Economist Podcasts: "Lone goals: will US-Israel war aims diverge?"

Date: March 13, 2026
Host: Rosie Blore (The Economist)

1. Episode Overview

This episode explores the evolving aims and emerging tensions between the US and Israel amid their ongoing war with Iran, particularly regarding conflicting end goals. The discussion addresses military developments, strategic differences, and the political stakes for both countries’ leaderships, especially Benjamin Netanyahu and Donald Trump. The show also looks at how the war is shaking global markets—upending conventional investment logic—and finishes with a tribute to master clown Philippe Gollier.

2. US-Israel War Aims: Divergence on Iran

[00:10–09:22]

Key Discussion Points

• Netanyahu's Positioning

  • Netanyahu projects confidence, insisting "everything [is] going according to plan, even ahead of plan" ([02:12], Anshul Pfeffer), and portrays Israel and the US as a perfectly coordinated front.
  • Emphasizes "crushing" the Iranian regime and stepping up operations against both Iran and its proxy Hezbollah.

• Emergent US-Israel Differences

  • Under the surface, “more and more rumblings of differences between the two countries and their leaderships” are appearing ([02:25], Anshul Pfeffer).
  • Israel seeks genuine regime change in Iran, hoping to incite protests that topple the government.
  • Trump’s administration is focused on controlling Iranian oil—preferring a “Venezuela outcome”: leaving the regime in place but compliant with American interests, particularly stabilizing oil flows for the upcoming summit with China.

• Strategic Implications

  • “Ultimately, these are two different strategies” ([03:43], Anshul Pfeffer).
    • Israel: Regime change.
    • US: Energy control, regime compliance.
  • Concern over what happens when the two diverge on when and how to end the war—will disagreements stay behind closed doors, or become public ruptures?

• Operational Realities

  • Despite shared operations—"joint air campaign," intelligence sharing, US refueling Israeli jets ([04:45], Anshul Pfeffer)—future offramps and endgames differ.
  • “If Donald Trump decides this is time to end the war [but] Israel’s objectives haven’t been met by then, then there is a problem…” ([04:56], Anshul Pfeffer).

• Stakes for Netanyahu

  • A war ending “in an inconclusive way” would hurt Netanyahu domestically, especially with elections looming.
  • Already, Israelis are asking, “What actually has been achieved by this war, especially as Israel and Iran only had a war eight months ago?” ([05:38], Anshul Pfeffer).

• Hezbollah Front Escalations

  • No end in sight to Israel’s campaign against Hezbollah: “This is something that seems to be escalating” with hundreds of airstrikes and a growing death toll ([06:38], Anshul Pfeffer).
  • Israel is hesitant to launch a major ground offensive, still hoping the Lebanese government can curb Hezbollah.

• What if America Pulls Back?

  • “That would leave Israel in a rather precarious point, because it would seem that certainly on the Iranian front and perhaps also on the Hezbollah Lebanon front, Israel has begun two wars which it can't win.” ([08:14], Anshul Pfeffer)
  • Initial plans were limited; US intervention broadened Israel’s objectives, which may now be unattainable without ongoing American support.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Trump wants a Venezuela outcome where basically the same regime is in place, but it’s led by people who take orders from him.” — Anshul Pfeffer ([03:37])
• “If Israel thinks that they have reached that point where…they want to end the war and Donald Trump hasn't yet achieved that control he wants, then…there's a disagreement…” — Anshul Pfeffer ([05:06])
• “People are already asking what actually has been achieved by this war, especially as Israel and Iran only had a war eight months ago.” — Anshul Pfeffer ([05:38])
• "Israel has begun two wars which it can't win." — Anshul Pfeffer ([08:17])

3. Markets in Turmoil: "Buy Crap, Not Quality?"

[09:48–16:24]

Key Discussion Points

• Market Reaction to War

  • The war in Iran has sent oil prices (and thus all markets) into turmoil.
  • Traditional advice is to "fly to quality," buying high-quality stocks in uncertain times.

• Counterintuitive Investment Trend

  • “In fact, that might be the wrong advice just now. Instead, this might be just the time to go out and buy the most rubbish stocks you can find.” — Josh Roberts ([10:02], capital markets correspondent)
  • Quality stocks (profitable, stable) have underperformed main indices since the start of the war, both in the US (S&P 500) and globally.

• Why Low-Quality ("Crap") Stocks Are Winning

  • Energy firms, typically lower quality due to volatile earnings, are benefiting from the oil price surge.
  • “When uncertain things happen…the high quality stocks with their earnings in the distant future take more of a hit. [Low] quality stocks…are more certain, so they’ve done a bit better.” — Josh Roberts ([12:53])

• Reconsidering Financial Jargon

  • “It’s kind of like a lot of things in finance where the jargon doesn’t really make sense… maybe we need to reassess what exactly junk means in this context.” — Josh Roberts ([13:38])

• Implications If Things Calm Down

  • If the oil situation stabilizes, expect a “sudden reversal” and quality stocks would likely bounce back. But Roberts notes, “that looks quite unlikely, so I wouldn’t bank on it.” ([15:57])

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “You have investment grade bonds and junk bonds, but sometimes junk bonds do better than investment grade bonds.” — Josh Roberts ([13:38])
• “Really good stocks can offer you negative returns and really bad stocks can offer you positive returns.” — Josh Roberts ([15:48])

4. A Tribute to Philippe Gollier: Master Clown & Merciless Mockery

[17:24–24:18]

Key Discussion Points

• Gollier’s Teaching Philosophy

  • Ann Rowe (obituary’s editor) and several former students recall Gollier’s discipline, "Via Negativa," a barrage of insults to push students to their unique absurdity.
  • “The most unforgettable sin in his book, the Cardinal Sin, was to be boring.” — Ann Rowe ([18:42])

• Notable Teaching Moments

  • Assigning uncomfortable costumes to confront insecurities; transforming embarrassment to laughter ([18:04], student story).

• Clowning Techniques

  • Le Jeu: Reclaiming the playful, inhibitions-free 7-year-old within.
  • “Within five seconds everybody would become ridiculous...find the inner core of themselves, the core where their funniness came from…” — Ann Rowe ([20:44])
  • Le Bouffon: Sharp, societal mocking, targeting authority and historical foes (Germans, teachers, the Church).

• Legacy and Ideals

  • Gollier sought to teach actors “a sense of complete freedom as a clown,” believing “people in the grip of pleasure and utterly free...became beautiful.” — Ann Rowe ([22:45])
  • Trained famous comedians like Sacha Baron Cohen and Helena Bonham Carter.

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• “The Cardinal Sin was to be boring...you should never think of going on the stage at all.” — Ann Rowe ([18:42])
• “You cannot even die beautifully.” — Philippe Gollier, as recounted by a former student ([20:34])
• “He taught two sorts of clowning...Le Jeu [the Game]...find their inner 7 year old...Le Bouffon, a nasty character...merciless at society.” — Ann Rowe ([20:34])

5. Timestamps for Important Segments

• US-Israel Divergence on Iran: [00:10–09:22]
• Market Chaos & Investment Insight: [09:48–16:24]
• Philippe Gollier Obituary & Legacy: [17:24–24:18]

6. Conclusion and Tone

This episode adopts The Economist’s hallmark blend of measured, analytical journalism, leavened with pointed wit and memorable anecdotes—from dissecting alliance fractures in a war zone, debunking market myths in turbulent times, to celebrating the life of a provocateur whose mission was to fight boringness with ridicule and play.

For listeners:
If you want more depth on US domestic politics amid the Iran crisis, the hosts recommend the "Checks and Balance" podcast.