229. Britain’s Last Colony: The Second World War, Forced Deportations, and 9/11 (Ep 1)

Summary

Empire Podcast Summary: Episode 229 - "Britain’s Last Colony: The Second World War, Forced Deportations, and 9/11"

Host(s): Anita Anand & William Dalrymple
Guest: Philippe Sands
Release Date: February 13, 2025
Location: Jaipur Literary Festival, Jaipur, India

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Introduction to the Episode

In Episode 229 of Empire, hosts Anita Anand and William Dalrymple delve into the intricate history of Britain's last colony, the Chagos Archipelago. Filmed amidst the bustling Jaipur Literary Festival, the episode sets the stage for an in-depth exploration of imperial legacies, geopolitical maneuvers, and the human cost of colonial policies.

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Setting the Scene: Jaipur Literary Festival

The episode begins with Anand and Dalrymple introducing their special setting at the Jaipur Literary Festival. Amidst the festivities, they announce exclusive bonus content available to Empire Club members, promising listeners deeper insights and additional episodes related to the topic at hand.

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Unveiling the Chagos Archipelago

Anita Anand [02:48]: "We have got the best man with us to unravel it. And when I say the best man, William, we really mean it because he's been in the eye of this storm."

Philippe Sands [04:31]: "It is certainly the case that Empire and Colony in the Indian Ocean have been part of my life since April 2010..."

Philippe Sands, an esteemed international human rights lawyer, joins the discussion to shed light on the often-overlooked Chagos Islands. Sands recounts his unexpected involvement sparked by a phone call from the Prime Minister's office in Mauritius, thrusting him into the heart of the Chagos dispute.

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Historical Context of the Chagos Islands

Philippe Sands [06:21]: "58 islands forming an archipelago in the Indian Ocean to the east of Mauritius..."

The Chagos Archipelago, comprising 58 coral and volcanic atolls, lies strategically between Africa and Asia. Once home to approximately 2,000 inhabitants, predominantly of African Malagasy descent, the islands were under British control from 1814 until Mauritius gained independence in 1968.

William Dalrymple [07:09]: "There are stupas and all sorts of wonderful early Buddhist remains if you go to Mauritius, followed by early Arab traders, followed by the Portuguese."

Dalrymple provides a broad historical overview, highlighting the region's significance as a hub for various maritime powers, including the Portuguese, Dutch, and French, before ultimately becoming a British colony.

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The Road to Independence and the Chagos Split

Philippe Sands [11:23]: "So, you know, I read up. There's the Internet, there's a few books provided. And I went back in historical terms to what had happened after 1814..."

As Mauritius approached independence, tensions arose over the Chagos Archipelago. In November 1965, negotiations at Lancaster House between Mauritian leaders and British Prime Minister Harold Wilson led to a contentious agreement. Under intense pressure, Wilson presented Mauritian leadership with a "frighten them with hope" strategy, coercing consent for the separation of the Chagos Islands from Mauritius.

Philippe Sands [19:43]: "The British say that the Mauritian leadership gave its consent at Lancaster House. The Mauritians will later say, we sort of gave our consent, but it was under duress."

This pivotal moment marked the creation of the British Indian Ocean Territory, excluding the Chagos Archipelago from the newly independent Mauritius. The geopolitical landscape was further complicated by the emerging Cold War tensions, particularly the strategic interests of the United States.

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Geopolitical Significance: The Birth of Diego Garcia

Philippe Sands [16:07]: "Location, location, location. It is equidistant from Africa and Asia..."

Diego Garcia, the largest island in the Chagos Archipelago, emerged as a site of immense geopolitical importance. In the mid-1960s, the United States sought strategic military bases in the Indian Ocean to support operations in Southeast Asia, leading to an agreement with Britain to establish a significant military facility on Diego Garcia.

Philippe Sands [17:19]: "The Chagos archipelago was a coaling station... warships stopping there and they are refueling and stocking up with coal so that they can sail eastwards."

The establishment of the Diego Garcia base necessitated the removal of the existing Chagossian population, setting the stage for one of the most controversial episodes of forced deportations in recent history.

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Forced Deportations and Human Rights Violations

Anita Anand [22:05]: "Oh, so this is the Richard Gifford case where it starts..."

The forced removal of around 2,000 Chagossians between 1968 and 1973 was executed under the guise of transforming Diego Garcia into a military base. Legal manipulations by British authorities reclassified the Chagossians as contract laborers rather than residents, stripping them of their rights and justifying their displacement.

Philippe Sands [23:16]: "...a decision was taken that every person who lived on the Chagos Archipelago was no longer considered to be a resident, but became a contract labourer."

One of the most poignant stories is that of Olivier Bancoq, a four-year-old boy whose family was forcibly removed. His aunt, Lisbee Elyse, recounts the traumatic experience of being told to leave with only a suitcase, witnessing the brutal treatment of their pets, and enduring the heartbreak of losing a child during the journey.

Philippe Sands [25:03]: "They have nowhere to live. And for a lot of them, there is a resentment not only of how they were treated by the British, but then how they were received and not well treated by an independent Mauritius."

The deportations left the Chagossians scattered, primarily relocating to Mauritius and the Seychelles, where they faced poverty, discrimination, and a lack of support from their host nations.

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Legal Battles and International Law

Philippe Sands [20:04]: "The rule on decolonisation is that you can only dismember a part of a colony if the affected population has given its consent."

This legal stipulation became a focal point in the Chagos dispute. The British government's decision to exclude the Chagos Archipelago from Mauritius's independence violated international law, as the consent of the displaced population was neither genuine nor freely given.

Philippe Sands [22:16]: "That's saying, you know, it is absolutely criminal that nobody is concentrating on what Richard Gifford is doing for these people who have been left with nothing."

Richard Gifford, a key figure in the legal battles, spearheaded efforts to secure compensation and the right of return for the Chagossians. However, systemic legal challenges and geopolitical interests hindered meaningful progress for decades.

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Personal Stories and Lasting Impact

Philippe Sands [26:16]: "I have had Chagossians describe to me how they watched their dogs swim after the boat as the boat was lit."

The personal narratives of the Chagossians underscore the profound human impact of colonial policies. Beyond the loss of homeland, the Chagossians endured psychological trauma, loss of community, and ongoing struggles for recognition and justice.

Anita Anand [28:26]: "This is the 60s and 70s, this clearance of people, it's crazy."

These stories highlight the urgent need for historical reckoning and restitution, as the Chagossians continue to seek the return of their ancestral lands and acknowledgment of the injustices they endured.

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The Strategic Importance of Diego Garcia Today

Philippe Sands [16:07]: "It allows a springboard into the South China Seas and those areas. It is seen as vital both for protecting trade routes and military routes."

Diego Garcia remains a crucial military asset for both the United States and the United Kingdom, serving as a strategic base for operations in the Middle East and Asia-Pacific regions. Its location facilitates control over vital maritime routes and provides a pivotal point for military logistics and intelligence.

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Current Developments and Ongoing Disputes

Anita Anand [20:04]: "The British say that the Mauritian leadership gave its consent at Lancaster House. The Mauritians will later say, we sort of gave our consent, but it was under duress."

Recent developments, including discussions between British Prime Minister Keir Starmer and his Mauritian counterpart, reignite debates over the sovereignty of the Chagos Archipelago. The legacy of colonialism, compounded by strategic military interests, continues to complicate efforts to resolve the Chagos dispute.

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Conclusion and Future Episodes

The episode concludes with Anita Anand and William Dalrymple reflecting on the profound injustices faced by the Chagossians and the broader implications of imperial policies on modern geopolitics. They tease upcoming discussions that will delve deeper into World War II's impact on the Chagos Islands and the enduring legacy of colonialism.

Anita Anand [30:54]: "If you are as gripped by Philippe's story of the history of the Chagos Islands as William and I clearly are, you can carry on listening by becoming a member of the Empire Club."

Listeners are encouraged to join the Empire Club for continued exploration and in-depth analysis of the Chagos Archipelago's history and its implications for today's world.

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Notable Quotes

• Philippe Sands [04:31]: "It is certainly the case that Empire and Colony in the Indian Ocean have been part of my life since April 2010..."
• Anita Anand [16:07]: "Location, location, location. It is equidistant from Africa and Asia."
• Philippe Sands [20:04]: "The rule on decolonisation is that you can only dismember a part of a colony if the affected population has given its consent."
• Philippe Sands [22:16]: "That's saying, you know, it is absolutely criminal that nobody is concentrating on what Richard Gifford is doing for these people who have been left with nothing."
• Philippe Sands [26:16]: "I have had Chagossians describe to me how they watched their dogs swim after the boat as the boat was lit."

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Final Thoughts

Episode 229 of Empire offers a compelling narrative that intertwines the historical trajectories of empire, human rights, and geopolitical strategy. Through the poignant testimonies of Philippe Sands and the incisive commentary of Anand and Dalrymple, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the Chagos Archipelago's enduring significance and the unresolved injustices that continue to echo through history.

For those seeking to further engage with this narrative, joining the Empire Club provides access to supplementary materials, bonus episodes, and a community of listeners dedicated to unpacking the complexities of empire and its lasting impacts.

Transcript

[William Durupoul]

If you want access to bonus episodes reading lists for every series of Empire a chat community discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast ad, free listening and a weekly newsletter. Sign up to empire [e-mail].

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[Anita Arnand]

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[William Durupoul]

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[Anita Arnand]

Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. Hello and welcome to Empire with me Anita Arnan and me William Drimple. Just a couple of little things before we start. You are going to hear a little bit of it's not because R2D2 is starring in this episode. We have some drilling in the background, so huge apologies right from the get go. But we are coming to you from the Jaipur Literary Festival in Jaipur, India. One of the most thrilling literature festivals the world has to offer. But they're making it bigger while we're here. Apparently it's not big enough, William. They're building it around us.

[William Durupoul]

We are very ambitious for the festival.

[Anita Arnand]

Well, it would have been nice if you were ambitious after the recording, but you know, it's fine. It's okay. And the other thing I want to tell you, since we have been at Jaipur, we are doing a little bit of something a little bit special for the bonuses we've been in. I think one of the most exciting green rooms I have ever been to and I do this kind of lot, quite a lot. Tripping over talent, tripping over gossip and interest. So we've been grabbing a few people to bring you some very, very special bonus episodes.

[William Durupoul]

So I have no idea what Alita's been up to. I've been on stage running.

[Anita Arnand]

I mean, you've been slightly the director of the festival while the cat's away. I've had such a nice time anyway, so, yes, do, do please become a member of the club if you want to hear all this bonus st. Empirepoduk.com Empirepoduk.com is where you have to go. And let me tell you something, some of it is going to blow your little socks off, I promise. Now, it isn't often that we collide with a news story that is so rooted in our food groups of empire, but it happens and it's happening right now. We're meeting, we're sitting actually here at the Jaipur Literary Festival at a time where just about a day ago, the Prime Minister of Great Britain, Keir Starmer, met with his Mauritian counterpart to discuss the future of a place called the Chagos Islands. Now, you've probably heard this in the news. It's come up again and again, particularly after the inauguration of President Trump, all because of one particular military base in this archipelago of islands, the Chagos Islands called Diego Garcia. What is it all about? You're probably scratching your head because there are a great deal of complexities involving words like treaty, history and imperialism that are all wound up in this. And we have got the best man with us to unravel it. And when I say the best man, William, we really mean it because he's been in the eye of this storm.

[William Durupoul]

He absolutely has. We have with us Philippe Sands, international human rights lawyer, barrister and writer, and.

[Anita Arnand]

Also up to his nostrils in Chagos Islands.

[Philippe Sands]

And he's very happy to be with you on your fabulous podcast, which he's a really regular listener to.

[Anita Arnand]

Aren't you such a nice man? So, yes, Philippe Sans has been up to your nose in Chagos Islands.

[Philippe Sands]

It is certainly the case that Empire and Colony in the Indian Ocean have been part of my life since April 2010, when I was on holiday skiing with my brother on a chairlift when my phone went. And I normally don't look at my phone on a chairlift, but the number was +230. I didn't know what that was. I answered it, fearful of dropping it in the snow 100ft below me.

[Anita Arnand]

Right.

[Philippe Sands]

And the person at the end of the phone said, this is the Prime Minister's office and Mauritius. Would you be willing to speak to the Prime Minister? Now, that's how it began.

[Anita Arnand]

Did you take the call up in the chairlift how can you not take such a call?

[Philippe Sands]

My proudest moment is that while on the phone with the Prime Minister, I managed to remove myself from the chairlift, slide off the chairlift without falling over, holding a pair of skis, holding my ski sticks in one hand, the phone in the other, my brother lifting the barrier, and him starting to talk about a place called Chagos, which, I'm going to be very honest with you, I had never heard of.

[Anita Arnand]

Well, of course, why would you have? It's a teeny archipelago, so people who don't know anything about it. Let's start, and I'm going to come back to your story. Going to start with your story about why you're involved, but just before we get to it.

[Philippe Sands]

And then you said you probably haven't heard of trademark, but you'll know about Diego Garcia. And the penny dropped.

[Anita Arnand]

You see that? I do that sometimes I leap in too soon, and I did that just now. I'm so sorry, Philippe. Honestly, if you had a bad day.

[William Durupoul]

Would I ever criticize you for your face?

[Anita Arnand]

You would in a second. He's just very so. Look, you are utterly forgiven for not knowing about the Chagos Islands. Diego Garcia features in movies about wars and America and everything else. Can you wrap this all up for us? Where is it in the world? How big is it? What is it like? And what is Diego Garcia?

[Philippe Sands]

58 islands forming an archipelago in the Indian Ocean to the east of Mauritius, about a thousand miles to the north of Madagascar, northeast of Madagascar and south of the Maldives, which is the closest other land territory.

[William Durupoul]

And like the Maldives, are they atolls of coral or what are they?

[Philippe Sands]

They are atolls of coral, volcanically created also, and they are presently uninhabited. But until 1968, they were the home to about 2,000 human beings, although that number is contested by some, almost all descendants of enslaved people from Madagascar or Mozambique who worked on coconut plantations for various British and other companies have never.

[William Durupoul]

Brought it up with you guys, but I've long thought that there'd be a very good Empire episode in the whole story of Mauritius and the Maldives, because this is an area which since deepest antiquity has been on the sea routes and which surpasses hand like a sort of like a present at a child's birthday party, at musical chairs, that sort of stuff between successive forces that have controlled the Indian Ocean. So in the case of the Maldives, you have Buddhist missionaries coming first from Ashoka in India, and there's stupas and all sorts of wonderful early Buddhist remains if you go to the Mauritius, followed by early Arab traders, followed by the Portuguese. And it's, I think, the Portuguese that give. Philip, isn't that not right?

[Philippe Sands]

The first Europeans to have written about a place we now know as the Chagos Archipelago were the Portuguese.

[William Durupoul]

And it's named after the Portuguese for the wounds of Christ. Is that right?

[Philippe Sands]

Diego Garcia is named after a Portuguese gentleman. And they held onto it for very little time. There's some suggestion that when they first saw it, they saw three black men in a canoe, but that is contested by others. So maybe there were people there before. Then it became Dutch, then it became French. And in 1814, at the treaty of Paris, the French ceded it to the United Kingdom.

[Anita Arnand]

So I want to unravel this. It's very densely filled with information. So let's just pull it apart.

[William Durupoul]

I want to restore my Portuguese.

[Anita Arnand]

Williams. No, I know you're right. Because Chagos is from Chagas, isn't it? Versus the Chagas, which is the wounds of Christ. So you're absolutely right. But you are right on this issue of people who did live there. I mean, I'm ashamed to say if I'd have taken your call on Ski Lift, I would have a little bit known about the Chagos or Lanes only because there has been a legal case rumbling for ages to try and get compensation for these people who were evicted. I remember talking when I was first a student journalist to a woman called Zabanu Gifford, who wrote sort of books at the time. And she would always tell me, why aren't you covering my husband? Richard? Yeah, just tell us what he was doing. Because she said, you know, it is absolutely criminal that nobody is concentrating on what Richard Gifford is doing for these people who have been left with nothing.

[Philippe Sands]

To be honest, I feel almost a sense of shame that I didn't know about Chagos, because, of course, I immediately read myself in after the call with pm.

[William Durupoul]

Too busy Skig.

[Philippe Sands]

I was too busy doing cases about genocide in the.

[Anita Arnand]

He was a bit busy.

[Philippe Sands]

Croatia. I'm gonna defend. I'm gonna.

[Anita Arnand]

You get him.

[William Durupoul]

Get him.

[Philippe Sands]

Defend myself, William.

[Anita Arnand]

Get him. Philippe.

[Philippe Sands]

I. I had certain things on my plate. Point Vukovar, Srebrenica, Rwanda. But it is true, and I fess up. I felt almost a sense of shame that I'd never heard of Chago. So, of course, why did I feel a sense of shame? Because having read myself in, I realized very quickly there had been litigation in the English courts, brought not by the government of Mauritius, but by a group of Chagossians led by an extraordinary man called Olivier Bancoux, who was born on Perros Banios, one of the islands of the chagos archipelago, about 150 miles from Diego Garcia, and who led the litigation in the English courts quite successfully up to a point that by 2000 he had won. And but for the events of September 11, the attacks in New York and elsewhere, the British government at the time, a Labour government, would have allowed the Chagossians to return to the outer islands of the Chagos Islands, because that's what.

[Anita Arnand]

They were asking for. They were just saying, let us go home.

[Philippe Sands]

At that point, the issue was limited in the English courts, run by a remarkable man called Richard Gifford, to the question of the right of return of the Chagossian population who had been forcibly removed between 1968 and 1973.

[Anita Arnand]

I have to say I hold my hands up because I didn't understand it. It's like, you know, a handful of people wanting to go back to a place I'd never heard of. And I was very little. It was my first kind of gig in journalism. I never did it, but I never saw anyone else do it either. So all of us were kind of in this stew. And then suddenly Jake was Ireland Trump, Britain, Mauritius, China, all of these sort of big players get suddenly involved and we're like, oh, I know an echo of this, but I don't know anything. Now tell me, how did you read up and where did you get to? Very quickly.

[Philippe Sands]

So, you know, I read up. There's the Internet, there's a few books provided. And I went back in historical terms to what had happened after 1814. So the British were the colonial power from 1814 up until Mauritius obtained independence in 1968. But it's the three or four years prior to independence that are crucial for this story.

[Anita Arnand]

So just to clarify where we are with the Chagos Islands. So Britain invades Mauritius, takes the Chagos as part of its territory, doesn't invade Mauritius. Well, what does it do then? It's ceded out by treaty at the.

[William Durupoul]

End of the Napoleon.

[Anita Arnand]

Got it. Okay. So it's kind of the swamp.

[Philippe Sands]

They take it over and Ile de France becomes Mauritius.

[Anita Arnand]

Gotcha.

[Philippe Sands]

The capital remains. Pour Louis. And for the next 154 years, it is a British colony in the Indian Ocean.

[Anita Arnand]

So, Philly, what you said is absolutely right, and you're very right to correct me. It's a peaceful transition. And then there was the abolition of slavery. But there are lots of investigations about how long did it last? Certainly notionally by 1830, they were saying, you know what? We don't do slavery anymore. And there was this whole system of giving compensation to the slave owners, not to any of the enslaved people. So that also is going to.

[Philippe Sands]

And just to say, been over those documents on the UCL archive, and I found examples of slave owners in the territory, the Colony of Mauritius, being paid compensation for the ending of slavery there. One thing that's also very important to explain because it comes important later. The chagos archipelago is 1,000 miles from Mauritius. So what is its relationship? It is treated by the British as a dependency on. Of Mauritius. And so, for example, the way that it works is a magistrate will sail once every three months from Mauritius to the dependency of the Chagos Archipelago and deal with any cases that need to be dealt with. This becomes absolutely crucial 150 years later when the International Court of Justice needs to look at the question of was the Chagos Archipelago really a part of Mauritius?

[Anita Arnand]

Who is in charge? Who has the right to call them?

[Philippe Sands]

The crucial question was, was it really run from Mauritius or was this a fiction?

[Anita Arnand]

Very interesting.

[William Durupoul]

And your conclusion was.

[Philippe Sands]

Well, the conclusion of historians is it was genuinely run as a dependency. And in the British legal texts of the 19th century and the early 20th century, including Second World War and beyond, the Chagos Archipelago is described as a.

[Anita Arnand]

Dependency of Mauritius by the 1900s. And we're talking sort of after. Okay, so people have been given compensation. There's supposedly no slavery, indentured labor. We'll return to that maybe at another time in another legal case. Who knows? You might be involved in that. But by 1900, we're talking about 426 families who live on this archipelago known as Chagos. About 60% of this African Malagasy origin. Malagasy. Just explain what Malagasy means to.

[Philippe Sands]

Malagasy to me means of origin from the island of Madagascar. And that, I have to say, is not a part of the world that I know well. Although, as you may know, Madagascar also has now certain claims in relation to islands that it says were separated unlawfully by France. But that will be for another.

[William Durupoul]

And just to add to the complexity, the ethnic origin of the people of Madagascar is actually from Southeast Asia. And there is an extraordinary migration in about 500 B.C. when the whole bunch of seafarers move all the way from islands like Java and Borneo right across the ocean and end up in Madagascar. So these are a mixture of them and the saves, Remember in our.

[Anita Arnand]

Oh, the piracy. Yes. We have all those enclaves of Madagascar.

[Philippe Sands]

In the pirate kingdom we haven't addressed. Because William reminds me, in this crucial 19th century period, a large population from modern India arrives in the island of Mauritius to work as indentured workers for the British and former French colonial individuals.

[William Durupoul]

And I think they're North Indians, aren't they? They're from the Gangetic plain, from Bihar.

[Philippe Sands]

Yes. And this becomes crucial in terms of geopolitics for today on your point, because the question in the eyes of many Western governments is what is their natural support directed towards? Is it going to be India or is it going to be China? The answer is very clear.

[Anita Arnand]

Leave that in your head for a second because that's going to come up a bit in the second half. But just before we go to the break, we haven't touched on the strategic importance of why anyone should be bothered by this little archipelago. Very pretty little islands made of coral, palm trees, blue sea. Why should anyone care?

[Philippe Sands]

Location, location, location. It is equidistant from Africa and Asia. It provides an opening to what today is called the Indo Pacific region. It allows a springboard into the South China Seas and those areas. It is seen as vital both for protecting trade routes and military routes.

[Anita Arnand]

And that is going to be very important in part two when we talk about a little event called World War II. Join us then. Welcome back. So, yes, a little tease for you just before we went into the break, which is why is the strategic important importance of this everything and everything to the debate that we're having right now and all of these sort of international wranglings that are going on with, you know, Britain saying we'll wait for Donald Trump to read a treaty before we decide to do what we thought we were going to do, which is give the Chagos Islands back to the Mauritians. And it's, it's all very much alive in the news at the moment. But let's go to World War II first, because what the Chagos Islands did at that time is that they were so important strategically, as Philippe said last time, but for fueling warships, coaling.

[Philippe Sands]

The Chagos archipelago was a coaling station. And given the vast distances, I mean, a thousand miles from Mauritius and even more from the African continent, it's the same distance into the Indian Ocean and the Asian battlegrounds. And so warships are stopping there and they are refueling and stocking up with coal so that they can sail eastwards. And when they're coming back from the east, they don't have to sail all the way to the African continent and they can refuel halfway there.

[Anita Arnand]

But at this point, it is just like a little wait station, you know, refuel and wait. It's just time. So there's no such notion of like, Diego Garcia. That's not even a thing that comes a bit later, doesn't it?

[Philippe Sands]

Well, Diego Garcia exists as an island, but it's not a military base. It's a coaling station for refueling, essentially military vessels.

[William Durupoul]

And a British coaling station just permit this?

[Philippe Sands]

Yes, it's a British coaling station.

[Anita Arnand]

So we've got its pivotal importance. Everybody sees it's really very useful. Before the Big Blue starts, to have somewhere that you can refuel. This is an excellent place. It's kind of out of the way and it's handy for us. At what point then do the Americans say, you know what? I'd quite like a bit of that, thanks very much and you're our friends, Britain, let's do a deal on this.

[Philippe Sands]

So the first key date is the summer of 1945, when the United nations is created in San Francisco. And it has a commitment to something that's come to be known as decolonization. The colonial powers agree to end their sort of colonial rule. It takes 20 years for the Mauritians to really get up to speed. By now, there are 20 or 30 independent African countries. Mauritius is not at the forefront, but by the early 1960s they are agitating for independence. And there are a series of meetings between the Mauritian leadership and the British government with demands for independence. There is then a crucial meeting in November 1965 in London at Lancaster House between the Mauritian leadership group, led by a Mr. Ramgoolam, the father of today's Prime Minister, and Harold Wilson, to determine the conditions under which Mauritius will become an independent African state. Mr. Wilson's been given a briefing paper which I and others have called the sort of frighten them with hope paper, because his instruction from his Permanent Secretary is, you must frighten them with hope, Prime Minister.

[Anita Arnand]

He says it in that quote, unquote.

[Philippe Sands]

Yeah, that's.

[Anita Arnand]

That's just nuts.

[Philippe Sands]

Incredible series of words, isn't it? The hope that they will get independence and the fear that they will not if they do not cede to us the Chagos Archipelago and allow us to dismember the colony. Now, this is a problem in international law. Do you want to know what the problem is?

[Anita Arnand]

I absolutely do.

[Philippe Sands]

The rule on decolonisation is that you can only dismember a part of a colony if the affected population has given its consent. The British say that the Mauritian leadership gave its consent at Lancaster House. The Mauritians will later say, we sort of gave our consent, but it was under duress.

[Anita Arnand]

So hang on a minute. Is that in effect saying. We said it, but our fingers were crossed under the table. I mean, is that clear? Not our fingers.

[Philippe Sands]

No. He forced us. He told us that if we didn't accept, accept this, we wouldn't get independence. So we had no choice.

[Anita Arnand]

Beats hope. Okay. Yes, gotcha.

[Philippe Sands]

So they consent the British immediately, like a few days later, pass an ordering council creating a new and the last British colony to be created. The British Indian Ocean territory formerly known as the Chagos Archipelago, formerly dependency of Mauritius.

[William Durupoul]

And this is 1960, the year I was born.

[Philippe Sands]

The last colony looked good.

[Anita Arnand]

You look good.

[Philippe Sands]

Oh yes, you are coincident with the last British colony ever created.

[Anita Arnand]

Do people call it Biot? For sure it's biot. Yeah.

[Philippe Sands]

Three years later.

[Anita Arnand]

Yeah.

[Philippe Sands]

They gained independence in March 1968 without the Chagos archipelago. And the reason the British have held on to the Chagos Archipelago is not that they have a particular desire to hold on to it or any part of it. But the Americans have a new project starting in 1964, 65, to create a.

[William Durupoul]

This is mid Vietnam War.

[Philippe Sands]

Yeah, you've understood. To create a series of military bases or listening stations in far flung strategic but tiny islands. And they identify Diego Garcia, One of the 58 islands of the Chagos Archipelago as their preferred destination. And they say to the British, we want it and we want it cleared of any population.

[Anita Arnand]

Oh, so this is the, the Richard Gifford case where it starts. So his case has always been, is that there were people there who were. Who were forced. They weren't asked, they were made.

[Philippe Sands]

It gets even more complicated, right. The Americans say, we don't care about the other islands, the population can stay there, but we want everyone off Diego Garcia. The British then have a problem under international law. They have understood and we've got the legal advice from the archives in which this is made clear. You have to obtain the consent of the affected population. It was understood that the affected population of Diego Garcia would not give its consent. It was understood that the affected population of all the other islands, a total of maybe up to 1800, 2000 people, people would not give their consent. So the British have an internal legal debate and the argument that prevails is to determine that there is no population on any part of the Chagos archipelago which needs to give its consent. They determine in London that every person living on the Chagos Archipelago is a contract labourer, not a resident.

[Anita Arnand]

So they take all of their rights away, just like that, at a stress.

[William Durupoul]

Who comes up with this legal solution? I mean, is it some lawyer?

[Philippe Sands]

A lawyer named Tony Ost, who I knew very well. He was opposed by another lawyer called Henry Darwin, who said, this is wrong. Henry Darwin did not prevail. Tony Ost prevailed and the consequence was at a stroke, a decision was taken that every person who lived on the Chagos Archipelago was no longer considered to be a resident, but became a contract labour. One of the contract laborers was a four year old boy called Olivier Bonco. And Olivier Bonco never forgot what was done to him.

[Anita Arnand]

And Olivier Bonker is a very important name because we kind of started talking about him with the legal case at the start, because he was the test case, or at least the spearhead of the case. That's saying, you know what, you can't do this to people. You can't suddenly make them stateless.

[William Durupoul]

And just to be completely clear, here there's 2,000 people scattered between these various different islands. They are a mixed population. Some are ex slaves, some are sort of indigenous.

[Philippe Sands]

None are ex slaves. They are all descendant of predecessor slaves, their grandparents, their great grandparents or whoever. The question of indigenous is very complex. They argue, some of them, that they are an indigenous community, but that is contested by others, including the Mauritian government.

[Anita Arnand]

Today you've spent time, I mean, obviously you've spent time here and you've talked to people. What did it do to them? You know, to be told from a place, a court far away, people in strange wigs and different languages telling them that their history wasn't real, their stories weren't right, their grandparents didn't matter, and a 4 year old child could be a laborer who could be deported at any moment.

[Philippe Sands]

I'll give you one story that for me has been the most touching. Olivier Bancroft's aunt, lisbee Elyse, aged 20 in 1973, on 29 April that year, as she described to me, and she has a good memory, she was a witness later in the proceedings at the International Court of Justice. She said, I saw something I'd never seen before on my island, Peros Banyos, which is also where Olivier Banco is from. I saw a white man and he came up to me and he said, you island is being closed. You will leave tomorrow with one suitcase and nothing else. So she then gathers her belongings. They are all removed, 400 or so people. The next day on a boat called the Nordwehr, they are sailed to Mauritius.

[Anita Arnand]

Are we talking? When you say removed, like at gunpoint, soldiers come and say, right, march up the gang Tank you.

[William Durupoul]

Are there resistance? Do they throw stones?

[Philippe Sands]

There's no resistance. They're a community that is particularly attached to their dogs. They want to take their dogs. The British won't allow them to take their dogs. They first try killing them with strychnine. They then try shooting them.

[Anita Arnand]

Who? The British do the British.

[Philippe Sands]

And they then end up gassing them. And they witness the Chagossians, witness all the pets. I have had Chagossians describe to me how they watched their dogs swim after the boat as the boat was lit.

[Anita Arnand]

I don't know why. That makes my heart break when you.

[Philippe Sands]

Ask how they were. They're utterly traumatized. I mean, this was, you know, 50 plus years ago. They still talk about it.

[William Durupoul]

What kind of life are they living there? Are they small farmers or what's going on?

[Philippe Sands]

They are living a subsistence life looking after chickens and coconut, coconut plants and vegetables and fish. They are fantastic fishermen. And this I've seen for myself going back with them. And they are able to catch things extraordinarily easily in ways that others can.

[William Durupoul]

And this is a place which, in a different shake of the dice, if America had not insisted on this, if Harold Wilson had not just been prepared to wipe away their rights, would in time presumably have become like the Maldives, a tourist destination.

[Philippe Sands]

Absolutely. And, well, someone would have been very rich. I don't quite know who. But in terms of the impact on them, remember that the Americans have basically said we only want Diego Garcia cleared. It is the British legal logic, my own community, that causes everyone to be cleared out. So they are then dispersed to various parts of the world. Most of them go to Mauritius, some go to Seychelles.

[William Durupoul]

And do the Mauritians give them houses and land or are they living in a shanty town?

[Anita Arnand]

It's appalling. It's appalling.

[Philippe Sands]

Imagine a country that has become independent just three, four, five years later. They are utterly dependent on the export of one commodity to the former colonial power, and that is sugar. So they are impecunious. These folk describe to me how they arrive in the port of Port Louis. There is no one to meet them, there is no one to look after them. They have no money, they have no home, they have nowhere to live. And for a lot of them, there is a resentment not only of how they were treated by the British, but then how they were received and not well treated by an independent Mauritius. It's a very complex story.

[Anita Arnand]

And again, I just want to remind people this is not that long ago we're talking about from sort of the mid-1960s to the early 1970s, this clearance of people, it's crazy.

[Philippe Sands]

In my lifetime, in my lifetime. And that's why I come back to the sense of shame. How could it be that I lived through this, Never read about this in the newspapers, never saw anything about it on the telly. Never. Never saw. Was talked about it in history lessons at school. And even worse, when I studied law for the first time, 1979 to 1983, no one talked to us about these kinds of things.

[William Durupoul]

One thing we haven't mentioned is numbers. How many people are on this boat?

[Philippe Sands]

Well, on the boat from Perros Banyos to Mauritius, it was about 400 people. But again, back to Liz Bielysee, the aunt of Olivier Boncou. All the black people were kept in the hold of the boat. All the white people were upstairs.

[Anita Arnand]

No.

[Philippe Sands]

Yes.

[Anita Arnand]

No, no, no.

[Philippe Sands]

Yes, yes, yes. She describes in her pleadings before the International Court of Justice that they felt they were treated like slaves. She was so traumatized that she didn't realize she was pregnant, but she lost a child during the trip. And the trauma. They're dignified community, but a traumatized community still today.

[Anita Arnand]

I mean, this is during the 60s. The Beatles into, you know, glam rock. I mean, just to give it cont. This is what the world looks like.

[William Durupoul]

The years of the Doors first album. Just to put this.

[Anita Arnand]

Oh, thank God for you. Thank God, thank God. It was the one thing I was searching for. But yeah, very good.

[William Durupoul]

Come on, baby, Light by fire.

[Anita Arnand]

Right.

[William Durupoul]

Number one in LA at this point.

[Anita Arnand]

Oh, my goodness.

[William Durupoul]

Again, the numbers. 400 on the boat. You said earlier that the. The entire archipelago. The numbers are disputed.

[Philippe Sands]

2000 max.

[William Durupoul]

Yeah.

[Philippe Sands]

I mean, some say 1200. I think it's around just under 2000 people.

[Anita Arnand]

Can I just say, just. Just as we. We're going to do another episode. Of course we are. We've just scratched the surface. But honestly, when Philippe said that about the way in which the passengers were kept, all doors, and there are three of us here, hit the floor, all of them. One would think that an army of keen lawyers would want to step forward and get involved. This is the 60s and 70s, for God's sake. But actually, we're going to talk about the one who did step forward. It was a lot later, but he is the one who is sitting on the sofa with us here at Jaipur. We talk about how Philippe Sands got involved in the Chagos Islands and the cause of those people who live there. Join us then. Till then, goodbye from me, Anita Arnand.

[William Durupoul]

Goodbye from me, William Durupoul.

[Philippe Sands]

And goodbye from me.

[Anita Arnand]

If you are as gripped by Philippe's story of the history of the Chagos Islands as William and I clearly are, you can carry on listening by becoming a member of the Empire Club. So come on, be part of the fam. All you have to do is sign up. Empirepoduk.com empirepoduk. Com.