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Andrea Dunlop and Mike Weber: The Mother Next Door - The Hidden Truth About Munchausen by Proxy & Why Legal Justice is Rare
01:50:11
Why is Munchausen by proxy one of the hardest crimes to prosecute?
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- [00:00]
A
Hello, y'. All. Welcome to the show. This is Emotional Badass, where moxie meets mindful. I'm your host, life coach and psychotherapist Nikki Eisenhower. And on today's episode, I'm interviewing Andrea Dunlop and Mike Weber, authors of the book the Mother Next Door. We're going to discuss Munchausen by Proxy and what it means to move through this issue through the court systems. Thank you for joining our talk. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
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B
Foreign.
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A
I'm very excited to host this interview for all of our audience. I hope that y' all share this episode far and wide. I'm here with Andrea and Mike. Andrea Dunlop is the author of four novels including she Regrets Nothing and Women Are the Fiercest Creatures. She's the host and the creator of Nobody Should Believe Me, an award winning investigative true crime podcast about Munchausen by Proxy. Mike Weber has 40 years. So much time in law enforcement, y'.
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B
All.
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A
40 years of law enforcement experience, including 15 years as a Crimes Against Children investigator. Detective Weber has consulted with numerous police agencies and district attorney's offices nationally on cases of medical child abuse. He was awarded the 2016 NC UCMEC Texas Hero for Children award. I was able to get an advanced copy to do this interview of this book. This is the book the Mother Next Door. It was fantastic and it was really a healing journey for me. I have been a crime victim. I pressed charges against my father for the abuse he perpetrated against me, my siblings and a childhood friend. I've been through the process as a victim. I've seen what happens in court. I felt how it feels. And Mike and Andrea are out there putting this work out into the world. I do believe that we are in a time period where we are going to see more and more and more Munchausen's cases. Munchausen's in and of itself is making myself sick. Munchausen's by proxy is making another that's under my care sick. A child or an elderly person or someone with a dis. Because of the attention seeking online, we are going to see more and more and more of these behaviors. I hope that this episode illuminates how you can be part of the solution. We all are, in a sense, mandatory reporters. If you have that in your heart, it may not be the law in your state. For me, every adult is a mandatory reporter and you may change the life of a child in your sphere when you show up with courage to report onto the show. All right, welcome, welcome. I am so glad to be on. Thank you so much, Mike and Andrea, for coming on and doing this with me.
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B
Thank you so much for having us, Nikki. It's great to be back.
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C
Yes. Thank you, Nikki.
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A
Yay.
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B
Yay.
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A
Yay. So I am so excited about this book. It is the mother next door. You did an amazing job writing this book, Andrea. I will bet everything I have, my bank account, it is going to be a bestseller. And it needs to be. It really, really needs to be. So let's kind of get into it, tell the audience, like, what is the book about? And let's talk about both of your contributions to this piece of work.
- [03:56]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So thank you for the kind wor. First of all, yeah, the book is about, well, it's really a lot about my fantastic co author, Detective Mike Weber. It came out of the two of us meeting almost five years ago now at the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children's Annual conference in San Diego where Mike was one of the speakers at a day long Munchausen by Proxy training that I attended. And I was also there to meet with the Munchausen by Proxy committee that I am now a member of. And it was really, you know, this was also where the idea for my podcast Nobody Should Believe Me came from. It was all out of this very fateful trip to San Diego, you know, and I heard Detective Mike presenting with Sheriff Wayburn, who is the father of a survivor, which is one of the cases that we talk about in the book. And I just thought, you know, at that point I, I, I had the story from my own family's experience with Munchausen by Proxy, and that was the only one that I knew of. And as soon as I started hearing all of these other stories from Mike and from our other colleagues on the committee, I just thought this is the human face of this abuse that people really need to see in order to care about it and to understand what a strong pattern there is in these cases and just understand that it's real and that it much more than most people understand that it happens. And so that was really just a moment of inspiration. And you know, talk about this in the introduction, but really like the minute I met Mike, you know, because I introduced myself and said, you know, I was coming into it with a long history in book publishing and as a novelist myself. And so he said kind of aw shucks, like people are always telling me, and I would love to hear this moment from your perspective too, Mike, because, you know, people are always telling me I should write a book. And I was like, no, you should write a book. Like, you have this really extraordinary career and this incredible, you know, expertise on this subject that just almost nobody else really has expertise in. And. And. And so, lo and behold, here we are five. Five years later with the book in our hands. Yeah.
- [06:20]
C
And from my perspective of that, when I talked to Andrea that day and, you know, I found out who she. Who she was, what. What she had done in the publishing industry and. And. And writing a book, and I said that to her, it became. I don't know if at that moment, Andrea, but pretty soon after that, I'm like, she needs to write this with me. And. But she needs to actually come to that realization. I can't. I can't do that. So Andrea was very helpful. I. I tried to write it myself, and it was very much on this date, I went here. I did this. On this date, I went here and did this because I'm a cop. That's what we do, right? That's how we document. And. And thankfully. Thankfully, I guess probably maybe about four months in.
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B
Yeah, it was a few months. So my. My original idea was like, okay, I'll help, you know, Mike with his book proposal and kind of give him some guidance and introduce him to my agents. And I know I immediately had this idea where I was like, I should just write it with him. But I think about me is that I have a tendency to get excited about my ideas and then just take on a lot and so. And sort of jump. Jump headfirst into things without necessarily thinking about my bandwidth or questions of that nature. So I was trying to sort of not do that. But then, you know, as we were just talking more and I was getting to know Mike, and this was when I was really first starting to put together, you know, the. The idea for the podcast as well. And Mike is a big contributor on the podcast, and, you know, particularly the first two seasons were all his cases. And. And I just thought, oh, this is just like a collaboration that makes so much sense. And so. And so then I just called him up and I said, mike, what do you. What would you think about, you know, if we. If we wrote this book together? And he was excited about that idea, and. Yeah, so here we are. It was pretty. It was pretty early on, I think. Like, I just.
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C
It just made so much sense. I mean. I mean, you bring a lot to the book that. That I don't. You bring a family perspective that I could never bring to the book. And. And that's. So. I think that's so important to the book also.
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B
Yeah. And I also think, you know, something that both Mike and I have been excited about and we're recording this, we're recording this on election day. So maybe top of mind for me today, but you know, is that Mike and I come from pretty different like backgrounds and perspectives and you don't, it feels like increasingly we don't have those opportunities to collaborate with folks that aren't, you know, perfectly ideologically aligned with us. And so I think it's always been appealing to me about our collaboration and this project as a whole where you know, on, on the show and in the book we talk, you know, the people I talk to, the book, it's so many different people from so many different kind of walks of life and really have different takes on things but are so aligned on this issue. And I just think that that's something that also, you know, that I think Mike and I were just also really both excited about from the beginning of like, we can really demonstrate this collaboration which is, you know, an unexpected collaboration. Right. I think like a, you know, it's a, like a, you know. Are you a boomer, Mike? I'm like, I want to call you out your name.
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C
Last year, Last year. Born in, born in 64.
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B
The young, the young boomer. Obviously like, you know, long term law enforcement professional, you know, from, from, you know, originally from a small town in Texas and you know, and then me, a liberal novelist from Seattle. It's like, it's just, it's an unexpected collaboration and I think that that's such a certain strength of it because it just, it's been really such a good reminder to me, you know, that we all get and like, you know, rightly so, but get, get passionate about our beliefs and our politics, but also just remembering that we can find a lot of strength in, in working, working with folks that we just might not have, have expected to find so much alignment with. So I think that was just a really interesting like, oh, we can make a really bold statement and kind of build a big tent with just the strength of that. And we've had so many different people on the show. I mean I, I, I challenge you to find, you know, another show that's recently featured a Republican sheriff and you know, in a trans abolitionist practically in back to back season. So you know, and these are all people that like really respect each other. And so I think that's a, I.
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A
Think that's why it's going to be a bestseller because not only is it interesting, it's needed if we don't get beyond the political head banging, like at each other and vitriol and anger and real, frankly, immaturity that. There's a real immaturity there. Especially when you put the topic of children being safe when people can't transcend their own emotions, their own ideas to come together. I think it really highlights what's really wrong with the country right now in terms of political vitriol. I think that's a whole other reason why this book is going to be a bestseller and why it's needed, because we need our professionals in these systems to frankly, get beyond themselves and get beyond their own attitudes, whatever those attitudes are, to be able to come together and work with people that are different. And if you can't work with people who are different, you have a maturity problem. And if you have a maturity problem, you shouldn't be advocating for kids because you do it properly is where I stand on it.
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C
I completely agree with all of that.
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B
Yep.
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C
And you know, this isn't something. Yeah. This is like Andrea said, this is something that shouldn't be a political issue.
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B
Yeah.
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C
We're talking about protecting children. We're talking about the abuse of children. Both sides should have something. Should be good with this. And when we get into the offender psychological profile of these offenders, they will use these type of things to divide people.
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A
Yes.
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C
Right. So they will use this. Oh, they're only picking on me because I'm a homeschooler. Or they're only picking on me because, you know, on the left, I live in this commune over here. No, but. And, and they'll use that as a way to gather, support and gather people around them and kind of cloud the issue of what it really is. And it's just child abuse.
- [12:39]
A
Yes. And the kids get lost in the cloudiness. This book was incredibly healing for me. I am so appreciative that y' all broach the topics of. I hate saying it like this, but regular old child abuse and Munchausens. Growing up in a home where I was sexually abused, there are a lot of elements that are similar. Like. And. And I'm a believer that I would write the. The. The dsm. I would write it very differently when it comes to personality disorder. I would write it very differently when it comes to child abuse, when it comes to things in the human condition that are more on a continuum to me than. Than in a separate category. Like I had asthma. My mom would blow cigarette smoke in my face. It doesn't quite hit the level of Munchausen's. Right. Of systematic abuse. I didn't get to a point of being in hospice as a child, but there were elements of my mother that she enjoyed making me ill, and then she enjoyed being the mother that took me to the doctor all the time. We were always medicated, always going to the doctor because that proves she's a good mother. So I think there. There are so many shades of gray for people in mental health to understand what's going on, for people in medicine to understand what's going on. And the. It's hard to talk about because we've moved into a world where everything is evidence based, scientifically studied, and the real truth about catching child abuse is it doesn't seem start with some kind of proof that's shoved right in your face. It starts with an intuitive gut feeling of something's off here. And we've done such a job dismissing that human perception, that intuition as nonsense, as bull, as frou frou, as woo woo, as untestable, not real. Particularly because manipulative types are full of it when they say that they have a feeling. But if we're not a manipulative type and we're trying to protect a child in our lives and we're having an uncomfortable feeling, that's a rich piece of information. And if we can't validate that, that's part of why I do a show called Emotional Badass. If we can't validate that we have to honor that aspect of humanity as a key element to being able to be the protectors of children and then drive these things through legal process, then I don't know how we ever get.
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B
On top of it. Yeah, I. First of all, thank you so much for sharing that piece with us, Nikki, and I'm so glad that the book resonated with you in that way. And we hear from a lot of people, you know, that their stories don't necessarily fit squarely into like, you know, a version of Munchausen by proxy abuse that would be criminally prosecutable or. Or they sort of really, the psychological and emotional elements of it resonate with them or, you know, those pieces too. And so there. There certainly is. Is a spectrum. And I think, you know, to your point about the gut feeling, it's funny because it. When you look into these cases and how they play out in court, there are, if you have a good enough defense attorney and, you know, enough money to spend on expert witnesses, there really isn't any evidence that is enough. That is what I have found. You know, I mean, my sister's case, you had all of the sort of gold standard evidence you could ever have. You had video evidence of, you know, of her doing something in the hospital. You had, you know, the medical, like a top expert reviewing the 73,000 pages of medical records. And still they got fixated on, you know, in court. Was it, you know, this type of syringe that she was using or this other type of syringe? Because if it was the second type of syringe, then you did. Didn't see what you thought you saw with her dumping this medication. I mean, just so preposterous, right? So it gets this like, zeroed in forest for the trees when in fact, like two things are, are really true here. I think, number one, you know, yeah, I think that the, the sort of gut feeling and the intuition should never be ignored. And I think when you talk to people and, you know, when Mike does all of his collateral interviews with friends and family and teachers, that is often what they describe, right? They might not have that much familiarity with mental health by proxy abuse that they know something's wrong, they know something's off. They have a very strong feeling that that child is in trouble. And, and then secondly, you know, there is robust scholarship and knowledge with child abuse, you know, with some child abuse professionals about this form of abuse and certainly with, you know, in. To sort of broaden the lens out to child abuse in, in general, which a lot of other forms of child abuse are really coming into question. You know, there's this big quote debate. I say put that in scare quotes because it's not, it shouldn't be a debate, but it, but it unfortunately is about, you know, abusive head trauma, which is a much more, you know, there's much more robust science around that. But, you know, you have child abuse pediatricians who are the most knowledgeable people to evaluate these things. And actually, you know, huge Ms. I would not even say misconception. It's a piece of disinformation about child abuse. Pediatricians is like, oh, they're just trained to look for abuse. Well, actually, no, they're the most knowledgeable to find abuse, but also, also to rule out abuse. So they're the less least likely to make assumptions based on things that you wouldn't want people to make assumptions on about parents, right? Race, class, how they present what they're acting like in the, you know, in the icu, whatever it is, you know, and then that, that's backed up by data. So, so there actually is this robust sort of scholarship and data around child Abuse in general, you know, less so around Munchausen by proxy because it hasn't been as well studied. But nonetheless there is, you know, there, there is that data there and that doesn't necessarily sway people. Right. It's like we, I think we all appreciate in the landscape that we're in that people are not always swayed by data and evidence. But then I, I also think like that that gut feeling and that intuition, that intuition piece is important. And you know, we often say, or you often hear these cases described, you know, even by, I think by medical professionals as like, oh, well, these Munchausen by proxy is so complicated to diagnose. And, and it sort of. It is. And it is. And I know Mike's laughing over here. I would say it's complicated on the level of like, it's work intensive, like, and Mike can kind of speak to the investigation piece. It's a lot of work to get enough evidence to present it in court in terms of like knowing whether or not it's happening. This is not a subtle form of abuse, like especially the cases that ever make it to court. I mean, you're just talking about, it's not one diagnosis, it's not one thing. It's everything, everywhere, all the time. And it really does tend to be where like that, that that offender might have her little cult. And I say her because, you know, 96% female offenders might have her little cult of people, maybe her family members, maybe her spouse, maybe some, you know, folks from her church or just some people that are really sort of bought in that, that will not say that anything's wrong. But by and large, almost everyone else who's been around that child, multiple doctors from, from different hospitals, teachers, social work, you know, will have observed things that are very, very concerning. So yes, it's a, they're complicated cases to put together for court, but it's actually not that complicated to see. And once you've seen it, you kind of can't unsee it. Which is why I get so many messages from people who listen to the show and say I listen to the show. And now I'm looking at my sister in law, my aunt, my. This thing that happened in my family, this mom I know on social media and you know, it's because it just, the pattern is so strong.
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A
So Mike, can you, can, can you add to this, can you talk us through? Because you've had a, you've had a long, long career starting out with child abuse crimes or child sex crimes.
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C
Was it specifically crimes against children? It started I became an investigator in crimes against children at Arlington PD before I retired. And that includes physical abuse, sexual abuse, all forms of child abuse.
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A
Okay, so to tell my audience how you've progressed from doing that work to this and like, what's going on in legal realms within the court system about this as an issue.
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C
Well, first, I will tell anyone that suspects this abuse happening if you suspect, just like with any other form of use of abuse you report. Now, are the agencies tasked with handling this going to do their job? That's not your concern. Especially medical professionals. That's not your concern. If you suspect, you report. And then the other agency should do the investigation. So we're really, really, really behind the eight ball currently on education, both CPS and police. We're working on it.
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B
And.
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C
But as far as how I got into this, just very happenstantially. I retired from Arlington, I went to the DA's office and I worked one case. And then I became the Munch housing by proxy guy. And which tends to happen. You know, there was a CPS investigator. She became the Munchausen by proxy CPS investigator. And we actually worked, I think, my first six criminal cases together. Well, maybe my first five. I don't think she was on the Ybara case. And it's. I dissuade people from that because that CPS investigator left for another job. And, you know, you're also going to burn out your employees. I don't know. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment. I just keep doing it. Not for much longer. But I will tell you, the legal profession is the least educated on this. By that, I mean attorneys and judges. And that's where we see a lot of failure in this system. Even if CPS is removed, if CPS does a proper thing and removes a child, family court judge can turn around and give that child back. Right. CPS attorneys may not even fight them giving the child back because they don't understand it. You know, Andrea said, you know, people say this is hard. I'm going to tell you what I hear when people say this is hard. When I hear them saying is I don't want to do the work or this is too expensive to prosecute or we don't have the money for experts. I hear excuses. That's what I hear. It is hard.
- [22:48]
A
But what I see is. What I see is the psychology at play that people are not even aware of. So I'm no contact from my mother and have been for about 20 years now. And I know from doing that that Psychologically, it is one of the most uncomfortable things that anybody can process. When I've had to say over the years, especially as a much younger woman, no, I'm not in relationship with my mother. You can see that it is such a conflict internally if somebody had a decent mother, a good relationship with their mother, or their mother was just inadequate, and they forgive their mother for her inadequacies. It is as if the idea of this is an unhealthy mother who isn't properly loving or caretaking her children, confronts all of the mothering in all of the human condition and most people are not aware. Talk about a bias. We talk about bias when it comes to race. We talk about bias when it comes to so many things. The bias of I have to look at a mother and think of her as criminal or evil or destructive or everything that a mother is not supposed to be is such a psychological wall that most people cannot and will not allow themselves that awareness. So I think it's a real human psychological problem. And just for the audience, Munchausen's means, if I have Munchausens, I make myself sick to get sympathy, maybe to start a GoFundMe to get money for me to basically make my identity. I'm this sick person and I'm a victim. We've all seen over the last five, 10 years how much being the victim has been pumped out up by politics. So being the victim plus social media is now one of the best things you can be. I mean, that gets you the most attention in the world. That's why Munchausen's by proxy is I'm not making myself sick. I'm making a child or an elderly person, someone that I'm tasked to care for, sick. I expect these Munchausens and Munchausen's by proxy to be growing right now so exponentially, it's a terrifying consideration. I love my factor meals. Their convenience, their ease, their tastiness. And I think you're going to love them too. As my husband travels back and forth to another state to help his mom, I'm ordering boxes of factor to help me stay on task and not be stressed out with having to come up with meals for Juan while I handle everything else in our house. So not only is factor tasty and nutritious and helpful and offer chef prepped meals that are dietitian approved and delivered right to my door, now it's actually really helping me stay grounded and give myself proper nutrition and ease. While we're managing the real life, things that happen when we are grieving and we've lost someone. So eat smart@factormeals.com Emotional 50 off and use code EMOTIONAL50OFF to get 50% off your first box plus free breakfast for a year, y'. All. Do you hear that? That's code EMOTIONAL50OFF@FactorMeals.com for 50% off your first box plus free breakfast for one year. Get delicious ready to eat meals delivered with Factor. This offer is only valid for new Factor customers with the code and qualifying auto renewing subscription purchase. Thank you for supporting the sponsors that support us. We are very grateful to have Air Doctor sponsor this episode, y'. All. I love my Air Doctor Air purifiers. We have one in the bedroom that we run every single night. I cannot express to you how much you can actually walk into the room and feel that the air is clean. Air Doctor is the award winning air purifier that eliminates 99.3 99% of dangerous contaminants like allergens, viruses, smoke, gases, mold spores and more. Head to airdoctorpro.com and use code badass to get up to $300 off today. Air Doctor comes with a 30 day money back guarantee plus a three year warranty. That's an $84 value for free. So if you try it and you don't like it, you can send it back. Air Doctor makes it easy. Easy. Get this exclusive podcast only offer now@airdoctorpro.com a I r D O C T O r p r o.com using promo code Badass.
- [27:28]
C
Yeah, I say, I say all the time with the, you know, with the explosion of social media, you have the attention fix at your fingertips and then you have the ability with the Internet to Google symptoms at your fingertips, to present the doctors. It's the easiest crime to commit and get away with, certainly in my state and I believe the easiest child abuse crime to commit and get away with in the US for sure.
- [27:49]
B
Yep. Yep.
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A
And when I've reported, I have reported over the course of my career on suspected Munchausen by proxy, and I recognize the dilemma for the people working in those systems because they have to choose. Is it the kid that's getting cigarettes put out on him, which is an easy thing to look at, or is it this kid that's what getting too much health care? I mean, it's such an easy thing to dismiss when you're overloaded on top.
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C
If you have a bias against the healthcare industry. Yes, right. I mean, with COVID we've seen, you know, no Matter which side you fall on. Yeah, there's a lot of this country who, they lost a lot of trust in the, in the medical profession with this. And I, I say all the time in trainings, you know, we are challenging the social construct of motherhood on these cases. And it is one of the hardest things to get over with our attorneys, to make them, them understand it. And then, you know, they're looking at risk we reward in trying these cases. And you know, if they think they can't win or are they going to try a case, are they going to do the right thing or are they going to do the easy thing?
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B
Yeah, well.
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A
And people don't know that who haven't been a part of the system in any way. I, I have been saying lately that, you know, what we want in our hearts and in our minds is we want our legal system to do what's healthy, what's right. We actually have a legal system of finding loopholes, and that's as far from healthy as it could possibly be. And when we look at an issue like Munchausen's by proxy, my God, the children that fall through the cracks of that, people also don't realize how much I think statistics play in. I was highly offended going through as a victim, realizing that the detectives were often. The DA's offices were also often excited. I was a statistic. They got to nab a bad guy. And me being able to feel that and feel the immaturity and the people that were tasked with taking care of me through that process, I was hot mad going through that process. I felt incredibly disrespected and re traumatized because I was just a number. And so I think there's, there's a lot that makes this very, very difficult for all involved.
- [30:00]
B
Yeah, well, I'm so sorry that you, that you had that experience, Nikki. And you know, it's. I think like I, I having gotten so deep in this the past couple of years, I, I kind of feel both ways. You definitely see that. And then I think on our side of things, you know, you often see the, you know, the, A couple of cases I'm thinking of top, including my sisters, but the one I'm, you know, deep in for the next season of our show, you know, you also see these cases where the CPS investigators do everything right and the detectives do everything right, and they just, you know, really, really put their heart into these cases and clearly take it seriously and clearly understand the danger this child is in for them to. Only for them to sort of hand it off to the prosecutor DA's office and just have it just dropped. And that person gets their children back and then gets to go and say that they were, quote, exonerated, which, of course that's not what exonerated means, but, you know, and say, oh, I was cleared and I. And all these people are in a conspiracy against me. And I think, like, you know, just to kind of circle back around to the politics of it all and sort of the cultural moment that we're in. And, you know, we use this framing in the book. And I think, again, this is where Mike and I, kind of coming from these different perspectives is really helpful because, you know, both sides get it wrong for their own reasons and get it wrong consistently. Right? And so I've thought a lot about sort of why, yeah, why do people react to these cases the way that they do, you know, and the resistance that they have. And, you know, this even comes, you know, for me, when I'm reaching out to sources and stuff. Like sometimes, you know, there I. We have a lot of listeners and I have great fans and also people that have very strong negative feelings about me. And I think some of that really goes into this sort of conspiracy theory mindset that has really taken hold with this and that interestingly is really shared by both sides. Right. Like, I think, you know, even though we think of the parents rights movement, you know, the. The extremes of it, right. Where you're thinking about kind of the, like, don't say gay bills or book bans or like that kind of thing, where there's this really, really strong resistance to the idea of really, like kind of any state institutions having a say in families. Right. I think that's what, like, at its core, that that's kind of about and where that plays out in. In child abuse and in medical child abuse, Munchausen by proxy, specifically, is this medical kidnapping narrative that really came up in the Kowalski case to it to a high degree. And then, you know, there's a lot of these other cases, including my sisters, that have been included in that reporting. But this is basically the consistency conspiracy theory that medical professionals are separating children from their families, which is of course not done by medical professionals, it's done by the courts, but blamed on the doctors handily. And, you know, this idea that like, innocent parents are bringing their kids to the doctor and because of, you know, misdiagnosis or bad will or egos and the doctors or, you know, sometimes they try and do this real backflip into financial incentives, which is hilarious because child Abuse doctors are some of the like least well paid doctors. And it's like if you want to go into a subspecialty to make medicine like do not choose child abuse. You will make no money. You'll probably do a lot of work that is not, that is not compensated in fact, and some of the hardest work you could ever sign up for. But nonetheless, you know, you have this sort of constellation of, of motivations and it is, I am very comfortable saying this is a full on conspiracy theory. There is no evidence that this has happened. When these cases are presented in the media, it is a string of anecdotes with very deliberate obfuscation about who said what. And when you dig into these cases and read the police reports and read like, oh, they're saying doctors disagreed but they're talking about treating physicians versus doctors that were hired as expert witnesses by the defense. Right? Not exactly a one for one. And it's interesting again because although you would think of this as something that sort of fits maybe squarely into some of the far right conversation, it has been, you know, some of the worst offenders in spreading in the media are people that consider themselves very liberal. People like Mike Hicksonbach from NBC, dn Neri from the New York, from New York magazine that did the big piece that went mega viral about the Kowalski case, you know, Caitlin Keating who, who was the architect of Take Care of Maya. It's very interesting to see people who really identify with, you know, the left side of the spectrum and consider themselves liberally and outwardly are liberal. And these are people that like live in New York City etc, not my kicks and bog, but you know, and very like the rest of their work is very sort of like squarely on the progressive side. And I'm like wow, you are doing like some of the, you know, dirtiest, dirtiest rework in terms of like conspiracy theory, parents rights stuff. And I think there's, there's something that really, I just think that that sort of gets to that fear that you were talking about, right in the end of going up against the institution of motherhood itself and that that just makes people so uncomfortable. And I was talking to, you know, a colleague who's a child abuse pediatrician the other day about this and they, you know, we, we were, I was, I was thinking like why does this, this like I understand the fear, right? I'm a parent, I have a two year old and a six year old. The idea of someone taking your children away under any circumstances is so terrifying. That is a visceral fear that people respond to. And I don't blame people for response, for responding, you know, emotionally to manipulative media stories. Right. That's what, that's how they're designed. You see crying parents, you only hear about from the parents. You know, obviously the kids are not on camera talking. You don't even hear what happen to the kids most of the time, which is where, you know, your sympathies really should be. But, but nonetheless, you know, I, I think what, why it, why it registers for people and I think we went through a similar cultural thing and, you know, Mike was. Watched this happen within his profession. Right. Like a similar sort of cultural reckoning about, about child sex abuse is like, if you have to admit, if you have to accept that someone who seems normal and loving is capable of the most monstrous things you could possibly imagine. I think there's so much about this abuse that is particularly disturbing to people because it's not something that happens in a moment of rage. It's not something that happens because of substance abuse. These other things that are just a little bit more calculated. Yes, it's so calculated. It's long term. It's really, you know, someone doing something to their own child like, that is just so horrific. It's so planned. It's so deliberate and ongoing. And ongoing.
- [36:40]
A
It's different than I got angry and I hit somebody.
- [36:44]
B
Right. I had a bad moment. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think like most parents, like, if we're honest with ourselves, you know, you would never do that. You take a breath. You have hopefully good coping mechanisms. But we understand how people get there, especially if, you know, again, there's, there's sort of these other factors, but I think this form of abuse, it's like if you have to accept that. And that's why we called the book the Mother Next Door. It's like if you have to accept that someone you know in your family, someone that seems like you, that seems normal, that nice mom that you chat with on pickup, that mom that's, you know, not even the nice mom, the mom who seems the most heroic, the most, you know, loving, the one that would go to the ends of the earth for their child's, you know, medical, medical care, if we have to accept that person could be capable of this and that, they don't outwardly seem like a monster. You know, people like to talk about sort of offenders like, oh, they're monsters. And I think that's so unhelpful because the reality is like, they're not this inhuman other thing. They're just human beings who are, who are capable of these kind of things. And that's a scary world to live in. Right. And I think as parents, we want to be able to identify the people who are scary for our children and we want to think that we can do that easily. And so if you can, it's actually more comforting to think. And I think we all like as Americans and I think especially right now, across the board, you know, on both sides, have lost a lot of faith in our institutions and sort of the idea of this huge bureaucratic, uncaring sort of system, however you think of it, whether you think of that as the state or if you think about it as the hospital system and a lot of people have had bad experiences with the hospital system system, it's like, I think it fits somewhere for people and it's actually much less scary than just thinking, oh, this could be a mom that you know well.
- [38:29]
C
And the big system picking on mom sells a lot more papers, sells a lot more. You get a lot more clicks on that than mom, mom abused her child, no matter how great the details are of that abuse. And a lot of times you don't have that in these cases because you don't have anything public doctors can't talk about it, so CPS can't talk about it and the family court record sealed. So the only, the only side out there is what the offender is telling the media.
- [38:55]
B
And however, Mike, that I think that is true and I think it's sort of a like low hanging fruit in a way to just be like, you know, oh, you have this, you know, ready story. But I would challenge my colleagues in the media truly to think about what would, what is more compelling. I mean, a, what's responsible. Right? I mean, number one, I'm working on a paper right now on this, like how should the media be covering these cases? And I mean, I think number one, if you have an offender in any child abuse cases who's coming to you with their story about how they were, you know, how their child was medically kidnapped and how they, you know, were treated unfairly by the system, etc. If that person is not willing to be fully transparent and show you all the family court documents and sign a HIPAA waiver so, so the doctors can talk to you, do not cover that story. If a person's not willing to be fully transparent, you are going to end up with a harmful asymmetrical story where the only narrative that's getting any space is that parent's narrative. And there is a very, very high chance that you are platforming a parent who's an abusive parent as an innocent party. And that's very dangerous. So that's what I would say. But also, like, I think there is this idea that like, oh, this, this plays and people are interested. But I would, I would, I would hold up the show as a proof of concept that actually people are quite interested in the truth about these cases. And so, like, if those people, I would like to see more of my colleagues in the media be willing to like, you know, for heaven's sakes, guys like, you can do a FOIA request. There is information you can find about these cases, especially when there's been a police investigation. So part of it is, you know, and I don't want to be too hard on, on media folks because it's a difficult landscape and so much media, local media especially, has been eviscerated. But like, there, there's, there are stories to unearth. Obviously, right here we are.
- [40:41]
A
So the word that we haven't used yet is a word that I'm very passionate about, manipulation. I have said for many, many years, unless and until this country, in all of the ways I could possibly mean this, starts dealing with manipulation, master manipulation in institutions, between people. If we don't start dealing with that head on and making that the conversation, we're talking around it constantly. The truth is every mother who abuses this way is an absolute master manipulator and a sociopath. It's just that we're taking the sociopathic behavior through mental health and naming it all these different things. But when you boil it all away, all it is is master manipulation. And I get my power from manipulating others and making them think falsehoods. And so when I look at media, I think we're asking one manipulative outlet to report on the manipulations of other abusers. No wonder this is a shit show. No wonder this is a mess. Because we're not dealing with, with manipulation in all the ways we talk around it constantly. But to me, this book is about master manipulation. And you, you can see that. What I loved in the end of the book is you highlighting. Because I was thinking the thoughts and I was like, yay, she's writing it. She's writing it because we have so much like a cheapened male perpetrator acceptance. You know, if a male is upset with me, they're going to be aggressive. Okay? We have, we have ripped that apart in society. We have looked at that every which way it could possibly be looked at, at this point, yes, we know what is toxic about a dysfunctional male. Easy to spot, almost cheap to spot. We're not talking about that. When it comes to women. There's a reason I have still struggled to put out an episode on what I love about women. I know you're a girls gal, I'm a guy's gal. I have put out episodes on what I love about men. It is harder with women because we don't get aggressive when we're dysfunctional. Not typically. There's more aggression in femininity now because of equality. That's part of the downside of what we've pushed for. That equality means females will get more aggressive now.
- [43:01]
B
Yay.
- [43:02]
A
What did we win doing that? I don't know, but that's where we are. But if we don't start dealing with this really, truly and deeply, we have to be able to spot this amongst women. Women are passive aggressive. They will hurt you and stab you while they're smiling. You know, they will look like the ethereal mother while they're poisoning their child. We have to start naming that. I think like on its face. We, between women, we have to start when we feel a manipulative vibe with another woman going, you trying to manipulate me? Was that honest? Because you told me I looked nice, but man, your energy said I look like I caught that. You know, we need to start calling that out. In the female condition, we have to raise daughters that are not allowed to get away with that because women feel their power through verbal. And so if there's dysfunction, that's going to come out of a woman in a dysfunctionally verbal way. And that means she can master, manipulate everybody around her.
- [44:02]
B
Yeah, well, I, these are such good points, Nikki. And yeah, I mean we, we do, I know we do. We've talked about this before. We, we do diverge a bit in our opinions, or I would say not our opinions, our perspectives on it. And I, I think like, I, I think you're right. And I think I, this is something I've thought about a lot because of the sort of female offender question and the female offender versus versus male offender. And you know, I am a, I am a die hard feminist. My feminism is women are human beings and can be just as evil as male human beings. It just looks different. And our wonderful colleague Bea Yorker, who studied this, you know, for decades, she is a, she is a retired psychiatric nurse and also a professor emerita of criminal justice. So she's really got a great perspective on all of this. And she, you Know, always points out that we're just, we're just much worse at recognizing female violence because it looks different. And you're right, it's this sort of, like, I think it is much more on the surface with men and we understand what it looks like. And I think with women it's much more subversive because it has had to be. Right. I mean, women, as you mentioned, you know, are, are much more punished for being outwardly aggressive or even assertive. Right. I mean, you can't sort of get away with it. So it's sort of. I think that's why it ends up in this sort of like passive aggressive thing. And anyone who's ever been a teenage girl, like, knows that that is like a part of it. Right.
- [45:25]
A
And the power of that. Yeah.
- [45:26]
B
And it's like it's winding, right? Yeah, it's very, it's very true, I think, you know, and I, I have had like, I, I am a girl's girl. I love women, but I've also had like most of my worst experiences in my life with women. So it's both, both. And I think it is just, it's just important to look at, you know, men and women are, are different. We are socialized very differently. Yes. Whether you want to say one thing is sort of endemic or, you know, I don't.
- [45:55]
A
Brains are different.
- [45:57]
B
Yeah.
- [45:57]
A
Energy is different.
- [45:59]
B
Yeah. One, I agree with you there. And I also think that, you know, from what we know about this, and I would love to hear also, you know, Mike's perspective on this, but I mean, I, I really think, like, the fact that you have a high percentage of female offenders in this abuse, I don't think it has anything to do with, do with specifically the female brain. I think it has to do it so plugs into our cultural archetypes of what we celebrate women for, which is that, you know, and it's interesting talking to like, you know, I had another of our committee colleagues, Dr. Dr. Kathy Ayub on the show and she's a, she's a psychologist and she was talking about, you know, when men lie, right. When you get a man who's a con artist and sort of doing one of these big fabulous journeys, right. Where they, they tend to lie about like, like, oh, I was a Navy SEAL and like, I'm in the CIA and like these very sort of like the things that men are celebrated for, right. Like the thing that men will get admiration for and they fit in neatly into this or they lie about being a super rich guy, you Know, it's like the things that. That men get attention for. So women, when women lie for their own, again, intrinsic purposes, to get sympathy, to get attention to be seen a certain way, they're gonna lie about the stuff that women get attention for, which is being a good caretaker, being a sort of heroic martyr figure. You know, that mother martyr savior figure is like one of the strongest archetypes across cultures that we have in the humanity, really. And so, you know, it makes sense, like, when you see it that way, it's like, yeah, they're. They're lying about the things that will get them that attention. Because if a woman were to, like, lie about military service and being rich, there's actually quite a lot of blowback for women that are good at those things. So you wouldn't get the same bang for your buck, you know? But if you're lying in a way that like, a. And they sort of. It is also sort of positioning themselves as the least threatening thing, right? It's like, yes, we're not conditioned to see mothers as threatening. Even though I wholeheartedly believe mothers can be as threatening as fathers. Just, again, it looks different. And they sort of. They really position themselves as this most heroic, sympathetic figure. So I do think that, like, our cultural archetypes, and they shift as the culture shifts, but I think it's really, you know, I think that I. To me, that I think that's what it's about.
- [48:14]
A
Well, and when you're asking people to face this, you're really asking them to grieve. Grief is one of. My. Grief is one of my specialties, and grief is one of the things that we will subconsciously push away and not even realize that that's what we're pushing away. Because to admit this, that this is a major problem amongst our feminine side of humanity, means that we grieve that ideal archetype. I'm a believer that all of us have the inner child in us that wants ideals and it wants every mother to be good. Of course it does. And so if I admit, oh, this mother is. Is not good, then I grieve that whole psychological ideal. And I think that's a big player in why you find that people don't want to look at this. They will put up a bl and not. It can't be that bad. No mother would do that. They just can't see it. Because to see it and accept it means you grieve and you let go of that ideal. And there's not one human on this planet that would Tell me they're willing and able and just ready to let go of that ideal.
- [49:14]
B
Yeah. And we want to be able to trust women. I think that's, that's, it's important both for men and women. Right. I think like men want to be able to trust like they're, you know, I think we all have, like, we all have, I think whether we had a good one or a bad one, unfortunately for me, I had a wonderful one that I have like a good relationship with on into adulthood. But I think whether you had a good mother or a bad mother, like, people want to believe, like you said, in that idea. And I think for women, you know, it's interesting where this like, plays, plays on, on these opposite sides of the political spectrum. Right. I think, you know, on, on the right, I think you have this like, very strong ideal of motherhood and of that sort of, of being a sort of sacred. Yeah. Put on a pedestal in a sacred place for women. And like, you know, obviously that can, that can have some, some toxic outgrowths, but there's, there's a lot that sort of like, you know, really sort of beatifies motherhood. And then on, on the left, you have this idea of like being able to trust women and believing in women and, and, and, and sort of, you know, that, that concept which, which again, I, I don't, I don't think there's anything bad about sort of either of those things on their face, but I think that this protects, provides a cover for these offenders on either side. And, and that is what they look for. Right. Like they look for something that's going to provide a cover and it can sort of look like anything and it can look like getting this group invested or getting this other group invested or sort of, you know, whether it's the anti vaxxers or the Innocence Project or whomever, it's like they, they will go or a church. See a lot of churches in, in these. I think, because they do provide that, that structure in that cover. And so it's really, it's such a, it's a very opportunistic thing. And I think, I think that is like again, manipulators and abusers. I mean, I think all abusers are manipulators to a huge degree. Maybe not quite in the sort of pathological way that these abusers are, but you know, they're going to, they're going to be opportunistic. Right. They're going to look for. And I'm very much a believer in terms of, on the gender lines that people will take power, power where they can access power. And one of the only places we give women unchecked power in our society is over the health and well being of children. And so it makes sense that that's where you find your female offenders. And if we lived in a different society, it might look different.
- [51:23]
A
Well, and men are conditioned to take a back seat, to really give that, that reverie to females. So to manage this Munchausen's issue, it also sounds to me like a call to action to fathers and men to go, hey, if you're having that intuitive oh, something is off feeling to not just take a back seat and be able to step in for children, go, wait a minute, something smells funny here for me, like something is, is off. I'm concerned about this and not just sort of give that up because the females know better about the small children. Like to be able to really trust your male instincts to protect too. When did making plans get this complicated?
- [52:09]
B
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- [52:14]
A
Use polls to settle dinner plans, send.
- [52:17]
B
Event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more@WhatsApp.com this episode is brought to you by Amazon. Sometimes the most painful part of getting sick is the getting better part.
- [52:38]
C
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B
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C
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B
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C
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B
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- [53:00]
C
Well, and as far as the manipulation aspect, just in these cases, I mean, it goes far outside many of them, especially your advanced offenders, it goes far outside just the health of their child. Right? I've had, I've had them claim to be nurses, to be PhDs. They almost get a sense out of lying about being more than they are. And in that respect. And as, and as far as the fathers go, yeah, I, I've told Andrea many times, I don't know if these offenders make them that way or if they marry them that way. But most of our dads are really passive. Not all.
- [53:36]
A
It's both. It's, it's chicken and the egg, right, for passive ones. And then they just keep becoming more and more passive as they take more and more power as the woman takes more and more power.
- [53:46]
C
Yeah. And the dads that have stood up, that have tried to do the right thing pretty consistently or treated pretty terribly by family court system and just get knocked down and at some point they. They give up. I've seen it in dads, and, and, you know, I understand it. What are you going to do? You're going to fight the system? You're going to bite the power? How are you going to do this other than kidnapping your child and taking them out of the country? Which I do not advise any father to do. Let me be clear. But, you know, I mean, there's. There's no other. There's no other source. So I think psychologically they just go. I won't say denial, but they go into, you know, protective mode and just say, look, I. I've got to distance myself because this is going to kill me if I don't.
- [54:31]
A
Yeah, I think those are some of the real struggles with. Around us.
- [54:36]
B
Yeah. And the assault on anybody who is, you know, particularly on the child victims, of course, but really anybody else in the orbit of one of these offenders, whether it's a family member that stands out by them, whether it's a spouse, you know, the father of the children, like, it's really hard to overstate how destructive this abuse is to everyone involved because it just decimates families financially because of, you know, medical bills or, you know, just for things they don't need or, you know, court costs or. I mean, that kind of thing. I mean, it just bankrupts families. And. And just the psycho psychological abuse is really to everyone in their lives. Right. Because I think sometimes when people are looking at, you know, the Munchausen behavior, which Nikki did a great job putting that in plain language of that, you know, that's someone who does these behaviors to themselves. And even the people that get caught up in that, you know, in a fake cancer thing or something. I mean, the level of betrayal when someone has pulled you into one of these things is so severe. And so, I mean, I think that the. I have. I have real compassion for the dads in these cases, you know, because they. They have been experiencing that assault as well. And especially if they are, you know, we've had some dads that it's a pretty common dynamic where they. Again, and I do think it's part partly it's their reaction to the assault of living with this person. And part of it is that they choose people that will be good for this role. And so you see, you know, people that are in the Military or dads that travel a lot. Right. Again, with just the opportunity opportunism of it. And I think actually that, you know, one of our dads who. Who came to. We talked about in the first season of the show, George Honeycutt, who is a fantastic advocate for, you know, for. For victims and survivors and is just a great guy, but he. He really came to his senses quicker than I think anybody Mike and I have ever seen. Just really recognize what was happening sort of straight away. And I think part of it is because he was gone. He was on tours of duty in Afghanistan, and he wasn't sort of subject to that gaslighting. And. And people use. Gaslighting has become a really funny term because people use it in this very, like, sort of colloquial way now. And everyone. Everything's gaslighting.
- [56:44]
A
It's like they do like, ptsd.
- [56:46]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like, okay, someone disagreeing with you is not gaslighting, but, you know, that really like gaslighting in this case, which is like a. Which is someone systematically making you doubt your perception of reality. And it is really, really damaging and takes a very long time to recover.
- [57:03]
A
Literally. Crazy making. Yeah, it's crazy that it's really night outside while you see the sun and you question everything to where you don't really know what's real and you can't trust yourself anymore. And when you cr. Can't trust yourself anymore, you dismiss your own intuitive vibe before anybody else even dismisses it.
- [57:22]
B
Yes. Yeah. And it's.
- [57:23]
A
That's the point of gaslighting.
- [57:25]
B
That's the point of it. It's. The point is to get you. Is to deepen, destabilize you and sort of make you vulnerable to the belief system that they're trying to sell you. And so I think that part of the reason George was able to really, you know, come in with that clarity, and part of it's just because of the person he is, but was. Because he was not as subject to that daily stuff. And I think even like Ryan Crawford, who's another dad that we're seeing too, because he wasn't in a relationship with the offender, really was sort of able to see it. But I think for the dads that are, like, living in the home. Home that are subject to this, and, you know, you see so many things, and I can, again, I can test this personally. It's like you do see evidence, right? It's like they. They. They're going to the doctor and they're saying, well, this is what the doctor said and, well, the doctor did the procedure. And like, it's. You really have to understand that, okay, like, if you're. If that person's lying to the doctor, then that's not on the doctor. The doctor's not necessarily co. Signing it. But it can get very confusing. And then, my God, you get an attorney in there and the attorney's making the case. Case. And it's like, I understand why people get confused and lose sight of the truth, especially if they've really been worn down by. By that offender. And nonetheless, I think, like, you know, again, again, to sort of take. What I see is really the. The feminist stance here is that I don't think dads care less about their children than moms, and they're not less capable of being parents. And I think, like, that is a way that until tell. You know, right now, this moment in history. You know, I talk about a lot of friends that are my age. I'm 42. And, you know, a lot of, like, the. The concept of what it means to be a dad has changed so much over the last generation. And so I think, like, I. I'm hopeful that this is something that could get better as we really see, you know, more equal breakdowns in. In parenting. Right? And like, just dads being more used to, you know, being also a person that takes the kid to the doctor. And, you know, and that's not to. That's not to say that, like, however people want to figure out their, you know, their parenting structure in the home is right or wrong. But I think that that is, like, I just think we shouldn't. We shouldn't shortchange dads. And I really, you know, the bravery that we've seen from some of the dads who've stood up for their kids and really put everything on the line, lost so much money, so much damage to their reputation. I mean, just the, like, how nasty these things get in court and seeing.
- [59:47]
A
Probably years of their life.
- [59:48]
B
Oh, inevitably, years. Inevitably. I mean, you take on one of these perpetrators, like, you can see why people are disincentivized to do it.
- [59:56]
C
Andrea, you brought up George, George Honeycutt. And, you know, he helped me recently on a case by talking to a dad and got that dad fully on board. And Nikki, kind of to bring it back, something you mentioned earlier about, you know, kind of feeling used by the system. You know, that dad, Andrea is going to have an episode coming up on her show about this. About this dad, Derek Jones, he was pretty badly treated. I will put by by RDA's office, both the CPS attorneys for our DA's office and the criminal prosecutors for RDA's office and basically had to fight to get his case criminally heard. And we ended up because, be very clear, because of mistakes made by the DA's office, they left this lady out, out on bond after she would had pled guilty and she poisoned her child with Benadryl and to the point of making the child shake. And we're talking she admitted to giving the child four to six Benadryl at a time to a four year old in order to cause her to shake to simulate symptoms of seizure disorder. Did it in the hospital, by the way, confessed to it. Benadryl was in her purse, Benadryl was in the child's blood. So I mean this was not a hard case at all.
- [61:17]
B
Straightforward.
- [61:17]
C
Yeah, very straightforward. And he was just treated terribly by, by, by the system. And if, if he hadn't, I told him go to every court hearing, be in their face, stay on it. And that's what he had to do. And in my county, they, our DA's office, the CPS attorneys are also our DA's attorneys. They never even called me on the case. So they gave him managing conservatorship of the children. But now, now even after she's convicted and given 60 years in prison because of her continued behavior, she would get out on bond. I would. And then find a new boyfriend, poison his kids. I arrested her for bond violation. They didn't, they didn't know. The DA's office didn't ask for a bomb forfeiture hearing to hold her in custody. She got out again. She got another boyfriend, poisoned his kids. After the second time I put her in jail. Finally, finally she's kept there. She was an attractive 33 year old female. And that has power to it in these. Oh yes it does in these circumstances. But he's gonna now have to go, Derek's gonna now gonna have to go and, and pay for attorneys to, to terminate her parental rights. When that should have been done, that should have been done by the CPS attorneys and that is a failure continually in our system and continually in my county which has the most cases of this abuse. And it's a constant struggle that I have fought for 15 years as if.
- [62:47]
A
Society will not accept the reality that sometimes the children should not be with the mother. It's just like we can't. I mean, I have a friend here in Colorado. Same thing like taking the kids to hotel rooms where there's gang Members where you know, and you're wondering if the kids got molested and, and this mother just continues to get custody and, and visitation and with no safety for the kids. And no, nobody's seeming to step in with just a reasonable eye to say that this is not good. You have to do some things to be able to visit these children because you have to be stable, you have to be secure. And once we have certain proofs that mother should never be allowed to be alone with those children ever again.
- [63:34]
B
Yeah, I, I, I really agree with you. And I think that, you know, this case that the, that Mike is talking about is a really like very clear cut example of this. Especially because, you know, this woman while she was out in bond just like, was such a, just a clear serial offender. Was just like, went and was like, all right, well I don't have access to my own kids. I'll go find a new boyfriend and his kids. A new boyfriend and his kids. And, and was just so clearly dangerous. And we just really don't see mothers that way. And I think we have, you know.
- [64:04]
A
And, and, and there's, there's Andrea, not just mothers, it's that we don't see. This is, again, I would write this differently in the dsm. Addiction is one of my specialties. We are not dealing with how addiction actually shows up in the human condition. We like to put the addiction on heroin or on alcohol or on something like gambling. We don't like putting it on child abusers. But find a child abuser that doesn't have an addictive quality. You can't do it. You can't. My abuser had abused his own kids, was through the court system for it before he was allowed to adopt me. They're, we're not even looking at this addictive quality because this type of abuse, think about how it hits the nervous system. The moment that that mother is giving that medication to that child is shooting something up into the iv you get a high from that moment and that is why they will not stop. That is why that woman went on to abuse somebody else's kids. And that will continue until and unless they are actually stopped. And this addictive quality is considered by the legal system as the, the, because across the board these abusers reoffend. It's not like 20% of them do. 40%. It is across the board. I'd make the argument it's 100%, but we don't deal with that in any way.
- [65:27]
B
That's a really astute observation. And yeah, and you're Quite right. I mean, this. This. This abuse in particular. And I think, like, there, you know, I just. Just with the caveat that there. There are some abuse situations. And I think we were talking about those. Those situations where, you know, it's substance abuse or some other. Like, really. And there's. They're sort of like, you know, or if someone, you know, or if, for instance, if a mother is over medicalizing their child because they're suffering from postpartum psychosis, right? Like, that's a condition where it can be treated. Treated, and then, you know, not. Not easy to get a hold of, but certainly. Certainly much easier than this behavior, I think when you're talking about something that's such a compulsive behavior. And that's why I think, you know, when Mike does an investigation, it's so thorough because you're showing, like, how this pattern is so pervasive, it's so ongoing, and it escalates. And you do see that pattern where they have to do more and more extreme things to sort of get that same high, that same feedback. And you can just really, really see it. You. When. When you look at the overall pattern of the case. And I think that it is, you know, from. From my perspective, and I'm not, you know, I don't necessarily on the whole feel like, wild about throwing people in. In prison. I have some, like, feelings about the complications of that. However, I think in the current system we have, that seems to be the best remedy for people that are not safe to be around people and like, be in members of their community. Community. And I think, especially, like, I think in these cases, I always feel tremendous relief if an offender, in the very, very rare instances that offenders are held accountable, mostly because Mike's there, you know, when they're. When they are put in prison until their children come of age, like, that is a huge relief, right? Because I think that we. We need to face and accept as a society that some people are not able to provide a safe home for children. And I think that's a really. That's something I appreciate about, you know, child abuse pediatricians, when they make their recommendations for the court. They're not diagnosing someone with a psychological disorder. They're not offering thoughts on whether that person should be put in jail or not. They are evaluating, can this person provide a safe home for a child, yes or no. And that's the important, important question. And I just. All of my work really stems from the belief that children deserve to be safe in their homes. And like, that is something where I think when certain behavior crosses a line, you know, if you beat a kid's up so bad that they're in the hospital, if you, you know, sexually abuse a child, then like you know, what happens to that person on a punitive level is not something I'm so concerned about. I'm concerned that children are kept safe from them going forward because you have proven yourself to not be a safe person for children. And I think this behavior falls really cleanly into that metric. Right. If you do this like and it's not that I don't have compassion for offenders. I think I have more compassion for offenders than most people because I had one in my family. And it's not that I don't think those people deserve help or compassion. They're still human beings but they're not safe to be around children. And that just seems very obvious to me.
- [68:39]
A
I have a thing about. I, I think society has really messed up the idea and the concept of second chances and some kind of way nice people, kind people think I'm supposed to give infinity chances again and again and again in some kind of way. Like I, I say a lot that dysfunction flip flops things. There seems to be more of a desire to give the mother second chances and third chances and fifth chances than to give the children a chance at getting some years save of safety and security and stability. And that, that to me is such a dysfunctional flip flop of why would we give the, the abuser so many chances when the implication for the children.
- [69:22]
C
CPS.
- [69:23]
A
Yes, their lives.
- [69:25]
C
CPS's mandate in every, in every state that I know of.
- [69:28]
B
Yeah.
- [69:29]
C
Their mandate is family reunification.
- [69:31]
A
Oh yeah.
- [69:31]
B
That's.
- [69:32]
C
That is their mandate. And there are some things that, that should never be allowed in. And that is I feel that the family unification. Because they're not going to monitor, they're not going to do what the guideline says. There's not going to be lifetime monitoring of this person. So I mean be long term monitoring of this person. I don't think family unif or reunification with the offender should ever happen in these cases.
- [69:56]
A
No. And, and in. Except. So this is where I say a family is like a cult. You can leave a cult and if you leave a cult, everybody outside of the cult goes good for you. I'm glad you left that cult. But a family has a stronger cult like mentality. And when you leave a dysfunctional family, nobody really goes yay, good for you. They go really? But that was your mother. You only have one family. But we also Know that the most abuse happens within a family system. So again, a very interesting flip flop of wow, we just put these things up on a pedestal and even in the face of a child getting hurt or murdered, we still let it sit up high on the pedestal.
- [70:38]
B
Yeah, well, Nikki, it's, yeah. And you said that at the top, you know, that you've had that experience with people saying that to you about your, your mother. And I've had that experience with people saying that to me about my sister. And you know, I think that's one of those things that it's like you sort of know a fellow traveler when you see one. Because if someone just goes, oh, yeah, like that sounds like that was the right choice for you, then probably that's something they've come against in their own life or they're in like a profession, like, you know, Mike or I is in where they're facing this all the time. And it's like, yeah, I don't have any questions about people, people that don't speak to their parents. I sort of assume that's for a good reason, like, no, follow it, no notes, no follow up questions. But I think it does it really, like, it upsets people and it certainly, like, you know, before I was talking about the details publicly, which was a long period. Right. I did not turn right around and start like, believe it or not, this podcast was not, was not just like a play for. It wasn't immediately like, wow, I'm, you know, like this thing happened to me and what a, what an opportunity. Which is sort of how, you know, people are sometimes questionable about, about my motives as it's become my job. But there was a long period of my life, you know, almost a decade, where I didn't really talk. I didn't talk about all about publicly and I didn't even really tell that many people in my life, you know, the details of what happened. And you know, when I would, especially if I ran into someone that knew me, you know, in the before times when my sister was all part of my life, or especially someone, someone that knew my sister now if they knew my sister well enough to know, you know, well enough to have been exposed to their behavior, I think that was different. But like, you know, for people that were just like, oh, you don't talk to your sister anymore, and they'd be very upset and they just say things like, well, family's so important and you know, I hope, you know, you can reconcile with her someday. And you know, that's. I do think it upsets people to, to sort of have that the idea of a broken family and, and those of us that have had to go through it or are sort of more close up to some of these situations just understand that like there, there's many situations where that would be the best choice that are not, you know, not as maybe extreme as you are.
- [72:45]
A
In my situation, the sad dilemma for me with people is that I know that people who have conquered some kind of master manipulation in their own life are the ones that can see it. And so when, when people very innocently are like, oh no, like family, great, it's your sister. And what I realize and what is really I think heavy on my heart is oh, this person hasn't had to conquer a master manipulator. So therefore they don't know that they exist everywhere. Yeah, how lovely for them.
- [73:15]
B
Yeah, I mean like that's kind of what we want.
- [73:17]
A
Like I don't want everybody to have.
- [73:20]
B
I know, it's so true. It's so true. I mean, and I, you know, I have a unique situation in, in terms of it being a sibling rather than a parent because I do, you know, certainly these behaviors with my sister and you know, I interviewed my parents for my upcoming season, which I did not think they would ever sit. Want to sit for an interview. And it was a very, very special to be able to sort of talk, talk to them about all of this. And like they certainly talking to them, you know, they see evidence of these behaviors that just go all the way back to when she was a kid. But I did not really become aware of it until we were teenagers and then in our 20s and, and so like I really have a whole period of my life that I remember where before this things got bad and especially before things came to a head, I was like, you know, I was, I was, I was 28 when I became estranged from my sister. So we really had a long time together and had a very, you know, happy, loving family. You know, nice. This very sort of privileged upper middle class childhood. Just like, you know, where I, where I was pretty oblivious to like how bad life could be. And so I actually do remember sort of being that person. I kind of don't recognize her now. I, I kind of can't put myself back in that mindset. But so I, I do sort of see it is a little bit like that matrixy situation of like, oh, like you haven't. I can't even remember which, but which one is it that takes the, that shows you the truth. The red pill. Like it's like, you sort of didn't like. It's sort of like, oh, you sort of see this whole thing. And I think that's really. That's really increased for me. I'm sure, with. Also with you, with your work. Right. It's like you start with your story, and then you see kind of like, I do feel like with my work and with, you know, people that do Mike's job and child abuse. Pediatricians, certainly. It's like everyone else is just kind of like not everyone else, but, like, a lot of other people are just kind of going about their day, like, not understanding the world we live in. And then there's these people that sort of take on a role where you're like, all right, like, I'm gonna sort of peel back the curtain here and just, like, stare into the darkness. And it's a really different perspective. And I. I do sometimes. Yeah, it's like, you. You. Like, sometimes people will be like, oh, I really want to listen to your show, but I, you know, I just had a new baby or my mom just died or something, and I'm like, yeah, don't. Like. Like, probably, like, don't. You don't need to. Like, this is not the time to sort of stare into the abyss, you know?
- [75:43]
C
You know, the biggest stressor for me, I can deal with pretty much anything. I can separate really well. But the biggest stressor with this abuse has come with having to deal with people who should be protecting the children and who aren't. You know, we talk in the book about, you know, yeah, Nick, you'll find this interesting since you brought it up earlier. We talk in the book about a prosecutor that confronted me and told me that my comparisons between this and pedophilia were off base, very off base. And she was offended by it and said I was trying to scare prosecutors. And, you know, that's what we have to deal. I have had to deal with. And those are the things that really cause me the most stress. The job itself, you know, the job. I've always liked the job. I focus on the positives and in what I'm doing, you know, the positive outcome in the case. And I try to focus on those cases don't always succeed. But the biggest stressors come is not. Not from a Not guilty. I can handle that all day long. I. I will respect a jury verdict all day long. It's from never even getting it there because people refuse to do their job. Never even getting it to a jury trial.
- [76:59]
A
I wonder if you're talking about Insight, like insight is a form of intelligence. And you can't teach somebody to have insight. And I don't think the, the public understands that. Doctors, lawyers, detectives, police officers, therapists, nobody's sussing out inside our maturity level at all. And if you don't have insight, you don't have insight. It takes insight to be able to look at things and connect them. That's why we have quotes from people like Einstein that said, I'll botch it, but that say something like intelligence is being able to make however many connections, like being able to make connections when you have insight. To me, that's, it's a no brainer. You absolutely see that incestuous quality to sexual abuse, to, to hurting the very people you're tasked with caring for. And then this is exactly the same thing. It's just minus the sexual element. But it is certainly incestuous. It is certainly within the realm of the very system where abuse is not supposed to happen, where you are supposed to be in your safe container of security and people wishing the very best for you.
- [78:13]
C
You have the compulsiveness, you have the, you know, the manipulation of adults around the child just for a different purpose. I mean, grooming, both grooming, you have grooming as a child gets older for sure. And, and you know, to participate in the abuse. Yeah, it matches up perfectly with sexual abuse. But that just goes to show you how some people will deny and deny and deny, either for a political agenda or because they don't want to do.
- [78:37]
A
The work or because they have it in their family. And you'll never know, but you can tell if you hit somebody's button. I have, I've felt it on podcasts, actually. I've had multiple people go, no, I don't want you to share your story like that. I'm like, really? You sure did a whole lot of me too stuff back in the day. But I can't share my story now. People don't want to hear that. Okay, all right. And I can tell sometimes I just, I hit the button and I'm like, is it you? Is it your brother? Is it your dad? Who is it? Because you don't have that kind of. No, we're just not, we're going to pretend like that's not.
- [79:11]
C
It's so funny. When I was a DA investigator, you know, we would, for a lot of our trials were sexual abuse trials and in jury selection, you know that they would ask and you know, the judge is always like, does anyone need to, if anyone has any sexual abuse History, you know, you can. If you have anything you want to tell me, you can ask to speak with me in private. And. Yeah, we would have people oftentimes just stand up in court and the first time they've ever told anyone they were sexually abused is in front of 60 jury members.
- [79:42]
B
Wow.
- [79:43]
A
It is one of the most underreported, underestimated things. And then the last 20 years with what's happened with online porn and the Internet, child sexual abuse is out of control, and people do not want to deal with that reality, too. And I know, you know, because you're in Texas. I was in Texas for a while. Sex trafficking capital of our country.
- [80:05]
B
Right? Yeah.
- [80:07]
C
Well, I mean, that's not my expertise.
- [80:09]
A
Oh, it's part of mine.
- [80:10]
C
I mean, we're. We're on the border. So there you go.
- [80:14]
A
Border and then ports.
- [80:16]
B
Yeah, that.
- [80:17]
A
That's, that's where it happens. And so people just want to pretend that things are better than they are. What I think about often is how certain professionals are mandatory reporters. Yeah. And I would challenge every adult out there that because you're an adult, you're a mandatory reporter.
- [80:34]
C
Well, in some states, yeah. Yeah.
- [80:36]
B
Florida. In Florida, everyone's a mandatory reporter.
- [80:39]
C
Texas, same way.
- [80:41]
B
Yeah. I don't know that. I don't know how prosecutable it would be if you were.
- [80:44]
A
But that's the right message.
- [80:46]
B
But I think so. And, you know, I. I think like a couple of things I wanted to add to what you're saying. I mean, normally, first of all, on. On the, the concept of reporting and I. It's why I think this really first big important step, you know, with the show, with the book, is awareness. Right. Is teaching people what to look for. What specifically? Sort of like how to even form a way to report. Right. But more than just like, sort of, oh, I. I have a bad feeling that something's wrong. Like being like, oh, there's a specific form of abuse that I can't and report. Like, even getting there is a big first step because I think, you know, and the children are a community project. Right. I think children are. Are the, the responsibility of the community. And I think either parents primarily, of course, but like, and this is a place where we have a lot of ideological difference in this country about, like, where, you know, what should, like, how involved should these other. Other sort of other adults be in your child's life? And as a parent, I feel strongly that I want my. My children to be, you know, I would want other people in the community look out for my Kids. Right. It's not possible to be with your kids all the time. It's not healthy to be with your kids all the time and be the only adults they see.
- [82:02]
A
I agree.
- [82:02]
B
So I think, you know, with that we all need to have our eyes open and, and I would just encourage, you know, especially people who, who work with kids. But if you have kids, you're going to be around a lot of other people to, around a lot of other kids, like to not look the other way. Like kids are depending on you. Kids are very, very vulnerable. They're very. Courage, they need your courage.
- [82:23]
A
Courage.
- [82:24]
B
And like, even if it like something that I, I want to tell people because I think it can be very discouraging to tell people to report this form of abuse. In particular of this is not, not, not only this form of abuse. You certainly hear this in other forms of abuse where so often by the time something gets to courts it's like, oh, there's been eight CPS reports. And this is, you know, it's not again, it's not, it's not subtle. Right. It's not a first time thing. So I know there can be a lot of frustrations through reporting. But what I want to tell people about, you know, is as we're really getting to know, you know, through the nonprofit that I founded now, our colleague Bjorker runs, I'm still on the board of Munchausen and support, which we do support groups for, you know, one of the main projects of that we're working on also like research and training and all these other things. But one of the main things we do there is these peer support groups for survivors for dads who've been through cases for grandparents. We're starting one for doctors because the doctors really go through it in these cases. But is that we have heard from a lot more survivors than. This is not a population that has been studied. Again, one of our colleagues, Dr. Kathy Ayub, who I mentioned earlier on the call from Harvard, is doing a long term study about survivors of Mitchells and by proxy abuse. But that data is not yet available. But this is not a population that's been paid much attention to because people don't recognize this form of abuse enough to sort of recognize that this is a population, period. But as we've gotten to know more of those survivors and heard from them, you know, and I again, like I, the only survivor I know who was actually separated from her abuser is Alyssa Wayburn who was on the show and that is the sheriff's daughter and my cousin was working that case. Other than that, I don't know very many other, you know, a couple of, I guess the, you know, the bar kids and George's kids. But other, other than cases that involved Mike Weber, you know, the other survivors I know were all raised by their abusers. But even then they remember the people who stood up for them. Yes, they remember the people, the doctors who tried, they remember the teachers who tried. You know, we had this, we cover, we, we went with a survivor on, on their journey journey in season four and we went back to their hometown and they sat with like their first grade teacher and you know, their childhood pediatrician and it was just incredibly moving. And that means something to them that, that means that an adult saw them, that they saw what was happening to them and that they thought their life was worth something, they thought that they were worth protecting. And like that is not a small thing. And the other thing that we, we know, even when these cases go badly, which one of the cases as you'll see in the book, does not have the outcome that we would have hoped for even then or you know, in my sister's case, that case did not have the outcome that we would hope for. She got her kids back. And I feel like in both of those cases the interventions of the doctors and the other people who were courageous enough to intervene saved those kids life and that, you know, slowed the abuse down. That intervention put more eyes on the kids. Like those interventions still matter. They can mean the difference between life and death and they are still worth doing. And so even if it is frustrating, even if you are nervous about it, it's never comfortable to report on someone no one likes. I mean this idea that like doctors or anybody else else are out there sort of like looking for abuse to report on, like that's just not, that's not how anybody spends their day. It's very uncomfortable. It's horrible for doctors to have to report abuse because it's also like, you know, if you talk about sort of the ways in which this violates the sort of contract of, of what we think of as motherhood. Right. Like, I mean for doctors it's a whole other contract that they've built their life around which. Yeah, like, like the ability to trust a parent like doctor's entire profession more or less. I mean most things are clinical diagnoses. Like most things are not, you know, blood tests and black and white in doctors. Like doctors are, are by and large you know, very sort of curious, open minded people. And they, you know, they, they have to be able to trust parents are telling them the truth. And when that's violated, that's horrible for them on a whole bunch of levels. And then beyond that, to think that they have been used as a tool to abuse a child, it's horrible. So nobody likes doing this, but it's so, so important, especially in this abuse, because it does have a high death rate.
- [86:40]
A
Yes, yes. And I'm going to add that to what Andrea is saying. It's not just about the ways that we want to save kids in the acute way of, okay, we want CPS involved, we want them removed from the home. Those things that people say to kids, they save lives. In terms of those kids don't commit suicide.
- [86:58]
B
Yeah.
- [86:59]
A
Because they don't have a lot to hold on to. And when someone steps up and out for them, that does give. Like you said, Andrea, this message of you matter, I'm willing to be uncomfortable for you, which means that you matter. You have worth. And that can be the difference between somebody suiciding as a teenager or young adult versus staying here.
- [87:22]
B
Yeah.
- [87:23]
A
My doctor, my family doctor was the first one when I was a teenager to walk in the room when I drove myself and she looked at me and said, you must be adopted. Right. And it was the first person to ever acknowledge something is really wrong in your family. And she didn't know exactly what it was, but she sure knew something was wrong. And I said, what do you mean? And she said, you have such a different energy than your mom and dad. They badger me. They are trying to get meds. They were med shopping and doing that type of, of thing. And she could just tell. And she would have me come after school to see her when I was very, very depressed, just to come to her office as she was closing up her office just to chat with me. She steadied me. I had teachers that did that. You cannot know the weight and power of a moment with a child that's being abused. A moment that will be so inconsequential to you. But maybe the difference between that kid holding on to life or not.
- [88:17]
B
That's really beautiful. Nikki. Thank you so much for, for sharing that. And that, that is so in line with kind of what, what we've heard from survivors and their memories of, of adults that were around them. And, and I just also like an encouraging thing, I think, for people that work with kids of like. Yeah. Even if it's not going to end up in, in a separation. And that kid, you know, like in this sort of ideal thing that that probably is not going to happen. Right. I mean, unfortunately, with the systems we currently have, and it's. It's unlikely, but I think, you know, just reinforcing, like, I would think, you know, if you have someone in your life, if you're working with kids and, you know, you're a teacher, you're coach or, you know, even like a pediatrician or doctor, like, just being a person that gives some different messaging to that kid can be really powerful. So, like, you know, telling that kid that they're capable and telling that kid, you know, being encouraging or just even giving them a break to, like, talk about anything other than their illness. Right. I mean, that's the thing is, like, it was really heartbreaking about this abuse, is that it just decimates someone's identity and it decimates their ability to connect with their own body. So I think being just a voice other than that of just being like, yeah, like what. What else, you know, what else can you talk to that kid about? What are. Yeah.
- [89:42]
A
And like, and to trust the betrayal of your. Poisoning you.
- [89:47]
B
Yeah.
- [89:48]
A
And abusing you, to be able to then go out into the world and trust that random people that you didn't come out of their body are going to love you and take care of you and frankly, treat you right psychologically, that's such a hurdle to get over when your own parent abuses you. So if you have somebody in your life that you think was severely abused, just be. Just be a steady Eddie for them. Be the person that. That if they get upset around you or they show you their anger, that you go, yeah, cool. You got your anger out.
- [90:15]
B
Yeah, I love you.
- [90:16]
A
Like, just be a steady Eddie and hold some space. We are surrounded by so many people that go through hard things. Just like Mike said, that it might take one moment of just even being pulled into a jury because that might be the first moment in that person's life somebody says, hey, did anything happen to you? Do you need to say anything about this? You go all the years of your life with nobody saying that to you until that moment, and that's when it comes up and out. So we are holding space for people constantly, and we don't even know it, who are going through difficult things.
- [90:50]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I think too, like, just as kind of a. Of like, final thought on it vis a vis this abuse. And I think in a. In a bigger context as well. Like, I just really. I encourage people to approach it with openness and curiosity. Right. Like, I think one of the ways in which, you know, the true crime genre can be pretty problematic, and that's like a whole other conversation. But I think. Think, like, the reason that this show has found an audience is because people are very curious about this phenomenon. Right. There's a ton of just interest in why do people do these things. And I don't think it's wrong to be compelled by it or curious about it. And I think that's a good thing because we're all interested in why people. Especially when people do these sort of, like, really, you know, divergent behaviors.
- [91:44]
A
We're all.
- [91:45]
B
We're all curious about that, and I think just be open to learning about it, right. And. And accept that there's a lot of things that society doesn't have a handle on yet or doesn't understand until they do. And so I think folks in the media, you know, in particular, like, just have some curiosity about it. Just ask the questions, really dig in. And honestly, like, I think sometimes people assume about me that because of the lens that I come through, and I never pretend that I don't have the perspective that I do. Right. That's why it was so important to me to. To. To. To talk about what had happened in my family, to sort of disclose that. But, like, I always go in with curiosity. I always go into a case being like, all right, if there's some other explanation for what happened here than abuse, I want to find it. And trust me when I tell you that I would be the person to find it, because I will be the most thorough. I will ask all of those questions.
- [92:37]
C
That's a fact.
- [92:37]
B
Yeah. Thank you, Mike. You know, like, I will do the deepest, deepest deep dive. I will read every. Like, I will talk to anybody who will talk to me. Like, I am so. I am so curious. And I actually, like, I am sort of on a mission to find a false accusation. I have not. Yet. None of our. I think our colleagues have seen one thing that they considered that actually went through the court to the point of a separation, that that was a misdiagnosis of my. There's, like, one case, and it was very, very complicated. But, like, it's really. I would like to find one because I would like to see what that even looks like in one of these cases. So I am the most curious. I am the most open because I want to know everything about this. And so I would just encourage people to not make assumptions. And if you hear about a case where someone is presenting it as a false accusation, ask some questions. And especially if you're a reporter for Heaven's sake, like, ask all the questions. That is literally your job. But I think especially, you know, for. For judges, for legal. And unfortunately, we've seen the least interest. I've seen a lot with. There's been a lot of interest in sort of training and learning more from medical professionals, from folks who work with child abuse, you know, survivors from the. Those organizations, from social workers, from law enforcement. We've seen a ton of internal interest. Not a lot of interest from judges, not a lot of interest from attorneys. So we really need the legal profession to step up here. Not zero. Right. We've. We've had some. And there's some folks on the committee that have that background, but, like, have some curiosity about it. Like, nobody knows everything about everything, so, like, be open to learning about it, because that's the best way that you're going to protect kids.
- [94:21]
A
Do you think the block there is. I don't want to be the lawyer or the judge known for being hard on moms. Like, is that the basic block?
- [94:28]
C
I. I think it's more pragmatic. I think they see these as hard cases to win, and so they just don't. That's been my. I'll put it. That's been my personal experience with it.
- [94:40]
B
Yeah.
- [94:41]
C
Just. It's just easier to say, well, we're just not going to try this. We're just going to dismiss it.
- [94:46]
B
Yeah. I think that's something that, until I was working with Mike and until I really didn't know, you know, again, speaking to, like, me having a very privileged life in general, that I'd never had any interactions with really, the legal system before. Before this. And now I've had. Now I've had several. Mostly on the sort of defamation and lawsuit threats. But, yeah, I mean, before I was really digging into these cases, I had no awareness of the fact that, like, you can have a case where there's really strong evidence and that, you know, the law enforcement has done their job and they've done. And then it just. Just gets passed off to a prosecutor and they're kind of like, you know, thumbs up or thumbs down, and that that decision is just made by people, like, sitting at a desk, you know, looking at things and a lot of times evaluating. Right. I don't think people know that. I think that we have that, like, more faith in our justice system maybe than we should. And just this idea that, like, you know, I was talking to a retired prosecutor who's local the other day about just sort of these cases and why they go wrong, and it's it's really, again, I think it's, you know, I think part of it is I think there probably is some of that thing of, like, people don't want to go against moms in court. I think that that probably could be true. I think the bigger reason is like, there's expense that, you know, to hiring experts and like, these are, you know, more complicated trials, especially if the offender has money and they are able to.
- [96:06]
A
Hire as much precedent.
- [96:08]
B
Right, Right. And nobody wants to set people, legal professionals, a lot of them, you know, don't want to set legal precedent. Precedent. So there isn't much legal precedent in these cases. And then just, you know, is it going to be a W or an L? Right. Like, I think there's just that thing of like prosecutors offices, like, don't often like to go into something unless they think it's a slam dunk. And which again, I think is something that people really do not realize. And these cases are quite complicated in court. They don't. You don't know if the judge is going to know anything or the jury is going to know anything. It's get, you know, there's. You're going to be subpoenaing all these different records and having this doctor say this and that doctor say that. It's very easy to position these cases as doctor versus doctor, even if that is like really not the case or that's not. Oh, you know, that's. That's not the truth of it. So there are a lot of reasons that these just are not juicy. And also, like, there might not be anybody that actually, you know, it's not a case where there might be a lot of political will on, you know, to, to prosecute. Right.
- [97:05]
C
It's like DA's offices are political officers.
- [97:07]
B
Right. Right. So it's like, well, what it's going to be the pressure on us not to just drop this. Right. Like, who's. Where is there going to be an outcry other than from Mike and Andrew if we drop.
- [97:17]
C
Right. The kids, the child is not going to say anything.
- [97:21]
B
Kid's not going to go to the media. In fact, even if the media did talk to the kid, I. E. The Maya Kowalski case, where that father felt just seemingly, absolutely perfectly comfortable to accept exploit the heck out of his children by putting them in the media while they were underage to defend his position as the plaintiff in that case. Right. Suing the hospital after his wife died by suicide. During the investigation, child victims frequently defend their abusers. That is across the board in a case that is part of the manipulation. Anybody who works with these populations understands that. I don't know that the general public does. So, like, you're not going to get an outcry. A lot of times the family members, the spouses, support the abuser. So, like, who's the outcry coming from? Like, literally, who's standing up for that kid?
- [98:06]
C
Well, and Andrea, a great example I have is going back to the Benadryl poisoning case and, and Derrick Jones, when, when Derek first met with the prosecutor, he tried to talk him into a five year deferred probation sentence for that mom. And this is a poisoning case. This is, I mean, and she had also convinced her 11 year old that her 11 year old had epile her whole life and she didn't. She was drugging all of her kids. And that I don't think that particular prosecutor or most know how to evaluate these cases because they haven't seen them. They don't know what they're worth. They don't know how to try them. And I think it scares them. And I think they're gonna make whatever deal they think they can, depending on the prosecutor. Not all of them, but. But if you have someone that's intimidated by this topic, who are this, this amount of evidence that I'm going to give them, because I'm going to give them a ton, the easy way out is to plea it. And even after she did everything she did, when it came down to the sentencing hearing, the prosecution only asked for 20 years, the judge gave her 60. Maybe you don't know how to evaluate these cases properly when that happens.
- [99:21]
B
Well, in my case, you made this point in the book, you know, that. And this was a light bulb moment for me that, you know, and like, again, this is not, not a nefarious thing, just a human thing that like prosecutors are lawyers and they're often going to have, you know, relationships with the defense attorneys in these cases and they're going to listen to those people. And you know, I've seen what the defense attorneys say in these cases. And so that defense attorney is coming in there and saying, like, this is outrageous. You've separated this sick child from their mom. And look, they have these, they were only doing what the doctors told them to do. And it's like, if you don't have a high level of, like, if you don't have an understanding of this abuse, like that's, that's pretty persuasive. And so they're sort of being told like they're getting a lot of like maybe signaling from, from people that they, they, they trust that this case is going to be a disaster in court. Court. So like there's a lot of, you know, they're very disincentivized in like, in a whole bunch of ways I think. Right.
- [100:19]
C
And you know, like, look, we won't experience prosecutor's office being a very inexperienced prosecutor's office really quickly when a bunch of people left during an administration change and our defense bar went from being because, you know, what are prosecutors going to do? They're going to go be defense attorneys and make more money. So then we had all those prosecutors go the fifth and we had a very good defense bar then and we had had very inexperienced prosecutors which still persist to this day. And, and so you have people handling things that they really shouldn't be handling it at the point in their career that they're at, but yet they're tasked with this job. And it's not like I'm dealing with a 15 or 20 year veteran of the DA's office. I'm dealing with someone who has four years, four or five years experience.
- [101:03]
A
Maybe people don't know what they don't know. I think there's something happening culturally too. I think probably my field is in large part to blame. We've had such a swing from so much mental health being stigmatized about 20 years ago to no stigma to compassion. Something has happened that I'm super upset about because it seems like my field has pushed for compassion when it comes to mental health, which somehow has devolved into my compassion. Must mean that you don't have consciousness consequences instead of I have compassion for you and here are all of your consequences. And I, I do think that there are judges, there are DA's offices, there are prosecutors that are playing into this cultural wave of compassion means letting people get away with things instead of no, compassion means that I have compassion, I have empathy for how hard life is and whatever got you to this point to these behaviors, but none of my feelings about you get you out of your consequences. So I think that has to be in play too.
- [102:11]
C
You'll see articles on this abuse where all they talk about is mom's mental health. They don't. The word child abuse never appears in the article. It's all about mom's mental health. And I'm like, why are you focusing on the abuser and not the child?
- [102:25]
A
That's what I mean about the dsm. I don't think we're doing justice separating sociopathy from depression. There's no person on earth that isn't a sociopath that is going to get depressed enough to fully hurt a child. And psychosis is overplayed. Psychosis is not subtle.
- [102:44]
B
Right. And that's. That's actually something that I always like. You know, we talk a lot about the. The sort of the. The. The diagnosis for the psychopathology on the show. And I. I presented actually last week or the week before last at the American Academy of Psychiatry and Law and presented with Dr. Jim Hamilton, who's a fantastic expert who's now at Yale. And, you know, he was talking about. We've talked a lot about the sort of the utility of having a diagnosis for this behavior in the dsm. And, like, what that is, what that's really. Like how that is helpful or not helpful. And I think one of the big ways it's not helpful is that that gets brought up sometimes as, like, a defense in court. And also just. It gets. Yeah, it gets sort of siloed in this thing of, like, oh, well, you have to have, you know, bring in a psychiatrist, do an evaluation and then sit down. Then, okay, they have it or they don't have it, which is just completely not the right way to look at it. And it gets, as you said, Nikki, like, very divorced from the harm that that person is doing to their child. And what he said, which was really a great thing, is, like, I would like to see, like, okay, if this is a diagnosis, right? Because, like, the purpose of the ds, I mean, Nikki would know a lot more about this than I do. But, you know, a big thing it's used for, which I think people don't. Number one, it's not a perfect text. Right. There's a lot of things. Homosexuality used to also be in the dsm. Like, it's not, like. Not everything, is. It, you know, is sort of a diagnosable pathology and sort of like. I think the big questions around the. The psychiatric diagnosis, infectious disorder imposed on another, which is the official name for it in the dsm, is like. Like, okay, how treatable is it? And, like, who is getting diagnosed? This is a diagnostic manual. Who is getting diagnosed with this? Virtually no one, because it's never diagnosed. In the absence of usually, like, a criminal conviction, where someone is then mandated to seek mental health care for this diagnosis. But it's not something that people seek a diagnosis for. Right.
- [104:37]
A
So same for narcissism, same for sociopathy. It's only if they're into the system.
- [104:42]
B
Right, right.
- [104:42]
A
Pedophilia, too.
- [104:43]
B
Absolutely right. It's because you've ended up in the system. And so I think that there's, there's really a lot there. And I think like, really we just need to center like, okay, as a prosecutor, as a doctor, as a social worker, you're not a psychiatrist. Like, don't worry about it. Your job is to determine is this person harming their children? And again, that center, question, question. Is this a person that can provide a safe home for a child? The reasons don't matter. Right. Even if someone is in psychosis, which I think is like again, not hard to tell the difference, I think again, there's this sort of like, there's this veil of this being difficult to diagnose. There are other reasons that a parent might over medicalize their child. It could be because they're anxious. It could be because they're having, having psychosis. Now if someone's in postpartum psychosis or they're having delusions, that is usually very obvious. Right. That's a very special behavior.
- [105:38]
A
It's a snapping.
- [105:39]
B
Right. It's not something out of behavior. Yeah. That goes all the way back for like decades, which in this case, you know, in cases of Munchausen by proxy, it does. And then in the anxiety thing, then you might see some of these parental behaviors that are like exaggerated but still kind of in the spectrum of like normal stuff. Right. Like, oh, this person's taking their kid to the doctor too much, but they're just like an anxiety anxious parent, which is something a lot of parents can relate to. Especially like on your first kid, like every time they sneeze, you're like, blah, you know, are they gonna die? So, you know, I think that that's like an. There's a spectrum there. And then, yeah, if some, someone like is overly anxious and they're over medicalizing their child, that still causes harm, but that's an easier problem to fix. That parent needs more support. You need to have someone else that's like involved in the medical care. And like that parent is usually not going to resist that to the same degree. You don't see people systematically lying to doctors, researching conditions on their computer poisoning because of those reasons. Right. So it, it is actually like it like pretty easy to distinguish at the end of the day.
- [106:39]
A
Oh, thank you all so much for coming on and having this talk.
- [106:42]
B
Thank you for having us. Nikki, it's really you. You asked great questions and had great insights that I, I shall carry along with me.
- [106:50]
A
Oh, thank you so much. I'm going to push your book everywhere I can. It come it comes out in January, February, actually. February comes out in February. February 5th. Okay. We will make sure that we, we coordinate this release with that release. Thank you all so very much. So if people want to find you, where can they find y' all and your work?
- [107:13]
B
So for me, you can find my podcast, Nobody Should Believe Me, anywhere you listen to podcasts and then you can find other information about me at, at my website, androidunlop.net and Mike.
- [107:27]
C
And for me, you can find me at Mike weber consulting weber with1b.com and I provide training on this topic to law enforcement, CPS, pretty much any discipline that touches this abuse. I provide training too. And it's from what to do when this lands on your desk all the way to criminal and through criminal prosecution.
- [107:51]
A
Thank you so much for all the work you have done, all of your career.
- [107:54]
C
Thanks. Sure. I appreciate that.
- [107:57]
A
I want to thank Andrea Dunlop and Mike Weber for being willing to have such a candid conversation, for being people out in the world that also are willing to step in and up and ask the really hard questions, even when it makes people uncomfortable towards the advocacy of children. Children don't have their voices. We are their voices. It takes a village. We are their community. We can be powerful when we don't pretend like abuse isn't happening in our communities. Please take care of yourselves and each other. Light and love. Get the book the Mother next Door and listen to Andrea and Mike on no one Should Believe Me. And tune in next week for a brand new episode of Emotional Badass. I am an emotional badass. You are an emotional badass. And together we are where Moxie meets mindful Bye Bye.
- [109:25]
B
Trip Planner by Expedia. You were made to outdo your holiday, your hammocking and your pooling. We were made to help organize the competition. Expedia made to travel.