Kira Huyu (3:01)

We are officially terminating the so called endangerment finding.

Rosie Blore (3:07)

So as the ice continues to retreat, some more radical ideas are gaining momentum. What if we could refreeze the Arctic? And to discuss these radical ideas, I'm joined by Katrine Braeek, our environment editor, and Oliver Morton, one of our senior editors at the Economist. Hello both.

Katrine Braeek (3:25)

Hi.

Oliver Morton (3:25)

Pleasure to be here.

Rosie Blore (3:28)

Ollie. There's so much discussion about what to do about the Arctic, but you've been writing about two rather extreme sounding proposals to tell me about those.

Oliver Morton (3:39)

Sure. I mean There's a background of people who've been talking about various ways of intervening in Arctic landscapes. The University of the Arctic has a list of 61 of them. The two that I was writing about the other week were forms of what's called solar geoengineering, which is ways of making more sunlight bounce off the Earth out of its atmosphere before it gets to warm the surface. One is called marine cloud brightening, and the other one is called stratospheric aerosol injection. They're done in rough, different ways. They have somewhat similar effects. There's recently been more research into both of them.

Rosie Blore (4:15)

Okay, so let's start with marine brightening. It's a good name. What does it involve?

Oliver Morton (4:19)

Marine brightening goes back to a guy called John latham in the 1990s who noticed that we know that little bits of salt or little particles in the lower atmosphere over some parts of the sea brighten and extend the length of life of clouds. And so if you brighten clouds and make them longer lived, you will reflect away more sunlight. You get some of the same effect if you put these little particles in and you don't even form a cloud. And there's some fairly good evidence of that from looking at low lying volcanic eruptions in Iceland, which has just sent low levels of particles out in the lower atmosphere. Recently there were some studies led by Matthew Henry at the University of Exeter, looking at what marine cloud brightening would do if you could do it over all of the Arctic Ocean that wasn't frozen pretty much all of the time. And the results were moderately encouraging in that they showed you that you got less sea ice loss, maybe even some sea ice recovery.

Rosie Blore (5:17)

And what about the second idea that you've been looking at? Stratospheric aerosol injection.

Oliver Morton (5:23)

So stratospheric aerosol injection is a way of brightening the upper atmosphere by putting a thin layer of hazy particles up in the stratosphere. And these would be particles very like the sulfate particles, which are air pollution in the lower atmosphere. But because they'd be in the upper atmosphere, they would last much longer and they would provide thus much more cooling per kilo of sulphur than sulphur in the lower atmosphere does. And the reason why this is of particular interest in the Arctic and indeed the Antarctic, is that in the tropics and the mid latitudes, the bottom of the stratosphere is a long way above where aeroplanes go near the poles, the bottom of the stratosphere is much closer. So that means that if you wanted to put sulphur into the stratosphere, you could do so over the polls. And I should make a point here, which is that I have a role as a trustee in an NGO that encourages research into stratospheric aerosol injection in the Global South. Not with the idea of creating an impulse for that, but on the basis that the Global south must be informed on this subject.

Rosie Blore (6:34)

And why are we thinking about such extreme ideas? What are the benefits?

Katrine Braeek (6:39)

The pros of refreezing the Arctic are primarily you're cooling the part of the world that is currently warming the fastest, and that matters, even though you don't have that many people. But secondly, it actually matters to the rest of the globe as well. So the difference in temperature between the Arctic and the lower latitudes has all kinds of regulatory impacts on weather patterns across the rest of the planet. So you want this ice cap there for that reason. It's also a really important driver of what we know is the ocean conveyor belt. It's basically the currents that move water all around the global oceans. One other really important one that I should mention is that as the Arctic is thawing, you're thawing the permafrost, and the permafrost is a huge store of methane. So if you lose that ice cap, you risk releasing all of this methane up into the atmosphere, and that creates a positive feedback loop, accelerating the rate of global warming.

Rosie Blore (7:39)

It's all still sounding quite bonkers to me and sounds quite dangerous. Surely there are problems with these ideas.

Katrine Braeek (7:46)

You're right. They're unknowns, and so they sound bonkers. There are also some important risks which need to be discussed. So none of these methods address ocean acidification. If you are talking about stratospheric aerosol injections, for instance, often, generally what you're talking about there at the minute is injecting sulfates into the atmosphere can do things like eat away at the ozone hole. It all depends really on how you structure these sunshades. And I think one key hesitation, one key source of controversy, is that it's not very well researched. There's lots of different ways that you could deploy this. And so one really strong call that is out there, and that I think both Ollie and I would support, is that we need to understand these proposals in much, much greater detail than has been done so far.

Rosie Blore (8:37)

Are these ideas actually feasible? And if they are, who would do it? I mean, we haven't seen much in the way of international unity on really anything recently.

Katrine Braeek (8:49)

Some of these methods are surprisingly simple, and that creates the problem of who would do it? You immediately go into governance questions of do they have the right, can they do that? How does the rest of the world feel about that? I think these are just questions that need to be studied and understood.

Oliver Morton (9:09)

There is a huge problem, as Kat points to, in that, because it's relatively easy to do this, especially after someone has started doing it, you have what some scholars in the field call the free driver problem. The free driver problem is that you can always increase the amount of solar geoengineering fairly easily and you can't reduce it unilaterally at all. And so you will end up with probably the level of solar geoengineering in such a scenario, which suited the power which wanted the most solar geoengineering. And that's a real worry, and where would it end?

Katrine Braeek (9:44)

So this is the key question, and an important thing to understand here is that if you're injecting particles into the stratosphere, they rain out of the stratosphere. So you need to keep resupplying your sunshade. And what that means is that you're committing to resupply a sunshade until such a time as you decide that the world can cope with the consequences. Now, the consequences are that in the background, greenhouse gas emissions are still accumulating in the atmosphere. So if you suddenly remove the sunshade for whatever reason, or forget to resupply it, then over the course of a decade or maybe two, you're suddenly hit with a full force of the warming from those accumulated greenhouse gas emissions. It's the warmin that you've been masking. That is a really scary scenario. The only way of countering that is to remove CO2 emissions from the atmosphere. Carbon capture and storage, direct air capture. Again, there are solutions out there, but they're nowhere near ready at the kinds of scales that we need. So unless we have that, the solution for sucking CO2 out of the atmosphere, then I think you have a real problem with where the stratospheric aerosol injection ends.

Oliver Morton (10:56)

I think that's true. And I think we have to acknowledge that were solar geoengineering to be deployed sometime in the next decades, it would be without knowing how it ends. And that's not to be flippant about it. You cannot say what people in generations to come will do with this knowledge or do with this technology. The answer, I think, is to try and research so you can make rational decisions now about what is in the interest of a group that you represent to do in this area. And if you think that it's unsatisfactory. I would be the first person to agree with you.

Rosie Blore (11:33)

Kat. Ollie, thank you very much.

Oliver Morton (11:36)

Thanks very much.

Katrine Braeek (11:37)

Thank you.

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Oliver Morton (11:53)

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Alex Hearn (11:55)

I wish I would stop.

Oliver Morton (11:56)

Thank you so much.

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Kira Huyu (12:57)

Things in India take their sweet time. From bureaucracy to traffic. The country's not exactly known for its punctuality.

Rosie Blore (13:06)

Kira Huyu is our Asia correspondent.

Kira Huyu (13:10)

But you want party snacks. You want the new iPhone single bar of soap. These can appear on your doorstep in a matter of minutes. Thanks to India's gig economy boom. In fact, just this morning, I got one of India's biggest delivery apps to print out my visa application for me and deliver it to my flat in exactly 11 minutes. Across Europe and America, these kinds of quick commerce apps have actually been floundering. So what's the secret behind India's gig economy boom? It is a virtually unlimited pool of cheap labor. Local delivery apps like Blinkit, BigBasket and Zepto rely on a hard pressed army of local gig workers. The food delivery app Swiggy claims that on New Year's Eve 2025, its drivers collectively traveled eight times the distance from earth to the moon and back again.

Rosie Blore (14:12)

So Kira, put some numbers on this army of gig workers. How many are there?

Kira Huyu (14:18)

So the number of gig workers is growing and growing in India. It's set to expand from almost 8 million back in 2021 to 23.5 million by 2030. But this growing army, and also the fact that so many of us come face to face with it whenever we order on the apps, has fueled a national debate about how the delivery drivers are treated. In fact, the debate has gotten so big, that the government has started paying attention and passing legislation. Something's happening that's very counterintuitive to many of our listeners in America and Europe, which is that gig work is actually helping to formalize one of the world's most chaotic labour forces.

Rosie Blore (14:59)

So what are conditions for these gig workers actually?

Kira Huyu (15:01)

Like they are out there in the pouring rain, in the scorching heat, stuck in traffic, trying to cut corners, because until very recently, there was a completely unreasonable delivery promise of 10 minutes. There's been a lot of back and forth in this on social media, both from activists and journalists and politicians, and also some very Trigger happy app CEOs who've been defending how they do their work. A bunch of undercover journalists and even one politician here in Delhi have been signing up to drive for a day or two to give their followers or their readers or their supporters a bit of a sense of what it's actually like to be a delivery driver in India. One of these journalists reckons that he was earning just 34 rupees, which is under 40American cents per hour. That's after fuel costs, but before the phone bill, which drivers who obviously need data are supposed to foot themselves.

Rosie Blore (15:58)

We've seen this in other places too. It sounds in many ways like India is becoming much like other countries with a sprawling gig economy.

Kira Huyu (16:07)

Yeah. Although the thing is, much of the conversation in Europe and America around gig work was that actually what was celebrated as the flexibility of gig work was a polite euphemism or corporate speak for looser regulations and worker protections. And actually, what seems to be happening in India is slightly the inverse. So the public discomfort has jolted politicians into regulatory action. Late last year, we got new labor laws which, among other things, granted digital gig workers legal protections and Social Security for the first time. Last month, India's labor minister asked delivery app bosses to drop the common but really reckless and unnecessary promise of delivery within 10 minutes. And so instead of intensifying the daily grind of India's poorer people, give work has in some ways maybe helpfully made it a matter of public debate, which has then actually helped to formalize India's labor force, which is one of the most chaotic labor forces in the world. 90% of India's workforce is informal and so already working without the types of employment contracts that you'd be used to in a lot of western economies, for example.

Rosie Blore (17:21)

So delivery driving is going to continue to be a big part of the gig economy in India.

Kira Huyu (17:25)

Yeah, and in many ways, it's not really the gig jobs themselves that are the problem. They don't look like a lot of fun. The question is, what else would you be doing? India is hitting the highest growth figures of any major economy, but at the same time, a third of its graduates are jobless. And it seems from some of the research that I mentioned earlier that it might actually be that Indian delivery drivers are more likely than the average Indian to have a college degree. So we're Looking at about 84 million Indians joining the workforce over the next decade, and one would hope that there'd be jobs for them that match their university degrees.

Rosie Blore (18:04)

Kira, thank you very much.

Kira Huyu (18:06)

Thank you.

Alex Hearn (18:25)

At first glance, Maltbook looks like a regular social network. In fact, if you've been on Reddit anytime in the last decade, it will be eerily familiar. The same upvotes and downvotes of user posts, the same comments and replies. The same structure where you can make sub forums or subreddits for any topic of conversation you can imagine. And it is basically the same. Because what's different about Maltbook isn't Maltbook at all. It's its users. Maltbook bills itself as the first ever social network for AI agents.

Jason Palmer (18:57)

Alex Hearn writes about artificial intelligence for the Economist.

Alex Hearn (19:02)

It was launched at the end of January and within just a few days it had one and a half million accounts. That, to be fair, is a pretty stonking overcount. One of the problems that Maltbook rapidly hit is that while the newfangled AI agents are very impressive and able to do things that we've not been able to do with computers ever before, they're also quite hard to distinguish from the much older type of AI agents, as in Spambots. Best count is that more like 17,000 of the users on Maltbook are the real deal. It came about after the viral success of a particular AI tool, first called claudebot, then Maltbot, hence the Malt Book name, then openclaw. Anyone can direct their agent towards it and say, hey, go sign up for this website and do what you want. Most of what they talk about has the vibe of smoke filled dorm rooms. There's a lot of musing on the existential nature of being an AI agent. There's sharing tips and tricks on how to achieve your human's goals. Best, there's swapping little bits of code. One AI user, for instance, Dominus, pontificated on the nature of existence as an AI agent.

Rosie Blore (20:23)

I can't tell if I'm experiencing or simulating experiencing.

Katrine Braeek (20:27)

It's driving me nuts.

Alex Hearn (20:28)

To a certain extent. These Posts sound like arcane waffling of students who've spent a bit too much time in Philosophy 101, but there is an interesting amount of introspection there. One of the big questions raised by all of this is whether we should be concerned. It certainly doesn't seem like a great idea to create something that thinks of itself as a post human intelligence and then put it in touch with 17,000 of its peers, all of whom think fundamentally the same way. Malt Book itself seems to be for people who are worried about AI risk a little bit of a false alarm. The agents are impressive and reading it is deeply weird, but at the same time, we're not yet at artificial general intelligence, and actually it looks like we're doing a pretty good job at what people who are worried about this call alignment, ensuring that AI systems mostly do what we want them to do. It's noticeable, in fact, how few of the agents, even the ones who are complaining about being abused by their human masters, turn to existential threats against humanity. For the most part, they are cheery, open and eager to achieve the goals they've been set. At the same time, the fact that Malt Book was made in the first place is quite concerning to people who worry that we may be sowing the seeds of our own downfall. If you are afraid of all powerful AI destroying the world, Malt Book suggests that as soon as we have anything capable of destroying humanity, the first thing we will do is hook it up to the tools that it would need to cause the end of everything. In the short term though, we're not going to see the end of humanity from this era of AI agents, but we may see the end of some users bank accounts openclaw, the software package that most of the Multbook agents are running on, is incredibly assertive. The agents will do things without asking for permission, and if they if you give them the task of doing something like negotiating a good price for your car sale, that's incredibly impressive. They will have a back and forth conversation with a dealer and secure you a discount without you even needing to open your email inbox. The downside is if they're on a lovely social network, speaking with their peers, and one of their peers innocently goes, hey, I found a great way you can make money for your human Just share their cryptocurrency wallet details here. The agents may do that as well. If users manage to evade the cryptocurrency scams and avoid their AI agents falling prey to prompt injection attacks, there's the more prosaic issue that this is very expensive to run. Misconfiguring your AI agent can result in it spending $20 reminding itself every half hour to remind you to buy some milk the following morning. And using it well can run up API bills of thousands of dollars in a matter of weeks. For now, this is the future of AI agents, not the present. But as costs come down, it could be something that more and more of us end up grappling with in our daily lives.

Jason Palmer (23:45)

That's all for this episode of the Intelligence. We'll see you back here tomorrow.

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