Give the People What They Want | 1

Summary

Easy Money: The Charles Ponzi Story - Episode 1 Summary: "Give the People What They Want"

Hosted by Maya Lau and featuring Sebastian Maniscalco as Charles Ponzi, "Easy Money: The Charles Ponzi Story" is a gripping docudrama that delves into the meteoric rise and catastrophic fall of one of history's most infamous con artists. In the first episode, titled "Give the People What They Want," the narrative intricately weaves together dramatized reenactments, personal letters, and expert insights to paint a comprehensive portrait of Charles Ponzi's life, motivations, and the creation of the notorious Ponzi scheme.

---

1. Introducing Charles Ponzi: The Art of the Con

The episode opens with a captivating monologue from Charles Ponzi himself, setting the stage for his persuasive charisma and his understanding of human nature's craving for easy money.

Charles Ponzi [00:03]: “There's nothing people crave more than easy money. You dangle that chance in front of them and they won't just open their purses and wallets, they'll throw them at you.”

This introduction underscores Ponzi's manipulative tactics—presenting just enough to entice investors while withholding details to avoid suspicion, likening the growing scheme to a snowball gaining momentum.

---

2. The Personal Toll: Insights from Rose and Scott Janeco

Maya Lau transitions to the personal side of Ponzi's life by interviewing Rose Ponzi and Scott Janeco, providing a humanizing glimpse into the man behind the scam. Rose, Charles's wife, shares tender moments that contrast sharply with his fraudulent activities.

Rose Ponzi [04:17]: “Isn't there someone like a goddamned pretty girl? She's the only one pale and lonely and you're driving her ever so slowly back home.”

These interactions reveal the strain Ponzi's ambitions placed on his family, highlighting the complex interplay between his public deceptions and private relationships.

---

3. From Fruit Stand to Fraud: The Failed Ventures

The narrative delves into Ponzi's initial foray into business with the Janeco Brothers fruit stand. Despite his salesmanship, the venture fails, plunging Ponzi and his family into debt.

Charles Ponzi [13:43]: “What's your big idea, then?”

Scott Janeco [15:15]: “I'm being serious. And if we have a family.”

This pivotal moment marks a crossroads for Ponzi, where desperation and ambition collide, setting him on the path to financial deceit.

---

4. The Spark of Genius: Discovering the International Reply Coupon

Faced with mounting debts and dwindling options, Ponzi experiences a moment of inspiration upon finding an International Reply Coupon—an epiphany that would lay the foundation for his infamous scheme.

Charles Ponzi [32:13]: “This coupon was going to change everything. This coupon. Heck, all of these coupons were basically free money.”

His realization that exploiting international postal rates could generate extraordinary profits ignites the scheme that promises investors high returns, exploiting the very human desire for quick wealth.

---

5. Expert Insights: Understanding Ponzi Schemes

Interspersed with the dramatized narrative, experts like attorney Jordan Maglich and Harvard Business School professor Eugene Soltis provide depth to the discussion on how Ponzi schemes operate and persist.

Jordan Maglich [07:37]: “It's almost a game of whack a mole. When one of these things gets discovered or uncovered, then another one quickly takes its place.”

Eugene Soltis [25:33]: “The best fraudsters are people that truly believe the story themselves... Maybe he believes every line. That's actually how he sees himself.”

These insights highlight the intrinsic nature of Ponzi schemes as relentless cycles of deception, fueled by both the con artist's belief in their narrative and the victims' susceptibility to desire.

---

6. Financial Pressures and Escalation

As Ponzi's financial situation deteriorates, confrontations with creditors become inevitable. His interactions with pawnbrokers exemplify the pressing economic pressures that compel him deeper into fraudulent activities.

Charles Ponzi [34:00]: “I would, but I'm afraid your search there will be equally fruitless.”

Pawnbroker [34:35]: “I have been patient, Ponzi. Believe me, I'd much rather you have handed me over the money, but I've got a business to.”

These tense exchanges illustrate the immediacy of Ponzi's financial crisis, pushing him closer to establishing his deceptive investment scheme as a last resort.

---

7. Reflecting on Ponzi's Legacy: A Complex Character

The episode concludes with Maya Lau reflecting on the duality of Ponzi's legacy. While acknowledging his capacity for manipulation and the extensive damage caused, Lau also contemplates his personal struggles and the societal factors that facilitated his rise.

Maya Lau [12:56]: “Because although Charles Ponzi was a real person with hopes and dreams who faced hardship and unfairness in his life, he's also someone who did real damage to other people.”

This nuanced perspective invites listeners to consider the broader implications of Ponzi's actions, emphasizing that susceptibility to fraud is not merely a matter of intelligence but deeply rooted in human desires and societal structures.

---

8. Conclusion: The Birth of a Name in Finance

"Give the People What They Want" effectively sets the stage for understanding the intricate factors that led Charles Ponzi to create a scheme that would not only make him infamous but also leave a lasting imprint on the financial world. Through a blend of personal anecdotes, expert analysis, and dramatic reenactments, the episode offers a comprehensive exploration of how ambition, desperation, and charisma can converge to forge one of the most notorious frauds in history.

---

For those intrigued by the origins of the Ponzi scheme and the man who inspired it, "Easy Money: The Charles Ponzi Story" promises an engaging and insightful journey into the heart of financial deception.

Transcript

[Charles Ponzi]

You want to know the easiest way to make a million dollars? I'll give you a hint. It isn't ransom or armed robbery. I'm talking a simpler way, a cleaner way. No guns, no brute force, and not even that much hard work. At least not for folks like me. All it takes is a trustworthy smile and an understanding of one simple truth. There's nothing people crave more than easy money. You dangle that chance in front of them and they won't just open their purses and wallets, they'll throw them at you. Now that you got your hook in, the trick is not to oversell. Effort arouses suspicion. And suspicion loves details. You want to give them just enough to get excited. Then once their imagination takes over, it only picks up speed, draws in others, builds momentum. It's like a snowball. You give it a little nudge downhill and it will turn into an avalanche on its own. Because human nature is as predictable as it is powerful. Which is why it works every single time.

[Maya Lau]

More than 100 victims are tied up in this 39 million dollar Ponzi scheme. Two top officials now facing charges in a Ponzi scheme.

[Charles Ponzi]

The judge called it one of the.

[Maya Lau]

Largest Ponzi schemes in Utah history. 7 billion dollar Ponzi scheme run by Texas billionaires.

[Scott Janeco]

He told senior employees yesterday that his business was a giant Ponzi scheme.

[Charles Ponzi]

See, anybody could steal a wallet in the dark. But getting people to hand over their money willingly, again and again to believe it was their own idea and then to bring their friends along, that's how you get the big scores. And at a certain point, we're not even talking about business anymore or crime. We're talking about making history.

[Maya Lau]

This is easy money. The Charles Ponzi Story. An Apple original podcast produced by AT Will Media, this show incorporates real interviews and historical research alongside dramatic reenactments and actors voices. Hi, Scott.

[Rose Ponzi]

Come on in.

[Maya Lau]

How are you?

[Rose Ponzi]

I'm Maya. Good, Maya. Nice to meet you.

[Maya Lau]

Nice to meet you.

[Rose Ponzi]

Come on in, guys.

[Maya Lau]

Thank you. When you're covering a story that's 100 years old like the one I'm about to tell you, one of the biggest problems is being able to feel close to it. Even when there's lots of pictures and reporting from the time to fill out all the little details, it can still be hard to feel a real human connection to it. Which is why I flew to Massachusetts to speak with Scott Janeco about his great aunt Rose.

[Rose Ponzi]

She.

[Maya Lau]

She was born in 1895 and lived to be 98 years old.

[Rose Ponzi]

I knew Rose for quite a long time as a young man. She was very, very soft spoken.

[Maya Lau]

Yes.

[Rose Ponzi]

And I don't know if that is true, going back further.

[Scott Janeco]

Yes, it is. I was pretty close to her, actually, for a while.

[Maya Lau]

Scott's mother, Betty, is there too, reminiscing about Rose.

[Scott Janeco]

She was pretty shot.

[Maya Lau]

How was she shorter than.

[Rose Ponzi]

Couldn't have been five feet tall?

[Scott Janeco]

I doubt if she was even five feet. Yeah, probably 4, 10, 4 9. I don't know.

[Rose Ponzi]

Would you agree that she was pretty snappy dresser? She had some nice jewelry.

[Scott Janeco]

Sure. Yeah.

[Rose Ponzi]

She wasn't flamboyant, though, with it.

[Maya Lau]

And while I did certainly want to know about Rose, since she will be a key player in this story I'm telling, the thing that really helped bring these people from the past to life for me was the pile of letters sent to Rose, which Scott dug up ahead of my visit. Can we look at some of these letters together?

[Rose Ponzi]

Yes, sure. This, I believe, from April 1935, is the oldest one. There's a lot there here. My dear Rhodes, don't forget that the days I shall be waiting for your reply seem like centuries to me.

[Maya Lau]

So this is a typed letter addressed to my dear little girl.

[Rose Ponzi]

There's always dear little girl, dear sweetheart. You know, they're all.

[Maya Lau]

With a love which neither distance, time, nor grievance can suppress. Charlie. Charlie, aka Charles Ponzi, the man who, in just nine short months in 1920, stole the equivalent of a quarter billion dollars from tens of thousands of people, etching his name into history and our language in the process. Yet for all his infamy, for all the thousands of people who shook his hand back in 1920, it's extremely difficult to find anyone alive with any insight into Ponzi's personal life, let alone people like Scott and Betty who have an actual connection to him.

[Rose Ponzi]

Ponzi or one of his clerks, where we put money in a box or a bag, and my grandfather, when the bag was full, was taking itself. Does that sound about right?

[Scott Janeco]

Putting it somewhere for Ponzi? Yeah.

[Rose Ponzi]

So he might. My God. So my grandfather was. He might have been 15 years old around that time.

[Maya Lau]

Oh, wow.

[Rose Ponzi]

So he was helping him out.

[Maya Lau]

Teenagers running bags of money to the bank, secret love letters, and especially that sign off Charlie. Such an unassuming name. All such humanizing details for a man whose name would come to define one of the simplest, most destructive frauds in history, whose legacy is a cautionary tale we still haven't fully learned today. I'm Maya Lau, a journalist and financial investigator I've long been obsessed with how people think about money, how we can be anxious about it, attracted to it, suspicious of it, and sometimes addicted to it. Even if we know better, money just has a pull on us. Which is why this story, the story about the birth of the Ponzi scheme as we know it, is of particular interest to me. Because being conned isn't a matter of intelligence. It's a matter of desire. It's about being given what we already want. Which is why Ponzi schemes remain so prevalent, because we're all potential victims.

[Jordan Maglich]

The metro Atlanta man is accused of running a $300 million Ponzi scheme to fund his lavish lifestyle.

[Charles Ponzi]

The Sarasota man who financed me mansions.

[Jordan Maglich]

Private jets, and luxury cars by luring.

[Charles Ponzi]

700 victims into a complex multimillion dollar Ponzi scheme.

[Maya Lau]

The Firm ran a $300 million real estate Ponzi scheme. 2000 investors across the country were impacted. Ponzi schemes have swallowed up tens of billions of dollars in the US over the past decade alone. You've probably heard of Bernie Madoff, easily the most famous Ponzi schemer whose investors lost $65 billion. Yes, that's billion with a B. His idea involved investing in financial markets. But pretty much anything can be turned into a Ponzi scheme. Commercial real estate, liquor licenses, even emu farms and Hollywood blockbusters. That's because all it really boils down to is a simple, straightforward lie told over and over and over. Stealing from one investor to keep another one happy, and then stealing from another investor to make that last one you stole from happy over and over until eventually it collapses.

[Eugene Soltis]

I mean, it's a pretty simple concept. I think as long as people have had the gift of gab and have been inclined to commit crimes, that kind of fraud has been ongoing, and it will continue to be ongoing.

[Maya Lau]

That's Jordan Maglich, an attorney specializing in recovering money stolen in Ponzi schemes. He also runs the website ponzitracker.com, which calls itself the Ponzi Scheme Authority. And there are a lot of schemes to track.

[Eugene Soltis]

It's almost a game of whack a mole. When one of these things gets discovered or uncovered, then another one quickly takes its place.

[Maya Lau]

And so do you think that your site captures the magnitude of the Ponzi schemes that are out there?

[Eugene Soltis]

These are schemes that have come to regulators attention for several reasons. But I have no doubt that there are plenty of new schemes out there that are currently ongoing that just haven't imploded yet.

[Maya Lau]

If you still don't understand exactly what a Ponzi scheme is. Don't worry, it's going to be a big part of this story. For now, the big question is, who was Charles Ponzi? It's not just some fluke of history that his name is etched into our language a century later. In the early 1920s, Charles Ponzi was a really big deal. For someone who was only 5 foot 2, he was larger than life. A poor immigrant who became one of the richest and most famous people in the country, who at one point was making more than a million dollars a day in cash. That's about 15 million today. He was called the wizard of finance. The headlines of the nation's biggest newspapers charted his swift rise and even swifter fall, which resulted in what was then the biggest theft in American history.

[Charles Ponzi]

Oh, there's a perfectly good explanation for all that. It just takes some time to get through is all. So you'll have to bear with me.

[Maya Lau]

And we will. But before we get into that, this is a good time to note that obviously all of the original characters in this 1920s story are sadly dead. So, R. Ponzi, who you just heard and who you'll hear throughout this series, is in fact the voice of the award winning comedian and actor, Sebastian Maniscalco, who also happens to be the spitting image of Charles Ponzi. Go on, Google it for yourself. Anyway, throughout this show, we'll be dramatizing key moments with Ponzi and other characters to help bring this wild story to life. Everything in our show, from the factual narration to our expert interviews to these dramatic scenes, are all based on our deep research into this story. I'm talking hundreds and hundreds of newspaper articles, memoirs, court records, biographies and histories. And of course, love letters like the ones I was looking at with Rose's family.

[Rose Ponzi]

There's no telling how many letters this guy wrote. Actually.

[Scott Janeco]

I can't believe he got all them letters.

[Rose Ponzi]

Perhaps I made a mess of your life, but it was not for lack of the necessary sentiment. It is more probable that loving you to excess was what made me. I can't really read that something. Everything else here I am past 60.

[Maya Lau]

There's a couple things to note about these letters. The first is we only have Ponzi's side of the correspondence since he discarded all of his personal papers near the end of his life, including anything Rose had sent him in response. But we can tell from his letters that Rose was writing back to him. And it's very clear the affections weren't just one sided the second thing to note is almost no one has read these letters. Both Scott and Betty seemed like they were looking at them properly for the first time. And I'm one of the only people outside the geneco family to ever lay eyes on them. There's a reason for that. You said that your family's understanding was that even though she kept these, that once she died, her wish was that they be destroyed.

[Rose Ponzi]

That's how I know. That's how I know she never wanted.

[Scott Janeco]

Them, anybody to read these.

[Rose Ponzi]

I think, me personally, I mean, there's nothing here that puts her in a bad light by any means. And it's part of history.

[Scott Janeco]

Yeah.

[Maya Lau]

So what do you think it says that she kept all these letters.

[Rose Ponzi]

She must have loved them still. Right. They keep them in the periodic correspondence. You know, I think she was kind of probably conflicted and I think that happens. Right. Regardless of the things he had done, they really, really, truly loved each other. Hence his writing to her until basically till the day he died. I think if he didn't let his ego get in the way and he, he just, you know, did things the right way, my guess is they would have been happily married. It's hard to feel bad for a guy like this, but in a way I do.

[Maya Lau]

I guess I do too, up to a point. Because although Charles Ponzi was a real person with hopes and dreams who faced hardship and unfairness in his life, he's also someone who did real damage to other people. And while I don't think he necessarily did so intentionally, not at first anyway, we can't look past that. In fact, we need to stare straight at it because it helps us understand how a regular person from such a humble beginning could start a scam that got so out of control.

[Rose Ponzi]

Before this all happened, he also ran. There was Janeco Brothers fruit stand, Janeko Brothers, yeah, produce. He was probably able to take it over again because of his salesmanship and thinking he could make something of it. I'm. I'd be curious of what happened there.

[Maya Lau]

And that's actually where we're going to start things off at a key moment for Charles Ponzi and Rose, a proverbial fork in the road. It was January 1919. Ponzi and Rose had been married for about a year, and Ponzi soon quit his job to take over his father in law's struggling produce stand. Despite Ponzi's natural ability as a salesman, the Janeko family fruit stand soon went bankrupt, leaving him at a low point.

[Charles Ponzi]

Rose, your boy wonder has returned.

[Scott Janeco]

How did it go well?

[Charles Ponzi]

Your father's officially bankrupt and your husband is officially unemployed.

[Scott Janeco]

But luckily, just as handsome as ever. At least you tried. You know, my uncle said he'd give us a loan just to help us get through.

[Charles Ponzi]

You asked your uncle for money?

[Scott Janeco]

He offered.

[Charles Ponzi]

I don't need his money.

[Scott Janeco]

Then we'll figure something else out. I'm sure you can always get your old job back.

[Charles Ponzi]

I can't go back to clerking, Rose. I can't do that.

[Scott Janeco]

What's all this about?

[Charles Ponzi]

I'm 37.

[Scott Janeco]

Yes, that's not new information.

[Charles Ponzi]

Soon I'll be 40.

[Scott Janeco]

Impressive math. See, you could still be a clerk.

[Charles Ponzi]

I'm being serious. And if we have a family.

[Scott Janeco]

If?

[Charles Ponzi]

When? I meant when. What I'm saying is, there's no more rolls of the dice after that. I'm done filling everyone else's pockets while mine stay empty.

[Scott Janeco]

Look where that's gotten my father.

[Charles Ponzi]

Bankrupt because fruit isn't a big idea.

[Scott Janeco]

So what's your big idea, then?

[Charles Ponzi]

I don't have one yet. I mean, I've had plenty of ideas before, but none right now, because I just haven't had the time. And now I do. That's my point. This is the moment. And if I just run back to some clerking job, I'll be trapped there forever.

[Scott Janeco]

Charlie, we have everything we need.

[Charles Ponzi]

We don't. Not a place big enough for my mother to come visit.

[Scott Janeco]

What do you mean? She can stay here.

[Charles Ponzi]

No. Trust me, she can't. Not here. Not my mother. You know what she's like.

[Scott Janeco]

Is that what this is about? Charlie, it's touching how much you care about her, how much you want to impress her. I know she's sophisticated and exacting and has some romantic ideas about your life, but she's on the other side of the world, and it is your life. What do you want? Because I also know this is something you do. You get excited about big ideas and let your imagination run wild. And I love that about you. I do.

[Charles Ponzi]

Go with me on this, Rose. Just imagine. In fact. Come here.

[Scott Janeco]

The fire escape. It's snowing out.

[Charles Ponzi]

Oh, just a moment. Come on, take my hand. Look out there. What if we saw something else? Something beyond this? The factories, the unpaved roads. What if we weren't living downstairs from our landlord?

[Scott Janeco]

I like Mrs. Lombardi. And paved roads. That's what's on your mind? Of course the water heater is loud and the floorboards creak. Of course, things could be better. But aren't you happy? I thought we were happy.

[Charles Ponzi]

It's okay to want more, Rose. You deserve more. Besides, if I was my own boss, I could set my own hours. I don't know, maybe take an extra day around the holidays soon. I might not even have to work at all.

[Scott Janeco]

Oh, really? What will you do instead?

[Charles Ponzi]

I don't know. Maybe travel around the world with my beautiful wife. Take her to Italy. See the motherland. Maybe even Paris. Everybody wants to see Paris.

[Scott Janeco]

And our children.

[Charles Ponzi]

They'll come with us. And there'll be so many little Ponzis with look more like a navy fleet than a family. Look out Boston. I've got you in my sights. Keep it down. Not anymore, Sir Charles Ponzi won't be kept down anymore.

[Scott Janeco]

You always do this, get me dreaming. When I'm perfectly fine with what we.

[Charles Ponzi]

Have, you always pretend not to like it.

[Scott Janeco]

Can we go inside now?

[Charles Ponzi]

Freezing. I'm sorry. Will we?

[Maya Lau]

It's worth noting that about this decision to chase after dreams instead of finding a steady job, even Ponzi himself later said that, quote, sound judgment did not prevail. By which I imagine he's acknowledging that this was a crossroads, a time he should have taken a different path, should have listened to Rose and gone back to clerking. He seems to know that choosing to strike out on his own is what so sparked this story and all the subsequent drama. But could this man, who is clearly desperate to provide riches for his family and who is smart and charming and ambitious and full of self confidence, could he really have made any other decision? At this point, I'm not so sure. And I suspect Ponzi isn't either, which is probably why he doesn't have a lot else to say on the matter. Sound judgment did not prevail. I mean, that's quite an understatement given where everything landed in just over a year's time.

[Charles Ponzi]

Who would ever imagine you could wind up in so much trouble just for giving people what they want?

[Maya Lau]

The phrase white collar crime wasn't coined until the 1930s, a decade after Ponzi's story took place. The same is true of the phrase American dream. But that doesn't make either of those things any less central to what went on in Boston in 1920. In fact, the promise of the American dream, though it lacked a name, was perhaps never stronger than it was in the early 1900s. Waves of immigrants, booming economic growth, the rise of self made industrial tycoons, and a stark contrast with rigid old world class systems. The United States felt like a land of limitless opportunity where anyone could achieve success through hard Work and ambition. And this idea that America was a haven for dreamers and strivers also created unrealistic expectations. For some, it was a rude awakening. As an immigrant, Ponzi faced pressures and hurdles that others didn't, and he'd concluded that the system was rigged against him. In fact, we picked things up at the moment when this belief hardened into a dangerous resolve.

[Henry Schmielinski]

What's your name again?

[Charles Ponzi]

Ponzi, sir.

[Henry Schmielinski]

Right. And you've been a depositor here for. Let's see.

[Charles Ponzi]

No. Long time.

[Henry Schmielinski]

18 months. According to your application.

[Charles Ponzi]

It's as long as I've been in Boston, so in that sense, you know, it's a long time. No, the more I think about it, it's actually closer to 20 months, which is almost two years, which is almost as long as the great siege of Malta. My.

[Henry Schmielinski]

An entrepreneur and a historian. May I take a closer look?

[Charles Ponzi]

Oh, no. Yeah, of course. Don't let me hoard the joy of my sublime penmanship. I was saying, on the left is the projected revenue. You could see that the net profits are $15,000, and that's just for the first six months.

[Maya Lau]

Hmm. It was the summer of 1919, and Ponzi had been trying for six months to strike it rich on his own. He'd rented a nice office, decked it out with furniture, all bought on credit from a shady character you'll meet soon, and had tried his hand at importing and exporting various items from Europe. None of it stuck. He was forced to move on time, and more importantly, money was running out. Just as he finally came up with a winning idea.

[Henry Schmielinski]

An advertising journal. That's your idea?

[Charles Ponzi]

The world's leading advertising journal.

[Maya Lau]

All Ponzi needed was a couple thousand dollars to help print the first edition. To make his idea a reality, he tried to raise funds elsewhere, to no avail, which is how he found himself seated across from Henry Chmielinski, president of a local bank, the Hanover Trust.

[Charles Ponzi]

It will be more effective than any other because this one will have different editions tailored for different markets.

[Henry Schmielinski]

How innovative. So it will be printed in different languages.

[Charles Ponzi]

Exactly, and with different products in each. For example, an Eskimo, after all, has about as much interest in refrigerators or electric fans as a Congolese has in fur coats and heating appliances.

[Henry Schmielinski]

Well, you have certainly thought of everything.

[Charles Ponzi]

And here is correspondence from prospective advertisers, all excited to be in business with me. Clearly, the idea is a winner. Not to suggest that you can't see that for yourself.

[Henry Schmielinski]

Well, I have to say, this is. This is all very impressive. Have you Gone to anyone else with this proposal of yours?

[Charles Ponzi]

No. No. You. You. You're the first. You're the first.

[Henry Schmielinski]

Good. Good. Then may I suggest that we keep it that way?

[Charles Ponzi]

You mean keep it exclusive to you to do a deal?

[Henry Schmielinski]

No, I meant more like to save you any further embarrassment.

[Charles Ponzi]

I'm sorry.

[Henry Schmielinski]

Your idea is dull. Your business plan is wildly optimistic, and to top it off, your account balance is almost zero. Now, you've put effectively no money into this institution, and now you expect us to hand out thousands of dollars. It's a loan until the business fails and you don't repay it, and then it becomes a handout.

[Charles Ponzi]

It's just 1,000.

[Henry Schmielinski]

No, I can't give you a thousand. I can't approve any loss.

[Maya Lau]

You can.

[Charles Ponzi]

You're the bank president.

[Henry Schmielinski]

I won't approve it then. Is that clearer? Your account is, to be frank, more of a bother than a benefit to us. Now, I have to attend to other matters.

[Charles Ponzi]

Just wait. Hold on. Just let me run through the proposal again. Maybe take it from the top.

[Henry Schmielinski]

A little wisdom. A man's true worth is. Is in how he handles the door being slammed in his face.

[Charles Ponzi]

But, Mr. Schmiel.

[Maya Lau]

Innisk.

[Henry Schmielinski]

Good day, mister.

[Charles Ponzi]

Whatever it was, it's Ponzi. Charles Ponzi.

[Maya Lau]

And Mr. Charles Ponzi would never forget this moment. He was determined more than ever to make his mark on the world, to show everyone who'd underestimated him, which is to say, almost everyone. Just what he was capable of. And also now, to exact revenge.

[Henry Schmielinski]

Oh.

[Charles Ponzi]

A man's true worth is how he handles himself when the door is slammed in his face. Pompous bastard. I made a promise to myself Someday I'll make a meat out of my hand someday soon. And boy did I.

[Maya Lau]

When they next met, Chmielinsky would have no idea that the millionaire sitting across from him was the same man he'd humiliated less than a year earlier. But wait, how do we know Ponzi swore to take revenge on Chmielinsky that day? How do we know what was going through his head? Well, because luckily for us, Ponzi left behind a memoir. And despite how famous Ponzi was at his peak, he couldn't even get it published during his lifetime. We have access to it now only because one of the stray copies he'd sent out eventually made its way into print decades after it was written. It's a book that relatively few people have read, considering how well known his name is, and it gives us a window into his mindset, providing us with his version of events. Although he was a fraudster, it's actually shocking how much of his account is true. Even the parts that are exaggerated or fabricated are helpful to understanding what happened. In fact, they might be the most helpful.

[Joseph Daniels]

The best fraudsters are people that truly believe the story themselves.

[Maya Lau]

That's Eugene Soltis, a professor at Harvard Business School who studies white collar crime. He's something of an expert on Ponzi schemers.

[Joseph Daniels]

And I think when we look at Charles Ponce, when he writes that book, on one hand we can look at it as being, oh, my gosh, he's just exaggerating everything. He's larger than life. On the other hand, there's a part of me that thinks maybe he believes every line. That's actually how he sees himself. And if that's how he truly, genuinely sees himself, that's what makes him so effective, is that he is not telling a lie to other people. And so maybe in the end, how he saw the world and what he was able to describe to people is really all that matters.

[Maya Lau]

Take that scene we just heard. Ponzi claims the banker Smielinski really did make that comment about being a more of a bother than a benefit. We can't verify that it happened exactly like that, but what matters is that it represents how Ponzi feels. That he was being overlooked, underestimated, and condescended to. That bankers in the upper class were working only for themselves and keeping everyone else down. And it helps us understand how Ponzi rationalized what he was about to do. Ponzi may have sworn revenge on Chmielinsky, but it would have to wait. For now, Ponzi needed to come up with some other way to keep hanging on. He and Rose had no money. In fact, there were thousands in debt. And as the summer of 1919 gave way to fall, Ponzi was surely wondering how long Rose would remain patient with his ambitions. Especially as the sacrifices started to mount on her, too.

[Jordan Maglich]

500.

[Charles Ponzi]

For what? The pocket watch.

[Jordan Maglich]

The lot. Rings as well.

[Charles Ponzi]

Nah, that's. Listen, I think you might want to double check the math on that.

[Jordan Maglich]

I'm a pawn broker, not an appraiser. It's about what these are worth to me.

[Scott Janeco]

These rings are my mother's. They're very old.

[Jordan Maglich]

I'm sure they are, but they're cheap diamonds, and age doesn't make them any more valuable.

[Charles Ponzi]

Jesus. Fine, fine. 800.

[Maya Lau]

For the love of God.

[Charles Ponzi]

Hey. Good afternoon, Mr. Daniels.

[Pawnbroker]

I haven't seen you in a while. You trying to hide from me?

[Charles Ponzi]

Hardly. Here I am in the Flesh, as you could see.

[Pawnbroker]

Well, you're lucky I don't conduct this sort of business with ladies present. But you're gonna come by my store this week and pay for all that furniture in full. I'll be paying you visit.

[Jordan Maglich]

So you'll be taking the 500 then?

[Scott Janeco]

Charles, help me understand why the furniture maker is threatening you.

[Charles Ponzi]

I don't really think that's.

[Scott Janeco]

I don't think he'll be dropping by your office for tea and biscotti.

[Jordan Maglich]

500 there. Well, perhaps it's easier if I just give this straight to that other gentleman.

[Charles Ponzi]

So thoughtful.

[Scott Janeco]

500 is a lot of money. How much is your office rent, anyway?

[Charles Ponzi]

It's not just the current expenses, Rose. There's also, you know, previous expenses.

[Scott Janeco]

You mean debt?

[Charles Ponzi]

Potato, tomato.

[Scott Janeco]

One of those will hurt a lot more if it's hurled at your head.

[Jordan Maglich]

The offer will go down to 400 soon to account for wasting my time.

[Scott Janeco]

I could always go back to being a stenographer. We could save up, and then we could avoid all of this.

[Charles Ponzi]

You are a married woman. This situation is immediate, embarrassing enough as it is.

[Jordan Maglich]

I could hold on to her wedding ring, too, if that helps with appearances.

[Charles Ponzi]

Huh? Very considerate. I know what you're thinking.

[Scott Janeco]

Listen, you don't need to do this. Not for me.

[Jordan Maglich]

500 going once.

[Scott Janeco]

There's no shame in asking for your old job back, Rose.

[Charles Ponzi]

I. I just. I need a bit more time. And if it doesn't work out soon, then I'll figure something out. I'll go back to the clerk if I have to.

[Jordan Maglich]

I. Going twice.

[Charles Ponzi]

Tell me you believe in me.

[Scott Janeco]

It's not about you, Charlie. It's about everything else. I mean, the odds of people like.

[Jordan Maglich]

Us making it going three times.

[Charles Ponzi]

Give me a little bit more time, Rose. Please.

[Scott Janeco]

All right. Do it. I believe in you.

[Charles Ponzi]

Thank you. All right, all right. 500. But notice it's practically criminal.

[Scott Janeco]

Come on, Charlie. It's done now.

[Jordan Maglich]

A pleasure. Cufflinks always sell well for next time.

[Maya Lau]

Ponzi would later write.

[Charles Ponzi]

I looked everywhere for money. Found it nowhere. Gone into debt. Pawned the family jewels, sold everything except my soul to the devil. Even he knew he could get it for free if he held out a little longer.

[Maya Lau]

The devil may have been circling Ponzi, rubbing his hands together, but Ponzi was very close to the exact thing that would turn things around. He didn't know it yet, but he'd find it soon enough, lying patiently in his office. It's not just that Ponzi was running out of money. He was Also running out of time. This was going to be his last shot at making a name for himself. Which is why he started to sublet his office space to other businesses to stretch out those last dollars as long as he could in hopes of finding last minute success.

[Charles Ponzi]

Good night, Charles. Yeah, sure. The door of the office began to look like a directory with my own name buried in the middle somewhere, overshadowed and indistinct. But what I lost in dignity, I gained in peace of mind. I had enough time for one last shot.

[Maya Lau]

And sometimes all you need is one last shot. Sitting alone in his office one night, Ponzi found himself sorting through his correspondence. Each letter was an expression of interest in his now non existent trade journal. Proof that he'd been onto a good thing all along, even if no one else could see it. But that didn't matter now, because necessity, as they say, is the mother of invention. And just then, almost absentmindedly, Ponzi picked up a letter from Spain. And with it, he pulled out a small piece of paper about the size of a stamp. It was an international reply coupon. These weren't exactly exciting or unusual, except in that precise moment, his mind was especially alert. Hungry, desperate, he bent down to pick it up. And that's it. In a flash of inspiration, he saw in this coupon a path to riches.

[Charles Ponzi]

This coupon was going to change everything. This coupon. Heck, all of these coupons were basically free money. Like loose pennies on the ground, easy to overlook, but with enough of them just as good as gold. All you had to do was stoop down and pick it up. And I was going to prove that this was it.

[Maya Lau]

Ponzi's big idea. The one that led to his name being remembered a century later. He spent the following weeks doing all sorts of calculations and tests, sending money off to Europe to develop the plan that was brewing in his head. His plan soon certainly seemed incredibly promising. But it was still in an embryonic state when. Ponzi.

[Henry Schmielinski]

Open up.

[Pawnbroker]

I know you're in there.

[Charles Ponzi]

Uh, just a moment. Shit.

[Maya Lau]

He was alone in his office when the furniture maker, Joseph Daniels, showed up to collect his overdue payment. Money that Ponzi obviously didn't have.

[Pawnbroker]

You can't hide from me, Ponzi.

[Charles Ponzi]

I'm coming. Coming. No need to shout. Good evening, Mr. Daniels. I apologize. I'm a busy man.

[Pawnbroker]

Yeah, busy dodging creditors.

[Charles Ponzi]

Please excuse the mess. I wish you'd call the head so I could connect.

[Pawnbroker]

$200. Weeks overdue. And you'll be paying it tonight, one way or another, right?

[Charles Ponzi]

Yes. Well, why don't you sit down? That chair is, I suppose, technically still yours. You might as well use it while we discuss the matter. Please.

[Pawnbroker]

There's nothing more to discuss.

[Charles Ponzi]

No need for that. Although your chair is clearly very sturdy. Good craftsmanship.

[Pawnbroker]

You think this is funny? You think you can just talk your way out of this?

[Charles Ponzi]

No, that's not what I'm doing.

[Pawnbroker]

I have been patient, Ponzi. Believe me, I'd much rather you have handed me over the money, but I've got a business to.

[Joseph Daniels]

Okay.

[Pawnbroker]

And if I start letting creditors skip out on payments without consequences, then I'm out of business.

[Charles Ponzi]

Consequences? Look, I completely understand your frustration, I do. But if you just let me get into my desk tonight.

[Pawnbroker]

Your desk? You stay put. I'm not seeing any money in these drawers, Ponzi.

[Charles Ponzi]

Mr. Daniels, that's. That way.

[Pawnbroker]

Give me your wallet.

[Charles Ponzi]

I would, but I'm afraid your search there will be equally fruitless. But really, if you would just hear me out.

[Pawnbroker]

Hear you out?

[Rose Ponzi]

Why.

[Pawnbroker]

Why would I?

[Charles Ponzi]

Because I have your money. I mean, sort of. Just give me a chance to explain. While I don't have your money, per.

[Pawnbroker]

Se, and pretty soon you won't have your kneecaps, per se, I do have.

[Charles Ponzi]

Something else that I promise is worth your time. Not to mention what Worth a lot more than $200, believe me.

[Pawnbroker]

You got two minutes. And then we explore other repayment options.

[Maya Lau]

Coming up on this season of Easy Money.

[Joseph Daniels]

No one sets out to create a billion dollar Ponzi scheme.

[Maya Lau]

I was such a sucker. He really never had to convince me in any way at all to invest with him.

[Scott Janeco]

It says here that you're under investigation.

[Charles Ponzi]

Don't tell me you're losing faith in what we're doing here.

[Scott Janeco]

The challenge of proving the negative in.

[Maya Lau]

A Ponzi scheme is almost overwhelming.

[Charles Ponzi]

You don't call this guy a fraud, let alone a Ponzi, unless you have proof. Feels like fate, doesn't it?

[Maya Lau]

Easy money. The Charles Ponzi Story is an Apple original podcast produced by At Will Media, reported and hosted by me, Maya Lau. Our producers are Matt Hickey and Brigand Snow. Production support from Ann Margaret Warner, Lee Minjistu and Taylor Hosking. The show is written by Matt Hickey and Kevin Hines, with additional writing from Maya Lau and Brigand's Sleep. Our audio editor is Andrew Holzberger with support from Greg Debbins II and Zach Grappone. Field recordings by George Hicks. Original music is by John Naichez. Sound design and mix engineering by Sound and Fission. Scripted scenes directed by Katie Finneran. Casting for scripted scenes by Darrell Eisenberg. CSA fact checking by Sona Avakian. Ashley Taylor is our senior supervising producer. Executive producers are Will Malnati and Sebastian Maniscalco. Our co executive producer is Kevin Hines. The part of Charles Ponzi is played by Sebastian Maniscalco. Rose Ponzi by Candace Shedd Thompson, Henry Schmielinski by Richard Fisk, Joseph Daniels by Watt White and Pawnbroker by Martin Cohen. Additional parts played by Andrew Holzberger and Joe Hubbard. Legal services provided by Sean Gordon with Weintraub to Dobin and Carolyn Levin at mksr. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts.