Who’s Ready to Make Some Money? | 5

Summary

Easy Money: The Charles Ponzi Story
Episode: Who’s Ready to Make Some Money? | 5
Release Date: July 7, 2025
Host: Maya Lau
Featuring: Sebastian Maniscalco as Charles Ponzi

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Introduction: A Premature Triumph

In this episode, host Maya Lau delves deeper into the meteoric rise of Charles Ponzi, exploring the personal and professional challenges that began to threaten the stability of his burgeoning empire. Set against the backdrop of Boston in July 1920, the narrative captures the tension between Ponzi's lavish lifestyle and the mounting pressures from legal troubles and skeptical public scrutiny.

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Personal Struggles and Mounting Pressures

The story opens with Charles Ponzi and his wife, Rose, reminiscing about their journey from humble beginnings to newfound wealth. Their conversation highlights the strain that Ponzi's aspirations and the pressures of his scheme are placing on their marriage.

[00:17] Charles Ponzi: "Then he said, you're so arrogant, you probably send yourself a thank you card for attending your own parties."

[02:24] Charles Ponzi: "I'm afraid we're not going to Italy, Charles. Not right away."

As Ponzi grapples with a million-dollar lawsuit, his fear of public perception and the potential fallout becomes evident. Rather than fleeing, he chooses to "double down," a decision that deepens his entanglement in the scheme.

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Enter William McMasters: The Catalyst for Scrutiny

William McMasters, a principled and morally driven former journalist turned PR specialist, enters the scene as Ponzi seeks to manage his public image amid growing suspicions. Their first meeting sets the stage for a pivotal alliance that will have far-reaching consequences.

[10:06] Faith Dickerson (McMasters' descendant): "He was very principled, what we would call moralistic. There was right and wrong and good and bad, and that was certainly the case with the Ponzi story."

McMasters quickly orchestrates a high-profile interview with the Boston Post, aiming to bolster Ponzi's reputation and attract more investors.

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The Boston Post Interview: A Double-Edged Sword

The interview with the Boston Post proves to be a turning point. While it garners immense positive publicity, drawing throngs of eager investors, it also inadvertently shines a harsher light on Ponzi's operations, including the ongoing investigations.

[16:04] Rose Ponzi: "A proposition fathered by Charles Ponzi."

The glowing coverage fuels a frenzy among the public, with thousands flocking to invest, but the mention of investigations plants seeds of doubt that threaten to undermine Ponzi's facade.

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Ponzi Mania: Swirling Crowds and Surging Investments

Ponzi's charisma and salesmanship are on full display as he manages a seething crowd desperate to invest. The influx of capital seems to validate his scheme, bolstering his confidence and reinforcing his self-image as a folk hero destined to democratize wealth.

[19:31] Charles Ponzi: "Good morning, Boston. Who's ready to make some money?"

Within days, Ponzi's operations swell with cash influxes estimated between $16 million to $60 million in today's currency, signaling the peak of his scheme's popularity and the beginning of its inevitable downfall.

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Rising Suspicion: Legal Challenges and Public Scrutiny

Despite the outward success, the underlying instability of Ponzi's scheme becomes increasingly apparent. Law enforcement intensifies its investigations, and the integrity of Ponzi's business practices comes under severe scrutiny.

[17:28] Maya Lau: "Investigations began several months ago into what some are calling."

As authorities examine the legitimacy of Ponzi's operations, the pressure mounts, threatening to unravel the delicate balance Ponzi has maintained.

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The New York Buyer: A Deal That May Seal Ponzi's Fate

A crucial encounter with a New York business syndicate introduces a potential lifeline—or a deadly threat—to Ponzi's empire. The negotiations reveal cracks in Ponzi's confidence and expose McMasters' true intentions.

[32:19] William McMasters: "I want you to set up an account under a different name."

The deal, fraught with tension, serves as a catalyst for McMasters' growing doubts about Ponzi's legitimacy, setting the stage for internal conflict and betrayal.

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McMasters' Transformation: From Ally to Adversary

As McMasters becomes entangled in the complexities of Ponzi's scheme, his initial support wanes, giving way to skepticism and ethical concerns. The pivotal moment occurs during a fraught interaction where McMasters grapples with the moral implications of his involvement.

[39:08] William McMasters: "I don't know how much or how little is left."

McMasters' internal struggle culminates in his decision to leverage his position to either validate Ponzi's legitimacy or expose the fraud, hinting at future confrontations and unraveling of the scheme.

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Confrontations and Cracks in the Façade

Tensions escalate as Ponzi's facade begins to falter under the weight of legal pressures and personal conflicts. Rose confronts Ponzi about the disintegration of their personal life amidst the chaos of his illicit activities.

[35:35] William McMasters: "Having a audit forced on you appears guilty."

The episode highlights the inevitable clash between Ponzi's ambition and the unsustainable nature of his scheme, setting the stage for the impending downfall.

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Conclusion: The Inevitable Downfall Looms

As the episode draws to a close, the cracks in Ponzi's operation deepen, foreshadowing the unraveling of his scheme. McMasters' dual role as both ally and potential adversary introduces a complex dynamic that heightens the suspense, leaving listeners anticipating the next developments in Ponzi's dramatic rise and fall.

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Notable Quotes:

• Charles Ponzi:

  "[00:31] 'Your landlady, Mrs. Lombardi, she caught you staring while I was waiting for her streetcar.'"

• William McMasters:

  "[39:43] 'I just. I. I don't know how this little man goes from being broke a year ago to this.'"

• Rose Ponzi:

  "[35:48] 'Ponzi schemes are an insidious crime to.'"

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Key Insights and Themes

• Charisma and Manipulation: Ponzi's ability to charm and manipulate public perception plays a crucial role in the expansion of his scheme.

• Moral Ambiguity: The introduction of McMasters underscores the moral complexities and ethical dilemmas inherent in white-collar crimes.

• Inevitability of Downfall: Despite initial successes, the episode highlights the unsustainable nature of Ponzi's operations, setting the stage for his eventual collapse.

Conclusion

Episode 5 of Easy Money: The Charles Ponzi Story masterfully intertwines dramatized dialogues with insightful commentary, painting a vivid picture of Ponzi's complex world. As Ponzi's scheme reaches its zenith, the seeds of his downfall are meticulously sown, driven by personal conflicts, legal challenges, and the unraveling of trusted alliances. This episode not only chronicles the rise of one of history's most infamous con artists but also delves into the psychological and moral intricacies that underpin such elaborate frauds.

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Follow and Listen:
Stay tuned for the next episode of Easy Money: The Charles Ponzi Story, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript

[Maya Lau]

In early July, 1920, Ponzi and Rose were set to visit his mother in Italy, a triumphant return for the son who'd left his homeland completely broke 17 years earlier and was now living the high life on the other side of the world.

[Charles Ponzi]

Then he said, you're so arrogant, you probably send yourself a thank you card for attending your own parties. So then I said, only if I could find a stamp with my own face on it.

[Rose Ponzi]

Rose, the station across the street, that's where we met, remember? Right by that awning. Turn around.

[Charles Ponzi]

Why? I already have the best view in the city.

[Rose Ponzi]

Your landlady, Mrs. Lombardi, she caught you staring while I was waiting for her streetcar. And when she introduced us, you just stood there, couldn't even make a sound.

[Charles Ponzi]

As I recall, you were on a date at the time. I didn't want to make a scene. And it was already late.

[Rose Ponzi]

It was charming. Just let it be charming, okay? Less is more, they say.

[Charles Ponzi]

They do say that. And they also say money can't buy happiness. Mm. Oh, God. But I assume whoever coined that phrase never tried these palm souffles. Come on, try some. It's just fancy potatoes.

[Rose Ponzi]

You stared at me the entire ride back to the North End.

[Charles Ponzi]

How would you know? I was sitting behind you.

[Rose Ponzi]

A girl can tell. And I pulled out my makeup mirror at one point to check.

[Charles Ponzi]

You haven't told me that. You're very nostalgic this evening, Mrs. Ponzi.

[Rose Ponzi]

Ever since you bought those tickets to Italy.

[Charles Ponzi]

I'm actually glad you brought that up.

[Rose Ponzi]

I've just been thinking about us, how far we've come.

[Charles Ponzi]

I was actually. Let me put it this way. What do you say to expanding our household a little?

[Rose Ponzi]

Charles, are you saying. Oh, if it's a boy, we can name him to my father. Wait, what?

[Charles Ponzi]

I already wired the 5,000 in Italy. She'll be on the next ship out.

[Maya Lau]

Ponzi had already started arranging their trip to Italy. But after being sued for a million dollars, he started to get nervous about what some people might say if he was suddenly not around. Which is why he decided to make other arrangements.

[Charles Ponzi]

Now, you're gonna love having her around. My mother has an incredible ravioli recipe. The one I've told you about.

[Rose Ponzi]

You know, let's ship out. Why doesn't she just come back with us after our trip there?

[Charles Ponzi]

Okay, so that's the other thing. I'm afraid we're not going to Italy, Charles. Not right away. I know you had your heart set on it, but it's just not the right time.

[Rose Ponzi]

I knew it. Shouldn't have gotten excited.

[Charles Ponzi]

Gross. I'm gonna take you to Italy. Just not now. Now. Hey, hey. Look into my eyes. I can't lie to you. Remember?

[Rose Ponzi]

That's what's worrying me. I know that you mean it. Right now, in this moment. I know you believe it. But you told me you wanted to be your own boss, that you wanted to have money, a nice house. You got all of that. But things keep getting bigger and bigger. I mean, you own a bank now, Charlie.

[Charles Ponzi]

Rose, there's people.

[Rose Ponzi]

And we've hardly even discussed the million dollar lawsuit. I can't even believe that's a sentence.

[Charles Ponzi]

That's a no sense, Sue.

[Rose Ponzi]

I don't care what it is. When does this end, Rose?

[Charles Ponzi]

I understand. I do. This has all caught me off guard. As much as you. And I know I said that things would calm down soon, but honestly, it might not be soon. Maybe not even this year. But it will happen. And when it does, we'll have the rest of our lives together. Decades, family, Italy. We could even invite the landlady, Mrs. Lombardi.

[Rose Ponzi]

There you go again, trying to charm me.

[Charles Ponzi]

So what do you say? More fancy potatoes?

[Rose Ponzi]

You're a potato.

[Maya Lau]

Ponzi deciding not to flee was one way of doubling down. And now, by relocating his mother and planting his roots even deeper in Boston, he was going all in. He cut loose his final life raft, as he put it, leaving him absolutely no choice now but to make everything work, or he was gonna go down in flames trying. This is easy money. The Charles Ponzi Story, An Apple original podcast prod by At Will Media. This show incorporates real interviews and historical research alongside dramatic reenactments and actors voices. Ponzi was, by instinct, a master of psychology. So his concern that a vacation to Italy might look like he was fleeing from Boston and the million dollar lawsuit and any other problems was probably valid, even if it did add more strain on his marriage. But why didn't he just take the money and run? After all, Ponzi was an Italian citizen, and Italy didn't have an extradition treaty with the US he could have packed a suitcase with money, gotten on a boat, and lived out the rest of his life rich and beyond the reach of the law. But as bad as his situation was, he just couldn't bring himself to do that.

[Eugene Soltis]

In fact, if it was only about money, you would take a pile from people and then run. But buying a big house here in Lexington, you're literally doing the exact opposite. You're literally almost cementing yourself down.

[Maya Lau]

Eugene Soltis, our white Collar crime expert again.

[Eugene Soltis]

But the fact that you want credibility, you want respect, allows you to have that fortitude and determination to keep it going, even when you know it's going to fail down the road.

[Maya Lau]

And so does that help explain why some of them, like Ponzi, don't flee?

[Eugene Soltis]

Very few people are caught outright without any sense that something is, like, amiss. So you would expect everyone to flee. I mean, they have the resources. They have the means. There are a lot of places in the world that would be very happy to take a wealthy but slightly dodgy individual, but people don't. Because you care about your reputation, you're not doing.

[Maya Lau]

You don't want to be a failure. You don't want to be the loser who runs away.

[Eugene Soltis]

They don't want to be seen as a failure in the eyes of, you know, their former classmates, the people in the business community, their friends.

[Maya Lau]

In other words, if he fled, he would be admitting failure. If he stayed, he at least had a chance of delivering on his promises, which is why he took special inspiration from a certain other Italian who sailed to America. And I'm not talking about his mother.

[Charles Ponzi]

Four hundred years ago, Columbus had set out on what he thought was the western route to Asia. And on the way, he ran right into America. A complete accident, but a happy one. My point is, you never know what lies over the horizon unless you keep sailing. Maybe I'd soon find my America, something out there to get me out of this predicament. As long as there was a chance that I could make good on my promises and deliver riches to the good people of Boston, I was gonna sail on, hoping to find new land somewhere beyond the horizon and hoping to do it soon.

[Maya Lau]

Unfortunately for Ponzi and Rose, too, the complications were still mounting. And not entirely by accident. His efforts to win the public's confidence would soon mean the spotlight was shining on him even more brightly than before. And he was about to meet someone who would alter the trajectory of his story forever. How are you related to William McMasters?

[Faith Dickerson]

I am his grandchild and only grandchild.

[Maya Lau]

That is Faith Dickerson, a psychologist in Maryland and a descendant of one of the key players in this story, someone Ponzi was about to meet.

[Faith Dickerson]

He led a very colorful life, more than I fully appreciated at the time. He had been a journalist, and that was his passion. He'd written a play that was on Broadway way briefly. I knew that he was very political. He knew Speaker McCormick in the House of Representatives.

[Maya Lau]

William McMasters was a politically connected former journalist turned PR guy. He actually helped future president Calvin Coolidge get elected as Massachusetts governor. And since Ponzi wanted someone to help manage the press while he grew his empire, McMasters seemed like the perfect fit. But still, soon he'd become the perfect foil for Ponzi.

[Faith Dickerson]

He was very principled, what we would call moralistic. There was right and wrong and good and bad, and that was certainly the case with the Ponzi story. It was very clearly right and wrong there.

[Maya Lau]

What kind of stories, if any, were told about your grandfather and his role in the Ponzi scandal?

[Faith Dickerson]

Not much when I was growing up. I became more keenly aware of it after he died in 1968 because I inherited all of his papers and all of his special effects. So then when I had all the documents in these boxes, it sparked my curiosity.

[Maya Lau]

Those papers, by the way, are now housed in the archives at the back of a college library in Manhattan, and we read through them all. Included in those boxes is a copy of William McMaster's memoir, which was only discovered after the most recent biography of Ponzi was published. Certainly some of the broad strokes of McMaster's involvement were known, but this is the first time a lot of this information has been told, like how he described their first meeting, which he recounted in the book's opening chapter, read here. By faith.

[Faith Dickerson]

I first met Ponzi on Friday afternoon, July 23rd, the summer of 1920. That morning, I had received a telephone call from an old friend of mine. I, a former congressman. He asked me if I could come to the office around 3 o' clock that afternoon to do some publicity work, and I said yes. When I went into the office, I saw a dapper little chap, obviously of Italian extraction. First Mr. McMasters, he started out. Let me assure you that I am.

[Charles Ponzi]

A man makes up his mind to do a thing, and I do it. Tell me, do you think it's fair to the poor, hardworking depositors of ordinary banks that they get just 2 or 3% on their money while the managers and stockholders take the rest and hit the golf courses by mid afternoon?

[William McMasters]

I don't know if things are quite as simple as that, but yes, the world does strike me as unfair, especially for the poor.

[Charles Ponzi]

Unfair isn't the right word, Mr. McMasters. It's criminal. Under cover of a chartered.

[Maya Lau]

According to McMaster's memoir, Ponzi laid out a plan that involved taking over even more banks and using the press to curry favor with both policymakers and the public.

[Charles Ponzi]

Nothing. We have to change that. What do you think?

[William McMasters]

Well, Charles was It. I'm not quite sure what you want me to say, seeing as how I don't actually work for you yet.

[Charles Ponzi]

If you're as good as my contacts say you are, then you've already recognized what a unique opportunity this is. And I assure you, money won't be a problem. So all I need to know is, is what do you think? Are you the man for the job?

[Maya Lau]

McMasters thought for a moment. To him, getting publicity for someone as rich and successful and talkative as Ponzi seemed too easy. Why not go for it?

[William McMasters]

Well, Mr. Ponzi, you're not short on vision. What I think is, why not arrange a long sit down interview with the Boston Post immediately? I can set it up for this afternoon.

[Charles Ponzi]

I love it. Just the kind of thinking I was after.

[William McMasters]

Wonderful.

[Maya Lau]

And so he did. Almost immediately. The Boston Post had one of the largest circulations in the entire country at the time. And Ponzi's big interview with them began just hours later. And it was a long one. Beginning at Ponzi's office in the afternoon and continuing late into the night back at Ponzi's Lexington mansion.

[Charles Ponzi]

Well, this has been fun. Could I offer anybody a nightcap before we call it a day?

[William McMasters]

That's off the record, of course.

[Reporter]

Flouting prohibition is far from the Post's interest in your client. But since we're off the record. Whiskey, please.

[Charles Ponzi]

William? No, no, none for me.

[Reporter]

And being off the record, perhaps you might like to finally divulge a few more of your secrets. Hearing your life story has been interesting enough, but my boss is very intrigued about your actual business. And so far, we're struggling to turn up anything too insightful.

[Charles Ponzi]

That's because there's not really much to tell. It's really all as plain and simple as it seems.

[Reporter]

I think that's what's concerning him. I mean, look at this place. All from stamps.

[Charles Ponzi]

Listen, all I could tell you beyond everything that's already known publicly, is that the reason my business is so successful is that I figured out a system where. Where nobody, at any stage of the process, loses money. There's no losers, only winners. Everybody makes a profit. In a sense, I create money for everyone.

[Reporter]

With all due respect, Mr. Ponzi, that's absurd.

[Charles Ponzi]

And so is a giraffe.

[Reporter]

Pardon?

[Charles Ponzi]

Remember the one about the old rube who've never seen a giraffe? Someone describes one to him, and you know what he says? It's ridiculous. There's no such animal. And then he saw one.

[Reporter]

But I'm not seeing a Giraffe? You're still just describing it.

[Charles Ponzi]

The giraffe itself is in my company's.

[Reporter]

Books, which I'm not allowed to see.

[William McMasters]

Surely it's not so odd for a private company to keep its inner workings private.

[Reporter]

No, what's odd is everything else, and.

[Charles Ponzi]

I've never claimed anything to the contrary. That's why you're here late on a Friday night, isn't it? Would you be burning the midnight oil for someone who isn't odd?

[William McMasters]

Perhaps we'd say interesting rather than odd.

[Reporter]

We could say that. And speaking of it being late, since it seems I won't be invited on safari, I better go write this up or there won't be any story. They've already held the presses, so we can get this into tomorrow's edition. Thanks for the hospitality and the candor, Mr. Ponzi. The former more than the latter.

[Charles Ponzi]

Anytime. Bar's always open. Off the record. That went well, right?

[William McMasters]

As a former journalist, I can tell you they tend to prefer answers to fancy footwork.

[Charles Ponzi]

Come on. He was enjoying himself. His article's gonna be stuffed with quotes.

[William McMasters]

And light on detail.

[Charles Ponzi]

All in good time. This is just the start, William.

[William McMasters]

We might get lucky this time, but you'll eventually have to tell them.

[Charles Ponzi]

Yeah, but it's late. Then I should, you know, see my wife before she goes to bed. You know your way out, right? Find a butler. If not. Hey, and listen, I'm gonna pick you up in the morning, and we can strategize some more on the way to the office. Great first date.

[Maya Lau]

Both men went to bed hopeful that the next day's coverage would be positive. But neither could have imagined just how the city of Boston would react when the story, being typeset late into the night, landed on their doorstep.

[Rose Ponzi]

Double's money within three months has thousands of investors.

[Charles Ponzi]

I know. A front page headline of the Post. It's practically an advertisement.

[Rose Ponzi]

A proposition fathered by Charles Ponzi. Head of the securities Exchange Company is sweeping Boston. People are falling over themselves. This almost literally, to loan him their money.

[Maya Lau]

The piece was largely glowing. It included that headline about doubling money, as well as column after column of Ponzi regaling the journalist with his life story. But there was one interesting detail missing.

[Rose Ponzi]

All this talk about your years slogging about America, and you didn't even mention Alabama. Why not tell the journalists what you did for that poor woman?

[Charles Ponzi]

Because I didn't do that for publicity, Rose.

[Maya Lau]

We'll pick up on that later. For now, Ponzi figured there was enough information for the public to make up their minds about him.

[Charles Ponzi]

Look at this part. All my life I have said that if I make $1 million, that I could live happily and comfortably. Anything I earn over and above that will be spent on trying to do good in this world.

[Rose Ponzi]

I'm pretty sure we have more than a million dollars already.

[Charles Ponzi]

It's a figure of speech. Just keep reading.

[Maya Lau]

That quote about stopping when he got to a million dollars was a real line from his interview, one that helped Ponzi come off looking good, a hero for the common man. But there were other parts to the story, parts that were less flattering.

[Rose Ponzi]

What it says here that you're under investigation.

[Maya Lau]

It did. Since news of the Daniels lawsuit hit the presses, authorities had started paying more attention to Ponzi.

[Charles Ponzi]

It's just a small part of the story.

[Rose Ponzi]

Multiple investigations, the state's attorney general, the district attorney, the banking commissioner, the Postmaster general.

[Charles Ponzi]

Look at the part right here. Ponzi himself is an interesting figure.

[Rose Ponzi]

Investigations began several months ago into what some are calling.

[Charles Ponzi]

It says quite clearly that these investigations haven't found anything. I mean, come on. Do you think Rockefeller was never subjected to government scrutiny?

[Rose Ponzi]

Oh, so we're Rockefellers now?

[Charles Ponzi]

We're better. We're us now. I gotta get going.

[Rose Ponzi]

Don't forget my family's coming over to meet your mother tomorrow.

[Charles Ponzi]

I'm looking forward to it. And speaking of Mama, make sure she sees the paper, will you?

[Rose Ponzi]

That's not the most important thing.

[Charles Ponzi]

It is to her.

[Maya Lau]

Though Ponzi could barely see past that tantalizing headline. Would others? The investigations reported in the paper had mostly been limited to informal conversations between Ponzi and various government representatives. But it could very easily spook the thousands of investors he had at this point. They'd handed millions of dollars over to a man with no financial track record. And if enough of them showed up to withdraw their money, things could get ugly for Ponzi very, very fast.

[William McMasters]

The Associated Press is sending someone by this afternoon for a short interview. And then.

[Charles Ponzi]

Quiet, quiet, quiet. What's that? Would you look at that? William, I knew that story would be a winner. I told you.

[William McMasters]

Don't get so excited.

[Charles Ponzi]

Driver, just stop here. We'll walk through.

[William McMasters]

For all we know, they're carrying pitchforks, trying to get their money back. Be careful, Charles.

[Charles Ponzi]

Hey, there he is. He's here. Take my money. Good morning, Boston. Who's ready to make some. Some money?

[Maya Lau]

Ponzi, it turns out, had been right. All people cared about was that headline. The Boston Post described the crowd awaiting him at the office as a quote, Swirling, seething, gesticulating, jabbering throng. Police officers had to quote, stand in the building doorway to hold turbulent crowds in check while people fought with one another, men, women and children alike, to gain entrance. That's how desperate they were to hand over their money to Ponzi after reading the paper that morning.

[Charles Ponzi]

Come on, William.

[Maya Lau]

Hey, Ponzi.

[Charles Ponzi]

Excuse me, coming through. Ponzi. Ponzi. Buongiorno. Ah. Your jacket is ripped. Take this and buy yourself a new one. Grazzi. Grazzi. Millennium. And learn to speak like them. Nobody here will give you a thing until you sound like one of them.

[William McMasters]

Who was that?

[Charles Ponzi]

That was me 17 years ago. And it would still be me now if not for a bit of luck. It's why we need to keep fighting.

[William McMasters]

We?

[Charles Ponzi]

You're on my team now. We're taking on the bankers of this town. Because if not me, who else will fight for these people?

[Maya Lau]

More. More and more, Ponzi saw himself as a folk hero, here to help the common man. And he was convinced he'd be able to do so. A conviction that only grew because that day, he took in the equivalent of more than $3 million before noon at his main branch. Across his whole empire, Ponzi estimated his takings were around $16 million in today's money, while McMasters pegged it at closer to the equivalent of 60 million. That was all in cash, physical dollars flowing into his office. In just a few hours, Ponzi mania was officially in full swing.

[Charles Ponzi]

Imagine a city where everyone is rich, not just the bankers, the lawyers and the politicians. Everyone. Every district, every block corner as nice as the last. Boston was on the verge of becoming that city. All thanks to me. Excuse me, excuse me. Coming through.

[Maya Lau]

It was a party, but it was running on borrowed time. And no one, least of all Ponzi, knew how much or how little was left.

[Charles Ponzi]

Hey, guys. I see you all upstairs. Huh?

[Maya Lau]

That headline in the Post doubles money within three months was, in hindsight, a clear turning point for Ponzi. His enormous intake was achieved on the back of almost nothing more than his keen sense of salesmanship, his bold confidence, his unfaltering smile, his charm and quick wit. But those things could only get him so far. Ponzi, riding high off his big success, couldn't see that yet. Which is why, the following day, Sunday, July 25, 1920, he decided to host the press at his estate to make the most of his momentum and ensure his name stayed in the papers. There was even a film crew there to capture newsreel footage, a Rarity at the time, underscoring what a big deal Ponzi was becoming.

[Charles Ponzi]

Where are the photos happening?

[William McMasters]

The others are already set up in the parlor room. It's crowded, but you should have space.

[Charles Ponzi]

Ah, here he is.

[William McMasters]

Press is almost ready.

[Charles Ponzi]

Are you? Yes. Though I don't suppose you've seen my.

[Maya Lau]

Hans. Mother. Imelda had arrived in Boston just in time to see her son's fame and fortune reach its peak. No doubt a source of immense pride for her, even if the language barrier meant she couldn't read the headlines herself.

[William McMasters]

What did she say?

[Charles Ponzi]

Just pretending she doesn't love the attention. Where you need us to be.

[William McMasters]

Parlor room. Oh, and one thing before we get there. The Boston Post is here again.

[Charles Ponzi]

Good. Then I could ask them, what was the deal with the front page this morning? Government pushing investigations.

[William McMasters]

I told you, in the absence of.

[Charles Ponzi]

Details, the same information as yesterday, only now it's migrated to the headline. Why?

[William McMasters]

To be fair, they did mention the crowds outside your office, too.

[Charles Ponzi]

That should have been page one. Just a big picture to crowd.

[William McMasters]

It's the same reporter, and he's still asking a lot of questions.

[Charles Ponzi]

Just tell him something to shut him up.

[William McMasters]

An answer tends to do the trick.

[Charles Ponzi]

Something else. You work with politicians all the time. This should be second nature.

[Rose Ponzi]

Charlie.

[Charles Ponzi]

Aha. There she is. Looking beautiful. As expected.

[Rose Ponzi]

Already I am. But you have an urgent phone call waiting for you in the study.

[William McMasters]

Charles, we really need to get going. We have two more setups after this, and we're already running late.

[Rose Ponzi]

And you have me at your disposal until noon. We can take photos or tap dance for the Pope, but after that, I'm joining my family for lunch.

[William McMasters]

Then we should hurry. Public loves family portraits. We don't want to miss our window with the missus.

[Charles Ponzi]

You both go ahead. I'll be out in a moment.

[Maya Lau]

Though the main focus of the day was the press, Ponzi's attention was being pulled in many directions. He was learning in real time that fortune and fame comes with adoration and complications. He later referred to this as the busiest day of his life. Which is why we're going to zoom in and give you a sense of what things were like for him at this point. Trying to juggle all the balls that were being thrown his way.

[Charles Ponzi]

Yeah, hello, Ponzi. It's Henry Schmolinski. We don't have time right now. Unless it's actually urgent. Well, would you consider a court order to freeze a million dollars in your account? Urgent? What are you talking about? Until some legal dispute is settled, Mr. Joseph Daniels, it says here. Jesus, they're just handing out court orders to anyone for anything these days. It's just. Don't worry about it, Hank. It's just a gambit to force a settlement. Yeah, well, be that as it may, I can't just ignore a court order. You can't seriously be entertaining this demand. I need access to my money.

[William McMasters]

Uh, Charles, the press.

[Charles Ponzi]

What would you have me do, then? Tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine.

[William McMasters]

Well, that will certainly get headlines.

[Charles Ponzi]

Not you, William. Hank. Just do nothing. Sit on your hands until you hear from me. All right, I'll call you back when I have a plan.

[William McMasters]

Everything all right, Charles?

[Charles Ponzi]

Dandy. Let's go.

[Maya Lau]

The Daniels lawsuit was basically an attempted cash grab with no real legal basis. But until it was formally dismissed, this court order had the potential to create some real headaches for Ponzi. Headaches that he had to keep smiling through. It's something he was especially good at. But would that be enough if things took a turn for the worse?

[William McMasters]

Uh, just a couple more minutes, and we'll move to our next location in the study.

[Charles Ponzi]

Ponzi, you care to tell us how you acquired so many coupons? I would, but it would bore half of the room to sleep.

[William McMasters]

Uh, Mr. Ponce's lifestyle is the focus of this event. Please limit any questions to that topic.

[Maya Lau]

Rose, however, wasn't particularly good at hiding her true feelings. And she wasn't exactly on the same page as Ponzi.

[Charles Ponzi]

Rose. Rose, Mrs. Ponzi, over here. Tell us how you like your new life in the suburbs.

[Rose Ponzi]

Oh, it's fine, I suppose. But all this wealth is a burden. We used to have such a nice home life back in the North End.

[Charles Ponzi]

And, of course, it takes time for a home life to adjust. Adjust to a new home. Maybe we could consider this little gathering our housewarming party.

[William McMasters]

All right, that's all for the parlor room. If you get your equipment and follow me, we'll set up in the study for the next round of photos. Oh, by the way, some man from New York showed up and nearly barged into the shot.

[Charles Ponzi]

From New York.

[William McMasters]

I put him in the library for now.

[Charles Ponzi]

Oh, stranzate. That's today. It won't take long.

[William McMasters]

Can it wait until we're done here?

[Rose Ponzi]

Do you need me for the rest of the photos? I really don't like hearing my name screamed out like that.

[Charles Ponzi]

But it's such a beautiful name. Suitably so. Did I already say that you look beautiful? Because you do. Although a rose by any other Name? That's it.

[Rose Ponzi]

A little Shakespeare isn't going to change my mind.

[Charles Ponzi]

Never mind. I'll be right back.

[William McMasters]

Charles. Charles.

[Charles Ponzi]

Hank, I have it. You can't freeze a million dollars if you don't have a million dollars. But you do have a million dollars. What if I didn't? Not in my account. No. You haven't even heard the idea yet. I want you to set up an account under a different name. Yes, yes, yes. That much was clear. Just discreetly move it over into Ponzi. That's completely unethical. Not to mention almost certainly illegal. Are you trying to get us shut down? We will shut down if you don't do this, Hank. If my company is unable to continue conducting business, then it will take the bank down with it. You're my president. We're in this together, remember? So there's a gun to my head, that's what you're saying? You could blame the trigger happy courts for that. Look, how many accounts do you set up in a day? 50? 80? I'm just asking you to set up one more. What have you gotten us into? At most.

[William McMasters]

Charles, we need to.

[Charles Ponzi]

Just a moment. Right. Hank, we agreed. Yes. You'll get this done. I'll deny any knowledge of this. If it comes to it, I will deny all of it. Great news, Hank. Busy, busy day here. I need to run. Just get me that new account details by morning, okay? Ta ta. Charles.

[William McMasters]

What was that? You sure everything is all right?

[Charles Ponzi]

Not, I'm fine. Just bring the press in and get ready. I'll be back soon.

[William McMasters]

Oh, and your mother?

[Charles Ponzi]

Yes, I could hear. I'll deal with her. Coming. Watch it.

[William McMasters]

Oh, there you are.

[Charles Ponzi]

Kul. Damn. I need to get my face repowdered.

[William McMasters]

Now it's all over my jacket.

[Charles Ponzi]

Why are you even here today?

[William McMasters]

Because I need to talk to you urgently.

[Charles Ponzi]

Urgent like you woke up and decided you want something? Or urgent like you just pull the grenade pin?

[William McMasters]

The second one.

[Charles Ponzi]

Fine. Go wait in the library. No, wait. The man from New York is in there. Go to the kitchen. Wait there. Don't talk to anyone on your way. And this better be good.

[Rose Ponzi]

Is that your employee from the other day?

[Charles Ponzi]

Oh, Rose Casulo.

[Rose Ponzi]

Right. How many other people have you hidden away in here?

[Charles Ponzi]

Just a few lawyers. Where's Mama?

[Rose Ponzi]

She just went back to her room. Apparently she needs to change her hat for these next photos. And my family is in the dining room waiting for us. It's almost noon.

[Charles Ponzi]

Okay, have the butler put out a spread. And then go and fetch mama and bring her to the study. I'll be right there. And we'll get these pictures, and then you'll be relieved of your duty.

[Rose Ponzi]

Wonderful.

[William McMasters]

Charles.

[Maya Lau]

Library among the visitors to the estate that day was a representative of a New York business syndicate who, having read about Ponzi's business, decided he wanted in. Of course, Ponzi was in no position to sell his fraudulent business outright, but wanted to maintain any pretense of legitimacy and also see if there might be another way to inject his company with cash.

[New York Buyer]

$10 million?

[Charles Ponzi]

Really? For my company and all its trade secrets.

[New York Buyer]

It's a good offer.

[Charles Ponzi]

For a first offer, I suppose.

[New York Buyer]

It's the most I'm authorized to come on.

[Charles Ponzi]

If that were true, we could have handled this via telegram. You've driven all this way to negotiate. And listen, I'm glad you did. So you could see all those people, all the cameras, all the fancy equipment. It's all for me because I brought in receipts of $1 million yesterday. So your offer of 10 million as well. I don't want to say insulting, but.

[New York Buyer]

Geez, that $1 million is going to walk out your door in 45 days time. Plus another half a million in interest. What I'm interested in is your profit. I want to pay you a fair price, Mr. Ponzi, if you believe your company is worth more, perhaps I can send someone out to audit your books first.

[Charles Ponzi]

What, run off without paying a cent? Is that the plan? Defrock me and then leave me sitting at the altar?

[New York Buyer]

Now look who's being insulting.

[Charles Ponzi]

You know, why don't I leave you here to think about it?

[New York Buyer]

Mr. Ponzi, I have a long drive ahead of me.

[Charles Ponzi]

No, frankly, I don't have time for this. Take a look at this morning's paper. You'll see an excellent description of the crowds outside my office yesterday, which might inspire some loftier numbers to enter your imagination. Wait. I'll be back soon.

[William McMasters]

Charles, we're almost ready for the setup in the study. Your face needs to be repowdered, though.

[Charles Ponzi]

Yes, I know. Oh, right, that. That reminds me. I just need to.

[William McMasters]

No, no, don't go.

[Charles Ponzi]

Take care of something very quick, Charles. Okay. Kasulo, this better be good, because I'm in no mood for your antics.

[William McMasters]

I need $15,000.

[Charles Ponzi]

What did I just say? How is this pressing? And I already bought you a house. Do you have any desire to earn an honest living?

[William McMasters]

Well, it's not for me. It's for. Well, I've arranged a little surprise for you.

[Charles Ponzi]

Congratulations. I'm surprised. Excuse me.

[William McMasters]

I have these Connections in New York. And they have a connection to someone who's going to take care of a problem for you. Let's just say the Attorney General will be going for a ride.

[Charles Ponzi]

What? What? What the hell did you just say? Not now. Please, Kula, tell me that you're not saying what I think you're saying.

[William McMasters]

It's a ride that never comes back. As in, he's going to.

[Charles Ponzi]

You know. What the. Jesus. Not out here. Get in the pantry.

[Rose Ponzi]

Go.

[Charles Ponzi]

Get. Is this a joke?

[William McMasters]

Joke? I put a lot of effort into this for you.

[Charles Ponzi]

You mean it's already done?

[William McMasters]

Well, it's in motion, at least. I read in the paper about the.

[Charles Ponzi]

Investigation, and I thought, oh, for Christ's sake, this is not how I operate. I could manage the Attorney General and the banking commissioner and the District Attorney. Call it off.

[William McMasters]

Oh, I might not be able to. Like I said, it's in motion. And the gunman is.

[Charles Ponzi]

Say gunman. You sound ridiculous.

[William McMasters]

Okay, the person is already in Boston.

[Charles Ponzi]

Ready to do it.

[William McMasters]

He'll need to be paid either way.

[Charles Ponzi]

I need to pay him to not do the job, which he may still do anyway, since you don't know how to contact him, yes. Unbelievable. And what if I refuse to pay? Will he just kill the Attorney General for free to stick it to me? Maybe. Or me. Well, that I could live with. Or you. Less enticing.

[William McMasters]

I don't know what he'll do. But you don't want to cross these people.

[Charles Ponzi]

I don't want anything to do with these people. You brought them into my path. You deal with it. I mean it. If anything happens, I'll make sure it gets pinned on you. I don't care what it means for me.

[William McMasters]

Yeah, yeah, I get it.

[Charles Ponzi]

I was just trying to help. Well, don't. Keep your contributions as close to zero as possible. It's hardly been a problem for you so far. And don't show your face again until this is taken care of. And leave through the back door. I don't want you running into anyone from the press.

[Rose Ponzi]

Charlie.

[William McMasters]

Charles. Finally.

[Charles Ponzi]

Hello. The both of you. Are we ready?

[Maya Lau]

No.

[Charles Ponzi]

Yes. No.

[Rose Ponzi]

We need to talk.

[Charles Ponzi]

Now?

[Rose Ponzi]

Yes, now. Over here.

[Charles Ponzi]

Give me a moment. William. Rose, darling. I'm sorry. I'll tell him to speed things up.

[Rose Ponzi]

Don't put this on him. He isn't my husband. Although I have seen more of him today than I've seen of you.

[Charles Ponzi]

Well, it's a busy day.

[Rose Ponzi]

As though this is all just something that is happening to you without any of your own doing. We're being Rude to my family. And for what? Some more pictures in the paper? You got your big headline yesterday.

[Charles Ponzi]

Well, you have to strike when the iron's hot. And the press, they're hungry for more.

[Rose Ponzi]

Fine. I did agree to having press in the house, but what about all this other work you're trying to sneak by under my nose? This man from New York in the library.

[Charles Ponzi]

Shit, I still need to deal with him.

[Rose Ponzi]

And your employee from Montreal.

[Charles Ponzi]

That one was very much not my doing.

[Rose Ponzi]

You said we're better than the Rockefellers. But I read that John Dee had lunch with his family every day.

[Charles Ponzi]

Not at the start. He did. Probably. And where's all this coming from? Didn't we already discuss this?

[Rose Ponzi]

You told me things would be hectic for a while, but this is different. This is you making things more hectic. I have been entertaining your mother for three weeks, and you have hardly seen her.

[Charles Ponzi]

She'd much rather see me in the paper than in person.

[Rose Ponzi]

Well, this family is still half GeneCo. And they are good people who do want to see.

[Charles Ponzi]

See you.

[Rose Ponzi]

It's noon, so I am going to have lunch, and I'd like for you to join us if you could possibly squeeze us in to your schedule.

[Charles Ponzi]

That's fair enough. Ms. Ponzi. Go ahead. I'll be there soon.

[New York Buyer]

Where is Mr. Ponzi?

[Charles Ponzi]

Oh, Stranzate.

[New York Buyer]

Mr. Ponzi. I don't appreciate this sort of treatment. Like I said, I have a long drive ahead of me.

[Charles Ponzi]

I'm coming right now. Go back inside, Charles. I need to deal with this quickly. Actually, come with me.

[William McMasters]

What's the meeting, William?

[Charles Ponzi]

Listen, all you need to say is yes, when I point to you. Yes. Yes. Come on. Why? Because you look important. Can I assume from your eagerness we have made some progress? Who is this? Just someone to help move.

[New York Buyer]

I already told you the offer. It's $10 million.

[Charles Ponzi]

Well, typically, we go back and forth a bit more and feel each other out, but in the interest of speed, I'll just be frank. 10 million is simply not enough for me to hand over the keys to my empire. So if that really is your ceiling, perhaps we could find something else I could offer for that amount. Something like exclusive rights to open and operate my offices in New York? I think I can make that work.

[New York Buyer]

That's Your counter offer? 10 million for the pleasure of acting as your collections agency?

[Charles Ponzi]

Yeah, you got that right. And I pounce on it fast. Next week, it might be double.

[New York Buyer]

Look, your company may well be worth that, and if so, we can certainly afford it. But again, we would need to see your books first.

[Charles Ponzi]

I thought you might say that. Which is why I brought my colleague here. To confirm the value of the company. That's reasonable, don't you think, William? Huh?

[William McMasters]

Me?

[New York Buyer]

Is this your accountant?

[Charles Ponzi]

No, but he agrees with me on that matter, right?

[William McMasters]

Oh, yes.

[New York Buyer]

Why do I care if he's not an accountant?

[Charles Ponzi]

This man is personal friends with Governor Coolidge. So.

[New York Buyer]

I'll take it back to my partners and see what they think. Now, I have a long track.

[Charles Ponzi]

Yeah, you mentioned eyes on the road, hands on the wheel.

[William McMasters]

What was all that about?

[Charles Ponzi]

Ah, just making sure these New Yorkers know exactly where they could stick their lousy offers.

[William McMasters]

But 10 million? What is that?

[Charles Ponzi]

It's just an ulcer. And since you play a lousy accountant, I don't expect you to be any better as a physician.

[William McMasters]

You don't need to be an accountant to know that 10 million is an awful lot of money.

[Charles Ponzi]

You think I should sell for 10 million?

[William McMasters]

I still don't know how much profit you actually make. Which is a fairly key component to the calculation.

[Maya Lau]

Charles McMasters recounted this moment in his memoir, a moment when Ponzi's overpowering confidence finally faltered. He wrote, I think it was. It was just about then that I began to have real doubts about Ponzi. And this pause in the face of seemingly basic and obvious questions apparently lasted an excruciating 30 seconds.

[William McMasters]

Are you okay?

[Charles Ponzi]

Huh? Yes, of course. I was just thinking about your profits. Profits are immaterial to my question, William, since we're not for sale. This is about changing how things are done in this country. I need you to understand that.

[William McMasters]

Right. Of course.

[Charles Ponzi]

As for the press, I'll be going stag for this round. Hopefully they're not too disappointed. Now, where can I get my face re powdered?

[Maya Lau]

That interaction was a very consequential one, all because of that long pause. A rare slip of the mask for Ponzi. And he had shown the nervous face behind it to the exact wrong person. As it happened, McMasters was good friends with one of the lawyers at Ponzi's estate that day. And as they drove back to Boston together, McMasters took the opportunity to have a more frank conversation with his friend.

[William McMasters]

Long day for you as well. Government investigations causing your problems?

[Reporter]

Well, Ponzi's certainly dragging things out more.

[Charles Ponzi]

Than I'd like, but until someone comes forward and claims he's stolen their money, the investigators seem satisfied.

[William McMasters]

And what about you? You're his lawyer.

[Charles Ponzi]

Are you satisfied? I doubt I know anything more than you. All Right.

[William McMasters]

So he won't tell his lawyer. He won't tell the government. None of his employees seem to know anything. And even $10 million isn't enough to unpurse those lips. And why does he even need to take the public's money anyway? He has plenty of his own to make a handsome enough profit. And speaking of, why is so much of it just sitting in deposit at the bank when he supposedly has a method of guaranteed returns? It makes no sense.

[Charles Ponzi]

Having doubts.

[William McMasters]

What? You're not.

[Charles Ponzi]

Just do me a favor and keep him to yourself. Working for Ponzi is already prematurely aging me a decade, and I'd hate for you to have my heart attack on your conscience.

[Maya Lau]

It had only been two days since McMasters had started working for Ponzi, as he notes in the his memoir, and already doubts had consumed him. As he climbed into bed that night, they were still racing through his mind. What time is it? Did you just get home?

[William McMasters]

Yeah. I've been downstairs thinking.

[Rose Ponzi]

Is everything all right?

[Charles Ponzi]

Maybe.

[William McMasters]

Maybe I'm just being nervous or paranoid. Maybe I'm even doing the very thing he keeps accusing others of. Of doubting him because of his background.

[Rose Ponzi]

Your new client.

[Maya Lau]

You mean the.

[Rose Ponzi]

The Ponzi fellow?

[William McMasters]

I just. I. I don't know how this little man goes from being broke a year ago to this. So is it bad that I'm working for him? Should I quit?

[Maya Lau]

I think you should get some sleep.

[Charles Ponzi]

Yeah, probably.

[Rose Ponzi]

Maybe it's not such a bad thing.

[Maya Lau]

To have someone paranoid working for him.

[Charles Ponzi]

Wait.

[William McMasters]

That's right. Did you hear me? I said you're right.

[Maya Lau]

That's nice, dear.

[William McMasters]

In fact, this is perfect. It's a win win. Either he's above board and I have myself a client unlike almost any other in history, or he isn't, in which case, I'm in a unique position to help bring him down. And I know just what to do. First thing tomorrow.

[Maya Lau]

Next time on Easy Money.

[William McMasters]

The Boston Post questions the motives behind Ponzi's scheme.

[Charles Ponzi]

They built me up just to tear me down.

[William McMasters]

Having a audit forced on you appears guilty.

[Charles Ponzi]

Volunteering for an audit appears innocent.

[William McMasters]

It really shouldn't be this hard to confirm that one of the largest businesses in the state is conducting some actual, you know, business.

[Rose Ponzi]

Ponzi schemes are an insidious crime to.

[Faith Dickerson]

Try to detect an advance.

[William McMasters]

People are starting to wonder if maybe you don't have an answer.

[Charles Ponzi]

I need you to find someone at the post office. Someone who could intercept. Intercept telegrams.

[Faith Dickerson]

The challenge for reporters is that it requires you to prove a negative.

[William McMasters]

But have you considered that it's entirely possible to be right and also utterly, utterly wrong?

[Maya Lau]

Easy money. The Charles Ponzi Story is an Apple Original podcast produced by Atwill Media, reported and hosted by me, Maya Lau. Our producers are Matt Hickey and Brigand Snow. Production support from Ann, Margaret Warner, Lee Mingistu and Taylor Hosking. The show is written by Matt Hickey and Kevin Hines with additional writing from Maya Lau and Brigand Snow. Our audio editor is Andrew Holzberger with support from Greg Devins II and Zach Cropone. Field recordings by George Hicks. Original music is by John Nachez. Sound design and mix engineering by Sound and Fission. Scripted scenes directed by Katie Finneran. Casting for scripted scenes by Darrell Eisenberg. CSA fact checking by Sona Avakian. Ashley Taylor is our senior super supervising Producer. Executive producers are Will Malnati and Sebastian Maniscalco. Our co executive producer is Kevin Hines. The part of Charles Ponzi is played by Sebastian Maniscalco, Rose Ponzi by Candace shedd Thompson, William McMasters by Darren Goldstein, Lucasulo by John Littlefield, Henry Schmielinsky by Richard Fisk, Imelda Ponzi by Danielle Tarmi, reporter by Joe Hubbard and the New York Buyer by Jeff Taylor. Additional parts played by Ashley Taylor, Brennan Lowery, Gianni Demaia, Martin Cohen and Tyler Haines. Legal services provided by Shawn Gordon with Weintraub Tobin and Carolyn Levin at mksr. Follow and listen on Apple Podcast.

[Charles Ponzi]

Sam.