Embracing Digital Transformation

Episode Summary:

From Ambiguity to Action: Guiding Organizations Through Digital Transformation
Host: Dr. Darren Pulsipher | Guest: Jason Zimmerman, Founder, Threefold Collective
Release Date: September 9, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the accelerating pace and messy realities of digital transformation in the public sector and beyond, with a special focus on how to move organizations from ambiguity to action. Dr. Darren Pulsipher is joined by Jason Zimmerman of Threefold Collective, who brings behavioral economics and organizational network analysis into the discussion about technology, people, and processes. Together, they explore why so many digital initiatives (especially around AI) fail, the central role of organizational culture and human behavior, and practical pathways for boosting change success rates.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Challenges of Digital Transformation and AI Adoption

• Widespread Failure of AI Projects
  Jason references academic research showing that “80% of AI is failing to really take hold inside organizations.” (00:00, 04:21) Despite substantial hype and investment, most organizations don’t realize the anticipated benefits, due largely to human and organizational factors rather than technology alone.

• Historical Perspective and Acceleration
  Dr. Darren likens today’s environment to previous industrial revolutions and notes, “It seems like it’s accelerated… but it’s not a unique problem for today.” (05:03)

• Ambiguity vs. Uncertainty
  Jason frames the problem not just as uncertainty but ambiguity: “Ambiguity is a lot better word… so descriptive of what’s really going on. And because of that, people are paralyzed.” (06:25) This paralyzing ambiguity around technology’s role and the future is a key source of resistance.

2. People, Process, and the Psychology of Change

• From Economics to Behavior
  Jason describes his journey from economics into consulting and behavior, highlighting, “Once you start injecting the psychology of it, you start realizing that humans aren’t as rational as the mathematics… suggest.” (06:49)

• Loss of Agency Breeds Resistance
  “When individuals lose control, they lose agency… that’s where that resistance really takes place.” (06:49) Overcoming ambiguity is mostly about restoring a sense of agency and reducing fear.

3. Organizational Failure Rates and the Speed of Change

• Historical vs. Current Failure Rates
  Referencing John Kotter’s research, Jason notes: “Thirty years ago, 70% of organizational transformations would fail… recent studies put that number closer to 80%.” (08:55). The increased speed and complexity of technological change are making successful transformations even harder.

• Implementation Is the Bottleneck
  “It wasn’t the strategies themselves… it was the implementation.” (09:17)

4. The Human-AI Partnership: Attitude and Adoption

• Most Organizations Are Replacing Rather Than Partnering
  “Most of the implementations today are about replacing humans, not necessarily partnering with humans—which is a huge mistake.” (12:47)

• There Is Appetite for AI—if Introduced Right
  “Upwards of 40%… want AI to take over some of the more redundant, task-oriented roles.” (12:59) People are open to change if it supports rather than undermines them.

• Culture Eats Strategy for Breakfast
  "If you don't implement this the right way, culture will resist that change." (12:58)

5. A Practical Approach: Organizational Network Analysis

• Moving Beyond Top-Down Change
  Jason advocates Organizational Network Analysis (ONA) for mapping influence, trust, and communication, enabling “change not from the top down, but from the bottom up." (15:54)

• Success Story: 15,000 Person Transformation
  By implementing ONA, a 10-year digital transformation was compressed into 2.5 years:
  “By flipping the script… letting change happen from the bottom up… we accelerated adoption by 4x.” (16:54)

• Mapping Change Agents, Culture Keepers, and 'Assassins'
  “You have found a way of mapping those three… not only who people trust, but also which ones are willing to change…” (21:05)
  Jason’s reports “identify those who can be supportive,” while keeping resistant individuals anonymized, focusing on incentives and positive influence. (21:38)

6. How ONA Works: Passive and Active Analysis

• Passive ONA:
  "Passive is what AI can actually do for us today... looking at interactions: emails, texts...” (17:46)

• Active ONA:
  "Active... allows us to get back into that sentiment side... How do you feel about these individuals in your organization?" (19:06)
  Surveys and direct feedback identify trusted influencers, which can guide change efforts.

• Peer-Led Technology Academies
  Leveraging influential insiders as trainers—“adjunct professors”—builds buy-in and speeds up adoption. (19:06–20:41)

7. Building ‘Change Academies’ and Intrinsic Pull

• Voluntary Engagement and Momentum
  "People can go in and study what they want, when they want... closing off that ambiguity, providing deep understanding.” (29:30)
• Demand Exceeded Supply
  “One of the biggest risks we had… we didn’t have enough capacity inside the academy to meet the demand.” (29:27)
• Electives Drive Ongoing Transformation
  “To this day, that system is still up and running, and people are coming in and taking more advanced classes…” (30:53)

8. Why Haven’t Organizations Used This Before?

• ONA Is a New Field in Practice
  “The simple answer is it's new. Network analysis has been around… but applying it to the human network… it’s only a few years out of academia.” (24:51)

• ONA Is Not Instant
  “Three months with my nonprofit client; with the 15,000-person transformation, well over a year to form the right hypothesis…” (26:27)
  Yet, even accounting for set-up, it yields transformational speed-ups compared to traditional methods.

9. Design Patterns for Change & Takeaways

• It’s a Transferable Pattern
  “It’s a design pattern for organizational change that I can use in any organization… applicable across several domains.” (32:49)

• Becoming an Organization of Ongoing Change
  “It’s almost like an indoctrination to change… you couch it as training, but what you’re training them on is the direction you want them to go.” (31:54)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “80% of AI is failing to really take hold inside organizations… trying to understand exactly what it is, but… it fits in really nicely with the premise of your show.”
  — Jason Zimmerman (00:00, 04:21)

• “Ambiguity is a lot better word… so descriptive of what’s really going on. And because of that, people are paralyzed…”
  — Dr. Darren Pulsipher (06:25)

• “It wasn’t the strategies themselves… it was the implementation.”
  — Jason Zimmerman (09:17)

• “Most of the implementations today are about replacing humans… which is a huge mistake.”
  — Jason Zimmerman (12:47)

• “If you don't implement this the right way, culture will resist that change.”
  — Jason Zimmerman (12:58)

• “You have found a way of mapping [change agents, culture keepers, and assassins]… I think it’s brilliant because now you can start seeing and measuring the impact.”
  — Dr. Darren Pulsipher (21:05, 23:00)

• “When the stakes are high enough… even if it takes more time upfront, it’s worth doing ONA for a 4x acceleration in change.”
  — Paraphrased from Jason Zimmerman (26:27)

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00-04:47 – Intro, current AI adoption failure, and technology acceleration
• 06:25-08:12 – Ambiguity, agency, and human resistance
• 08:55-10:21 – Organizational change failure rates; implementation bottlenecks
• 12:47-13:45 – The problem with replacing vs. partnering with humans in AI projects
• 15:54-17:46 – Organizational Network Analysis explained; passive vs. active methods
• 19:06-21:38 – Using ONA to map change agents and create bottom-up change
• 24:51-26:27 – Why ONA is new to most organizations and practical steps
• 28:12-30:53 – Skunkworks, technology academies, and voluntary transformation programs
• 31:54-32:49 – Embedding change as part of the culture and using design patterns

Actionable Takeaways

• Treat technology and people challenges as intertwined, not separate.
• Don’t just deploy new tech ‘top-down’—leverage organizational network analysis to find bottom-up influencers.
• Build trust through transparency, voluntary learning, and by restoring agency to the workforce.
• Focus on ongoing, continuous training and communication—not a one-off launch.
• Accept that real cultural transformation may take time, but the up-front effort pays off in sustainable, faster, and more widely adopted change.

Find more from Jason Zimmerman:

• ThreefoldCollective.com
• Threefold Outcomes Substack