Nicolás caged: what next for Venezuela?

Summary

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Economist Podcasts: "Nicolás caged: what next for Venezuela?"

Date: January 5, 2026
Host: Jason Palmer
Guests: Shashank Joshi (Defense Editor), Hal Hodson (Americas Editor)

Main Theme

The episode dissects the dramatic U.S. special operations raid that resulted in the seizure of Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro and examines the fallout for Venezuela, the region, and American foreign policy. The hosts explore the motivations behind the Trump administration’s actions, the complexities of regime change, the uncertain future of Venezuelan governance, and the message sent to other Western Hemisphere countries.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Daring Raid and its Execution

• Dramatic Capture: Over the weekend, American special forces executed a surprise nighttime raid, seizing President Nicolás Maduro, who was then extradited to the U.S. ([02:02]).
• Scale & Precision:
  • "America had used more than 150 aircraft launching from 20 different bases across the Western Hemisphere, all of them coming together right at the same time over Venezuela." — Shashank Joshi ([05:13])
  • Elite units like the 160th SOAR and Delta Force were involved, flying stealthily at just 100 feet above water and using terrain to evade detection ([05:13]-[06:42]).
  • The operation had echoes of the 1989 Panama invasion to capture Noriega but was smaller, swifter, and, militarily, more successful ([06:51]).
• Notable Moment: Trump described the raid as an “assault like people have not seen since World War II” ([04:51]).

2. America’s Motivations & Policy Implications

• Big Picture: The Trump administration signaled a broader push for dominance in the Western Hemisphere:
  • “Hemispheric dominance, that’s our game.” — Jason Palmer ([18:20])
  • Trump named Maduro's vice president, Delcy Rodríguez, as the U.S.’s “partner” in Venezuela, suggesting an intention to govern through the existing regime’s remnants ([03:29]) and dismissed the political opposition ([14:47]).
• Motives Explored:
  • Hal Hodson: “He wants to project power across America’s backyard, across the Western Hemisphere. This much is very clear now. He’s also obviously very interested in Venezuela’s largest oil deposits in the world.” ([11:43])
  • While narcotics interdiction provided official justification, oil and regional influence dominated Trump’s own rhetoric. “[Trump] talked very little, if at all, about drug running... It’s about power for him.” — Hal Hodson ([13:12])

3. Aftermath and Regional Shockwaves

• Uncertainty in Venezuela:
  • Despite Maduro’s capture, regime infrastructure remains: “All of those around Mr. Maduro, even if they sold him out, are still there.” — Shashank Joshi ([07:38])
• Opposition Sidelined:
  • Trump ignored the democratically elected leader, María Corina Machado (2024 election winner; Nobel Peace Prize nominee), instead propping up regime figure Delcy Rodríguez. “The opposition is squashed, first by the Maduro regime, then by Donald Trump.” — Hal Hodson ([15:31])
• Cautious Regime Collaboration:
  • Rodríguez’s rhetoric quickly shifted from defiance (“America was a barbaric aggressor” ([15:40])) to a willingness to negotiate under U.S. force ([15:50]-[16:12]).
• Regional Warning: Trump has publicly referenced Cuba, Colombia, Mexico, and even Greenland as potential future targets of American action ([04:01], [10:03]).

4. Challenges of ‘Running’ Venezuela

• Leveraging Power: The notion of “running” Venezuela is met with skepticism:
  • “We’ve got coercive leverage over the regime now, and if they don’t do what we say, policy-wise, then we’re going to smack them. If that counts as running the country, then sure.” — Hal Hodson ([13:51])
  • The regime is amorphous, with entrenched military interests unlikely to bow to immediate American wishes ([13:51]).
• Long-Term Viability: U.S. military advantage is clear, but domestic American appetite for occupation is low, especially with upcoming midterms ([17:36]).
  • “One difficulty for Trump is that...what he’s doing and saying he will do in Venezuela, he’s saying he’s willing to put boots on the ground...is incredibly unpopular in America.” — Hal Hodson ([17:36])
  • Rodríguez may simply play for time, waiting out Trump’s leverage ([17:36]-[18:20]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Raid’s Success:
  • "Operation Absolute Resolve. America's mission to snatch Nicolas Maduro was a textbook success in military terms.” — Shashank Joshi ([04:36])
  • “There was a lot of gunfire. You saw some of it today. He was trying to get to his safe place, which wasn't safe because we would have had the door blown up.” — Donald Trump ([06:42])
• On U.S. Dominance:
  • “Hemispheric dominance, that’s our game. This was telegraphed. ... But nobody who read that thought this was what it was going to be.” — Jason Palmer and Hal Hodson ([18:20]-[18:30])
• On Trump’s Approach to Venezuelan Democracy:
  • “The opposition is squashed, first by the Maduro regime, then by Donald Trump.” — Hal Hodson ([15:31])
• On Future Risks for Regional Leaders:
  • “If you’re a Latin American leader sitting in America’s back garden, you would be looking at these military capabilities... and I think you’d feel a little bit nervous.” — Shashank Joshi ([10:11])

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• [02:00] – Initial summary of events: Maduro’s capture, U.S. involvement
• [04:36] – Shashank Joshi details "Operation Absolute Resolve"
• [07:38] – Comparison with past U.S. interventions (e.g., Panama, Afghanistan, Iraq)
• [10:03] – Trump’s explicit threats to Cuba and others
• [13:51] – Analysis of what it means for the U.S. to “run” Venezuela
• [14:47] – Ignoring the opposition and installing a regime figurehead
• [15:40] – Delcy Rodríguez’s shifting rhetoric
• [17:36] – Challenges in sustaining U.S. control and domestic political implications
• [18:20] – "Hemispheric dominance" policy outlined

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Tone and Style

• Matter-of-fact, analytical, and clear-eyed; hosts avoid overt speculation but do not hide skepticism about U.S. intentions or prospects for long-term success.
• Trump’s characteristic bravado and unpredictability are referenced frequently, contrasted with more nuanced insights from the Economist’s editors.

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Conclusion

The episode delivers an incisive breakdown of the extraordinary U.S. operation that removed Nicolás Maduro, critically examining the military prowess, political motivations, regional ramifications, and profound uncertainties ahead. The hosts and guests see this as an inflection point—not just for Venezuela, but for America’s approach to power in the hemisphere—with skeptical acknowledgement that the hardest tasks are still to come.

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For more analysis and updates, the episode invites listeners to a special video roundtable with top editors on the future of Venezuela and American foreign policy.

Transcript

[Christy]

Hi, this is Christy from Back to the Bar. You've probably heard about GLP1 weight loss medications and the side effects that can come with jumping in too fast. That's why I love Noom. Makes getting started easy. Their microdose GLP1 program begins with a smaller dose and gradually scales up based on how your body reacts. The Noom GLP1 microdose program starts at $99 and is delivered to your door in seven days. Start your microdose GLP1 journey today at noom.com that's n o. Com Noom Micro Changes Big results average weight loss 8 pounds in first month meds and personalization based on clinical need and not available to all individuals. Medications are not reviewed by FDA for safety, efficacy or quality. Pricing based on first month only Did.

[Donald Trump]

I talk too much?

[Hal Hodson]

Can I just let it go?

[BetterHelp Narrator]

Take a breath. You're not alone. Counseling helps you sort through the noise with qualified professionals. Get matched with a therapist online based on your unique needs and get help with everyday struggles like anxiety or managing tough emotions. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of online therapy and let life feel better.

[Jason Palmer]

The economist. Hello and welcome to the Intelligence from the Economist. I'm your host Jason Palmer. Every weekday we provide a fresh perspective on the events shaping your world. As part of our World Ahead series. Looking at what 2026 has in store for countries, trends and industries, we take a look at the business of gaming having fairly well saturated the markets that it's in. New regions and demographics beckon. But first to Venezuela. What a weekend it was for Venezuelans. And for one Venezuelan in particular. First surprise airstrikes, then a daring nighttime raid by American special forces to seize President Nicolas Maduro after a stint on an amphibious warship, a blindfolded plane trip to the US Mr. Maduro was photographed expressionless during all of this. Then, when perp walked through the halls of the Drug Enforcement Agency in New York, he had an incongruous holiday message for onlookers.

[Donald Trump]

Good night.

[Tom Wainwright]

Good night. Happy New Year.

[Jason Palmer]

For weeks, America had been assembling its largest force in the Caribbean in decades, sinking alleged drug boats, seizing Venezuelan oil tankers, and generally making dark threats against Mr. Maduro. Now having deposed him, the Trump administration claims it has unfettered control over the.

[Donald Trump]

Country, going to stay until such time as the proper transition can take place. So we're going to stay until such time as we're going to run it, essentially until such time as a proper transition can take place.

[Jason Palmer]

Easier said than done, Mr. Trump named Mr. Maduro's handpicked vice President, Delsey Rodriguez, as the administration's partner in making Venezuela great again. There are a lot of questions about how that's going to go. America's recent history in brute force regime change is, let's call it, spotty. In any case, this shock move has underlined how serious the Trump administration is about its dominance of the Western Hemisphere. Colombia, Mexico, Cuba. Mr. Trump has mentioned them all.

[Donald Trump]

Oh, and right now, Greenland is covered with Russian and Chinese ships all over the place. We need Greenland. From the standpoint point of national security.

[Jason Palmer]

After the dramatic way America went after Mr. Maduro, what were once muddled threats now seem very much worth taking seriously. Because putting aside what happens from now, what America did over the weekend was an absolutely clinical operation.

[Shashank Joshi]

Operation Absolute Resolve. America's mission to snatch Nicolas Maduro was a textbook success in military terms.

[Jason Palmer]

Shashank Joshi is our defense editor.

[Shashank Joshi]

President Trump described it as an assault.

[Donald Trump]

Like people have not seen since World War II.

[Shashank Joshi]

Secretary of State Marco Rubio insisted a bit more modestly, it's largely a law enforcement function.

[Jason Palmer]

Remember, at the end of the day, at its core, this was an arrest of two indicted fugitives of American justice. And the Department of War supported the Department of Justice in that job. Broader policy implications here, the truth of.

[Shashank Joshi]

America's nighttime raid is somewhere in between. This was probably one of the most complex military operations America has launched in many years. Alongside the bombing of Iran last summer, it was months of planning. America had used more than 150 aircraft launching from 20 different bases across the Western Hemisphere, all of them coming together right at the same time over Venezuela. It involved stealthy helicopter flights flown by an elite American unit called the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment. And they were flying just 100ft above the water. And as they approached Caracas, they used the mountainous terrain around the capital to conceal their movements. They arrived at Nicolas Maduro's compound at just after 2:00am local time. @ least one helicopter was hit on arrival, but it was able to fly home. There were bullet and shrapnel wounds, so this really could have gone a lot worse. The troops who actually entered Mr. Maduro's compound were from America's Delta Force. This is an elite army special forces unit. They're the ones who captured Mr. Maduro and his wife, who had been sleeping. Donald Trump told us that Mr. Maduro sought to enter a safe room, but he was unable to close its steel doors before he was.

[Donald Trump]

Seized. There was a lot of gunfire. You saw Some of it today. He was trying to get to his safe place, which wasn't safe because we would have had the door blown.

[Shashank Joshi]

Up. This raid very much evokes America's earlier assault on Panama back in 1989, and that was also to detain and whisk away another Latin American leader who was accused of drug related charges. In that case, it was Manuel Noriega. It's still too early to predict the outcome of the fighting in Panama, and it's still not clear whether General Noriega will ever be brought to America to face drug charges. But that was actually quite a bit different. It was a full fledged invasion. It had more than 27,000 troops involved. About half of those troops were already in Panama. And it was a much less effective operation. Noriega evaded capture initially, and one of the most abiding memories of that conflict is famously Noriega being blasted with rock music as he took refuge in the Vatican's mission in Panama. I think this is quite different. I think Trump is probably right that no other country could pull off a mission quite on this scale. This was an incredibly impressive operation in military terms. That doesn't mean it will fulfill America's political aims insofar as we know what they are. I think they're a little bit muddled. It has decapitated the regime by removing its leader. But actually, all of those around Mr. Maduro, even if they sold him out, are still there. And in fact, one of the most striking things was hearing Donald Trump dismiss the Venezuelan opposition, suggesting he would instead prefer to work with the vice president, who is really a regime figure. And as America found in 2001 in Afghanistan, where it toppled the Taliban very fast, and in 2003 in Iraq, where it was able to effectively knock over Saddam Hussein's regime in pretty short order. Military prowess in the first day or two of a campaign is impressive sometimes, but it's little guide to long term success, which depends on much more complex political and diplomatic factors. If you look at American Special Forces, whether Delta Force operatives who did this raid, or Navy seals or others, this raid in some ways is an opportunity for them to show the Trump administration just how useful they can be to its foreign policy goals. And that's particularly appealing to this administration because they are really averse to what they see as America's mistake of the 2000s. Big footprint, heavy troop intensive interventions in a country on a large scale. And the question for me is, does this sort of whet his appetite for whether this could be a model for other places in the region. On the same day as the raid, we saw the wife of a senior White House official issue a social media statement in which she suggested that Greenland, which is a territory of Denmark, a NATO ally, could be next. We also saw Trump talk about Colombia being on notice, and he said explicitly Cuba was on his.

[Donald Trump]

List. And I think Cuba is going to be something we'll end up talking about because Cuba is a failing nation right now, very badly. Failing.

[Shashank Joshi]

Nations. And I think if you're a Latin American leader sitting in America's back garden, you would be looking at these military capabilities. You would be looking at America's sense of triumph after this. And I think you'd feel a little bit.

[Jason Palmer]

Nervous. I think there's enough nerves to go around in particular for Venezuelans, who have suffered under the illegitimate rule of Mr. Maduro for years. How will the country now be run? What of its opposition? How much of that military buildup and then precision strike is about what the Trump administration has been saying? It's about to talk about that this morning, I spoke with Hal Hodson, our America's.

[Hal Hodson]

Editor. In his press conference after seizing Maduro, Trump said that Maduro's vp, Delsey Rodriguez, was going to be America's woman in Venezuela, essentially, that America was going to run Venezuela through her was the implication. And over the weekend, there was some kind of back and forth. She said some pretty spicy things about America, called America barbaric, said that Nicolas Maduro was still the president. But then late last night, she softened that, perhaps after Mr. Trump, while on Air Force One, threatened to do far worse to her than had been done to Maduro. So the back and forth between the leftovers of the regime, which is most of it, let's be clear, Maduro is just one guy. And the Trump administration is still very live, still very open. And that's going to define the next few weeks and months of.

[Jason Palmer]

This. So let's wind back and talk again about why America is suddenly so interested in Venezuela in the first.

[Hal Hodson]

Place. Well, it's not that sudden. It's been months and months. How long has the Gerald Ford, the world's most powerful aircraft carrier, been in the Caribbean off the Venezuelan coast? Since October. And we've been talking about this buildup and internally talking about when the Americans were going to do something and what they were going to do for a very long time. Now, the scale of what they've done, just snatching him with helicopters in the middle of the night and then announcing that they run, that surprised us. I think it surprised Most people, the baseline analyst's case was they're gonna drone a shed in the middle of the jungle and call it a win. But they didn't do that. They did something much, much more dramatic. Why is Trump interested? He wants to project power across America's backyard, across the Western Hemisphere. This much is very clear now. He's also obviously very interested in Venezuela's largest oil deposits in the world. I think he's also just interested in looking like the big strong man who can just wh away the leader of a country by clicking his fingers and deploying the world's most powerful military. And also, Maduro was a really nasty piece of work. He oversaw torture, repression, jailing people. Venezuelans have been miserable for years under him, as they were miserable for years under Chavez, but particularly under him. He was an adir in Venezuelan social.

[Jason Palmer]

Life. What's interesting is in talking about the reasons you don't mention, the one which is the notional big one, certainly for the buildup, for the shooting of the boats in the Caribbean was.

[Hal Hodson]

Drawn. I didn't mention it because that's not what Donald Trump is talking about. When he gave his press conference after seizing Maduro, the main thing he talked about was oil. It always came back to oil. But he even talked about how he'd put boots on the ground if he had to. He talked about democracy and Venezuelans and freedom. He talked very little, if at all, about drug running. And is it a motivation for what the administration has been doing in Venezuela over recent months? Absolutely. But is it the primary thing, moving Trump to do things like this and then to threaten Greenland and threaten the Mexicans and threaten Colombia? No, it's about power for.

[Jason Palmer]

Him. And so what do you make of the suggestion that America will now run.

[Hal Hodson]

Venezuela? Every time we have used that word, we have put it in big quote marks because we don't think that America's running Venezuela because that word means something. What Marco Rubio says is probably the fairest way of approaching this. He says, when we say run, what we mean is we've got coercive leverage over the regime now, and if they don't do what we say, policy wise, then we're gonna smack them. If that counts as running the country, then sure. The problem with that is that the regime is a squirming, amorphous thing that's hard to pin down, with lots of its own interests, factions fighting each other within it. The idea that one lever of force can direct that regime to do what the Americans want or what the Americans want is even reasonable in the first place or practical is a whole different question. And there's a huge amount of road to run on that.

[Jason Palmer]

Question. Well, let's pick that apart a little bit. As Shashank mentioned, Mr. Trump did not vest power or any interest, indeed, in Venezuela's opposition.

[Hal Hodson]

Leader. No, not at all. And it was one of the most dramatic moments of the press conference he gave after they seized Maduro. So Maria Corina Machado is the leading light of the Venezuelan opposition. She is the Nobel Peace Prize winner, allegedly upsetting Mr. Trump in accepting it. Reports to the Washington Post. She and the opposition legitimately won the Venezuelan election in 2024. And they pulled off this amazing operation of collect tally sheets from every polling booth in the country to prove that they had won. And even though they proved that they had won by a landslide, something like 65 to 35, the Maduro regime just said, that's not the result. The result is we won 55 to 45. That's the end of it. So the opposition is squashed first by the Maduro regime, then by Donald.

[Jason Palmer]

Trump. But the Trump administration has said that instead, Del C. Rodriguez is America's woman in Venezuela. I guess my question is, what does she think of.

[Hal Hodson]

That? Well, initially, it seemed like what she thought of that was that America was a barbaric aggressor. Barbaric was her word. She maintained that they were just waiting for Nicolas Maduro to be returned to them and that he was the rightful president of Venezuela. But in the last few hours, really, overnight, last night, her stance softened a bit, and she talked about being willing to work with the Americans and have a dialogue and negotiate and all that kind of stuff. The fact the Americans do have overwhelming force against the Venezuelans, there's nothing the Venezuelans can do about that is having some kind of an impact, but there's a lot of things to shake.

[Jason Palmer]

Out within the regime yet within the regime and within the country. I mean, what's your sense of what Venezuelans themselves.

[Hal Hodson]

Want? Venezuelans themselves want the person that they democratically elected, or at least the party that they democratically elected, the group of people that they chose to be fair to the Trump administration. It's quite hard to see how you would just throw Maria Corinna Machado into Venezuela, make her the president by American fiat, and not deal with the fact that the regime is propped up by the military. And the military has been groomed and essentially brainwashed for decades that this is their job. So they're not just going to be like, oh, Great. Here's Machado. We back her now. It's a subtler process than that, and that's what Marco Rubio says, is that this is a process of stabilization and starting to make the country a bit more prosperous under Rodriguez and at American direction, and that in good time, there will be elections, and presumably Machado or the opposition will be eligible to run in those elections, but we don't know anything about that yet. And Donald Trump, when asked on Air Force One last night, was totally vague about that. He said, it's too early for that. The thing we care about right now is the.

[Jason Palmer]

Oil. So you say, as of this moment, that Mr. Trump, the administration does have the leverage that it wants over Dulcie Rodriguez. Is that just in this moment, do you think, or is that lasting? Do you think he's got real lasting leverage over the country and things will go as America plans at this.

[Hal Hodson]

Moment? Well, America's gonna outmatch Venezuela militarily for the foreseeable future. But I think one difficulty for Trump is that what he's doing and saying he will do in Venezuela, he's saying he's willing to put boots on the ground in order to keep control of the situation in Venezuela, is incredibly unpopular in America and particularly unpopular with his base. And so I think if you're Dulcie Rodriguez sitting in Caracas, one thing you're probably thinking is, let's play this out. Let's get a little bit closer to the American midterms. And it's going to become harder and harder for Trump to actually do anything to us. And the longer we wait, the easier it is for us to run this country the way we want. And so we can say, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're going to talk to the Americans, we're happy to negotiate, et cetera, and just play for.

[Jason Palmer]

Time. But this is, in its way, in keeping with what we saw in the National Security Strategy published late last year, which basically said, hemispheric dominance, that's our game. This was.

[Hal Hodson]

Telegraphed. Not only is it in keeping with that, it is an incredibly dramatic demonstration of that. Like, nobody who read that thought this was what it was going to be. We're going to basically start running this country as a pseudo corporate state, and everyone's going to profit from the oil. That was not in the cards. I think it tells us so much about what they really mean by that strategy. That's why the wind is up. Greenland and Canada and Mexico and Colombia and every country in the Western Hemisphere is Now, to quote Mr. Trump, who said that this is what Gustavo Petro, the president of Colombia, should be doing, watching their.

[Jason Palmer]

Asses. Hal, thanks very much for your.

[Hal Hodson]

Time. Thanks for having me.

[Jason Palmer]

Jason. Later today, Shashank and Hal will join the Economist's Editor in chief, Zanny Minton Beddowes, Deputy Editor Ed Carr and Latin America correspondent Kinley Salmon for a special bonus edition of our new video show Insider. They'll consider what comes next in Venezuela and analyze Donald Trump's vision of power abroad. Find Insider in the Economist app or on economist.com from 6pm UK time.

[Christy]

Tonight. Hi, this is Christy from Back to the Bar. You've probably heard about GLP1 weight loss medications and the side effects that can come with jumping in too fast. That's why I love Noom makes getting started easy. Their microdose GLP1 program begins with a smaller dose and gradually scales up based on how your body reacts. The Noom GLP1 microdose program starts at $99 and it's delivered to your door in seven days. Start your microdose GLP1 journey today at noom.com that's n o o m.com Noom micro changes big results average weight loss 8 pounds in first month meds and personalization based on clinical need and not available to all individuals. Medications are not reviewed by FDA for safety, efficacy or quality. Pricing based on first month only.

[Jason Palmer]

Did I talk too.

[Hal Hodson]

Much? Did I just let it.

[BetterHelp Narrator]

Go? Take a breath. You're not alone. Let's talk about what's going on. Counseling helps you sort through the noise with qualified professionals, and online therapy makes it convenient. See if it's for you. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of online therapy and let life feel.

[Tom Wainwright]

Better. Hey hey. Fans have been waiting 13 years for a new Grand Theft Auto game, And the next one, GTA 6, is due out towards the end of this.

[Jason Palmer]

Year. Tom Wainwright is the Economist's media.

[Tom Wainwright]

Editor. Analysts reckon that it's going to sell more than $3 billion worth of copies in its first year alone, which could make it the most valuable launch of any kind in entertainment history. But this big, big hit arrives during what is otherwise a pretty bleak time for the gaming.

[Jason Palmer]

Industry. What do you mean by that? Why are things.

[Tom Wainwright]

Bleak? It's just had a rough time. It's funny because it had a fantastic decade going up to about 2021. It was this era when smartphones were arriving all around the world. So suddenly everybody, even if they hadn't been into gaming before, suddenly had a Games console in their pocket, really. And then Covid came along and everybody was looking for new hobbies, new stuff to do at home. And so over this decade, spending on games rocketed. It was growing about 10% a year for a straight Dec. Amazing period. Things have stalled in a bad way. One problem is that mobile phone penetration has plateaued. You know, everybody has got one now, so there's no extra growth there. Covid obviously has come to an end. And a lot of the people who picked up gaming during the pandemic lockdowns have gone back to doing more outdoorsy stuff instead. And the upshot of all this is that investors are not so interested as they used to be. And spending on gaming is growing much less quickly. Last year, 2025, it grew by less than 1% globally. So it's having a difficult.

[Jason Palmer]

Time. What chances then that this next Grand Theft Auto release turns the.

[Tom Wainwright]

Tide? It will certainly help. One impact of GTA could be that the average price of games goes up now. Games have cost $70 now for quite a long time despite inflation. And over the years, actually they're now about a third cheaper in real terms than they were two decades ago. A lot of people think that the new GTA might be priced somewhat higher, and if it is, that could well give cover for other games to do the same. We might see it being more common for games to be published costing more like $80 for example, and that will obviously help developers margins. The industry is also going to have a bit of a boost on the hardware side. We saw last year Nintendo Release the Switch 2, hugely successful successor to a very, very successful initial Switch console. Analysts reckon that that's going to drive seven or eight billion dollars worth of software consumption in its first couple of years. There are a few other hardware releases too. Microsoft launched a handheld Xbox in October last year. And Sony and Valve are said to be working on their own portable devices. Valve is also going to be releasing a console of its own later on this year. So new reasons for people to go out and buy hardware, which in turn will mean new reasons to buy more.

[Jason Palmer]

Software. You're talking about changes on the demand side, but what about changes going on on the supply side in particular with AI, which we know to be excellent at coding at the.

[Tom Wainwright]

Moment? Yeah, I think a lot of people in the games business are optimistic about the impact of AI when it comes to reducing their costs, because making a video game is unbelievably labor intensive. We've heard a lot about how it could change Hollywood, but the average AAA Video game that's the kind of highest quality video game, is even more expensive and takes even longer to make than a lot of Hollywood movies do. If you look at the new Grand Theft Auto game, people reckon that the budget for that game could be over a billion dollars and it's been in development for more than a decade. So anything that can reduce the time spent and the money spent making these games is going to be a huge help. And developers, I think, hope that AI could help them to do that. They also hope that AI could introduce new kinds of gaming experiences. And there have been some tentative experiments here. Fortnite, for example, released a Darth Vader character that can talk to gamers. But I think people are being a little bit cautious there because those technologies do come with risks. And the Darth Vader example actually is a good one because a lot of people immediately started tempting Darth Vader into saying all kinds of highly inappropriate things. And for Disney, which owns the rights to a character like that, it's extremely worrying to see clips on the Internet of their very, very valuable property behaving in this very family, unfriendly.

[Jason Palmer]

Way. Speak.

[Shashank Joshi]

Plainly.

[Jason Palmer]

Invincible. What is this.

[Tom Wainwright]

Hawk? I think when it comes to the new experiences, people think there's a lot of potential, but we're yet to really see quite how that could be realized without risking these valuable.

[Jason Palmer]

Properties. Notwithstanding that, though, you're describing a scenario in which it seems likely the games industry is going to get out of its slump in 2026 with, I guess, some help from Grand Theft.

[Tom Wainwright]

Auto. I think it will start growing a little bit faster. I mean, we're not going to be back to the glory days of a decade ago, but it's going to grow faster this year than it did last. And I think another thing people are interested in is gaming's expansion into the broader cultural universe. In particular, in Hollywood, it seems that gaming is the new intellectual property of choice. People seem to have had enough of superhero movies, and gaming movies now seem to be the new hot thing. Last year the Minecraft movie was one of the highest grossing films of the year. And this year we're going to see more of that kind of thing. There's going to be a new Street Fighter film. There's going to be a sequel to the Super Mario Brothers movie later this year. And other films are in the works, like a film adaptation of the Legend of Zelda, one of Call of Duty. So there's more and more going on there. And at the same time, there are more in person ways to experience gaming too. So Nintendo's been opening up these theme parks. It's due to open another one shortly in Singapore. There are going to be in person Minecraft attractions coming later this year or next, we're told. And in Riyadh this year in Saudi Arabia, there's going to be the first ever esports Nations Cup. So you can go and watch people playing video games competitively there. So I think gamers who want a break from screen time will have even more ways than usual to pursue their hobby in real life away from the.

[Jason Palmer]

Screen. Tom, thanks very much for your.

[Tom Wainwright]

Time. Thank.

[Jason Palmer]

You. That's all for this episode of the Intelligence. We'll see you back here.