the Case the Podcast. Experience the most dramatic true crime investigations in a whole new way. Hear from loved ones on a relentless quest for justice and interviews with the detectives who pieced together the mystery. On the Case with Paul is on the podcast, premiering Wednesday, October 1st. Download it wherever you listen to podcasts. Oh, but the fucking. But it's like these things are so missing from society. It goes all the way back into Bowling Alone, that great book about the loss of clubs and Boy Scouts and things, the kinds of things. If you think back, if you're an adult and you think back to like, just do it as experiment. Best time with your dad, it's like, oh, right, he took me fishing on this boat. We spent this time together. It's like nothing that he got me. None of that. It's just there are these moments you remember the eye contact. You remember those moments. That's what it is. That's the time of your life, you know, man and boy, this other shit, it doesn't, it, it's not that it doesn't matter. It's that there's almost nothing you can do about it except every couple of years show up and vote for, try to vote for the one that's the less awful. But what you can do during the time between those two year or four year intervals, you can make the world a place where it matters so much less who we put up there because everybody getting along, just, just do that. Or another way to say let's take 1% of us in America, that'd be 4 million people. Take 4 million people and dedicate them to understanding the issues. Right? Are you one of those 4 million people? If you want to go be one, get, join the club. Understand the other 396 million of us. Let's both sex and drugs and rock and roll. No, but, but be with each other. Make the meet your neighbors, take care of shit, make the neighborhood nicer, be nice to kids, do some tutoring, take care of the old lady, make a barbecue. There's all these things we could be doing if 99% of us were taking care of each other. Imagine how much less work those 4 million people who are figuring out the problems would have to do. And Gaza and Israel and the Middle east, we're using Less oil. Now we're hanging out with each other more. We're using less AI now because we're fucking and playing cards and enjoying each other. So now Qatar and whatever, those places don't matter so much because we're not buying all that crap from there. And the climate change, whether it's real or not, whatever you believe, we're making less of it. If we're hanging out, you know, playing cards together and having sex, I love it, man.
- [80:20]
A
This is, to me, this is whatever. I don't know where that falls in the political landscape, whatever you just said, but that's where I feel most at home.
- [80:31]
B
Right?
- [80:32]
A
And, and I don't, I don't think I, I hate to think that that's going to be co opted by one side or the other because what everything you just went through is to, is possible. I think it's possible. I believe in your dream. I believe it's possible. Anybody, anybody who's ever God, I'm so sorry to say this, I just, I would sooner smash my remaining ball with a hammer than do ecstatic dancing. But I must say, anyone who's been to like a good underground party coming up on Ecstasy, dancing with a group of people, feeling the, feeling it happen that moment where you realize, I'm not a me anymore, I'm a blob. At this point, I've become a blob. I don't think. I don't even know if the person I'm dancing with is me or I'm them or I don't know what this is. As Jesus said, wherever three or more of you are gathered in my name, there I will be. Something else comes in the room. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Fritz Perle. Suddenly this spirit enters the room that reminds you of what humanity is capable of. And it's way more interesting, connected than divided and way more powerful connected than divided. And if you're singing the song of division, whether it's subtly or whether it's overtly, you are not getting us any closer to that world that you've been writing about and talking about and really believe in. And honestly, it's probably a little dismaying for you right now to look out and see something that seems to be quite the opposite of what you've been teaching us about for a while.
- [82:19]
B
Yeah, I mean, sometimes I phrase it like, oh my gosh, I really failed here, didn't I? But you know, it's funny in Jewish lore and right now it's like, you know, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. It's the high holidays for Jews. There's this medieval poem that they read on. We. They. It's interesting. I said they. That's how alienated I feel from that whole thing right now. There's a poem called Unatana Tokef. And it's this famous poem written in medieval times. Really dark, terrible, you know, when they're all shoved in the. In the ghetto by the Vatican or whatever. And they. It says. It's this famous poem that says, you know, between Rosh Hashon and Yom Kippur, you know, it is written, you know, who will live and who will die, who will get sick and who will be healthy. Who will. This. And, like, God's writing the book of life during this week, like on Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashanah. It is. It. The book's opened, and on Yom Kippur, it's decreed and closed, all those things. And they go through all this, and everybody's like, doesn't want to get to this poem because it's like, oh, this is the really scary shit. Like, you know, God's deciding right now, and I better be on my best behavior and be really pure. Please don't put me in the bad book. Please. Okay? It's like, you know, he's making the list and checking it twice. It's like, it's that, but it's not just for your presence. And except. And I'm like, what the fuck is this thing? Why is this so horrible? Why are the Jews so bad? Why are they. What is that? And then I go back and look at the poem, and at the very end of the poem, it says, you know, this is gonna happen. This is gonna happen. Whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen. And through compassion and care for each other is the only way that we can lessen the decree. So it's like, the shit's gonna fucking happen, right? But we have a choice in how we engage with each other through it. And then. I don't mean it quite this coldly, but it kind of matters less if you're going to live or if you're going to die. It really doesn't matter if you're going to be rich, you're going to be poor, you're going to be right, you're going to be wrong. It's like. Or if the world. If we're going to. If we're going to die individually the way we would hope, or if we're going to all die together in One big thing. Right? We're all going to die anyway. Right? We just don't know if we're going to die together in one moment or separately with little children and other things living on. But it's like, whatever happens, if I'm here for you and you're here for me, that's it. It's still. This is all that Buddha stuff. It's still okay. It's just what's happening. We're here. We're co. Metabolizing it together in compassion and in love. That's what we're called to do. Not to fix the fucking problem, really. Because all the fixing tends to make it worse, but to just be with each other in love. It will be okay.
- [85:15]
A
You did it. You did it. I knew you would. You did it and you didn't fail. You didn't fail. This little temporary moment, it's like, if anything, this moment is going to show us what happens if you go in the opposite direction of what you've been teaching. And maybe that's what we need. Maybe that's what the world needs. We all need that. Maybe we need a taste of like, okay, here's what the opposite looks like. And right, you know? Yeah.
- [85:40]
B
And it's a matter of realizing you cannot be right. You are not right. We are not right. You can't be right. Because logic. This is not a logical universe. This is a chaotic universe with animals eating each other and stuff and little, little things in pain. It's just.
- [85:54]
A
Yeah, it's.
- [85:54]
B
You can't be right in this. So all you can be is nice, you know?
- [85:59]
A
Yeah. This is what Ram Dass said. I would rather be in love than be right. And this is. You know, what do you get from being right? Like, you know, even if you are on paper. Right. But you're using that as a bludgeon. You're using that to humiliate. To show people how dumb they are for. No, there's. No. Your rightness in some regard is wrongness in a million other ways. You're. It's so brilliant what you're saying. And not to say there shouldn't be justice. And we do need to, like, have boundaries and all this stuff.
- [86:36]
B
Compromises. Those are compromises. They're not the thing. They're. Again, they're the ticks. They're not the time. There's stuff we got to do. The fences that you got to build. For whatever reason you have that fence. It's a compromise. You know, it's like God's land doesn't have a division in it, but you got this fence to accomplish something for a moment.
- [86:57]
A
Mr. Rushkoff, thank you so much for this. I will think about this conversation for the rest of my life, like many of our other ones. And thank you so much. I'm so happy we're friends. I'm lucky to have you as well.
- [87:09]
B
Me too. I'm lucky to have you as a friend. Yeah.
- [87:13]
A
Beautiful. How could people find you? Everybody's going to want to tune into your podcast.
- [87:18]
B
Yeah, do that. You're all podcasty people. Go to TeamHuman FM, you know, and, and, and, or find team human on the, the thingy. Whatever thingy that you use to listen to stuff. And that's a gateway drug to all my other things.
- [87:33]
A
And you are the best drug out there. I'd be snorting you and playing cards and sucking on feet till the crows came home.
- [87:41]
B
Excellent.
- [87:42]
A
You're the best. Thank you so much.
- [87:43]
B
Love you.
- [87:44]
A
Love you. That was Doug Rushkoff, everybody. Do subscribe to his podcast. All of his books are brilliant. Links down below. Order some. Tune in. He doesn't. It's not just him, by the way. He's got this incredible community of people connected to him and I think that all of us could use a little bit of what Mr. Rushkoff is putting out in the world. Thank you so much for listening to the dtfh. I'll see you next week. Till then, Hare Krishna.
- [88:17]
B
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- [88:47]
A
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