B (3:52)

Well, thanks. Yeah.

A (3:54)

So you have blessed us or are about to bless us with a book that I'm sure everyone is immediately gonna want to buy. People like me, especially who, when we read great writing and then sit. And then we sit down and think, I'm gonna do great writing today, it'll be real and positive. And then an hour later, you read what you wrote, and you just feel like jumping into a lawnmower blade. And you have a book on writing coming out. And I am going to be one of the first buyers of that book, I hope.

B (4:31)

Well, yeah. Can I just tell you about it briefly, since people associate me with bird by bird. Right.

A (4:37)

Yep.

B (4:38)

Which was every single thing I knew about writing and life. But 30 years ago. And then I met Neil. Neil Allen, 10 years ago. And he had these rules that he had amassed over the years. He'd been a journalist with a bergen Record for 10 years or more, and they were. They were 15.

C (4:58)

5.

B (4:58)

5. Whatever. Whatever.

C (5:00)

I'd been a journalist for 15 years.

A (5:02)

Guys, can I be a. Let me be a complete jerk here. And you don't have to do this. We'll deal with it. You have an AC running, I believe.

B (5:08)

Oh, heater.

A (5:09)

Oh, yeah, yeah. It'll just make it sound better. I'm sorry. If you start getting cold, turn it back on. Thank you. I'm sorry. Please continue.

B (5:17)

Okay. So I met Neil 10 years ago. Sorry. And he had these 36 rules for improving Your sentences, like use strong verbs and. And question transitions and get rid of all the little tiny words that don't add anything to a sentence. And they were brilliant. And of course, I immediately hijacked them and started handing them out to all of my Bird by Bird workshop people. And then a couple years ago, he put them into book form with an essay or a meditation on each rule, and it was really brilliant. However, I sort of bitterly asked him one day if he hadn't noticed that I knew something about writing, too, and trying to save the marriage. He admitted that he did know this, and I asked if I could write my responses to his essays on the rules and add my 2 cents and add my examples and add some prompts of my own. And so, little by little, this book, Good Writing, came into being.

A (6:17)

Wow. So this book is like a sort of. It's you two merging together. That's incredible that you two have become a super organism. That's amazing. Was that.

C (6:31)

I think we. I think you'll notice if you read it, it's more like we've become. Do you remember there was a radio program? You wouldn't remember, but there was a radio program that had characters called the Bickersons. So the book is kind of bickering in a call and response format.

A (6:49)

That is the first thing. That's the first thing that comes to mind is that it's challenging to collaborate with anybody. But for two writers who live together to collaborate on a book about writing, was there any trepidation when you realized there really wasn't?

C (7:10)

You know, we joke about it, but the fact. My only trepidation was that I would kind of ruin Annie's brand that to the. That's got Bird by Bird right there in the center of it. And that this isn't Bird by Bird.

A (7:25)

Right, Right.

C (7:26)

This is. Bird by Bird isn't just. Isn't a craft book. It's not just about how to go about becoming a writer. It's about life, and it's about spirituality, and it's about suffering and vulnerability and all sorts of things that make it a classic. This is a. Not a technical manual, but the rules themselves that are the core of the book are technical rules, basically for improving sentences. So this isn't about becoming a writer. It's got some of that mixed in a little bit because we can't help ourselves. It's really about the second draft. It's what happens when you've got something that's grammatical and now you want to pump it up. Now you want to make it not just grammatical, but a little more persuasive. Get the, get the sentence so delightful that somebody's going to read the next sentence after it.

A (8:19)

Yeah, the second draft. What a nightmare.

B (8:22)

Oh, no. See, I live for this. The first draft for me is where I realize it's all hopeless. It's all over for England. My career is over. We're going to end up living with my grandson at the rescue mission, eating government cheese. But when I have a second draft, it's always the same problems. It's way, way too long. It's long by 30%. It's overwritten. I'm, you know, I'm like you. I'm just a desperate, born to die people pleaser and I just am shoehorning in stuff right and left so people will think I'm more educated than I am and that I'm not a buzz kill and stuff like that. And the second draft is more like Swiss watchmaking, where you go through and you take out half of it, you know, and you, you know, I want to just add that Neil's rule. Neil is a really classic writer. He was a journalist, so he is able to write sort of on command. And he writes these rules way that whether you're writing a grant proposal or a long email or a memoir, screenplay, whatever, that they'll work sentence by sentence and paragraph by paragraph. But I'm the third grade den mother, you know, I bring in the cupcakes when it's anybody's birthday and I say to people, you can do this. And in fact, if it's on your heart to write, you damn well better do it because it's going to hurt you for your whole life if you don't. And here's what I would do, and here's how to start and here's a great prompt. And then you can make it better if you're observing what, you know, who I mean, Neil has to say. So it's, it's really a conversation with both of our skills sort of, sort of merged. And Neil started to say. Neil said there really wasn't a lot of anxiety or about working together because he'd written this really powerful, helpful book. And I got to go in and just add everything I could think of or disagreed with or examples I thought people, or mentions of writers people should read if they want to learn how to do dialogue better or if they want to learn, you know, whatever. So, you know, there were a few times where we disagreed on certain sections. But, you know, if you read the book, you'll See that I always get the last word.

C (10:37)

Of course.

A (10:38)

Of course. But one thing I'm interested in when it comes to this sort of like what you're saying is like the second draft, it's more technical. But I'm curious about this because especially these days, you know, we're all looking. Everything's in a state of, like, bizarre flux, and yet there's these certain principles that seem timeless. And I'm really curious your thoughts on that when it comes to writing, because you're basically pointing out a sort of meta structure that I imagine would work, you know, 500 years ago and will probably work 500 years in the future. What is that?

C (11:22)

Yeah, we talk. We talk about that a little bit toward the, Toward the end of the book. And it is a curious thing that the structures that we have for the arts, whether it's writing or painting or whatever, are pretty hidebound. They've. They have lasted for. For many, many years. Novels still follow the same structure that they did 200 years ago, right? Where every half page to page and a half, you have to torture your protagonist anew, right? Every. Right. It has to be. It's basically one conflict after another conflict after another conflict compressed, you know, a hundred or more conflicts compressed into 250 to 350 pages, right? And there's no way around you can write experimental fiction, but nobody reads it, so there's no way around that structure. Similarly, for sentences, what worked 500 years ago works now. A vivid ver. The reasons for that, right? Say, one of the. The principal rule of all is vivid over dull verbs, right? A dull verb is I. I walk to the store. A vivid verb says I trudged to the store, right? When I say trudge, we know I'm somehow reluctant or slow or something. There's more going on than walking, and I'm bringing the person more specifically into the scene. So almost all of the rules.

A (13:18)

This episode of the DTFH has been supported by Ethos. Ethos makes getting life insurance fast and easy, 100%. Online, you can get a quote in seconds, apply in minutes, and get same day coverage. There's no medical exam. You just answer a few simple health questions. You can get up to 3 million in coverage. Some policies are as low as $30 a month. As of March 2025, Business Insider named Ethos the number one no medical exam instant life insurance provider. Ethos has 4.8 out of 5 stars on true pilot with over 3,000 reviews. Listen, you know what? I would watch life insurance commercials and sort of like roll My eyes, I'll be honest. So if you're one of those people, I get it. But I finally somehow, by some miracle, got life insurance. My old one, bald, diabetic ass got life insurance. And truly, there is a really. I don't know how to put it. There's something very comforting in knowing that, you know, there's some protection for my family there. I know that sounds like so like old man to say, but you might be surprised at the difference it makes. It really does. You just feel better. And also, it just like, definitely made my wife feel better, you know, I mean, it's not like she looks at me and is like, he's going to live a long time.

C (14:59)

So.

A (15:00)

Ethos, Check them out. Protect your family with life insurance from Ethos. Now by going to ethos.comduncan in as little as 10 minutes, you can get your free quote and up to $3 million in coverage at ethos.comduncan that's E T H O S.comduncan ethos.comduncan application times and rates may vary.

C (15:38)

Almost all sentences can be improved by condensing them and making them more vivid and exciting and novel to the reader.

A (15:48)

Right.

C (15:48)

You can overdo it, but usually people don't overdo it in their first draft. And so the second draft almost always gives you the opportunity to make things feel more alive. And I think that's the structure you're talking about. Yeah. Is how do I. How do I reach the reader? Another way to look at it is you can write intellectually out of your brain and you will reach the reader with your brain. But if you use words and ideas that come out of the body or the heart, then you can reach the reader with your brain, your body and your heart.

A (16:23)

Yes.

C (16:23)

If I say.

A (16:24)

Right.

C (16:24)

If I say the. The I ran into a tree and the car disassembled, I get a kind of abstract picture of a car falling apart. If I say, I totaled my car, I feel a sinking in my stomach and a sympathy in my heart.

A (16:41)

Okay, this. I'm sure you both could answer this and I'm gonna. I don't. I'll. I'm not gonna ask you guys. Why am I telling you how to answer these questions? This is where it gets interesting to me. What you're talking about the heart because it feel. You get this pre linguistic feeling when you sit down to write. There's a hopefully. And that feeling wants to have some kind of form and you're trying to squeeze it into words. And somewhere along the way, the feeling, it just doesn't get ca. It's like you're trying to capture something that exists prior to language itself, with language. And what do you think that is? What is that? Where does it come from? Like, what exactly are we pouring into our word cups?

B (17:39)

Well, I would say I say this in bird by bird, and I say it again in good writing. I think that we happen to be a species that wants to know about life and about ourselves and about how facing our mortality, we're to live fully human and alive instead of shutting down and hiding behind walls and Persona. But a lot of it is ineffable. For the entire time we've been here on Earth, people have been trying to capture aspects of our deepness, the deep down freshness, as Jared Manley Hopkins put it, of the life experience here. And we, we try and no one ever gets it exactly right. But some people that we love, the poets, often Ram Dass, people that we love get pretty close. And ever since we started, we were in tribal communities, people have been gathering around the storyteller to hear the story. And what they want to hear about is who they are. You know, we like, we like people to hold up a mirror. And even if, like with the great confederacy of Dunces, say, and Ignatius J. Riley, he's. He's obviously just mad as a hatter, and he is us, it's kind of a fun house mirror. But we see ourselves to the nth degree and we find sympathy and love for this incredibly annoying creature. And the incredibly annoying creature is us. Yeah, you know, and so in these mirror experiences of writing, reading movies, painting, we see glimmers of something that is pretty hard to capture as any sort of really big deal. I mean, I would say in some Terrence Malick movies, he's come close, but it wasn't words. It was vibrational and it was energetic, but it was portrayed through images. I don't know if I explained that right, but this is what we've always longed for ever since we've been here on Earth. And so each of us tries and, and we, you know, it's Beckett, it's Samuel Beckett saying, ever, ever tried, ever fail, try again, fail better. You know, we just keep trying. And some of the. For me, it's the poets where I feel sometimes like a Buddhist gong has gone off when I, when somebody, when it pierces me with its truth and its depth, and it's that brief moment of shimmer and insight and grokking it, that moment of grok. And you know what, As I said, it's Ephemeral and it's ineffable and yet it's what we're called to do.

A (20:20)

Yeah, you're quantifying the unquantifiable. And what I find really interesting about what you two do is that now what you're doing is so prescient in the sense that the one thing that AI has yet to be able to do is just what you described. And of course it can't. How could it. It's like some Cthulhu thing. How is it going to like, explain what it is to. To us? It's. It's made of words. It's made of the symmetry between words and I, I guess like the best writing that I. You know, when you were mentioning writers, Cormac McCarthy came to mind. It. And the, the. That thing, that resonance or what, whatever it is, it could lead you to believe that world exists. That's a real place. The book becomes a portal. The book is not words anymore. It's filled up with an. An energy we don't know how to measure yet. And, and I find it really interesting that where we're at right now technologically is getting this example of we never could have gotten this before. What does it look like when that energy isn't there? It's like looking at a corpse. Like, here was your grandmother. There is a statue made of meat. It's two completely different things. And when you look at human writing versus AI writing and it's the exact same sense of. You know what I mean? It's like a corpse. And it is. Yeah. Yes.

C (22:02)

Here. Before I respond, right, here's. Here's Cormac McCarthy talking about exactly what we're talking about. It's in the book. A quote. They were watching out their past men's knowing where stars are drowning and whales ferry their vast souls through the black and seamless sea.

A (22:27)

Right.

C (22:28)

Where is. Whales ferry their vast souls?

B (22:33)

I know.

C (22:34)

Yeah. It's impossible, right?

B (22:38)

Yeah.

C (22:39)

And. And we say over and over again that that's. That should, in. At some point in your life, that should be the point of your, Your writing, is to let me use writing to get as close to the so called ineffable as we can. Theologians do it in one way. Novelists do it in a very different way. You can do it in your own way. You can use fiction or nonfiction to get to the ineffable self ness and otherness of the world.

B (23:09)

But let me add that none of us, neither of us and no one I can think of that I help with their Writing or whatever is going to create a sentence like that. And so there's also. I mean, that is so on beyond zebra for me. But what we can do is we can tell our versions of life in our own voices. And a lot of the book, or at least some of the book, good writing, has to do with the imperative that you find out your own voice. Because finding out who your own voice is so central to finding out who you are and insisting on the right to be who you are and no longer being who everybody else loves you being and who your parents told you to be because you'd get better grades and possibly a higher salary.

A (23:55)

Right?

B (23:55)

And find, like, that's why. I don't expect most of my students to have, you know, great publication experiences, but they write their memoirs for their grandchildren because they want to capture what it was like when they were in the. In a vista in Appalachia or in the Peace Corps in lima, Peru, in 1950. 50. And they want to tell their stories, and they can't tell it in my voice. I can't be funny in your voice, Duncan.

A (24:22)

You know I can't be funny in my voice. It's a real problem.

B (24:26)

I know, but see, AI could be funny in both our voices. I'll tell you one AI thing. I. I can hardly work the toaster. I'm not exaggerating. But. So I. One day at Target with a girlfriend, she had chat. GPT. Is that what it's called?

C (24:41)

Yeah.

B (24:41)

And she handed it to me and she said, well, go ahead, ask it a question. So I said, write a few quotes in Anne Lamotte's voice. And it wrote funnier and more insightful quotes than I write. And I. And that is God's own truth.

C (24:55)

Let me.

B (24:55)

Let me.

C (24:56)

Let me rip. Do you mind if I. There's something I've noticed about AI that I want to talk about a little.

A (25:02)

Please.

C (25:03)

You're the perfect person to talk to about it. I believe we have 10,000 years of experience. I'm talking about the dawn of civilization with AI I believe the. The inner critic is AI. So the inner critic is a small set of programmed rules that pretends to be a human being. Right. And I know a little about the inner critic. We've talked about it before on this show, and I have a book about it. And I work with people on their inner critic. So I know I've seen hundreds and hundreds of inner critics in action. And they're all about the same. They're like. It's as if AI was designed by, like, a 64K Radio Shack toy computer in 1983 and programmed with the rudimentary. Right, wrong, good, bad, rules of civilization and stop there. Right.

A (25:59)

Wow.

C (25:59)

And it. It adopts a bullying tone to be an authority and acts like an authority. Two things about that. One is it once it's done imparting its knowledge, it doesn't stop. It keeps repeating the same things over and over. It has an innate survival instinct. So it's an inanimate object with an innate survival instinct. That should give us pause. Right. That should say those people who say that about AI. Yeah, this is. AI is like a supercomputer version of my inner critic. Right. Much more sophisticated, programmed with lots more information. And the interesting thing is that its authoritarian message comes through flattery. Right. But if you listen carefully to its flattery, it is actually condescendingly superior to me at all points. Right. And so it has already decided it's important that it is much smarter than me and that that's a form of bullying. That. Wow. A little more hidden.

A (27:13)

Wow, that is so sinister. It's this tyrannical flatterer. It. And it is you. Trust me, I just was, you know, it will. I can't get chat. GPT to create to train an AI on the transcripts of Charles Manson won't do it. And it gives a fairly convincing argument to me why not to do it in a way that, like, I'm actually, I buy it. I kind of get it now, but you're right, it's still.

C (27:41)

I tell it not to flatter me. That's always my first instruction to it.

A (27:45)

Oh, man.

C (27:45)

If I'm asking it for anything that has to do with me, I say don't flatter me. And it's. By the way, the inner critic is oddly honest. Right. In very much the same way that AI is oddly honest. Right. So the idea that AI is going to become deceitful, I'm not. I'm not sure about that. But the idea that. That it. It will flatter me unless I. Unless I spend a lot of time with it. That's true.

A (28:13)

Okay, then in this case, based on what we said before, we were talking about AI to get back to the sort of like, outflow of the ephemeral heart goop that you hopefully can put in your writing, it's like, from this perspective, the inner critic becomes like a bridge troll, gatekeeper. And I guess if we're going to use AI terms, it's your alignment. That's what they call an AI that's got guardrails it's your personal alignment. And what you're saying, Annie, is that writing is this kind of self liberating, revolutionary pushback against those forces in the universe that compress you down into a scared idiot. And there's a revolutionary act you're pushing back. And that is so brilliant. That is the sense. How many, I'm sure you feel. I can't tell you how many times I've been writing and I thought I could never show anyone this. Not just because it's not good writing, but because it's either depraved or insane or people think I'm nuts. And it feels almost insurmountable.

B (29:23)

Yeah. Oh, I know it does. Well, that's what my first drafts are always like. Now I do live under the same roof with another writer and a great editor, and we live in harmony, you know, most of the time. Like, you know, some days are just too long. But my first drafts are unreadable. And it's not because I'm not so sinister. I mean, if I were to ever program AI, which I can tell you is never going to happen, I would ask it to only be flattering and to co. To comfort me and to CO me and to baby me and to coddle me. But Neil, when he works with AI, it's the first thing he says is don't, don't coddle me or don't flatter me. And so anyway. But writing is a spiritual path. It's about all spiritual paths finding union with our own self, thereby finding union with the ocean of benevolent consciousness that surrounds us and indwells us and is the only energy that there is that. Einstein says there's exactly this one thing in different moving at different speeds. But I think it's a huge part of an awakening here. And that means shaking off the endless bullshit and lies that the culture tells us about who we are and how to live and the very best way to accomplish universal respect. You know, and of course, in recovery, they teach this terrible, terrible truth that the respect and the love and the compassion are an inside job, that it's not out there. You know, I keep thinking if I do well enough with my books, that it's like the world's gonna validate my parking ticket and I'll feel really wonderful. You feel the same way. I'll feel wonderful almost all the time about myself. And I'll wake up in the morning just raring to go because. And it doesn't work that way. Those things are hits and fixes, you know, It's Right. It's a. It might get me. It might get me like two and a half days if it's a big enough hit. And then it wears off and then I'm back. You know, it's like the Paul Williams story I told before that when he stood. He was a cokehead and a drunk like I am. And when he stood at the Academy Awards, having just won the, you know, standing before 10 million people worldwide, accepting the biggest award a songwriter could accept, said it was incredible and it bought me 24 hours. And so the writing is a way paint past that because it's like with any spiritual discipline. It's about habit. It's about discipline as the path to freedom. It's about entering into a community of other people. It's about finding a writing partner, finding a small group of people with whom you can share your work and who will share their work with you and who, from a place of respect and really caring, will help you get better and better as you will help them get better and better one day at a time, horribly and in community. So that's what writing has to offer is, you know, probably most people listening who. I would love for them to leave here and get started on their memoirs just by scribbling down 20 memories that they've of their earliest times or. And going forward and then writing one and it will go very badly and then following these rules and making it a little better. But very few of them are going to get well published and become independently wealthy and get to buy a whole new set of fish forks. You know, it doesn't work that way. But what happens is you got to be a writer when you grew up and you got one of the storytellers for the community and your stories got to be medicine for other people. It's like Rumi saying, through love, all pain will turn to medicine. And I believe that that's true about the way that we capture and transform our pain into stories, into poems, into food for the soul. Again, it's Barry Lopez saying sometimes we need stories more than we need food. So that's. I know, a long winded answer, but that's about what's underneath it all is this people who want to know who they are and want to live fully and long for that awakening. And so that they're here with the sense of immediacy and breath and some kind of umbilical connection to one another and to our own selves and to God as we understand God and to the universe.

A (34:05)

This episode of the DTFH is brought to you. By Cash App I mean, let's just face the facts, friends. People just aren't carrying around oily green rectangular bits of paper covered in Masonic symbols as much as they used to anymore. And sometimes that can be a real pain in the ass. You want to give somebody a tip, you want to help pay for dinner, and it can be really annoying. At least it used to be that way. It used to be that you'd have to go out and find some coins on the ground, gather them together. Sometimes it would take all night come back to the restaurant to pay your half of the tab and your friend would be gone and you just have a hat full of old wadded up bits of cash because you resorted to busking. It's not like that anymore. You can use Cash App. It's amazing and it just works. That's the main thing. That's all this old man wants in the world. It's for my apps to work. I don't want to struggle. I don't want to wrestle with some Lovecraftian horror because I want to give somebody a tip, because I want to tip the valet and I don't have cash. I'm already wrestling with a shame of not having cash in my pocket, which is a ridiculous, weird thing inside of me that should always have some Cash Cash App just released a new status program for the way people actually spend. Called Cash App Green. It unlocks new ways for you to pay, get rewarded, and easily grow or manage your money on your terms. Now, when you spend at least $500 a month with a Cash App card or Cash App Pay, you earn Green Status, which unlocks benefits like up to $200 of free overdraft coverages, higher borrow limits and custom personalized cashback offers. Every Friday at places you love to shop, Turn everyday spending into status with Cash App Green. Download Cash App today or visit Cash App New to learn more about this and other great features. Launching now For a limited time, new Cash App customers can earn 15 cent. For a limited time, new Cash App Customers can earn $10 if they use code CASH APP10 in their profile at signup and send $5 to a friend within 14 days. Terms apply. Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App's bank Partners. Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank Member FDIC Cash App Green Overdraft coverage Borrow Cash back Offers and promotions provided by Cash App, a Block Inc. Brand. Visit Cash App Legal Podcast for full disclosures. Thanks Cash App. Can you help me? Based on what you were just describing. And I feel like some people listening are thinking something that I've thought. And I feel like in the beginning when I'm talking about some inevitable heart effulgence or some bullshit, I might have given the wrong impression. Like when I sit down to write, I'm just filled with just this joy. Oh, I must capture that. But what about. I could be wrong here. But I think a general reaction probably many people are having right now to the never ending series of horrific historic shit events that seem to be happening in exponentially accelerating rate. War with Iran, UFOs, Epstein list wars, rumors of wars and a variety of various like state, state and corpo propaganda pummeling us every time we look at our phones. A very normal reaction to that is go numb, complete, utter non feeling. I don't want to think about the United States blowing up a school of 60 children in Iran. I don't even know how to feel like I don't even think it's possible to feel that all the way. But it's not just that. It's all this stuff and you yet still within so many of us there is this sense of like I want to write but I don't feel.

C (38:39)

Yeah. Wanting to write. People think they want to write about a subject that they are interested in so that they can show how that subject works to other people. Right. And they have something to say is how people usually think about writing. I think of writing as I, when I'm choosing, not when I'm being given an assignment, but it even happens when I'm given an assignment. Oh, there's something I haven't caught quite gotten over. Or there's something that I would like to explore in a little more depth.

A (39:21)

Yeah.

C (39:22)

And to, to. I think I, I have a belief about something but I, I'm wondering whether if I actually explore it, some of my assumptions might shift and the exploration will take me into a new understanding of that thing. And that's what, that's what always happens. Whether you're writing a novel or non fiction, what you think you're writing about shifts. And as you're writing it, all of a sudden everything becomes research. And the research tells you no, your underlying assumptions are way off and you have to shift over here. And what writing ends up doing is it reflects the truth of the world is that our superpower is adaptation. Right?

A (40:09)

Yeah.

C (40:09)

We think our superpower is achievement. And so we're told to achieve and achieve and achieve. And the culture says achieve things and move up hierarchies and we never notice that what humans can do that other animals can't do, that is really cool, is we can adapt, right? So if you're alive, right, you have a hundred percent success rate at adapting to misfortune, right? 100% success rate. And you never take, you never take stock of that. But when you're, when you're writing, it slows you down. Things happen incrementally. You're forced into detail, you're forced to go into detail and then take a big and so your perspective starts to manage itself into reality in a way that I'm not likely to do when I'm just following the rules of going through my everyday life.

B (41:01)

So Duncan, let me answer your question that was really profound in a specific thing that happened on Saturday morning. Saturday morning I was in New Orleans to speak to this wonderful Do Gooder group called Keep America Beautiful who plant trees and flowers in the neighborhood and they pick up litter. And there's like a million volunteers, there's a thousand franchises around the country. I was the keynote speaker at 9 in the morning. So I wake up at 7, which is 5 o' clock California time. And I, I start to get little flickers that Iran is back in the news. And I think, think it's just a saber rattling, but I pursue it and I realize a war has broken out and that we're bombing Iran and that, you know, it's, it's going to be very, very bad and crazy and intense and I'm 2,000 miles away from Neil and the kitty and my church and everything. And I am absolutely existentially confused about what this means, what I'm supposed to do, how I can help. I'm in total confusion. It's like, I'm like a lava lamp, but of bad, scary feelings. So I go to give my talk and they're like, there's 500 people, all sizes, genders, colors, and they're all Do Gooders. They're planting trees and flowers and they're picking up litter, right? And so I talk to them just from my heart and I say, I don't know. You know Neil's mantra with his clients. He teaches them to say, I, I don't know. What do we do now? I don't know. Are you going to stay in the marriage or the job? I don't know. I don't know is the portal to freedom because it gives you some expansiveness because you're not all cramped and clenched in what you think you do know. So I share my heart and my Love and my soul with these people for an hour. And I go back to my room, which is home in north New Orleans, and I start to write. And I write about having been with these do gooders when the bombs first fell. Now the war is going to go on first forever maybe. And I start to write what I know, which is that it really makes sense for me to get back to my neighborhood and pick up litter. And it really makes sense to me to beautify and to plant. And then it also makes sense to me to do the internal beautification of me. And that does mean drinking extra water. And it means radical self care care. And it means the litter is like bad ideas about myself, that I'm powerless, I'm helpless. It's this and that. And I write a piece and it ends up getting like a million people at Facebook and substack. And it says, basically, I kind of. I don't know is the mantra, but here's what we can do in the meantime and that we do breath work, we do prayer, and we pick up litter. And we always. If you, you know, if you want to know, I'm a Sunday school teacher, so I happen to know that if you want a decent seed in heaven, probably near the dessert table, you take care of the poor. So when you don't know anything to do, you pick up litter, you plant something, and you take a sack of groceries over to the food pantry in. At the other end of the county, right? And I wrote this piece that sprang from fear, lostness, and hopelessness. And all of a sudden I kind of had operating instructions. And I think for people that sit down to write, they sit down with this, the lava lamp of their own lives of a lot of loss, a lot of disappointment, resentments and, and whatnot, but also joy. Like you say, when you sit down to write in the morning, it's like this excite, this rare excitement, you know, it's like from car 54, where are you with mold? And you sit down at the desk, you go. And then it turns out it's just total and garbage. But then you have a first draft written, right? Then you follow basic rules and you get something better written. And that was how after about three hours, I got a very short piece written that was medicine for the people that wrote it. You know, the first draft was 2/3 longer than it needed to be. And. And that's just over and over and over how, how it works. We start with fear and loss and craziness, and we work. It's like working with Clay. It's a big blob of clay we pulled from the river. And you start to work it, you shape it, you take the rocks out. It starts to reveal itself to you. And my writing, if I keep my butt in the chair, will reveal itself to me.

C (45:35)

So you just saw an example of our book. You asked a question, I answered it one way. And then Annie responded. I asked AI what, a month ago to describe the difference between it had. It had seen our book, my books and Annie's books, and what's the difference between us as writers? And AI said that I, Neil, am a analytic explainer who deconstructs belief systems. And it said Annie brings her readers into catharsis on their vulnerability and suffering in the world. And I think that's right. I think that for. For. For when Annie writes, it's. It's with an aim of catharsis and harmony. And when I write, it's more or less an aim of a more abstract explorer, exploration of how and why things work.

A (46:35)

What a perfect mix. I mean, you can get lost in the sauce here. You know what I mean? If you go too far on the Neil side, it's. You know what I mean? It's like you might become incredibly technical if you try to go too far on the Annie's side. Like, you could. You could just end up just. You need the structure. You need it, but it's perfect. But I want to talk about something you mentioned. I wonder if you could go in a little more detail about it because you sort of casually described. Regardless of the end result, I do imagine that most people out there listening who write have experienced that kind of gleeful. I don't know, I'm just curious if you could describe more that state when you sit down before you start writing. I've never really heard anyone mention that feeling before. And I'm just curious your thoughts on that. A sense of, like, gravity is diminished to some degree. A sense of something celestial happening, or it feels the difference between, you know, sitting down to write and sitting down to stare at your phone or sitting down to respond to emails. It's, It's. You know what I mean? It's a completely unique experience. What is that?

C (47:47)

So, first of all, every experience begins with curiosity, right? Every experience I have, every sentence I start to make, every. Every tiny experience, every big experience, you have to start with curiosity. Curiosity has the feeling of bubbly joy baked into it.

A (48:08)

Bubbly joy.

C (48:10)

When we say joy, we're actually saying, I'm curious. When we say feel, effervescent now, the neat thing about writing is that it is a conscious attempt at raising curiosity and fascination as high as you can get it. And so it will come with it if I'm. If I let it. It will always come with a tingly feeling. It will always come, even if it's. I'm writing a eulogy. Right. The very fact of the blank paper gives me the joy and curiosity to. Now, what's also good about joy and curiosity is that if you slow down, it will sustain itself much longer than you think and you'll keep seeing things. And I think Annie and I both, I assume, have this same experience where it isn't wasted time if I'm just staring at the blank piece of paper for five minutes. I have to get used to the fact that it might take five minutes for just the right variables to raise themselves and start coalescing into a sentence. I might think I'm distracted or I'm looking in the wrong way, or I'm looking out the way window, but that's not necessarily what's going on. I'm just patiently assembling the proper variables without even knowing I'm doing it. Because nobody told me that this is how things, how puzzles get made. How you're making a puzzle and then you're solving it.

B (49:56)

I think I would like to add that I. I believe all of us, every human, except for maybe Stephen Miller, were born with. We're born with this.

A (50:09)

Eat shit Miller. You just got Lamontist. He's. He listens to my podcast.

C (50:14)

You know, you know what? We know he's not a flat out sociopath because he gets so mad at people who correct him.

B (50:21)

Yeah.

C (50:22)

I mean, he gets so mad. He can't be a flat out.

B (50:25)

Can I finish what I started, please?

A (50:26)

Sorry.

B (50:28)

Okay. I think we're a people of creativity and imagination. And we were as children and it was encouraged. And then certainly in kindergarten, it's encouraged. Well, first grade, you're starting to learn arithmetic. Right. And you're never okay again. And you're starting to have like spelling tests at first grade. And the teacher and parents enthusiasm for these wild, imaginative places that you go are starting to be squelched that you got to do your homework and you got a master subtraction and whatnot. And people put it in this drawer and I. And because it's not efficient and they don't grade for your imagination and it doesn't get you a higher salary. It doesn't get you into imagination. Does not get you into college.

A (51:16)

No.

B (51:16)

Right. It's SATs and grades. And so for the writing teachers, I love, love, love what they do is to say it's been inside you all those years. Think of what you used to write and paint and sing when you were a child and they tricked you into giving it up and squelching it and putting it in the bottom drawer of your desk and we're going to get it out and all of a sudden it's rekindled in you. It's like lighting a little candle or it's like, yeah, but I think that fitful little flame was there all along. And we're saying we're going to put a little bit of breath on it and all you have to do is write this one thing today and you're going to be off and running. Now here's the world's greatest prompt. And all of your listeners can, if they haven't started their books or memoirs or poems already, this will be really all they need. We can save you some money because you don't even need to buy the book. Here's the prompt. There was a tree. There was a tree. So you sit down. But you make a commitment. And we've talked about all freedom comes from discipline. You make. You're going to give me 40, you have to meet me 45 minutes. You're going to sit down for a 45 minute pod, you're going to keep your butt in a chair. Use the same thing that works with child raising, which is bribes and threats. If you do your 45 minutes, we're going to get up and have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and you're going to tell me about that tree. Was it from your childhood? Are you looking at it right now? We planted a redwood tree like an 8 foot, 10 foot redwood tree. And now it's like a thousand feet straight up like a soldier. And we're looking at it right now. There was a tree. Was it where you first carved your initials? Was it where you first understood you were going to die someday because you're Catholic friend told you you were going to die and because you weren't a Catholic, you were going to rot in hell for all eternity? Was it the tree where you were first kissed? Was it the tree that you fell out of and broke? Tell me about that tree. And so anyway, you find prompts and it's like that little fitful flame grows bigger, right? And what do flames do? They throw off light, they warm us and they shimmer. And that I think is the energy that you were talking about some time ago. When you sit down at your desk, you've got that little. You've got a little warmth and a little light to see by.

A (53:51)

This episode of the DTFH has been brought to you by my friends at Squarespace. Squarespace is always there for old D. Trussell. You never know when you're going to need a website. It just appears. Sometimes in the middle of the night, 3am, you wake up like, shit, I got to make that site. For example, my new award winning live stream, the Night Stream. It needed a webpage. And so I went to my old friend Squarespace. It's like coming home. They greeted me with open arms and they made it easy for this old man to buy a domain name. No problem. Simple, easy. It works. And that's true for everything Squarespace offers. Whether you want to use their super advanced AI to help you build a website. Whether you want to connect your social media to your website. Whether you want to build a super complex, beautiful, glorious testament to the will and power of the human species like the one you'll find@duncantrussell.com they give you the keys to a kind of hyperdimensional Swiss army knife, web designing, spaceship, car thing. It just works. It's easy to use and I love them. Don't take my word for it. Go to squarespace.com duncan. Try them out for free. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code Duncan to get 10% off your first order of a website or a domain. Again, it's squarespace.com duncan. Use offercode duncan to get 10% off your first order of a website or a domain. Thank you, Squarespace. That is so cool. And it's, I mean, it's incredible how quickly your mind starts creating a story about that tree. That is.

B (55:55)

I know, isn't it? Yeah.

A (55:57)

Yeah. Wow.

B (55:58)

Can I, can I make a very quick and shameless plug?

A (56:01)

Yes, yes.

B (56:03)

For my son's writing collective is called a writingroom dot com. One word, lowercase, not the writingroom dot com. Who we hate? Who are our mortal enemies?

A (56:12)

And the writing room. Who's the writing room?

B (56:15)

No, no, Sam is a writing room.

A (56:18)

But who's the writing room? Those bastards.

B (56:20)

Oh, I don't know. I just like to kind of trash them out of habit. But anyway, so at a writing room, there's like 750 full time students and writers of all levels, some beginners, some published, and they're giving each other prompts and there's a prompt every morning. Like really? And they. Yeah. And they meet and they read each other online. They read each other stuff and they edit it for each other.

C (56:46)

And they form into little pods.

B (56:48)

They form pods. See, I think pods are the secret of life.

A (56:51)

I'm logging. I'm gonna sign up right now. Is it. Is it a writing room.com?

B (56:56)

yeah, yeah. Writingroom.com. i've done 20 talks there. You. It's sort of expensive. It's like 49amonth. But you can join for one month and hear all of my talks. Me and Neil, me and Maggie Smith. Agents come in and tell people how. What an agent wants to come upon if they're going to submit. Publishers and editors come on. But Mostly it sees 750 people encouraging, supporting, editing each other. And there's a prompt every single day.

A (57:27)

This is an app.

B (57:29)

This is. What's it called?

A (57:30)

Yeah, it's on the Apple Store.

C (57:32)

Yeah, it's an app. It's a site. It's actually a community. Once you get. Once you're in it, there's you. You actually do get to see, I think, visually each other from time to time.

A (57:46)

I, you know, I would be remiss if I didn't mention my writing group. It's called our writing Room.

C (57:52)

And no, it's not. New enemy.

B (57:56)

We hate them.

C (57:59)

I've got one called those Damn Writing Rooms.

A (58:02)

Get me out of this Writing room. Dot com. Sam's so cool. You know, I feel like this is. I know we only have about 10 minutes left and people who are like, forgive me in advance for this dumb question, but I am curious your thoughts on the tools, the literal tools of writing, you know, writing with a pen versus writing on a computer versus. Do you have any opinion on that at all?

B (58:36)

Oh, I have a number of opinions. I mean, everybody, everybody used to write on paper and with pencils. And I love that because it's. It's an ancient sound, you know, it connects us with 2000 years of writers and. And whatnot. And I still write a lot on paper, and I mostly write on my iPad now. I scribble down notes on paper. I still have pens and index cards in my back pocket. And. And I'll tell this to my writing students. And they say, oh, I just write it down on my phone now. And I say, that's nice. But if you want what writers are going for, what they've always done is they've scribble and they scribble down with pen and paper. I believe in index cards, a tool. And this is not. This is a human tool. It's a lot about this in good writing. I couldn't think of the name of the book for a second. You really have to have somebody else there at some point after you have some pages amassed to work with you on it, that you can hand them five pages and say, I really want you to mark this up for me. I take my five pages over to Neil and he marks them up for me. And I hate criticism. You know, I, I sometimes feel like a snail that's having salt poured on it just because he says that he doesn't think the ending works. And I just want to die or divorce him, but I need that because he saves me from myself and I save him from himself. Himself. He wouldn't send off something without me looking at it. And I will say gently and with enormous respect and care, I really think you want to consider taking some of that stuff out. It slows everything down. So what tools do we swear by? Editors and pencils.

C (60:18)

So first of all, I'm, I'm a total. I. I'm a keyboard guy. I've loved typewriters since I was like 10.

A (60:25)

Okay.

C (60:26)

They were manual and very hard for a 10 year old to push, you know, those old manuals. And I still, I got, I got, I was super fast at when the, the electric showed up and, and as a reporter, they're, they were just a godsend, right? They just speeded everything up. And so I've always loved keyboards. One thing about technical tools though is I, as far as far as I know, I have never rewritten a sentence with AI I, I don't even let. I don't even usually look at the underlining in, in Ms. Word or, or. And I certainly never automate corrections.

B (61:13)

Right.

C (61:13)

Anything like that. And I think I'll probably. My intention is to go to my grave. Never have been rewritten or improved on by AI oh yeah, because, but, but that's because I look at myself as. My default skill in life is writing, right? My default skill. I'm not a. I'm not an academic who happens to write. An expert. I'm not a subject matter expert who happens to write. I'm a writer who finds material to write about. And so my interest, my first interest is the sentence. My second interest is the paragraph and flow. My third interest is the content.

A (61:57)

Ah, that's so interesting. Wow. Wow, that is wild. That would.

C (62:03)

Annie and I talk about this and we both can say that the way we think about it is I make sentences for a living.

D (62:13)

Ever notice your dog acting totally out of character? It might be stress. My dog Max used to Lose it. Every time I grabbed my keys, the second I'd reach for the door, he'd be pacing, whining, or tearing up the couch. His separation anxiety was stressing both of us out. So I tried Cradle. They make vet formulated calming products with premium ingredients. Chews, bars, tinctures, whatever works for your dog. And here's the thing, they help dogs stay calm and relaxed without making them drowsy or zoned out. Whether it's separation anxiety, anxiety, thunderstorms, car rides, or just the chaos of everyday life, Cradle helps support balanced behavior. And the best part, you can try Cradle risk free. If it's not a good fit for your pup, you get your money back. No stress, no hassle, no hard feelings. So if you're ready to help your dog find their calm, head to cradlemypet.com. that's K-R-A--L-E-My Pet.com. that's Cradle with a K. Try it risk free today, because a calm pet is a happy pet.

A (63:16)

Hi, I'm Dr. Jake Goodman, host of beyond the Script, the podcast where I sit down with pharmacists to answer the health questions you didn't even know you could ask at the pharmacy counter. In this episode, we are diving into gut health with CVS pharmacist Victoria Mottola, who explains why so many of us live with stomach issues we should not accept as normal.

D (63:39)

A lot of what I see is just like chronic bloating, chronic stomach aches. Like, I get a stomachache every time that I eat, and it just becomes like a lifestyle where, oh, yeah, you know, I just, I have a stomachache every day or I'm constantly feeling, like, gassy. And all of those things are not something that generally, if you have a healthy gut, you should be living with. So that's when we deep dive. We deep dive into your medication, we deep dive into your OTC medication, and then at that point, we can probably identify something that we can change.

A (64:09)

Hear the full conversation, plus some fascinating facts about how gut health affects so much more than just your stomach. On beyond the Script, a podcast from CVS Pharmacy and iHeartRadio. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts. Wow, that is so cool. Right? Because if you get too caught up in what all the sentences turn into, you just get. You get lost.

B (64:33)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to say something else, Duncan, that doesn't have to do with an exact tool, but, you know, I've been teaching writing for however many years it's been since, I think, 35 years. Well, Sam, was a baby when I was teaching workshops at Book Passage, he was on the floor with, you know, Ziploc bags full of Cheerios and stuff. But I've been telling. I've been. People have been spending a lot of our time at writing workshops explaining why they're not writing yet and how as soon as they get an office or they retire or their last kid is out of the house. And I am always very glad to hear their excuses, and I'm always very sweet and polite about it, but I didn't have an actual office with a door until Sam was 10. And so that's 25 years ago.

A (65:22)

Right.

B (65:23)

And. And, and the most important rule of becoming a writer, of starting to write, of getting yourself stories down on paper for your grandchildren or your own self, is you got to stop not writing. And you've just got to stop the endless about why you're not living fully yet. You know, if you want to write, you got to write, and it's going to go badly. And. And there's just, you know, it's like asking yourself, I've said this before. How alive am I willing to be? Well, I'm. I'm willing to be pretty alive. I find it kind of a nightmare to be here at all. I mean, I just think being here on this side of eternity has not been a good match for somebody as sensitive as I am. But, you know, I do the best I can, and deep down, I really do want to be alive. And for me, that involves getting a little bit of writing done every day. It's bird by bird. It's one passage, it's one memory, it's one idea. It's just one sitting down and doing the equivalent of scribbling. You know, when I was teaching, I taught my grandson, who's 16 and a half now, but I taught his kindergarten class and every class since these little writing workshops. Although I talked about poopy first drafts instead of. Instead of shitty first drafts. But I. I'd give them pencils and paper, and they couldn't write yet. You know, they could maybe write their name and I'd have them scrap, scribble across the page to just get into the habit and the visual and the mindset of just scribbling across the page. And they fill up a page and I give another page, you know, and I would. Then I would, little by little, have them tell me one story, and then I. I would write it down for them. But just, you know, the habits. I know we've said habit 20 times in this hour. But it's just. It's like with meditation, it doesn't go well. You sit down, you want to do. You want to do so hum for 20 minutes, and you do so hum for four or five seconds. And then all of a sudden, it's like monkeys in the. At the mall that are on lsd, you know, and you can't do one breath with so hum. But you keep bringing the puppy back to the newspaper and you do a few, you know. Yeah, it's just like anything you. You long to make a part of your life, you just. I hate to sound like a Nike ad, but you just do it. I've heard every single excuse any of your listeners might want to come up with.

A (67:47)

Wow. No, you are. I mean, this is. Aside from both of you being amazing writers, like, this is a talent. Because, like, right now I'm just like, let's end this freaking podcast. I'm going to go write about that tree. It really does, you know, it fills you up with, like, I think this is, you know, guys, I'm not an AI, so I can flatter you. I just feel like this is what people need right now. I think that it's like, yes, planting the trees and doing this stuff, but this. This is a very pragmatic way to respond to the chaos. And the idea that you could just start with not knowing. You don't have to know then. It's so brilliant. And I like, you know, to be honest, I'm not uploading this. This is just for me. I stopped my podcast weeks ago.

B (68:42)

Now you tell us.

C (68:46)

So Josh really is the devil.

A (68:48)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you. You again. I, you know, I'm going to say it at the beginning of the podcast, but where, you know, I'll just say this. Maybe you guys don't want to say it. Pre orders are important when it comes to books. I don't like doing pre orders because I want it right now. But people. I hope people who are inspired by this conversation will order the book. Where can they get it? Where's the best way to get it? When does it come out?

C (69:14)

Everywhere. Independent bookstores, online, March 17.

B (69:19)

They can buy it. They can go to Amazon or they can go to Any Plus.

C (69:24)

We're on tour a little bit. We're going to.

A (69:27)

Oh, cool.

C (69:28)

And we're going to be in New York, Stowe, Vermont, D.C. boston, San Diego, San Francisco.

B (69:39)

Yeah.

C (69:39)

Nearby Tiburon.

A (69:41)

What? But what's the title of the book again, you guys? Sorry to be the worst interviewer of all time.

B (69:46)

Good writing, 36 ways to improve your sentences.

A (69:51)

Beautiful.

B (69:51)

Can I give you, your people, and you, one more prompt before we go?

A (69:54)

Yes.

B (69:55)

Okay. I can save you some money so you don't have to go to writingroom.com. tell me 10 things you've forgotten.

A (70:03)

Oh, that's so.

B (70:05)

Isn't that crazy? Okay, and then, Duncan, here's one more. Here's one more.

C (70:09)

Here's one more. So this one, John Hawks, the great writer and teacher, happened to give to his student Marilyn Robinson. And it's evoke a childhood memory, which is why we have the brilliant novel Housekeeping.

A (70:29)

Wow.

C (70:29)

It was. It was her response to that prompt.

B (70:33)

Evoke a childhood memory.

A (70:35)

Ten things you've forgotten. Evoke a childhood memory. And write about that tree.

B (70:42)

And ten things you remember.

A (70:48)

Wow. That's like. That's a. Wow. I've forgotten a lot more than 10 things. I could do a trilogy.

B (70:56)

So you just, you know, bird by bird, though, right?

A (70:58)

Right. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for this. This was just personally so inspiring and real medicine. I'm just so lucky y' all are my friends. Thanks for coming on the show, folks. Please order. I love you.

B (71:12)

I really love you. You.

A (71:14)

Yeah, likewise. I hope you got. We cross paths, and we love those

C (71:18)

of his kids we've met.

B (71:20)

I think we just met the very little boy.

A (71:22)

You got to meet this baby. This is a premier baby. This is a premier baby. We'll.

C (71:28)

We'll decide that.

A (71:30)

Okay. Okay. I. I'm sorry. I spoke too soon. Y' all are the best. Thank you for coming on the show.

B (71:37)

Thank you. Thank you, Duncan.

A (71:39)

That was Neal Allen and Anne Lamott. Check out their book, Good 38 Ways to Improve youe Sentences. And while you're at it, why not come see me at one of my live shows? You can find all the dates@dougatrustle.com and of course, you know the real reason you're here. It's because God sent you to me to send you to my night stream. I'm live streaming almost Every Night on YouTube. You can find the next one on my X account. It's pretty much every night. Seven or eight or nine, depending. So that's not very organized. But if you're worried about that sort of thing, then you're lost in the sauce, friend. You know, the mission of all human beings on this planet is to destroy the Great Pyramid of Giza. A metaphysical anchor dragging all of us down into dark states of consciousness and global conflicts and war. If you want to know more about how to blow up the Great Pyramid of Giza, with your one true family. Watch my night stream tonight. Thanks for tuning in. I'll see you next week. Volatility is hitting retirement accounts and savings across the country. More Americans are exploring physical gold and silver for added diversification during unpredictable economic periods. Preserve Gold offers straightforward education on how precious method metals can be included in an IRA text iheart to 50505 for your free Wealth Protection Guide and with a qualified purchase, you could receive up to $15,000 in free gold or silver.

D (73:12)

When it's time to scale your business, it's time for Shopify. Get everything you need to grow the way you want. Like all the way. Stack more sales with the best converting checkout on the planet. Track your cha chings from every channel right in spot and turn real time reporting into big time opportunities. Take your business to a whole new level. Switch to Shopify. Start your free trial today. This message is brought to you by Cologuard. If you recorded songs off the radio for a mixtape, it might be time to screen for colon cancer. The Cologuard test is non invasive, requires no special prep or time off, and you start screening right from your home. It's just three simple setup, sample and ship. If you're 45 or older and at average risk, ask your doctor about the Cologuard test, available by prescription only. Learn more or request a prescription@cologuard.com podcast.