Edward Carr (3:18)

I believe that's right, yes. Except it was more complicated than that, as it always is with Donald Trump, because in the same bre he also said that they were winning the war. It was almost complete. We're going to see this thing through. We're going to do a fantastic job here. So I don't think he's completely collapsed the ambiguity about how far this war goes. What he's done is sent investors a signal that he will not wreck everything. And the relief goes beyond the oil markets it's really noticeable how in Asia, where stock markets had had a terrible day on Monday have recovered with Koreas up about when I last looked about, up about 5% and Japan was up 2.6. And the S and P reacted in America very well to Trump's remarks. So the sense that this was spreading out of oil into the economy is sort of reflected in those improvements. It's quite interesting to compare how Trump has operated last night over the oil markets with his response to market pressure over tariffs. If you remember last April after Liberation Day, the markets reacted extraordinarily badly and Trump was quite quick to to show that he was going to backtrack here and make deals there and back off, which gave rise to the nickname of Taco. Trump always chickens out. I think this is somewhat different. He's constrained. One is because Iran has a say in this war too. And although I don't think Iran would want to fight on in any sense in a major way after America decided to stop, it could fire sporadic rockets prolonging the damage in the oil markets. And the other is that there are real things going on here. There are real oil fields that are beginning to be shut down. There is a real LNG facility in Qatar which has shut down and takes time to restart. And there are real shadows hanging over this infrastructure now that Iran has shown it's willing to attack it if it has to. Those things don't just sort of go up in a puff of rhetorical smoke when Trump tries to change direction.

Rosie Blore (5:18)

So on the narrow goal of oil prices, we have actually seen a fall since Trump's comments. Is that enough?

Edward Carr (5:26)

It's a dramatic fall. It's gone down to about $90 a barrel just as I came in to talk to you early this morning in London. So it's now pretty much exactly halfway between the pre war price and the peak price. And from that I take that the price is incredibly sensitive to what happens next in the war. Trump has tried to talk down the price, but there are projections from Goldman Sachs overnight that if 15 million barrels of oil a day kept out off the market of Gulf oil, that's about three quarters of what the Gulf exports. If that happens for 30 days, they see oil prices at the end of the year about 76. If it's for 60 days, they see oil prices at 93. And if the war stops pretty quickly, they see oil prices in the mid-60s. The numbers don't matter as much as the variation of the numbers. And it tells you that the oil price is very, very sensitive to what's happening now. And this probably won't be Trump's last attempt to try and talk the price down.

Rosie Blore (6:28)

It's pretty clear from what you're saying, Ed, that you don't expect the war to end soon, then?

Edward Carr (6:33)

Well, I think there's a trade off. A trade off that Trump tried to evade yesterday by saying he could have it all in standard Trumpian fashion, but you could both have a fantastic economy and also get your war aims. But I think what those Goldman numbers tell you, there's a real trade off between pursuing this war and keeping oil prices low. And the question to me is, what does the Trump administration want? How insistent is it that it gets a compliant Iranian regime in place? And how much does it want to be able to really set back the Iranian nuclear program on the first of those, if you don't have a compliant Iranian regime? This war has broken and set a number of precedents, and the most important of those is that Iran has attacked oil infrastructure of its neighbors. Well, with a hostile regime and with the threat of a nuclear program, that premium, that sense that that infrastructure, which was thought to be safe, is now a target. And if there has to be another war to stop a hostile Iranian regime from pursuing a nuclear program yet again, in the hope that becoming North Korea makes it safe, all that infrastructure becomes a potential target. So there is a change of state in the Gulf. So if Trump really wants to stop that, he has to have a compliant regime. But how long does the war have to go on in order that Moshtaba Khamenei, who has just been named the Supreme Leader and is very hostile to the United States and has seen his father assassinated by the United States and Israel. How do you ensure that? And then on the nuclear side, remember, there's still something like over 400 kg of highly enriched uranium somewhere in Iran underground at nuclear sites where it was buried. Israel and the United States have eyes on that. But for as long as that material remains, someone sometime can dig it out and it's a head start to, what, 10 or 12 nuclear bombs.

Rosie Blore (8:30)

Leaving the war goals aside, if the US decided right, it wants out, could it pull out?

Edward Carr (8:38)

Yes, I think it could. I think it could. It's done a lot of damage. It set back the regime. But the thing is, if it does stop very soon, then I think the chances that a very hostile regime remains in place with the possibility of laying its hands on highly enriched uranium in the future, that remains. So I do think that there is a tension between pursuing these war aims to their end as America sets them out and ensuring that oil prices don't get very high. And I think that's the tension that Trump was evading last night.

Rosie Blore (9:14)

And if the US Was to stage a prompt exit, where would that leave Israel?

Edward Carr (9:21)

Well, I think Israel would have no choice but to go along with Trump's decision. Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, has an election fairly soon, and he would much rather to go into that having comprehensively defeated Iran. But I don't think he has an enormous choice. I don't think he can really defy Trump on this. So I think he would reluctantly have to go along with it.

Rosie Blore (9:43)

And where would an exit leave Iran?

Edward Carr (9:46)

Well, Iran has suffered quite extraordinary damage. Its economy was already in huge trouble, and you shouldn't underestimate the extent of that. But the country is still functioning. Our correspondents have told us the streets are still being cleaned. There are still groceries on the shelves. Before Ali Khamenei was killed at the beginning of the war, he devolved command and control out to the regions so that commanders could continue. But there's still a certain amount of central control, however weakened that is. And for this regime, I think the mere fact of survival is a kind of victory in itself.

Rosie Blore (10:25)

Ed, thank you very much.

Edward Carr (10:26)

Always a pleasure, Rosie.

Rosie Blore (10:38)

The war in Iran should never have happened and benefits no one. That statement was made by Wang Yi, China's foreign minister, on Sunday, over a week after America and Israel launched their joint operation. Some years ago, China looked like it was wrangling to become a mediator in the Middle East, a new role for an emerging power. Yet its recent coverage of Iran reveals a broader truth. The Chinese Communist Party's cold calculus about how to present other autocratic regimes and a reflection of its own role in the region.

Simon Rabinovich (11:13)

The big thing is that China has vast economic and especially energy interests in the Middle East. It gets nearly half of its oil, about a third of its gas from the Middle East. Much of that passes through the Strait of Hormuz, which obviously has been closed because of the current conflict.

Rosie Blore (11:30)

Simon Rabinovich is our Beijing bureau chief and Cha Guang columnist.

Simon Rabinovich (11:35)

Beyond that, though, there had been a time where people thought that China was beginning to be much more of a diplomatic power in the Middle East. It had helped to bring a Iran and Saudi Arabia together three years ago to restore their official ties. I think what we've seen last couple of years, but especially with the war in Iran, is that actually, although China is an economic power in the Middle east, it really is a political Weakling. It just, it's not that involved and it does not want to get that involved.

Rosie Blore (12:04)

Simon, the Iran conflict is the biggest story in the world right now. How has China responded?

Simon Rabinovich (12:11)

China has denounced America's actions and Israel's actions. They've called for restraint, they've called for a restoration of peace and stability for countries, not interfering in others sovereign affairs. But most strikingly, beyond rhetoric, it has not done much of anything. It has stayed on the sidelines. For several years people had been looking at the Chinese Iranian relationship as potentially some kind of new access in global politics. But I think what we've seen in the last week is that it really is not that it's similar in a way to what we saw in January when American troops snatched Nicolas Maduro from Venezuela. People thought, well, Venezuela was a close partner of China's, would China do anything? And it stayed on the sidelines there. Once again, here with Iran, it has stayed on the sidelines. This is despite the fact that both countries were deemed to be close Chinese partners, despite the fact that China relied on both of them for a substantial amount of its oil imports and despite the fact that in both cases I think China viewed them not as ideological allies but as useful thorns in America's side with their proxies targeting America and American allies around the world and especially in the Middle East.

Rosie Blore (13:23)

Simon, as you say, China had been trying to market itself as something of a power broker in the Middle East. So why has it been so passive now?

Simon Rabinovich (13:33)

Well, I think China uses this kind of partnership talk with a lot of countries, not just with Iran and Venezuela. And as a general rule China does not view itself in the same way as America as a country with lots of foreign entanglements. So it might describe countries as partners, but they're not American style allies. And then I think if you get into the specifics of Iran, you actually come away with the conclusion that Iran matters a lot less to China than many people had presumed. There's a big asymmetry between China and Iran. Iran depends on China. China was buying more than 80% of its crude exports, but for China, Iran was supplying somewh about a tenth of its crude. I think one of the things that we're going to see now is that as it gets more difficult to get crude out of Iran or from other parts of the Middle East, China will turn more heavily towards Russia. Over the years, China has sold Iran vital technology, including digital surveillance tools. But actually, despite promising a lot of investment into Iran, over the years it's delivered relatively little and in fact, China has grown quite wary of Iran's violent outbursts, of its unpredictability over the years. China, in fact, has built up stronger relationships with countries that are Iranian rivals, with Saudi Arabia, with the uae. So I think for all those reasons, Iran, never mind not being a Chinese ally, it wasn't as close of a Chinese partner as many people thought that it was.

Rosie Blore (15:01)

And will this take some heat off the US China relationship, do you think so?

Simon Rabinovich (15:08)

I think this is another important element. Historically. You go back to the Iraq war in the early 2000s that was seen by many people as a, an important strategic opportunity for China. America in the early 2000s had begun to pay a bit more attention to China, and then suddenly it was significantly distracted in the Middle east and in Afghanistan for a long period of time, which happened to coincide with a period that China really prospered and became more of a military force. Once again. You look at where things are right now. We've had a period of America becoming more hostile towards China's rise around the world and trying to rally other countries to come into the American camp. And lo and behold, we potentially are on the precipice of America once again getting bogged down in the Middle East. So I don't think China wants to see this war continue. They do still rely on the Middle east extensively for their energy security. But if America does end up being dragged into the quagmire in Iran and beyond, that is not something that will hurt China's interests. It, in fact, would benefit to a certain extent from America once again having to look away from China to other problems that are presenting more clear and present dangers.

Rosie Blore (16:23)

And Simon, do you think there's anything that could drag China into this conflict or is it going to be able to continue its sort of more isolationist stance?

Simon Rabinovich (16:34)

Well, I think the short answer is no. I think the pattern as well that we've seen is that China is very good at staying out of these conflicts when they're occurring. Occurring. What they then do is that after peace is restored, they offer something which America doesn't, which is a really, really big interest and expertise in reconstruction. So we've seen that after America pulled out of Iraq, it was Chinese contractors that came in more aggressively to help to rebuild the country, to help to secure oil contracts. And I would expect something similar in Iran. And China is basically ruthlessly pragmatic. They will work with who ends up being the government in Iran. It's a profoundly unsentimental way to approach foreign affairs, but it's Also relative to the American approach is a much lower cost way of doing things. So I think we can basically expect that kind of playbook from China. The only question is, is this going to be a matter of waiting for a few days, a few weeks, or sometimes significantly longer than that?

Rosie Blore (17:41)

Simon, thank you very much.

Simon Rabinovich (17:42)

Thank you, Rosie.

Rosie Blore (17:46)

And you can hear more on Iran this evening on the Insider, our new video offering when Economist editors will be dissecting the recent events. Anatomy of an Oil Shock will be available later today. You'll need to be a subscriber.

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Avantika Chilcotti (19:23)

So I am in what I think is East Hollywood. There's a road sign that says Santa Monica and it all feels very la.

Avantika Chilcotti (19:31)

Recently, while I was in sunny Southern California, I made a pilgrimage to a supermarket.

Rosie Blore (19:36)

Avantika Chilcotti is our global business writer.

Avantika Chilcotti (19:40)

Even outside, it doesn't feel like a normal, you know, supermarket. There is loads of really nice outdoor seating and just crowds and crowds of people in designer sportswear just sort of hanging out, you know, just having a coffee, having lunch. It looks more like a restaurant so far than a supermarket as far as I can tell.

Avantika Chilcotti (20:04)

That's because this wasn't just any supermarket.

Avantika Chilcotti (20:07)

This is what $650 gets you at Erewhon.

Rosie Blore (20:10)

Spiral foods on the menu at erewhon. $19 Strawberry from erewhon 40 pound breakfast from erewhon.

Simon Rabinovich (20:15)

Erewhon Haul Erewhon Mukbang Erewhon Erewhon.

BetterHelp Ad Voice (20:19)

Erewhon.

Rosie Blore (20:19)

Erewhon erewhon ewhon erewhair 1.

Avantika Chilcotti (20:23)

For those who haven't heard of it, Erewhon is basically a microchain of very, very Posh supermarkets. It's become the grocer of choice for all of the famous, beautiful people who live in and around Los Angeles. Lots of celebrities have been spotted at Erewhon, including Hailey Bieber and the Kardashians. When I was there, I met a 27 year old named Paul who described it as somewhere he wants to be seen because I quote, it says I have taste. And inside the store, you could see why that's the case.

Avantika Chilcotti (20:54)

And this is so incredibly Instagram friendly. There's a deli aisle, but it's not your regular supermarket deli aisle with, you know, some pizza and a couple of burgers. There is apple and farrow salad. There's a kale salad. I mean, it looks a bit like Ottolengi in London. You know, octopus ceviche, farmer's market, roasted vegetable salad.

Avantika Chilcotti (21:19)

Rewind to the beginning. And this is absolutely not how Erewhon began. The store was founded in the 1960s actually on the east coast in Boston by a Japanese couple. They were very into the macrobiotic movement, and they started essentially a humble hippie supermarket where volunteers worked. Its name is actually an anagram for nowhere, and it comes from a utopian novel by Samuel Butler. Since then, Erewhon has been sold to a Californian couple and the vibe has changed totally. These days, Erewhon is a supermarket in as much the same way that Scientology is a book club. Sure, there's reading involved, but that's not really why anyone's there.

Avantika Chilcotti (22:01)

But it's decorated sort of like a. A private member's club rather than a supermarket. There's this blonde wood shelving and, you know, big coffee table books.

Avantika Chilcotti (22:14)

It's a status symbol. In fact, the store has a membership program. It gives you discounts and free smoothies for a fee of a whopping 200 a year.

Avantika Chilcotti (22:25)

I can already see green juices. $12 for a clean green juice. And lots and lots of these shots. A good gut shot or there is a life force, Goldeneye. Mostly struggling to understand what a lot of this stuff is.

Avantika Chilcotti (22:43)

But there is another trend amongst young people that Erewhon's jumped on, and that's wellness. Youngsters seem to want to, or at least appear to want to be healthy at Erewhon. That means at the center of of the supermarket isn't necessarily where you pick up a snack or a coffee. It's actually the wellness aisle.

Avantika Chilcotti (23:03)

Okay, here we go. We've got kind of beauty and vitamins. We've got all kinds of things that I didn't even know about as gas and bloat relief. Loads and loads of gut support, which I do think is pretty trendy right now. Cod liver oil. There's a whole section just jars of what looks like jam, but it's bright blue and purple, purple and yellow and green and it says sea moss gel. I don't know what you use sea moss gel for, but it's full spectrum and mineral rich.

Avantika Chilcotti (23:34)

To me as retail correspondent, Erewhon might be the world's first luxury grocer and there's one defining feature of exclusivity. Though lots of people gawp at Erewhon products on social media, it's only those in and around LA that can visit one of its 10 stores. I spoke to a senior executive and he was pretty clear there are only a few cities in America where it would make sense to open a narrow one. The price point is likely part of the reasoning.

Avantika Chilcotti (24:03)

$21 for a not even full to the top jar of trail mix Choco plant protein that's $44.99. $1 per pound for these pumpkins. $20 for a jar of tomato sauce here, $56 for some flowers 25.50 for turkey Bolognese pizzas 12.50 for a slice. Bright Blue Sea Moss Gel for 32.99

Avantika Chilcotti (24:31)

luxuries for the few, not for the many.

Rosie Blore (24:48)

That's all for this episode of the Intelligence. See you back here tomorrow.