214. The Empire of Frankincense & Myrrh

Summary

Empire Podcast Episode 214: The Empire of Frankincense & Myrrh

Hosted by William Dalrymple and Anita Anand, featuring historian Bettany Hughes.

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Introduction

In this captivating episode of Empire, hosts William Dalrymple and Anita Anand delve into the ancient trade of frankincense and myrrh, exploring how these precious commodities shaped civilizations. Special guest Bettany Hughes joins the conversation to provide deep insights into the Nabataean civilization, renowned for their mastery in trade and hydro-engineering.

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Frankincense and Myrrh: Origins and Harvesting

Bettany Hughes begins by elucidating the origins of frankincense and myrrh:

"[Frankincense comes] from the Boswellia sacra tree. It's very difficult to grow and is still harvested by Bedouin communities in places like Oman and Yemen" ([06:15]).

She describes the meticulous process of harvesting frankincense:

"They gently chip away at the trunk of the tree with millimeter precision to avoid wounding the tree. As they chip, the incense oozes out like milk, which then dries into a translucent, golden amber color" ([07:11]).

Hughes emphasizes the functional uses of these resins beyond their aromatic qualities:

"Frankincense has antibacterial and antibiotic properties, making it essential for embalming and anointing queens" ([09:02]).

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The Nabataean Civilization

The discussion shifts to the Nabataean people, a pivotal yet often overlooked civilization:

"The Nabataeans were one of the most influential societies in the story of civilization, yet they often end up in the footnotes of history because they're not Greek, Roman, Egyptian, or Persian" ([14:23]).

Hughes highlights their expertise in trade and water management:

"They were brilliant water engineers and excellent traders, handling commodities like frankincense, pearls, textiles, and gold across 4,000 miles" ([15:56]).

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Petra: The Nabataean Capital

Petra, the Nabataean capital, is described as a marvel of ancient engineering and artistry:

"Petra, originally called Rakmu, is an extraordinary city carved into the cliffs. It's not just a city but a vast archaeological park with tombs and temples" ([25:07]).

Dalrymple adds a cultural reference, likening Petra to its depiction in popular media:

"Indiana Jones has Harrison Ford riding down Petra’s narrow pathways, but in reality, it’s a spectacular oasis rich with palm trees, pools, and vibrant flora" ([33:27]).

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Trade Routes and Conflicts with Greeks and Romans

The Nabataeans' control over trade routes made them both prosperous and targets for empires:

William Dalrymple narrates conflicts with Alexander the Great:

"Alexander the Great attacked Petra to seize the incense trade and bitumen, but the Nabataeans employed guerrilla tactics, using their knowledge of the desert to ambush and decimate his forces" ([35:38]).

David Attenborough elaborates on their strategic maneuvers:

"When the Nabataeans launched a nighttime attack with 8,000 camel-mounted warriors, they annihilated the Greek forces, leaving only 50 cavalrymen to escape" ([37:32]).

Bettany Hughes continues with Roman interactions:

"The Romans, particularly Augustus, were obsessed with controlling the incense trade. Despite multiple attempts, the Nabataeans maintained their dominance through tactical and commercial ingenuity" ([39:24]).

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Societal Structure and Role of Women

The Nabataean society was progressive, especially concerning the status of women:

"Nabataean women had ownership and inheritance rights, built tombs, and priestesses collected tithes and taxes. This elevated their status significantly" ([17:29]).

Hughes compares this to other nomadic societies where women often held central roles:

"Like the Mongols, Nabataean women were integral to the societal structure, managing cities while men led caravans" ([18:52]).

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Persistence and Legacy of the Nabataeans

Despite Roman conquest, the Nabataeans preserved their culture and influence:

"Nabataean style villas continued into the Christian period, and their role as merchants persisted under Roman rule. They integrated without losing their identity" ([42:24]).

Hughes underscores their lasting legacy through architectural marvels:

"All the edifices in Petra are primarily tombs, reflecting their deep connection to the cycle of life and afterlife" ([43:34]).

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Conclusion

The episode concludes by celebrating the ingenuity and resilience of the Nabataean civilization. Their mastery in trade, engineering, and societal organization not only facilitated the flow of frankincense and myrrh but also left an indelible mark on history.

"Although the Nabataeans are not as widely recognized as other ancient civilizations, their contributions were fundamental in shaping early trade networks and cultural exchanges" ([44:20]).

Bettany Hughes hints at future explorations of these topics:

"I'm flying to Oman to continue researching, and we'll bring more fascinating stories about the Nabataeans next year" ([44:23]).

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Notable Quotes:

• "Frankincense is the very posh sense." – William Dalrymple ([13:43])

• "They value liberty with a very nice lifestyle attached." – Bettany Hughes ([19:33])

• "It's like the Fremen from Dune, who know the deserts and can navigate them better than anyone else." – William Dalrymple ([20:11])

• "The cycle of life is much more Bedouin in that they know our matter continues in the sun, the moon, the stars, and the planets." – Bettany Hughes ([43:38])

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This episode of Empire not only sheds light on the ancient trade of frankincense and myrrh but also brings to the forefront the remarkable Nabataean civilization that thrived on ingenuity, trade, and cultural resilience.

Transcript

[Anita Anand]

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[David Attenborough]

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[David Attenborough]

On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary and they bowed down and worshipped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh.

[William Dalrymple]

Hello. Welcome to Empire with me, Anita Arden.

[David Attenborough]

And me, David Attenborough.

[William Dalrymple]

Yeah. Well, exactly what are you doing? Auditioning for some kind of narration thing?

[David Attenborough]

I rather like that. Yeah.

[William Dalrymple]

Voiceovers by William Dalrymple. He can do drama, he can do pathos, he can do comedy.

[David Attenborough]

Could a whole new career.

[William Dalrymple]

Good Lord. Anyway, look, hello, it is Empire and we are so excited because we've brought you an early Christmas present in the perfectly formed shape of Bettany Hughes, our favorite historian. How are you, lovely woman?

[Bettany Hughes]

Thank you. I'm just delighted and overjoyed to be with you from thousands of miles away. We're very definitely not in the same time zone or country or continents or.

[William Dalrymple]

Indeed in Kansas anymore. I mean, look, you are sort of dusty because you have come out of the trenches, digging into the very, very history that we are talking about. So the last episode that we did here on Empire was about the magi. And we promised that we would get deep into the heart of those gifts that were brought to the infant baby Jesus. So appropriate. Christmas Eve today, and we were talking about frankincense and myrrh. And you are following that trail right now, right here and right now, aren't you?

[Bettany Hughes]

I am. So I'm very wicked because I shouldn't be talking to you at all. Because people said you mustn't tell anybody you're here following the trail of frankincense. So I thought, oh, what will do? I'll get on a podcast with Anita and William, my old friends, and tell the world about it.

[David Attenborough]

We won't tell anyone.

[Bettany Hughes]

Don't tell a soul, please.

[David Attenborough]

You can be absolutely between us, just US and our 880, 000 downloaders.

[Bettany Hughes]

Gorgeous. Gorgeous. Well, I'm, I'm. I'm dusty. I'm not going to tell you exactly where I am because I've been handling beautiful, beautiful pots from the age of Jesus. In fact, from that world that gave him gold and frankincense and myrrh this morning. And as soon as we finish speaking, I'm going to Oman to have a look at where incense actually came from. So. So it's perfect. You're catching me mid flow.

[David Attenborough]

That is very exciting.

[Bettany Hughes]

Mid archaeology stream, as it were.

[William Dalrymple]

You are literally always the perfect guest. You could not be more perfect now. And can I just say, before we go any further with this story, there's a little story. There's a little Ben Hughes story I want to share with you because your seven wonders of the Ancient world, Bethany Hughes, just keeps rising to the top.

[David Attenborough]

It does. Number one.

[William Dalrymple]

Amazing. It's such a fabulous book and it is no surprise to me. Like, Zebedee just keeps leaping on up there, right to the. The heady heights of those charts.

[Bettany Hughes]

What lovely, lovely people. Lovely friends you are to mention that. That's good. I know, it's fantastic. I. I haven't really been home since August 16th. I've been on the road and I keep on getting these very sweet messages from my husband saying, woo, woo, woo. Well done, number one. When are you coming home, please? So, no, I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled. It's great, isn't it? Because, you know, these are these things that existed. All the stuff that we talk about was a long time ago. These are really a long time ago. But it's fabulous that people still care about them.

[William Dalrymple]

Well, let's start because frankincense we touched on with our brilliant, brilliant guest.

[David Attenborough]

We Love Lloyd. He's just wonderful, man. Might just have to do another whole Persian series just to get Lloyd back on.

[William Dalrymple]

Oh, he's just. He's just so fabulous. But we talked about frankincense and I think we ought to really sort of explain what this stuff is. So if you look at it, it looks like crystallized sugar, which can lead to some real problems in my household because my mother once somebody gave me some frankincense and she popped a whole handful in her mouth and tried to eat it. And we have. She threw it all out. So we now can't have frankincense in this house ever again because, you know, my mother. But what. What does it look like? And just tell us. With frankincense and myrrh, they have a similar origin story of how we. We come to get it and harvest.

[Bettany Hughes]

It's totally right. So they're. But from very different trees. So frankincense comes from the boswellia sacra tree. It's a tree. It's very difficult to grow, that.

[David Attenborough]

Boswellia as in Johnson and Boswell?

[Bettany Hughes]

Indeed, indeed. And sacra as in. As in sacred, obviously. And I've seen incense being harvested and it's the most extraordinary thing.

[David Attenborough]

Not everyone can say that. No, it's true that they've seen incense being harvested. It sounds like the April fool about spaghetti harvest, but there you have.

[Bettany Hughes]

No, no. I've spent a long time watching incense being harvested, Harvested. And you know what's incredible? So it's still done by Bedouin communities in places like Oman and Yemen. It's a very, very particular skill because they basically gently, gently, gently, gently chip away at the trunk of the tree. And you have to be absolutely millimeter precise, because if you wound the tree too much, then you get infections in and the tree dies. And as they chip, chip chips, this lovely sound as they. As they chip the trunk, the incense oozes out of the boswellia sacra. Like me, milk. It's white.

[David Attenborough]

Sticky.

[Bettany Hughes]

Yeah, sticky. White glue. And often in the region it's called words relating to white or milk. So laba, Labneh, lebna. It was called that sometimes in the ancient world too, because it just looks like the tree is weeping milk. But then the magic happens when it dries because it becomes this beautiful translucent, almost kind of golden amber like colour.

[David Attenborough]

And this is both myrrh and frankincense or just frankincense.

[Bettany Hughes]

Frankincense, actually. I failed you. I've not seen myrrh being.

[William Dalrymple]

I know myrrh I know myrrh. I have. Well, I'm not, not personally, but I've seen videos and it is a very similar situation where the, the bark of this and both of these trees that yield this, this golden kind of harvest, they're small and gnarly and they don't look very beautiful at all. They're low to the ground, they're very, very scrubby looking. And likewise with myrrh, again, the SAP is white and sticky, but when it's exposed to the air, it goes redder. So, you know, your frankincense is golden and amber, as you quite rightly say. And the myrrh is a much sort of rustier red color. Because these trees, much like the human body, they try to protect themselves from wounds and infections. So what they do is if they sense that they've been cut, they release this kind of SAP which in nature will just go to this glassy texture and seal up the wound. But the chemicals that are released, they are very volatile in these sort of bumps and bruises. And it's that volatile chemical that gives you the smell both in frankincense and in myrrh. And very different they are too. They're both kind of woody. But myrrh, when you burn, it's much more spicy and frankincense is a bit more lemony tinged. So that is why. And they have antibiotic qualities which we'll come to with myrrh, because that's very important, why they're used for embalming and for anointing queens and things like that.

[David Attenborough]

And do we know how early on man realized that this milk could be used for anything?

[Bettany Hughes]

So you get frankincense balls in Tutankhamun's tomb, for instance. Really the first recorded evidence is a thousand years before that. Because as you say, Anita, it's such a funny thing, isn't it? If we use the word incense or frankincense, I think almost automatically we think of a sort of lovely wafty, nice to have thing that makes rooms and churches and temples smells nice and is, you know, overused in drama recons and kind of Roman films. And Glenn, there's always like clouds of incense. But it's so functional, it's so practical, exactly as you say. It's got antibacterial and antibiotic properties. They even now think that incense is a, is actually a very natural mood liftner, which is something that's talked about in the, in the ancient sources. And women used to burn frankincense wood a lot. And then they would use the kind of charcoal's ends to make coal because it works as an insect repellent. So it's got massive, massive uses. So, as we all know, the ancients are very good, basically, if there's something handy around them. They are very good at discovering that early on because for them, this is a difference between life and death and survival.

[David Attenborough]

And how early on did it get associated with gods and divinity in temples?

[Bettany Hughes]

Right from the very start. So it's either described as the tears or the sweat or the breath, breath of gods. And there was this notion that by burning frankincense, you physically lifted messages up to the sky. So it would be on those kind of clouds that these, these very particular prayers would be carried, which is the reason it got burnt in, in temples and then eventually in, in churches. So it's always had this sacred tinge to it. And actually, in fact, ladies and gents, where I'm heading in Oman, this very remote island, it was described as an island inhabited by holy men. And they were holy because they dealt in frankincense.

[William Dalrymple]

I mean, it's sort of two things here. I mean, I was reading some science journals as to, you know, why this might be sort of related to sort of heavenly things. People write about this stuff. It's fantastic. The world is the library for you. But it's because sort of richer people would be able to afford this stuff and they had better hygiene and they got sick less. And so suddenly these two things got conflated that, you know, sort of better health or being, you know, a curse of sickness, being lift from you. It is associated with the smell that wafts around wealthier people or people who clean up, or people who, you know, have temples and things which are free from the refuse of ancient times, which were just rich with cholera and typhoid and all of those things. The other thing I just want. I thought this was fascinating, but the book of Exodus mentions a particular blend of frankincense. And it's such an interesting reference because it says, you know, look, this must be. And it's a special recipe of frankincense and it says you have to burn it before the Ark of the Covenant. And if, if anyone tries to take any of this stuff to burn it for themselves, they must be, and I quote, cut off from their people. So it was specifically a scent or a smoke of the gods that had magical powers.

[David Attenborough]

How quickly does it turn into an export item? How quickly is it being shipped off from this region of Arabia in the wider sense to Europe? And beyond?

[Bettany Hughes]

Well, again, almost immediately. So it goes through the desert route. So you have desert incense trails and then these maritime incense trails. And we know that the records that we have from, you know, what we would call the Western world. Alexander the Great, for instance, gets into massive trouble because he orders too much, too much incense. Basically. If you've got this grand idea of yourself that you, you're due this amount, as you're saying, Anita, because of it being a status symbol, you're going to come to us to a sticky end. So that's when we start to hear it written about, you know, in really great detail. But as basically as soon as we have records, because how could you not. As we said, it is this, it's kind of quasi magical thing. And, and actually in, in posh Greek and Roman homes, it was burnt as well as being burnt in the temples. And there was a whole etiquette around it that you had particular brands of frankincense incense and myrrh that were burnt at different times of, of day. So there was a kind of competitive incense burning, I think, amongst the kind of urban, urban elite, you know, and frankincense, because people say, what's the difference between incense and frankincense sense? Frank is basically a later French word that means really posh or kind of really high, high quality. So frankincense is the very posh sense.

[William Dalrymple]

Oh, that is very, very interesting. We are here to talk about largely the people who cornered the market, as it were, and built an entire civilization off the back of these magical aromatic wafts of smoke. And they are a people that you know everything about because you have been digging away into their history, but most people will not even have of the Nabataeans. Now, can you just, first of all give us a thumbnail sketch of who the Nabataeans were?

[Bettany Hughes]

I can indeed. I should also just warn you, I am obsessed with the Nabataeans and that works for us. More than a little bit in love with them.

[William Dalrymple]

So how long have we got?

[David Attenborough]

We've got a log, as you like, red news.

[William Dalrymple]

So.

[Bettany Hughes]

So, absolutely. So the Nabataeans, one of the most influential societies and cultures in the story of civilization. And yet. And it drives me mad, they often end up in the footnotes of history, ignored or actually kind of actively censored from the record books because they're not Greek, they're not Roman, they're not Egyptian, they're not Persian, and yet they interact with all of these worlds. So basically they're initially a desert dwelling tribe.

[David Attenborough]

I mean, are they basically Arabs? Are we right to call them Arabs?

[Bettany Hughes]

They are largely early Arabs. Yeah, absolutely.

[David Attenborough]

Because their script becomes Arab, doesn't it?

[Bettany Hughes]

Exactly. So this is just one of the many things that they give the world. And they're, you know, we should all know that as a fact. And yet they don't get the credit where credit is due. They sort of come really into the spotlight in the 5th and 4th centuries BCE, but they're described earlier than that by Assyrian sources. And Assyrian sources talk about these men that live in the desert in very, very harsh climate, and yet they say somehow they make the desert flourish, they make a success of this world. And they're talking both about their extraordinary water engineering. They're really pioneers in water tech.

[David Attenborough]

This is something we'll come back to because it's very important.

[Bettany Hughes]

It's very important. So. So that. So they're great water engineers and they are also very, very good at trading. They trade not just frankincense, but also pearls and beautiful textiles and indeed gold over 4,000 miles.

[David Attenborough]

And they start off as camel herders, is that right?

[Bettany Hughes]

They do. I mean, I. Yeah, they do kind of camel herders, goat herders. They are basically desert people. But as far back as we have records, they're also trading. So I was slightly leaked their defense.

[William Dalrymple]

Yes, you are.

[Bettany Hughes]

I do. I won't hear a word them.

[David Attenborough]

You're among friends here. We're also big.

[Bettany Hughes]

I'm so pleased. I'm so pleased because. Because they're just very smart. I was actually talking to an archaeologist yesterday in our dusty, dusty trench, and I said, you know what if you had to sell the Nabians to the world, because quite rightly, as you said, so few people have heard of them. They've heard of this place that they built, Petra, but they don't know the name of the Nab.

[David Attenborough]

Petra. We will do a lot about.

[Bettany Hughes]

Perfect. But say. So I said, how would you describe them? And he said, well. Well, one of the things about the Nabataeans is they don't really care about much other than making money, which makes them sound shallow. But then if you think about it, we're talking about the ancient world. So in order to make money, you have to really get on with people. You have to be multilingual. You have to earn the trust of those that you're trading with. You have to be able to travel extraordinary distances. You have to have extraordinary know how. So they're basically in comparison, again with the other civilizations of the time. They're very peaceful. They Just want to get on with their job of being the uber traders. The kind of Amazon service of the ancient people.

[William Dalrymple]

That's a beautiful way of putting it.

[David Attenborough]

And like Amazon, they don't actually make it themselves. They're buying the incense from other people.

[Bettany Hughes]

Yeah. So Oman and Yemen are two of the few places on Earth where the boswellia sacra trees can grow. So they're importing and exporting this, this incredible crop. And they're helping, you know, they're helping build the forts where this, this very precious commodity is stored. But they are exactly that. They're basically the kind of middlemen and really, crucially, middle women. And this is another reason that I adore, I adore the Nabateans. Women have incredible status and standing in the Nabatean world. And again, why aren't we all taught this at school? So I always feel it's a tiny bit like the kind of situation during World War I and after, because a lot of the actual camel caravans themselves are run by men. So it's the men physically out on the camels, physically doing those long sea journeys. Women are left behind in the cities and the settlements to run things. So Nabatean women, we know, had ownership rights, they had inheritance rights. They built extraordinary tombs in places like Alula, in. In what's now Saudi Arabia. The priestesses can collect tithes and taxes. So they're really, really, really kind of keeping the Nabatean world going. And we see from the coins, Nabatean coins, you often have the queens featured alongside the Nabatean kings.

[David Attenborough]

That's not untypical of nomadic peoples, though, is it? You find a lot of nomad peoples that the women have got much, much bigger roles and are much more at the centre of things.

[William Dalrymple]

We were talking about it with the Mongols and Genghis Khan, I mean, where women more agency and were trained in fighting and things like that. Is it just a function of nomadic life? Because I know that some of the early historians, people like sort of Diodorus, who wrote about them very early on, said these are people who value their freedom above everything else. I mean, I know your guy said they love money. One of the things that often, early ancient historians said, these are a free people who know the desert better than anybody else and they value freedom above everything else.

[Bettany Hughes]

Exactly. Well, they do, they value liberty, but you can still be wealthy and have liberty. You know, they. They value liberty with a very nice lifestyle attached. Thank you very much. Like, it's kind of the vibe that I get from them. So they. You're again. And it's really crucial that, that they are obsessed with having the liberty to travel where they want and when they want. And at one point when they rub up against the Romans, they say, listen, what we just can't understand is let us live as we want to live. That's all, that's all that we ask to do. And we know that we help you, you. So, so why on earth are you trying to overrun us and enslave us? Let us live as we want to live.

[William Dalrymple]

Well, I mean, let's not jump ahead to the Romans. Let's, let's talk a little bit because we're going to come to that because it is sort of the, almost the end of a fabulous story. But I want to sort of dwell in the beginning because it's so gorgeous. The reason, one of the reasons the Nabataeans are so successful is number one, they know the desert better than anyone else because they are a free people and they have traveled it. I mean it's sort of a little bit of a Dune vibe going on here. You know, where you've got the Fremen, if you are into that kind of thing, who know the deserts, they travel through areas that nobody else can and they are able to, to wander freely with their blue, blue eyes and the dark, dark sand. But I mean, having that knowledge of the desert means early on when these peace loving people are sort of, you know, with all this knowledge, they see caravans who are traveling and they become guides. That's the first thing that they do to sort of get even into this world of trade and money, honey, they start, start leading caravans and saying, look, we'll protect these caravans. It doesn't take long because as you say, they are brilliantly canny to say, why are we protecting these guys? Why don't we just do it ourselves? And they sort of corner the trade routes of particularly spices, frankincense and myrrh.

[Bettany Hughes]

I love the fact that it's very similar to Dune because obviously spice was this precious commodity that was, that was traded in Dune, in the film Dune. That also had these kind of magical medicinal properties. And incense as we now know is exactly the same. So yeah, they were protect caravans and then they, they take over with their unique understanding of the desert. They were also great mariners and, and again, it's something I think that we forget about the Nabians, if we ever knew about them in the first place, but now we know about. People must remember not to forget that they were also great masters, masters of the Sea because they understand the Red Sea and the coral bomas. They're very good at negotiating around those that there's a slightly less savory moment in their history where they seem to act as kind of pirates and, you know, lure ships onto the coral reefs so that they'll break. Exactly, exactly. Wreckers. And they hire themselves out as mercenaries. So at the time of the battle of Actium and you know, all that conflict between Cleopatra and Rome, there are Nabataean sailors involved in that as well. So they're sailors as well as in charge of. In charge of those routes in the desert.

[David Attenborough]

And we should say that this is a period when the Red Sea is a very busy. You've got, particularly in the kind of first century bc, you've got lots of long distance stuff going first to the Horn of Africa, to Aksum and the Ethiopian kingdoms, and then beyond following the monsoon winds to India, which is. I write about this in My Golden Road. And you have. This just takes two months on the monsoon winds to leave the Red Sea and travel all the way down to.

[William Dalrymple]

Kerala and the map of the world. I mean, I think this is just so important to sort of look back and see what places. Gaza was one of the most wealthy, thriving ports where, you know, this stuff came in and stuff went out. So you would have these sort of incense trails, you know, coming through the port of Gaza, which was wealthy beyond imaginings for people who lived around there.

[David Attenborough]

And you still have fragments of that amid all the mere cigars of those Byzantine churches sitting there where we had the Palestinian Christians being attacked earlier in the war there. But those churches go back to this period, to the period when the incense is coming through Gaza and going on to Rome and Byzantium.

[William Dalrymple]

I'm really interested, though, why we are so ignorant about this, because it's not as if we didn't know about this here in the West. There was this one chap, I'm sure you know all about him, and I love him because he just sounds so eccentric and bonkers. Johann Ludwig, yes. He sort of went and was the first European, they say, in 1812, to see Petra. And we should talk about Petra because it's so intrinsically linked with the Nabataeans.

[David Attenborough]

Rose Red city as old as time.

[William Dalrymple]

But he saw it, you know, he's this fantastic guy who sort of grows up in Switzerland and he trains in and goes and learns things in Cambridge. In fact, he's tasked with going to find Timbuktu and mapping the Sahara Desert. And so he learns Arabic at University decides to dress as an Arab because he wants to pretend to be an Arab. So he's wandering around Cambridge, Cambridge, in terrible inclement weather in a dish dash and a turban. Everyone thinks he's mad, but he is this person who writes this account of traveling through these narrow passes near, you know, Wadi Musa, the valley of Moses, and suddenly coming out into this wide open space and seeing Petra. Wadi Musa, by the way, is so interesting because that's in the Bible as well. That's where Moses supposedly struck a rock and this spring came, came up through the rocks for those people fleeing Pharaoh. Now tell us about Petra. Where is it? What? You know, describe what he saw because he was so overawed by it. He was also worried he was going to get his throat slit at any moment. So didn't hang around too long.

[David Attenborough]

Originally called the rock, isn't that right?

[Bettany Hughes]

Yeah, Rakmu. Rakmu, that's what the Nabateans called it, which is. Was their word for rock. And then it becomes Petra rock in Greek. So it's sort of. It is the rock. It's a very rocky place. You know, you've got this famous Sikh, made even more famous by the fact that Indiana Jones had Harrison Ford rides down it. And then you know, that kind of is inside the treasury. So Petra's most beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Not just city, but whole region.

[David Attenborough]

There's much more of it than people realize. A lot of outlying monuments and extraordinary things around that whole area.

[Bettany Hughes]

Absolutely. There's little Petra, there are areas of tombs. I mean, this is a huge archaeological park that you can go and visit. And can I just say, please, people go and visit it because Jordan is, has, you know, it's really suffered because of what's happening in the Middle east and tourists aren't going. But Jordan is really, really safe. So please go there. So Petra, yes, this incredible city, the kind of northern capital of the Nabataean kingdom. And again, as you say, Anita, if you go there, it's one of those places you think this can't have been forgotten until 1812, until the 19th century. It's one of the most extraordinary places on earth. It's not an official wonder of the world, but it is a wonder of, of the world. But I think there's a very particular reason for that and it's very pernicious one because as I said, the Nabians aren't big on written histories. They, they do write, and this is early form of Arabic they cover their tombs with. So it's not true that they don't write and they, they do make a record of themselves, but they're much less show offy and shouty than the Greeks and the Romans. They're kind of more again just sort of getting on with it and measuring themselves up, I always feel, measuring themselves up against the extraordinary nature and landscape and geology that they inhabit.

[David Attenborough]

Lovely way of putting it. And it's quite a stable regime, isn't it, that they don't have coups, they don't, you know, brothers don't kill each other. We just be doing the moguls. In every generation there's a kind of massive upheaval when one guy goes down and all the children's busy blinding and sort of capturing each other. That doesn't happen in Petra.

[Bettany Hughes]

Yes, there's certainly less of that. I mean, yes, you know, there's a lot less of that. As I said, they're focused on the bottom line because that would just make, you know, that would make the kind of interrupt the cash flow. So yes, they do seem stable and again they have this sort of inbuilt checks and balance. So there's almost a day in Petra, which is like the Feast of Fools that we would think of as a medieval thing where basically the king has to sit surrounded by all the people of Petra and answer his faults. So they do a kind of roasting of the king really.

[William Dalrymple]

Oh wow, that's amazing.

[Bettany Hughes]

Is incredible, isn't it?

[David Attenborough]

Him going like we don't get to do that now.

[Bettany Hughes]

No, exactly. But how, again, how forward thinking is that for them to say we know we're not perfect, we know we can do better. There's probably simmering resentments. Get it all out in, in one go.

[William Dalrymple]

Could you just sort of give us a date for when those enormous sort of cliff face carvings of a, a beautiful temple and city are sort of created, the Petra that if someone's going to Google it right now, and I really do urge you to Google it because if you haven't seen it, it is breathtaking. But this was when and was it all built off the back of, you know, frankincense and myrrh basically and the incense trail?

[Bettany Hughes]

I mean, definitely, yeah. I mean it's a wealthy, wealthy city. So kind of fundamentally, you know, give and take, 100 years either side, it's pretty much dead on 2,000 years ago. So that's so at the time of Jesus. So Herod the Great's mother by the way, was Nabatean. Again, like how come we don't know that?

[David Attenborough]

And then Herod himself fights with the people of Petra, doesn't he? There's a. There's a kind of argy bargy going on over that border. Just for a change.

[Bettany Hughes]

There is. They get involved. Exactly. In Judea. And one of the Nabataean kings is very disapproving of the fact that Herod Antipas takes a new wife. The famous dance of the Seven Veils, that never actually happened with Salome, but they're involved in that story as well. So they're kind of deeply, basically what we think of as the kind of high summer of the classical world. The Nabataeans are there almost like this kind of silent partner in everything that's going on.

[David Attenborough]

We've been largely describing them with relation to their Western neighbours, but they're also big friends, aren't they, with the Parthians. And like the Parthians, there's some evidence that they expose their bodies once they're dead, that they leave them for sky burial, like Zoroastrians. Which takes us back to the Magi, where we're coming from. So this is all connected with the story of the Magi?

[Bettany Hughes]

Yeah, it's all connected. And they absolutely look both east and west. That's completely crucial to their success and their sense of themselves and the world.

[William Dalrymple]

Well, let's take a break and after the break, let's sort of develop a little bit more the Nabataean story that you have never heard before. And you're hearing it from the greatest source that we could possibly bring you. Our Christmas present to you because we spoil you. Join us after the break.

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[William Dalrymple]

Welcome back. So just before the break, we were talking about Petra and you know, what you'll see is this redstone, dry, arid place. But we touched on this. Bethany, I want you to talk about it a bit more. They understood water, the importance of water, how to store it and how to move it better than anybody else in that great expanse of desert. Tell me how they did it. Because they greened. Petrae had palm trees and pools.

[Bettany Hughes]

Yeah, absolutely. Meadows. It had vineyards. And as you say, they are masters at hydro engineering, as many societies that depend on the desert are deep in the desert. They used to establish cisterns and there was this whole sort of secret coded messages that they would leave on the surface of the land so that if you were a friend of the Nabataeans, you would know where to go down to find the water. But in Petra, they just take this to an extraordinary level. So there are wells, there are pipe systems that you can still see if you go to visit Petra itself, running down the Siq, where they would gather rainwater in these kinds of mountaintop cisterns and send it down through the city. And yeah, I mean, it's just, it's kind of astonishing what they did. Even in Alula, which is another of their cities in the south, this place that's called Hegra, I think, I think at the latest counts, they've discovered 132 different wells there. So in one city, you know, that's a, that's an awful lot of wells. So that it's incredibly sophisticated and rather beautifully, there are Jordanian academics studying this at the, at the moment with this luminescence system where they're basically measuring ancient sunlight and working out when ancient sunlight last hits these particular channels and engineering. So they can work out exactly what year they were created and whether they were kind of master craftsmen who are working on one or the other. So, you know, it's both functional and very romantic.

[David Attenborough]

And so when you would arrive at Petra in antiquity like today, you'd go down this very narrow cleft in the rock that's almost one or two people wide. That's why it's so wonderfully defensible. But then at the end of it, you'd come not to the wonderful sort of deserty looking, exotic dry series of tomb facades and so on that you see today. You'd actually enter this spectacular oasis, green and gorgeous and hung with fruit and trees and incense bearing plants.

[Bettany Hughes]

Yeah. Rich with the smells. And people talk about the number of bees that there were there and the lavender that grew. And mangoes.

[David Attenborough]

Mangoes.

[William Dalrymple]

Just mad, isn't it? If you look at the desert, they're growing mangoes in the desert. Now. If you build something this good and if your money honey is based on frankincense and something that's portable, I'm guessing there are people who want it very, very much. And who are the first people who think, you know what, we'll have a bit of that? No, we'll have all of it. It's the Greeks. How do they sort of get involved?

[Bettany Hughes]

Well, al, Alexander the Great, as we know, not. Not a man to kind of look down a. Yeah, back off from a. From a. From a challenge. So the Greeks attack Petra and they try to take it over. Actually, interestingly, what they want is both the incense trade and something else which the Nabataeans trade in, which is the petrochemical of the day. Bitumen.

[David Attenborough]

Asphalt.

[Bettany Hughes]

Yeah. Which. Which in some versions becomes asphalt. Exactly. So bitumen is a. A naturally occurring petrochemical. It bubbles up out of places like the Dead Sea. And in their early history, the Dead Sea is within Nabataean territory. And bitumen is also extraordinarily useful. So you can use bitumen in building material, you can use it as a fuel, you can use it to waterproof boats and those famous water systems that the Nabataeans are such stars at. So basically people want a bit of all of that. They want the incense and they want the bitumen. And so they attack the Nabataeans again and again. But like in Dune, the film, it's a really bad idea to attack.

[William Dalrymple]

Don't pick on them. Don't pick on the Fremen.

[Bettany Hughes]

Yeah, exactly.

[William Dalrymple]

You're not gonna win.

[Bettany Hughes]

You're not gonna win. Don't pick on a desert people in the desert.

[David Attenborough]

There's that lovely story when the first bunch of Greeks, a one eyed Greek general, Antigonus comes and he does it when all the men are away yes. And he enslaves the women and carries them off. And then there's this wonderful dune moment.

[William Dalrymple]

Yeah, but like a doofus, he's brought horses. Cause he's Greek, what does he know? He hasn't brought ca. Camels, he's bought horses. So sort of dragging all the slaves and the incense that's weighing down his poor horses, they are knackered. They get about, what, 30 kilometers, Bethany away from Petra, not far at all.

[Bettany Hughes]

They've got silver as well. They've got huge amounts of silver. And so the men, the furious, heroic Nabatean men, as I said, who can do no wrong in my eyes.

[David Attenborough]

It's a June moment, isn't it? It really is.

[Bettany Hughes]

It is. They recede back into the desert and. And then attack. They also attack successfully by sea when there's another Greek intervention, they attack on rafts with arrows. So yeah. So even Alexander the Great, who as we know was not unsuccessful in his campaign of conquest, even he can't quite take over Nabatean territory.

[David Attenborough]

Can we just do this heroic moment which has to be when we make the film of it better? We have to have this moment.

[Bettany Hughes]

Yes.

[David Attenborough]

In that first raid, when they've taken all the women from Petra and enslaved them and led them into the desert. The people of Petra, they've sent trackers ahead and some of the Petra captives have escaped. And they meet in the desert at night and the Petrans work out exactly where the Romans are camped. And under the COVID of darkness in the night, 8,000 camel mounted warriors come out of the desert. And the Greeks are all fast asleep or just getting up. And the Nabateans fight with jack javelins and they kill the Greeks where they lay lancing those who clambered awake to defend themselves. And there's only 50 Greek cavalrymen that escape into the desert. It's, it's.

[William Dalrymple]

It's a lovely Christmas story.

[David Attenborough]

Timothy Chabolay's there somewhere to add to.

[Bettany Hughes]

This lovely Christmas story. Have either of you ever seen a camel's inflatable mouth sack?

[William Dalrymple]

No. I want to now. It's the only thing I want to see. What is that?

[David Attenborough]

For the man who. Who has everything.

[Bettany Hughes]

Listen, guys, see it. You will never want to see it again, I promise you. It's one of the most.

[David Attenborough]

Oh, when they blow those big balloons. Yes, I have seen that, yeah.

[William Dalrymple]

No, what is it? No, wait a minute, I have a.

[Bettany Hughes]

What is it? Please don't Google it now because you might not survive the rest of the podcast.

[David Attenborough]

Do Google it because you'd enjoy it.

[Bettany Hughes]

It's shocking, astonishing, petrifying. And it's basically what male camels do when they're excited either by anger, fear, rage or sexual harassment.

[David Attenborough]

And I've brought this on on a.

[Bettany Hughes]

Couple of camels, actually, for another time.

[William Dalrymple]

I'm sure it's not anger, William, sure it's not anger, but carry on.

[Bettany Hughes]

So they bear down on you. So this is, when I think of that story, I don't just think of the javelins, I think of these mouth sacks which just like burst out like the most disgusting innards with sort of dripping with camel saliva, vibrating when they're crossing.

[David Attenborough]

They make quite a racket while they're doing it.

[William Dalrymple]

Can I just say, this is the most seasonal podcast you're going to listen to. You're not going to get this any anywhere else. This is the only place you're going to get this.

[David Attenborough]

Camel mouth sacks coming to you from Empire Pod.

[William Dalrymple]

Could we talk very briefly about the Romans? Because where the Greeks fail, arguably the Romans, who've also got their eye on the dizzying. Well, which again, I mean, just biblical references, they, they mention how rich these, these tribes of the desert are and that they, I'm thinking, are talking about the Nabisians, when they say how much tribute is given to King David, you know, that it was just mountains and mountains of gold that come from the desert people. So tell me, when do the Romans suddenly think we will succeed where the Greeks have been massacred?

[Bettany Hughes]

Well, they do. They keep on trying, the Romans, and partly because you said they want all of their wealth, also because they are obsessed with incense. The Romans, the Romans have a real fetish for incense. They just can't get enough of it. Augustus in particular is determined to take over that incense trade. I mean, we're talking about industrial quantities of incense coming into Rome itself, the city of Rome.

[David Attenborough]

And I've read an essay by that wonderful scholar Bowersock, who's got this sounds like he's got an inflatable camel thing going on himself. And Bowersock writes how he thinks Augustus particularly wants the incense because of its link to divinity and kingship. And so the same reason that St. Matthew is bringing incense into the Gospel story is the thing that's propelling Augustus at the same sort of time to go and find the, the source of the incense.

[Bettany Hughes]

I mean, it's absolutely right. And the. So the Nabataeans, in that clever merchant way, are sort of sometimes allies of the Romans, sometimes their arch enemies, but they do the most brilliant bits of kind of tactical, commercially minded, industrial one Upmanship, in a sense, because they say that they're going to take the Romans to seek, find the source of incense. And it's this hideous journey that takes months and Romans fall by the wayside and they get dysentery and disease and it's like this. Exactly. It's the desert at its harshest. And on the way back, that journey takes a fraction of the time because the Nabataean guides are going, actually, we could have done it like this the first time around.

[William Dalrymple]

We didn't want to because we wanted.

[Bettany Hughes]

To prove to you that you can't operate without. You know, it's so smart, it's so canny.

[William Dalrymple]

I love the other thing about the Nabataeans and I'm pretty sure they are responsible because it's too clever and too wonderful for anyone else to have done it. But in antiquity they certainly had all this mythology around the trees that yielded frankincense and myrrh, saying, you know, that they were guarded by these winged serpents or monsters that would come and get you. Now I am absolutely convinced, don't know about you, Bethany, that that is clever Nabateans putting it about that, you know what? Only we can get past the winged serpents, my friends, to get to this.

[Bettany Hughes]

Of course it is. Of course it is. No, that mean they're super smart and they, you know, their relationship with the Romans is, as I said, it's also much more sophisticated than is described actually in a lot of textbooks. Because probably now, if you will go and you know, Google Nabataeans, it will tell you that the Romans took over in the second century A.D. that kind of. There's a Trajan conquest and annexation and then that's it for the Nabataeans. And it's really, really. That is not the case. We know again from the archaeology, dare I say it, from some of the archaeology I was standing in earlier. Earlier today. Yeah, that nab. Carry on. There are Nabataean style villas that continue right the way through the Christian period. And they. It's almost more that they just do what they're always very good at.

[David Attenborough]

They're Byzantine churches. There aren't the lovely basilicas in Petra.

[Bettany Hughes]

Yeah, beautiful Byzantine churches. Quite. Sometimes these Nabataeans convert to Christianity in its earliest form. So they don't go away. That's what's really interesting. They don't become an enslaved nation or population. They keep going, they keep being the great guides and the merchants they just allow to do it under this kind of Roman gloss so that the Romans might think they've won, but they haven't really. The Nabataeans are playing them at their own game.

[David Attenborough]

Can I ask one question which I'm itching to ask before we finish it? We talked with Lloyd last time about how myrrh is sometimes associated with death and embalming. What is it with the Nabataeans and death? Because all those lovely buildings that you see pictures of when you talk about Petra are not actually house, are they? Or even temples, they're tombs.

[Bettany Hughes]

Yeah, exactly. The treasury, the famous treasury that again is in the kinds of Indiana Jones, Harrison Ford films and that appears on every postcard of Petra. It's not a treasury, it's a tomb, probably for Aretas iv, the kind of premier king. And all of their cities are surrounded by tombs, kind of inward facing, also orientated to the sun, the moon and the stars.

[David Attenborough]

And we have sort of far more tombs for them than we do anything they're actually living in.

[Bettany Hughes]

It's like the attraction Egyptians in that they love life so much, they want it to carry on after death. So it's not an obsession with death, it's an obsession with life. The way that they talk about the cycle of life is much more Bedouin in that. Again, it just carries on. They know that at a cosmic level we're all connected and that just our matter continues in the. In the Matrix and will continue to be part of the sun, the moon, the stars and the planets and that's their world.

[William Dalrymple]

Well, can I just say, there has never been a podcast that's mentioned so many films. Matrix, Dune, I mean, everything is here and it is our Christmas present to you and you have been a fabulous Christmas present to us. Thank you so very much.

[David Attenborough]

Bethany Hughes, you're flying now to Oman, are you?

[Bettany Hughes]

I'm flying in three minutes to Oman and, and we're researching and I don't know if this is, you know, we're. Fear not. Lovely. Dear people, we won't tell anyone, don't tell anyone, but this will all become. Is this part go also going to be part of a beautiful series that will come to you next year? You heard it here.

[William Dalrymple]

Well, we will plug the absolute living daylights out of that. Bettany. Thank you so much. Happy Christmas from all of us. It's been an absolutely wonderful miniseries and we've been so happy to do it. Next time on Empire, we're going to return to the Moguls with the extraordinary. And let me tell you, it is an extraordinary story of Jahangir. Till the next time we meet, it is goodbye from me. Anita Anand Goodbye from me.

[David Attenborough]

William Durham Foreign.

[Anita Anand]

Merry Christmas listeners. Aren't you bored of always getting technicolored socks, ill fitting jumpers and milk tray for Christmas? Well, sigh no more because Empire POD is coming to the rescue. We've got your last minute gift request sold. All you have to do is ask your family members to give you a six month or annual membership to our Empire Club. You will enjoy early access, access to miniseries ad, free listening, exclusive bonus episodes and our really rather impressive weekly newsletter. So just tell your family members to go to www.empirepoduk.com and click Gifts to get you something that you actually want. It takes less than two minutes and will land in your inbox on Christmas morning.