Mistrusting the process: containing Congo’s Ebola outbreak

Summary

Economist Podcasts – "Mistrusting the process: containing Congo’s Ebola outbreak"

Date: June 1, 2026
Host: Jason Palmer

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the challenges facing efforts to contain a new Ebola outbreak in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). Chief Africa correspondent John McDermott explains how mistrust between local communities and health authorities, regional instability, and lack of an effective vaccine for the current strain are hampering the response. The episode also touches on Europe's efforts to lessen its dependence on American technology and a culinary segment exploring the resurgence and reinvention of sticky toffee pudding.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Crisis in Eastern Congo: A Troubled Effort to Contain Ebola

• Timestamps: [02:03]–[11:40]
• The outbreak is centered in Ituri, a poor, conflict-ridden province in eastern DRC.
• Official stats: Over 1,000 suspected cases, ~250 deaths (likely underestimates).
  • Spread: Cases now suspected in South Kivu, North Kivu, Uganda, and potentially South Sudan. Unconfirmed reports of cases reaching Brazil.
  • The epicenter remains eastern DRC and surrounding countries.
• Challenges:
  • Profound lack of trust in authority—both local and national governments, and international NGOs.
  • Community customs (ritual body washing) at odds with medical advice (safe Ebola burials).
  • Ongoing violence and the presence of armed militias, including groups linked to Islamic State.
• Notable Quote:
  • “There is so little trust in the state and almost any institution that represents authority. And this means that when medics are trying to offer help, there's often quite a rational response, which is, well, who are you to say you are helping me?”
    —John McDermott [05:47]

Institutional "Immune System" in Crisis

• Field:
  • Slow operational response. Locals distrust isolation tents, testing, and tracing. Trust-building is as crucial as logistics.
• Political Level:
  • Delayed international response; only now are Western nations releasing substantial funding.
  • Central government in Kinshasa is distant, strained relations with regional authorities.
  • Quote:
    • “The most important political capital isn’t London or Washington. It’s actually Kinshasa, 2,000 kilometers away.”
      —John McDermott [08:48]
• Lab/Science:
  • Previous Ebola outbreaks led to vaccines for the Zaire strain; this outbreak is a different type—the Brindi Bujo strain—with no approved vaccine.
  • Oxford University and India’s Serum Institute are developing an experimental vaccine, but deployment will take months.

Outlook

• “It gets worse before it gets better. But... that number [of deaths] can be kept down if the field operations can be surged, if politicians get their act together, and hopefully if scientists can work their miracles as well.”
  —John McDermott [10:57]
• Catch-up is underway, but decisive, coordinated action is needed.

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2. Europe’s High-Tech Dilemma: Breaking Free from American Tech

• Timestamps: [12:56]–[18:32]
• Europe’s dependence on American software—tens of billions spent annually by both public and private sectors.
• Recent push for “technological sovereignty,” especially in sensitive sectors (defense, health, finance).
  • France switching government computers to Linux; Germany’s intelligence service opting for French analytics over American Palantir.
  • EU introducing the Cloud and AI Development Act.

Core Concerns

• Data Sovereignty and Security:
  • U.S. laws (Cloud Act) allow access to European-stored data.
  • Fears of a U.S. tech “kill switch,” though likely exaggerated, are politically useful.
  • Real-world example: ICC chief prosecutor denied email access after U.S. sanctions.
• Big Tech's Response:
  • Microsoft and others offer “sovereign” or air-gapped services but remain under U.S. legal authority.
  • Critics call these efforts “sovereign washing.”
• Competition and Quality:
  • European cloud providers lag on price, quality, and integration, making it hard for firms to switch solely for sovereignty's sake.
• AI’s Role:
  • American control strengthens with AI. European regulation (Digital Markets Act, Digital Services Act) may help, but hard to see true independence soon.

Notable Quotes

• “At the end of the day, ultimately these American firms remain under American control.”
  —Christian Odendaal [15:07]
• “It’s really hard to see European firms switch to different providers purely for the aspect of sovereignty, because they need to stay competitive.”
  —Christian Odendaal [16:39]

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3. Culinary Close: The Resurgent Sticky Toffee Pudding

• Timestamps: [20:08]–[24:03]
• Segment opens with a visit to Hawksmoor in London to sample sticky toffee pudding, guided by development chef Peter Woods.
• Explores the roots and contested invention of the dessert—attributed to Francis Coulson in the 1970s, popularized across Britain by the 1990s.

Modern Evolution via Social Media

• The “STP guy” on TikTok is reviving international interest with viral reviews.
• Creativity abounds: chefs adding miso (for umami), green apple sorbet, and cocoa feuilletine; Jamie Oliver suggesting yogurt instead of cream; fitness enthusiasts propose protein-packed adaptations.
• Debate over tradition vs. innovation:
  • Quote:
    • “When you have a great product to start with, you don’t need the additions to go with it.”
      —Peter Woods [23:43]
  • Jason Palmer and Orey Ogunb admit skepticism of “reinventing” a classic.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It is just hard to imagine a more difficult place to deal with an Ebola outbreak than Ituri.”
  —John McDermott [05:47]
• “We’re playing catch up, but it’s not too late to limit this somewhat.”
  —John McDermott [10:57]
• “[Europe’s] firms, in sectors such as defence or health or finance, are the most concerned about technological sovereignty.”
  —Christian Odendaal [13:53]
• “If it’s perfect already, why add all these funky bits? Just leave it as it is.”
  —Orey Ogunb [23:35]

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Highlight | |------------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 02:03 | Introduces Congo Ebola crisis segment | | 05:47 | Challenges on the ground: trust deficit in Ituri | | 08:48 | Political dimension: role of DRC central govt | | 09:43 | Scientific race for new Ebola vaccine | | 10:57 | Outlook for outbreak – can it be contained? | | 12:56 | Europe vs. American tech dependency | | 13:53 | Nature of European fears about tech sovereignty | | 15:07 | “Sovereign washing” by U.S. tech providers | | 16:32 | Difficulty of switching to European tech alternatives | | 18:04 | Prospects for European innovation and regulation | | 20:08 | Sticky toffee pudding: tradition and TikTok revival | | 23:43 | Debate: Should classics be left alone? |

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Summary in Brief

Three main stories:

1. Ebola in Eastern Congo:
   Efforts to control the outbreak are undermined by deep mistrust, regional conflict, and no effective vaccine, but not all hope is lost if action accelerates.

2. Europe’s Tech Sovereignty:
   Europe wants independence from U.S. tech behemoths, but faces major obstacles in infrastructure, competitiveness, and persistent legal gray areas.

3. Sticky Toffee Pudding Resurrection:
   Britain’s classic dessert is having a viral moment, inspiring both creativity and debate about the value of tradition in a fast-changing food culture.

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For listeners new to this episode, the show examines big-picture institutional challenges, from public health in crisis zones to the geopolitics of technology, while closing with a distinctly lighter, flavorful note.

Transcript

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[Jason Palmer]

The economist. Hello and welcome to the Intelligence from the Economist. I'm Jason Palmer. Today on the show, how Europe is trying to wean itself off American tech and the resurgent phenomenon that is the sticky toffee pudding. First up, though, In the east of the Democratic Republic of Congo, attempts to control a worrisome outbreak of Ebola are being hampered by the very people they're meant to help. Medical tents on fire, burned out beds, the sporadic warning shots of police. Health officials know that safely burying Ebola victims is crucial. Contact with bodies can spread the disease further, but local custom often has it that community members ritually wash the dead, and more to the point, they don't trust the warnings that authorities are giving them. And so you get scenes like this in Rampara with fights over a burial, arson and protest met with tear gas. It's just one of the dynamics that's complicating a crucial response.

[John McDermott]

The world faces a huge task to combat the latest ebola outbreak.

[Jason Palmer]

John McDermott is our chief Africa correspondent.

[John McDermott]

There is no vaccine for this strain and the on the ground realities make tackling it incredibly difficult. So there's a growing recognition that both in Congo, where the outbreak is centered, and in the rest of the region, everyone is playing catch up.

[Jason Palmer]

And before we talk about the challenges that you mention, just give us a sense of what the current state of the outbreak is.

[John McDermott]

All the numbers going around about this outbreak need to be treated with some caution. And that's precisely because the virus has almost certainly been circulating in the Democratic Republic of Congo for at least a couple of months before it was detected. Officially, the Congolese authorities reckon there are more than a thousand suspected cases and about 250 deaths, mostly in the province of Ituri. But firstly, those numbers are likely to be underestimates because of shortage of testing capacity. And secondly, and most worryingly, we are seeing signs of spread to other parts of the region. A couple of other Congolese provinces, South Kivu and North Kivu, have detected suspected cases. Uganda has had several cases as well. And experts are almost certain there will be cases in South Sudan, which is another country, neighboring Ituri. At the same time, we shouldn't become overly hysterical that this is about to turn into a global pandemic. There have been some potential reports of cases being imported by Congolese travelers to, for example, Brazil. Although as I speak to you now, those cases have not been confirmed. The centre of the crisis remains the east of the Democratic Republic of Congo and the surrounding countries.

[Jason Palmer]

Now, you said that realities on the ground are making matters tougher. What do you mean by that?

[John McDermott]

It is just hard to imagine a more difficult place to deal with an Ebola outbreak than Ituri. This province in the east of the drc, it is desperately poor. There are a lot of refugees. There is widespread conflict involving a plethora of militia, including one that has links to Islamic State. And there is so little trust in the state and almost any institution that represents authority. And this means that when medics are trying to offer help, there's often quite a rational response, which is, well, who are you to say you are helping me? Who are you to say that you can protect me. ActionAid NGO did a survey of some of the health areas it works in in Eturi, and it found that a third of people do not believe that Ebola is real. And I'm also picking up from my sources there that there is a lingering sense from previous Ebola outbreaks that when people pitch up offering help, they're perceived to be trying to feather their own nest, as if the Congolese government or international NGOs are doing it to make money as opposed to help them. So, as well as some of the operational issues that they have to deal with in the province, such as setting up isolation tents, you have this intangible challenge as well, which is building the trust of the local population.

[Jason Palmer]

And that feeds into what you spoke about last time on the show about this outbreak, this institutional immune system. That is certainly one part of it, just getting trust on the ground.

[John McDermott]

That's right. The institutional immune system, as I called it, is our protection against epidemics emerging, and then our protection to stop them spreading too far. And you can think of that system operating in three locations. There's the field, there's the offices of politicians, and then there's the lab. So if we start with the field, stopping Ebola at source requires a number of logistical things to happen at the same time. You need to test and monitor these cases. You need to have labs that can confirm results as soon as possible. You need to isolate patients, you need to manage them. You need to track their contacts as well. Of course, as I just mentioned, you also need to build the trust and support of local communities who are deeply distrustful of authority. And while there has clearly been a lot of work going on, as I was speaking to people over the weekend, some of them were literally involved in the construction of isolation tents for NGOs like MSF. There's no doubt that everyone on the ground in Ituri and neighboring areas would say they are playing catch up. And the response has had a very slow start.

[Jason Palmer]

So that's the field. In what way does the institutional immune system involve politicians offices?

[John McDermott]

Well, it seems like Western politicians have belatedly woken up to the scale of the outbreak in Eastern drc. And we've seen over the past few days Britain, the European Union, and the United States announce new funding in the tens of millions of dollars, if not more. And that will help pay for kit and health workers on the ground. But the most important political capital isn't London or Washington. It's actually Kinshasa, 2,000 kilometers away. And much will depend on the relationship between the central government in the DRC and those at a regional level. And over the years, to say the least, that relationship has been somewhat testy. So much will depend on whether the Congolese government can ensure that its authority on the ground can be imposed as well.

[Jason Palmer]

And lastly, you mentioned the lab as one of the fronts here.

[John McDermott]

After the massive outbreak of Ebola in West Africa, which began in 2014, scientists began working on vaccines for the most common strain of the virus known as Zaire. And that has helped health workers essentially ring fence Ebola outbreaks when they've happened. Unfortunately, this particular outbreak has a different strain, the Brindi Bujo strain, and there is as yet no licensed vaccine for it. But as we saw during the COVID pandemic, scientists have become much better at moving at warp speed to develop vaccines. And last week there was an announcement by Oxford University and India's Serum Institute that they were trying to develop a new experimental version of a vaccine which may work against this particular strain. But they also caution that this is untested, even on animals. So at best we're talking two or three months before that is in vials ready to ship.

[Jason Palmer]

So clearly still some challenges on the ground, as you say, but progress, at least in the minds of politicians and funders and some movement in the lab. Does it all come together in time or does this get far worse before it gets better?

[John McDermott]

It gets worse before it gets better. But I think with Ebola it's important to keep some perspective, as hard as that may be. It's a virus that causes some hysteria in some places. It is clearly the most concerning outbreak in Africa since at least 2018, if not 2014, and many hundreds, if not thousands of people are likely to die. But that number can be kept down if the field operations can be surged, if politicians get their act together, and hopefully if scientists can work their miracles as well. So we're playing catch up, but it's not too late to limit this somewhat.

[Jason Palmer]

John, thanks very much for joining us again.

[John McDermott]

Thank you, Jason.

[Jason Palmer]

Let me draw your attention to the latest episode of the weekend Intelligence. In it, our correspondent is confronted with a truth he's not sure whether to believe. He's trying to live a quiet life after a traumatic one. Is he just being paranoid or is his mild mannered neighbor, in fact a prolific spy? It's a picture both of challenging inner demons and of the way modern China does its spycraft. Go to where you found this show and wind back to Saturday for a gripping listen. Germany's federal government pays almost half a billion euros each year in license fees to Microsoft. An association of French businesses reckons that big companies there buy more than $50 billion of American software and cloud services every year. But the truth is it's not the bank statements that are making Europe's businesses and governments queasy about all that reliance.

[Christian Odendaal]

Europe is trying to escape the lock in of American tech giants.

[Jason Palmer]

Christian Odendaal is our European Economics editor.

[Christian Odendaal]

But with AI, the grip of American tech is, if anything, growing tighter.

[Jason Palmer]

When you say Europe's trying to escape, how so? What are European governments and companies doing?

[Christian Odendaal]

On June 3 and current plans, the EU will unveil a package which is called a tax sovereignty package. So that includes Cloud and AI Development Act. To have more of that capacity in Europe, France is switching, you know, all government computers from Windows to Linux, which is an originally Europe based operating system. Germany's intelligence service has just opted for a French data analytics firm over America's Palantir. And you could see that the firms insensitive sectors such as defence or health or finance, that they are the most concerned about technological sovereignty.

[Jason Palmer]

But what is the nature of the concern?

[Christian Odendaal]

So there are a couple of worries. I think the first one is about sensitive data and sensitive services that they may no longer be as safe as previously thought. So for example, the American Cloud act gives governments the power to request data from tech firms, even if that data is stored in Europe or even by a subsidiary. There was a leaked report by experts that argued against using Palantir, in part because the experts from the Swiss army feared that Switzerland may be dependent on specialized staff from the service provider. And then there's also the concern that America may wield this as a geopolitical weapon in the future in the form of a kill switch that can just turn off services. And that fear is probably exaggerated, but as one expert said, it's a useful political framing device to make sure that people understand and are aware of what is essentially a much more complex issue of dependency. But it's not completely unfounded. The chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court in the Hague, for example, Karim Khan, lost his email access after being sanctioned by America.

[Jason Palmer]

But American providers seeing all of these governments and businesses heading for the door, must be doing something to calm their fears.

[John McDermott]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Christian Odendaal]

I mean Europe is a big market for them. So Microsoft for example, is promising European users never to cut them off and to fight American data requests in court. All big cloud providers now have some kind of sovereign service that they offer. Google even has an air gapped cloud service with no connection to the public Internet for customers with very high security needs, such as the German armed forces that according to press reports, have opted for that particular cloud. Critics say, well, this is basically sovereign washing, because at the end of the day, ultimately these American firms remain under American control.

[Jason Palmer]

So ultimately then this all boils down to just a security concern, even more perhaps than a sovereignty one.

[Christian Odendaal]

There is a longer standing issue about digital services spreading harmful content and misinformation, and it's about regulating social media. Right. And the arrival of AI has intensified that concern because there is another potentially much more powerful digital service largely in the hands of American firms. Now, Europe has already developed countermeasures, the Digital Markets act. Let the EU punish anticompetitive behaviors by these big platforms, platforms. And there's a Digital Services act which can force American firms to adjust their services if it's found that they facilitates harmful content, for example. Right. Even though, you know, it may give European providers a bit more room. From the experience so far, it seems that it's really unlikely to make Europe much less dependent on America.

[Jason Palmer]

So perhaps the simpler answer is to switch to European providers. You suggested earlier that plenty of governments are doing so.

[Christian Odendaal]

That's right. And it's related to a third concern, which is about European growth. The fear here is that Europe is losing the technological race against America and China, and that includes artificial intelligence, which is also reaching into many sectors where Europe is still strong, such as industry. And this is why, together with the security aspects mentioned before, that many would like to have European providers just to stay competitive in this technological race as well. One question there is how easy it is for users to switch. Hyperscalers, provide these integrated services and the scale necessary to make them efficient. But that also creates a lock, in effect, that is really hard for businesses in particular, who really need to remain competitive, to switch to a different provider also, in part because their customers are also using the same providers. And that creates synergies there too. And then there's of course, the quality and the cost. A survey of Danish firms, Danish firms use clouds the most across Europe, found that their top concerns, besides security and legal compliance, were the quality and the ease of use and the price. So it's really hard to see European firms switch to different providers purely for the aspect of sovereignty, because they need to stay competitive.

[Jason Palmer]

So the question is whether Europe actually can catch up either through innovation or regulation, I suppose here. What do you make of that prospect?

[Christian Odendaal]

It's difficult. I mean, there is this demand for more sovereignty, but at the same time Building an entire tech ecosystem from the ground up is extremely difficult. And that is sort of the entire ecosystem from the chip making and the data centers and the software and the integrated services and so forth. And at the same time in America, there's a very strong economic dynamic in building these technologies, which Europe will never be able to match.

[Jason Palmer]

Christian, thanks very much for your time.

[Christian Odendaal]

Thank you very much, Jason.

[Nick and Jack]

Hey Yetis, this is Nick and Jack from the Best One yet podcast. Now, the last company we worked at, they used Paylocity and everything just worked. It wasn't until launching our own media business, this show that we realized how rare that is. Because Paylocity is one delicious burrito of operational needs. They roll up hr, finance and it seamlessly into one delicious bite. When everything wraps together like that, all at once, your workforce, your tech stack, your business, you don't need more tools, you don't even need cilantro. You need one solution. And that is why Paylocity built a single platform to connect hr finance and IT with AI driven insights and automated workflows that simplify the complex and power what's next. Or as we call it, a delicious operational burrito. Yes, we do experience a one place for all your HCM needs besties. So start [e-mail].

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[Jason Palmer]

That is so lush. That is so wonderful. My ex co host Ore Ogunb recently sent me to Hawksmoor, a restaurant in London to try a famous British dessert. So this is just a dessert station.

[Peter Woods]

Just a dessert, right. So all the desserts we get make fresh.

[Jason Palmer]

Peter woods, the group's development chef, took us to where the magic happens.

[Peter Woods]

We have our sticky toffee puddings which we're just going to finish off. So these are basically we make them up in batches, right? So with our dark and light muscovado sugar, we've got eggs in there, some beautiful medal dates that we boiled the water with bicarbonate soda.

[Jason Palmer]

It's a pretty rich, hearty thing, I gotta say. It's probably my favorite British dessert. Sauce and more sauce.

[John McDermott]

Sauce, more.

[Peter Woods]

It's all about sauce. You can never have enough sauce.

[Jason Palmer]

What's in the Sauce.

[Peter Woods]

So the sauce again, light and dark, Muscovado, sugar, butter, equal amounts of butter.

[Jason Palmer]

Orey, I know this might be painful for you because you might have liked to be there to try one of these.

[Orey Ogunb]

Jason, I am bitterly disappointed. I don't have the words. I'm really upset to have missed this very crucial moment, this groundbreaking journalism that you got to do without me.

[Jason Palmer]

Ah, but that I did because of you. Because you have been looking into the phenomenon that is the sticky toffee pudding.

[Orey Ogunb]

Yes, exactly. The sticky toffee pudding is seen as a traditional British meal, but I found it quite interesting that actually has a mix of non British influences and its origins are a little bit controversial or contested. At least there's a guy called Francis Coulson who is credited with its invention in the 1970s. But then there's a hotel down the road in the Lake District that says that they popularized the state cookie toffee pudding. So regardless of who did, it did become a pub staple by about the 1990s and also pretty popular on school dinner menus probably in the decade afterwards.

[Jason Palmer]

Okay, so that's still in the distant past. Why are we talking about it now?

[Orey Ogunb]

So there's this TikToker called the STP guy. He calls himself the STP guy and he's made these really quirky videos. They've got hundreds of thousands of views and they've stirred up new interest in sticky toffee puddings across the world.

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I've just reviewed my 61st sticky toffee pudding, but the big question is, what

[John McDermott]

did it get out of 10? This STP was from the Travel.

[Orey Ogunb]

He rated Hawksmoor's STP. So the one that you tried as the best in London. And I thought if I couldn't come and try it myself, I might as well ask you very nicely. He's going to do it for me.

[Jason Palmer]

That is very selfless of you, and I couldn't be more grateful because it was great. But in your hunting, you found far less traditional versions of these things than the one I tried at Hawksmoor, where they are really sticking to the old school.

[Orey Ogunb]

Yeah, exactly. People are getting really creative with sticky toffee puddings and pushing the boundaries on sticky and toffee. One Australian cookbook writer, for example, suggested adding miso to get a little bit of umami flavor in there. There's a New York chef who adds a cocoa feuilletine crumble for crunch. There's another one who adds a green apple sorbet to a sticky toffee pudding. Others try and make it healthy. You've got Jamie Oliver, the British chef who suggests yogurt instead of having cream or ice cream or custard. With the sticky toffee pudding, you've got the gym bros saying switch double cream for almond milk or protein powder or just add an extra egg. It's turned into a bit of a wild, wild west.

[Jason Palmer]

Jason, you sound a little dubious about these strayings from the traditional.

[Orey Ogunb]

I just feel like if it's perfect already, why add all these funky bits? Just leave it as it is.

[Jason Palmer]

No, in truth, Chef Peter told me exactly the same thing.

[Peter Woods]

In my view, it doesn't need it. I think when you have a great product to start with, you don't need the additions to go with it.

[Jason Palmer]

I don't mean to keep stressing this and making you more and more envious, Orey, but it was indeed pretty damned good.

[Orey Ogunb]

If you are trying to tempt me to come back to London, it might be working.

[Jason Palmer]

With great gratitude and a little bit of sadness for you, Orey. Thanks very much for your time.

[Orey Ogunb]

It's okay. I just about forgive you for enjoying sticky toffee puddings without me. Thanks for having me, Jason.

[Jason Palmer]

That's all for this episode of the Intelligence. We'll see you back here tomorrow.

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[Nick and Jack]

and Jack from the Best One yet podcast. Now, the last company we worked at, they used Paylocity and everything just worked. It wasn't until launching our own media business this show that we realized how rare that is. Because Paylocity is one delicious burrito of operational needs. They roll up HR finance and it seamlessly into one delicious bite. When everything wraps together like that, all at once, your workforce, your tech stack, your business, you don't need more tools. You don't even need cilantro. You need one solution. And that is why Paylocity built a single platform to connect hr finance and IT with AI driven insights and automated workflows that simplify the complex and power. What's next? Or as we call it, a delicious operational burrito. Yes, we do experience a one place for all your HCM needs besties. So start now at paylocity.com1paylocity com1.