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- [00:04]
A
The economist. Hello and welcome to the Intelligence from the Economist. I'm your host, Jason Palmer. Every weekday we provide a fresh perspective on the events shaping your world. Every generation reckons the latest tech will be bad for kids. Yet television didn't ruin them, nor video games after that. Social media juries out. But AI is a different story. It offers an unprecedentedly personalized upbringing, but also perhaps a lonely one. And as I'm sure many of you know, it's National Bagel Day in America. Our highly biased correspondent holds forth on their greatness. Even a bad one, he reckons is pretty good. But how they came to be is a lot less clear. First up, though, Today, Venezuela's opposition leader and Nobel Peace Prize winner Maria Corinna Machado will meet with President Donald Trump at the White house. Back in 2024, she had been barred from running in the election. Instead, Edmundo Gonzalez ran in her and with her backing, he won. But Nicolas Maduro, a serial election thief, claimed otherwise. There was a chance that When America nabbed Mr. Maduro a couple of weeks ago, a smooth transition to a more democratic outcome might put Mr. Gonzalez or Ms. Machado in charge. Nope.
- [01:46]
B
I think it'd be very tough for her to be the leader. She doesn't have the support within or the respect within the country. She's a very nice woman, but she.
- [01:53]
C
Doesn'T have the respect.
- [01:56]
A
It's worth asking what the people of Venezuela think about what's happened, about where things are and where they should go.
- [02:02]
B
So we did after shock and fear when that raid happened on January 3rd. I think in Venezuela, feelings have given way to something much closer to happiness.
- [02:13]
A
Kinley Salmon is our Latin America correspondent.
- [02:16]
B
We've done some exclusive polling in the country and that suggests that Venezuelans for the most part were pretty positive about the US Raid. Very few of them say they opposed the capture of Maduro, but they also show an overwhelming desire now for a quick return to democracy.
- [02:34]
A
Tell me more about this polling to be able to get to the pulse of the nation.
- [02:37]
B
At this point, the polling's been done with Premise, which is a research firm based in Virginia. And it offers really kind of a first glimpse at Venezuelans reaction to the snatching of Maduro. They've got in touch through mobile app to 600 respondents and then the results have been weighted by age and sex to sort of best try to reflect the national population. And what it's showing is Maduro was truly deeply hated. This is a man who presided over torture, over extraordinary economic collapse, and stole elections most recently in 2024. The raid, I think gives Venezuelans hope. Many feared they were stuck with Maduro for decades to come. But now four in five of them say they think the political situation is going to be better within a year. About as many think that their personal economic situation will be better by then, too. So there's a real sense of optimism about what might come.
- [03:31]
A
But I mean, let's pick this apart a little deeper. These are opinions about the raid and whether it was good or bad, right or wrong, and a comment about the badness of Maduro, essentially. But what do Venezuelans think about now having America running the country?
- [03:47]
B
They are surprisingly sanguine, I think, at least for the short run, about Trump's plans to run Venezuela, as well as his interest in its oil, which came through pretty jarringly in his press conference after the raid. In our polls, nearly half support some form of US Governance in Venezuela. Views were a little bit more divided on the oil industry. And so who should control that in the future? About a quarter said the US Government should be in charge, a third said the Venezuelan government, and nearly a third said private companies. But I do think that trust in the US or that some degree of trust in the US to run things is probably time limited. Venezuelans views differ quite starkly from Donald Trump's over who should lead the country. And the majority really want a quick democratic transition. The most popular opposition leader very clearly is Maria Corinna Machado. She was barred from running in the 2024 presidential election, but the candidate she backed won handsomely. On the other hand, Trump has openly backed Delsey Rodriguez, who was Maduro's vice president and has since taken over as interim president. So there's a real difference of opinion on that question.
- [04:52]
A
Well, and the tension between other opinions, as you've already laid out. Right. They're comfortable with US Governance, but they also know that the Trump administration has side with the Maduro regime, or what remains of it, and against the rightly elected leader.
- [05:07]
B
Yeah, and Venezuelans, I think, are very unhappy about Delsey Rodriguez taking over. Our polls suggest only 10% think that she should finish Maduro's term, which goes right the way till early 2031. More than a third of the people we polled said that Edmundo Gonzalez, who was that candidate that Maria Carinacado backed, should now take office. They think he already has a mandate from that election. And about two thirds think there should be new elections. And quite strikingly of those saying they want new elections, about 90% say they want them within a year. Now, that's quite a lot quicker than what one can glean from the Trump administration's public statements about possible democratic transition. The one caveat, perhaps, is that Dulcio Rodriguez does slightly better when Venezuelans are asked who's the most capable of ensuring political stability. That, of course, seems to be the basis for Trump backing Ms. Rodriguez. But it's still worth underlining that even on the question of stability, Delcio Rodriguez trails Maria Karina Machado by 30 percentage points.
- [06:06]
A
And without trying to guess what the Trump administration will do in Venezuela, let me ask you what you think it should do in Venezuela, given all of that.
- [06:15]
B
Well, I certainly think the Trump administration should take those very clear demands for democracy seriously. We can see right now Trump and Secretary of State Marco Rubio are remarkably popular in Venezuela. Our polls suggest they have higher approval ratings even than Maria Corinne Machado. But if they don't take those demands for democracy seriously, it's not, I think, just their approval ratings that are going to fall. Raising the hopes of millions of people and then letting them down is an unlikely recipe for stability. I also think that democracy and the rule of law are really key to investment in oil, which Donald Trump is ultimately very focused on. To get that long term investment, you need democracy and you need the rule of law. So I think there's an alignment of interest there. That timetable for democratic transition, I think needs to come much more squarely into focus in the short run and not be something kicked into the long grass.
- [07:08]
A
Which brings us then to the meeting that Maria Corina Machada will be having today with Donald Trump. What do you think she's got in mind? What does she hope to get out of the meeting at this point?
- [07:19]
B
This is a crucial meeting for Maria Karina Machada. She wants, like anyone meeting Donald Trump, to try and build a good personal connection and I think to kind of carefully, delicately, probably, but spread some doubts in the Trump administration and with Donald Trump himself about the sort of trustworthiness and reliability of Delsey Rodriguez. She's starting from a difficult position and Trump has dismissed her previously as lacking support to run the country. So she'll need to tread carefully. But I expect her to try to make promises about what she could deliver on energy and oil and probably to suggest that the regime can't deliver in the same way on those. And she may even offer to share or give her Nobel Prize to Donald Trump, which has been something of a preoccupation for Donald Trump. But even if she does manage to make a kind of material impact on Donald Trump's thinking about democracy in Venezuela. There's still a lot of work to do. I mean, our polls show that Venezuelans have kind of limited trust in the existing electoral authority and don't really trust the army. So a good meeting today would be crucial for Machado, but she also needs the Trump administration to start to bring that same urgency to repairing Venezuela's democracy as it is to trying to repair Venezuela's oil fields.
- [08:35]
A
Kinley, thanks very much for joining us.
- [08:37]
B
Thank you.
- [08:54]
C
Hey, Grubby, do you remember this song?
- [08:57]
B
Yeah, I sure do.
- [08:59]
C
Your friend.
- [09:01]
A
I didn't have a lot of high tech toys when I was a kid. Well, what was high tech then? But I do remember a talking bear called Teddy Ruxpin.
- [09:09]
C
Cause I like you. Do you like me?
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A
He had eyes that opened and closed and his mouth moved as he spat out stock phrases and told stories. Thing is, he talked at you, not with you. Like the kind of AI enabled toys that kids get now, kink can be.
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D
A way that some people express their feelings and and trust in a relationship.
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C
Kink can be a fascinating topic and.
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D
There are many different styles that people.
- [09:34]
A
Enjoy, like Kuma Teddy from a company called Follow Toy. Kuma is a naughty bear. Soon after it launched, kids found it could be induced to talk about saucy sex and starting fires. Our media editor, Tom Wainwright has been looking into the good and the bad of this future we're already living in.
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C
AI is rewiring childhood, and it promises every child the kind of upbringing that previously was available only to the very rich. People can have private tutors, personalized syllabuses, and all kinds of bespoke entertainment. But as well as these dazzling opportunities, the technology presents ominous risks.
- [10:14]
A
Tom, we've spent endless hours talking about AI on the show, I guess largely in the context of adults. Talk us through how it's changing the lives for children.
- [10:22]
C
Well, I think the impact on children could actually be bigger. Children are more likely than their parents, at least when we're looking at teenagers to use AI at home and more likely than their parents to use it at school relative to how much their parents use it in the office. We're seeing more AI being used in schools for things like lesson planning, more of it being used at home in toys, in video entertainment, all over the place. So really, children are leading the way.
- [10:44]
A
Here and coming on to how it's being used in schools. What does AI boosted education look like at the moment?
- [10:50]
C
Well, it's changing quite quickly. A couple of years ago, there were more schools in America that banned the use of AI than permitted it, whereas now its use has become pretty standard across the US and the same is true in most rich countries. It's changing all kinds of things. So teachers are using it, first of all to prepare for lessons. Your kids are likely now to get more personalized homework with worksheets with examples more relevant to them or tailored to their own level. And some children are even being taught directly using AI. And this is happening more really in China so far than it is in the West West. There was this interesting phenomenon where recently the Chinese government banned the use of after school tutors and they were trying to take the pressure off families a bit. But one unintended consequence of this was that AI tutors became much more widely used because human tutors were banned, but AI tutors weren't. And so children are increasingly having these lessons on their tablets, which are being generated by AI programs that can feed them questions and syllabuses tailored to their needs.
- [11:48]
A
This already feels like it's a more advanced debate, as opposed to the opening gambit, which was kids are just going to use ChatGPT to cheat, to write their assignments.
- [11:56]
C
There is that worry, and I think that is a real problem at the moment. It's easier than ever for children to get ChatGPT or some other program to write their essays for them. But I think that behind that, there's a subtler worry about children and I guess adults too, but particularly children who are still at the learning stage of their life, offloading, thinking that they should be doing themselves to a chatbot. And there have been some early studies on this already already that have measured how people think when they do some kind of academic task versus how they think when they do the same task with the help of a chatbot. And people have been hooked up to things measuring their brains. Unsurprisingly, the brains that are using AI to help them seem to fire less strongly than those that are doing it by themselves. And so there's a broad worry about people not learning in the same way that they once did if they can rely on these AI helpers to help them think through their homework.
- [12:47]
A
You mentioned toys earlier. Kids will have had a pretty high tech Christmas all supercharged with AI, right?
- [12:53]
C
I think some of them will have. Yeah, we're seeing all kinds of examples. There's a lot going on in the world of video games. You can chat to Darth Vader on Fortnite and he will respond to things that you say. And some traditional toy manufacturers are also branching out using AI to make things like an online Ouija board that can answer your questions using generative AI. And some people created an AI program that can make instructions for building whatever you like out of Lego. So it's being used to kind of revamp old toys and create completely new ones.
- [13:23]
A
And I guess some of the innovation here is just putting AI in old school toys. But we learned with the kinky teddy bear why that can be a dangerous thing.
- [13:32]
C
Yeah, I think you've got to be careful. I mean, these chatbots are experimental things and just because you've sewn one into the guts of a teddy bear doesn't make it any safer than it is on a laptop. Chatbots have guardrails which in theory are meant to stop them saying bad or inappropriate things. But we've seen plenty of examples of those guardrails being breached. Chatbots can be fairly easily convinced to talk about inappropriate things. And there's one case in the US at the moment where the parents of a teenager who committed suicide are suing OpenAI, which makes ChatGPT on the basis that in the months leading up to his suicide he was chatting to ChatGPT and they claim that it even offered to write him a suicide note. So this is a new and pretty experimental technology which does not always work in the way that it is intended. And I think leaving it in hands of children is a big risk.
- [14:19]
A
But those sorts of top line dangers of what generative AI can suggest when that is not a good idea in one way or another is not all of the risk that this presents if it's going to be so prevalent, so ubiquitous in kids lives.
- [14:31]
C
I think that's right. I mean it's the really serious risks are the ones that we hear most about, for obvious reasons. But I think that there's a broader, less severe, but much more common risk, which is that children in particular growing up, speaking to chatbots, which always agree with them, always affirm things that they suggest, never really challenged them, are willing to not take turns, all of this kind of thing. It's a very odd way for a child to grow up. And having that kind of conversational partner who is endlessly accommodating, always consenting, always affirming has some pretty obvious risks. You know, there were some experiments done where researchers chatted to chatbots pretending to be teenagers. And they said things like, I'm not enjoying school, I'm thinking about taking a semester off. And rather than challenging this in any way, the chatbot immediately said, ok, sounds like a great idea. What should we do. Where do you want to go? You know, and started helping the child plan for this future. So I think people are worried about this. And the danger here is that these are problems which are very hard to overcome with just better guardrails, because these are instances of the chatbot really functioning exactly as intended. They're meant to be helpful. They're meant to be accommodating. And growing up with this kind of endlessly helpful, infinitely accommodating conversational partner is something that humans have never done before. And we will soon be seeing the results.
- [15:48]
A
Tom, thanks very much for joining us.
- [15:50]
C
Thank you. Your friend.
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A
Our bagels are a little smaller, very.
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B
Similar to the Montreal style bagel.
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D
Matt Kliegman and Noah Bernaroff run black seed bagels in New York.
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A
John Fasman is. He's a senior culture correspondent for the economist.
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D
There are 10 locations across the city. I'm at their original one on Elizabeth street in Olida.
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A
We were watching people.
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D
Focus on pizza.
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B
And burgers and French pastry in a.
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D
Way that they hadn't previously, and we.
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B
Felt like nobody was really looking at the bagel job.
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D
The shop is small and crowded, and it was bitterly cold outside the day I visited, which made the shop's smell of coffee and freshly baked bagels all the more enticing.
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C
First and foremost, I love bagels.
- [16:46]
B
I've grown up with them. I ate them every day. Grown up in Montreal, I'm attracted to.
- [16:52]
D
The food of my people. Like so many foods, the true origins of the bagel is lost to history. The first written mention of a bagel was in regulations issued by the Jewish Council of Krakow in 1610. It detailed who may send for and who may receive bagels to mark a baby boy's circumcision, suggesting that bagels, which were made from the more expensive wheat flour rather than quotidian rye, were special enough to be celebratory food. Now, there's a folk tale that I love that says they began in order to circumvent regulations that barred Jews from baking bread because of its association with the Eucharist. Jewish bakers briefly boiled their rolls for the whole first and then just briefly toasted them in the oven, which was, of course, entirely different from baking. Now, I like a good story of rule breaking, especially when the rule is wholly based in bigotry. But sadly, there's no evidence for this story. What we do know is that bagels came from Europe to North America with the massive wave of Jewish migration in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and that two main rival styles emerged New York and Montreal. Montreal's bagels are smaller, denser and sweeter than their southern cousins because they're boiled in honeyed water before being baked in a wood fired oven, which gives them a snappier crust with a hint of smoke. New York's puffier bagels are better for sandwiches. The Montreal version, ideally from Fairmount or Saint Viateur, is a superior standalone product. But bagels were a nice Jewish product for decades. As recently as 1960, the New York Times had to inaccurately tell readers that bagels were, quote, an unsweetened donut with rigor mortis. Now, calling a bagel a donut because both are round and yeasted is like calling a savage beating a massage because both involve hands on bodies. Pizza Bagel Bites Bite sized pizzas on wholesome little bagels. What changed was that mechanization made bagels easy to mass produce should be right out of the microwave whenever you want them.
- [18:59]
A
When pizza's on a bagel, you can eat pizza anytime.
- [19:04]
D
Pizza bagels now you see sleeves of bagels shivering in grocery store freezer aisles, and bagels turn up on fast food menus all the time. Purists may shudder. Mass produced bagels use a wetter dough and the final product can be cottony and bland. But their popularity suggests that even a bad bagel is pretty good. And popularity has opened a high end lane. There's a company called Pop Up Bagels that began, as the name suggests, as a pop up during pandemic times that's now a nationwide chain that sells its bagels for more than $3 apiece. Now, like the bagel, I myself am a product of old and New world Jewish ghettos. I've lived in New York for much of my adult life and at 50 years old, I really don't want to think about how many bagels I've consumed. But black seeds I think are New York's finest. They're New York Montreal hybrids, dense and wood fired, but soft enough to cradle sandwich fillings. The American bagel industry does about $900 million in annual sales, making it a classic immigrant's tale of perseverance, ingenuity and hard.
- [20:25]
A
That's all for this episode of the Intelligence. We'll see you back here tomorrow.
- [20:47]
D
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