To explore critical pedagogy and liberation of the curriculum, in this podcast I interview author and Sufi teacher Shaikh Kabir Helminski. We discuss human condition, subjective human experience, mindfulness, pedagogy of mirroring - (as modelled by Shams and Rumi), and how to read Rumi. Transcript to the talk can be read below

Transcript

Saqib: Welcome, Shaikh Kabir, wonderful to have you. So, a couple of things I wanted to discuss today. The first, conditioning; cultural and religious. Are we as human beings confined to it? Or is there the possibility of liberation from it? And if so, how does that happen?

Shaikh Kabir: Well, we would not be human beings without a certain amount of conditioning. The question is, is the conditioning a positive or negative factor? Also, how aware are we that we are conditioned? So, any spiritual practice that raises our level of consciousness, allowing us to witness ourselves, our thoughts, our emotions, our behaviours, gives us a vantage point on our conditioning. And through that, we can engage in a process of, first, deconditioning. Deconditioning means doing what we can to reduce the negative forms of conditioning that do harm in our relationships that cause fear, cause worry, and all other forms of negativity. So, deconditioning first, and then reconditioning. Reconditioning is to replace all those negative factors by putting in place positive behaviours, positive habits, and positive responses, like, shall we say, generosity, gratitude, forgiveness, and patience. But there is also the possibility of unconditional love. Unconditional love is what will finally free the human being from these, sometimes positive, sometimes negative, factors of conditioning. In our essence, though, we are unconditioned. We are an eternal spirit participating in the Infinite Divine Being of Existence. And it is vitally important for the human being to have some experience of that. And from the experience of that these other levels of conditioning are transformed. We are then freed from the negative aspects of our conditioning and will then begin to manifest those latent attributes of the Divine Reality that are beautiful, loving, and intelligent.

Saqib: Wonderful. So, just to be clear, as human beings, are we limited to a subjective experience, or is there a possibility of objective perception and understanding of reality?

Shaikh Kabir: Well, just to define our terms. If by subjective you mean distorted or limited by a uniquely personal point of view, I would say we should be able to transcend that kind of subjectivity. If by subjectivity you mean a unique viewpoint within this non-dual unified reality, a perspective of an “I” that is the viewer, I believe we will continue to have that kind of subjective experience. But the important question is, is that “I” veiled by negativity, veiled by prejudice, veiled by selfishness, veiled by trauma, etc, etc. So, every soul has the possibility of a uniquely subjective, and yet, pure vantage point. I am reminded of what Ibn Arabi, when essentially asked about this question, said:

“My journey was entirely within myself. But when I came as close as a human being can come to the presence of my Rabb (Lord), I saw that I was nothing but servanthood without a trace of sovereignty.”

So, by servanthood, here, he means every value in the human being, every capacity, every resource, every strength, is lent to us, reflected to us, by the primary agency, That Divine Sovereign, and yet we as unique individual reflections of the Divine Being. According to how much we can polish the mirror of our own heart we can be in that subjective, relatively objective, that vantage point, which is undistorted by the unrealities of prejudice, of selfishness, of trauma, of unnecessary fear, and so forth. Does that make sense?

Saqib: Yes, absolutely. And just to be clear, we are saying, this is not simply the perspective of somebody who’s morally good in character, and who’s not selfish and not greedy etc. But there is an element of Divine Immanence almost, that becomes the eyes by which he or she sees, and so forth, that there is some higher order of perception in this non-dual reality, which allows them to witness the cosmos, or they are far the horizons out with the within. Is that correct?

Shaikh Kabir: Yes, exactly. There’s no way to talk about this whole subject fairly unless we acknowledge that human beings are at different levels of consciousness. And at one level of consciousness, we are imprisoned within our conditioning, we only know, and we think, we are our conditioning. At another level of reality, we begin to witness our conditioning, even if we can’t change it or do much about it. At another level, we have not only witnessed it, but we have in a sense, modelled our conditioning in a positive way. And more and more, as the human consciousness ascends through the levels of consciousness, one begins to be to reflect more and more of a greater intelligence of divine intelligence and presence. And at which point, one’s very individuality seems almost insignificant. And there is a degree of freedom from the self, even while the self is there as a tool, as a manifestation.

Saqib: Currently, there’s a lot of development of mindfulness in western consciousness mainly through Jon Kabat-Zinn and various other sorts of teachings that have developed, especially in the secular world for his stress reduction clinic. Is that the be all and end all of this higher vantage point, or are there further steps and journeys to be made after mindfulness, from the perspective of the Path of Sufism?

Shaikh Kabir: Mindfulness is a useful tool being appreciated more and more within our society on the level of relatively mass consciousness. But how do people understand mindfulness? Some people understand it as just coming into the present moment and a sort of state of being present, meaning our attention is here in the present, we’re not daydreaming, we’re not living in our memories, and yeah, we’re not living in our heads. And so, this is a useful beginning. It is a step toward becoming free of conditioning. And being able to be mindful of our what had previously been unconscious behaviours, unconscious habits of thinking and feeling.

In our teaching, we talk about heartfulness, as a step beyond mindfulness. And heartfulness is when we begin to relate to others and to existence itself. Through this faculty, metaphorically called the ‘heart’, because it’s not the physical heart primarily, but the heart as an instrument for qualitative perception, the heart that knows value. It’s the heart that appreciates relationship with other human beings, other living things, and ultimately with the divine order. So, to awaken heart perception, and to live more and more through the heart, we go far beyond the idea of just being attentive in the present moment. We begin to awaken innate aspects of our humaneness, that are so much deeper, so much richer than merely paying attention in the present moment. It’s much more than just an act of attention. But that act of attention, which is mindfulness, is an essential step. It’s not the only way, but one certainly complementary way to move into that state of heartfulness if we don’t restrict ourselves too narrowly, to the concept of mindfulness. Because while it’s good to move from our daydreams and illusions into the reality of the present moment there are further steps which take us up into a timeless present moment that is vast and beyond time. And beyond mere circumstances and physical reality. So, while mindfulness training is a useful psychological tool it still but keeps us confined within our own individual identity. And does not necessarily bring us into the greater field of identity, and of relationships, which the heart is capable of.

Saqib: So, speaking of relationships, I know in the tradition that you embody and teach, Rumi and Shams had a wonderful dialogue and relationship of mirroring that went beyond the normal teaching relationship of mentor and student. Could you say something about this pedagogy of mirroring? And what happens during this nondidactic mode of teaching, which I believed is called sohbet (spiritual conversation) in the tradition.

Shaikh Kabir: Yes. Rumi and Shams were complimentary. They were not equal in terms of their attributes and qualities. Shams was, in some ways, the more mature one, the one who initiated this transformation in Rumi, but Shams needed Rumi, as much as Rumi needed Shams. Shams said I was like a stagnant pool until I met Rumi and he got me flowing. So, what was modelled in this relationship is a mirroring of two beings who are equalized by love. They’re humbled by love. So, there is no superiority, no inferiority, in this relationship. This very friendship could just as well be called spiritual love, it cannot be described as nor understood through, nor is it erotic or romantic love. It’s the kind of love we all essentially are, in our essence. And so, it is still, potentially, a beautiful model of spiritual relationship, if we human beings could approach each other with that humility, with that non-defensive openness. And if we also open to the dimension of the heart where our each and every word is spoken in presence of the Divine Presence then we would each be lifted up and be mirroring back to each other the Qualities of the Infinite. Mirroring the ‘Qualities of the Infinite’ starts to sound a bit abstract, and it’s n...