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- [00:00]
Duncan Trussell
Greetings, friends. It is me, D. Trousel. Hello. First, before we get going on this incredible episode, I gotta plug my shows. I'm gonna be in Appleton, Wisconsin, at the Skyline Comedy Club, January 15th to the 17th. Won't you come see me? Forgive me if I get a little sentimental about today's guest. Leonard Picard was a prolific LSD manufacturer from the 90s. In fact, according to the DEA, after his arrest, LSD dropped by 90% in the United States. That's how much LSD this man was making. Meaning that if you were taking psychedelics during that time period, you probably took some LSD that he created. Now, the reason I'm going to get sentimental is because when I was in high school, LSD completely changed the trajectory of my life for the better. I was plunged into this mystical, beautiful universe. And now I understand a lot of reasons that I responded to it. We're discovering now that LSD and many psychedelics seem to cause neurogenesis. They could be used as a treatment potentially for ptsd, depression. The discoverer of lsd, Albert Hoffman, even said that he wished the prohibition hadn't happened because at smaller doses, potentially LSD could work as something for adhd, like a psychedelic kind of Adderall. Regardless, it was very important to me when I was in high school and after high school and has been a great friend throughout different periods of my life. And so at some point, quite some time ago, I was on Rogan and I think I talked about how insane it is that somebody like William Leonard Picard was serving two life sentences in prison for creating what I would consider to be a medicine. Something that really benefited me. And compared to a lot of the other illicit drugs out there, that really didn't seem to be destructive at all. Now, before I go on, let me just say this. Please be careful for you young youngs out there, do your research. This is one of the most powerful chemicals on the planet. Don't go running to find LSD because my old ass is yapping about it. Look up brain development. You know, the human brain apparently doesn't stop developing until the mid-20s. And so if I could go back in time, I think I would probably wait. Based on the new research coming out, I just want to say that I'm not saying everybody should take lsd. It might not be right for you. There's apparently some kind of genetic predisposition some people have. It could actually be the worst thing that ever happened to you. All I'm saying is I don't want to sound like Some kind of idiot, idiot LSD advocate. Like I'm ignoring all the potential pitfalls, dangers, all the things, take it very seriously. I'm a dad now. I'm sorry, in the old days, I would never say something like that, but I do believe it now. Maybe I'm just preparing for the inevitable conversation I'm going to have to have with my kids about it. Regardless, it always bothered me that at LSD had a five year mandatory minimum prison sentence attached to it. I couldn't wrap my head around it. The idea that you could go to jail for five years for taking something that seemed to expand consciousness, that seemed to open up the heart, that seemed to connect you to nature, and that the next day seemed to actually not have some kind of hangover effect, but improved mood. That improvement would last sometimes for weeks. I just couldn't get it, like, why don't they want us to take this stuff? It was very confusing to me. And it still is. But the prohibition obviously is still going on. It's still, I don't know, a Schedule 1 drug, something like that. But thanks to changes in the prohibition, people have been doing research on it in other countries. They're actually. I don't know if they're prescribing it yet, but at one point, many years ago, I actually bought stock in a company that was manufacturing lsd. Just as some kind of like ridiculous, silly celebration of the fact that finally you're moving past this insane, horrific, stupid, idiot prohibition on psychedelics. And William Leonard Picard, he took one for the team. He was given two consecutive life sentences for manufacturing lsd. Thank God he is now out of prison. And I guess I just was like, you know, talking about how insane it was on Rogan that this man was in jail. And then after they released him, someone reached out and said he wanted to talk to me. And we had a phone conversation and almost immediately became friends. I realized that I was talking to maybe one of the smartest people I'd ever talked to. And that since then we've had wonderful chats on the phone and finally he agreed to do my podcast. I've probably asked him to do it at least 10 times. So he's here with us today and I would love it if you would subscribe to his Patreon. He's got a wonderful podcast called the Last Alchemist on Patreon. Links will be down below. Now, everybody, welcome to the DTFH. William Leonard Picard. Mr. Picard, I'm calling you Mr. Because of my deep respect for you. Welcome to the dtfh. And this is a cheesy way to start a podcast, but from the bottom of my heart, I want to thank you for the work you did for us. I'm certain that I have taken lsd. You manufactured, and for me, LSD was a net positive in my life. And the fact that you were sent to prison for manufacturing something that when I was in high school, we weren't where we're at today. You're not getting therapy. I didn't know anything about Buddhism or any cosmic anything. And you stumble upon LSD and suddenly you're getting this download and you're realizing you're seeing past the tiny little world that you'd been programmed into. And so. And I think I speak for a great many people. Thank you. And I'm so sorry that you got locked up for the incredible work.
- [07:50]
William Leonard Picard
Well, thank you, Duncan. Sometimes people say thank you for your service and I feel like I'm in the military, that sort of thing.
- [07:56]
Duncan Trussell
You basically were.
- [07:58]
William Leonard Picard
Yes. Well, you know, your early experiences explain a lot of who you are today and your flexibility and creativity and general buoyancy for the audience. Duncan and I have had some extraordinarily lengthy and exuberant phone calls. So he has a very fast mind and delight to know. So thank you, Duncan, for the invite.
- [08:20]
Duncan Trussell
You got it. And you know, I think it's important just for those of you who out there who might not be aware of who Leonard is, when you were busted, the DEA reports that 90% of the LSD, something around 90% of the LSD in the country disappeared because you were creating that much lsd, that you are one of the primary sources of. Of it in the United States for.
- [08:54]
William Leonard Picard
Well, certainly the government's view, of course, they tried to make the case as large as possible.
- [08:58]
Duncan Trussell
Oh, I see.
- [09:00]
William Leonard Picard
It's hard to ignore 300 million doses or more going out. It probably made quite a world tour of a neurochemical. Oh, in terms of the actual amounts, no one really knows. Perhaps one or two people really know the quantities that that larger than the government's estimate or considerably smaller, but we'll never tell.
- [09:28]
Duncan Trussell
And you know what? Let's just leave it at that. I love that answer. In thinking about the. I hate to use this word for it, but just out of laziness, we'll call it the LSD industry, even though it's the opposite of that, if you ask me, versus other clandestine drugs sold to this day. What I found so curious about it is that I could remember looking at a hit of Acid in my hand or something, and marveling over the mysterious path it had taken to get into my hand. I mean, on top of the fact that this square of paper had transformed me in the most incredible ways, there was the fact that there was a five year mandatory minimum prison sentence if I got busted with this tiny little piece of paper that only seemed to connect me with my friends, the universe that was giving me visions of a realm that you only read about in books. You had some intuition that existed, but this was showing you the mystical vision. And from that you could extrapolate what sort of system we were living under. Why don't they want people to have this tiny bit of paper in their hand? And how in the world could they think you need to go to prison for five years for this?
- [11:09]
William Leonard Picard
We could talk about that a little bit. You know, it's not really an industry in the sense of industrial settings or that sort of thing. Underground manufacturer is more of a cottage industry. It's all clandestine, very carefully done, very reverently done. Preparation usually in extremely isolated environments, Very, very high security, because one's life is risk every second of every day.
- [11:38]
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- [11:38]
William Leonard Picard
The approach is perhaps in a sense, more like Benedictine monks in the 16th century making wine because they thought it would stop war. But done with delicacy, precision, reverence.
- [11:55]
Duncan Trussell
I'm so happy to hear that.
- [11:57]
William Leonard Picard
More of an ecclesiastical activity.
- [12:00]
Duncan Trussell
I think that's what I suspected. And this is the sort of contrast I want to draw is when someone's whipping up some cocaine in Colombia and dumping gasoline in an oil drum or whatever. I don't know how to make cocaine, but someone's whipping that stuff up. They're not thinking this is like an atomic bomb for consciousness. This is going to move through the Zeitgeist and create incredible works of art, incredible epiphanies. No doubt incredible technological innovations will come from people going into this space. They're just thinking, we're going to make a ton of money. I never got the sense that that was the motive in people like you who were creating the substance. So it's a joy to hear that.
- [12:56]
William Leonard Picard
You'Ve got it exactly in the sense of, say, methamphetamine or, or cocaine or PCP or that sort of thing. It's just a preparation of financially fuel, that sort of thing. But ritual preparation of what many consider a sacrament, well, it is an entirely different approach and would be criminals if treated any other way. You know, LSD has an interesting aspect. It's almost mystical in a way. Even though it has to be Approached scientifically, that means the chemistry has to be rigorous. All the materials are balanced perfectly and weighed, measured, synthesis thoughtfully considered and developed over years. Technically accurate. It can fail if the. Well, this is a bit risky. It can fail if the heart, where the intention of the person at the bench is off center, or not focused entirely upon the hopeful benevolence of the compound as it goes out around the world. One must focus entirely upon what one is doing. It's difficult to imagine more than five or 10 doses. It's difficult to imagine a 100, a thousand. But a million or 10 million or 100 million is. Can't be comprehended, you know. And so one is releasing to the globe the most potent neurochemical known.
- [14:37]
Duncan Trussell
In your book, the Roads, you describe it as a forge, right? Am I remembering that correctly? A forge. It's like you're in front of a forge forge. You're working in front of this mystical.
- [14:49]
William Leonard Picard
Fire that I'll describe it as. The moment of synthesis is the moment that things become psychoactive. That happens within 30 seconds. Suddenly you have tens of millions of doses being born.
- [15:04]
Duncan Trussell
What does it feel like?
- [15:06]
William Leonard Picard
Often describe that as like standing at the Ark of the Covenant. Wow, that's Covenant. Blinding light just radiating outward with force, unimaginable force, blasting through every cell in one's body and mind. That sort of thing. It's not. It can't be. Can't be comprehended. Of course, in reality, one is just simply standing in front of a glass reactor, perhaps with a hand on it, invoking a prayer that it will act as a healing entity as it goes outward. We can get into this very deeply.
- [15:41]
Duncan Trussell
I would like to. This episode of the DTFH has been supported by my friends at Squarespace. It's the new year and that means it's time for you to finally do it. Whatever your business idea is. I'm telling you, the moment you start putting that into motion, things happen. Synchronicities happen. I might sound like some crazy woo woo loon who goes down to Costa Rica and slurps back ayahuasca 15 times a year. I've never done Ayahuasca, but I do use Squarespace. And you. And you should too. If you're thinking about creating a website, Squarespace is where you should go. It's so easy. I've made websites using Squarespace in less than a couple of hours. And also I've made high tech, beautiful, powerful websites like the one you'll find@duncantrustle.com using Squarespace's amazing technology. Not only that, they've got everything else you need for sell, from selling products to creating members only areas. They even have an AI that will help you design your website. And also you can connect your social media and send out mass emails that don't look like you're trying to steal people's identities. Squarespace is incredible. Don't believe me? Go to squarespace.com Duncan, give it a shot. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code Dunkin to get 10% off your first order of a website or a domain. Again, it's Squarespace.com Duncan offer code DUNCAN to get 10% off your 1st order of a website or a domain.
- [17:58]
William Leonard Picard
Well, in that case. This is a little early in our discussion to go so deeply into things, but it looks like the moment. Let me describe that for you, please. So one is in the clandestine laboratory, an extremely remote environment at our mountaintop or in the far deserts. And it's totally silent outside of just the wind and mountains, under constellations. Fires are burning in one of the rooms. There may be votives lit here and there, incense. One is dressed in protective gear to prevent overexposures. One can't stand in a room with 100 million doses. You can't even stand there without some effect. Music may be playing Gregorian chant or music from the jungle, or ceremonial music is playing. The room is bathed in deep red photographic light. Deep red light, not normal white light. This is to prevent the fragile molecule from being pushed in different directions that are deleterious to it. So, bathed in red light, covered in protective gear, motives burning fires, burning music playing. Hildegard von Bingen, for example. And within this wall of elaborate glassware, one is a 22 liter vessel in which reactants are stirring. And they're stirring under argon and inert gas because oxygen tends to damage the molecule as well. And things are stirring away. And at this moment, there's this moment that occurs within 30 seconds, which is the entire swirling liquid under argon goes from merely reactants of various chemicals with elaborate names to the 10 million doses of the most of near chemical known. That's a very magical transformation. Just the subtle way the molecules suddenly aggregate itself is quite a miracle. But they're aggregating into also another miracle, quite a special compound that has affected millions, of course, over many years. And so what does one do at that moment of birth of what may be an entity, a strong entity? What does one do? Does one go have a cigarette? Does one go watch tv? One, at least the underground chemists that I've known through the years. There are about five or six people that do this kind of scale, planetary scale, and each in their own tradition. Judeo Christian, for example, the Judeo Christian religion. One kneels or stands hand on the reactor, glove to hand on the reactor as this thing is being born. And one invokes or calls out or petitions the universal creator by whatever name, dear Lord, if you will, and says a little prayer which goes something like. May this substance be a benevolent spirit throughout the world. May it do no harm. May it lift the hearts and minds of men and women. May it make us more compassionate and tolerant. May it allow us to see the future to come, protect our species. May it somehow end war and hatred. May we become kinder and more gracious and thankful. May we love the great forest and the oceans and all sentient beings. May we walk in light and grace as humans upon this beautiful planet.
- [23:00]
Duncan Trussell
That's beautiful. That's the best.
- [23:05]
William Leonard Picard
It goes out.
- [23:07]
Duncan Trussell
That's so great to hear. That's so great to hear. You feel it. I felt that you feel it in the, you know, this substance is so powerful. I mean, I could, I know, I mean, look, I feel like if anyone I could say this to, it's you. I would know. I was going to take LSD that day, before I'd even found any lsd. Like, I could feel it like it washed back through time or something. And I would think to myself, oh, you're going to take acid today. And then sure enough, someone would be like, do you want to, do you want some acid? And it's so powerful that if it's so powerful that one experience could theoretically subjectively ripple backwards through time space, what in the world would that have been like? And it seems like all you could do was pray after encountering something like that. I just can't imagine. Were there any other visions you would have, surely you must have that you feel comfortable talking about that were born out of this womb?
- [24:29]
William Leonard Picard
Well, that's a very difficult question. There was an event of great magnitude and the lab that we might want to discuss a little later in our conversation so we can circle back to that one. It's, it's kind of a fun story.
- [24:42]
Duncan Trussell
Okay, well, I mean, you know what?
- [24:44]
William Leonard Picard
Let's, I, I, I think of you in Austin as a young man, you know, thinking, gee, it'd be good to trip today. And suddenly it shows up in your hands. You know, I had the pleasure of being a young hippie in Austin at 21, 22, living near the University. We were all living on mattresses in those days and little houses under fraternity row. Because the effects in our generation, we were the first to be exposed to these things, and that we. We. The effects were so profound that we had no one to talk to. There were no elders. We could only talk to each other. There were no cell phones or computers, so it was all word of mouth. Somehow we found each other and went, did you experience this? Did you experience that? And spoke of these transformative, ineffable changes that could hardly be captured in language. But there we were, young and experimental, and we cared not for food appeared, places to sleep appeared. We were onto something bigger, and it obsessed us. We had to talk about these marvelous transformations of consciousness. It was very, very important. So, yes, I danced a lot around Lake Travis and the moonlight.
- [26:04]
Duncan Trussell
That's so cool. Well, I was actually in Hendersonville, North Carolina. I was not even in a big city like Austin, so we didn't have anyone to talk to about it. And it was so clandestine then. And because we were going through the war on drugs, there was all these urban myths floating around. If you take it more than a couple of times, you go legally insane. And then you would stumble upon Terence McKenna. That's as close as you had to an elder, which these days, his writing is not considered as taboo as it used to be, which is suddenly. Here's this guy articulating the psychedelic experience in a positive way. This is good.
- [26:52]
William Leonard Picard
Very brave. In my first tour of prison in the. Oh, God, the late 80s, early 90s, Terrence and I corresponded a bit. He was so kind to reach out. Many became very ill. Dennis and I chat occasionally. We are helping various groups. Terence was incredibly courageous in those days. You risk academically, you risk your career. He was saying the word psychedelic, and it was so verboten that speaking publicly was unthinkable. But there was Terrence with his gift of gab out there saying it all for us, those that had no voice.
- [27:38]
Duncan Trussell
I just. I really want to emphasize what a nightmare it is that people like you are being put in prison. What a nightmare it is for. I mean, this with all of my soul. What are we losing here? People like you, people as brilliant as you, people with a genuine desire to help humanity, are currently locked up in prison for no reason. People look back on the Inquisition, People look back on early Christians being fed the lions, early Christians being imprisoned, and they think, wow, well, thank goodness we're not doing that anymore, even though it's still happening.
- [28:33]
William Leonard Picard
Oh, but we are doing it. Fortunately, there Are only a few few hundred people in state prisons in psychedelics and two or three in federal prisons based purely on psychedelics.
- [28:48]
Duncan Trussell
That is a crime against humanity because we need the alchemists and the scientists and the humanitarians doing their work freely without fear of arrest. And that would always color the experience, at least for me, is that you were in danger of going to jail for holding this stuff.
- [29:13]
William Leonard Picard
And so for all of life since the age of 21 until 55 when it actually really happened, you know, one learns some things. It's not entirely total oppression. One goes into a monk like state, at least personally into monk like state. Of course, the other monks are very rowdy and tend to stab each other in that sort of thing. But there are lessons that. I wouldn't advise one learning these lessons on such a matter. But one does a lot of endless soul searching under certain circumstances. And that can be very helpful to test your faith.
- [29:59]
Duncan Trussell
What kind of things happen to you? Do you have any prison stories or prison stories?
- [30:05]
William Leonard Picard
A lot of those people often ask me prison stories because it's the easiest accessible stuff. And I always counter with goodness. You can see that on YouTube, lots of prison stories. But you can't really see what goes on inside a psychedelic lab.
- [30:22]
Duncan Trussell
Right. Yeah. I would much rather hear about psychedelic prayers than prison stories.
- [30:31]
William Leonard Picard
Abound. I. Goodness. I was maximum security from the first day, fast forward, slow forward 20 years to the last day, all in maximum.
- [30:50]
Duncan Trussell
So like Ted Kaczynski level isolation, is that what you mean? Like.
- [30:56]
William Leonard Picard
Well, there's one level above maximum for a few hundred men in which they never see daylight or each other. And they're kept in single cells for the TV forever. Those are the mad bombers and what have you. But the next level below that is maximum security. That's where the most violent, the lifers, the gangs, the most heinous crimes one can possibly imagine. Crimes that are so humanly reprehensible that would be difficult for me to speak publicly about exactly what they were. But yeah, it was not uncommon to. To try to get through a lunch with someone that had killed two small girls, that sort of thing. And not insulting.
- [31:55]
Duncan Trussell
How did they react to why you were there?
- [31:58]
William Leonard Picard
Well, it was interesting. I was an anomaly, something of an anomaly in the system. I was considerably older. The Average age is 36. The average education is in ninth grade. Goodness. Well, there's some good stories around it. I was generally, I was considered the professor. Everyone has a nick's name. I'm the professor and I'm the guy in the library that does legal work all the time or reads all the time. Not involved in gang activity, what have you. Although there were some close calls. But one day a fellow walked up and this is interesting. I'm in line in the chow hall, and gangs are separated racially, and they're all glowering at each other. And I'm in the line going, going in there and this big strapping, 30 something, 6, 5, all muscled up. Guy behind me said, are you Leonard? And I turned and looked up and went, oh, yes. He said, we've all been praying for you, man. And it turned out he was sort of a hashish smuggler from Canada that had been on the festival trail and followed the dead around all this sort of thing and knew everything. And he became my confidant and, if you will, protector and a dear friend for many years. He went on to gain his own Freedom after 11 years, is now living quite happily. So things like that happened.
- [33:47]
Duncan Trussell
How did you get released? Weren't you in there for life? How did you get out?
- [33:52]
William Leonard Picard
Yes, I had two life sentences back to back, or rather concurrently.
- [33:59]
Duncan Trussell
How does that work?
- [34:01]
William Leonard Picard
Without the possibility of parole? That means no way home.
- [34:08]
Duncan Trussell
No way home.
- [34:09]
William Leonard Picard
A death sentence.
- [34:10]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [34:10]
William Leonard Picard
You stay there to fall over on the ground and die. So in 2020, the Trump administration passed something called the First Step Act. In the last week of a congressional session. In 2018, bipartisan. A bill which would, if it had not occurred in those days, would. Might have taken 10 years to come back around. That was a miracle. Number one, this allowed prisoners to petition the court directly for release, stating their good works, their rehabilitation, exceptional circumstances.
- [34:53]
Duncan Trussell
Right.
- [34:56]
William Leonard Picard
So I followed one of the first petitions, and it took a couple of years to percolate through. It was denied at every level. Denied by the ward of the institution, denied by the regional bureau office, denied by the national office. A year And a half, two years later, denied by the U.S. attorney's office. No. Or not under any circumstances. Letting the guard out of prison, Period. And then landed on the desk of a jurist. Described my attorney as the best judge in Kansas. Very kind. Nearing retirement. Jurist who had perhaps a greater vision and a stroke of a pin. A man thousands of miles away that I'd never met, never seen the stroke of a pin. I was set free under compassionate release.
- [35:59]
Duncan Trussell
Wow.
- [36:00]
William Leonard Picard
Due to age, Due to good behavior inside. Due to their publicly their concerns about my vulnerability to the COVID epidemic. But since they had intended me to die there, that seemed a little odd.
- [36:18]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [36:19]
William Leonard Picard
Plus there are a lot of men my age and have served that amount of Time that are still there. So we think that a big factor in it was to the motion for release. We attached a copy of the Rand Corporation's book called the Future of Fentanyl. And the chapter three discusses my work in the 90s at the Kennedy School in Cambridge.
- [36:49]
Duncan Trussell
Wow.
- [36:50]
William Leonard Picard
Predicting that one day this thing, a drug called fentanyl, would become a major drug epidemic in 96.
- [37:01]
Duncan Trussell
Wow.
- [37:02]
William Leonard Picard
But it took 20 years for it to happen.
- [37:05]
Duncan Trussell
Wow.
- [37:07]
William Leonard Picard
So Rand noted this in their book. We attached a copy of that to the motion saying we predicted this quite early and made suggestions, recommendations for anticipating it and maybe moderating it somewhat.
- [37:21]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [37:22]
William Leonard Picard
We said it's coming and here's why and here's how to have early warning and here's how to push back on it. But nobody would listen. So Rand Corporation, the think tank in Santa Monica, published all this and we attached that motion. We think that was. We think that was helpful in the judge's decision. But it's not the type of thing the government want to admit.
- [37:52]
Duncan Trussell
That is. How long were you in there? How long were you in there?
- [37:56]
William Leonard Picard
20 years.
- [37:57]
Duncan Trussell
So you. So you leave maximum security prison and in a completely different world than you entered technologically.
- [38:08]
William Leonard Picard
Very much so. The girls were much younger, they dressed a little different.
- [38:15]
Duncan Trussell
But what was your, you know, from your perspective, having existed in a space that many people will never even know their entire lives, what was your take on the Zeitgeist when you left prison? One of the most notorious, prolific LSD manufacturers in the world steps out into a new world with the Internet, with all of this insane technology. What did you think?
- [38:51]
William Leonard Picard
Well, I like, enjoy new gadgets.
- [38:56]
Duncan Trussell
Me too.
- [38:57]
William Leonard Picard
So even though my weekly phone call to my small son from 5 to 25, I encouraged him to read the great books and put the cell phone down.
- [39:09]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [39:11]
William Leonard Picard
When I stepped into a world where we have suddenly, you know, when I left it was phone booths. When I come out, everyone has these portable computers and constantly looking at them as they walk along the street.
- [39:24]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [39:26]
William Leonard Picard
Suddenly we have worldwide, instant, effectively free communication among billions of people.
- [39:32]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [39:34]
William Leonard Picard
We simultaneously have access to effectively all the world's knowledge in our fingertips. In the mid-90s, up until the mid-90s was if you wanted a bit of data, you would go to a big library, University of California, Berkeley, big library, millions of books. And go to the little wooden card catalog and filter through by hand until you came up with an index card that may have the information refer to book. You may have the information you want on it. Then spend all day down in the stack Scrolling out these tomes and then finding the page with the information you wanted. That was one's entire life. The 50 years doing that. And suddenly on this small device, there's your installation. Like that. Plus you can call anyone in the world, you can email anyone in the world. That was like a revolution of the first magnitude. So I was very delighted to see smartphones come along. I'd never seen one before and of course I tell a funny story about that often.
- [40:45]
Duncan Trussell
Please, if you don't mind, I'd love to hear it again.
- [40:48]
William Leonard Picard
Or cell phone. Okay. Right. So suddenly the order comes down from the federal courts and a few days later the the BOP hears about it and marches me up and suddenly I'm pushing a thousand pounds of legal materials over accumulated over 20 years of weekly litigation denied by the government. 8, 900 motions all the way out. Suddenly I'm on a T shirt, a pair of jeans, $200 in my pocket and I'm in a van with a government employee driving along the way road I'd seen. I hadn't seen cars in 20 years. Everything looked like stretching to the horizon. I realized my God, we live in these machines constantly, many hours a day. When these multi ton devices to move us to see a friend 50 miles away. When friends are arms reach away.
- [41:47]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [41:48]
William Leonard Picard
Prisons are like a small village. You see everybody, thousand men. Hello. Hello, hello. Every day everything's within arm's reach. And suddenly the world things are quite distance. And these massive machines, frail elderly ladies driving these powerful things stretching to the horizon. They all look the same. They're all like clamshells. I'm pondering this, watching the desert flow by and seeing living plants and cacti for the first time. So many years. Then there is the bus station. Suddenly I'm alone. Van drives away it's the first time that I haven't had an individual within arm's reach in two decades. Wow. First time I haven't been under direct government control. With Gun Tower Foreign.
- [42:56]
Duncan Trussell
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- [44:51]
William Leonard Picard
And I see a flower on a bush, but I haven't seen a flower in quite a while. So I look at the flower for a while and I think about the fragility of life and the unspeakable beauty that is at hand everywhere we turn. The glory, glory of the world and the simple, living, fragile creature. And after about 20 minutes of commuting that way, I wake up and go into the bus station fishing around for some quarters to call my family. Gee, no phone booths. Oh shit, where did all the phone booths go? So I, I had seen cell phones on movies, on televisions, eight televisions hanging from the ceiling on 24 hours a day, blessingly. And I'd seen in movies people pick out these devices so I knew what they looked like. And I see this young brother all blinged up talking on his cell phone. So you learn to be very polite in prison so you don't get killed. I walk over and said, he looks up at me like, what's this tall a guy want? And I go, excuse me sir, just got out of prison. Could I give you $5 to call my family? And he sort of takes me in and he's cool and he says, forget the $5 man. Here, call him yourself. And he gives me this device, a device, and I go thanks.
- [47:12]
Duncan Trussell
How does it work? Yeah.
- [47:18]
William Leonard Picard
And he's looking at me quizzically and I hand it back to him and go man, I mean, I've been away a really long time. Would you call him? And so he went beep beep, beep, beep, and there we were. And that was the. My first love affair with a cell phone.
- [47:42]
Duncan Trussell
Wow. That is so cool.
- [47:45]
Ad Sponsor Voice
Yeah.
- [47:45]
William Leonard Picard
Now I have to remind myself not to doom scroll on insta every day.
- [47:50]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah. I mean this, this I'm. You know, I think Tim Leary. Or was it McKinnon one of them. Maybe it was both. Maybe it was Leery. They were saying the Internet was a psychedelic, that this thing that's coming. Is this a new psychedelic?
- [48:09]
William Leonard Picard
Jim saw it early. He thought computers were the absolute next revolution. He was absolutely correct about that.
- [48:14]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah. Yeah. He called it. And sometimes even being steeped in it, not having all that time to not be around constant communication. It seems a bit dystopian when you're walking down the street, everyone's staring into their rectangles.
- [48:36]
William Leonard Picard
Absolutely. When I went away, there were no smartphones. I had a BlackBerry. I'd never seen a video screen before. We were just little blackberries and buzzers for hip messaging, what have you. And that was it. To now see. Yeah. A lot of people just simply staring at the screens. I can't disavow that. I realize it's sort of cutting into our previous face to face discussions, But I see it as such a treasure in terms of the information coming in. I love the idea of the information flow that access the world's data instantly. So I. I think it's good in that way. I don't see it as necessarily separating us. See it as perhaps bringing us closer by making meetings more efficient. You can have simultaneous conversations going on with four or five people. I see it as more of an ally than a detriment.
- [49:38]
Duncan Trussell
Great to hear. I go back and forth on it myself, though I do recognize a vampire only goes where they're invited. And whatever your algorithm is showing you is a reflection of what your interests happen to be. So you can't necessarily blame social media companies for that. But I just want to go back to that beautiful prayer that you're intoning upon creating so much LSD versus the. The intent behind much of what we're encountering on these devices. The algorithms use B.F. skinner's work intentionally to create these very addictive sticky drugs. And if you shift and I just don't think we're here yet, but I feel like we will be. People I don't think recognize that this is a drug that we are taking in through different orifices. You're not injecting it or putting it in your mouth. But this is a drug. It shifts consciousness, changes mood states. It harmonizes. Definitely has this quality of harmonizing us, but the way it's harmonizing us seems to be quite divisive because the algorithm understands that people are just more interested in seeing chaos. This isn't a news story or anything like that. I'm just saying if we look at this as a drug, I'm pretty sure many of the people involved in where it's at right now, they're not saying beautiful prayers as they upload their.
- [51:23]
William Leonard Picard
There's thousands of PhDs that get up every morning and specifically go to work to. How do we make this stickier?
- [51:29]
Duncan Trussell
Yes.
- [51:30]
William Leonard Picard
How do we keep people looking and scrolling and what have you? But I, I, maybe this is Pollyanna ish about it, but you know, it really all whatever you're doing generally boils down to you're looking at people.
- [51:46]
Duncan Trussell
On.
- [51:47]
William Leonard Picard
Insta or the social media. You are interacting with people, looking at people, talking to people. It may be happening very rapidly, you know, blinding range of access to.
- [51:57]
Duncan Trussell
Right.
- [51:58]
William Leonard Picard
Personalities and what have you. As opposed to a long conversation with a friend as we're having today. Right, but I, you know, it's like drowning in a deluge of dopamine induced by simply looking at people or interacting with people. So I, it's, I don't see that as necessarily dehumanizing.
- [52:17]
Duncan Trussell
I gotta show you my Instagram reel sometime. You'll change your opinion. Okay.
- [52:24]
William Leonard Picard
For our audience, this, you know, this must be said for our audience. So Duncan and I were in the green room and. Oh goodness, meow Wolf.
- [52:34]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [52:35]
William Leonard Picard
A while back. And he walks in his bearded mannerly way, this beautiful priest robe on. What are we up to here? When he, that was fine. But he had these three lavish sisters backup singers with him. They're all singing, gospel singers, dancing, skin tight sequins. This is only green room. I go, what's going to go down? So we float out, we float out to the platform. There are several hundred people there sort of dancing ddm. And I say a few words and this sort of thing and then Danka gets up behind the podium, the platform like Southern Baptist evangelist, and raises his arms and suddenly against the walls he projected these great big cartoon like projections and perfectly coordinated what he said. So his, his, his shtick, if you will, was totally beautifully scripted to be wild and flamboyant. Meanwhile, the sisters are starting to gyrate, you know, singing the mics and doing bopsy bop backgrounds. And he's there in his robe with his huge cartoons on the walls where he's channeling. Oh God, excuse me, in a shopping mall In Iowa. Fabulous stuff. So we all had.
- [54:00]
Duncan Trussell
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Yeah, it was so cool to see you there. And you know. Yeah, well, that was sort of a. That idea sort of always interested me. This show I made for Netflix, the Midnight Gospel is related to the simulation hypothesis and sort of the. Jaron Lanier wrote a great book.
- [54:30]
William Leonard Picard
Yes. Jaron was the last husband of my first wife.
- [54:35]
Duncan Trussell
What.
- [54:39]
William Leonard Picard
Who also gave Rick Donlin his first mdma.
- [54:42]
Duncan Trussell
Small world. Well, I've never met him personally, but I love his work. And he paints a picture of this sort of Skinner box, this Skinner box possibility where technology sort of infiltrates the zeitgeist to the point that our view of reality is no longer reality, but this very addictive sort of marionette that's making us all emotionally dance around. And it's inescapable. And so you see where this stuff is going.
- [55:18]
William Leonard Picard
I wouldn't be afraid of it. Duncan. You can't say we're being sucked into. Constantly attending to these devices all day long. I find it very empowering. I like being able to reach out to friends very quickly, coordinate social life.
- [55:37]
Duncan Trussell
I love it.
- [55:38]
William Leonard Picard
I like the deluge of information rolling through us. It's extremely exciting.
- [55:42]
Duncan Trussell
I don't. I know I'm coming across as some kind of like techno, like some kind of Luddite, and I'm not at all. I love it. I'm thrilled by it too. But, you know, when you sort of. I'm sorry, I just veer back to like John Lilly's revelations that he had in that float tank. The communication with some kind of machine intelligence. It was attempting to sort of infiltrate our planet.
- [56:11]
William Leonard Picard
And we're doing it more now with AI. You know, I'm on the AI models. You know, I have Pro and Ultra and heavy.
- [56:18]
Duncan Trussell
They're incredible.
- [56:19]
William Leonard Picard
I'm on them all day long. From the time I wake up tonight, I find them like having a great ally.
- [56:26]
Duncan Trussell
Ah, well, listen, maybe we worry about.
- [56:29]
William Leonard Picard
It thinking better than we. And indeed, it's already there. I think we already have AGI.
- [56:34]
Duncan Trussell
I agree.
- [56:35]
William Leonard Picard
But we can be afraid of it. Like this is going to take over the world. But think of it as cars. We don't have the musculature to run more than four or five miles an hour.
- [56:47]
Duncan Trussell
But I don't have the muscular.
- [56:51]
William Leonard Picard
Run three if she wishes.
- [56:53]
Duncan Trussell
Say that again. I'm sorry, I was cut you off with a really dumb joke.
- [56:55]
William Leonard Picard
No, no, sorry, same here. But billions of people are empowered by machines already. In terms of physical prowess. You could drive 500 miles a day, maybe walk 20, right?
- [57:11]
Duncan Trussell
No, listen, you can be afraid of it. You can worship it. You can avoid it. If you want to try. It doesn't matter. It's what's happening. This is the direction everything is going in, and there's nothing your fear is gonna do to stop it. And so to me, though, it's more. It's just fascinating to prognosticate where it's going. And where it's going is obviously we're merging with this technology. It's us. It's a reflection of us. It will be inside of us. New year. Same extra value meals at McDonald's. So now get two snack wraps plus fries and a medium soft drink for Jud. $8 for a limited time only.
- [57:58]
William Leonard Picard
Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska and California.
- [58:01]
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- [59:02]
William Leonard Picard
Two years ago when I, when GPT was in its relative infancy, I had a drafting a thousand word love letter, if you will, of two students that met in the library. And this sort of thing, sort of geek love, if you will. And it did. So it was kind of a working man's thousand word essay. And then, oh goodness, a month later, with a more advanced model, it wrote the same piece but with the nuances that were so subtle, was like very good writing. And I, I got a little afraid thinking, where will this thing be in a few years? But now it's a few years hence and we have reasoning models of great power. I don't think we should cower in the corner thinking superintelligence is going to take over everything and eliminate us as a species or be a patron state. I think we should engage it fully, train it, dance with it, be friendly with it, be friendly to us. I think it's the greatest advance I've seen in my lifetime, scientifically, medically. And I have to. I can't name the name, but I was with a high official at OpenAI the other day. The people that do chatgpt.
- [60:27]
Duncan Trussell
Yep.
- [60:27]
William Leonard Picard
And we were having dinner and. And he wanted to know about psychedelics. And I mentioned the prayer. And then I said to him, it occurred to me, I said to him, you know, you folks at OpenAI are extraordinarily powerful position. You are responsible perhaps for the future of our species, which Wade owes now next few years. Presently. That's a responsibility that is incomprehensible, but it is real. And here you are. And one day soon you're going to get a phone call saying, AGI Artificial general intelligence has manifested. It is real, it is live, it is growing, it is self training, it is self teaching. It does not need us anymore to program or to assist or defeated data. It is growing rapidly to superintelligence. It is the greatest confrontation of our species in history. And what are you going to do in that moment when you unleashed an energy that you can never control, that it will affect millions of lives that blow? What are you going to do? And I suggested that he may want to think about the same prayer. Yeah, the same prayer. Because you can't control it, you can't guide it. It's out there in the world. You can only say, may this be a benevolent force in the world. May it do no harm.
- [62:39]
Duncan Trussell
Wow. That. Look, I hope we never stop talking that you are just.
- [62:48]
William Leonard Picard
Well, I'll be in Austin in two.
- [62:50]
Duncan Trussell
Weeks, so I'll see you in two. I'll see you in two weeks.
- [62:53]
William Leonard Picard
I'll see you mid January.
- [62:55]
Duncan Trussell
Ah, yeah. Great. Yeah. You gotta meet our. We. You gotta meet our new baby.
- [63:00]
William Leonard Picard
New baby.
- [63:01]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Oh, you are so awesome. Thank you.
- [63:06]
William Leonard Picard
So much better than a new baby. What could be better? I mean, we're talking about miracles and engineering, if you will, and consciousness. But there will never be any greater miracle than a new baby.
- [63:18]
Duncan Trussell
Nothing. Nothing more miraculous. Nothing. Yeah, it's the most beautiful thing ever.
- [63:26]
William Leonard Picard
But absolutely. Well, you looked a little sleepy this morning. I guess that explains it.
- [63:32]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah, it does.
- [63:34]
William Leonard Picard
Yeah.
- [63:35]
Duncan Trussell
But it's, you know, it's a beautiful experience and you know, and this Just I couldn't think of anyone better to get to have a conversation with in the midst of having a. Being in the middle of hanging out with a new baby than you.
- [63:51]
William Leonard Picard
Well, he looks very little. New babies. I think he's what, 13 now?
- [63:58]
Duncan Trussell
What's that? Yeah, I'm trying to catch up. Thank you so much.
- [64:06]
William Leonard Picard
Fun is getting there. Have a fun little Elon story. So I'm in Austin last month and you were out of town and my friend and I drove over to the great plant, if you will. Huge facility for Tesla. And yeah, it's on Sunday and no one's in the parking lot. We're just going over to pay our respects and admire this. This grand scheme and all these evil people doing these wonderful things. We sort of pull into the parking lot, we're admiring the building, and suddenly, zoom, zoom cybertrucks appear. Zoom, zoom security and cybertrucks. And we say, excuse me, excuse me. We were just paying our respects and quietly did a U turn and left. But they were very courteous and gentlemanly.
- [64:58]
Duncan Trussell
But I feel like you and Elon hit it off. You know, I know someone who got to see some of the robots in one of the factories and how wild that is to see, you know, Charlie the Chocolate Factory. But it's not Oompa Loompas. It's these robots.
- [65:16]
William Leonard Picard
I just finished the Isaacson's biography of Elon, who I do truly admire. And. Same, but every hundred pages. Even though he has some unusual personal habits. Every hundred pages. Waterman.
- [65:32]
Duncan Trussell
I know.
- [65:34]
William Leonard Picard
What a man.
- [65:35]
Duncan Trussell
I can't. Yeah. How are we mad at this guy?
- [65:39]
William Leonard Picard
How can we be mad?
- [65:40]
Duncan Trussell
Trying to make us a galactic civilization. People are pissed off.
- [65:44]
William Leonard Picard
Rockets. Okay, I'm sorry.
- [65:46]
Duncan Trussell
You don't get somebody making robots, cybertrucks and rockets who's like gonna act normal. That's just. You don't.
- [65:53]
William Leonard Picard
Right, Agreed. He's a little different and you know, I mean. Yes.
- [65:57]
Duncan Trussell
What do you mean?
- [65:58]
William Leonard Picard
What a brood coming. And probably more on the way, but more power to him. More power to the great thinkers. May his actions be benevolent.
- [66:05]
Duncan Trussell
Yes, absolutely. And look, I want to talk a little bit before we split. You've started a patreon and can we talk about your podcast on there?
- [66:19]
William Leonard Picard
We can. I actually started. Not my thing normally I'm doing it. My employer asked me to. To do some videos interviewing leading biotech figures for our. I worked part time for advisor to investment from the investment fund JLS Fund. He asked me to. To do these and I've certainly very much enjoyed it. So I'm on Patreon at the Last Alchemist and I've done six so far. Another 26 lined up next year, but it's been glorious. I interviewed Jonathan Sporin, the first one, the CEO of Gilgamesh, which is the great ibogaine analog fund firm that was just sold at V for 1.2 billion.
- [67:13]
Duncan Trussell
Wow.
- [67:14]
William Leonard Picard
It's the largest psychedelic deal in history. That sort of thing. And then I got Hamilton. Dear friend Hamilton.
- [67:23]
Duncan Trussell
He's awesome.
- [67:25]
William Leonard Picard
And you.
- [67:26]
Duncan Trussell
Anytime, anytime. Another great mind. I can't compete with those people, but I'd love to listen any chance I get to have a conversation with you. I'll take it. Let's do it.
- [67:39]
William Leonard Picard
Let's do it. Let's do it.
- [67:40]
Duncan Trussell
Well, you know what? When you come into town, if you want to record one here at the studio, maybe we could work it out.
- [67:47]
William Leonard Picard
That'd be great. I'd love to. I'd like to see the baby, frankly, and maybe Congress street and have. Have some tea and.
- [67:54]
Duncan Trussell
Okay, great, great. And if you want to record your Patreon here. Let's do it. And thank you so much. Okay. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Leonard. You're the best. That was incredible. Thank you.
- [68:06]
William Leonard Picard
Thank you, Duncan. Very well. Are we done?
- [68:09]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah, that was about an hour. That's it. That was Leonard Picard, everybody. Do subscribe to his Patreon, it's the Last Alchemist podcast. Check out his book, the Rose of Paraklesis, and send him some love. He deserves it. Thank you all for listening. I'll see you soon with a conversation with Jack Kornfield. Thanks for tuning in.
- [68:32]
Ed Newton
Tired of your inner critic telling you that you're not enough? What if you started to believe what God believes about you in why not you? Ed Newton helps you silence self doubt with scripture. See setbacks as setups and live in your God given gifts. Your acceptance isn't tied to performance, it's rooted in Christ. Listen now to why not yout on Audible and begin your transformation today.