Taking the shine off: albedo and global temperatures

Summary

---

Podcast Summary

Economist Podcasts – "Taking the shine off: albedo and global temperatures"

Date: August 5, 2026
Hosts: Jason Palmer & Rosie Blore
Featured Guest: Oliver Morton, Planetary Affairs Editor

---

Episode Overview

This episode explores the impact of Earth's changing reflectivity—known as albedo—on global temperatures. The core discussion centers on why the planet is absorbing more heat than before, resulting in record ocean temperatures, and the complex interplay between pollution cleanup and unintended climate consequences. Additional segments cover West Africa's rise as a cocaine trafficking hub and the persistence of gender roles in American breadwinning. The episode is rich in data, expert insights, memorable quotes, and examples that bring headline science and social issues into sharp focus.

---

Segment 1: Earth's Reflectivity, Albedo & Global Temperatures

[01:36] – [10:11]

Key Points & Insights

• Record Ocean Temperatures:

  • Ocean surface temperatures between 60°N and 60°S are at record highs for this time of year.
    • Oliver Morton (01:36): “The seas of the world are very hot at the moment.”

• The 'Energy Imbalance' Explained:

  • Earth absorbs solar energy and emits infrared radiation; currently, it's absorbing more than it's releasing.
  • Loss of clouds and shrinking polar ice make the Earth less reflective, meaning more heat is stored.
  • Clean air policies that cut pollutants, especially sulfur, reduce atmospheric particles (aerosols) that previously reflected sunlight.
    • Oliver Morton (02:09): “The Earth is absorbing considerably more heat than it used to be absorbing... The Earth is being made less reflective because we're putting less of particular sorts of pollutant into the atmosphere.”

• Dimming Earth:

  • From space, Earth would appear slightly dimmer today compared to past decades—evidence of reduced reflectivity.
    • Oliver Morton (02:54): “If you were standing outside the earth and looking at it... it would be getting just a little bit dimmer over the decades.”

• Feedback Mechanisms:

  • Clearing of aerosols and reduction in clouds act as positive climate feedbacks, intensifying warming.
    • Oliver Morton (03:22): “It's like climate change feeding on itself... the change just due to the greenhouse gases becomes a change due to greenhouse gases and this new effect of the Earth being less reflective.”

• How Do We Know? Measuring the Imbalance:

  • Satellite measurements (especially NASA’s constellation) offer direct data, but true confidence comes from ocean heat content records. Thousands of Argo floats measure temperature and salinity at various depths.
    • Oliver Morton (05:09): “We have a much better picture of how the temperature of the ocean is different at different depths and how that's changing... the ocean is changing very much in step with the energy imbalance as measured by the satellites.”

• Environmental Irony – Solving One Problem, Causing Another:

  • Efforts to clean up smog (especially sulfur emissions) have increased warming. Example: China’s post-2012 clean air drive, and shipping emission rules from the International Maritime Organization (IMO).
    • Oliver Morton (06:35): “In the actions that followed on from the 2012 Olympics, the amount of sulphur emitted in China has plunged... There’s a measurable effect of reduced reflectivity as a result of those [shipping] rules.”

• What Can Be Done?

  • Two options: reduce greenhouse gases (long-term), or (controversially) increase Earth’s reflectivity directly—geoengineering.
    • The late Paul Crutzen’s ideas on stratospheric aerosols remain provocative but unresolved.
    • Oliver Morton (07:26): "Maybe if you put little particles higher up in the atmosphere, where they last longer, you can get the same cooling effect with fewer particles... people get very hot under the collar about [geoengineering]."

• If Nothing is Done:

  • As aerosol cooling declines, both direct greenhouse warming and feedbacks continue, potentially increasing warming by 10–30% more than models had forecasted for coming decades.
    • Oliver Morton (08:51): “Without any intervention, the effect of aerosols will diminish... some aspects of the way people have measured the feedback effects suggest that they may be a bit stronger than had previously been thought.”

Notable Quotes

• On measuring impact:
  Oliver Morton (05:09):
  “The thing that really convinces people that those [satellite] measurements are true is that we have a completely different set of measurements that back it up... these little Argo floats... record the temperature and the salinity and various other things. And... this means we have a much better picture of how the temperature of the ocean is different at different depths.”

• On global policy blind spots:
  Oliver Morton (06:35):
  “The IMO had no institutional way of thinking about the fact that it was also slightly warming up the Earth... They really didn’t think about that very much.”

• On geoengineering:
  Oliver Morton (07:26):
  “This is an idea that’s normally discussed as solar geoengineering and people get very hot under the collar about it.”

---

Segment 2: West Africa's Role in Global Cocaine Trade

[11:48] – [18:32]

Key Points & Insights

• West Africa as a Cocaine Trafficking Hub

  • Police in Liberia made a $300 million cocaine bust; West Africa sees rapid increase in trafficking as cartels adapt to European law enforcement.
    • Rosie Blore (12:21): “It’s not the first big bust that Liberia or even West Africa has seen this year.”

• Why West Africa? Geopolitics and Policing:

  • Europe's checks on direct South American shipments push traffickers to reroute via Africa.
  • Ports and airports in West Africa are relatively lax, making interception tough.
    • Rosie Blore (13:20): “The traffickers are bulk shipping this cocaine to West Africa where the ports and the airports are much more lax...”

• Scaling Up and Evasion Tactics:

  • Big shipments are repackaged in West Africa.
  • Use of ‘mother vessels’ and ‘go-fast’ boats adds complexity and danger for law enforcement.
    • Paolo Silva, EU Maritime Analysis (14:22): "Every time we let one kilo of cocaine reach West Africa, it corrupts everything. It’s a problem for us. If one of those states become narc states, it will definitely [be a] problem."

• Corruption and Enforcement Gaps:

  • Local officials are underfunded and often compromised; kingpins exploit weak spots.
  • Notable example: Dutch trafficker Jos Lydekkers hiding in Sierra Leone, dodging European justice.
    • Rosie Blore (15:35): "But it's also a story of the limited law enforcement capacity they have there and corruption..."

• Liberian Police Efforts and Limitations:

  • Active investigations, but corruption is rampant, public trust is low.
    • Gregory Coleman, Inspector General, Liberian Police (17:01): “We have state actors that we’ve identified have been working with them. We have officers that are being charged... It’s about dismantling the entire cartel network in Liberia and make it very, very emphatically clear to them that this place is not open for cartel business.”

• Bleak Forecast:

  • Coupled with high profits from European demand, enforcement lags far behind cartel innovation.
    • Rosie Blore (17:41): “They’re paid so little, so they’re easy to pay off. And the governments... are largely powerless against this entire trade... even a multi million dollar bust... can just be rounded off as a cost of doing business.”

Notable Quotes

• On cartel adaptation:
  Paolo Silva (14:22):
  “Every time we let one kilo of cocaine reach West Africa, it corrupts everything.”

• On institutional vulnerability:
  Gregory Coleman (17:01):
  “Public trust is very low and rightfully so. We’re up against a very, very dangerous and powerful cartel at this point in time.”

• On enforcement futility:
  Rosie Blore (17:41):
  “Even when there is the occasional bust, even a multi million dollar bust like the one we saw in Liberia can just be rounded off as a cost of doing business.”

---

Segment 3: America's Scarcity of Female Breadwinners

[18:55] – [24:27]

Key Points & Insights

• The Taylor Swift–Travis Kelce Case Study:

  • Marriage of the pop star and NFL athlete highlights an uncommon dynamic: the woman as primary earner.
    • Doug Dawson (19:06): “This wedding highlights a rare dynamic in modern relationships. Women being the breadwinner.”

• How Rare Is It?

  • Surprisingly, only 30% of American dual-income couples feature wives out-earning their husbands, despite women excelling in education and climbing corporate ladders.
    • Doug Dawson (19:51): “Women outnumber men...at universities. They are climbing the corporate ladder... But... just 30% of wives in America out earn their husbands.”

• Social Attitudes vs. Reality:

  • Surveys suggest most Americans claim to be fine with women as breadwinners, but reporting to authorities reveals discomfort and a persistent double standard.
  • Research shows a big drop in self-reported cases as soon as a woman starts to outearn her partner.
    • Doug Dawson (20:35): “On paper, Americans seem to be really comfortable... But when you dig into the data... you see that they seem to be a lot less comfortable with this concept than they actually claim...there was a big [statistical] drop, suggesting that American couples aren’t that comfortable with this idea of the female breadwinner.”

• Relationship Strain:

  • Couples in which the wife is the higher earner have higher divorce rates; both partners often experience lower satisfaction and higher reported stress.
    • Doug Dawson (23:07): “There’s studies for years showing that divorce is more likely... In America and Sweden and Australia, husbands who are out earned by their wives report poor mental health. And... wives... also report less satisfaction... often responsible not only for earning more money, but... for household duties, childcare, things like that.”

• Culture Lags Economics:

  • Despite broad theoretical support for gender equality, traditional norms and pressures persist in private relationships.

Notable Quotes

• Discomfort with changing norms:
  Doug Dawson (20:35):
  “Instead of seeing this kind of very smooth relationship, there was a big discontinuity, a big drop, suggesting that American couples aren’t that comfortable with this idea of the female breadwinner.”

• On relationship pressures:
  Doug Dawson (23:07):
  “High earning wives are often responsible not only for earning more money, but also then coming home and having to take care of household duties, childcare, things like that.”

• On high-profile marriages:
  Doug Dawson (24:04):
  “Statistically, the outlook doesn’t look as good as if it was more traditional in nature. But...I wish them the best and they look very happy and I’m hopeful for them.”

---

Memorable Moments & Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On climate feedback:
  Oliver Morton (03:22): “Climate change feeding on itself.”
• On geoengineering:
  Oliver Morton (07:26): “People get very hot under the collar about it.”
• On cartels corrupting West Africa:
  Paolo Silva (14:22): “If one of those states becomes a narco state, it will definitely be a problem.”
• On the challenge for law enforcement:
  Gregory Coleman (17:01): “We’re up against a very, very dangerous and powerful cartel at this point in time.”
• On double standards in relationships:
  Doug Dawson (20:35): “American couples aren’t that comfortable with this idea of the female breadwinner.”

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Episode Preview – [01:05 – 01:36]
• Earth’s Changing Albedo & Warming – [01:36 – 10:11]
• West Africa’s Cocaine Trade – [11:48 – 18:32]
• Female Breadwinners in America – [18:55 – 24:27]

---

Tone & Style

The Economist’s tone is thoughtful, cautious, and precise—blending scientific clarity with a touch of dry wit (e.g., references to geoengineering controversies or the Swifties). The discussions are data-rich, focus on practical and sometimes sobering realities, and include a subtle invitation to further analysis in related Economist podcasts.

---

Transcript

[Barclays Brief Host]

Today's markets move fast. Get the insights you need in 10 minutes with the Barclays Brief, a new podcast from Barclays Investment Bank. Through sharp dialogue and scenario based analysis, our leading experts analyze key market themes each week. So whether you're managing a portfolio or leading a business, the Barclays Brief podcast can help you make smarter decisions today. Stay sharp, stay brief. Find Barclays Brief wherever you get your podcasts.

[Back Market / Bill / SoFi Advertiser]

This intelligence podcast is sponsored by Back Market, the leading global marketplace for refurbished tech. When the kids need phones, laptops or tablets for school, buying refurbished tech makes sense for families trying to save money without sacrificing quality. At Backmarket tech costs up to 50% less compared to new. All devices have been professionally refurbished and come with a 1 year warranty and 30 day return policy. Start saving money. Visit backmarket.com or the back Market app to shop now.

[Jason Palmer]

The economist. Hello and welcome to the Intelligence from the Economist. I'm Jason Palmer.

[Rosie Blore]

And I'm Rosie Blore.

[Jason Palmer]

Today on the show, West Africa becomes a global node in the cocaine trademark and America's stubborn scarcity of female breadwinners.

[Oliver Morton]

First up, though, The surface temperature of the oceans between 60 north and 60 south has been at a record for the time of year all through July and almost all through June. And so the seas of the world are very hot at the moment.

[Interviewer (Rosie Blore or Jason Palmer)]

Oliver Morton is our Planetary Affairs Editor.

[Oliver Morton]

The heat in the oceans is the biggest store of heat on the planet, and it's driven by how much heat the planet absorbs from the sun and how much it gives off as infrared radiation. And the Earth is absorbing considerably more heat than it used to be absorbing. Part of this is an effect of global warming. There are fewer clouds, scarcer ice caps, and that means that the Earth absorbs more energy. And then there's a second issue which is that also the Earth is being made less reflective because we're putting less of particular sorts of pollutant into the atmosphere.

[Interviewer (Rosie Blore or Jason Palmer)]

So the Earth's reflecting less energy back. Explain what role that really plays.

[Oliver Morton]

Yeah, that's right. If you were standing outside the earth and looking at it would just at the edges of human capacity to see it would be getting just a little bit dimmer over the decades. And this leads to more sunlight being absorbed. And that means that there's more energy coming into the system. The amount of energy leaving the system is also going up, but not as quickly. And so you get basically a buildup of energy in the system.

[Interviewer (Rosie Blore or Jason Palmer)]

Ollie, we know about global warming. What's new here in what you're talking

[Oliver Morton]

about There are two things going on here. One is you say we know about global warming and we know about it in general. But I think a thing that's not very thoroughly appreciated is that though the warming takes place in the atmosphere of the greenhouse gases to begin with, it then spreads throughout the system in various complicated ways. And one of the ways that it spreads through the system is diminishing the amount of cloud cover. And that adds to the warming further because light that's not reflected from the clouds gets absorbed and adds to the warming. So this is what we call a climate feedback. And it's like climate change feeding on itself. And so the change just due to the greenhouse gases becomes a change due to greenhouse gases and this new effect of the Earth being less reflective. But there's also a second effect which is distinct, which is that humans put little particles into the atmosphere all the time. And this is by and large rather bad for our health. The most important pollutant in this is sulfur. Over the past 20 years, the amount of sulfur in the atmosphere started to peak, and then it started quite quickly to decline. And when sulphur levels decline, the level of little, what they call aerosol particles in the atmosphere also declines. And this means that the Earth again reflects away less sunlight, so absorbs more.

[Interviewer (Rosie Blore or Jason Palmer)]

You're saying that less energy is reflected back?

[Oliver Morton]

Yes, I'm saying that less energy has been reflected back out into space when sunshine hits the Earth. And that means that in general more energy is being absorbed. And the amount of energy absorbed by the earth, what's called the Earth's energy imbalance, has more than doubled in the last 20 years.

[Interviewer (Rosie Blore or Jason Palmer)]

And what impact does that actually have?

[Oliver Morton]

The impact is global warming. It's how global warming works. But it's a more sophisticated but also more fundamental way of seeing the same effect as you see in rising global temperatures.

[Interviewer (Rosie Blore or Jason Palmer)]

And how do we measure how much impact it's having?

[Oliver Morton]

We measure the size of the imbalance. The size of the imbalance is mainly measured from satellites and in particular by a, of instruments on NASA satellites. And that measurement is very, very complicated to make. It's really hard to calibrate satellite measurements. And although they do a brilliant job of it, I think the thing that really convinces people that those measurements are true is that we have a completely different set of measurements that back it up. Which is most of the energy that's absorbed by the Earth is absorbed by the oceans. And since about 2000, the world's had a really rather good, I think, under remarked way of measuring the heat content of the oceans. And this is a set of little boys called Argo. They float along at a certain depth and they change their depth and they record the temperature and the salinity and various other things. And they come up to the surface and they send a message to a satellite saying, here's what this bit of the ocean looks like. And there are thousands of these things doing this on a regular basis. And this means we have a much better picture of how the temperature of the ocean is different at different depths and how that's changing over time. And it turn out that what they call the heat content of the ocean is changing very much in step with the energy imbalance as measured by the satellites.

[Interviewer (Rosie Blore or Jason Palmer)]

So what you're saying is that we tried to deal with one health problem, smog and pollution, and in doing so, we've actually unleashed another problem.

[Oliver Morton]

Different nations have done different things about air pollution, but recently, particularly China has got very serious about it. And in the actions that followed on from the 2012 Olympics, the amount of sulphur emitted in China has plunged quite dramatically. The International Maritime Organization spent a lot of the 2010s planning ways to reduce the amount of sulphur emitted by cargo ships. Those rules came in in 2020. And there's a measurable effect of reduced reflectivity as a result of those rules. The IMO had no institutional way of thinking about the fact that it was also slightly warming up the Earth. I don't think that's in culpable, but I do feel somewhat though, that they should have thought about developing that capacity and they really didn't think about that very much.

[Interviewer (Rosie Blore or Jason Palmer)]

If what we want is for the Earth to reflect more energy back, how can that happen?

[Oliver Morton]

Well, there are two ways. One is we can reduce the amount of greenhouse gas warming. That takes a long time, mostly because it would mean actually not just stopping putting carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, but taking some out. And that is a very, very long term project. The other thing you can do is directly look at making the Earth reflect away a little more sunlight. And this was the insight of a paper by the great Dutch atmospheric chemist Paul Kutzen, one of the first people ever to win a Nobel Prize for environmental work. And Paul wrote a paper in 2006 saying, what if you could keep the cooling effects of having little bits of sulfate in the atmosphere while drastically reducing the health effects? And he said, well, maybe if you put the little particles higher up in the atmosphere, where they last longer, you can get the same cooling effect with fewer particles. And this is an idea that's normally discussed as solar geoengineering and people get very hot under the collar about it. But that was the anatomy of Paul's proposal. And 20 years on we are actually seeing what he warned about, which is as the nations of the world have in various ways saved people's lives by reducing sulphur emissions, they have also contributed. It's not the only cause, but they've contributed to a further warming.

[Interviewer (Rosie Blore or Jason Palmer)]

Ollie, not everyone's a fan of geoengineering. What happens if nothing is done?

[Oliver Morton]

Well, I should add that I'm not a fan of geoengineering. Vanishingly few people are fans of geoengineering. But I should disclose an interest in that. I am a trustee of a charity that works in this sector. If nothing is done along those lines, without any intervention, the effect of aerosols will diminish to a lower level than they are today. There are still places in the world with terrible air pollution problems which will want to get rid of them. So that will happen. And climate change, driven by greenhouse gases, both directly and through feedback mechanisms like a loss of clouds. Those will continue. And some aspects of the way people have measured the feedback effects suggest that they may be a bit stronger than had previously been thought. So some people are saying 10%, 30% more warming in the next few decades than you might otherwise expect. And that will continue until the amount of greenhouse gas in the atmosphere is stabilized. And at the moment, that looks like a world that's considerably warmer than today's in a world in which today's record sea surface temperatures become, you know, just the way it used to be back then.

[Interviewer (Rosie Blore or Jason Palmer)]

And Ollie, if you haven't depressed us enough and people want to hear more about this, where can they hear about it?

[Oliver Morton]

Yes, if I haven't depressed you enough with this already. You can hear more about this on the Babbage podcast.

[Interviewer (Rosie Blore or Jason Palmer)]

Thank you very much.

[Oliver Morton]

Thank you, Ros.

[Back Market / Bill / SoFi Advertiser]

This economist podcast is sponsored by Bill, the intelligent finance platform that helps businesses and accounting firms scale with proven results with AI powered automation. Bill isn't just moving money. They're simplifying financial operations. For nearly half a million customers, Bill has securely processed over a trillion dollars in transactions. That's proven infrastructure. Ready to talk with an expert? Visit bill.comproven and get a $150 gift card as a thank you. That's bill.comproven. terms and conditions apply. See offer page for details.

[SoFi Advertiser]

Today we'll attempt a feat once thought impossible. Overcoming high interest credit card debt. It requires merely one thing. A SOFI personal loan. With it, you could save big on interest charges by consolidating into one low fixed rate monthly payment. Defy high interest debt with a SOFI personal loan. Visit sofi.com stunt to learn more. Loans originated by Sofi Bank NA member FDIC terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891.

[Rosie Blore]

In June, there was a march in Liberia's capital of Monrovia and the government's goal was to make it visible that they're cracking down on drug abuse and the broader trafficking of narcotics throughout the West African country. Just a few weeks ago, police raided a bungalow in between the country's main airport and the capital and they found hundreds of suitcase sized packages of cocaine stacked up to the ceiling. Put together, the entire hall was worth over $300 million.

[Jason Palmer]

Ore Ogunbi is an Africa correspondent for the Economist.

[Rosie Blore]

It's not the first big bust that Liberia or even West Africa has seen this year. In May, a ship was intercepted off the coast of the Western Sahara carrying nearly 31 tons of cocaine, more than the total amount of the drugs seized in West Africa in the whole of 2025.

[Jason Palmer]

So Ori, what's behind this uptick?

[Rosie Blore]

Because of Africa's location as a midpoint between South America, where most of the world's cocaine is produced, and Europe, where a lot of the global market is, it's been a convenient trafficking point for many decades. But in recent years there's been more and more cocaine traffic through this part of the world. But partly because the police in Europe are cracking down on the packages that are coming directly from South America. And so cartels are getting really innovative and circumventing them by coming through West Africa instead. Their shipments are getting harder to intercept and that's becoming a really big problem.

[Jason Palmer]

So how big a problem? Give me a sense of scale here.

[Rosie Blore]

West Africa as a whole has now become one of the biggest hubs for cocaine flows to Europe. So Talking numbers, between 2019 and 2025, the volume of cocaine seized has gone up by 50% each. The size of these shipments have gotten bigger as well. So in 2025, the average haw weighed over 5 tons. That's more than twice the weight of the previous year. The traffickers are bulk shipping this cocaine to West Africa where the ports and the airports are much more lax. Shipments are getting repackaged there and then loaded onto these massive ships called mother vessels. The mother vessels hover around the high seas around North Africa, the Canary Islands, and they're met there by smaller boats, really fast boats called go Fast and In the middle of the high seas, they're transferred from these mother vessels to the gofast and sent straight to Europe, sometimes bypassing the major ports entirely and going to private jetties. So I spoke to Paolo Silva from the EU's Maritime Analysis and Information Centre, which is a multinational enforcement body that's based in Europe and looking into this.

[Paolo Silva]

Every time we let one kilo of cocaine reach West Africa, it corrupts everything. It's a problem for us. If one of those states become anarcho states, it will definitely problem. So in West Africa it's, it's complicated.

[Rosie Blore]

He says that the cartels are sending their shipments to West Africa because there's a crackdown on cargo coming directly from places like Brazil.

[Paolo Silva]

There was a, I think a big shift in, in the past years from Suriname mostly. So we've been seeing vessels getting loaded with cocaine of Suriname. Some of them they head directly to Europe, some of them they go to West Africa, which basically creates two points of departure, which makes it much harder for us in Europe to just check.

[Rosie Blore]

And this crackdown has forced cartels to get a little bit creative with how they move drugs.

[Paolo Silva]

So in the past we used to see more like old fishing, local fishing vessels that went out to collect these drugs. And our organized crime groups are investing more in use of very powerful go fasts which can go very far. And it's very dangerous to intercept them. It's a risk. People are dying from both sides.

[Jason Palmer]

But coming back to the structural reasons why this is happening, it is mostly about the geography.

[Rosie Blore]

So because of how much of the world's cocaine is made in South America, the geography is the most important reason why it is West Africa. But it's also a story of the limited law enforcement capacity they have there and corruption. When it comes to corruption, there's a well known example of with Sierra Leone. So there's a man called Jos Lydekkers and he's a Dutch man. He should be serving a 24 year prison sentence in the Netherlands, but he's hiding out in Sierra Leone. Because of him, shipments coming from Sierra Leone are now under heavier scrutiny in Europe. And so drug kingpins like him and his peers have had to diversify their trafficking routes and they're now sending their cocaine through neighbouring countries like Liberia, but even countries a bit further away that have been seen as relatively stable. And like Ghana.

[Jason Palmer]

And you went to Liberia and spoke to officials about this big shift. What are they saying about what they're doing about it?

[Rosie Blore]

Yes, I did. So at a recent press conference, journalists had lots of questions about the details of the raid. The authorities explained that they had arrested a Spanish Colombian man and a Serbian man. The thing is, Jason, there's lots of fanfare when it comes to these big drug busts. But the things that people are most concerned about is corruption within the authorities

[Jackson Advertiser]

to prevent the country from becoming a major trust system.

[Rosie Blore]

Later on, I spoke to a man called Gregory Coleman and he's the Inspector General of the Liberian Police.

[Gregory Coleman]

Public trust is very low and rightfully so. We're up against a very, very dangerous and powerful cartel at this point in time. We have state actors that we've identified have been working with them. We have officers that are being charged just up to yesterday able to infiltrate and try to bribe a high level officer. It's about dismantling the entire cartel network in Liberia and make it very, very emphatically clear to them that this place is not open for cartel business.

[Jason Palmer]

Clearly this is a tricky battle to fight, especially since some of the bad elements are actually within the fighting system. Do you think they've got what it takes to crimp this back down?

[Rosie Blore]

Unfortunately, I don't think so. They're paid so little, so they're easy to pay off. And the governments we're talking about here are largely powerless against this entire trade. They don't have the kind of high level security tech that it would take to protect not just their ports but their maritime borders way out in the high seas. They don't have the tech that it required to chase after those tiny, super fast, go fast boats. A lot of these countries don't even have sniffer dogs at their airports. We're dealing with really outdated security technology and the cartels are way further ahead. And then you add the layer of corruption, Then you also add the fact that there is so much demand for cocaine in Europe, which means that the profits in this industry are so high. That means that even when there is the occasional bust, even a multi million dollar bust like the one we saw in Liberia can just be rounded off as a cost of doing business.

[Jason Palmer]

Thanks very much for your time, Orey.

[Rosie Blore]

Thanks so much for having me, Jason.

[Doug Dawson]

The marriage of pop star Taylor Swift and NFL star Travis Kelce this summer was dubbed America's Royal Wedding.

[Interviewer (Rosie Blore or Jason Palmer)]

Doug Dawson is a data journalist.

[Doug Dawson]

Fans were quite happy for the streets to be shut down around Madison Square Garden to make way for the nuptials. 1000% excitement. She's never an inconvenience. Taylor can do whatever she wants now. Swift is a billionaire. Kelce, through his NFL Salary, podcasting, and endorsement deals, is only a millionaire. And in 2025, he contributed perhaps a fifth of the Swift Kelce household income. So this wedding highlights a rare dynamic in modern relationships. Women being the breadwinner.

[Interviewer (Rosie Blore or Jason Palmer)]

Is that really so rare, Doug? Women being the breadwinner?

[Doug Dawson]

Yeah, it's surprisingly rare. I expected the numbers to be higher. So women outnumber men by quite a bit at universities. They are climbing the corporate ladder in ever larger numbers. But when you look at relationships and you look at the sort of hard survey data, you'll see that at least in these couples, where both partners earn money, these dual income couples, just 30% of wives in America out earn their husbands. Part of this imbalance reflects differences in occupations and working hours and pay. But a growing body of research suggests it also reflects the preferences of the couples themselves.

[Interviewer (Rosie Blore or Jason Palmer)]

So equality is a bit of a myth.

[Doug Dawson]

I mean, I think when you ask people directly about their opinions on these kinds of things, they're actually quite egalitarian. So there's a survey that is conducted every few years called the World Value Survey. It asks respondents whether the fact that a woman earned more than a man is going to cause problems or not. And when that was posed to Americans a couple Years ago, only 10% said yes. And that was actually one of the lowest shares in any country that was surveyed. So, on paper, Americans seem to be really comfortable with this idea of women in relationships, out earnings, their male partners. But when you dig into the data and you look at the dynamics in actual relationships, you see that they seem to be a lot less comfortable with this concept than they actually claim in these surveys. So there was a study done about a decade ago by an economist at the University of Chicago, and she looked at married couples in America, and she looked at the distribution of couples by how much the wife contributed to the household income. And what you would expect is that this distribution would be the normal distribution, kind of a bell shape. And in fact, what she found was that when you look at the midpoint where the women in the relationship would start to outearn their husbands, there was a big drop. So what that suggested was that American wives are not very comfortable telling the census bureau that they outearned their husband. And the husbands that are surveyed are similarly not comfortable saying that their wives make more money than them. So instead of seeing this kind of very smooth relationship, there was a big discontinuity, a big drop, suggesting that American couples aren't that comfortable with this idea of the female breadwinner.

[Interviewer (Rosie Blore or Jason Palmer)]

Aside from the persistence of double standards. Why would that be?

[Doug Dawson]

So when you look at the research on this subject, you see that while Americans have fairly egalitarian opinions on this, when they're actually in a relationship where there's a female breadwinner, it seems to more often cause problems than with relationships with a male breadwinner. So these traditional norms don't seem to go away and they cause some problems, some strain in relationships.

[Interviewer (Rosie Blore or Jason Palmer)]

What kind of strain?

[Doug Dawson]

There's studies for years showing that divorce is more likely more common in these kinds of relationships. Recent studies in America and Sweden and Australia showing that husbands who are out earned by their wives report poor mental health. And the costs aren't just borne by the husbands. I mean, when you pull the wives in these relationships, they also report less satisfaction with their relationship. And part of this may be due to the fact that high earning wives are often responsible not only for earning more money, but also then coming home and having to take care of household duties, childcare, things like that. So it's kind of understandable that there might be dissatisfaction with the relationship in which you're not only out earning the bulk of the income, you're also doing the bulk of the and what does

[Interviewer (Rosie Blore or Jason Palmer)]

all of this tell us about Taylor Swift's chances of having a happy marriage? Doug?

[Doug Dawson]

Statistically, the outlook doesn't look as good as if it was more traditional in nature. But I'm not gonna speak to Travis and Taylor's relationship. I'll just say I wish them the best and they look very happy and I'm hopeful for them.

[Interviewer (Rosie Blore or Jason Palmer)]

I would say you're scared of the Swifties, aren't you?

[Doug Dawson]

A bit. Yeah.

[Interviewer (Rosie Blore or Jason Palmer)]

Yeah. Doug, thank you very much.

[Doug Dawson]

Thanks Rosie.

[Jason Palmer]

That's all for this episode of the Intelligence. We'll see you back here tomorrow.

[Jackson Advertiser]

This message comes from Jackson. Taxes aren't something you can only think about once a year. With investments planning for tax day is year round. Fortunately, Jackson offers tax efficient products. Visit Jackson.com for more information on how our products can make your tax bill a little bit less painful. Jackson is short for Jackson Financial Inc. Jackson National Life Insurance Co. Lansing, Michigan and Jackson National Life Insurance Co. Of New York Purchase, New York. High interest debt is one of the toughest opponents you'll face unless you power up with a Sofi personal loan. A Sofi personal loan could repackage your bad debt into one loaf of fixed rate monthly payment. It's even got super speed since you could get the funds as soon as the same day you sign. Visit sofi.compower to learn more. That's s o-fi.com P-O-W-E-R loans originated by SoFi Bank NA member FDIC terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891.