Going Legitimate | 4

Summary

Easy Money: The Charles Ponzi Story
Episode: Going Legitimate | Episode 4
Release Date: June 30, 2025
Host: Maya Lau
Featuring: Sebastian Maniscalco as Charles Ponzi

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1. Introduction: The Duality of Charles Ponzi

The episode opens with a dramatic reenactment of Charles Ponzi's conflicted relationship with his faith. Despite his wife Rose's devout Catholicism, Ponzi himself rarely attended church. This tension is highlighted in a poignant scene where Ponzi seeks confession, revealing his willingness to bend moral codes for personal gain.

Key Scene: Confession with Father Xavier

• Charles Ponzi (16:44): "Is it that this influx of money can basically lead to compulsion, which is a form of being outside of your sound mind?"
• Father Xavier (01:09): "The Church does acknowledge that lesser sins can in some circumstances, be considered moral if committed in service of a greater good."

This interaction sets the stage for understanding Ponzi's internal struggles and ethical compromises.

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2. Lifestyle Transformation: From Cramped Apartment to Lavish Mansion

As Ponzi's scheme rapidly grows, so does his lifestyle. The podcast delves into the couple's move from a modest Boston apartment to an opulent Lexington, Massachusetts home. This section emphasizes the allure of sudden wealth and the ensuing compulsive spending that follows.

Highlights:

• Rose's Perspective (06:59): "Seven rooms, a huge walk-in closet, no grand staircase, a nice garden, no fountain, enormous windows, and not a single stained glass. This has everything."
• Charles's Ambition (09:03): "Discovered that buying expensive things felt good, really good. After I bought Rose that house, I was hungry for that feeling again."

The detailed description of their new home underscores Ponzi's escalating desire for status symbols, which inadvertently strains the sustainability of his scheme.

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3. The Onset of Trouble: Introducing Luke Casullo

Enter Luke Casullo, Ponzi's former cellmate, whose reappearance signals the beginning of external pressures on Ponzi. Their interactions reveal Ponzi's desperation to maintain his façade and prevent his scheme from unraveling.

Key Interaction:

• Luke Casullo (10:21): "Don't mind if I have one of these danishes, do you?"
• Charles Ponzi (13:24): "If you were under the heat, you would fold and just kind of want to go into a ball, into a corner."

Casullo's demands for financial assistance force Ponzi to divert funds, further destabilizing his operation.

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4. The Psychology of Sudden Wealth: Expert Insights

The episode features expert commentary from Michael Platt, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, who explains the psychological effects of abrupt wealth accumulation. Platt likens Ponzi's experience to that of lottery winners and professional athletes who rapidly spend large sums without understanding the long-term implications.

Expert Commentary:

• Michael Platt (17:24): "It was a mania, a frenzy, and... It just feels like, you know, oh, I can spend as much money as I want."
• Platt (18:53): "You find yourself lacking meaning and longing for something, perhaps, that was lost that you can't find just through wealth and through spending money."

These insights illustrate how Ponzi's lack of experience with substantial wealth led to reckless financial behavior, exacerbating his scheme's fragility.

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5. Ascending Ambitions: Ponzi's Quest to Own a Bank

Seeking legitimacy and power, Ponzi sets his sights on owning a bank. This ambitious move represents his desire to stabilize and legitimize his operations. The podcast dramatizes his strategic maneuvering to secure a controlling stake in the Hanover Trust.

Strategic Moves:

• Ponzi's Negotiation (20:30): "Mr. Smielinski, 200 shares is as useful to me as a trapdoor in a canoe."
• Boardroom Manipulation (23:34): "Let's vote now."

Ponzi's calculated efforts to gain influence within the bank illustrate his increasing desperation to control financial institutions, a move that ultimately tightens the noose around his fraudulent activities.

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6. The Crumbling Facade: Realizing the Impracticality of His Scheme

As the pressure mounts, Ponzi faces the harsh reality that his business model is unsustainable. The revelation that he needs billions of coupons—far exceeding historical totals—signals the impending collapse of his scheme.

Turning Point:

• Charles Ponzi (27:21): "That billion would be exceeding the total number of coupons that had ever been printed in all of history."

This moment of clarity forces Ponzi to confront the impossibility of fulfilling his obligations, highlighting the inevitable downfall of his fraudulent empire.

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7. Mounting Legal Challenges: Lawsuits and Investigations

Ponzi's financial misdeeds attract legal scrutiny, culminating in lawsuits that further deplete his already strained resources. The podcast underscores how legal battles exacerbate Ponzi's vulnerabilities, accelerating his descent into financial ruin.

Legal Struggles:

• Charles Ponzi (31:00): "Mr. Daniels seeks an injunction against the Security Exchange Company until such time that his promised share of the partnership is recognized and equitably distributed."
• Eugene Soltis (32:36): "If it was only about money, you would take a pile from people and then run gross."

These developments illustrate the tightening grip of legal consequences on Ponzi's operations, leaving little room for recovery.

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8. The Final Strands: Maintaining the Illusion

Despite the overwhelming signs of collapse, Ponzi continues to project confidence and control. His interactions with Rose and his staff reflect a man clinging to the illusion of success, even as his financial house teeters on the brink of disaster.

Persistent Facade:

• Charles Ponzi (30:19): "There's a certain magic in the morning when everything is just going your way."
• Rose Ponzi (30:59): "Mr. Ponzi, can I just worry about."

The continued pretense of stability underscores the tragic downfall of a man driven by greed and delusion, unable to recognize the imminent end of his fraudulent scheme.

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Conclusion: The Precipice of Collapse

The episode concludes with Ponzi's scheme reaching its breaking point. Legal pressures, unsustainable financial obligations, and mounting debts converge, setting the stage for the inevitable collapse that history now remembers.

Final Notes:

• Charles Ponzi (32:49): "I'm not under any obligation to settle."
• Eugene Soltis (33:07): "The fact that you want credibility, you want respect, allows you to have that fortitude and determination to keep it going."

These closing moments encapsulate Ponzi's relentless pursuit of legitimacy, even as the foundations of his empire crumble beneath him.

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Production Credits

Host: Maya Lau
Producers: Matt Hickey, Brigand Snow
Cast:

• Charles Ponzi: Sebastian Maniscalco
• Rose Ponzi: Candace Judd Thompson
• Luke Casullo: John Littlefield
• Henry Schmielinski: Richard Fisk
• Father Xavier: Jordan Di Mario
• Additional Voices: Brendan Lowry, Manu Pasqualini, Paul Kevins, PJ Serino, Wyatt Daniel Logan

Music and Sound:

• Original Music: John Naichez
• Sound Design and Mix Engineering: Sound and Fission

Writing and Direction:

• Written by: Matt Hickey, Kevin Hines, Maya Lau, Brigand Snow
• Scripted Scenes Directed by: Katie Finneran
• Casting: Darrell Eisenberg

Legal Services: Sean Gordon with Weintraub Tobin and Carolyn Levin at MKSr

Executive Producers: Will Malnati, Sebastian Maniscalco, Kevin Hines

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Transcript

[Narrator]

Although Rose Ponzi was a devout Catholic, her husband Charles was anything but. In fact, he seemed to be proud of the fact that he never set foot inside the church that was just a few doors down from his office. According to his memoir, there was one day, however, a few months into his business taking off, that Ponzi did find himself sitting before a priest.

[Charles Ponzi]

Um, I'm sorry, I don't. How do I start this again? Forgive me, Father. Or something.

[Father Xavier]

I suppose we can skip the part where I ask how long it's been since your last confession, and you can just tell me what brings you here.

[Charles Ponzi]

My wife.

[Father Xavier]

You've sinned against your wife?

[Charles Ponzi]

No, no, she's just been telling me I need to go to church more. Or at all. And, well, I've been wondering lately, actually, you might know a lot about this. If it's all right to lie to someone. If it helps. You know, to be clear, it's. It's a small lie. It's barely even noticeable. More like a white lie.

[Father Xavier]

The Church does acknowledge that lesser sins can in some circumstances, be considered moral if committed in service of a greater good.

[Charles Ponzi]

You know, I don't even know why I'm here. That's exactly what I was thinking.

[Father Xavier]

However, St. Augustine argued that we should remain truthful and trust in God to help others rather than commit sin and take on the burden ourselves.

[Charles Ponzi]

Oh, that's no burden, Father.

[Father Xavier]

I can't give you permission to lie, son, but I can give you forgiveness. All that matters is that you confess.

[Charles Ponzi]

Really? That's it? Oh, that's fantastic news. I'll have to thank Rose for sending me here. Actually, you probably know my wife, Rose Ponzi. She's a member of the parish. In fact, you married us a couple years ago.

[Father Xavier]

This is supposed to be anonymous, my child, but since you've already all but announced yourself.

[Narrator]

Miss.

[Father Xavier]

Mr. Ponzi, can I ask, was there anyone else waiting outside to confess?

[Charles Ponzi]

No. Place is empty except for the organist. Good. And listen, if you want to get a crowd in here on a Friday night, you gotta tell this guy to play something a little bit more upbeat.

[Father Xavier]

Because I have to tell you that the donations to the church are drying up.

[Charles Ponzi]

If it's a donation you're after, I'm happy to throw a little scratch in the basket.

[Narrator]

I actually.

[Father Xavier]

I had something else in mind.

[Charles Ponzi]

You mean. Like what? Dunhill Mary's.

[Father Xavier]

The chapel here is in need of repairs. I'd collected about $600 up until things slowed down, and I need quite a bit more. Are you following?

[Charles Ponzi]

Why Listen, Father, if I didn't know any better, I think you were saying, you want to invest the church's money with me.

[Father Xavier]

You understand? I can't gamble the church's money. I can only invest it in a safe thing. Will that be a problem?

[Charles Ponzi]

Well.

[Narrator]

Ponzi reflected on this moment later. He'd taken money from hundreds of people, from the poor and the rich, from friends and even family.

[Charles Ponzi]

But a priest? Could I tell a white lie to a priest?

[Narrator]

Even though he wasn't a religious man? Ponzi paused to confront just exactly what he was doing. A pause that didn't last very long.

[Charles Ponzi]

It turns out that, yes. Yes, I could. Your money will be in good hands, Father. Very well.

[Father Xavier]

The parish secretary will be in touch. Now go in peace, my child. Oh, and let's just call it tin hell. Mary's for the wise at your leisure.

[Narrator]

This is easy money. The Charles Ponzi Story, an Apple original podcast. Produced by AT Will Media, this show incorporates real interviews and historical research alongside dramatic reenactments and actors voices. We're out in front of the house that Ponzi and Rose lived in. It's pretty surreal to be looking at, actually recently sold for $4.1 million this year of 2024. Yeah. Standing here, it just. While in Boston reporting this story, I drove about a half hour to Lexington, Massachusetts, to visit another piece of Ponzi history. Lexington is actually where the American Revolutionary War started, But by the 1920s, it was a tony suburb with stately old homes. It was where Boston's professional class lived. The current owner didn't want to be named, but thankfully she was happy enough to give us a tour. I think everyone in town, yeah, kind of knows about it, but still, you know, I don't want to have anybody, you know, coming here just for that, you know, and in case it wasn't obvious just how big this house is, listen to that echo as we talk at one of the kitchen's two marble islands. We bought the house back in March, and then there was another family that was here after Charles Ponzi for I believe the family was here for about 80 years. So when you were looking at the house, did the real estate agents, were they open about the history of it? Yep, yep. It's pretty funny. I mean, my husband's in finance, so it's a little full circle moment. Although the house has been remodeled a lot over the past century, it's still wild to be walking through its halls and feel like I'm really close to this story. I've Been obsessing over for so long. It was built in 1913 in the colonial revival style, so that means old school, British inspired, New England wealthy person home. There's a huge round conservatory, kind of like a sunroom, jutting off to the side on the first floor, and a balcony on the second floor that wraps around the entire front of the house. Seven bedrooms, five and a half bathrooms, five car garage, sprawling gardens all around. You get the idea of activity. Yeah. And I'd love to get a nice picture, and I'd like to hang it in the house of what it used to look like, or of just of him or here at the house or something like that. Yes. Yeah. And do you know he did a press conference on his porch?

[Charles Ponzi]

No.

[Narrator]

Yeah. Oh, really? I think it was. I mean, it may have, but as gorgeous as it all was, it still wasn't enough for Ponzi when he first saw it.

[Rose Ponzi]

Oh, my. Look at it, Charlie.

[Charles Ponzi]

Mm.

[Rose Ponzi]

It's beautiful.

[Narrator]

With his business soaring, Ponzi and Rose could afford to move out of their cramped apartment. But unlike Ponzi, who would buy Buckingham palace if he could, Rose didn't want all that.

[Rose Ponzi]

Seven rooms, a huge walk in closet, no grand staircase, a nice garden, no fountain, enormous windows, and not a single.

[Charles Ponzi]

One of them stained glass.

[Rose Ponzi]

This is it.

[Charles Ponzi]

Really? Rose, this.

[Rose Ponzi]

Don't be like that, Charlie. I didn't want to move, so you said I could choose any house I wanted, and I choose this one.

[Charles Ponzi]

We could afford something much grander, I promise.

[Rose Ponzi]

Again with the grand. We're talking about a home. Our home. And I'd like to be able to move around it without having to leave a trail of breadcrumbs to find my way back. Even this place will need some staff to help with upkeep, which doesn't thrill me, but it is very cute.

[Charles Ponzi]

Yeah. Suppose my mother could stay here.

[Rose Ponzi]

Your mother was rich, not royalty. She'll hardly expect you to live in a castle.

[Charles Ponzi]

She might. And we could probably afford one, you know. Come on. Not a big castle, just a medium one with a moat.

[Rose Ponzi]

You once asked me to imagine our future. Let me do the same. Look around. Room for plenty of children. Oh, we can host the holidays in that big dining room over there. Have all the family around, your mother included. And that tree out front. Maybe a swing for said children. Oh, and we could fill that room over there with books. Have our own library. Plus it's close enough to the city that we can still go in and see shows and friends. Friends and family. It has everything.

[Charles Ponzi]

Except the fountain.

[Rose Ponzi]

Stop It. Your mother will be proud. Charlie.

[Charles Ponzi]

This is really what you want, dear.

[Rose Ponzi]

Yes.

[Narrator]

It may not have been the house he wanted, but not buying the most expensive house on the planet meant that Ponzi had money to burn.

[Charles Ponzi]

Discovered that buying expensive things felt good, really good. After I bought Rose that house, I was hungry for that feeling again. So I bought another one, and then another. But instead of satisfying my appetite, each expensive purchase only increased it. I became ravenous, putting my hooks out for everything in sight. And not just houses.

[Narrator]

Over the coming weeks, Ponzi acquired everything from a luxury car worth about $200,000 in today's money to a controlling share of a sardine factory up in Maine. Oh, and a meatpacking plant in Kansas City.

[Charles Ponzi]

The more I bought, the more I wanted to buy. It was a mania, a frenzy.

[Narrator]

He bought a macaroni company to make.

[Charles Ponzi]

Sure we wouldn't run out of pasta.

[Narrator]

And naturally, he even tried to buy the building his office was in because.

[Charles Ponzi]

I was sick of my landlord complaining about how my customers were blocking the entrance.

[Narrator]

Of course, there's a saying, more money, more problems. And for Ponzi, every dollar that went out the door was simply raising the stakes, turning his scheme into a ticking time bomb. And there was this whole other problem. A certain former cellmate who started to notice all of this spending.

[Rose Ponzi]

Charlie?

[Charles Ponzi]

I'm in the dining room, dear, if you want to join for breakfast before I go out.

[Luke Casullo]

Don't mind if I have one of these danishes, do you? What?

[Charles Ponzi]

Nothing. Nothing, darling. Kazulu, what are you doing here?

[Luke Casullo]

Well, I thought maybe we could ride into work together today, have a little chat. Nice house, by the way.

[Charles Ponzi]

Glad it's up to your exacting standards.

[Luke Casullo]

Well, that's sort of what I wanted.

[Charles Ponzi]

To talk to you about.

[Luke Casullo]

The wife's getting antsy in our apartment, which is making it hard for me to concentrate at work. All that nagging. You get it, right?

[Charles Ponzi]

Get to the point.

[Luke Casullo]

Well, that's my point. I need to upgrade our living situation to something like this.

[Charles Ponzi]

I think even under our little arrangements, something like this might be a little stretch for you.

[Luke Casullo]

Which is why I figured maybe we could, you know, stretch our little arrangement. You know, make it a bigger little arrangement. Are you right there, pal?

[Charles Ponzi]

Yeah, just processing what exactly it is you're saying.

[Luke Casullo]

Was that not clear?

[Charles Ponzi]

I guess not. Because I could have sworn you were saying that you expect me to buy you a house, which is obviously absurd, so why don't we just move on to what it is you really want, Lou?

[Luke Casullo]

Well, it doesn't need to be this big. Five rooms should suffice. By the way, could I have another Danish?

[Charles Ponzi]

These are delicious.

[Narrator]

What?

[Luke Casullo]

Don't tell me you can't afford it. Is the wizard of finance having cash flow problems? You better not let that get out. People might start asking questions.

[Rose Ponzi]

Charles, did you.

[Luke Casullo]

Oh, hello, Mrs. P, I presume. Lucas. Glad we could finally meet.

[Rose Ponzi]

Good morning. Are you an old friend of Charlie's or.

[Charles Ponzi]

He's just one of my employees.

[Luke Casullo]

Oh, come on now. We go back much further than that. All the way to Montreal, in fact.

[Rose Ponzi]

Really? He never talks about Montreal. Explains why I haven't heard your name. Casula, was it?

[Charles Ponzi]

We lost touch.

[Luke Casullo]

A lot of good stories from those days.

[Charles Ponzi]

Rose. Rose, could you go and choose me a new tie? I spilled a little jam on this one.

[Rose Ponzi]

It looks fine to me. And I want to hear more from your old friend here.

[Charles Ponzi]

I wiped it clean, but it'll be on my mind all day.

[Rose Ponzi]

Okay, I'll hurry back.

[Charles Ponzi]

Thank you, dear.

[Luke Casullo]

Well, she seems nice. Maybe me and the missus could just move in here instead. Sit around talking about old times with Mrs. Bianchi.

[Rose Ponzi]

Oh, I mean, green is okay.

[Charles Ponzi]

That sounds perfect. Where were we? Oh, your insane request, which is honestly probably grounds for involuntary commitment. You should be careful.

[Luke Casullo]

Look, I know you've been sending me out on these long errands to try and keep me away from your business here. I don't blame you, by the way. I'd probably do the same.

[Charles Ponzi]

Recall, I'm paying you for that. Overpaying you, some might say.

[Luke Casullo]

But then I got to thinking, how many other people? Actually Senior. Whole empire, all the offices, up and down the whole state. Because I think I might be the only one. And out of all the offices I've been to, what I don't really see is so much as one. One single coupon.

[Charles Ponzi]

So tactless and tawdry.

[Luke Casullo]

Look at you, talking all fancy these days. You certainly sound like someone who could afford another house. But are you all talk? That's a question. One I could probably have more people asking with a few straight comments here and there.

[Charles Ponzi]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but fine. I'll buy you a house. Christ. Maybe I'm the one out of my mind.

[Luke Casullo]

Well, doesn't that feel good? Helping out an old pal.

[Charles Ponzi]

But this is it, Kulo. Don't think you could swan into my kitchen every few months with your hand out, asking for more, more and more.

[Luke Casullo]

Well, let's not rule it out. Who knows how charitable you might be feeling in a Few months?

[Charles Ponzi]

Listen, I know that pastry box in your head is short of a few cannoli, but let me explain something basic to you about negotiation. You gotta know your leverage, man. You come spouting off about my past because I refuse some ridiculous demand of yours? Yeah, I'll admit I'll be in a tough spot. But you'd be exposing your own past as well as mine. Not to mention, I'm your meal ticket. This job, not a house. This is the most money you're ever gonna see in your life. And it all goes away if you bring me down. And then you'll just be another felon. And if you're lucky, you'll make a few bucks sweeping trash at the local train station. Or you could just shut up and keep the party going.

[Luke Casullo]

Yeah, well, maybe I hate parties then.

[Charles Ponzi]

I'd rather burn the place down than let you piss in my punch bowl. You think I'm bluffing? Go ahead. Try me.

[Narrator]

There he is.

[Luke Casullo]

There's the sharp tongue and brutal wit of my old friend. All right, I think we understand each other now. We'll just consider this a one off bonus.

[Charles Ponzi]

Then.

[Luke Casullo]

I'll see you out in the car. We can still ride in together, right?

[Narrator]

Even among all the strange and extravagant purchases, this buying a house for Kulo seems. Seemed extreme.

[Rose Ponzi]

Oh, your friend left already. Oh, yeah, he seems interesting.

[Charles Ponzi]

Nobody you should worry about. What does that mean?

[Rose Ponzi]

Oh, nothing. You'll have to tell me how you two met sometime. That it's quite a story.

[Narrator]

That encounter and Kulo's ongoing presence reminded Ponzi of just what he was dealing with. How precarious everything was. And how urgently he needed a solution to his problems. If only he could stay focused, which he couldn't. Ponzi had a lot of money, that much is clear. But he wasn't just hoarding it all for himself. He also spent it in ways that might even seem noble. He set up a fund for widows and orphans, handed out cash to struggling immigrants, and even repaid creditors from his father in law's failed fruit stand, debts he wasn't under any obligation to settle. Yet he felt obliged now that he was rich. Still, if it seemed to you that Charles Ponzi, once a confident, calculating dreamer, had become a bit reckless, well, he had. Because this influx of money, rather than getting him closer to the American dream, was proving to be a toxic force on his brain. A sugar rush to the system.

[Charles Ponzi]

It was a mania, a frenzy, and.

[Narrator]

There'S a lot of research to suggest that, in fact, that's exactly what it was. This effect even has a number of names. That's how well studied it. Sudden wealth syndrome, windfall effect, wealth shock. And I think a lot about this research when I get to this part of Ponzi's story. I mean, why would he spend so much money that at the end of the day, he didn't have?

[Michael Platt]

You win, like, you know, 40 million bucks in the lottery, like, you don't even know what that means. It's very, very abstract.

[Narrator]

That's Michael Platt, a professor of neuroscience, psychology, and marketing at the University of Pennsylvania.

[Michael Platt]

So it just feels like, you know, oh, I can spend as much money as I want. Because you've never had that amount of money.

[Narrator]

Is it that this influx of money can basically lead to compulsion, which is a form of being outside of your sound mind?

[Michael Platt]

There may be a compulsion there because the experience of that dopamine high. You see it with athletes, pro athletes, who get a big windfall. They're kids practically. They have no experience with that amount of money. You know, they burn through it, and their career's over in five years. And, you know, it's very much like.

[Narrator]

A lottery winner, which is also kind of like the situation Ponzi found himself in. And sudden wealth brings with it other complications, too. Deeper, more existential ones.

[Michael Platt]

If you are an individual like Ponzi, and you're making all this money and all of your needs are satisfied, then what else is there? And, you know, I don't think he's alone in that experience. I'm thinking like Citizen Kane, you know, Rosebud. You find yourself lacking meaning and longing for something, perhaps, that was lost that you can't find just through wealth and through spending money.

[Narrator]

And this is right on the money for our story, pun intended.

[Charles Ponzi]

Ah. The thing about money is that once you have enough of it, Come on. Getting more becomes easy. It's just as I expected. A nice little loop if you happen to be in it. And, God, I was. And while spending it remained fun enough, honestly, I never for one moment expected getting more money would become exceptionally dull.

[Narrator]

By July of 1920, Ponzi was bringing in the equivalent today of around $16 million every week. And all he had to do to keep it rolling in was maintain appearances.

[Charles Ponzi]

Once the boredom sets in, naturally you start thinking, what else could I do with this money? And you don't have to ponder too long before you arrive at one obvious conclusion. Power. And in America, nothing is more powerful than a bank. So I decided to get me one.

[Narrator]

Of those, which is what took Ponzi Back to a familiar setting from the very start of our story.

[Charles Ponzi]

2,200, Mr. Smielinski. 200 shares is as useful to me as a trapdoor in a canoe. 500. It's hardly better than 200. I want them all, or I want none.

[Narrator]

After deciding that he should own a bank, Ponzi figured it might as well be the one that all his money was in, which happened to be the Hanover Trust, a bank run by a man named Henry Chmielinsky, the very man who'd rudely refused Ponzi that small bank loan about a year earlier.

[Charles Ponzi]

A little wisdom. A man's true worth is in how he handles the door being slammed in his face.

[Narrator]

Chmielinsky had no recollection of Ponzi, no idea that the millionaire sitting across from him was the same man who had $0 in his bank account not so long ago. But Ponzi remembered their interaction, One that led him to swear revenge on the banker. And now, as the bank's biggest depositor, Ponzi had leverage over Chmielinsky, which he was more than happy to exploit.

[Charles Ponzi]

All right, let's drop the subject. We're getting nowhere with this. You could keep your bank, and I'll take my money elsewhere. Could you tell me what my balance is as of today? Actually, I'll sort it out with the teller. It's a shame that this 1,000 shares, now that's a quarter of this company. Sorry for taking up your time. 1500. I tried my best to act defeated, deflated. I don't know. I really did want 2000. A breathtaking performance, if I do say so myself. But I suppose if I was given a seat on the board of directors, then perhaps, maybe I could make peace with my disappointment and leave my money here. I. I can make that happen. Yes, Henry, you have a deal.

[Narrator]

1500 shares and a board seat wasn't in itself enough to give Ponzi what he wanted, but it's exactly what he needed, since this was actually step two of his cunning plan. He'd completed step one a week earlier.

[Charles Ponzi]

Let me ask you guys something. When was the last time someone at the Hanover Trust ever so much as wished you a happy Columbus Day? When have they ever accepted your struggling neighbor from the motherland with an open hand?

[Narrator]

Knowing Chmielinsky was unlikely to sell him a controlling share outright, Ponzi had arranged a secret meeting with the major Italian stockholders of the Hanover Trust.

[Charles Ponzi]

We're only as good to them as we are rich. I know that firsthand, don't you think it's time Boston had an Italian bank of its own? What exactly do you need us to do? How would you feel about signing over your shareholder votes to someone who more fully represents your interests?

[Narrator]

That is what he needed them to do.

[Charles Ponzi]

All right, everyone, the first Agenda item for today is the nomination of Charles Ponzi to the board. Starting with me and moving clockwise, the board shall vote yea or nay. Yay.

[Eugene Soltis]

Yay.

[Charles Ponzi]

Yay.

[Narrator]

Yay.

[Charles Ponzi]

Yay.

[Narrator]

Actually, he needed their votes, and he needed them to keep it a secret so that when he arrived at the Hanover Trust board meeting, no one would know the royal flesh in his hand at that moment. Least of all.

[Charles Ponzi]

Your motion regarding Mr. Ponzi. Yay or nay? Oh, yes. Yay. Congratulations, Mr. Ponzi. Welcome to the board. The next item on the agenda. Actually, now that I'm on the board, I'd like to nominate myself to lead the bank's executive committee. Just the most powerful position in the bank. Changes to the executive committee must be approved by a vote from shareholders. There are legal considerations which can be satisfied in this very room today. Since I represent a majority of the shareholders, and I would like to use those votes to approve this change immediately. Mr. Ponzi, you only own 1500 of the 2,000 new shares. There's still the original 2,000 shares, of which I've secured the voting rights for 600, which I believe gives me a balance of, what, 2,100 votes out of the 4,000, which is immature majority, if I'm not mistaken.

[Narrator]

Only then did the full scope of his plan become clear to the men in that room.

[Charles Ponzi]

So, shall we vote now?

[Luke Casullo]

You tricked me.

[Charles Ponzi]

Tricked? Come on. I prefer to say manipulated with ease, but actually, you did this to yourself when you refused my measly loan. What are you talking about? I'm talking about how you just never know who's going to be your largest investor. So, a little wisdom. If you're going to slam the door in someone's face, at least make sure you haven't left the key underneath the mat. What does that mean? Wow, you really don't remember me, do you? Never mind. Am I fired? Is that it? I considered it, but then I realized. Hank. You know, you don't mind if I call you Hank, do you? We're going to be a team, you and me, in this together. Although I will need you to move out of your office. I'm sure you'll understand.

[Narrator]

So, just to pause for a minute and take stock of the situation. Ponzi was now a bank owner. An impressive and, yes, powerful feat for anyone, much less someone who had been broke just six months earlier. And yet, neither owning a bank nor buying. Casullo's silence solved his main problem, that of his other business. You know, the one that was supposed to be arbitraging stamp coupons, which for now only worked on paper. Figuring out a solution to that was the thing that was going to make him legitimate, the thing that he was supposed to be spending his time on instead of, well, everything you just heard him doing.

[Charles Ponzi]

I'll have you know that I, in fact, been doing a lot of thinking about this very problem, trying to figure out a way around it. And I came to a very important conclusion. See, because my business had unexpectedly grown so much so quickly. When I finally got around to doing all the math, I realized in order to meet all the obligations to my investors, I needed roughly billions of coupons.

[Narrator]

Ponzi had put a lot of faith in his calculations so far, only now, returning to them after having glanced away for too long, they were telling him something not great.

[Charles Ponzi]

That's right, you heard me. That's billion. Would it be this exceeding the total number of coupons that had ever been printed in all of history?

[Narrator]

That was obviously a very big problem, and it wasn't even the only one. For anyone who'd cared to look, which seemingly wasn't many people, there was some pretty damning information out there that could easily sink confidence and find Ponzi's business plan. Get this, Italy, Romania and France had all stopped using international reply coupons entirely in April, about two months earlier.

[Charles Ponzi]

I know, I know. Trust me. I don't need you to tell me what a mess I got myself into, which is why I needed the bank to stay liquid. With 2 million in deposits, I had taken control of more than $5 million sitting in their vaults. Hopefully, I wouldn't need to dip into it, but if it came to that.

[Eugene Soltis]

I think many of us, look, if you were under the heat, you would fold and just kind of want to go into a ball, into a corner. But there's a different type of person that actually sees that as a challenge and you step up.

[Narrator]

That's Eugene Soltis, white collar crime expert at Harvard Business School, who we've heard from before.

[Eugene Soltis]

I genuinely think he wanted to make it work, but there had been a moment where he realized, like, this can't work. And I want to know, like, what did you think then?

[Narrator]

It's a real turning point.

[Eugene Soltis]

It was a turning point. It's like, I can't do this, yeah, I can appreciate. What he did is what, you know, every 27 year old that has a new idea for a startup is doing. Here's an idea, here's what it looks like on paper, and if you give me the capital, I'll run with it, I'll build that. And I think sometimes that idea doesn't actually work in practice, so you need to pivot and keep doing something, and that's what Charles Ponzi's doing.

[Charles Ponzi]

My whole life, I had plenty ideas, but no money to make them happen. Now I finally had the money, so all I needed was the idea. One that would make me rich and get me out of this, admittedly, very deep hole. I'm talking about an absolute whale of an idea. The biggest, best one I've ever had. And it would come to me, I knew it would. I just had to be patient, just had to keep things afloat. Until then.

[Narrator]

Until then, Ponzi just kept doing what he'd been doing for months. Smiling, presenting his column and in control. Taking in new money and using it to satisfy old obligations. It was a performance, and Ponzi had it almost perfected with that unfaltering smile. And the crowds outside growing bigger and bigger. He was only growing more comfortable in the spotlight.

[Charles Ponzi]

There's a certain magic in the morning when everything is just going your way. It's all choreography, handshakes, little back slap. I promise, each day you step into a role and I gotta tell you, it just clicks.

[Narrator]

You're the greatest Italian in history.

[Charles Ponzi]

I'm the second greatest after Columbus and the inventor of pasta, so the third greatest. Everyone's smiling, phones are ringing, money moving faster than you could keep track of. That's music. And you're dancing right along with it. Pardon. Coming through.

[Rose Ponzi]

Good morning, boss.

[Charles Ponzi]

It certainly is A Good morning, Ms. Melly.

[Rose Ponzi]

Well, actually, I.

[Charles Ponzi]

Come on, bring me up to speed. Where do we stand today?

[Rose Ponzi]

Well, 120,000 in this office. But, sir, I.

[Charles Ponzi]

And the Manchester office?

[Rose Ponzi]

45 when I last checked. But we really should talk about this.

[Charles Ponzi]

Hello. Good to see you. How's the kids? Good, good, thank you. Oh, you're looking well, Mr. Musetti. Beautiful hat. Thank you. People want to believe in you. And who am I to disappoint?

[Rose Ponzi]

Mr. Ponzi, can I just worry about.

[Charles Ponzi]

The numbers of Portsmouth? Just put them in my report and give me a reservation at Young's Hotel for lunch, please. You're so good, even you believe. Ms. Melly. What's the matter? Because why wouldn't you? The applause keeps coming and the curtain never seems to fall. But then, who's Joseph Daniels? Daniels? He made our furniture. He was our first customer, actually. Why?

[Rose Ponzi]

This was in the mail. It says he's suing us for a million dollars.

[Charles Ponzi]

Mr. Daniels seeks an injunction against the Security Exchange Company until such time that his promised share of the partnership is recognized and equitably distributed.

[Narrator]

Given his recent influx of money, a million dollars might not seem like much. But remember, all Ponzi had to work with was his customers money. Money he'd used to fund all these big purchases we heard about. His margin for error was shrinking, the chances for catastrophe growing with each dollar that went out the door. And now, suddenly, he risked losing another million to a lawsuit. In other words, his cushion was getting very thin.

[Charles Ponzi]

But the show must go on. Even when the music.

[Narrator]

Next time on Easy Money.

[Eugene Soltis]

If it was only about money, you would take a pile from people and then run gross.

[Charles Ponzi]

We're gonna take you to Italy. It's just not the right time.

[Rose Ponzi]

I knew it shouldn't have gotten excited.

[Eugene Soltis]

The fact that you want credibility, you want respect, allows you to have that fortitude and determination to keep it going.

[Charles Ponzi]

Why not arrange a long sit down.

[Luke Casullo]

Interview with the Boston Post immediately?

[Rose Ponzi]

Doubles money within three months, has thousands of investors.

[Charles Ponzi]

I know a front page headline of the Post. Who's ready to make some money?

[Rose Ponzi]

It says here that you're under investigation.

[Charles Ponzi]

The Boston Post is here again. Bonzie, you can't tell us how you acquired so many coupons.

[Luke Casullo]

He's still asking a lot of questions.

[Charles Ponzi]

Just tell him something to shut him up.

[Luke Casullo]

An answer tends to do the trick.

[Charles Ponzi]

I can't just ignore a court order. You can't seriously be entertaining this demand. I need access to my.

[Narrator]

Easy money. The Charles Ponzi Story is an Apple original podcast produced by At Will Media, reported and hosted by me, Maya Lau. Our producers are Matt Hickey and Brigand Snow. Production support from Ann Margret Warner, Lee Mingistu and Taylor Hosking. The show is written by Matt Hickey and Kevin Hines with additional writing from Maya Lau and Brigand Snow. Our audio editor is Andrew Holzberger with support from Greg Devens II and Zach Grappone. Field recordings by George Hicks. Original music is by John Naichez. Sound design and mix engineering by Sound and Fission. Scripted scenes directed by Katie Finneran. Casting for scripted scenes by Darrell Eisenberg. CSA Fact checking by Sona Avakian. Ashley Taylor is our senior supervising producer. Executive producers are are Will Malnati and Sebastian Maniscalco, our co executive producer. Is Kevin Hines. The part of Charles Ponzi is played by Sebastian Maniscalco, Rose Ponzi by Candace Judd Thompson, Luke Casullo by John Littlefield, Henry Schmielinski by Richard Fisk, Lucy Meli by Stephanie Hong and Father Xavier by Jordan Di Mario. Additional parts played by Brendan Lowry, Manu Pasqualini, Paul Kevins, PJ Serino and Wyatt Daniel Logan. Legal services provided by Sean Gordon with Weintraub Tobin and Carolyn Levin at mksr. Follow and listen on Apple Podcast.